Mini 368: Town Of Suspicion - Game over!

[petroleumjelly]

I don't think that's an accurate description of your stance towards CES. When the whole Rosso vs. CES thing went down, you stated that you had "no frickin' clue" whether he was scum or not. You did bring up Band Mafia much later as a reason for why you were against the bandwagon on him, but I'm not really sure what to think about that. The fact that you're basically waving an "I told you so" sign in my face first thing after he died is not exactly reassuring, to say the least.

The reason I did not go directly into my meta-game on CES is because it sounds silly when put down on the written page. But as a general rule of thumb:

-When CES is being completely useless and bandwagony, he is probably town
-When CES is contributing to discussion and being helpful, he is probably scum

Of course I have "no frickin' clue" whether or not was scum or town (although I was leaning towards town), the sheer fact that

so many players

favored a CES-lynch over a Rosso-lynch made me

not

like the bandwagon on him, which in turn made it even

more

likely that he was town.

The thing is, I

do

sometimes know when I'm better off not explaining myself, and my meta-game stance on CES was one of those times. If I had seriously tried to defend CES on my reasoning above, I probably would have done more harm than good.

So far as "I-told-you-so" posts, you better just get used to them.

Unvote: Thok, Vote: Al_Kohaulec

.

[al_kohaulec]

yay, alkowagon.

I think this is the first time there's a wagon against me that I don't see/agree with points brought up against me.

[petroleumjelly]

Since when does one vote constitute a wagon, Alky?

[al_kohaulec]

heh, strange, I thought there were more.

I must be thinking of my other game right now My bad.

[petroleumjelly]

You mean the game where you're

not

scum?

[al_kohaulec]

Yaus, that one.

[M4yhem]

Hello again, guys.

I don't believe Thok. Maybe he

is

a roleblocker, but he isn't a protown roleblocker. There is no protown reason for him to have hammered me like he did; it was 24hrs from deadline, so I would have died anyway. The

only

reason to vote when he did is to stop other people commenting on my roleclaim. Why would a townie risk losing a powerrole like that? Even if he had a similar role, surely he would wait to see what other people thought?
Of course he would! Thok's a sensible player, which is why I agree with PJ that he's a lying scumbag. He saw his chance to get rid of a powerrole, he took it, and now he's trying to wriggle out of it. That's not acceptable.

vote:Thok

I also find Al_Kohaulec suspect. It's very easy to say that you would have unvote me.1 now that I'm dead, but you didn't seem ready to listen when I was alive, Al.
You never even gave a reason. Why did you vote for M4yhem.1? I'm going to keep asking until you give me an answer. So you might as well make something up now.

Fos:Al_Kohaulec

[mith]

No time for much now (Christmas drinks, then tutorial, then... lots of other things to do before I leave).

I'm not going to claim that I would have unvoted M4yhem if I had been given time to evaluate his last post before Thok hammered. I was certainly annoyed at Thok when I saw that, though, given that my last two posts included: "This makes me very hesitant." and "I want to look at the whole thing fresh before the deadline comes."

So,

FOS: Thok

. However, I'm going to play devil's advocate for the moment. WIFOM: Why on earth would Thok do something so blatantly scummy if he really were scum? There wasn't a lot to gain; there wasn't much time for things to switch away from M4yhem. Does denying us that discussion and the small chance of a drastic vote switch outweigh the attention he brought on himself? I'm not sure, and I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks.

Lots of rereading needed, hopefully I'll have time for that this weekend after I finish my marking.

[Kelly Chen]

Vote Count

2 - Thok (Thestatusquo, M4yhem)
1 - al_kohaulec (petroleumjelly)

not voting: CrashTextDummie, pablito, al_kohaulec, Thok, mith, LuckayLuck

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch!

[Thok]

I don't believe Thok. Maybe he

is

a roleblocker, but he isn't a protown roleblocker. There is no protown reason for him to have hammered me like he did; it was 24hrs from deadline, so I would have died anyway. The

only

reason to vote when he did is to stop other people commenting on my roleclaim. Why would a townie risk losing a powerrole like that? Even if he had a similar role, surely he would wait to see what other people thought?

If I believed that M4yhem1 were scum, why would I want people commenting on your roleclaim? Hypothetical m4yhem1scum might have been able to talk people out of lynching himself. I have absolutely no problem lynching a claimed power role if I think he's a lying scum.

[annoyed rant]I'd be more sympathetic to your comments about killing off discussion of your role if you didn't wait until two days before the deadline to roleclaim, and didn't precede it by no lynch, followed by OMGUS, with yet another no lynch when you voted, all the while going "There's no reason to vote me! None of the issues people have brought up have any value whatsoever!"[/annoyed rant]

[petroleumjelly]

Funny.

I would be more sypathetic with Thok if he weren't scum.

[petroleumjelly]

If I believed that M4yhem1 were scum, why would I want people commenting on your roleclaim?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe you might be able to find a hypothetical scum-partner that way. Just a thought.

[Thok]

In 2 days? You're reaching.

[Thok]

Rephrase by way of double post

In 2 days? Given that we already have three months worth of stuff to work with?

In addition, I'm amused by the way that you are throwing weasel words at me while trying to vote/bus your partner.

(Partially OMGUS, partially the observation that scum are more likely to groupthink on the issue on how to deal with me after I lynched M4yhem and they have more incentive to attack me then to defend me).

Would you like to answer my questions about you and TSQ?
Would you like to explain why you think me answering your last three questions will help you analyze anybody other than myself, who you are already mostly certain is scum?

[petroleumjelly]

Now we're getting somewhere, at least.

In 2 days? Given that we already have three months worth of stuff to work with?

Yes. It would have been nice to know who backed off of M4yhem, who pressed a further attack, and who sat on the sidelines. I would say those would have been pretty important reactions. Ideally, I would like to know everybody's stance on a given person after they are attacked, after they have defended, and after they have claimed. That tends to help me find scum.

Why are you directing TSQ's vote? What do you think of his reaction to your comment?

I was not "directing TSQ's vote", I was pointing out that the vote on M4yhem2 was completely stupid unless TSQ was suspicious of Pooky. I don't recall telling TSQ where to slap a vote. I am unimpressed by the reaction, but I have other people I am currently pressing.

In addition, I'm amused by the way that you are throwing weasel words at me while trying to vote/bus your partner.

I'm amused that you are calling both Al_Ko and myself scum in this quote, and yet are voting for neither of us.

(Partially OMGUS, partially the observation that scum are more likely to groupthink on the issue on how to deal with me after I lynched M4yhem and they have more incentive to attack me then to defend me).

Townspeople who don't know your alignment aren't just going to ignore things like that. I certainly hope you weren't expecting a bouquet of flowers and a Miss America sash.

Would you like to explain why you think me answering your last three questions will help you analyze anybody other than myself, who you are already mostly certain is scum?

1.) My mind isn't made up. Otherwise I wouldn't be voting for Al_Ko right now.
2.) There are other townspeople in the game. Your answers to my questions gives us more to work off of.

[Thok]

(Partially OMGUS, partially the observation that scum are more likely to groupthink on the issue on how to deal with me after I lynched M4yhem and they have more incentive to attack me then to defend me).

Townspeople who don't know your alignment aren't just going to ignore things like that. I certainly hope you weren't expecting a bouquet of flowers and a Miss America sash.

I realize that I deserved to be yelled at/found scummy for lynching M4yhem. I don't expect praise; but I'm not going to stop hunting scum/analyzing people's behavior just because there's a good chance I'm going to get lynched.

You'll notice that I didn't make this comment until after essentially everybody in the game made some assessment of me. (I probably should have waited for LuckayLuck to say something, oh well.) And at least two people (pablito/CTD) have said they found me likely protown/that they believe the claim, with a third (mith) noting that there's at least a mediocre to decent WIFOM argument to argue that I'm not scum. So I do think it's quite possible for pro town players to look at my actions and see that there's a possibility that I'm protown (unless you believe that all three of mith, CTD, and pablito are scum, in which case either I'm protown or there's a four person scum group).

[petroleumjelly]

And at least two people (pablito/CTD) have said they found me likely protown/that they believe the claim, with a third (mith) noting that there's at least a mediocre to decent WIFOM argument to argue that I'm not scum. So I do think it's quite possible for pro town players to look at my actions and see that there's a possibility that I'm protown (unless you believe that all three of mith, CTD, and pablito are scum, in which case either I'm protown or there's a four person scum group.

What are you going on about? Rarely, if ever, does an entire scum group hold the same opinion on the same person. Any group worth their snuff often takes alternate roads, so as to leave less of a connection between themselves. Three people saying they believe you are town does not make all of them scum if you are scum. The purpose of fake-claims are to get townspeople to believe you, last I checked.

What I fail to understand is whether or not you bothered to think about the general lay-out of the town, if you are actually telling the truth about your claim. You claim to be either an even-night role-blocker or an odd-night role-blocker... this marginally hints at a role-blocker who blocks on the opposite night you do.

If I truly had that role (it is safe to say I do not have a role-blocker variation whatsoever), and I saw M4yhem's claim, my first reaction would be:

Ah: it appears as if this game might have a

theme of role-blockers

.

Imagine that! And if that's true, it lends more credence to M4yhem's claim, since I don't believe I have

ever

seen anybody claim a "mystical role-blocker" with a "percentage" of being able to successfully role-block. Perhaps it's not just a

coincidence

that somebody has claimed a variation of a role-blocker role in a game where you yourself claim to have a variation of a role-blocker role.

That apparent lack of thought process you appear to have put into your vote is what makes me think you have come up with your story during the night, instead of actually thinking things through during the day.

[Thok]

What are you going on about? Rarely, if ever, does an entire scum group hold the same opinion on the same person. Any group worth their snuff often takes alternate roads, so as to leave less of a connection between themselves. Three people saying they believe you are town does not make all of them scum if you are scum. The purpose of fake-claims are to get townspeople to believe you, last I checked.

I didn't claim that they were all scum; I was claiming that there's at least one protown person who believes I'm protown.

Shorthand, I'm trying to assess the wagon against me and see who among those players is likely scum. Given that

I already know

the initial reactions of the various members of the game, I'm tryng to assess which ones are scum and which ones are town. It's clear that given my actions I appear to be an easy lynch today; I'm trying to use that information to my benefit.

As for your point about the setup, this is a mini regular game. It's not supposed to have a theme. One can easily imagine a setup that

only

has the pair of odd/even night roleblockers.

Why do you care if TSQ's vote is lazy? Scummy/not scummy I could see, but lazy?

[petroleumjelly]

As for your point about the setup, this is a mini regular game. It's not supposed to have a theme. One can easily imagine a setup that only has the pair of odd/even night roleblockers.

You're right. This

is

a Mini Regular game. It shouldn't even

have

even/odd night role-blockers in the first place, but if you are telling the truth, it sure as Hell does. Further, I don't think a game which revolved around role-blockers would necessarily be forced to go in the themed section (although so far as I'm concerned, silly variations should put games into the themed section), just like Dethy (being "Cop-themed" and all) is considered a Mini Regular.

Why do you care if TSQ's vote is lazy? Scummy/not scummy I could see, but lazy?

If you haven't noticed, I don't have very much patience for this game for multiple reasons. If I see something stupid, I'm not going to bother talking around it. TSQ's vote on M4yhem at the break of day was incredibly stupid: if it was going to remain there, I wanted to see some original reasoning.

[M4yhem]

WIFOM: Why on earth would Thok do something so blatantly scummy if he really were scum?

Because I .1 had a powerrole, and he wanted to make sure I was dead. Roleblockers aren’t a cop, or doc, but they can do the job of both in the right hands. They’re a solid role, and worth the risk to get rid of, in my opinion. He probably thought he could get out of it. Maybe he even thought someone would say the things you’re saying now.

Why on earth would a previously cautious player like Thok do something so blatently reckless if he was town? He

wouldn’t

. He isn’t town.

If I believed that M4yhem1 were scum, why would I want people commenting on your roleclaim?

Because this is a team game. You might have been ‘sure,’ but someone else could have pointed out something you missed. Which might have saved you from making a mistake.

Why would you

not

want people commenting on M4y.1’s roleclaim? Don’t you trust the other players to make their own choices? Aren’t you interested in what they have to say? Isn’t getting other people’s reactions important?

[annoyed rant]I'd be more sympathetic to your comments about killing off discussion of your role if you didn't wait until two days before the deadline to roleclaim, and didn't precede it by no lynch, followed by OMGUS, with yet another no lynch when you voted, all the while going "There's no reason to vote me! None of the issues people have brought up have any value whatsoever!"[/annoyed rant]

Oh sure, blame me for that fiasco. There WAS no reason to vote me. I still don’t understand what the hell anyone on that bandwagon was thinking. I answered every point brought against me, I told the complete truth at every stage, but NOBODY WAS WILLING TO LISTEN. I’d like to see you do any better in such circumstances, Thok. I mean, C’mon! Al hasn’t even given a reason for voting old me yet, except for ‘he was acting scummy’. Is that a proper argument? Well, is it?
I didn’t claim till the last minute because I was praying somebody would see sense.
And why does no-lynch have to be a crime? Why would scum

ever

vote no lynch, when there are some many townies to go after instead? You think you are annoyed, Thok? Take a wild guess how I feel.

So, I’m fairly sure there were some scum on that wagon. You and Al, I think makes the most sense.

In addition, I'm amused by the way that you are throwing weasel words at me while trying to vote/bus your partner.

(Partially OMGUS, partially the observation that scum are more likely to groupthink on the issue on how to deal with me after I lynched M4yhem and they have more incentive to attack me then to defend me).

At least you agree that Al is scum.

I disbelieve your claim for two reasons, Thok.
1. Your role doesn’t match with ex-my’s role, and yet the way you worded it makes you sound like you would be one of a pair. Three roleblockers in one game seems unlikely. So does having two protown roleblockers. One scum roleblocker, one town roleblocker; now that I can see.

2. Didn’t you say at some point that you thought LML thought this was a vanilla only game? You acted at the time like you believed that also, but if you really had a power role, you would have known he was wrong.

PJ- TSQ was surely joking. That’s what I assumed, which is why I ignored him.

[Thok]

2. Didn’t you say at some point that you thought LML thought this was a vanilla only game? You acted at the time like you believed that also, but if you really had a power role, you would have known he was wrong.

PJ- TSQ was surely joking. That’s what I assumed, which is why I ignored him.

I have never thought this was a vanilla only game. I dare you to find a post where I said that I believed this was a vanilla only game. I said LML believed this to be the case, which is an entirely different story.

Your attempt to cover for TSQ is noted.

Since the rest of your argument is simply repeating what PJ/you have already said, I see no benefit in repeating my response to it.

[Kelly Chen]

Vote Count

2 - Thok (Thestatusquo, M4yhem)
1 - al_kohaulec (petroleumjelly)

not voting: CrashTextDummie, pablito, al_kohaulec, Thok, mith, LuckayLuck

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch!

[pablito]

I think I'm up for a

vote: al_kohaulec

for now.

[M4yhem]

Your attempt to cover for TSQ is noted.

You’ve got to be freakin’ kidding me, Thok. This is what TSQ wrote:

Vote: Mayhem. Why won't you die, foo?

In what bizarro world is that

not

a joke?
Your attempt to distract people from yourself at any cost is noted.

I have never thought this was a vanilla only game. I dare you to find a post where I said that I believed this was a vanilla only game. I said LML believed this to be the case, which is an entirely different story.

You gave the impression, to me, that you believed him. Why else would you even mention that that’s what you thought he thought?

Since the rest of your argument is simply repeating what PJ/you have already said, I see no benefit in repeating my response to it.

Given up already, eh? This, to me, is not the reaction of an innocent man.

Pablito- Why not vote for Thok?

[pablito]

I feel more confident that al_ko may be scum - at least from my initial read.