AMURIKA MAFIA - Game Over
- Gorgon
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Ooooh boy, McCarthyism II: The Reckoning! Remember, just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
On that note ...
VOTE: SaintKerrigan
Only player here I've played with before, and not too long ago either.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 8, Nachomamma8 wrote:chamber2 (John F. Kennedy) is mod confirmed to be aligned with the town.
Looks like we have an innocent child then.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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You mean the innocent child thing? Yeah, if I hadn't thought it worth pointing out I probably wouldn't have done so. It might not be a groundbreaking revelation but at least it was something to comment on at a very early stage in the game; something that might provoke some sort of reaction, and it did. I don't remember ever being in a game with an innocent child either, so it's a novelty to me.
Anyway, since you seem to have voted me for it I would like to hear how that post of mine is incompatible with town.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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Heck, maybe it's not even an innocent child but some other similar mechanism that someone might have some ideas about. Or whatever. I fail to see how prompting possible conversation about this is suspect.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 23, CryoChemist wrote:It just doesn't add up.
-He Voted Gorgon b/c his Vote was...odd? We call bs. p9 is no more suspicious than p12.
I think it's pretty clear from the context that he meant to say post, not vote. That is, he confirms that he was talking about the innocent child comment. So it's a simple slipup. I was a little confused about this at first but I think there's no way he could really have been talking about my vote.
In post 23, CryoChemist wrote:-We've played in many many games around here and we still had to look up "Innocent Child". We don't think it's even remotely "self-evident".
I agree with this; I think that announcement is worth discussing which is, again, why I brought it up.
In post 23, CryoChemist wrote:-Pressure Votes carry 0 merit when you immediately say "I don't think he's Scum" and cave at the 1st sign of resistance calling it a page1 pressure Vote.
Well to be fair, he didn't say he didn't think I was scum, he said he doesn'tnecessarilythink I'm scum, but it's still kind of weird to bring this up when you're putting pressure. When you're doing that I think it's quite okay and even necessary to be pretty emphatic, otherwise the pressure is, yeah, lessened.
All this said, I'm not sure Bulb deserves my vote right now. Although his stated eagerness to get out of RVS could be a case of a manufactured "Look at me I'm a scumhunter!", and his haste to explain that he doesn't necessarily think I'm scum is a bit apologetic, something about his explanation of his motives reads genuine to me. Maybe it plays a part that I voted for a player early in my last game for the "Stated eagerness to scumhunt"-scumtell and he turned out to be town, and very good town at that.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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Yeah ... seems I was on the money there. Maybe I should just let people defend themselves though. I still find it very hard to resist doing it when I feel the defense is obvious.
Anyway, I just have to comment on this since no one else has so far:
In post 19, chamber2 wrote:I hate my role.
Okaaay ... but you still want to play I hope? It doesn't do much good to have a confirmed innocent if he's not active.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 41, chamber2 wrote:Why did you feel the need to comment on this?
Maybe because your post contained no comment on the goings on in this game nor a vote, and it's easy to read from it a certain reluctance to participate? So I felt someone had to urge you to participate.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 37, CryoChemist wrote:Maybe because we think your actions thus far are scummy contradictions of themselves?
Yeah, contradictions are what I am seeing as well, but it's more contradictions between words and actions. He says he doesn't mind being wagoned, yet questions you as to your motives for keeping your vote on him while doing no real hunting of his own since you voted him, which he has stated he wants to do. His vote is still on me, yet he's not commenting on me and not looking for any other suspects either. Maybe his questioning you is supposed to constitute hunting but if that's the case, it doesn't really come off as such. More like defense.
I'm good wagoning him now, especially as I don't see anything else that's nearly as votable in this game so far.
VOTE: Bulbazak
That's L-2, if I count correctly and if joel's vote counts.
Speaking of joel I agree that his vote was weird, especially the 'sorry' part. Peregrine's vote was also not exactly well-reasoned, but he seems a little terse in general so far.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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As a perfectionist I think I can assure you that pretty much nobody holds me to a higher standard than I hold myself. But oh well, what's done is done and there's no harm done I guess.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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Ugh, I'm sick today and have mostly stayed in bed until now, but thankfully there are fewer posts waiting for me than I expected. I still hate having to catch up. First things first, answering this post ...
I have seen people get asked this before. Usually people just answer 'No' and even add 'Are you?', but this is the first time I remember seeing a reaction like this.
In post 60, Bulbazak wrote:I had not commented on anything else, because I was away.
I was referring to the actual posts that you had made; they were just questions for Cryo about his reasons for voting you. Maybe you were going to comment on something else later, but I couldn't have known that for sure. I should perhaps have given you time to see how you reacted to your wagon before adding my vote, but I was online and it seemed to be a good call at the time. The vote I had in play was random and I thought it was high time I voted for some substantial reason.
In post 60, Bulbazak wrote:I had not unvoted you, because I saw no reason to, and I wanted to see who else would latch on to my vote.
Fair enough.
In post 60, Bulbazak wrote:The reason I questioned Cryo's vote on me was to see whether he had a legit case for me being scum, or whether he decided to add a third vote to a wagon when the slightest thing that could be conceived as scummy appeared. Hint: One of those is scummy. The other is not.
Also fair enough.
In post 60, Bulbazak wrote:And you're willing to put a wagon at L-2 for hardly any reason at all on the first day of play? Why would you want the day to be over so fast? Because that will only lead to a quicklynch, and leave town at -2.
I don't think there was 'hardly any reason'. I think I had some good reasons. And my motive was definitely not to end the day, hence I made it clear that this was L-2 (although it was really probably L-1 after all; I wouldn't have voted if I had counted correctly), expecting that no one would add another vote. People get put at L-2 all the time without it leading to a quicklynch, even early in the game; it's part of the game. L-1 is more serious though and a sustained L-1 pretty much means that the wagoned player is being asked to claim. But L-2 is just a pretty decent amount of pressure, and you had indicated yourself that you didn't mind being wagoned.
In post 60, Bulbazak wrote:Add in the comment on Joel's scumminess, and I'm definitely not moving my vote now.
If I read you correctly, me commenting on joel's jump on your wagon is all the more reason for you to keep your vote on me ... why?I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 62, SaintKerrigan wrote:Ugh, joel reminds me way too much of a certain scum newb that I misread as town in my last game. I kept attributing the "scumminess" of that player as "newbie mistakes" and would have paid for it if the most of the town hadn't disagreed with me.
As I was in that game as well, I have to sayexactly. In fact it's eerily similar; joel has seemingly played on another site where the playstyle is completely different than here, and people are already calling him a VI. The VI/scum debate occupied a huge part of D1 in that game. Here is a link to the game, for those who are interested.
I think the lesson learned from it is that scumminess should never be ignored, and objectively speaking joel has done some scummy things, such as backing away from his votes when people question them. But he's at L-2 already by my count and there's no reason to go for L-1 yet.
I do find this interesting though:
In post 104, joelsdaman1 wrote:I honestly didn't even notice Bulb FoS me. That does change my thinking a little.
UNVOTE: unvote
I need to think about it more. But for now I'm not happy with Bulb or SK - so watch out.
So the fact that both SK and Bulb FoS'd you gives you reason to reconsider your vote on SK, but you're still 'not happy' with either of them? How does this compute? And what exactly do you need to think about?
And regarding this ...
In post 107, joelsdaman1 wrote:WIFOM?
You clearly did not read what I said. Using one word to describe what I wrote - then not answering my question. Very lazy - actually read it this time.
I'm not sure whether you're asking what WIFOM means, but just to be clear, WIFOM is a very commonly applied term on this site, in many contexts. It's often used to debunk reasoning such as "If I were scum, there's no way I would have done X," since that person could easily be scum who did X just because it's so un-scummy, in order to point it out later. That said, I am actually not sure how it's supposed to apply to your play and would like to hear more from Om regarding that.
And joel, there's certainly no reason for you to reveal your role so early; you should keep it to yourself for now. Mostly only when the town consensus is that someone should reveal it in order to possibly avoid being lynched should anyone reveal their role D1. There are other circumstances that make it a good idea to reveal your role that early, but they are pretty rare. If youreallythink that town would benefit from knowing your role you can consider revealing it, but if you're unsure you should err on the side of caution.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 91, chamber2 wrote:This day sure is progressing nicely.
Okay, now I'mreallystarting to think that the reason you hate your role is that it's crippled in some way, such as you not being allowed to vote. Is that the case?I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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Okay, catchup again, starting with Bulb.
In post 112, Bulbazak wrote:I didn't mind being wagoned, because I felt I could gain information based on who jumped on my wagon and why.
Yet again, fair enough, but since we are on this subject my vote on you was partly to gain information. That's what pressure is for after all. As I stated before though, it may be that my vote was redundant since you already were under plenty of pressure without having gotten a chance to comment on it. I will concede as much.
In post 112, Bulbazak wrote:Due to the speed by which my wagon built up, I have a hard time believing that it was completely town driven.
It's a nice working theory but not completely solid IMO. I have seen completely town-driven wagons build up pretty fast too. Anyway, I think it would be more protown (not to mention consistent with your words) for you to consider all the players that joined your wagon, but there are some that you haven't even commented on.
In post 112, Bulbazak wrote:I didn't like your willingness to jump on my wagon so quickly for what I believe is weak reasoning, therefore I have not been able to rule you out. If you'd like to explain your reasoning better, please go ahead. The sooner I can rule out suspects, the better.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'so quickly'. I could have voted for you earlier but I decided to wait and see, since I was pretty conflicted on you. When I saw how you reacted to Cryo's pressure on you I felt less conflicted. And my vote was definitely not quick as in early on the wagon, it was a very late addition to it.
I already stated my reasons for voting you in my vote post, although I must admit that given your answers to my prodding and your play since my vote they have become somewhat redundant - but I still feel they were valid at the time. But to reiterate I found your actions to be inconsistent with your words, mainly in that despite your claimed eagerness to hunt you didn't seem to be hunting, and despite your claimed willingness to be wagoned you were still questioning Cryo's vote.
Also, this ruling out suspects talk is weird. What would be the criteria for that, exactly?
In post 112, Bulbazak wrote:I was suspicious of your motives for voting me. You then follow that up by commenting on the scumminess of another player whose scumminess had already been pointed out. I was having a hard time reconciling both of those actions with a town mindset.
Okay ... agreeing with other players can definitely be a scumtell but town still do it all the time as well. It's only if it becomes a definite pattern that it's notable, IMO - and as with anything else context is important. In this case I probably would have commented on joel's vote even if nobody else had done so as being apologetic about your vote is a scumtell in my book. How was this particular agreement not town?I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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I had to go out to lunch. Had a hard time taking a break from this game but I guess you gotta eat sometime. There's a lot of stuff to comment on and many elements of this game are giving me a headache at the moment, but let's try to break it down a little. Next, Hiraki's long post, which contains a few things that are quite worthy of comment.
In post 120, Hiraki wrote:
This isn't like a "ha, found you scum thing"Gorgon wrote:Anyway, since you seem to have voted me for it I would like to hear how that post of mine is incompatible with town.
But you're certainly leaning like it is.
It was a vote followed up with a question concerning my play, and gut told me that it was a somewhat serious accusation rather than just randomness. Bulb's later comments on the matter then confirmed that, so especially in retrospect I think my take on that vote of his was on the money.
In post 120, Hiraki wrote:
How is this scummy at all? This just means he's voting badly.CyroNudist wrote:-Pressure Votes carry 0 merit when you immediately say "I don't think he's Scum" and cave at the 1st sign of resistance calling it a page1 pressure Vote.
Voting badly IS scummy. I guess one can excuse it with by saying that the person doing it is just VI/noob, but again, referring to the game I just finished with SK, it's not a foolproof defense at all.
In post 120, Hiraki wrote:
Could've sworn you were probing for town reads. Oh well.SK wrote:Because that was a pretty scummy response to some very light probing.
I mean if someone else cut your finger and you did that I'd be happy. But Joel did it.
He seriously called you out to fight and you just shot a gun towards his head. Shame.
Okay ... SK FoS'd Joel, then Joel voted SK, and SK upgraded his FoS to a vote due to OMGUS. It's escalation, but SK certainly didn't escalate it beyond what joel had already escalated it to. How is Joel's vote on SK 'calling him out to fight' while SK's vote on Joel is 'shooting a gun towards his head'?
In post 120, Hiraki wrote:Joel gives you a source and what do you do? Do you check to see if it's credible?
No, I haven't checked out that forum yet, but I find no real reason to believe that joel is lying about it or misrepresenting what goes on there when he knows that this is in theory easy to check, and if it doesn't check out he will be in hot water. And you know what? In the oft-mentioned game I was just finishing, where a first time player here from another forum got into trouble D1 and ended up getting lynched and flipped scum, I never did bother to check out his forum at all. Other players did though, and the results of that were decidedly mixed. I didn't do much meta analysis at all in that game, come to think of it, but I think my reads were still pretty good. I think I'm becoming somewhat anti-meta, both because it's work enough to read the current game without trudging through meta, and because meta is a double-edged sword that can muddy the waters just as much as clear them up. The current game is the current game, and I think it's very easy to get a good picture of each player as the game progresses without checking their backgrounds. The only time I did dip a little into meta in that game was when the game was maturing and there were fewer players left to focus on and more incentive to clarify the reads.
In post 120, Hiraki wrote:
FFFFFFFFFF---Bulbazak wrote:That being said, I'm not ready to believe that Joel is a VI just yet, mainly because of how willing he is to shift suspicion onto almost anybody else.
Oh yes, this 'he's shifting suspicion onto almost everyone else' is a classic scum line as far as I'm concerned. Especially (as is usually the case) when it's not really true. As in this case, as far as I can tell. Say what you will about joel's play, but I don't think that's a fair description of it.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 176, joelsdaman1 wrote:... you and SK are just trying to find some scum to lynch.
You mean 'you and Cryo', right?
And while I'm replying to this post ...
In post 176, joelsdaman1 wrote:Also, does anyone else find it extremely tedious to question the innocent child? It's a mega waste of time, right?
Depends on what he's being questioned about. It's never a waste of time to encourage people to stay active and use their vote, IMO.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 169, Om wrote:In post 110, Gorgon wrote: That said, I am actually not sure how it's supposed to apply to your play and would like to hear more from Om regarding that.
In post 104, joelsdaman1 wrote:The reason I suspect SK is because he/she got really defensive and freaked out when I put pressure on her. Then again, so did I, so perhaps we're all town, and those that are lurking are mafia. That's usually how it turns out.
Ah. I didn't spot this as WIFOM myself, just as a statement of opinion, but yes it is pretty WIFOM-y, although indirectly. "Mafia usually lurk, I'm not lurking, hence I'm not mafia." What's most interesting about this is that Joel hasn't followed up on this theory at all. I would have thought that a player with this opinion would look at the lurkers to find scum among them, but so far Joel has been more occupied with ... other concerns.
In post 214, ArcAngel9 wrote:Anyone doesn't meet your expectations doesn't make them Anti town. not everyone play as you want to them.
Anti-town is not necessarily the same as scum. Anti-town just means bad for town, and I think that there are quite a few things that are objectively bad for town, rather than just being a matter of opinion. Joel's bet proposition is a good example. Just the self-vote aspect of it is bad for town; self-votes are never good for town. And even if he is town, he is asking that his certainty about Cryo being scum should override all other concerns. It's rather hypocritical that he accuses Cryo of trying to be town leader, while his proposition is itself an attempt to lead the town. Maybe it's just supposed to be some sort of gambit to get a reaction from Cryo, though, but I'm not sure what that would be.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 232, Bulbazak wrote:How is voting badly scummy? Scum will make bad votes or votes that they know are not true, but that doesn't mean ALL bad votes are scummy. I've seen many town players make what would be considered bad votes, simply because they believed in what they were saying at the time. I've also seen town players with a bad vote or reason to vote actually hit scum. Bad votes by themselves ARE NOT inherently scummy. This is an example of the HBA fallacy.
Good point, I guess the phrasing was just inaccurate. Voting badlyin a scummy wayis scummy, and cannot be excused so easily by appealing to VI/noob. In Joel's case I think his bad votes so far are leaning scummy. His initial vote on you was apologetic, his no lynch vote was because he didn't want to look scummy (as he explained in his next post), his SK vote was OMGUS, and his unvote was not very well explained IMO and can easily be seen as appeasment.
Well, first of all I don't really need to explain this in the context of your quoted comment on Joel's play in your #113, as 3/5 of those joel posts were made after that post. The issue of whether that comment is a fair description of Joel's play can only really hinge on the posts he had made so far. And even so, it's clear from those posts that he has only pointed fingers on a select number of players, not 'almost anybody else'.
In post 232, Bulbazak wrote:To me that's him deflecting suspicion by saying, "You guys find me scummy? What about these guys? They're way scummier than I am!" That's the main reason my scumdar is going crazy on Joel's posts.
Regarding the last post, it also reminds me of another game I read where a similar tactic was used. Guess what, the noob flipped scum.
This is a much fairer description of Joel's play, though, and I agree with it.
~~~
So, the only issue I really have with Bulb's last response is how he used posts that Joel made after his (Bulb's) comment on his play to explain that comment, but I guess it's not necessarily scum motivated. It's a bit too blatant as a scum misrep tactic, IMO. Much as he has liked my responses, I have liked his, so I think the mutual pressure has been very beneficial. I'm leaning somewhat town on Bulb now, and his wagon has long since collapsed anyway, so I think it's pretty pointless for me to keep my vote on him.
UNVOTE:
Joel is an obvious vote candidate, but is still at L-2 and thus under plenty of pressure already, and besides, I think it would be useful to just step back a bit and reread.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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I had to look that up on the Wiki and I assume you mean Mastermind of Sin. No I'm not, but I remember him from back in the day before I had my burnout and left the site for a few years. He was the one with the Nibbler avatar, right? The reason I have a Nibbler face is that some mod was playing around with putting Nibbler faces on players in reference to MoS, and I took it as something of an honorific to get one. I considered changing back to my original avatar when I rejoined the site but eventually decided to keep it as it is.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 240, Om wrote:In post 233, Gorgon wrote:Ah. I didn't spot this as WIFOM myself, just as a statement of opinion, but yes it is pretty WIFOM-y, although indirectly. "Mafia usually lurk, I'm not lurking, hence I'm not mafia." What's most interesting about this is that Joel hasn't followed up on this theory at all. I would have thought that a player with this opinion would look at the lurkers to find scum among them, but so far Joel has been more occupied with ... other concerns.
So, are you saying he is scum or not? Who is your scum read?
You just unvoted. I'm not particularly fan of the 'point fingers but don't vote thought process'.
I think that anyone reading my posts would not miss the fact that I find Joel pretty scummy, and to make it emphatic I do find it scummy that he is not looking for scum among the lurkers. And this sums up the reason why I didn't vote him pretty clearly, IMHO:
In post 234, Gorgon wrote:Joel is an obvious vote candidate, but is still at L-2 and thus under plenty of pressure already, and besides, I think it would be useful to just step back a bit and reread.
I might vote him later if he doesn't get his act together, but I find no reason to do it just yet. This would probably amount to forcing a claim which I don't think is called for at this point in the game. Deadline is still about three weeks away.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 251, Om wrote:Scum gives better things to read when they are at L-1.
That's disputable. First time I've heard this theory too although it does make some sense. But in this particular context Joel has indicated keenness to claim his role already, so I think it's pretty likely that this might be his reaction to additional pressure right now. I'm not sure what else it would be likely to prompt him to do that he hasn't done already. Would you like him to claim now or not?
Also, this seems to be assuming that Joel is scum. How does the theory apply to town?
In post 251, Om wrote:If someone quick hammers, we have someone to ask better things on D2.
True, but the day will be ended pretty early which is bad for town, especially if Joel is town.
In post 251, Om wrote:Link me your last town and scum flipped game.
Last town flipped game is easy. In fact I already linked to it, but since you ask, here it is again.
Last scum flipped game is less easy as I had to dig through archives to find it. The way the threads have been closed means that they are not always in correct time order, but I think this is the last game where I played a scum role. I flaked out of it though. I think this is my last full scum game.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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I've been pretty busy and didn't even take the time to check the game, and wow there's a lot of new content to go through. I've skimmed over it but unfortunately don't have much time to comment as I need to go out soon, so this post is more of a prod dodge than anything else.
A quick note to Om though; I'm not sure what more you want from me regarding the L-1 issue. I think I've stated my case plainly enough.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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I just went over Bulb's ISO and I'm not really seeing how he is scummy towards joel. Also, Joel not FoS'ing him but FoS'ing SK is a somewhat plausible but still pretty circumstantial case.
I find Om to be more suspicious. He voted joel in his second post and never changed that vote. In fact he never seemed to express any reservations about joel being scum and even went so far as question those who did. Rereading him after the scum flip gives me the distinct feeling that he was preemptively trying to make those who were unsure about joel's alignment suspicious, because he knew joel was scum and was riding hard for towncred.
For instance, when I asked him how his theory about scum giving more information when put at L-1 applies to town, this was his response:
In post 293, Om wrote:That's moot point and irrelevant since we both have him pegged as scum and we wont be getting someone we think is town to L-1 in first place.
No room for anything but black and white there. I can't say I really had joel 'pegged' as scum although I found him to be scummy. Big difference. At the time I felt Om was possibly trying to set me up there, and the fact that joel flipped scum strengthens that feeling.
It's a pity he's not here to explain this though, and I will wait for his replacement out of courtesy before voting - but he is definitely my top suspect at the moment.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 384, CryoChemist wrote:
Damn it SK, do this!!! You don't even have to worry about the whole 'regardless of joel's alignment' bullshit anymore.In post 309, SaintKerrigan wrote:I know I said earlier that I didn't see anything wrong with what Dr. Black has posted, but now that I've gone back and looked again, he's hardly said anything except for justification for joining the Joel wagon. It looks bad regardless of Joel's alignment.
Why is this still relevant? We now know that the guy flaked so the fact that he didn't say anything after joining the joel wagon is null IMO. We can't pinpoint the exact time when he stopped following the game, right? It might pretty easily have been pretty soon after his last post.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 397, goodmorning wrote:I'm looking hard at post 298 right now, and so
Vote: Jason
That slot is Scum.
But 298 is a Cryo post that's not very game-relevant?I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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Yeah, I see where you're going now. Your argument yesterday was:
In post 307, goodmorning wrote:This post assumes AA9 is Town because joels is Scum.
If you don't understand what's wrong with this argument, I can't even begin to headdesk fast enough.
Also - taking strong stances is not unique to Town. Scum do it quite often, actually.
This is greatly strengthened by the fact that joel flipped scum and AA9 flipped town, IMO. I can easily see Om as defending AA9 on the basis that he knew full well that she was town.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 409, SaintKerrigan wrote:Hiraki pretty much did the same thing, except he went the other way on joel's alignment. What makes Om's behavior scummy and not Hiraki's?
I've never said that behavior of Hiraki's is not scummy, but since you mention it I find his arrogant, yet somewhat relaxed and confident attitute to be townish. It's a gut read though but I've found that my gut reads are usually pretty reliable. With Om I had a gut feeling pretty much throughout my entire L-1 exchange with him that something was up.
In post 425, Hiraki wrote:
It reeks of experienced trying to look noobie.SK wrote:This is null stupid no matter what Bulb's alignment is.
Have you ever seen scum try to pull something like that? I sure haven't, to my knowledge.
In post 427, Bulbazak wrote:While we're waiting, I want to know why everyone had such a strong town read on Om, because personally I don't see it.
Well I don't for one, and I'm not seeing any real defense for Om/Jason being town. His defenders seem to be mostly calling null on him.
In post 442, CryoChemist wrote:Our previous reasons pointing DB did and still do apply ...
Why? I gave a reason for doubting that they are in #395, care to address it?
In post 469, Konowa wrote:In other news, the NK makes sense now. gm wouldn't be able to use this arguement otherwise.
But the argument was already there before the NK; the NK only adds to the case but is not at all necessary for it. The joel flip alone strengthens the case and as gm explained, killing AA9 straight away just for that one case is plain stupid and therefore implausible.
Regarding Joel I find his explanation of Om's reads to be somewhat plausible, especially after rereading #297 thoroughly. Om did provide reasons for his townread on AA9 that are not really that far-fetched.
However, what started the discussion about that townread was this:
In post 293, Om wrote:And we are all looking at AaC9 now and I see a town there, so why is your vote still on her?
This does really read like Om trying to paint gm as suspect for voting AA9 (unlike Om himself, who potentially gains towncred for taking a strong stance on AA9, which he explicitly says is townish in #297, and a correct read at that), much like I felt he was trying to paint me as suspect for refraining from voting joel when he was at L-2 and himself as being correct in this matter. So I'm going to go with my gut here and
VOTE: JasonWazzaI want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 478, JasonWazza wrote:How was the argument there before the NK regardless of any flip, having a town read on someone isn't scummy, you say yourself that he provided reasons SO HOW DOES IT COME FROM SCUM?
The argument was (in gm's #307), and is, that Om was sure enough of his scum read on Joel to start assuming that AA9 was town on the basis of that (he states this explicitly in #308)- and even if he had some plausible reasons for his townread this is still something that can be faked by scum. Call it circumstantial if you will but his sureness in his reads feels somewhat contrived to me.
In post 478, JasonWazza wrote:From now on everyone that has any solid reads are scum, wait no that makes no fucking sense *facepalm*
That's just strawmanning instead of addressing the actual case.
In post 478, JasonWazza wrote:how is this painting anyone as suspect?
He is asking why someone is voting his town read, he didn't call gm scum, he was asking for a case on her OBVIOUSLY, and again for the joel thing, he is asking for reasoning not to vote joel, not everything is trying to get suspicion on people, so everyone pull the rod out your asses, take a de-ego pill, and quit pretending like you are all auto-town and that anything asked to you is trying to call you scum.
Alright, I concede that Om wasn't explicitly implying gm was scummy so maybe me reading that into his words is confirmation bias (although I note on further reading that his 'At least over you' at the end of #308 can also be read as accusatory, since we're discussing this), but with me I felt he was very passively-aggressively doing it, and he was even pretty (but not fully) direct at the end of our exchange:
In post 293, Om wrote:In one of my games the person who did what you're doing now flipped scum. So, I'm extremely curious about your stand. Tell me more, I'm listening.
I asked him what more he wanted from me regarding this issue in #358 but it seems he flaked before getting around to answering that. But regardless of what his answer would have been I still get a bad vibe from this indirect way of implying scumminess on my part, without giving me anything solid to answer. I have a hard time reading a protown motivation into it.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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On rereading that last post I realize that my train of thought could have been laid down better so I'll clarify.
It all hangs together; Om being sure enough of his reads to say AA9 = town based on jason = scumandto paint me as suspect for being reluctant to vote joel and gm as suspect for voting AA9. It feels contrived and self-serving.
Taken point by point they are all somewhat circumstantial but as a whole it becomes less so - and the main ingredient holding it all together is gut, but as I said I am pretty confident in my gut.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 498, SaintKerrigan wrote:Where the hell did everyone go all of a sudden? It's not like we actually have lives to live outside of this game, you know. (The last sentence might have been slightly sarcastic.)
Good question. For my part I've been following what little activity there's been since I last posted but hadn't seen a reason to comment on anything yet. I've been mostly waiting for the pace to pick up to see how things play out, like reactions to my most recent explanations of my Om case, etc.
I'm also kind of meh on the Peregrine thing although I agree with you that flipped scum's suspicion lists are highly unreliable and filled with WIFOM (and yeah, that last game of ours is a very good example of that), completely useless on their own although sometimes potentially useful when backed up by other stuff. Peregrine did do a little of that in his last post but it is admittedly somewhat thin. I'm not sure whether this terseness is just his playstyle in general so maybe some meta would help for once, if I get around to it.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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Apologies for not posting. My laptop gave up the ghost yesterday so I have no regular Internet access outside of office hours or when I am visiting someone who can lend me a computer (like right now) until I get it fixed. I will have more time to post something useful tomorrow at work. Anyway, I still like my vote, for what that's worth.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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Bulb sums up the Om/Jason case pretty well in #539. I think Jason's play has not been convincing so far. He voted Bulb early on for what I feel is a pretty weak reason and since then he has mostly spent time defending his slot. Speaking of Bulb, he feels townish to me and I would not vote him over Jason if it comes down to that (since he is currently the only other real wagon going on). Hiraki's point about Bulb saying he didn't mind being wagoned and then looking like he did mind when he got wagoned hard is admittedly something that I pegged as scummy at the time, but I think he explained that in a pretty plausible and consistent manner; he did use his wagon to scumhunt using the working theory that scum would be on his wagon, and it turned out there was at least one, i.e. joel. There's been a pretty townish 'flow' to his reads in general.
In post 506, Hiraki wrote:
Just to note, since I missed this in block of text skimming deluxeGorgon wrote:but I find no real reason to believe that joel is lying about it or misrepresenting what goes on there when he knows that this is in theory easy to check
but this is literally the dumbest logic ever (part like 9 now)
just because something is easy to do doesn't mean that people will do it
if i tell you that a guy has a penis, will you check if he has one?
I'll concede that it's a bit lazy logic, but it's still logic and not really that stupid. I mean, scum don't usually make blatant lies since the price of being found out is so high. If you lie that a guy has a penis and you know that I could very easily check it and you'll be in big trouble if you're lying, it's mostly you who would be stupid. It would be even more stupid to do this to a group of people, most of whom have a vested interest in picking through every word you say to find fault with it. I like all logic like that which saves me some legwork.
In post 554, CryoChemist wrote:/meh, honestly trying to get scum to jump on a weakish wagon.
That tactic probably won't work now that you've admitted that it's what you're doing, so who are your real top suspects?I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 597, Bulbazak wrote:If you are that concerned about the wagon, I would sincerely suggest you address the case against you and any questions that have been asked, and that you would get to scumhunting. Or you can get lynched. Your choice.
This. Mainly the scumhunting part though.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 635, Hiraki wrote:518 was more of damage control for making a mistake.
I don't really care if you believe me or not.
Jason is town. Okay?
So the 'damage control' consisted of stating the opposite of what you're now saying you believe to be the case? WTF? And you still haven't explained why you flipped on Peregrine.
I'm starting to doubt my gut town read on you as well as my own commitment to this game for the past few days. This is stuff I should have picked up on if I had been paying better attention.
Jason's claim is ... convenient though. I can see scum coming up with a fakeclaim like that in a theme game.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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Well, the claimed role seems unique enough that it could be claimed without much fear of it being directly counterclaimed, but still, given that my scum read is admittedly not very strong and that I obviously could be following this game better I will
UNVOTE:I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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I've been spending the weekend mostly having the flu and am slowly recovering, but I see there's not been all that much posting since I last checked in here. I'm looking at DA now and have a couple of questions.
Why?
In post 665, DansAdvent wrote:"took the vote off Joel, tsk. tsk. totes scummy"
Like we wouldn't have put it back on if it was needed. goddamn.
Define 'needed'.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 707, goodmorning wrote:Gorgon really ought to be voting.
I know, deadline coming up and all, but I'm pretty torn.
What mainly gives me pause regarding Hiraki is the fact, as has been pointed out, that joel explicitly said to him that he 'appreciated the defense'. Would scum really say that to their partner?
And regarding DA I'm still waiting on answers to my questions. I have a feeling that they might be trying to lurk their way to the deadline. Maybe the best thing to do now is to try to get their attention with a vote.
VOTE: DansAdventI want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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I agree that Hiraki's phrasing seems to suggest that he didn't go to the sample PM so this sorts of clears him although one can never be 100% sure about these things. It's certainly all the more reason not to lynch him to day though.
I don't see how DA is 'cleared' in a similar way though. Cryo explicitly mentioned the sample PM 'bird-brained' ability in #747 and the fact that even VTs have some sort of ability like that had been discused before DA anwered that question.
DA also has not explained his vote on Hiraki which I have explicitly asked him to do.
I'm keeping my vote unchanged.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 771, DansAdvent wrote:My vote on Hiraki is simple. I have town reads on everyone else besides Hiraki and Peregrine. I didn't find Hiraki's push on SK D1 legit.
Bah, I actually kind of agree with you on that last one; I've always found that push a bit weird. It's also weird to have so many town reads though.
In post 772, CryoChemist wrote:What do you think about Konowa being completely lost during this town PM talk? How is that not enough for ya'll to follow us to lynch scum?
I'm not sure that 'competely lost' is a correct characterization but it's a bit iffy that he didn't pick up on what you were referring to in #747. I also decided to ISO him and I see that he still hasn't explained why he believes the Jason claim. After unvoting he then jumps onto the Hiraki wagon after having stated in #551 that his case on him was 'more gut than anything else'.
Also, this is an interesting issue that's popped up:
In post 776, Konowa wrote:Actually, looking and seeing that it's kthx makes sense. I remember reading a Town game of his awhile ago, no I don't remember what, and seem to recall him tunneling relentlessly like this.
Was that player town or scum?
Also, I think you might be slipping here; you seem to be assuming that Cryo is tunneling town and trying to appeal to him and the other players as such.
I might be willing to switch to Konowa but not just yet though. It's pretty typical that the game is suddenly moving fast now that the deadline looms near and it's a lot of stuff to process.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 794, Konowa wrote:So you think I'm dumb scum who didn't notice that it was called AMURIKA MAFIA? Really?
An alternative explanation is you pulling WIFOM; "I wouldn't risk this if I was scum", but I don't really see the benefits TBH. A bit too risky to be a beneficial gambit the way I see it.
I'm inclined to believe that an Amurika-aligned MT is possible, not least because on checking up on her I came across this:
During her lifetime, Mother Teresa was named 18 times in the yearly Gallup's most admired man and woman poll as one of the ten women around the world that Americans admired most. In 1999, a poll of Americans ranked her first in Gallup's List of Most Widely Admired People of the 20th Century. In that survey, she out-polled all other volunteered answers by a wide margin, and was in first place in all major demographic categories except the very young.
Also, it makes sense that a competent mod would throw in something like this to make things more 'interesting'. That is, create a situation exactly like the one we have on our hands right now.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 796, CryoChemist wrote:We are Ann Coulter (Ann Cunter).
Glenn Beck here, since we're doing this. I still don't think that this game is as simple as 'lynch everyone who claims non-bona-fide-Amurikan' though.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 735, CryoChemist wrote:Reg, us VT's will handle this one. Hiraki is town.
What changed?
Anyway, I can't possibly see a protown reason for Hiraki's offer to do a 'trick' if he receives three votes. Especially since he has claimed VT so there can't be any game mechanics behind thisunlesshe was holding something back or is actually scum.
I'm a VT btw.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 828, CryoChemist wrote:Gorgon: why don't you give us a name with that vt claim.
I already did that yesterday so I thought doing it again would be pretty redunant. I might as well do it again though as I didn't provide the part in the parentheses. My full name is Glenn Beck (The Backbencher with Tourettes).I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 902, Regfan wrote:Also considering his last post was waiting for Hiraki to 'do his magic' and Hiraki did his magic before he came online his last time him not reacting to it at all doesn't make much sense.
Well, Hiraki's 'magic' doesn't make much sense so my main reaction to it was 'WTF?', and I didn't see a reason to rush posting that reaction. I was pretty busy yesterday too so if I had posted anything it would have been mostly filler. Regarding the supposed mechanistic nature of my posting it's something I heard in my last game as well (although I think the only player who mentioned it was scum) so I guess there's some truth to it, but I was town in that game as well so I think that's good proof of it being just playstyle. Also, not voting joel when he was at L-2 is a pretty similar to an accusation that plagued me somewhat throughout the that game, where I withdrew my vote on the scum who ended up getting lynched D1 when he reached L-1 early, and then considered voting him again later in the day but didn't actually do it (but funnily enough the player I was voting at the end of the day was scum as well). This is even more of a long shot in this game as joel was modkilled so who knows what I would have done if, for example, the joel wagon had lost steam and I had still found him to be the most scummy and in need of more votes in order to secure his lynch?
So your case is pretty circumstantial and can be shown to be based mostly on behavior that is pretty similar to stuff I did in my last game, where I was town. I'll concede that my lack of activity is bad though and your vote is a nice solid kick in the butt for me.
Vote candidates for me are Hiraki, Jason, and PV. Pretty much in that order. Not really seeing a good case on anyone else right now.
Hiraki is pretty erratic and hard to read but his Bulb vote was very weird and puts him firmly back on the scumdar. I see nothing wrong with the Bulb post that Hiraki quoted when he voted him; he's raising some pretty legitimate points. Maybe Hiraki's just tunneling this hard on Bulb but it doesn't read genuine to me.
Jason has yet to explain his vote on Bulb properly, and the reasons he seemed to give in his vote post I found to be pretty scummy (Bulb thinking that Jason's claim is bogus is actually a very good reason all on its own for him to vote him as the only way it can be bogus is that if Jason is scum; yet Jason tries to paint Bulb as suspect for having this as the only reason for his vote and for not believing what 'nearly everyone else' believes). I think that the legitimacy of his claim is something that can be argued about until the cows come home, and this argument is making my head hurt (for example, the powerroles seem to be somewhat minimal if Jason is scum, but then again I was expecting an investigative role somewhere in the mix and was quite surprised when none turned up, so this does seem to be an unusual setup in general, and I'm not the best at analyzing setups for balance anyway) - so it's easier to read into his actual behavior which has not been very protown.
PV has done a lot of what I would consider to be lurking in plain sight in this game, especially today (although I note that he hasn't been very active in his other games for the past few (RL) days either). This makes him hard to read and more neutral than scummy but I have townish reads on everyone else other than Jason and Hiraki, so ...
VOTE: HirakiI want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 926, PeregrineV wrote:@Gorgon- Nice self-meta. Need a link for that please.
That'll be the third time I link to it in this game, but sure.
In post 944, TraceyLyn11 wrote:PV isn't scum (or, not because of the claim stuff anyways). His name is DJ, that doesn't mean he IS a DJ. He never claimed to BE a DJ. He said he might be or that may have been his name or something.
I agree with this; I think he cleared this issue up pretty well in #938. The claimed role seems a bit weird and the way he went about explaining it definitely was, but I don't think this makes him scum on its own. First claiming homeless dude and then DJ Spider and having to damage control for that would be a major scum slipup; something I think scum would be very careful to avoid.
In post 944, TraceyLyn11 wrote:Bulb is not. A) he's taking claims as serious references to history or something. B) he backed up his vote with extra reasoning when the claim should have been enough for him. C) gut.
A) is a pretty good point. While researching the claim is legit it is true that Bulb seems to be taking it too seriously; this DJ Spider thing could meana lot of things and doesn't have to be a real reference to a DJ Spider in order for it to be a genuine town role in this game. So the fact that one can't find a real DJ Spider who was homeless at some point means nothing IMO.
B) is pretty normal though; if you peg someone as scum it's not unusual to ISO them to back it up. Although it wasn't necessary per se I don't see how it's scummy.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 966, Regfan wrote:I think you avoiding posting a reaction thereisincredibly scummy, town don’t care about their image and thus post what is running through their mind whereas scum don’t feel the need to go out of their way to post something that could come back to hurt them and had I not been the one to notice you being online but not posting it wouldn’t have been brought up. Also the fact that you’re stating you avoided posting because it’d be “Fillerish” is showing that you care about your opinion more than what I believe town would at this point.
It's untrue that town don't care about their image (at all, as you seem to be implying). I for one care a lot about my image when I am town and do go out of my way not to post stuff that could come off as scummy. I usually put a lot of thought into my posts and reread them many times to make sure they look good, which I believe is a sound strategy in a game where everything you say will be scrutinized minutely and repeatedly by a bunch of people. I've also been deliberately avoiding posting too often in this particular game as it is something I tend to do, and I need to teach myself that sometimes it's better to just wait until you really have something to say. As to the last part, what does 'at this point' mean? Is there less reason to care about your image at this point in the game than in other points?
In post 966, Regfan wrote:As for the Joel thing, sure at some of the points where you posted he was near L-2 / L-1 thus you not voting him is somewhat understandable but the sheer number of times where it occurred points more towards you timing your posts where you don’t have the buss and can rather redirect attention elsewhere.
I had to read this a few times and think it over to really get where you're going with this one; it seems like you are saying that I timed my posts deliberately so that joel would be at L-2 or L-1 when I posted. In light of this theory of yours I checked out my posts for myself. #110 is the first post where I say that I didn't want to vote joel because he's at L-2 and from what I can tell he was from then on very consistently at L-2 up until page 14. I then posted #358, a minimal-content catchup post (and from what I recall I didn't even realize that joel had gone down to L-3 at that point), on page 15 and he got modkilled on the next page. So the facts seem pretty inconsistent with your theory. Also, what does 'it' (as in 'it occurred') refer to? The only thing I can think of is that it means me stating that I didn't want to put joel at L-1, but the only reason I had to keep explaining it was because Om decided to make an issue of it. It's pretty sucky to have it brought up again later as I believe I made myself very clear on that point and that my behavior was reasonable.
In post 966, Regfan wrote:I have a massive problem with Gorgons Post 955; in it he states that Bulb looking into claims (Re: Homeless man / DJ spider) is a good point in a way that implies he believes it’s a scum-tell but in Post 797 he himself did ‘claim-research’ to see if Mother Theresa could plausibly be American-aligned.
Two things here. First, I didn't actually agree that I found this scummy and perhaps I should have made that more clear. I was more agreeing with the fact that Bulb's 'catch' wasn't as solid as he himself seemed to think it was. Second, comparing this with my research into Mother Theresa isn't really applicable since that is very obviously an actual person so that one could expect the mod to model the role somewhat on that person, whereas there is no really famous DJ Spider that comes to mind; although you can Google and find some DJ Spiders that tells us very little about whether the mod based the role on one of them. PV hasn't himself linked the role with any actual DJ Spider out there in the real world, so to go out of one's way to assume that it would be and base one's opinion of the legitimacy of the claim on that assumption is rather far-fetched. In short, it's not the claim research as such that I have a problem with; it's Bulb's line of logic in this particular case.
In post 967, Regfan wrote:I think the above work really well as a partner ie. Distance / FoS partner but never really drive their lynch.
It also, yet again, works really well as a cautious player not wanting to put another player whose whose alignment he is unsure of and who has previously shown an eagerness to claim his role at L-1, IMHO. I'm not sure what more I can say about that.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 972, Hiraki wrote:
the lynchpoolGorgon wrote: I've also been deliberately avoiding posting too often in this particular game as it is something I tend to do, and I need to teach myself that sometimes it's better to just wait until you really have something to say.
it yearns for death
Unvote, Vote: Gorgon
(regfan, do not pussy out of this por favor)
You could have found out for yourself with a tiny bit of meta that my posts are considerably less frequent in this game than in my last game, where I feel I went overboard with my posting - but the fact that I decided to be honest (quite needlessly; I had no real reason per se to bring it up when no one else had commented on it directly; Reg was commenting on a particular instance where I was logged in but didn't post and I could have tried to explain just that instance away if I was really trying to dodge the issue instead of being honest about how I'm playing this game) about the fact that I am doing this deliberately gives you a reason to vote me and the rest of my post seems irrelevant in your eyes. A perfect example of what I was talking about; the slightest chink in your posts can be used against you so there is a very definite reason for town players to be concerned about what they post. In this particular case though the vote is so blatantly off IMO that I hope that I'm not alone in seeing it as such.
And I'm the only one voting you now while you put me at L-1? Now that is depressing ... as is the fact that I spent about half an hour writing this post to make sure nothing in it can be twisted against me before thinking 'Fuck it, let's just treat this like the game it is and try to have fun with it.'I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 974, Bulbazak wrote:PV claimed to be a homeless guy. He then claimed his name was DJ Spider. These 2 claims don't mesh (There was a whole big discussion about how this was a lie. Seriously, I'm surprised you both missed it.) Furthermore, I looked up the claim name, like I have everything else that has been claimed, and this one did not check out. He's lying. We've shown that he's lying. And he should be lynched.
I don't agree that he has directly shown to be lying. His stated full name (or whatever you call it; name plus paranthesised part like all players seem to have in their role PMs) is A Homeless Man (DJ Spider).Maybethis is damage control to combine the two unmeshing claims but I think that's a long shot and that scum don't mess up this badly with their claims; the alternative explanation of him having been referring to the first part in his initial claim and then expanding on it later by referring to the paranthesised part is more plausible to me. And as I said before, your criteria for this claim 'checking out' is too narrow IMO.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 988, Hiraki wrote:so you're sticking by a vigkill theory without the vig claiming?
How do you get that out of Bulb's post?I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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I pretty much agree with Bulb that it's hard to get definite reads out of #302 as WIFOM plays a big part, but if I had to try ...
There are two confirmed townies there that he calls out for lurking, and the third one, SK/Tracey reads town to me. In #104 joel posited the theory that mafia were to be found among the lurkers, so it looks from that that this was a pretty straightforward case of trying to set up a cheap policy lynch on a hapless townie for lurking and direct attention not just away from himself but his partners as well. Note that he doesn't really build any sort of case on those people apart from the lurking so it's all pretty passive aggressive. Also, joel ended up voting AA9 in #333 who is a confirmed townie but was something of an easy target at the time so I think it's quite plausible that his overall play was pretty naive, complete with never going after a partner. If he did I think it would be SK rather than Cryo, and very unlikely both, but I think it's most likely, everything considered, that neither is scum.
The very positive town stances on Om and Bulb are most likely to me to be either buddying or invoking WIFOM ("They'll never believe I was so bold as to call a partner town with such conviction!"). Which one is which is hard to say without further reads, but with them I think it's pretty plausible that with Om it's WIFOM and Bulb it's buddying. Both being WIFOM is pretty unlikely here IMO.
All this could be just confirmation bias based on my existing reads, but I think it does strengthen them somewhat.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 1005, PeregrineV wrote:In post 955, Gorgon wrote:In post 926, PeregrineV wrote:@Gorgon- Nice self-meta. Need a link for that please.
That'll be the third time I link to it in this game, but sure.
I'll grant the style and tone are similar to what you have here.
Do you have any recent scum games?
Nope, my last game and this one are my only recent ones. I gave what I think is my last scum game in this post.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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I came across an interesting thing while looking into joel and his votes in depth ...
In post 329, Bulbazak wrote:Do you even know what a chainsaw defense is? It's when scum attack the people on their partner's wagon or pressuring their partner. And what you have been doing is blatantly attacking those pressuring Joel.
In post 353, joelsdaman1 wrote:It's the pointless vote for Bulb that irritated me.
As you can see the first three posts are pretty tightly spaced and the fourth is him explaining his reason for voting retroactively.
Since joel votes AA9 on the very same page as Bulb explains what a chainsaw defense is I think it's pretty unlikely that he wasn't fully aware of the concept and that it was generally found to be scummy. So does he then go right ahead and chainsaw defends Bulb, his partner, in the hope of invoking WIFOM? Or is he instead thinking "Oh, so if I chainsaw defend some townie they will think he is my partner if I flip?". The latter is a more straightforward thought process that I would expect from an inexperienced young player, i.e. if there was any thought process beyond just going after an easy target.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 834, goodmorning wrote:Gorgon is one of the less noticeable players. I personally am calling him likely Scum, though I'm sure the playerlist is probably half and half on that. Has claimed VT.
In post 978, goodmorning wrote:I think if Gorgon flips Scum then chances increase that bulba is, but for right now I think he's Town. If Gorgon flips Town, Hiraki ought to be lynched.
It looks to me like gm's been pretty passive-aggressive and wishywashy towards me today. Is that just me?
Same goes for Hiraki in fact. This is after gm has called him scum and is voting him:
In post 834, goodmorning wrote:Hiraki hard-defended joels D1. Does this make him Scum? Who knows, but he certainly looks bad. Has claimed VT.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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In post 1040, PeregrineV wrote:For the record, I have no reason to believe in an SK, as they are usually indicated by an additional death. For there to be one here, that means on two separate nights a kill a was blocked. While certainly possible, it's just frankly not very believable.
I pretty much agree with this. Two nights with only one kill each night means that the theory of two kill factions rests on two contingencies. Not impossible of course, but far from proven. The AA9 kill admittedly looks weird as a mafia kill but I don't think it makes much more sense as an SK kill either - and it has to be either one since nobody has claimed the kill.
Anyway, I never was particularily persuaded by the part of the Om/Jason case that rested on the assumption that she was killed in order to flip her as town and the case is quite strong enough without that part.
Also PV, you seem to be basing your Bulb case somewhat on the assumption that Jason is scum (if I'm reading you correctly), which is reminiscent of what Om was doing to me on D1. It may be hypocritical of me but I'll state for the record that if Jason is lynched and flips scum I think you should be looked at in this light, especially since although I can kind of see where you're going with that case, I personally think it's pretty weak after going through Bulb's ISO; his play against Jason reads pretty genuine to me. The #831 and #839 combo is especially pertinent; if Bulb was really trying to soft push Jason there was no real need for him to go back to voting him with the reason 'Wait, his claim is bullshit' after voting you and saying he'd explain it later. This is mostly gut of course though.
I'm still disappointed by the lack of Hiraki votes. Since doing his Ra magic trick where he called the three people voting him scum he has voted five people, only one of whom was on his wagon, so I'm not really seeing anything really protown about that move. It has now been nine RL days since he voted me and since then he has been pretty terse and hasn't contributed much of value IMO. I see no obvious reason for his Bulb vote in #910 and his vote on me seemed opportunistic. I could go on but I guess I just would like to hear from the rest of you why you think he's town.I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly.- Gorgon
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Great. I'm AFK for about 24 hours and there's a lynch when I get back. I don't think it was a bad lynch though although some more time for discussion wouldn't have hurt at all. And since the thread's still open ...
In post 1047, Hiraki wrote:
I've already addressed this, no?Gorgon wrote:he called the three people voting him scum
I must have missed that then. You're still being pretty terse in your posting though.
In post 1048, Bulbazak wrote:Gorgon, what is your read on Jason?
Pretty much unchanged from #923. His blowup doesn't say much other than he was very angry and it's something that could come from both town and scum in this situation.
In post 1051, PeregrineV wrote:I also pointed out that Bulb has done it the three players.
You mean soft push (which is what I'm addressing in the stuff you quoted)? Because it read to me like you were mainly accusing him of avoiding voting Jason. The 'three players' thing fits the trend of him doubting claims better, and you seem to be talking about that:
In post 1051, PeregrineV wrote:I've never played with him before, but casting doubt on some claims but others are acceptable seems selective to me. If he wants to make flavor arguments, then fine. Or setup speculation, I also understand. But using all three plus "I can't find you on Google" makes it seem less genuine.
Fair enough. It reads pretty genuine to me although I disagree with it. Again that's gut though.
In post 1051, PeregrineV wrote:However, Hiraki's day1 defnse of "noob Joel" I guess would be incriminating, but I don't get the feeling Hiraki would defend a scumbuddy. Also, I felt the same way, if not as strong, so don't really think it's all that scummy.
I actually at the time felt that his hard defense was not incriminating, but the opposite of that, so I had Hiraki as town after D1 but it's his more recent play that comes off as not protown at best and scummy at worst. Maybe he was invoking WIFOM with his hard defense of Joel and felt he had something of a free pass from there.
In post 1051, PeregrineV wrote:Aside from vote-hopping and voting you, why is he scum?
Lack of juicy content, i.e. some actual contribution to the game. That's actually my main reason. Just look at the length and content of his posts lately. Maybe he's just bored with the game and/or confused about it, but this behaviorisscummy.
Then why didn't you when you last posted before this post? At what point did you want to unvote and why?I want to concentrate on playing one game at a time so I'm not available for replacements. If this changes I will change this sig accordingly. - Gorgon
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