Mini 392: Jungle Republic - Game over!

[Thestatusquo]

/in

[Thestatusquo]

vote chamber

Seriously.

[Thestatusquo]

BANDWAGON LOL!

[Thestatusquo]

Oh please. Jathans just playing around.

[Thestatusquo]

I noted it.

[Thestatusquo]

unvote, vote cadre

Looks like opportunistic scum to me.

[Thestatusquo]

A big FOS goes out to both: Rastapopolous and Chamber

As far as I can see, chamber seems to have confirmed via pm and hasnt posted yet and even more suspicious is Rastapopolous who was the second to confirm in this thread, however hasn't posted a thing since the game started.

Are you guys waiting for something? Night perhaps? No ties to killing any innocents during the day? Or just planning on hopping on a bandwagon later? hmm. interesting to ponder.

You have obviously never played with chamber before.

[Thestatusquo]

Day one, unless you're attacking me, you're lurking.

[Thestatusquo]

lol. Chamber is playing on tilt.

[Thestatusquo]

wiki it ASSHOLE.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm always on tilt.

[Thestatusquo]

Chamber...Back something up?

[Thestatusquo]

Sexing in.

[Thestatusquo]

ote: Lying brian

[Thestatusquo]

or

vote: lying brian

[Thestatusquo]

Reasons, lying brian.

[Thestatusquo]

Riiiiiight here i amSorry about not postin i havent been lurking suspiciously honest!So please guys...give me a wee chance to prove my innocence eh my thingy hasnt been workin since forever.

Hm.So r we meant to b voting or what?I havent had time to read it all yet...

What are you talking about? There aren't even any votes on you. Guilty concience much?

unvote, vote rastapopolous

[Thestatusquo]

unvote, vote shadowlurker

Jathan should always be quicklynched. Always.

[Thestatusquo]

because jathan must be quicklynched at all times.

[Thestatusquo]

You can vote me, but I simpy hammered shadowlurker because he must be quicklynched at all times. It's a nul tell for me, since I would do it as both scum and town.

I might be scum, yes, but voting off of something like that makes no sense for two reasons:

1) I've already explained how I would do it both town and scum, but if you don't buy that
2) It is much less likely a scum would do that then town, because scum wants to avoid that kind of pressure. Come on now, I'm an experienced player; do you really think I'd have 'opportunistic voting' as one of my scum tells?

[Thestatusquo]

How about every scum chat game I've ever been in with Jathan.

[Thestatusquo]

Looking at the list, no. But you could go into scum chat as some random sn and watch a couple games.

[Thestatusquo]

Lying brian and Rastapopolus, or whomever has replaced him are scum.

[Thestatusquo]

NAI and Kingpin are town. and I just noticed you replaced Rosta. Guess that means you're scum. Surely not from anything you've done. But Rasta was scummy as hell.

[Thestatusquo]

- Post #160
@Thestatusquo

but I simpy hammered shadowlurker because he must be quicklynched at all times.

do you want to explain this?!? this statement in itself is enough reason for a vote...

You obviously know nothing of Jathan and my dynamic. How is "this alone" a reason to vote?

I might be scum, yes, but voting off of something like that makes no sense for two reasons:

1) I've already explained how I would do it both town and scum, but if you don't buy that
2) It is much less likely a scum would do that then town, because scum wants to avoid that kind of pressure.

this is basically the same reasoning that ShadowLurker used! i'll submit again, that if you commit a suspicious action, regardless of whether or not you commit the same action as confirmed town or scum, then you should be voted... call it WIFOM, call it circular logic, call it whatever you want, but it does not make any sense to me why i should let a player who is acting suspiciously continue to do so...

1)Way to ignore the first point I make, which is the most important one. Extend it, at the point where I do this as both scum and town, there is no reason to vote for me off of it. I'll expect to see you moving your vote soon.

2)Your conception of wifom is very very wrong. Wifom refers specifically the circular logic. http://www.mafiascum.net/cgi-bin/wiki.p ... ront_of_Me

Where wifom falls appart is when the scum player has such a disincentive to do the act that the recursive thinking confusion is not worth it to undertake.

In this case, I have incurred I think 5 votes, because of an act that I did yesterday. If you think a scum player would think that the wifom defense is worth this pressure, than you're really, really dumb, and I can't wait to play against you when you're scum.

3)Why should you let a player who's 'acting suspiciously continue to do so?'
That's

[]

obvious, dude. Your job is not to find suspicious players, your job is to find scum. At the point where what is considered suspicious is subjective, and at the point where I do that specified act regardless of alignment, your arguement falls to shreds.

Come on now, I'm an experienced player; do you really think I'd have 'opportunistic voting' as one of my scum tells?

it may not be a 'tell', but it doesn't mean you're NOT scum...

So you're going to stop voting off of the basis of fact, and vote on the premise that I might be scum? That is very very very stupid. Towns job is to find and go after scum tells. If you admit that what I did is not a tell, then you're saying you're basically just going after me randomly. Well, you could go after anyone randomly. Theres a specific stage of the game for this; it's called random voting. We're not there anymore. This point you just made is tantamount to saying "Yeah, you're not scummy, but I'mma vote for you anyway.

- Posts #168-170
interesting... accusations & justifications w/o any backup... in general, i dislike the play style you're demonstrating Thestatusquo

You dislike my playstyle? Fine. Dislike my playstyle. Having a playstyle you don't like does not make me scum.

and how the heck do you get a scum vibe from 3 posts?!? the 1st one was a confirmation post, the next was after the site was down letting us know she was still here, and the 3rd was just i don't know, but i did notice Rastapopolous is a 'Townsperson' as far as # of posts, and she may not have the best grasp of the English language or typing skills, but i have no clue how that makes her scum...

Riiiiiight here i amSorry about not postin i havent been lurking suspiciously honest!So please guys...give me a wee chance to prove my innocence eh my thingy hasnt been workin since forever.

Hm.So r we meant to b voting or what?I havent had time to read it all yet...

This post is more interesting if you look at the fact that there was no pressure on her whatsoever. There is absolutely nothing pushing her, and yet she's acting like a guilty kid who needs to prove her innocence. This is scummy as hell. Guilty concience tells are one of the best for noobs IMO.

i see absolutely no reason to move my vote...

And I see absolutely no reason why it should be on me, since your argumentation is a bunch of missconceptions, and a 'dislike of [my] playstyle. But suit yourself.

[Thestatusquo]

I'd also like to point out, that you're conceding essentially my whole position when you say 'this is the same logic shadowlurker used!!!!!oneoneoneoneon"

Shadowlurker was town,

[]

. At the point where you admit town uses that logic to, it's yet again another reason that can't be used to say I'm scum.

[Thestatusquo]

TSQ: Wait wait wait... You're telling the audience here that you hammered him because you "don't like his playstyle" and you "want the game to be fun"? Meaning, you had no real reason to hammer him other than the fact that you don't like him, and it's just a running joke between you two? WOW! That seems VERY town to me. I mean, it's SO town that it goes right out the other side and becomes probably the scummiest thing I've ever heard in a game, and I've played against Coron's/Fritzler's arguments.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I never said that as my reason for hammering.

[Thestatusquo]

i already said, Nai. I do it on both sides of the coin, so it can't be a tell.

[Thestatusquo]

No, that's not the argument. The argument is that it can't be used to say I'm scummy. I am not saying it automatically means I am town, but I am saying it is as meaningless to determining my alignment as like, my avatar is, because it's a constant that does not change regardless of alignment.

[Thestatusquo]

Wow you're dumb. Really really dumb. Your job is to find scum, if what I did is done on both town and scum, then how the

...

is it a reason to vote?

[Thestatusquo]

That is not my argument. My argument is not that we cant know my allignment at this juncture. This is because all you are going off of is a nul tell. This is important because if you can't tell my alignment from what I did, then there is no reason to vote me for it. My argument was never that I am concretely not scum, my argument is that this particular thing does not make me scum or town, so you shouldn't be using it to base a vote off of it, and there is nothing else to implicate me as scum right now, so at this juncture, THERE IS NO REASON TO THINK I'M SCUM.

Stop straw manning me, and actually read the argument.

[Thestatusquo]

Remove the not in the second sentance, for clarity.

[Thestatusquo]

That is not my argument. My argument is not that we cant know my allignment at this juncture. This is because all you are going off of is a nul tell. This is important because if you can't tell my alignment from what I did, then there is no reason to vote me for it. My argument was never that I am concretely not scum, my argument is that this particular thing does not make me scum or town, so you shouldn't be using it to base a vote off of it, and there is nothing else to implicate me as scum right now, so at this juncture, THERE IS NO REASON TO THINK I'M SCUM.

Stop straw manning me, and actually read the argument.

You're not off the hook till you respond to this, and until you do, your vote is without reasoning.

[Thestatusquo]

You know what, fuck this you're all dumb. If I didn't really not want to fuck over Kellys game, I'd ask to be replaced, because your ability to understand arguments seems to be about nil.

[Thestatusquo]

There is no reason specific to this game that I did it. Jathan must always be quicklynched because thats how things are. This relates directly to scum chat, so I don't see how I can answer that question while still divorcing the two.

[Thestatusquo]

I also think I can make a statement that will clear things up: There are no universal scum tells.

There are no things that 'scum always do and town never do' as you all seem to think. Individual players have scum tells that they repeat, which is why meta gaming is a superior strategy.

Why are there no universal scum tells? Well, 2 reasons.

1) Because each players plays certain roles in different ways...There is not a manual saying people must play scum in such and such a way and town in such and such a way.

Example, when I am SK, I DON'T KILL till end game. I play almost as if I were a completely town vigilante, and then BOOM I start devestating the town in end game. Is this normal? No. Does it make my day time play completely different then what you'd expect from a sk? Yes. The implication of this is that if certain people play roles in different ways, then there can't be a list of concrete 'scum tells'

2) You say they are scum tells if they benefit the scum more than town. THIS IS WRONG. This whole d2 proves my point. If scum could get away with hammering d1 eith no reason, then they would do it all the time, but the fact is they can't. It draws WAAAAAY too much attention to them, so much as to make a more powerful disincentive to do it. This is not wifom, I am just pointing out that scum tells are actually things scum would not do because it makes people think they're scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, Zin. Noobs are much more likely to make 'the big bad everyone knows' scum tells than experienced players are. With experienced players, you have to meta game them in order to figure them out. I need to check out a few of your games.

[Thestatusquo]

Because I'm wondering which one of the three people going after me is opportunistic scum, and which two are just dumb town. I think I have king pin pegged as town, so it's either Nai or Lying brian who will be recieving my vote.

[Thestatusquo]

I am going to re read tonight and decide if I am voting for Nai or lying brian.

[Thestatusquo]

How about the possibility that I am just a pretty damn good arguer. I did go 10-5 at nationals in debate.

I have kingpin purely pegged as town right now.

[Thestatusquo]

Vote lying brian

King pin, I have explained fully why the hammer vote is not a scummy when applied to me. It would be scummy when applied to you, because you have no regular interaction with jathan (shadowlurker) so it's not something you'd do as both town and scum. The reason that's important, is that while you would have no reason to do it as town, I DO. Which is why it cant be looked to as an indicator of scummyness.

[Thestatusquo]

Spron...I never said he replaced rasta. I have always said it was zindaras.

[Thestatusquo]

Thats actually not the defense I used at all.

[Thestatusquo]

You can vote me, but I simpy hammered shadowlurker because he must be quicklynched at all times. It's a nul tell for me, since I would do it as both scum and town.

I might be scum, yes, but voting off of something like that makes no sense for two reasons:

1) I've already explained how I would do it both town and scum, but if you don't buy that
2) It is much less likely a scum would do that then town, because scum wants to avoid that kind of pressure. Come on now, I'm an experienced player; do you really think I'd have 'opportunistic voting' as one of my scum tells?

That was my actual reasoning, note that much more emphasis is put on the first part, which was my actual defense. The second thing was a secondary reason. Just because you think theres a flaw in one part of my reasoning does not mean you can completely ignore the rest of it.

[Thestatusquo]

But germy, again, that is not what I did. This is the chain of events:

1)I hammer.
2) I am called scummy for hammering
3) I say that hammering in that situation does not make me scummy (NOTE: Does not make me scummy, I.E. It is not a scum tell. I never said it meant I wasn't scum, I said since there were no other reasons to suspect I was scum, voting off of me for the nul tell was dumb, and not founded) I NEVER CLAIMED IT MADE ME TOWN.

You're finding me suspicious, then, for essentially disagreeing with you about what a scum tell is.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, there are reasons that Jathan must be quicklynched at all times:

1) No one likes Jathan.
2) Jathan is erratic and not fun to play with
3) Jathan is asian
4) Jathan is nine years old.

[Thestatusquo]

unvote, vote germy

[Thestatusquo]

Again, I am certain he's not town, and DEFINITELY not the Seer.

Why?

I also find it very suspicious that you want the Seer to claim. Run this scenario through your head: Seer claims. LyingBrian dies. Seer dies during the night (as the communists can't let him live in this setup). That leaves town without our trump card. And YOU seem to want the seer to claim, just so you are satisfied that LB is not him.

You stopped running the scenario, and replaced it with your own opinion. The actual scenario is this:

Seer claims
lying brian dies-5 town, 4 scum
seer dies in the night 4 town, 4 scum

Seer does not claim.
Lying brian does not die-Assuming a misslynch 4 town, 5 scum
Someone dies at night 3 town, 5 scum.

Assuming a correct lynch- 5 town 4 scum
someone dies at night 4 town, 4 scum

With seer claiming, we definitely have 4-4 going into the next day, which is the best case scenario for not claiming. If the seer does not claim and we fuck up, then it's 3-5, and town is fucked. Now. I don't think you care about that, because I think you're not town, but I care.

Be more clever in your attempt to decieve us next time

unvote, vote nai

FOS: Germy

I'm reasonably sure they're both scum.

Conclusion: Seer should counterclaim if lying brian is not it. If I do not see a counter claim, I will assume lying brian is seer.

[Thestatusquo]

Nai. Please tell me where I said you were town? Unless you're name somehow magically changed from Nai to kingpin, then I never did. Your attempt to poison the well is noted, however.

[Thestatusquo]

Hm.... I'm going to go re read now.

[Thestatusquo]

Forgot to mention

unvote nai

Is anyone else in favor of leaving them both alive till one shows up dead, then we can be sure the one we're lynching is scum, and it will give disinsentive to kill the real one? I'm seriously considering throwing my vote back to germy.

[Thestatusquo]

Forgot to mention

unvote nai

Is anyone else in favor of leaving them both alive till one shows up dead, then we can be sure the one we're lynching is scum, and it will give disinsentive to kill the real one? I'm seriously considering throwing my vote back to germy.

There is reasoning behind voting for someone else that you have ignored. Just saying you find them suspicious does not make that reasoning go away.

[Thestatusquo]

Any objections to me going ahead and hammering?

[Thestatusquo]

P.S

Kelly, can you prod Friday_13th please.

I did yesterday. It hasn't been picked up yet.

[Thestatusquo]

Well, I will obviously wait for that.

[Thestatusquo]

Why not? I see no situation where he would not try it. Town, obv doesn't want us to misslynch him, scum obv wants us to misslynch you.

[Thestatusquo]

FOS LUCRESIA

I wanted to do that.

[Thestatusquo]

germy, even if I AM a communist, you realize that town has to lynch islamist today, right?

vote: germy

Pretty sure he's an islamist.

[Thestatusquo]

Well, that was fairly rediculous...

[Thestatusquo]

A couple of things.

FOS: Sprontalic and TSQ

I have had TSQ pegged as being scum since D1 and his quick lynch. Yesterday the town screwed up. I think it has something to do with the Islamists trying to railroad the town.

No, might as well claim. I am a plain republican, your read is off, but I hardly think it matters. The islamists have won this game.

Spron: Before you voted for Germy, did you bother to read the thread and figure out who may have actually advocated for the seer to claim?

Conclusion: Seer should counterclaim if lying brian is not it. If I do not see a counter claim, I will assume lying brian is seer.

The reason this is important is because it leads me to believe that the Islamists were already setting up their endgame strategy. A quick railroading of a townie would put them in a position to win if Commie scum nightkills an innocent.

I think the islamist strategy (and I think you very well may be one of them) hardly matters. Unless they play in a retarded manner, they will win.

I found TSQ suspicious from D1. I have stated those reasons previously. I explained yesterday that it was important to lynch scum, of either faction. Leading the charge on Germy, was TSQ.

This is again wrong. I was not leading the charge. I was suspicious of germy, the point brought about based on his behavior being opposite of that expected of a townie when faced with LBs claim was very compelling to me, but I certainly was not the one to make it. I do not find it suspicious that people made it, or followed it. You have to reconcile in your mind KP, that sometimes townies make mistakes and do things that are bad for the town, this does not make said things scum tells. Sometimes town does it on purpose as a joke between friends, and as meta choices (the former being the case in the SL lynch.) This again does not make them scum tells. Looking at the intent of the action is how one determines if it's scummy or not.

Of course, a majority of you were involved in that. Which leaves us with a lynch or lose situation. We must lynch an Islamist today.

Which is the same situation as yesterday. I pointed that out, and you naively said we need to kill commie yesterday. That was dumb, because it was obvious the commies would pursue a strat of non killing because killing puts THEM in LOL.

Which leads me to TSQ. TSQ ignored the writing on the wall, while basically telling Nai that he needed to counter-claim, though it was clear that Nai was the Seer. I can think of a couple of reasons that this drew my attention.

Actually, my analysis was pretty succinct. We know this an open setup game. We need to kill a scum today. Our main threat is the islamists. Losing a seer is worth it to out one of the two communists. I still stand by that reasoning. Notice communists are not our threats right now, that is because with 1 member instead of 2, they fear a tie as much as we do, and are essentially on our side for now. I also backed up my positions by showing the mathmatical rundowns of the scenarios.

1. TSQ wanted the Seer gone, shows signs of Commie Scum.

Answered above, that was not my reasoning.

2. Wanted to be absolutely certain that his nightkill was the Seer, signs of Commie Scum.

Actually, if you recall correctly, I suggested a gambit which would commies a disincentive to killing the seer at night. Also, I thought that commies would recognize that with the numbers islamists were a bigger threat to their win conditions.

3. TSQ used the same “writing on the wall” to all but claim he was the last Commie Scum.

germy, even if

I AM

a communist, you realize that town has to lynch islamist today, right?

(bold added for emphasis)

Conclusion: TSQ is the last Communist.

This is again another blatant misstatement. The opperative word in my statement is not 'I AM' It is

IF

. My argument was that even if he thinks that I am the last remaining communist, he still should be pushing in other directions, because I felt, and still do, that an islamist should have been killed.

TSQ was wrong in his assessment that and Islamist needed to be lynched yesterday, see previous statements by myself and others. Instead sheep followed suit and voted germy.

Vote Count
4 - germy (Yosarian2, Thestatusquo, sprontalic, Zindaras)
1 - Yosarian2 (germy)

not voting: KingPin, Norinel, Lucresia

Sheep this late in the game are usually trying for a scum win. Additionally, A wagon this fast at this stage of the game, seems to indicate quick acting scum.

I agree with the sheep thing, but I would also contend that the arguments against germy were valid. I would also (though I doubt it will be believed) like to put out there that I was planning on unvoting germy as the wagon grew, but couldn't because he self voted...A retarded strategy. But I disagree that we needed to be lynching the communists, and the communists have proven my point, as they are forced to play on the towns side right now, as they lose in draw scenarios.

I am betting that three of the four people on that wagon are scum. Zin, gives me the most town vibes. TSQ, I think is Commie and the other two, IMO are Islamists. I have no real scum feel from either Nori or Luc.

I think you are severely missreading this game, or you are in fact scum. The islamic group, in my opinion, would not give scum vibes, because they are pretty much a second town, except that they know each other. I don't know if you've ever played with cults before, but the islamists, to me, seem much more likely to act in that manner than in a traditional scum sense. I believe you have to throw your traditional scumdar out the window with islamists, as it is in their best interest to play as town, only scum hunting for the communists. I would expect then, an islamist, at this point in the game, to focus on throwing a lot of suspicion on someone they thought was a communist, while pretending to search for their own number. This is exactly what you just did

FOS: kingpin

i

[Thestatusquo]

So you think we ought to be going after lurkers (Oh boy...) please be more explicit about your suspicions.

[Thestatusquo]

Zindie, I believe you just got pwned. *huggles*

[Thestatusquo]

I'm just watching the sparks fly, and watching my reads get firmer for now, zin.

[Thestatusquo]

YARR!

[Thestatusquo]

Too bad I am vanilla town, that changes quite a bit.

[Thestatusquo]

Why would you do that if you don't think it's a good idea?

[Thestatusquo]

Yeah...Because the communists were such a threat.