Space Monkey Mafia: GAME OVER!


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Post Post #280 (isolation #0) » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:42 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Howdy, all! Let’s see if I can’t catch a scum or two. I have skimmed the thread before, so here are a few things I noticed.

Firstly, the MBL wagon was pretty hilarious. The people I got the weirdest vibes from on the wagon were Bird1111, Glork, and InHimShallIBe. Bird1111 for setting up the hammer (and then quietly unvoting when the wagon began wobbling), Glork for calling for the hammer, and InHim for
resetting
up the hammer after Ibby had unvoted. It would seriously be a pretty big waste of a day for Day One to be approximately one page long, even if MrBuddyLee turns out to be scum. The more talking, the more I (and others) can extract from the thread, and the more I can get a feel on all of the players in the game. Ending the day in one page is
horrible
play,
especially
in a large game, and I find it disturbing that some players seriously pondered that thought.

Of note: yes, Glork can be quite erratic in games, especially the outset of games. But there is a difference between erratic and stupid. In my opinion, Glork was being entirely stupid.
Glork, post 205 wrote:The only person I could have *really* actually imagined hammering you before somebody unvoted would have been Fritzler.
But Fritz was already on your wagon, so that wasn't going to happen. Pooky, CES, Glork, Fritz -- the four people I consider to be the most likely to do something ridiculous just for kicks -- were all on the wagon at that point.
There was little chance that you were *actually* going to die. Although I would have been quite amused had it happened.
As it happens, this statement is actually false. The people on MBL’s wagon were (in order): Twito, Ibaesha, Glork, Fritzler, Klebian, Nightson, Cogito Ergo Sum, Bird1111, [Ibby unvotes], InHimShallIBe. If I recall correctly, Pooky was on the original wagon before posts were deleted, but he was not on the ‘actual’ game wagon, so he could have easily hammered. I account this mistake more to sloppiness than to scumminess, however.

Another example of Glork not paying attention is:
Glork, Post 153 wrote:What's your point, StD?
Glork not noticing that StD was responding to InHim’s post 147 is confirming my thoughts that Glork has just been extremely sloppy this game.

Nightson’s posts throughout the game have made very little sense to me, and the interactions between Glork and Nightson (as Ibby already pointed out) make even less sense. I can believe that Glork made a mistake between Bogre and Nightson, but by that same token, I know that if
I
had made such a stupid mistake, Glork probably would have pressed me on it pretty hard. Not remembering who you are voting usually pings the scum-o-meter for me, since townspeople
should
be putting some thought into their votes, whereas scum tend to not put as much thought into votes.

This is the fourth example of stupidity/sloppiness on behalf of Glork. He seriously needs to get his act together.

And wow, I can’t believe nobody hit on this post:
Nightson, Post 176 wrote:
bird1111 wrote:I'm here, and am still wondering why there are votes on Glork for normal early day 1 behavior.
You're getting the most votes and this is all you have to say? Newsflash, Glork only has half the votes you do.
vote: bird
And now he's got slightly less then half.

Inhim I don't find suspicious.

Still kinda suspicious of StD, but not enough for a vote right now.
Big FoS: Nightson
.

Is nobody reading the thread before they post? At the time Bird1111 made the quoted post, he had
one vote
, and that was from Twito. It was as a
result
of that post that he garnered votes. This post is screaming to me that Nightson was trying to find a reason to vote for Bird1111, and in doing so, he managed to quote Bird completely out of context so his vote would look justified, while also throwing suspicion on Bird.

Reading, reading…

I do not like InHim’s change of vote from MBL to Bird1111, accompanied with “HAPPY?” As Glork notes, it does have a very deadline-lynch vibe to it.

Thought I had one other note… ah.
Klebian, Post 64 wrote: I don't really get why all these votes are on me, now. One random qft because I thought that his post made a lot of sense and I agreed with it totally and now I have 3 votes. Strange.
I don’t like this post either: it seems way too worried about very few votes too early in the game. As it were, I would suggest reading all of klebian’s posts in isolation: I don’t like
any
of them. He has simply followed the two biggest wagons of the game (MrBuddyLee and Bird1111), has not given any reasoning of his own, and seems to be fading into the background far too much for my liking.

So, let me review my own post…

Suspicious

Nightson
Klebian
InHimShallIBe
Bird1111

In the Corner Wearing a Dunce Cap

Glork

Unvote: Glork, Vote: Nightson
. His play overall has been confusing, his votes have been coming at odd junctures, he seems to be trying to stay out of the forefront of discussion, and his ‘justification’ for his Bird1111 vote was completely incorrect. Seeing as three of the four people I find suspicious are voting for the fourth, although I didn’t like Bird1111’s play, I am much more concerned with the composition of the players on his wagon.

PPE: I <3 you too, Glork.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #281 (isolation #1) » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:57 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

... Oh, for goodness' sake.

Unvote: Nightson
. For as much as I call Glork out for being sloppy, my quote of Nightson was also sloppy. I had thought Nightson was quoting Bird's post 130, I didn't even see post 164. *grumbles* This is why people need to include post numbers when they quote things.

This doesn't mean I suddenly approve of Nightson, mind you, but it does mean my biggest bone with him was due to me reading through the game too quickly. I'll try Door Number Two, then.
Vote: Klebian
.

... and now I just realized the deadline is one day. I feel totally ineffectual. :(
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Post Post #290 (isolation #2) » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:07 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

To respond to those people asking me to vote for Bird1111:
PJ wrote:Seeing as three of the four people I find suspicious are voting for the fourth, although I didn’t like Bird1111’s play, I am much more concerned with the composition of the players on his wagon.
If there are no other reasonable alternatives by Friday morning, I may indeed vote Bird1111, but I would rather poke at some other people while I still have the chance. I also note that Glork, MBL, and I all have Nightson on our list.

Unvote: Klebian, Vote: Nightson
. Perhaps we can get something going.

I too would suggest a claim from Bird1111 at this time, considering the placement of the deadline, although he should simultaneously give a defense/response to those people voting for him. I would much rather him defend before even considering claiming, but that does not seem possible here.

Oh, and <3 MBL.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #328 (isolation #3) » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:48 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

For crying out loud – you people need to read my posts in context. And actually
read
this post, I don’t write them solely for my own amusement.

Since I know you are all skimmers, I'll high-light a few things in blue.

I replaced into the game two days before deadline: I was only able to give the game about one read through. What I saw was a bandwagon on MBL go to lynch -1 at the start of day, and after reading through MBL’s posts, I didn’t find him very scummy. With that line of thinking, I tried to look for the worst people who jumped on his wagon, as I already mentioned in Post 280. For me, those people were Bird1111, Glork, and InHimShallIBe.
InHimShallIBe wrote:Oh, and I just reviewed PJ's posts. In summary, "Hmmm... I'm suspicious of bird, and he has a big bandwagon, but, nah... I won't vote for him."
You claim to have read my posts, but:
PJ wrote:If there are no other reasonable alternatives by Friday morning, I may indeed vote Bird1111, but I would rather poke at some other people while I still have the chance.
Considering I had just replaced into the game, I wanted to poke at new people before deadline came.
I would have voted for Bird1111 if the alternative was No-Lynch, since there are very few situations where I would agree with a No-Lynch.
I was concerned with the Bird1111-wagon (as I mentioned at least twice yesterday) because ¾ of my top suspects [Nightson, Klebian, and InHimShallIBe] were
all
voting for the 4th suspect. The bandwagon itself smelled of opportunistic scum, so far as I was concerned, so although I agreed Bird1111 did not look very good, I
also
did not like the composition of his bandwagon.
Thok wrote: I can support a PJ wagon also. As well as what people have mentioned about PJ, I also found some of Ibaesha's posts scummy; she voted for MBL (not so bad), then moved to bird when MBL was at -1 (deflecting a bandwagon from a strong member of the scum to a weaker member of the scum), then started going after Glork/Nightson.
dahen wrote: Sure, PJ could be something. As I said, Ibby shifted from MBL to Bird. If you think she would double-distance like that, I'm fine with a PJ vote.
Try putting yourself in Ibaesha’s shoes for a moment before you try to construe her actions into being something they are not. Ibby and I seem to think very much alike much of the time, so I have no problems whatsoever ‘defending’ her actions yesterday.

1.) Firstly, the game begins with eight votes on MBL, and for no discernable reason [other than for the sake of bandwagoning]. She finds it funny, but then Glork shouts “HAMMAH HAMMAH!”. This is wrong on multiple counts:

->
a.
There are multiple newer players in the forum who might have thought Glork was being serious (which he even seems to imply he
was
)
->
b.
There are some experienced players who might have hammered MBL just for the heck of it
->
c.
If “a” or “b”, the day would have had
zero
discussion, and there would have been practically no information to work off while going into Night Two and even Day Two.


So what does Ibby do? She backs off the wagon, taking away the opportunity for somebody to hammer and prematurely end Day One. And that’s
exactly
what I would do. I am super surprised that people are saying Ibby was trying to “deflect the wagon”. Ibby had three choices.
Read the following 3 points
:

->
a.
Leave her vote on MBL, therefore allowing him to stay at Lynch -1 territory. This would be awful, awful play, and I would find Ibby
more
suspicious if she had surreptitiously tried to silently keep her vote on somebody so close to lynch.
->
b.
She can unvote MBL, so as to preempt a hammering vote, and do nothing more.
This would be very un-Ibbylike
. When Ibby unvotes somebody, she wants to make sure her vote is
on somebody else
, so she can still directly influence the game and help hunt for scum. If Ibby had simply unvoted and not revoted, I would find Ibby
more
suspicious.
->
c.
She can unvote MBL,
and
present an alternative vote by searching for the worst person in the game up to that point. I agree with her that the worst player at that point in time was Bird1111 for placing MBl at lynch -1.
I still think this was her most optimal move possible as town
.

Not only did Ibaesha successfully make sure Day One did not end prematurely, but she in no way “kept the spotlight” off of MBL (thereby assuring he would not be able to slide under the radar), but also fingered a second scum by voting for Bird1111
. Calling that “scummy” is absolutely preposterous.

Furthermore, it is noteworthy to look at the voting pattern on MBL, as well as votes made after MBL had reached 8 votes:

Twito votes MrBuddyLee (1)
Ibaesha votes MrBuddyLee (2)
Glork votes MrBuddyLee (3)
Fritzler votes MrBuddyLee (4)
Klebian votes MrBuddyLee (5)
Nightson votes MrBuddyLee (6)
Cogito Ergo Sum unvotes Phoebus (2) and votes MrBuddyLee (7)
Bird1111 unvotes Bogre (0) and votes MrBuddyLee ( 8 )
Ibaesha unvotes MrBuddyLee (7) and votes Bird1111 (1)

InHimShallIBe votes MrBuddyLee ( 8 )
Save the Dragons unvotes Phoebus (1) and votes Glork (2)
Glork unvotes MrBuddyLee (7) and votes Bogre (1)

Save the Dragons unvotes Glork (1) and votes Bird1111 (2)

A number of things happened.

1.) Ibaesha (correctly) unvoted, and managed to finger a second scum, Bird1111.
2.) InHimShallIBe replaced the lynch -1 vote.
3.) Save the Dragons votes for Glork (funny how nobody says
this
is an attempt at “deflection”).
4.) Glork was the second person (after Ibaesha) to take MBL out of the hammering range,
after which people start unvoting MBL
. It was a combination of Glork and Ibaesha who managed to take the wagon off of MBL.

5.) Save the Dragons unvotes Glork to add a second vote to Bird1111 (again, nobody has tried calling this a “deflection” vote either, so I have noticed).

Once again: if Ibby had not "deflected" the wagon off of MBL, he would have stayed at eight votes indefinitely until hammered.
If Day One was going to continue, SOMEBODY was going to unvote MBL. Simply because it was Ibaesha, it does not make her (me) scum.


PPE:
Glork wrote: What gets me about Ibby isn't even the move from MBL to Bird; it's the way in which she attacked me afterwards. I've had a scumtell on Ibby for a while that when she's scum, she gets very tunnel-visioned on one or two people, to the point where she looks for excuses to continue voting/attacking them. I definitely got that vibe from her when she attacked me early in D1.
You really
aren’t
paying attention to this game. Try actually looking at Ibby’s posts instead of
saying
you’ve looked at Ibby’s posts.

Ibby only had 12 posts, and in those twelve posts, she managed to finger or vote for:
1.) MrBuddyLee
2.) Bird1111
3.) klebian
4.) Glork
5.) Nightson

That is hardly what I call “tunnel vision”. Try comparing Ibby’s posts to InHim’s posts. Seriously. Click the “view all posts” function and tell me what you see. Ibby was by no means focusing on one person. Simply because she
remained suspicious of one person
, that does not mean she was
focusing on one person
.
Glork wrote: Yesterday, PJ voiced suspicions against four people: Bird, Nightson, Klebian, and inHim. He voted Klebian and Nightson, gave a half-hearted explanation why he chose them over either of the other two, and pretty much ignored the rest of the situation.
Yesterday, I only had about one or two real-life days to do anything. I was not “ignoring the situation”; I was very much aware of the situation. I was willing to hammer Bird1111 if it looked like the alternative was No-Lynch. There was pretty much no way I could have ever successfully got a competing wagon out of Nightson had I tried, and to think I would seriously try to “stop” the Bird1111 by employing such a weak strategy is bogus. I believe I have covered my explanation of this (so far as it is ‘necessary’) throughout this post.

As it is, MBL turning up scum invalidates a few of my suspicions from Day One, so I will clearly have to read through the game again with this new information in mind when I can find time later.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #331 (isolation #4) » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:21 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Thok wrote:
petroleumjelly wrote:Try putting yourself in Ibaesha’s shoes for a moment before you try to construe her actions into being something they are not. Ibby and I seem to think very much alike much of the time, so I have no problems whatsoever ‘defending’ her actions yesterday.

1.) Firstly, the game begins with eight votes on MBL, and for no discernable reason [other than for the sake of bandwagoning]. She finds it funny, but then Glork shouts “HAMMAH HAMMAH!”. This is wrong on multiple counts:
From what I can tell, the MBL wagon dated back to a bunch of posts that disappeared when the first crash happened and made the game disappear. I don't know the full details (since I obviously haven't read any of the posts that disappeared before the crash happened), but the MBL wagon was not out of nowhere.
From what I can remember, even before the crash, the wagon on MBL didn't have an extraordinarily strong basis.

If somebody would like to explain the MBL-wagon Day One, I would appreciate it, but from what I saw, there was no basis whatsoever.
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Post Post #336 (isolation #5) » Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:45 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

A few questions for you, InHim:

1.) Why should I specifically have voted Bird1111? He was going to be lynched pretty much whatever happened: if my vote was necessary to make sure the town didn't end up with a No-Lynch, I would have moved it there. As it happens, my vote was not necessary.

2.) What "advantage" would I gain by not voting Bird1111 if he were my scum partner? (WIFOM, yeah, yeah, but I want to see InHim's answer).

3.) Do you honestly think I would say I would vote Bird1111 if it was necessary, but then
refuse
to do so if it became clear that nobody else was going to hammer? As town or as scum, that would be incredibly stupid.
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Post Post #375 (isolation #6) » Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:59 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork, I'm not going to read over all of Ibby's games to try to find a counter-example to your claimed "tell", seeing as I'm not Ibby and I don't pay attention to her gameplay in every game I've been with her or read with her in it. I
will
defend her actions, but will not try to respond to a "tell" I don't believe I have seen you try to use in any other game, and one of which I already
know
is incorrect, seeing as I'm not scum. Personally, I thought you were deserving of Ibby's posts on Day One - you looked scummy, and yet were not receiving votes.

So far as reading Ibby's posts in context, I think that only goes to show that she wasn't trying to use your so-called "tunnel vision" - you did
multiple
things I (and Ibby) found to be scummy and needed to be pointed out.

1.) You asked for a hammer on MBL on
page one
with absolutely no discussion on the table. Ibby hit on this.
2.) You claimed that people should be voting Nightson while
you
were voting for Bogre. This is highly unusual, seeing as townspeople
should
remember who they find scummy and who they are voting for. Ibby hit on this.
3.) You tried to shake Ibby off by claiming that you are often "off-the-wall" at the beginning of games. Ibby responded (and truthfully) that she was willing to overlook it
at first
, but that you pushed the limits of what slack she was willing to give.
4.) Your interactions with Nightson on Day One were
weird
. I thought the
exact
same thing when I saw it. I honestly haven't thought of a good reason for some of the exchanges you had with Nightson yesterday.

I don't think it's that she was "going out of her way to try to justify her vote on Glork": it was definitely more the fact that you kept doing things to
deserve
a vote. Seeing you try to construe her actions as being such is striking me as an attempt to downplay your actions, whether you are doing so consciously or not.

In fact (as you probably know), I have had multiple conversations with Ibby out of games. One topic we both were annoyed with was the fact that
both
of us (both in ScumChat and forum play) have a tendency to be suspicious of Glork
early
in games when he is scum, but then
get talked out of it later
. So far as I can tell, the fact that Ibby did not back off immediately seems to be the reason Glork is voting for me now. I haven't decided whether or not I think your vote on me is scummy or not, however. I still need to get to reading this game again.
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Post Post #377 (isolation #7) » Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:28 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:My reasons are not "Ibby did not back off from me," contrary to what you seem to be stating.
Please explain this to me:
Glork wrote:My reasons are meta/hunch towards Ibby based on the manner in which she went after
(or more importantly, stayed on) me
, the bit of interaction you had with MBL, and your behavior towards Bird.
"Ibby did not back off from Glork", so far as I'm concerned, is equivalent to "Ibby stayed on Glork". If you meant something else, you are being too vague for me, and you will have to go into more detail.

As for your other "reasons":

1.) My interactions with MBL were (admittedly) because I thought he was pro-town, and I did not like the voters on his early wagon in particular. I'm not going to act like I thought otherwise.

2.) Could you go into more detail with my "behavior towards Bird", then? I have already explained why I did not vote Bird immediately, and I don't particularly enjoy repeating myself. 3/4 of my top suspects were voting for the fourth suspect: that, to me, made his wagon smell scum-driven. I
did
want to gauge reactions to see what people thought of Nightson, but he was not really a viable alternative that late on Day One. I pretty much came into the game where the lynch had already been decided, and if it was necessary, I was willing to vote him if the alternative was No-Lynch since I also had found Bird1111 moderately scummy (for his placement of his
vote on MBL
, as it happens). There is not much more I can say on that subject.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #396 (isolation #8) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:40 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

For goodness' sake. I
still
have not reread this game yet,
please
do not hammer. I would like to post more updated thoughts before nighttime.
Glork wrote:I already know you're not going to like this, but... I can't really. It's one of those intangible hunch/gut things. It's just in the language (manner) Ibby used. Her posts felt forced/contrived.
Tell me, Glork. How often is Ibby accused of making forced/contrived posts? I might not take notes on her gameplay, but I have seen her accused of
this
enough times that I would certainly hope you have picked up on that.

And uh... that's an interesting claim, there, InHim. A few questions:

1.) What is your complete role name?
2.) Why didn't you make a Night 1 choice?
3.) Does your role in any way infer that there are scum role-blockers?
4.) Why did you target Pooky Night 2?
5.) Is there any flavor as to how people
would
be role-blocked?
6.) Is there any flavor as to how a mechanic would be able to
un
-role-block?
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #404 (isolation #9) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:29 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Yes, Pooky, InHim's claim looks pretty fake to me, too. It relies on the existence of a role-blocker, and furthermore, it seems fairly pointless unless there is a
scum
role-blocker. Also, if one thought there were a scum role-blocker, I can't think of any reason why he wouldn't have made a Night One choice, since it is less likely he would have ended up undoing a town's
random
role-blocking of some power role. Simply trying to think of flavor as to how a "mechanic" could "undo" a role-blocking certainly doesn't come immediately, although I could speculate how it would be possible.

Still no point in not questioning him while he's still alive, however.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #405 (isolation #10) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:40 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Okay, reread is finished.

Firstly, Glork, I have to disagree
even more
that Ibby was using “tunnel-vision”. I would like people to read Post 83 up until Post 102. I don’t consider that “tunnel-vision” whatsoever: that is definitely pursuing somebody who
just did something scummy
. If Ibby says Glork was scum the last time she saw Glork try to pull what he did in Post 83/85, I’m glad she didn’t just let it drop for the remainder of her posts. Ignoring something like that is a good way to let Glork get away with whatever he wants (which is apparently one of his goals: to see just how stupid he can be in the same game and pull it off without getting lynched for it).

Immediately after that debacle, Glork immediately has a preposterous exchange of posts with Nightson, starting from Post 116 to Post 125. Once again,
a short string of posts
where Ibby is pursuing Glork for being scummy
again
.

Vote: Glork
. I can’t believe you are calling that tunnel-vision. At all. Were you expecting Ibby to do nothing?

After I replace into the game, he comes up with a “tell” on Ibby
after Ibby was no longer posting
(as she announced was going to happen in Post 161), so she could not try and refute him. Now he has been pushing on this “tell”, and when I asked him to clarify on the difference between “not getting off of Glork” and “Ibby stayed on Glork”, he responds:
Glork wrote:I already know you're not going to like this, but... I can't really. It's one of those intangible hunch/gut things. It's just in the language (manner) Ibby used. Her posts felt forced/contrived.
He can’t. I think I’ve caught him trying to make up a false “tell” on Ibby in order to push a lynch on me, whether it be today, or later in the game. He also claims that Ibby was “going out of her way to justify her Glork-vote”, when it more the fact that Glork kept continually doing things which deserved a vote.

As if it were even necessary, this post interests me very much, now:
InHimShallIBe, Post 139 wrote:Oh, those stalling lynches... the tales they tell.
This was during the time votes were coming off of MBL and onto Bird1111. I have caught scum trying to do these types of posts before: they try to make the new wagon look bad.

This makes me double-think Zindaras’ theory. It is more than possible that we are dealing with InHim + Bird1111 scum, and that
MrBuddyLee was not part of the scum-group
, at least at the time. He could have been a traitor waiting to be recruited, or perhaps part of a different scum group. Both InHim and Bird1111 put MBL at lynch -1, which goes against them being partners, and InHim tried to direct the lynch
towards
MBL (who I would consider a strong scum-partner) and
away
from Bird1111 (who I would consider a weak scum-partner). Also, MBL went out of his way to slap his vote onto InHim in Post 156. I don’t think it is appropriate to make decisions based on this theory, but I do think it is worth enough merit that I will consider it a more than viable possibility. I’m glad Zindie brought it up.

Oh, special note. People should pay attention to Post 188, which is once again, by Glork. Here, he:

1.) Attacks Ibby after she had already announced she would be absent
2.) Calls StD for a “false dilemma” when StD says at least one of “InHim + Bird1111” are scum. Hmm. Bird1111 has already turned up as scum, and InHim certainly looks like he will be turning up scum. Now I see that both InHim and Glork are attacking me/Ibby. I’m doubting this is coincidental, at this point.

Also, very noteworthy: if MBL was not part of the scum-group, it would
also
fit in with an InHim + Bird + Glork scumgroup. I think this game is going to be a piece of cake, at this rate.

Actually, another possibility just occurred to me. It could be the case that MBL was not scum at all, but was instead targeted by a “scum janitor”, or whatever they’re called. In other words, a role which makes pro-town people turn up as scum when they die. After Glork went to all that trouble to connect me to MBL yesterday, then MBL is only death last night turning up “Gorilla”, and then Glork and InHim both start attacking me as soon as the gates open while trying to squash speculation on why scum supposedly died on a night with one nightkill. Definitely thinking something is up, here.

I’m still a little weirded out by Nightson’s play and interactions with Glork, but I will consider him a tertiary target at this time. I also had a few vibes from Klebian and Dahen, but there appears to be plenty of other people to pursue my thoughts for now.

People I think are Scum-Scums

InHimShallIBe
Glork
Nightson

People I would keep an eye on

Klebian
Dahen

People Who are almost Certainly Town

Save the Dragons

I haven’t had very strong “town” readings on anybody, except StD. I would rather go after people I think are scummy than try to find people I think are town anyways.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #408 (isolation #11) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:53 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Why are you making up flavor for InHim, Thok? I asked him questions so that he could answer them. What do
you
think of his claim?
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Post Post #414 (isolation #12) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:09 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:One thing, PJ. I've never heard of a "Janitor" role before. Could you point me to a post/game/wiki entry that further describes the role? The way I'm reading it right now, having a Janitor is potentially broken, unless it's a one-use ability.
Because otherwise, if I were scum and I had that role, I'd pretty much be going "Janitor X, Kill X" every night to get everybody thinking that Gorillas are town and that Space Monkeys are actually scum.
No, I cannot link you to a finished game with a "Janitor" role. I have seen it twice on a forum I used to play on, but the purpose of that site is not to play mafia games, so after a few months of not being posted in when finished, the games disappear entirely. I don't entirely remember whether or not it was one-shot or multiple-shot, although I would certainly hope it was one-shot. The possibility just occured to me while I was writing up the post that we could potentially be dealing with a similar role, so I thought it was worth mentioning.

However, the second half of your comment there disturbs me greatly, seeing as:
Mr Stoofer wrote:You must defeat the brutal Gorillas. The SS Simian must not fall into their hands. The safety of the Galaxy depends on you!
There is simply no way the town would think that "Gorillas are town" and "Monkeys are scum". I'm pretty sure people know their own roles. Monkeys know they are town, and no amount of dead gorillas would get me to think otherwise. If there were constant gorilla deaths, I would be worrying about a set-up with a
lot
of scum, or as I mentioned, the possibility of a janitor-type role.

PPE:
InHim wrote:What about that quote you've made, PJ, is making the birdwagon look bad? I was directing my comment at the MBLwagon. But maybe that's your point, and I'm just not getting your argument.
Exactly my point. It may be that you were trying to keep people on the MBLwagon (and thus off the Bird1111 wagon).
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Post Post #418 (isolation #13) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:31 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Well, it is technically "possible" for scum groups to alternate kills (although the only time I remember this suggestion being made at the moment was from ralph merridewscum in Monopoly Mafia at Grey Labyrinth, so I doubt this is the case). It is also possible that kills have been blocked/doctored/redirected/run-up-against-unnightkillability/foregone for various reasons.
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Post Post #421 (isolation #14) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:37 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Well, if you think a Vig killed MBL, you still have to believe that the scum group(s) have missed
at least
one night-kill. As it is, one person dying on Night Two and turning up scum is already terribly unlikely, so
something
strange must have happened.
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Post Post #423 (isolation #15) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:41 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Yeah, you're right Thok. Thinking about games and tossing out possibilities is scummy.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #424 (isolation #16) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:44 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

@ Thok: Any particular reason it took you four posts to point out I was trying to determine the nature of the scum-groups in Post 405?
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Post Post #428 (isolation #17) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Actually, another question.

InHim, how will you come up on death? "Space Monkey Mechanic"? "Space Monkey Un-Role-Blocker"? In other words, would we have been able to determine your role at all if you had died before claiming?
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Post Post #461 (isolation #18) » Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:06 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:Huh... interesting to note that PJ seems to share these exact same opinions.

I'm going to pull a little WIFOM out of my hat and ask PJ a question:
Do you think that inHim, Glork, and possibly Nightson would so distinctly align their suspicions on Day One as scum, and continue to hold the same voting bloc even going into the second day?
I do think you [Glork] and InHim would potentially align "suspicions" in a game. A couple points to make: InHim didn't really have a 'suspicion' on Day One: he just randomly pushed on MBL. To show:
InHim wrote:Yeah, MBL was the flavor of Day 1. At least, that's how I saw it. I think I spelled out the reasons that I was so adamant in seeing his lynch to completion.
So far as those reasons go, I find:
InHim wrote:
It's way too simple to vote someone then come up with a reason later. You had no possible motivation for your MBL vote, and then you start building a case.
My only case has been the collapse of the lynch. Nothing else, really, I don't think.
"Collapsing lynches" don't seem inherently scummy to me. Also, considering there would have been some distancing in posts such as Post 109, and Post 114, I could definitely see the two of you working together.

My theory is furthered by the fact that I first climbed up to six votes today. After defending, votes started going towards InHim. Either through strange circumstance or plan, you [Glork] then started your attack on me while InHim was being run up. I can
definitely
see the two of you working together, without a doubt. I have seen scum both take similar agendas, so that sort of WIFOM does not work on me so much (as it did, for example, when LMLscum and Thokscum both attacked CES in Verbose Mafia back-to-back).

So far as Nightson goes, I don't think he
has
been "aligned with your suspicions". Check his voting record: he has just had a few weird interactions with you, while throwing his vote around without reason. In fact, today he has stated:
Nightson wrote:Don't like the PJ wagon or the inhim wagon.
Which is in fact just the opposite of
both
of your expressed opinions.

In short: yes, I could still see the three of you being a scum-group.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #463 (isolation #19) » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:36 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

*shrug*

I would like to think if you were ever Masons with Rainbow Brite, you wouldn't have been bone-headed enough to make it obvious by the end of Day One in Band Mafia. Silly Glork.
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Post Post #467 (isolation #20) » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:41 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Would somebody mind unvoting InHim for the time being? I don't want somebody dropping the hammer when there is much discussion to be had. This is one of my few games where discussion seems to be actually occuring, and I would like it to continue.
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Post Post #487 (isolation #21) » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:19 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Wow. I saw the Day Scene about fifteen minutes ago, then took a shower. Considering Zindaras made the "janitor" theory seem more likely yesterday, I am willing to toss that one out the window.

I'm thinking there are two scum-groups at the moment, and that either they alternate killing nights, or something has stopped exactly one group from a kill each night. Group #1 probably consists of Bird1111 and InHim, and Group #2 probably consists of MBL and Zindie. If the alternate killing theory is right, we might be able to stop a nightkill if we lynch right today.

I'm a bit lost in terms of scum groups, but I don't mind a
Vote: Cogito Ergo Sum
. I still haven't forgotten about Señor Glork, however.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #488 (isolation #22) » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:20 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Actually, alternate killing groups and Zindie + MBL doesn't work, because then they wouldn't have been killed on back-to-back nights. I'll have to give this more thought.
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Post Post #524 (isolation #23) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:46 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

I agree. I'm confused about Thok.

Vote: Glork
in the meantime.
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Post Post #527 (isolation #24) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:41 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:What's to be confused about? I understand perfectly. If you're part of the uninformed majority and you look back at yetserday, you should understand, too.
I'm apparently uninformed, that's for sure. Otherwise I might understand why you are implying that yesterday somehow makes perfect sense. I guess the whole "Thok led a mislynch on CES" and then calling it "excellent" confuses me.

As for yesterday's lynch, it looks like a mislynch to me, in a town which I am noticing is prone to bandwagoning. Last I checked, we're supposed to be lynching gorilla-scum. Are you trying to imply that gorillas
are not
scum, and that space monkeys
are
?
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Post Post #530 (isolation #25) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:11 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

You know what? This game makes no sense to me. I will probably regret doing this later, and I'll probably be the butt end of many jokes for do so, but this game has me confused enough that I don't much care. The nightkills (or lack thereof) make no sense, the lynches make no sense, and everything about yesterday and the start of today makes no sense. I've reread the flavor of the game, I've reread my role, and I've reread the game. All I can hope for is that Stoofer has an extremely messed up mind and is completely screwing with me, but more likely I will just be lynched immediately and feel stupid about it afterwards.

I am a Gorilla Soldier. My role explicitly states that I am scum, which is making me want to delete this post as I'm writing it. I was somehow separated from the Gorillas, have become subsequently lost, and I have no ammunition, and I have been waiting for the Gorillas to find me for four nights. I have no night choices whatsoever. I have asked Stoofer quite a few questions about my role, and he has refused to answer any of them.

If I am indeed scum, then whoever is in the scum group has got to be completely stupid. I am getting the feeling that both MBL and Zindaras had the exact same role as I do, which is why they were nightkilled - because the scum didn't know they were scum. And this is despite the fact that It became pretty obvious to me that Zindaras very likely had my role when he started speculating with me about Traitor roles.

And then he was killed, even though any self-respecting scum group should have tried to "find him". I tried to leave an obvious hint at the start of yesterday:
PJ, Post 487 wrote:
I'm a bit lost in terms of scum groups
, but I don't mind a Vote: Cogito Ergo Sum. I still haven't forgotten about Señor Glork, however.
I could not think of any other way to get across that it appeared (and still appears) that I am part of a scum group, and that I am
lost
, and hence needed to be
found
. If the gorillas are scum as my role leads me to believe, then they are clearly paying no attention and deserve and lose anyways, since it appears to me that the traitor roles have somehow turned into constant nightkill targets.

Unvote: Glork
.

The most I can make of this is that the Space Monkeys are actually the informed minority, and that Gorillas are in fact the uninformed majority, because I am sure as heck uninformed, and if the scum have had four nights to search for me (and seemingly MBL and Zindaras) and still haven't successfully done so even though I have been talking about traitors for two straight days and leaving a blatant hint yesterday, it might be because there
is
no "group of Gorillas" searching for anybody.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #531 (isolation #26) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:21 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Of course, even if Gorillas are the uninformed majority, Stoofer's flavor makes absolutely no sense. For example:
Stoofer wrote:You are the surviving crew of the SS Simian. You are all that stand between the Gorillas and Galactic domination. You must make a last, desperate stand on the Ship’s bridge, to save the Galaxy. Although you face only a small number of the Gorillas, they are armed and well organised, while you have no weapons. The only way to defeat them is to use your combined strength to force them into the airlock one at a time. That would be hard enough at the best of times. But to make matters worse, the fog of battle means you cannot even see clearly who is a Space Monkey and who is Gorilla.
1.) This explicitly says there is a "small number" of Gorillas
2.) This explicitly says that the Gorillas "are organized" (which is definitely not true)
3.) This explicitly says that Space Monkeys do not have weapons (which goes against an informed minority of Space Monkeys)
4.) This explicity says that the only way Space Monkeys can kill Gorillas are to force them out of the airlock (which also makes no sense, since two Gorillas have already been nightkilled)

Either way I look at it, Stoofer is lying in terms of flavor. So meh.
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Post Post #532 (isolation #27) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:23 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

chamber wrote:roflmao he jsut claimed scum
Try posting in games you're "playing in", Chamber. Like Old Maid.
I have deleted chamber's intrusive post - Stoofer
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Post Post #534 (isolation #28) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:15 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Oh, thank goodness.

As for Post 414, it should be pretty obvious. I "knew" that the reason "scum" continually kept getting nightkilled was because they were Traitors, and the scum group kept targeting them. Of course I shot you down: if you were part of the "gorilla scum group" and really thought I was scum, you would have tried to recruit me by that time. Since no such thing happened, I figured you were "town" (i.e. a Space Monkey), hence somebody who needed to die... if I could lynch you, all the better. I was going to try to shoot you down no matter what you said.

That said, yes: I
was
trying to keep the lynches rolling from Bird -> InHim -> Glork. Because I thought I was "scum", and I was sure you were a Space Monkey by that time.
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Post Post #535 (isolation #29) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:27 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

And I have a feeling it is going to be insanely difficult at this point to determine who they Space Monkeys are, at least with the wagons from the previous days (although I admit Masterchief seems like a good start, remember D3). If all the townspeople were told they were scum, they were probably acting like scum. Furthermore, if all the townspeople were scum, they were probably trying to spread misinformation themselves (like I am thinking both myself and Zindaras did).

At least this is helping to explain the fact that everybody is so bandwagony - because they are just trying to get days as over as soon as possible so that they might be "found" by their scum group at night.

I guess I can try to give this game an "honest" reread. Stoofer is seriously messed up.
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Post Post #540 (isolation #30) » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:27 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Alive List wrote:
dahen

Fritzler
Glork

klebian
Masterchief
replacing Twomz

Nightson
petroleumjelly
replacing ibaesha

Phoebus
PookytheMagicalBear
Save the Dragons
Thok
replacing Bogre

Twito
To be completely frank, I would not be opposed to a revealing of investigations from Thok if 2 (possibly 3) of his investigations do not cross over with the 4 people I have high-lighted in red, who I believe to be Gorillas. I believe dahen's crumb, Thok looks about as town (or scum, whatever) as you can get, and Glork's suspicions from yesterday seem reasonable with his subsequent explanation today (concerning my own Post 414, in particular).

Since the day just started, however, I would still say that Thok should hold off his investigations until later, if he chooses to reveal them. Not to be arrogant, but I'm assuming Thok has investigated at least one of myself or Glork by this time, so if all he is going to add is one person, I would rather him keep it to himself for the time being.

If we can get the group narrowed down to 6 people I can see as Space Monkeys, this game ought to be a breeze.
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Post Post #543 (isolation #31) » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:06 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

You people
do
realize that claiming Gorilla Soldier tells everybody you are claiming vanilla? You are practically throwing scum information at this point, as if they didn't already have an advantage for most of the game.
klebian wrote:Well, I'm a soldier as well. Unfortunately, unlike dahen, I HAVEN'T been dropping hints throughout the game, because I don't consider myself a likley nightkill, and I also didn't think the gorillas knew that they were looking for someone, so I didn't think there's much one can do to drop hints when the person you're dropping them for doesn't have a clue...
Interesting. Klebian, please clarify something for me. You say you have a Traitor role, but you also say you didn't think the scum were looking for you. Question:

How did you suppose to ever be reunited with your Gorilla Group if they weren't looking for you?
klebian wrote:PJ is obviously confirmed, since he was first to claim...
Although I will not dispute that I am a Gorilla, that's a dangerous attitude. It is more than possible that the scum were given the Gorilla Soldier role PM (if they are all uniform).

I've been giving the possibility of Godfathers/Millers a thinking, and have come to the conclusion that if we're dealing with that sort of role, Stoofer has really screwed us. I would certainly think the advantage of having all the townspeople thinking they were scum (and thus wanting to lynch faster, even perhaps forcing townspeople to fake-claim [InHim's claim still looks fake to me]) waiting to be recruited was huge enough for him to forego using Cop-immunity.

It does not even appear that we are told the nature of dead roles, and I am starting to wonder if Thok was on the right track for the N1 kill - it may have been "prearranged" simply to confirm to the Gorillas that they are indeed, scum, and that they began the game with the "advantage" of having killed the Doctor!

Of course, if there is a Space Monkey Godfather, I would certainly hope they would be revealed as a "Space Monkey Godfather". But there lies the problem: if the point of the set-up is to continually make the Gorillas think they were scum, Stoofer
would not
ever put down "Space Monkey Godfather" or "Space Monkey Goon" and so on, because that would give it away. And since I think it would be drastically unfair to not reveal to the town when/if they have killed the Godfather, that leads me to believe the chances of such a role in this game particularly unlikely.
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Post Post #544 (isolation #32) » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:47 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Hunh. I was changing the colors in my voting records (first time I've had to do
that
) and did notice the Day Three votes for CES. Day Three was so short, in fact, I will just quote the whole thing.
Day Three Votes wrote:
Thok votes Cogito Ergo Sum (1)

PetroleumJelly votes Cogito Ergo Sum (2)

Glork votes PetroleumJelly (1)
Glork FoS: Masterchief (I)
Glork unvotes PetroleumJelly (0) and votes Cogito Ergo Sum (3)

Dahen votes Cogito Ergo Sum (4)

Save the Dragons votes Cogito Ergo Sum (5)
Twito votes Masterchief (1)
Masterchief votes Twito (1)
PookytheMagicalBear votes Cogito Ergo Sum (6)
Klebian FoS: dahen (I) and FoS: Glork (I) and FoS: StD (I)
Fritzler votes Cogito Ergo Sum (7) LYNCH
Glork only gets orange because I am more sure that Thok and Dahen are Gorillas than he is. After skimming his posts, I could definitely see him acting similarly to his play this game if he were actually a Space Monkey. He's prolly a Gorilla, but I'm more confident of those in red.

It is unfortunate that yesterday was so incredibly short, since that was (other than today) the turning point in the game, and that's when the Space Monkeys were probably panicking that one of their own Space Monkeys was being run up. I would
think
the scum would consider busing after noting that all four of the first voters on CES are people I think to be Gorillas (Thok, PJ, Glork, Dahen was the order).

Notably, I had called StD obviously town earlier, simply because he seemed to be fingering Gorillas left and right. That's taking a double-meaning for me now. His "Bird + InHim > 0 Scum" post comes the fastest to my mind, in that he may have known both of them would come up Gorillas, hence "scum", which would make him look better so long as the town was left in the dark about the nature of the game. I would think he would be smart enough to distance after watching four Gorillas straight vote for CES if he were a Space Monkey. Of course, I would expect him to bandwagon even if he is a Gorilla. *sigh* This whole scum-town mechanic is really screwing with me.

The Masterchief/Twito thing may have been intended as a diversion, but... hrm. I haven't decided.

Klebian, in addition to my earlier question, could you please explain your hesitation on hammering CES in more detail and rampant FoS's (instead of a vote on somebody else)?
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #546 (isolation #33) » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:59 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

I don't consider that an advantage (if you are trying to imply that, although you have specifically said "unique"). See: Verbose Mafia. Unrevealed town roles do not make me a happy camper, and if anything, I think it only increases the chances that scum will be able to get away with a fake claim (specifically because with four dead Gorillas and none of them claiming their actual role, it is a distinct possibility we have lost a power role or more, which in turn makes it more likely they will not be counter-claimed).
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Post Post #550 (isolation #34) » Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:34 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Thok wrote:For what it's worth, I know enough about power roles from the structure of my role that I believe I can catch a fake claim. In addition, if I am ever killed and come up gorilla, you should assume all gorillas are coming up gorilla.
I am fairly sure all gorillas are going to come up simply "Gorilla". I asked Stoofer specifically if I would be revealed as "Gorilla" or "Gorilla Soldier" if I died. I was actually planning on claiming to have been culted if I came up as Gorilla Soldier, so that the scum Gorillas might be able to send the town into a panic afterwards when I came up differently, but Stoofer refused to answer.
klebian wrote:I was under the impression that what my PM meant was that I would get 'found' if my group attempted to kill me. I didn't realize that there was actual 'hunting' for gorillas "going on". That may just be inexperience; I am not familiar with traitor roles and I guess I just assumed incorrectly. That's why I said in my quoted post 'I don't consider myself a likley nightkill'. This is just me being stupid.
What did you think when gorillas kept get nightkilled, then? If you thought that other gorillas had targeted them for death, by your own logic, it seems you would have thought they should have been recruited instead.
klebian wrote:Unless the scum are around 3 in number (I guess not counting SpeedyKQ [which, by the way, I must mention; it's kinda unfortunate if the only reason he died night 1 was to throw town off track]), it's quite improbable that stoofer would load the scum up with advantage upon advantage. Thok seems correct; I see that all we were told about CES's role was that he was a space monkey, and all the gorillas have all been gorillas.
Just a minor point, but if Thok's theory is correct, I think SpeedyKQ signed up for the game purposely (probably because Stoofer asked him) specifically so he could die and set the tone for the game. In other words, he may not have supposed to have been a player in the first place.
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Post Post #551 (isolation #35) » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:02 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Granted, I agree with you, klebian. I would think the Space Monkeys would have understood that the jig was up yesterday, and would hence have made a move to make it seem like they were gorillas all along. I am still having trouble deciding what I think of all this.

Glork is in no way "cleared" for me: I was simply saying that with the information I have currently, he seems more likely to be a Gorilla than not. If I change my mind, you can rest assured I'll let you know. As for Glork and I butting heads for 2.5 and then changing our minds, it certainly wouldn't be the first time. I was butting heads with him because I thought he was "town", and would rather he be lynched than me.

As it is, it must have been easier for Thok to understand the nature of the game, seeing as he had three investigations by Day Three: two Gorilla investigations, one Space Monkey, while realizing he himself was a Gorilla and that there were already four dead Gorillas. By that time yesterday, I was still thinking the scum were continually killing their own traitors, or that I was a lost gorilla being sought by two seperate scum groups who somehow kept missing kills or did indeed have alternating kills. I would like to think most players were still on my page by that time yesterday.

I certainly hope nobody has been purposely avoiding the thread lately. *raises eyebrow*
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Post Post #553 (isolation #36) » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:36 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Hrm. That satisfies me (as well as your previous answers to my questions). I would imagine Space Monkeys would have had a straighter story about traitor mechanics than what you have mentioned (specifically that a nightkill would instead equate to a recruitment), and you seem fairly genuine.

Come to Jelly, oh lost Gorillas!

I'll add you to my list of people I think are Gorillas. I'll try to keep it updated.
Players Alive wrote:
dahen

Fritzler
Glork

klebian

Masterchief
replacing Twomz

Nightson
petroleumjelly
replacing ibaesha

Phoebus
PookytheMagicalBear
Save the Dragons
Thok
replacing Bogre

Twito
I'm guessing anywhere from 2-3 Space Monkeys are remaining, and I would hope I am fair enough at reading people that none of them are those high-lighted in red.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #567 (isolation #37) » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:11 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

I would also ask that Pooky's deadline be extended; I might also be able to troll for a replacement if it is necessary.

Unless he is a Space Monkey. Then modkill at will, please.

So! How many people are actually buying the Twito/Masterchief distancing schtick?
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Post Post #604 (isolation #38) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:57 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

List wrote:
dahen

Fritzler
Glork
klebian
Masterchief
replacing Twomz

Nightson
petroleumjelly
replacing ibaesha
, investigated
PookytheMagicalBear
, investigated
Save the Dragons
spectrumvoid
replacing Phoebus
, investigated
Thok
replacing Bogre

Twito
I'll just go with people I am
extremely
sure of, instead of fairly sure. I'm knocking down klebian and Glork simply because I can still easily see either of them as scum, whereas I believe dahen's crumb to an extent that I would really have to stretch to see him as scum.

I would like a full role-claim from Masterchief at this point. No stalling.

Also, nobody be stupid and end this day prematurely: since it will be difficult to find scum in the first three days, I almost feel like we're starting a new game on Day Four. We should treat today as such, and try to get as much discussion as possible.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #607 (isolation #39) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:41 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:Aw, PJ, you can trust the Glorkster. Do you really think I would accept a pseudo-confirmed innocent state as a scumbag and then try to stab you in the back later on? <333
Anybody who ever seriously tries to lynch PJ loses all "trust" I might have otherwise given them.
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Post Post #613 (isolation #40) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:26 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

I agree with your disagreeing of my originally thinking klebian was a Gorilla. I'm not quite sure why I went down the path of logic I went down to come to that conclusion, to be frank. I recall it was something along the lines of:
PJ's immediate train of thought wrote:Yeesh, what klebian is suggesting makes absolutely no sense. I bet if he were a Space Monkey, he would have been able to make a coherent story to help explain himself by Day Four of the game, when he could easily have conversed with partners. Is that a banana? Mmm... *eats*

Oh yeah. He's probably more likely to be a Gorilla...
And probably a few other reasons, like I might have thought he sounded like he was genuinely frustrated or confused, etc. Sometimes I don't even understand why I think things.

But of course, it could just as easily have been that he just plain screwed up, I caught him on it, and simultaneously handed him a tree branch to allow him to crawl out of the quicksand. Hence why he is no longer high-lighted on my lists. Sometimes it takes a few days for such thoughts to register for me.

I also should really go to bed. ><
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Post Post #629 (isolation #41) » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:07 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

In between classes, not much time for comments.

Masterchief: CLAIM.
Now
.
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Post Post #647 (isolation #42) » Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:31 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Spectrum, if you think MC is a gorilla, why are you voting for him?

And why are you people trying to end the day so quickly?
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Post Post #654 (isolation #43) » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:08 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Has this whole town caught a case of the stupids?

1.) Lynch-All-Liars does not work here. If Masterchief hasn't been paying attention to the game, he thinks he is scum no matter what his role is, and hence will claim Space Monkey no matter what his role is.

2.) In relation to #1, I would also have claimed Space Monkey if it were not for the fact that there seemed to be something very off at the beginning of D4. For example, if I had been forced to claim D2 (when the wagon between InHim and myself was raging), I would have claimed Space Monkey. This would not necessitate me being lynched today.

3.)
Big Point


Glork accused me earlier today of "trying to roll lynches right along" so there couldn't be discussion. Now that we've figured out the game, Glork is the person trying to roll lynches right along. Has nobody wondered about this?

Glork, others: are you even taking into account Masterchief's ADD? You have to remember that this is the guy who didn't even realize he
didn't have a role in
for a different game.

This is disgraceful. Masterchief may very well be scum, but I can't see how the town intends to win by continuing to be bandwagony in general. This is exactly how scum won SpeedyKQ's Big Mafia Game. Let's not have a repeat of that, please.

There is no deadline on today, and we won't exactly lose anything by extending day for discussion.
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Post Post #658 (isolation #44) » Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:07 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

I never said that we would be better off not lynching Masterchief, or that we should spare him. I am saying that I do not see a point in ending the day so quickly.
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Post Post #662 (isolation #45) » Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:27 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Fine. Who cares. Big game revelation, people staying away from the thread, lots of information out in the open, so there is clearly nothing to talk to about.

Vote: Masterchief
. I don't know why I even bother sometimes.
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Post Post #672 (isolation #46) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:35 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Need to be off to class very soon, but
FoS: Glork
. This might turn into a vote very soon. The entire Masterchief scenario yesterday (with Glork pushing for it constantly after trying to make
me
look worse for "rolling lynches along") played on my mind while the game was waiting in night.

Results for today, Thok Thok?
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Post Post #683 (isolation #47) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:50 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

StD wrote:I still want an answer from PJ.
I don't answer to monkeys.

Vote: Glork
. I smell monkey dung all over him. He didn't even bother to really consider not lynching MasterChief yesterday, but instead stupidly pushed "lynch Masterchief as soon as possible" agenda without pondering alternatives to MC's play. I've seen him play similarly as scum, especially when it comes to picking on the worst players who are pretty much
bound
screw up, and then to harp on them
when
they screw up to push an eventual lynch.

Also, Glork indicated that he "got it" on D3 of the game, and by that time, I seriously doubt many people would have seriously "got" that Space Monkeys were scum at that point in the game, unless they had more info than the average player (i.e. Thok).

Also, Thok, there is plenty to deduce from the SpectrumVoid nightkill.

One theory is that the Space Monkeys tried to kill you N4 (notice the lack of a nightkill), and failed due to (what they believe to be) Doc protection. They then decided that they needed to hit the doc N5. Since you had essentially "cleared" SpectrumVoid, and since SV never claimed her role, there was a fair chance she may have been the Doc, and hence she was NK'd (semi-confirmed innocents who might be Doc is a logical choice). In contrast, I very much doubted I would be nightkilled since I have already claimed that I have no nightchoices.

Of course, it could just be that you're a Space Monkey yanking our chains, hoping that somebody like me would propose that exact theory so as to explain you not dying further along in the game, but whatever.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #684 (isolation #48) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:02 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Notable:
Glork, Post 533 wrote:It seems rather apparent to me that the Space Monkeys are scum, and that Gorillas are the town. Unfortunately, I 'm guessingthat the Space Monkeys knew this, so "figuring it out" isn't nearly a viable method of confirming anybody.
I would agree with this - and I would further think that the people who first "deduced" this are probably more likely to be Space Monkeys.
They
all knew the jig was up by D3, and were able to discuss it by N4, after all. I would expect at least one false "epiphany" post from scum somewhere.
Glork wrote:However, your claim
seems
to check out well enough for me
for now.
I was irked by the wording of this the first time around, still irked by it now. This is purposely vague as to whether it is similar, but instead if "seems to check out"... this almost looks like a licking your finger and putting in the air to see which way the wind blows in relation to my claim before he makes any further comment on it. He probably didn't
know
the flavor of the Gorillas, so just figured he would say "well, that seems to check out, but only for now".

Bah. Lousy Glork. Die already.
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Post Post #688 (isolation #49) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:27 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

No, I still think Glork is scum.

For example, try reading back on his D4 actions.
Glork, Post 525 wrote:What's to be confused about? I understand perfectly. If you're part of the uninformed majority and you look back at yetserday, you should understand, too.
This does not make any logical sense.

1.) If I was a Space Monkey, I would not have been confused about the CES lynch
2.) If I was a Gorilla, that is the
only
way I could have been confused about the CES lynch

In fact, "the uninformed majority" were the people
most likely
to be confused, as opposed to the other way around.
For any Gorilla, that was a loaded question. For any Space Monkey, it was a softball question.

Glork, Post 528 wrote:Are you a Gorilla or a Space Monkey?
I didn't like this question at the time (of course, I was still thinking I was scum at that time), and from that position, there is pretty much no right way to answer.

1.) If I answer that I am a Space Monkey, I suddenly find out the truth and get lynched, despite trying to truly claim afterwards (although that wouldn't have happened in this particular case, since Thok had investigated me). See: Masterchief, and that people would have stupidly pushed the "Lynch All Liars" agenda.

Here's the problem: if I
were
a Space Monkey, I sure as heck wouldn't have claimed to be one.
Claiming Space Monkey would actually be an indicator that somebody is pro-town, and is figuring they need to fake-claim.
See: Masterchief.

2.) If I answer that I am a Gorilla (which I did after much internal debating), I have to
hope
that every scrap of flavor, that my role, that the first nightkill... is lying. I have to
hope
that everything in the game is lying to me. At that point in time, I was considering that the Space Monkeys were some sort of "searching Mason" group, and that everybody was "in on" the game, or something.

Basically, both of Glork's questions towards me were going to do the
opposite
of help him find Space Monkeys. The best he was going to do was get a Gorilla to fake-claim Space Monkey because they didn't understand the set-up. The Space Monkeys
already knew about the set-up the entire game
, so there is no way they would botch up answering Glork's questions
at all
.

The attack on Masterchief yesterday was stupid. It seemed evident to me that he was not paying attention to the thread.

*** Even if Masterchief were a Space Monkey, I am positive his partners would have double-checked to tell him to claim Gorilla if he ever needed to claim later in the game. The entire wagon pretty much made no sense.

Personally, my vote on him was more out of annoyance in that I didn't want to bother dealing with him later in the game, and because I was annoyed that the town wasn't bothering to think along different veins of thought or even bother to consider sparing Masterchief. He
could
have been scum, yes: but the sheer naivete of his actions indicated to me that he was probably town. I don't think there was very good evidence one way or the other.

In particular (as I mentioned), the Lynch-All-Liars "justification" was absolute drivel, specifically because of the nature of this game. If a Gorilla is still under the impression that he is scum,
he will lie
. I wanted to hammer AndrewS for even bringing it up, but he had apparently been investigated by Thok, so I let him alone.

As for Glork's defense, it didn't do anything for me. He was rushing
the most crucial
day in the game to lynch
an unimportant player
who has a large history of
not paying attention to games
. I was very unimpressed. Seeing as that was the third mislynch of the game, I can see scum pushing the envelop to secure it while ending discussion if they have the opportunity, since we likely only have one or two mislynches left before the town loses the game.
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Post Post #703 (isolation #50) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:38 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:Though you voted on the MC wagon (despite stating that you think he was pro-town), you never attempted to analytically dismantle the case against him until today. I'd really like to know why you didn't do so.
1.) I did try to dismantle the MC case (check Post 654). It might not been have strong as my last dismantling, but that was because (lo and behold) I had
more time to think about it
. I generally tend to think about things more when I have longer amounts of time in which to think of them, amazingly enough.

2.) Put the game in context. There are two contextual things you have to keep in mind.

->
A.
I was continually asking for people to extend the day. This was not taken to very kindly.
AndrewS, Post 649 wrote:Continuing this day will not give us any more information
Glork, Post 650 wrote:
AndrewS wrote:
Vote: MasterChief
:goodposting:
A compliment for the person who you thought had ended the day.
AndrewS, Post 651 wrote:Someone else mind doing the honors?
Thok, Post 652 wrote:I'm willing to hammer if nobody else has anything to say.
Another person who doesn't care for more discussion.
AndrewS, Post 653 wrote:Well, like I said - I see no point in it.
Still "no point" in continuing discussion.

I then make an abrasive post trying to get the town into posting...
klebian, Post 660 wrote:I will consent to vote masterchief, but I want to ask, why are we extending the day? I think there has been reasonable amount of discussio today, but not enough?
AndrewS, Post 661 wrote:Well, my question is this: What else needs to come out? Is there anything that can be said that hasn't? It's great to talk about making the day longer, but if it's not progressing things, then it's useless.
So you can imagine why I just gave up. Nobody seemed to care, nor even comprehend why I might want day to continue.

->
B.
This was also during the time where I was watching Chrono Trigger crumble away under my fingers. I believe that game ended about 12 hours after my post, and since I knew Maz was leaning towards the wrong decision there, I had lost my will to even bother arguing against a lazy town who would rather end the day than discuss anything.

I've been wondering why Fritz has been getting off the hook for so long.
Unvote: Glork, Vote: Fritzler
.
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Post Post #708 (isolation #51) » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:01 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Thok, please show me where Glork left Traitor hints on D2, as you claim.

Also, I have seen Fritz feign confusion as scum before. He seemed to understand your wording on D3 (where 'informed minority' means "that's Thok talk for you're scum"), and if anybody was going to be faking confusion, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Fritz, simply because he seems to be in the realm where everybody passes it off as "that's Fritz for you!".

I find it interesting that Glork is speculating that I would be GF Space Monkey. Funny, too, how he isn't considering the nightkills in relation to his "suspicions", which is a secondary reason why I am suspicious of him.

Day 1
: Glork goes after MBL very hard, and at end of the day, speculated at MBL + PJ scum
Night 2
: MBL dies, shows up

Day 2
: This gives Glork the perfect reason to attack me. I manage to defend myself well enough from connections to MBL that I am not lynched (and likely only because of the "saving grace" that InHim's attack was not very good). By the end of the day, Glork makes no qualms in saying he still thinks I am scummy, and just before day ends, Thok brings up a Zindaras + PJ possibility, and...
Night 3
: Zindaras dies, shows up Gorilla

If somebody was trying to get me lynched in particular, I cannot think of any
better
nightkills than MBL and Zindaras, in that exact order, given how D1 and D2 played out. What Glork is suggesting is that I connected myself to two people
the town would think are scum
, hence
trying to get investigated
in such a way that I would get investigated as a Gorilla, and hence probably be a target for lynching by the Cop (which it seems Thok alluded to, and quite possibly considered doing, on D2 of the game).

Glork does not appear to be taking context seriously
at all
whatsoever in this game.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #710 (isolation #52) » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:24 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Try reading my post 703 there, genius.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #712 (isolation #53) » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:35 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

1.)
Glork wrote:I had guessed at the time that MBL was vigged, and so I kept hammering away at you, partially for consistency's sake, and partially because I was starting to think that you were SpaceMonkeyTown and I wanted you dead.
Explain. You thought I was SpaceMonkeyTown on D2, after there were only 2 dead gorillas and 1 dead Space Monkey Doctor? This is certainly new information to me.

2.) I
do not
"assume" you are
the
culprit. I
do
find you suspicious, and for reasons other than the nightkills. Those are simply extra factors which increase my dislike for your play this game.

3.)
Glork wrote:You yourself admitted that you were guilty of trying to set me up with the Bird+inHim lynches.
Correct - because the only control
I
have over the game is lynching. It seems like your control seems to be setting people up, and then one of the pairing gets nightkilled, giving you momentum for future lynches.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #715 (isolation #54) » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:53 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Nightson, tell me in explicit detail what you think of Glork's responses to my attacks.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #716 (isolation #55) » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:00 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

I see.

Well, I'm glad to see that I still have sufficient skills in immediately killing off discussion with a single post.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #723 (isolation #56) » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:32 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

A modkill? Criminy.

Unvote: Fritzler, Vote: Nightson
. Question still waiting for you.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #735 (isolation #57) » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:57 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

What?! Bah. I saw you
threaten
a deadline before going to bed, figured I would post in the morning, and now the deadline has already been imposed. Boo. I can't exactly post in my sleep, Stoof.

As much as I hate to say it, I was actually kind of hoping Nightson would get modkilled (so long as we learned his alignment and it didn't end day). Seeing as Thok is a sane Cop and there are 10 players alive, even if Nightson is a Gorilla, we would probably benefit percentage-wise by knocking our numbers down to 9 (we will still have 4 lynches), and since the number of uninvestigated players would have decreased from 6 to 5 (although I would almost consider it from 5 to 4, since I believe dahen's crumb), our chances of lynching scum would have risen that much. And if he is a Space Monkey, good riddance.

Your post better be good, Nightson.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #744 (isolation #58) » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:21 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Curse you people! Criminy. This town deserves to lose, I can't believe this.

Unvote: Nightson
. Nightson might very well be scum, but this is completely stupid. Have none of you learned
anything at all
about how dumb it is to just lynch somebody when:

A.) They have promised to make a post
B.) Deadline is 6 days away (i.e. we don't need to lynch him right
now
)
C.) The last time town decided to stop discussing and instead focusing on lynching (see: Masterchief), that didn't exactly work out for us very well
D.) Nobody is even giving reasons for their votes anymore, which in turn lessens the accountability we could possibly pressure on people if they are mislynching

I don't see how you can honestly read the game up to this point and still somehow hold the position that we should just be bandwagoning somebody on Day Five when it certainly hasn't worked for us any other time during the game. The only good bandwagon we had (on CES) was still largely uninformative so far as suspicions go simply because nobody bothered to discuss anything.

Vote: Save the Dragons
,
FoS: Glork
.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #748 (isolation #59) » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:34 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Nightson has been sick lately, and has not been up to reading games. I talk to him in ScumChat, and I know this as fact (insomuch as I assume he would not lie to me in out-of-game circumstances).

I am not too pleased with his lack of posting lately either, but realize that this is true of
all
of his games, not simply this one. His posts on the forum as a whole have jumped from the 17th, to no posts until the 20th, to no posts until the 23rd (yesterday), when he offered to make a large post.

This isn't to say Nightson isn't scum, but I don't believe he is scum for the reason you are presenting.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #753 (isolation #60) » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:58 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

You aren't getting out of this
that
easily.

- Who do you think has the best chances of being a Space Monkey of the uninvestigated and why?
- Who do you think has the best chances of being a Gorilla of the uninvestigated (besides yourself, clearly) and why?
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #755 (isolation #61) » Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:01 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Limited to no access this Friday/Saturday.

StD had better have answered my questions by then.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #768 (isolation #62) » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:05 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Very tired, and I probably won't be posting in other games right now.

StD looks like scum. I hate it when people pull the "you should lynch me", but then try to sneak on votes onto other players anyways without explanation. Most likely, he figures:
StD's thoughts, according to PJ wrote:I'll probably get lynched eventually anyways, so I might as well see if I can help get Fritzler lynched before that happens.
If StD turns up as a Space Monkey, that would go a little ways in showing that Fritz might be a Gorilla.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #776 (isolation #63) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:30 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Deadline is Tuesday.

If StD is scum, then if there is a GF, my guess is AndrewS. He has been constantly bandwagoning, and asking why we should even bother talking, but as soon as the wagon starts going towards StD he suddenly cautions against LyLo situations and wants us to think about things. I haven't liked his play this entire game, and the only thing keeping me off him is that investigation.

Lynch StD. Get 'er done.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #778 (isolation #64) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:45 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

:roll:

Why is it people always wait until I make a post like that when they say something helpful? Win condition matches.

Unvote: Save the Dragons
for the moment. I'll give this a think.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #785 (isolation #65) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:46 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Well, to be fair, StD has jumped on Nightson, Fritz, and Glork by this point. I suppose he's consistent with his belief that somebody uinvestigated ought to be lynched (which seems like the obvious thing to do).

I also just had a feeling of deja vu while writing this post, and funnily enough, another feeling of it while writing this sentence. Hrm.

Think I'll go back to a
Vote: Nightson
. This is like walking through revolving doors.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #786 (isolation #66) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:19 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Looking at the voting patterns for today. A few interesting notes (people investigated to be Gorillas are green, instead of red, since it screws with my mind; other players are in orange for emphasis):
Day Five Voting Patterns wrote:
PJ FoS: Glork (I)
Thok votes StD (1)

Glork votes Nightson (1)

PJ votes Glork (1)
Klebian votes Glork (2)

Glork FoS: Fritz (I)
Glork unvotes Nightson (0) and votes Fritz (1)

PJ unvotes Glork (1) and votes Fritz (2)
Thok unvotes StD (0) and votes Nightson (1)
PJ unvotes Fritz (1) and votes Nightson (2)
AndrewS votes Nightson (3)

Fritz votes Nightson (4)
StD votes Nightson (5)

PJ unvotes Nightson (4) and votes StD (1) and FoS: Glork (II)

Glork unvotes Fritzler (0) and votes StD (2)

Thok unvotes Nightson (3) and votes StD (3)

Fritz unvotes Nightson (2) and votes StD (4)
Twito votes Fritz (1)
StD unvotes Nightson (1) and votes Fritz (2)

Klebian unvotes Glork (0) and votes Save the Dragons (5)
PJ unvotes Save the Dragons (4)
Thok unvotes Save the Dragons (3) and votes Nightson (2)

StD unvotes Fritz (1) and votes Glork (1)

PJ votes Nightson (3)
Lack of Votes Notes

1.) Dahen has not voted or really expressed suspicion today (except to hammer Nightson, which was still not a stanceon suspicion). Reason of absences.
2.) Nightson has also not voted today, or expressed any real suspicions. Reason of sickness.

Vote Make-Up Notes

1.) Three of four voters of Fritz {Glork, Twito, StD} are from unconfirmeds.
2.) Three of six voters of Nightson {Glork, Fritz, StD} are from unconfirmeds. Threat of a seventh vote came from a fourth unconfirmed {dahen}.
3.) Two of six voters on StD {Glork, Fritz} are from unconfirmeds.
4.) One of three voters on Glork {StD} are from unconfirmeds.
5.) Zero of zero voters on Twito are from unconfirmeds.
6.) Zero of zero voters on Dahen are from unconfirmeds.

Now to think about this.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #787 (isolation #67) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:28 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Bah, I always screw something up.
Vote Make-Up Notes, Fixed wrote:Vote Make-Up Notes
1.) Three of four voters of Fritz {Glork, Twito, StD} are from unconfirmeds.
2.) Three of six voters of Nightson {Glork, Fritz, StD} are from unconfirmeds. Threat of a seventh vote came from a fourth unconfirmed {dahen}.
3.) Two of
six
five voters on StD {Glork, Fritz} are from unconfirmeds.
4.) One of three voters on Glork {StD} are from unconfirmeds.
5.) Zero of zero voters on Twito are from unconfirmeds.
6.) Zero of zero voters on Dahen are from unconfirmeds.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #788 (isolation #68) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:10 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Okay, first observation:

Fritzler is probably GorillaTown. I just skimmed his posts, and it seems he was playing from the eyes of a Gorilla. Also, the fact that 3/4 of the votes on him today have come from the unconfirmeds (the other vote was mine, and that was because primarily meant as a pressure vote) tells me Fritzler is a likely candidate to be pushed on by scum, since they will need to lynch a number (not sure how many yet) of the unconfirmed players to win.

For the sake of being able to draw further conclusions, I will now repost the Vote Make-Up Notes with Fritz being considered town...
If Fritz is Town Vote Make-Up Notes wrote:1.) Three of four voters of Fritz {Glork, Twito, StD} are from unconfirmeds.
2.) Two of six voters of Nightson {Glork, StD} are from unconfirmeds. Threat of a seventh vote came from a fourth unconfirmed {dahen}.
3.) One of five voters on StD {Glork} are from unconfirmeds.
4.) One of three voters on Glork {StD} are from unconfirmeds.
5.) Zero of zero voters on Twito are from unconfirmeds.
6.) Zero of zero voters on Dahen are from unconfirmeds.
So, now to gather my thoughts, this means I think Dahen + Fritz are town. This leaves scum in {Glork, Twito, StD, and Nightson}.

Glork, who do you think is scum? I want you to give an
individual scum
. I am tired of you trying to post everything with
scum-pairs
, such as "Twito + Fritz", but then willing to vote Nightson (without explanation), shifting to "StD + Nightson", then switching to "Fritz + Nightson", then most recently to "one of Fritz or StD".

This leads to problems, most notably the fact that StD is the person voted by the most confirmed players, which makes it most likely (from an objective standpoint) that StD is scum. If he is a Space Monkey, however, then he was given the Gorilla win condition, or was able to determine what it was.

I can see a {Twito, StD, Nightson} scum-group easier than some of the others I've had in mind. I was originally going to put Glork, but he freaking always makes me doubt myself whenever I read all of his posts. *sigh* Stupid Glork.

I would suggest lynching these three players in some order or another. Deadline is coming, so I'd like everybody to give some input.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #794 (isolation #69) » Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:04 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

*shakes fist at StD*

Result from Thok Thok?
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Post Post #797 (isolation #70) » Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:24 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Day Five Voting Patterns wrote:
PJ FoS: Glork (I)
Thok votes StD (1)

Glork votes Nightson (1)

PJ votes Glork (1)
Klebian votes Glork (2)

Glork FoS: Fritz (I)
Glork unvotes Nightson (0) and votes Fritz (1)

PJ unvotes Glork (1) and votes Fritz (2)
Thok unvotes StD (0) and votes Nightson (1)
PJ unvotes Fritz (1) and votes Nightson (2)
AndrewS votes Nightson (3)

Fritz votes Nightson (4)

StD votes Nightson (5)

PJ unvotes Nightson (4) and votes StD (1) and FoS: Glork (II)

Glork unvotes Fritzler (0) and votes StD (2)

Thok unvotes Nightson (3) and votes StD (3)

Fritz unvotes Nightson (2) and votes StD (4)

Twito votes Fritz (1)

StD unvotes Nightson (1) and votes Fritz (2)

Klebian unvotes Glork (0) and votes StD (5)
PJ unvotes StD (4)
Thok unvotes StD (3) and votes Nightson (2)

StD unvotes Fritz (1) and votes Glork (1)
PJ votes Nightson (3)
Scum: {Glork, Nightson, Twito}

Twito's Votes Throughout the Game: MrBuddyLee [Gorilla], Bird1111 [Gorilla], InHimShallIBe [Gorilla], Masterchief [Gorilla], Fritzler [Unknown]

Glork's Votes Throughout the Game: MrBuddyLee [Gorilla], Bogre/Thok [Gorilla], Sarcastro/Zindaras [Gorilla], Ibaesha/PJ [Gorilla], InHimShallIBe [Gorilla], CES [Space Monkey - but tried to vote PJ, Gorilla], Masterchief [Gorilla].... and yesterday, Nightson [Unknown], Fritzler [Unknown], Save the Dragons [Gorilla]

I think Glork has been trying to constantly pair off one of his scum-partners. He tries to pawn Twito off with Fritz earlier, and even though he proposes such a scum-group, he votes for Fritz over Twito. He also has not really gone after Twito pretty much the entire game.

Glork tried to pair Nightson with Fritzler, and then Save the Dragons. In fact, here are the exact pairings he has tried to show (and this is just lately: it doesn't even consider the bad Zindaras + PJ, MBL + PJ, etc)...

Twito
+ Fritz
StD
+ Nightson
Fritz + Nightson
StD
or Fritz

Lousy Glork. You should have been dead a long time ago. I'll hold off voting so we can have discussion today.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #799 (isolation #71) » Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:28 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:This game is literally hurting my brain right now. No jokes.

PJ's post isn't terribly surprising to me. I was actually hoping that Thok would've investigated
me
last night... it would've saved me a whole lot of trouble. :(

I'll have a response sometime tonight. I have this case study to finish by 6 PM as well as classes to attend.
I agree. It would have saved you the trouble of trying to act like a Gorilla for a whole 'nother day. You poor thing.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #828 (isolation #72) » Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:04 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:I see shades of Chrono Trigger, and I don't like it one bit.


Seriously, where the hell is everybody? If the game weren't at such a critical juncture, I would suggest just mass modkills, but that seems like a really crappy way to potentially end a game.
Right, right. Because the game wasn't in a critical juncture the day we lynched CES, or Masterchief, or when StD got himself modkilled. I like how you're trying to step it up
now
, when it was clear we needed to step things up
three days ago
.

I will be leaving on Thursday, so I probably vote by tomorrow to assure that Twito gets lynched. Pretty sure my opinions are out there anyways.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #829 (isolation #73) » Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:23 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Also, Thok Thok, I am fairly confident there is a Gorilla Doctor left in the game. The Space Monkeys have already missed their kill once; if they want to miss a second kill, more power to them.
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Post Post #831 (isolation #74) » Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:58 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

How is that a problem?

If the scum kill off somebody who is currently unconfirmed (or "confirmed", in case there is a GF), all they are doing is confirming a Gorilla, which narrows down the possible Space Monkeys.

The Space Monkeys are screwed anyways, unless they have a special power or two left. They can't kill you [Thok], they are wasting time if they kill me or klebian, and if they kill an unconfirmed they are only helping the town narrow down the list.

Of course, I should probably *knock on wood*. It seems I have habit of losing games which are, in theory, completely locked down.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #832 (isolation #75) » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:03 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

EBWOP:

I should probably clarify this sentence. I know what I meant when I wrote it, but it's confusing to read back.
PJ wrote:If the scum kill off somebody who is currently unconfirmed (or "confirmed", in case there is a GF), all they are doing is confirming a Gorilla, which narrows down the possible Space Monkeys.
Translates to:

If the scum kill off somebody who is currently unconfirmed, all they are doing is confirming a Gorilla, which narrows down the possible Space Monkeys. Of course, the quote-unquote "confirmed" players may not actually be
confirmed
if there is a Space Monkey GF, so killing them would also truly confirm a Gorilla (as opposed to leaving possible doubt).
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #835 (isolation #76) » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:23 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Oh, yes. Because games turn out
so well
when I
do
put lots of effort into them.

I'm not a good mood either.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #837 (isolation #77) » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:32 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Sucks on juice bottle...
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #846 (isolation #78) » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:21 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Mod
: I will have limited to no access from this Thursday to Sunday, Feb. 8 - 11.

Vote: Twito
.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #860 (isolation #79) » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:54 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Klebian, explain to me again in your own words your thoughts on the night-kill situation before I had claimed.

Glork: Not entirely impressed with your claim (any person with a reasonable attention span would have claimed something similar if they wanted to claim a power role whatsoever). I will want to hear from both Fritzler and Nightson to verify, since I can see both a possibility of you making up that ability or actually having that ability as scum.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #862 (isolation #80) » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:13 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Ah, yes, blocking the Cop would make more sense if scum had the ability to do so. I plead temporary insanity.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #872 (isolation #81) » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:19 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Here's a few questions for everybody:

1.) How many Space Monkeys do you think are left?
2.) Do you think the Space Monkeys have any abilities?
3.) Given the answers to above, do you think a Lynch or a No-Lynch is strategically better with 6 players alive?

I would like confirmation from either VitaminR [Nightson], Fritzler, or Klebian to see if any of them can verify being role-blocked.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #879 (isolation #82) » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:27 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:2) I don't think that they have any abilities. I don't really have anything to back this up, but I just find it unlikely.
You consider having a "Godfather Ability" as an ability, don't you? Or do you just consider that a "perk"?
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #880 (isolation #83) » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:43 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Dahen, please answer my questions. I have a couple things I want to explore after these as it is, so everybody should plan on staying active for the remainder of the game. I will not be merciful when it comes to prodding or replacements. We are probably at or near endgame with only six players left, and the last thing I want at this point is
another
deadline to rush us through the day.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #882 (isolation #84) » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:54 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Do you think Dahen is automatically town even though there is no investigation on him, Glork?
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #884 (isolation #85) » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:42 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

And what if there are Space Monkey traitors? Or what if the Space Monkeys are actually separated? This would completely invalidate Dahen's crumb.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #885 (isolation #86) » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:48 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

^ Or if scum had a sample Townie PM, come to think on it.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #899 (isolation #87) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:42 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

What are
my
thoughts? That this game is confusing.

On the one hand, I seriously wonder if Stoofer would give this set-up only 3 total Space Monkeys (not including SpeedyKQ). Looking at his open set-up in the New York forum [face-to-face], there are only 3 scum out of 15 players in an open set-up with 3 guaranteed power roles. This game was probably 17 players... except here, the town started with a
huge
disadvantage in that we all thought we were scum, which could account for the extra 2 players [17 - 15 = 2].

On the other hand, it seems safest to assume there are 2 Space Monkeys remaining simply so that we lynch as carefully as possible. I can't decide if I think there is a Space Monkey Godfather at this point, because I think the scum already had a large enough advantage over the town without having one, but I also think Thok's role was strong enough that Stoofer must have accounted for it [though if there is no Gorilla Doctor, that would do so automatically in the first place].

Your role-claim was fairly predictable. You had already hinted at having power (with the "your role claim
seems
to check out" comment towards me earlier, which tells me that you probably didn't know the flavor for a Gorilla Soldier), but I would expect that same type of comment from
scum
who doesn't know the exact flavor for a Gorilla Soldier. Given the dead roles, if
I
were fake-claiming, I
also
would have fake-claimed Captain, and since Thok had died, claiming Cop or Doctor was pretty much out of reach for you. Vigilante would make no sense, Back-Up wouldn't make sense from your position, which really leaves Role-Blocker as your only viable option. The only thing in your favor is that you claimed to block Fritz/Nightson before they had claimed, which would leave you open for potential counter-claims, but at the same time it could be that one of them is your partner and thereby naturally would not dispute your information.

In general, I'm mostly trying to decide whether or not I believe you. If I do, I will still have to decide whether or not that means I think Klebian is scum, and if I don't, we both know who I'll be pushing on today (unless I decide No-Lynch is preferable).
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #905 (isolation #88) » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:33 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Are you implying that Thok, the
investigative
role, may have also had some sort of night immunities, klebian?
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #907 (isolation #89) » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:42 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork,

If you blocked Klebian on Night Four, and during that same night there were no kills, why did you pursue Masterchief all of Day Four? Your actions are not aligning with the suspicions you've shown in the game with the information you claim to have had.

Did you leave any crumbs whatsoever as to whether or not your "role-blocking" targets affected your positions on anybody? Did you ever once crumb any of your targets whatsoever?
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #908 (isolation #90) » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:53 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

In fact,
Glork, Day Four wrote:Klebian does not strike me as being a scumbag at this time, but I want to read over all of his posts again.
I thought he was a SpaceMonkeyTown earlier, which is why I wanted him lynched, but I obviously need to reassess my post-revelation opinion on him.


Preview Edit: Actually, I just isolated Klebian's posts, and I see a couple of things that indicate that he might have been trying to fit in or associate with PJ, and buddy up to him in a way. PJ sortof addressed some of these, but I want to take a closer look at them in just a minute to see if I can talk/write my way through this.
Nowhere did Glork really mention the lack of CES-hammer as a "reason" for finding Klebian suspicious whatsoever on Day Four - the day
after
he claimed to have blocked Klebian (and even though that is the
reason
he is now giving for having "blocked" Klebian). This makes me think Glork has been thinking about his claim for a while, and has since tried to think of reasons to "justify" his "night-choices" upon his claiming of role and targets. And even though Glork claims to have "role-blocked" Klebian the night before where there had been no night-kills, he was still pursuing Masterchief
very
strongly (i.e. "He needs to die
NOW
"-type statements), while
then
thinking he can "reassess" his position on Klebian.

I'm not buying it.
Vote: Glork
.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #913 (isolation #91) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:36 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:As I said, I defautled to Doc-protection in this game. In Best of the Internet, I was a roleblocker and erroneously relied on my role/ability, which just led me to far more confusion than helping. That was my only experience as a (pro-town) roleblocker up to this point, and it weighed very heavily on my mind. Perhaps I went a little too far to the other extreme in my caution.
Add to this the fact that I was trying to figure out what the hell was going on with the setup
, and I thought to myself, "If I'm a pro-town Roleblocker, I don't want to jump to any conclusions unless I'm fairly certain that I actually have significant, damning evidence against somebody." And that didn't happen until today, when I realized there wasn't a Doc in the setup.
O RLY?
Post 495, Day Three wrote:I get it.
Post 525, Day Four wrote:What's to be confused about?
I understand perfectly.
If you're part of the uninformed majority and you look back at yetserday, you should understand, too.
Post 533, Day Four wrote:
It seems rather apparent to me that the Space Monkeys are scum, and that Gorillas are the town.
Unfortunately, I 'm guessingthat the Space Monkeys knew this, so "figuring it out" isn't nearly a viable method of confirming anybody.
It seems to me that you were in fact
not at all
"trying to figure what the hell was going on with the set-up", but that you instead "understood perfectly" what was going on with the set-up. In fact, you lynched Masterchief because he
failed
to understand what was going on with the set-up. From a Space Monkey point of view, Masterchief was
going
to be the absolute easiest person to push a lynch on - the fact that you did so still rubs me wrong, especially now that you claim to have role-blocked Klebian on a night with no kills, and that it took you
three days
to tell this information to the town, and this is after you left absolutely no breadcrumbs as to that fact.

PPE: Actually, you probably meant set-up in terms of power roles, but if that's the case, your post was badly worded, considering the most confusing part of the set-up for most players was by far the Space-Monkey/Gorilla twist.

However, I would think you are a good enough player that when you have information like
that
, you should have made it clear so as to hint you had something potentially damning against Klebian for if you died (and would therefore come up as "Gorilla Captain"). All it would have taken was 2-3 FoS's of Klebian in a row on Day Four to relay a red flag of
information
for the town should you have died.

Still, one of your quotes supports my original reading:
Glork wrote:And even if I had thought about breadcrumbing,
I seriously doubt that I would have done so while I thought I was scum.
Considering you "understood perfectly" the twist, the second half of this should not have been a problem for you. You
didn't
think you were scum, and as such you
should
have made it clear you hade some inside information on Klebian.

Some questions:
1.) How did you expect the town to know that you had role-blocked Klebian if you had been nightkilled before this point? Or that you had any information against Klebian whatsoever?
2.) Did you ever breadcrumb the fact that you were a traitor?
Glork wrote:Question, PJ: If you think that I made up the claim (and spent a significant amount of time thinking about it, as you indicated), what reasons can you find for me choosing Klebian as my fake target rather than Fritzler or Nightson? Why would the logical choice be for me to choose to go after Klebian, who was ultimately investigated as an innocent?
1.) WIFOM purposes. Obviously.
2.) If you claimed to have this information on either Fritzler or Nightson, I would have lynched you immediately. Having damning evidence against
uninvestigated players
for
three days in a row
before saying or hinting at
anything
is something I
would not
believe.

Your only saving grace here is that Klebian was investigated the night afterwards, which could potentially explain why you have hesitated to claim anything up until this point.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #915 (isolation #92) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:40 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:Like I said, it never occurred to me to breadcrumb at all, and I...
Care to finish that sentence?
Glork wrote:I didn't know if I was an old-fashioned "if you get targeted, you get recruited" traitor.
Now you're doing the same thing Klebian was doing. If you honestly thought "Traitors are recruited if they are targeted by scum", explain to me exactly how Gorillas were consantly being nightkilled? Did you just think the scum groups continually missed their kills and that there was a Vigilante who kept shooting down scum?
Glork wrote:I also decided that, although his defense of CES was consistent with scum, it also made sense as somebody who thought he would protect a pro-town player to look good in the town's eyes -- something that Klebian himself mentioned he was intending to do at the time.
Basically, I felt that Kleb's actions were consistent as either scum or as town
, and the rest of his play didn't ping enough to make me follow my possible role-based information at the time.
1.) You previously stated that you blocked Klebian because he didn't hammer CES.
2.) You just said earlier that you thought he was scum:
Glork wrote:No, I didn't specify exactly why; but it's evident that after I realized that Space Monkeys were scum,
I still thought that Klebian was scum for some reason.
3.) When you add 1 + 2 together, your reason for still thinking Klebian was scum was the fact that he hesitated on the CES-wagon.
4.) Now you are stating that his lack of hammer was consistent with both town or scum (read: inconsistent with your "reason" for blocking him).
5.) If you really thought Klebian was scum when you blocked him, it makes no sense to suddenly drop the case against him after you blocked him on a night with no kills.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #920 (isolation #93) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:07 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

PJ wrote:Now you're doing the same thing Klebian was doing. If you honestly thought "Traitors are recruited if they are targeted by scum", explain to me exactly how Gorillas were consantly being nightkilled? Did you just think the scum groups continually missed their kills and that there was a Vigilante who kept shooting down scum?
Answer this.
Glork wrote:Very early in D4, I decided that maybe Klebs wasn't scum, as I felt his actions were consistent with a GorillaScum, too. I was neutral in my stance towards him.
I don't believe this. You blocked him on a night where you thought he was scum: and then there were no Nightkills. And then you decided your stance was
neutral
towards him? Considering you attack players for the smallest of things, the fact that you had a
large
thing against him and you
didnt
attack him (but instead went for the lynchbait known as Masterchief) is a thought-process that does not sound believable to me whatsoever.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #922 (isolation #94) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:23 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork, why is it you always claim to be sucky town whenever we're in a game together?

If you are town, your play is horrible. I seem to be constantly stuck between deciding if you are just playing badly, or if you are just plain scum.

<vent> If
I
ever tried to play the way you're playing right now, I can almost guarantee I would be lynched for it. </vent>

Unvote: Glork
in the meantime. I will need to think on this. Not happy.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #923 (isolation #95) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:56 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Let's take a look at that Day Five voting, again. I'll even un-highlight Klebian.
Day Five Voting wrote:
PJ FoS: Glork (I)
Thok votes StD (1)

Glork votes Nightson (1)

PJ votes Glork (1)

Klebian votes Glork (2)
Glork FoS: Fritzler (I)
Glork unvotes Nightson (0) and votes Fritz (1)

PJ unvotes Glork (1) and votes Fritzler (2)
Thok unvotes StD (0) and votes Nightson (1)
PJ unvotes Fritz (1) and votes Nightson (2)
AndrewS votes Nightson (3)

Fritz votes Nightson (4)

StD votes Nightson (5)
PJ unvotes Nightson (4) and votes StD (1) and FoS: Glork (II)

Glork unvotes Fritzler (0) and votes StD (2)

Thok unvotes Nightson (3) and votes StD (3)

Fritz unvotes Nightson (2) and votes StD (4)

Twito votes Fritz (1)

StD unvotes Nightson (1) and votes Fritz (2)

Klebian unvotes Glork (0) and votes Save the Dragons (5)
PJ unvotes Save the Dragons (4)
Thok unvotes Save the Dragons (3) and votes Nightson (2)
StD unvotes Fritz (1) and votes Glork (1)
PJ votes Nightson (3)
Save the Dragons MODKILLED
1.) The 5 voters on the large Nightson wagon were:
Thok, PJ, AndrewS, Fritz, StD
--> 4 confirmed town, 1 unconfirmed

2.) The 5 voters on the large StD wagon were:
PJ, Glork, Thok, Fritz, Kleb
--> 2 confirmed town 3 unconfirmed

Chances are, the town just barely missed out in lynching Nightson the Space Monkey - we already know that 4/5 of the voters were town, and it's more than possible that all 5 of them were. I've been thinking this for quite a while - it seems no matter how little Nightson contributes and no matter how many votes he garners, he is never pushed over the edge into lynchville.

Vote: VitaminR
. I still think Glork could easily be scum with Nightson/VitaminR at this point.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #927 (isolation #96) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:07 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

VitaminR, please show me the players who swung from "safety and the noose" since the revealing of the game's twist: that Gorillas were town.
VitaminR wrote:This assumes that a player is scum if they are voted for by pro-town players. That is a fairly untenable position.
It actually
is
a tenable position. We have both played in quite a few games, and the majority of bandwagons on town have
at least
one scum on them; and if not on the final lynch, scum will have voted them at one point in time before hopping off the wagon. Nightson has been continually voted for by townspeople. Every confirmed Gorilla we have had since Day Four [AndrewS, StD, Thok, PJ] voted for Nightson, and yet the lynch couldn't finish. Twito never voted for Nightson... CES never voted for Nightson... Glork has only voted for Nightson when he was in little danger of being lynched...

There's also the further metagame (which I wasn't going to bring up, but oh well) that you know CES in real life, and CES was a Space Monkey: he probably asked you in particular to replace Nightson so you could finish off the game for the Space Monkeys. You are obviously going to deny this either way, though.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #929 (isolation #97) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:24 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Gee gosh willickers. Glork won't vote for VitaminR, and VitaminR won't vote for Glork. And they're the two I've been suspecting are scum together for much of the game. What to make of this?
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Post Post #931 (isolation #98) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:40 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Oh, I'm sorry. Apparently you're the only person in this game who is allowed to use banter and rhetoric, I keep forgetting. Please, forgive me.

1.) There are multiple things which could have stopped a kill on Night 4.
--> A.) Masterchief's role
--> B.) An unclaimed role (such as Doctor)
--> C.) A latent ability [such as something in Thok's role, MC's role, other's role]
--> D.) Purposeful no-kill
--> E.) Missed night-kill
--> F.) Redirected night-kill
--> G.) Instead of killing, Space Monkeys may have recruited somebody
--> H.) Blocked night-kill

I am not going to "definitively" guess at what happened on Night 4, because I do not know. Suffice it to say that I see more possibilies than you having blocked a kill and failed to tell the town about that possibility for this long.

I furthermore do not find it intelligent to
guess
at what MC's role was. Because The fact is we don't know. I am not going to base assumptions on information I can only guess at and cannot verify in any manner at this point.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #933 (isolation #99) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:50 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Yep. I'm not going to base things off role-related information, since we don't have any of that other than Thok's. Seeing as I think you're scum and your claim of information is inconsistent with your actions in the game, you can imagine why I'm not really taking you overly seriously.

I will, however, base conclusions off of voting records, since that's about the only thing I have to work off of other than Thok's investigations (which you are trying to invalidate by accusing Klebian of being a Godfather). Nightson + Glork have been acting weird all game, as you can tell from my posts upon replacing on
Day One
.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #937 (isolation #100) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:35 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

<Refrains from swearing>

1.) I do not like this game.

2.) I am currently spending more time in other games.

3.) Do NOT use the burden of "diligence" on me EVER AGAIN. I am sick and freakin' tired of it.

I think you and VitaminR are scum, period. It is mostly gut, and I will scrape up whatever dirt I can to try and get you lynched at this point. Your claim is convenient, your claim is untimely, your claim is not consistent with your actions, your play has been consistently bad, you "understood" the twist of the game much too soon, your questions towards me/MC seemed trappish, your attack on MC rubbed me the wrong way (I especially did not like your "I am so good at this game" comment while you're effectively beating up on somebody who obviously cannot defend himself very well), you did not hint at being at a Traitor, you claim to have been "confused" while at the same time displaying confidence, you have been trying to draw connections to people
the entire game
instead of hunting for single scum, and there are probably more reasons which simply are not coming to my mind right now.

In addition, read through Nightson's posts: even when he was not sick, he specifically stayed away from giving any strong opinions whatsoever: he simply voted and unvoted, and never really participated unless he was poked at. I would consider this your "lurky attitude" you were talking about earlier, and yet you never seemed to bring it up. On Day One, you have had odd interactions with Nightson, which BOTH Ibaesha and myself mentioned. The two of you (including VitaminR the replacement) have distinctly veered away from voting each other, excepting for circumstances where the vote would be effectively meaningless, and even those votes were not based on very solid reasoning so that they could be taken off easily.

This post was written in less than five minutes.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #939 (isolation #101) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:49 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Also, this is entirely stupid:
Glork wrote:So, out of your listed possibilities, I find only A, G, and H to be the only real possibilities. I want you to go more in-depth, PJ. What do you think of my analyses of these possibilities? Why are you so hesitant to actually examine these possibilities in an analytical light? You seem
afraid
(or, at the very least, highly unwilling) to actually consider them, to actually look at how much they make sense if they hold true.
I hope you're not insinuating that I am trying to in any way "protect" Klebian. Unless you are going to theorize that we're
both
Godfathers who turn up innocent to Thok's investigations, calling me "afraid" of the implications of you having role-blocked a kill from Klebian is entirely dumb.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #941 (isolation #102) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:09 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

And it also bothers me that you have saved your claim for when the town is probably in LyLo in order to push a final lynch. Guess we're even.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #942 (isolation #103) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:33 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Also, no: your scum-pair play this game is completely different than usual.

For example... you began the game giving scum-pairings. Here's what I'm seeing:

Night One:
Glork claims to block InHim.
Day One:
Maybe MBL + PJ are scum-partners!
Night Two:
MBL dies, comes up Gorilla. Glork claims to block PJ.
Day Two:
I was right! Attack PJ! Also, maybe Zindie + PJ are scum-partners!
Night Three:
Zindie dies, comes up Gorilla. Glork claims to block PJ.
Day Three:
I was right! Attack PJ! Oh wait, guess I have to vote for CES. But maybe Klebian or PJ are scum!
Night Four:
No kills. Glork claims to block Klebian.
Day Four:
I was right! Klebian is scum, because I blocked him last night after calling him scum and there were no nightkills!


Oh WAIT. That
never happened
. Imagine! Instead, what we have is this:

Day Four:
Despite the fact that I suspect Klebian, and I blocked him last night, and there were no kills, let's lynch Masterchief! After all, he is arguably the absolute easiest person to lynch in the entire game, and the most likely person to not be paying attention whatsoever!

We also have this:
Glork wrote:Twito hasn't really struck me either way.
This is
classic
scum-analyzing-their-own-partner rhetoric. After all, maybe if you don't comment on them, nobody will notice!

Glork then says the people he most wants to look at are:

{Nightson, StD, Klebian, Twito}

Night Five:
Glork claims to role-block FRITZLER. Guess what?
THIS WAS NOT ONE OF THE
FOUR
PLAYERS GLORK WAS SUSPICIOUS OF AT THE END OF DAY FOUR.


In fact, his specific quote near the end of Day Four:
Glork wrote:Still pretty sure that both MC and Nightson should be dead ASAP.
Why gee? Why didn't Glork
block
Nightson if he thought he was scum? I can't
possibly
imagine!

Day Five:
Glork votes for Nightson first (without giving any reasoning), while also saying that he could see StD as a Space Monkey. He then switches to voting Fritz. He then makes a Twito + Fritz scum-group, but continues to vote Fritz, and
not
Twito. When Nightson gets in trouble, he offers to hammer Nightson but does not actually do so (despite the fact that Glork had been hammer-happy the entire game up until that point). He then goes after StD (read: not Nightson, or even one of his Twito/Fritz pair). Then either StD or Fritz are scum.

Night Six:
Despite the fact that Glork had blanketed Fritz, Nightson, or Twito as scum, Glork claims to have role-blocked Nightson.

Day Seven:
As soon as Day Opens, Glork suddenly remembers that he blocked Klebian on Night Four, a night with no kills, and pushes for a lynch.

Unvote: VitaminR, Vote: Glork
. DIE.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #944 (isolation #104) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:25 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Question:

Why did you block Klebian again if you thought he was Gorilla Town? Either way, your actions don't make sense.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #948 (isolation #105) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:36 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Oh darn, YOU'RE getting frustrated. Join the club, bub.

Last time you did this to me was Committee Mafia.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #950 (isolation #106) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:48 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Blatantly wrong attacks?

Look. You claim to be a role-blocker.

You claimed to be suspicious of Klebian going into night four. You claimed to have blocked Klebian. And then there were no night-kills. And instead of going after Klebian, you went after Masterchief, the
easiest lynch in the entire game
.

And I know you. You attack people for the smallest of things: you don't even need reasons. You can push lynches without even giving reasons. Considering you are telling me you were in the mindset of Klebian being scum going into Night Four and then walking away with the being no kills, I:

DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOUR FIRST REACTION WOULD BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN GOING AFTER KLEBIAN. PERIOD.

In addition, for one confirmed scum you have had the chance to comment on, your analysis was that "Twito has not struck you either way". You know as well as I do that that's a
major
scumtell.

Furthermore, you have not claimed until Day Seven of the game, despite the fact that you had pertinent information which may have helped the town make better decisions much earlier if you are being truthful.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #951 (isolation #107) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:25 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

In fact, here's your first substantive post of Day Four:

Post 533.

What did you say there?
Glork wrote:I've re-read the game a couple of times overnight...
And that your short list going into night was:
1.) PJ
2.) Masterchief

No mention of Klebian. Not one! You then summarily ignored my conversation with Klebian, and instead pursued Masterchief (Post 570: "Guys, why isn't MC dead yet? Seriously. Dude needs killed today."). Even if you were wavering on Klebian, considering that you had previously suspected him
and
blocked him on a night with no kills, there is practically
no reason
should not have took that opportunity to attack him.

Your next substantive post makes even less sense. It is found here, Post 617. What do we find here?

1.) Glork points out that Nightson has been lurky. And Glork has continually said he thinks Space Monkeys were probably lurky. And yet Glork continually finds ways not to vote for Nightson.

2.) Fritz is leaning *slightly* town. His reason for this is that "Nightson and StD are better bets". StD has turned up town... and once again, Glork has found a way not to go after Nightson.

3.) "Twito hasn't struck me either way". The rest of his paragraph isn't even
about
Twito, but instead rambles on directly into MC. It makes it look like he's making a large comment on Twito, when in fact he is using that paragraph to comment on MC. So not only does Glork not take a stance on Twito, but he directly shifts the topic to MC at the same time. Scum scummity scum scum.

4.) Here's a big one:
Glork wrote:Klebian does not strike me as being a scumbag at this time, but I want to read over all of his posts again. I thought he was a SpaceMonkeyTown earlier, which is why I wanted him lynched, but I obviously need to reassess my post-revelation opinion on him.
Does this sound like somebody who had just blocked Klebian the night before on a night with no kills?

Answer: No. Because it didn't happen.

He then says he will take a closer look at Klebian. And not even based off the fact that he claims to have role-blocked him on a night with no kills. His next post, found Post 621 is where he finally tries to cast suspicon on Klebian (for buddying up with me, no less).

Actually, hold it.
Glork, Post 621 wrote:Traitors are generally recruited when targeted by a scumgroup, so there's no need to assume that you'll be killed instead. I would have come to the same conclusion if I had a Traitor/Soldier role (Note: This is not an indication one way or another whether I am a Soldier or not; just saying, this is how I would have interpreted it as well.)
Care to explain this statement? You claim to have come this conclusion regardless of the fact that you do not have a Gorilla Soldier role.

Tell me. Were you told if you were a Traitor? Were you told if you were lost? Were you told if you could be recruited? Were you told if you had weapons? I want to see a better paraphrase of what you're claiming.

Considering the information Glork claims to have had, he was being
awfully
light in his post against Klebian. I just don't believe it.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #952 (isolation #108) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:34 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

And actually, I just realized why I've been so annoyed with the whole "why do
you
think there wasn't a nightkill on Night Four?" conversation.

It is awfully reminescent of Verbose 2 Mafia. I could not come up with an explanation for the lack of kills in that game either. It turned out the reason in Verbose 2 was because the Mafia group had a quota they couldn't surpass in terms of nightkills. That was an explanation that never even once had crossed my mind. The same could be true of this game. It's not my job to explain why
I
think there wasn't a nightkill on Night 4, because the fact is I might still be thinking too much inside the box, trying to connect reasons to roles and explanations I have seen in the past. The best explanations we could come up with led the town down all sorts of wrong paths, and wasted valuable time since we were working under deadlines.

I'll deal with the information that I
know
, instead of information that I have to guess at. We can find out why there wasn't a nightkill when the game is over. Right now, I am more concerned with the fact that I think Glork is lying.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #961 (isolation #109) » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:08 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

I hate this game.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #962 (isolation #110) » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:08 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork, read through Nightson/VitaminR. Tell me what you think.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #968 (isolation #111) » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:47 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Post 494, Thok definitely gives off the impression that he was aware of Traitor roles looking to be recruited (direct reference to Verbose 2 Mafia). Thok also had a power role, and Glork is claiming to be a power role, except he is claiming that he was
not
told of the ability to be recruited by scum.

Also, the fact that Nightson also "got it" doesn't help, seeing as I'm of the opinion that you and Nightson/VitaminR are scum.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #973 (isolation #112) » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:18 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

VitaminR, it's hard to give a "concrete case" against somebody who was lurking, staying away from discussions, not giving any solid opinions, and ultimately needed replacement. I just feel that you're scum. The fact that Nightson has been so utterly useless and detrimental and yet
was never really attacked
(I would consider him a fairly easy target) by either CES or Twito, or even Glork to a large extent (who I believe to be scum), is sealing the deal to me that:

Scum were
avoiding
attacking Nightson because he is
scum
.

The wagons on Nightson always seemed to deteriorate without explanation. The voting patterns and the feel of this game tells me you're scum, and now the person I think you're scum with [Glork] is essentially refusing to vote for you.

I don't care which of you two is lynched today, because I'm fairly certain
at least
one of you (specifically both) is scum. And here's a fun note:
If there are two live scum, they can force the town to use
all four
of our collective votes in order to lynch even
one
of them, since it takes four to lynch.


I am almost to the point where I am going to make an ultimatum that I will not vote for anybody other than either Glork or VitaminR today. This would (of course) mean that the only possible scum that could be lynched today would have to be within {Glork, VitaminR}, since any other candidate would
necessarily
have to garner one vote from scum if the town plans on lynching scum at all.

This game just got a little funner. *eats banana* Teehee!
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #976 (isolation #113) » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:38 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Yep yep yep, good policy.

Slow things down when somebody is attacking
you
, speed them up when things are going how you want them.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #980 (isolation #114) » Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:28 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Hey you slackers. Try voting.

Quit pussy-footing around. If you
want
a No Lynch, vote No Lynch instead of making everybody wait on you. For those of you who
believe
Glork's claim, there is no risk in lynching somebody other than him: from that position, even if there are 2 Space Monkeys and even if we lynch a Gorilla today, Glork would still have a chance in blocking a kill this upcoming night leaving 3 v 2 tomorrow.

Spit spot.
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Post Post #984 (isolation #115) » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:46 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:Ah, the ol' "It's me or him, and it's not me" logic. I never implied that one of us would have to be lynched today (in fact, PJ seems to be the one doing that)... I'm saying that I'm following my role information and the information I've dug up against you and concluding that you're scum.
That's pretty stupid. Try reading over the day: does it look to you like any of Fritzler, VitaminR, dahen, or myself is going to be lynched? This day pretty much
has
been brought down to one of two lynches. Klebian is being perfectly realistic.
Glork wrote:I'm getting nothing more than OMGUS with some pretty crappy backing. Stay quiet, even state that you think you believe me but think I'm misguided, then at the end of the day, decide that I'm scum because I'm going after you, because no better mislynch alternative cameup.
Hey, here's a thought. What else do expect klebian to do? Say "geez, I guess you're right, I must be scum according to your information so I guess I might as well vote myself"? No. In a situation where the town is probably in LyLo, I would fully expect that he would rather
suspect the person who has been pushing for his lynch the entire day on information he has claimed to have for three days but has not acted on that information until now
. It seems perfectly reasonable to
me
.

Also, you've done much of the same thing. Start off accusing klebian, then back off of him... once people start suspecting you, you all of a sudden want things to "slow down" (despite the fact that you have been pushing for this game to go faster-faster-
faster
! the whole game up until now), and then as deadline approaches, you revote him.

I am mostly waiting on these slackers who aren't voting. This is disgusting. I already knew where Glork and Klebian were going to place their votes today: what I'm interested in are dahen, VitaminR, and Fritzler, and yet they seem to be doing their damnedest to stay away from the thread at all costs.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #988 (isolation #116) » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:26 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Oh? Let's test.

Unvote: Glork, Vote: VitaminR
.

And no, I don't much feel like explaining Post 961 to you at the moment.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #992 (isolation #117) » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:21 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Why no vote, Fritz?
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #996 (isolation #118) » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:34 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Yes, it is obvious what is missing in Glork's paraphrase, but it is firstly possible that scum were given a sample role PM before the game began and this whole discussion is silly, and will "confirm" somebody who ought not to be confirmed. It is further be possible that power roles do not have identical role PMs as regular Gorilla Soldiers, but do have additional flavor as to why they have powers.
PJ wrote:I am a Gorilla Soldier. My role explicitly states that I am scum, which is making me want to delete this post as I'm writing it. I was somehow separated from the Gorillas, have become subsequently lost, and I have no ammunition, and I have been waiting for the Gorillas to find me for four nights. I have no night choices whatsoever. I have asked Stoofer quite a few questions about my role, and he has refused to answer any of them.
Glork wrote:
PJ wrote:Tell me. Were you told if you were a Traitor? Were you told if you were lost? Were you told if you could be recruited? Were you told if you had weapons? I want to see a better paraphrase of what you're claiming.
I was basically told that, in the confusion on the ship's bridge, I had gotten separated from the other Gorillas. I was told that I had gotten lost, but I was not explicitly told that Gorillas were searching for me. I was also told that I had no weapons. However, having special officer training, I had the ability to convince other primates to stand down and take no action at night.
If you read carefully, there
is
one thing Glork mentions which I did not explicitly mention in my paraphrase. However, I would expect that specfic phraseology to be true of both Gorillas and a possible Space Monkey Traitor (even though he certainly made it explicit he had no 'traitorish' qualities about his role). Unlike Glork, I am not so quick to throw out such a possibility from my position. Seeing as the scum seem to have been trying to nightkill fairly experienced players (not including SpeedyKQ, this would include MrBuddyLee and Zindaras), an attempt to kill Glork while actually recruiting him to the Space Monkeys seems like a very plausible alternate theory in explaining the lack of a N4 kill.

The reason I had asked him to clarify earlier was because it was sounding like he was working
completely
off of my claim and then tossing on his own "Captain" flavor at the end. There isn't much in his responses which make me think otherwise.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1004 (isolation #119) » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:52 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Deadline in two days, guys. No point in trying to avoid the thread or voting. Would like to hear from Fritz and Klebian.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1009 (isolation #120) » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:40 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

BZZT. Wrong answer. I would have thought you would remember to look at the post StD was modkilled for before talking about win conditions.

Bah, looks like my vote is on VitaminR, probably because I wanted to take away all chances of quicklynching if it was possible. Tum-de-tum.

Unvote: VitaminR, Vote: Glork
.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1011 (isolation #121) » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:46 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Mm-hmm. Sounds like an answer from somebody who just screwed up.
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Post Post #1013 (isolation #122) » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:48 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

So is Fritz your scum-buddy, then? That might actually make more sense than Nightson/VitaminR, come to think of it.
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Post Post #1015 (isolation #123) » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:50 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

No. That's why I
said
I was voting VitaminR. That wasn't why I voted him. I'm not stupid enough to think Klebian would seriously suddenly want to vote for VitaminR at that time.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1016 (isolation #124) » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:53 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

And if you haven't noticed by now, Glork, my attack on you today was simply because:

1.) I knew I wasn't going to get lynched
2.) I haven't decided on who was scum
3.) I realized nobody else in the game was likely to attack you very much
4.) The best way to decide who I thought was scum or town was to give people multiple choices and see where they voted / expressed opinions

... but since everybody in this game has turned out to be a lazy [insert whatever word you want here], I have pretty much gained no information today, which is a large reason in why I hate this game: nobody ever gives opinions, and for when people actually did, I can't really use them because everybody will claim "I thought I was scum!". The town pretty much deserves to lose this game for it's inattentiveness at this point.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1017 (isolation #125) » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:56 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

^ Not to mention the fact that the town has pretty much been relying solely on Thok's Cop claim, and now instead of using scumminess or bothering to reread, they are reverting to using role PMs. This game is pretty sad overall.
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Post Post #1020 (isolation #126) » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:58 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Bah. Well, if Glork's scum, I doubt I'll be convincing two other people to vote with me in the next thousand minutes or so.

May as well hear from VitaminR (to confirm/deny encryption) and Fritz while the chance is still there, even though I think this is very likely a very stupid lynch.
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Post Post #1021 (isolation #127) » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:10 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

dahen wrote:I am suspcious about Glork, but so was I last time when he was town. The lack of kills and the return to Thok at the point it did fits well with a roleblocker. Glork was fast with his claim this day, which speaks in his favor too.
*sigh*

1.)
That doesn't mean Glork is town every time you find him suspicious.

2.)
The lack of kills can also be explained by other means (such as Traitor recruitment, Masterchief's role, etc)

3.)
Glork being fast with his claim means
nothing
. If he is scum, he has had
seven game days
over which to think of a claim, and in a possible LyLo situation, scum are going to claim as fast as possible to get the town to mislynch on what they think fits the situation best in order to achieve that.

Glork could not claim Cop, Vigilante, Tracker [too many results to fake and be consistent with his past statements], Doctor, and many other roles... really, as scum, his only fake power claim option was that of Role-Blocker. And he
couldn't
have claimed to have role-blocked any of Dahen/Fritzler/Nightson [VitaminR] because then there would have been
absolutely no excuse
for him to have not claimed this type of information on an uninvestigated person. That only leaves Klebian and myself to claim a role-blocking on, and since Klebian is by far the easier lynch of the two, Glork's play today is optimal for scum. Anybody who knows anything about rankings in military (or what have you) or with access to them would be able to think of going from Ensign => Lieutenant => Captain/Commander/Admiral, etc etc. Really, there is nothing in Glork's claim whatsoever which makes it "more likely" he is town, especially since he doesn't even have full Gorilla Traitor flavor.

Furthermore, Thok made it quite clear he knew about Traitors (with his "Et Tu, Glork" statement, which was a direct reference to Verbose 2 Mafia), while Glork denied having any Traitor flavor in his role PM.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1022 (isolation #128) » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:14 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Hmm.

Jelly Premonition tells me Fritz will probably just walk up and hammer, and there's nothing I can do to stop it at the moment. Only
you
have the option of unvoting Klebian if you are doubting!

There is really nothing "bad" which can happen from a No-Lynch (except there being a high likelihood of me finding my vaporized while nobody is watching), so it's not as if we
have
to lynch today.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1035 (isolation #129) » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:01 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Well, finally we have some information from votes. Certainly took long enough.

Glork:

If Klebian is scum, then it necessarily implies that the Space Monkeys
were
given a generic Gorilla Role PM. He can match flavor: you can't. And if that's true, there is nothing stopping Dahen from being paired with him (and even then, it's possible for Dahen to not have been given a Gorilla Role PM if he had an actual Space Monkey Traitor Role to explain his Traitor crumb). How does this change your opinion on Dahen, if at all?

I would personally expect scum who know they're in a LyLo situation to step up their game to make themselves look more innocent, so seeing some "wheel-churning" on behalf of Dahen today doesn't really do much for me.

Now that deadline is removed,
Unvote: Glork
.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1040 (isolation #130) » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:05 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Uh... from what I can tell, Klebian
did
mention what I had thought you were alluding to.

Also, you should stop asking for people to "spell it out". That's how StD got modkilled.
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Post Post #1042 (isolation #131) » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:59 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Well, the only person who I think is probably town at this point is Fritzler (for his lack of hammer today, and for the substance of his wagons earlier in the game). But since I've been pointing that out few days now, I suppose this doesn't really come as a surprise.

I'll try to find time to reread the game this weekend, but I can't make promises given my schedule.
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Post Post #1043 (isolation #132) » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:24 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Okay.

I've decided that the scum-group is probably one of:
1.) Glork + VitaminR (Nightson)
2.) Klebian + VitaminR (Nightson)

I'll go for the common denominator. Fritzler doesn't look like scum, and Dahen doesn't look like scum. I'm not scum. That leaves three players, and I doubt Glork and Klebian are scum (though if they are, congrats on pulling such a well-executed gambit).

Vote: VitaminR
. I think Nightson was one of the lurker Space Monkeys, trying consistently to stay out of discussion or taking any large stances. If I'm alive tomorrow, I can decide between Glork / Klebian, but it really shouldn't be a problem.

If one of these two pairings is correct (and VitaminR turns up scum), Glork will block Klebian tomorrow night. If there is a Nightkill, Klebian is cleared. If there is not a nightkill, then there are 5 players alive giving the town two lynches, so even if Glork is scum an purposely no-killed, the town can just lynch both Klebian and Glork anyhow.
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Post Post #1044 (isolation #133) » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:26 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

^ Also, that post assumes there are 2 Space Monkeys remaining. It is technically possible for there to be only 1 left.
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Post Post #1045 (isolation #134) » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:41 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

In fact, that's as good an exercise as any.

What pairings do all of you find to be most likely at this point? It can be more than two, but only include them if you think they are likely. We can work from there.
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Post Post #1047 (isolation #135) » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:09 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Ah, hmm, yes. Klebian/Fritzler is a possibility.
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Post Post #1051 (isolation #136) » Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:16 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Dahen, please read this slowly.
PJ wrote: 3.) Glork being fast with his claim means nothing. If he is scum, he has had seven game days over which to think of a claim, and in a possible LyLo situation, scum are going to claim as fast as possible to get the town to mislynch on what they think fits the situation best in order to achieve that.

Glork could not claim Cop, Vigilante, Tracker [too many results to fake and be consistent with his past statements], Doctor, and many other roles... really, as scum, his only fake power claim option was that of Role-Blocker. And he couldn't have claimed to have role-blocked any of Dahen/Fritzler/Nightson [VitaminR] because then there would have been absolutely no excuse for him to have not claimed this type of information on an uninvestigated person. That only leaves Klebian and myself to claim a role-blocking on, and since Klebian is by far the easier lynch of the two, Glork's play today is optimal for scum. Anybody who knows anything about rankings in military (or what have you) or with access to them would be able to think of going from Ensign => Lieutenant => Captain/Commander/Admiral, etc etc. Really, there is nothing in Glork's claim whatsoever which makes it "more likely" he is town, especially since he doesn't even have full Gorilla Traitor flavor.
Glork is an experienced players. Experienced players
will
have claims ready to use at the drop of a hat,
especially
if they've had an entire night during which to fashion their claim.

A quick claim is not a pro-town indicator this late in the game, with this type of player, in a possible LyLo situation.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1052 (isolation #137) » Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:32 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Also, Dahen, please read over Klebian's posts carefully. Then tell me whether or not you think Klebian truly "missed" the thing in the Gorilla Role PM which you have alluded to. You are the one who brought this subject up in the first place, so don't go thinking you can just ignore it now.
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Post Post #1053 (isolation #138) » Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:39 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Dahen, what do you think about VitaminR/Nightson? Details, s'il vous plait.
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Post Post #1057 (isolation #139) » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:36 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Klebian wrote:Well, I can't really see any encryption in Vitamin's post that represents the difference between glork's claim and my PM. He claims that he has the ability to convince other primates to stand down and take no action, while I am told that I was trying to slaughter the crew. Weapons may be another difference, but that doesn't seem significant enough.
Did you read this in particular, Dahen? I thought what Klebian mentioned here was precisely what you were alluding to, and I already think Klebian was pushing the line in saying
this
much.

If you [this is a collective you to both Dahen and VitaminR] think there is something more important that Klebian missed, say so.

VitaminR, you said you bread-crumbed the missing link? Let's hear it. And then let's hear why it is different from what Klebian claimed.

@ VitaminR: It's always "fair" when lynching scum.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1058 (isolation #140) » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:44 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

PJ wrote:What pairings do all of you find to be most likely at this point? It can be more than two, but only include them if you think they are likely. We can work from there.
Hey, way to avoid the question posed here, VitaminR. I fully expect an answer.

You can, however, talk about your crumb
after
Dahen confirms/denies whether or not the missing flavor is in what I quoted of Klebian.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1062 (isolation #141) » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:19 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

I'm posting from the school library because a thought just hit me.

If Klebian is scum, the only possible partner for Klebian from VitaminR's perspective is Fritzler. I cannot be scum with Klebian (giving two scum investigation immunity in a game like this is bastard moddery, plain and simple). Glork cannot be scum with Klebian (this is possible, but VitaminR has already expressed the opinion that he thinks Glork is town). I would laugh if VitaminR tried to call Dahen scum after going along with the "flavor" hinting this whole time... and that only leaves Fritzler.

Glork, I might be confusing games, but haven't you continaully said that you think Fritzler is Gorilla Town in this game? If you think this is so, you really
have
to believe that VitaminR is scum along with Klebian.

Seeing as my two biggest guesses for scum are {Klebian + VitaminR} and {Glork + VitaminR}, I'm not understanding why you are not voting for VitaminR at this point.

In fact, I will make this easier.

I will refuse to vote for Klebian today. Even if he is scum, I would rather lynch the partner (if there is a partner). Since I am town, if Klebian is going to be lynched, it is NECESSARY that the scum-partner of Klebian also votes for Klebian. In other words, scum can force the town into not lynching Klebian if they so choose.

Enter: Level Two.

My way accounts for both of my scum-groups. If either of them is true, the town's win percentage jumps to 100% by this plan. If either Glork or Klebian are scum, lynching wrong today means the town loses (and we have a 50% chance). But lynching VitaminR brings the town to 5 players, and Glork then must role-block Klebian. If there's a kill, Klebian is cleared... if there's no kill, then there will be five alive and the town will still have two lynches at it's disposal, so that both Glork and Klebian can be lynched.

Easy peasy. Chop chop. You guys are gonna have to compromise.
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Post Post #1065 (isolation #142) » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:29 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Frankly, I don't think who you think to be the scum-groups matters. I'm the confirmed innocent; you're not. I already pretty much know what all of you have to say from your respective positions, so it's not like I'm surprised by your answer.

I can see it either way.

If Klebian is scum:

1.) Fritz is wavering on Klebian because he doesn't want to hammer his partner if there's a possibility of lynching somebody else. Note, however, that Fritzler has never said he would vote Glork.
2.) VitaminR tried to give himself room to vote for Glork for pretty much all of today, until it was clear that nobody else in the town would. Only then did he bother to vote Klebian {i.e. even if he was scum with Klebian, he would think this to be the best move}.

If Klebian is town:

Then Glork is really necessarily scum (I doubt the scumgroup would be VitaminR + Dahen, but even if that is the case, VitaminR would still clearly be the correct lynch today).

And if Glork is scum, then Fritzler is not his partner, which pretty much leaves Dahen (which is more than possible, but the whole "let's compare role PM's" skit makes me doubt that), or VitaminR (making him the correct lynch again).

In review:
1.) Klebian Town, Scum = {Glork, VitaminR}
2.) Klebian Town, Scum = {Dahen, VitaminR}
3.) Klebian Scum, Partner = {VitaminR}
4.) Klebian Scum, Partner = {Fritzler}

3/4 scenarios tell me VitaminR is scum. And even if VitaminR is town,
if
Glork is town, then he has a fair chance of role-blocking the remaining scum from having a successful nightkill.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1067 (isolation #143) » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:58 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Except I don't think it is Klebian + Dahen. So there is no point in me including it in the scenarios I think are reasonably feasible.
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Post Post #1073 (isolation #144) » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:30 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

If Fritz + Glork were scum, Fritzler already would have hammered you and the game would be over.
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Post Post #1080 (isolation #145) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:49 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Well, I do have this strange habit of voting for people when I think they're scum. :roll:
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Post Post #1082 (isolation #146) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:19 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Believe it or not, I have mentioned other reasons why I think you are scum. But in any case:

1.) Nightson never did anything. If you expect me to make a compelling case from
nothing
, you can just prepare to be disappointed. So far as I'm concerned, Nightson was a lurking Space Monkey trying to stay out of the way and let the town self-destruct.

2.) You have replaced in on the
last day
. I don't expect anybody replacing in at this juncture of a game to do something so blatantly scummy that they'll get lynched for it. So expecting a compelling case against you is also unreasonable.

Fact is, from my perspective, you fit in with most of the possible scum-group pairings. So I want you dead.
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Post Post #1084 (isolation #147) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:47 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

How about you tell me what you have done that is
pro-town
? This can apply to anything Nightson has said as well.
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Post Post #1087 (isolation #148) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:34 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Let's see...
Scum Pairings wrote:
Klebian + VitaminR

Klebian + Glork
Unlikely
Klebian + Dahen
Unlikely
Klebian + Fritzler


VitaminR + Glork

VitaminR + Dahen

VitaminR + Fritzler
Unlikely

Glork + Dahen
Unlikely
Glork + Fritzler
Pretty much impossible

Dahen + Fritzler
Unlikely
Really, it comes down to this

1.) Either Klebian or Glork are scum (unless VitaminR + Dahen); and
2.) Either VitaminR or Fritzler are scum

I think lynching one of Klebian or Glork today is fairly stupid.

->
A.)
If we lynch Klebian as town, then Glork is scum, and the game ends automatically (assuming two scum, naturally).
->
B.)
If we lynch Glork as town, then the scum will win (since town will have no method left in which to stop a kill).

Lynching one of VitaminR or Fritzler is the play today.

->
A.)
If we lynch VitaminR as town, then the town still has the
chance
that Glork is town. And if that is true, then so far as I'm concerned, the scum are {Fritzler, Klebian}. This would give Glork a 50% chance at role-blocking correctly.
->
B.
If we lynch Fritzler as town, then the town still has the
chance
that Glork is town. And if that is true, the scum are {VitaminR, Klebian}. This would give Glork a 50% chance at role-blockng correctly.

But
Unvote: VitaminR
for discussion purposes.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1088 (isolation #149) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:38 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

EBWOP:

I suppose I'll change this to make VitaminR happy.
PJ wrote:-> A.) If we lynch Klebian as town, then
if
Glork is town, he still has a chance at blocking scum {VitaminR + Dahen}.
^ Fact is, Dahen + VitaminR seems fairly unlikely, but not
so
unlikely that I would cross it off the list entirely. I'm more in the mindset that if Klebian is town, Glork is scum.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1091 (isolation #150) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:51 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Hold it, Glork.

If Space Monkeys
are
given Gorilla flavor, I would expect (since I definitely would have done this had I been in such a position) for at least one of them to "crumb" being a Gorilla Traitor. And since you keep calling Dahen a "deliberate player", I can imagine he had plenty of time before placing his crumbs to think over how to place them, and how they could affect perceptions of him later in the game.
VitaminR wrote:Why are klebian + dahen & Glork + dahen unlikely, btw?
1.) Because I have seen many people bus their partners, and I have had to bus useless partners in the past (*coughGLORKcough*). As such, I have attained somewhat of a feel for what busing via trying to get one's partner to make a mistake you can hammer specificially (to make yourself look more protown in the process) looks like. I don't think the interactions between Klebian and Dahen support this.

2.) I find Glork + Dahen unlikely based on their general interactions; it's easy to see connections (each of them calling each other town, etc), but the way Glork expressed not knowing Gorilla Role PM's while Dahen
did
(and particularly, that Dahen was the one pushing that agenda) suggests to me that they would either have to be very well coordinated [certainly possible, but with my experience with Glork-scum, he sucks at coordinating with his partners this intricately] or not working together at all. I find the latter much more probable.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1093 (isolation #151) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:32 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

^ That's what I get for thinking about things while trying to make vote counts in other games. Apologies.
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Post Post #1095 (isolation #152) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:47 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Nope. I'm confirmed innocent. I get to say whatever I want. :wink: You're the one who has to watch what you say, not me.

So what do you think of Dahen?
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Post Post #1097 (isolation #153) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:07 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Oh? I'm more on the ball than you think.
Glork, Jan. 30 wrote:I agree that Dahen is probably pro-town, so by mere process of elimination, I'm looking at a scumgroup of Fritz, Twito, and Nightson unless there are Godfather-esque factors involved (in which case, I'm actually looking at Klebian now, rather than PJ, as I'm less confident that scums would be given a full Gorilla Soldier PM). Out of everybody, I'm most comfortable with a Nightson lynch, followed by lynches on Twito and Fritz.
Glork, you never once talked about Dahen whatsoever (after the Gorilla revelation) until this post. So you started off by saying Dahen is "probably pro-town" with no reasoning behind it.

Your other posts about Dahen looked like this:
Glork, Jan. 27 wrote:In other news, I'd
REALLY
like to hear from Dahen soon. I know he's had limited access recently, but he has been surprisingly quiet as of late.
Glork, Feb. 2 wrote:Dear Dahen,

You posted in nearly all of your games in the past day, yet you seem to be neglecting this one. Why is that? Do you not like us? Are you hoping to lurk your way to victory? What are your thoughts?

XOXO,
Glork
Glork, Feb. 5 wrote:Dahen, where is your post?
Then when asked about Dahen, we have:
Glork, Feb. 13 wrote:I think that his earlier hint-dropping is a huge plus for him, and I think that he's attempted to be much more helpful than either Nightson or Fritzler.
Funny! Now hint-dropping means nothing, and I think "being helpful" in LyLo situations is a null tell. Scum are guaranteed to try to be as "helpful" as humany possible if it secures a win.
Glork, Feb. 13 wrote:The only one I'd really give serious consideration to is the "Dahen might be a Space Monkey traitor" notion. I suppose we have to consider the possibility that scum might have recruited a traitor N4. That would certainly be throwing me in for a loop. I want to hear from Dahen on this matter.
Let's see... "let's hear from Dahen"! This seems to be a running theme for Glork.
Glork, Feb. 13 wrote:I also doubt that the scums were given a sample Townie PM. Like I indicated earlier in the game, Stoof traditionally gives a Townie win condition, but I certainly don't expect him to give them any more information by which they could easily "confirm" themselves. We've had enough trouble discerning scum from town as is, and giving the sucms the ability to quote soldier-ness and traitor-esque flavor/clauses is a little overboard, IMO.
Hmm... so Space Monkeys
don't
have Gorilla PMs according to Glork...

And oh my! Look at this:
Glork, Feb. 13 wrote:Now that I think about it, I suppose a very clever SM-Dahen might have gone "Hmm, I bet the townspeople all think that they're Traitors. I'll drop hints as if I'm one, too." But my gut is telling me that this is not the case. No offense to Dahen, but I don't think he's that clever; it's something I might have seen from, say, CES... but not Dahen.
I thought you
just said
you would
expect
Dahen to do this. Gee gosh willickers, I'd better check!
Glork, March 6 wrote:I should make it clear that I think that Dahen is more likely to be pro-town than Fritz, Klebian, or VitaminR, but *not* because of his confirmation behavior. That's something that I would absolutely have tried myself if I were scum with Soldier flavor/PM.
Well that's strange... first, you doubted that Dahen would be clever enough to drop crumbs and hence that made him more likely to be pro-town - but now it's apparently not a factor. And you are now citing "other reasons", which is left entirely vague. So let's find them.
Glork wrote:There are two other things that make me think that Dahen is probably town. First of all, he hasn't played as though he's pseudo-confirmed, which is what I'd expect a scumbag to do. In his most recent analysis, for example, he included his own voting/posting records in his most recent analysis. His play also vaguely reminds me of Mini 358, the last game we were in together. His most recent post in particular reminds me of the way he would talk with Devo and myself, when he *was* a confirmed innocent.
1.) Dahen has not been investigated, so of course he is not going to act pseudo-confirmed regardless of his role.
Nobody
is or has acted confirmed except
me
, and that's because I
am
confirmed.
2.) Do you seriously think Dahen would play
differently
in this game given that you have had another experience with him in a very long endgame? If he is scum, he is probably going to try to match his play as consistently as possible as with that other game. Players do tend to try to act consistent with prior behavior so they are harder to read.

In other words, I don't really agree with either of your reasons here.
Glork, Feb. 20 wrote:Basically, my conclusion, PJ: Based on Nightson's posts so far, I find it entirely possible that he's scum, but not enough to put him ahead of Friztler or Dahen right now, and certainly not enough to put him above Klebian. I will look at VitaminR's posts later.
Funny. You seem to have been giving the impression of Dahen being the most likely Gorilla up to this point, but here you imply that Nightson is not scummy enough to make him scummier than Dahen.

So far as your Post 1041 goes, you really have nothing to indicate why you think Dahen is pro-town.

To be frank, your posts are giving me the impression that you are trying to play up your past experience with Dahen so that he thinks you're town, while having also tried to make VitaminR/Nightson an "option" the entire game (you offered to hammer Nightson once - and it never happened), but only in such a way that you have completely avoided Nightson/VitaminR lynches the entire game.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1098 (isolation #154) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:09 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Oh, right, I should make this more clear.

Do you or don't you think Dahen would be "clever enough" to drop Traitor hints as a Space Monkey?
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1099 (isolation #155) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:16 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Oh yes, let's go further. Sometimes my fingers don't type everything I'm thinking about, I thought I had made this clearer as well.
PJ wrote:1.) Dahen has not been investigated, so of course he is not going to act pseudo-confirmed regardless of his role. Nobody is or has acted confirmed except me, and that's because I am confirmed.
Alternatively, Klebian
has
been investigated, and
he
has never once acted like a pseudo-confirmed innocent. Does that make him more likely to be town?
PJ wrote:2.) Do you seriously think Dahen would play differently in this game given that you have had another experience with him in a very long endgame? If he is scum, he is probably going to try to match his play as consistently as possible as with that other game. Players do tend to try to act consistent with prior behavior so they are harder to read.
Additionally, since you have no "dahenscum frame" from which to work, I fail to see how playing consistently across two games can hold this much weight.

Note: To be honest, though, I know that I have also used one-game experiences in order to get reads on people (you might as well use whatever information you have), but judging a player on how they act in an endgame situation in particular seems particularly silly: scum are going to try to look as town as humanly possible in endgames, and if playing similarly to past games is what is necessary, it will be done.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1102 (isolation #156) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:41 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

FoS: Glork
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1103 (isolation #157) » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:49 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Also, if anybody would like to point out the
huge
thing Glork did wrong there, I'll give you a jelly point. Limited time only.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1105 (isolation #158) » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:15 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

No takers?

I have bananas. C'mon, it's not this difficult to post. I don't remember selling tickets to a "Glork and PJ Show", so I am under the impression there are supposedly other people playing.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1106 (isolation #159) » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:04 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Also, Dahen, explain to me how what you/VitaminR were hinting at was somehow "unaddressed" in role claims up until now.
PJ, Post 530 wrote:I am a Gorilla Soldier. My role explicitly states that I am scum, which is making me want to delete this post as I'm writing it. I was somehow separated from the Gorillas, have become subsequently lost,
and I have no ammunition
, and I have been waiting for the Gorillas to find me for four nights. I have no night choices whatsoever. I have asked Stoofer quite a few questions about my role, and he has refused to answer any of them.
You posted:
Dahen wrote:...And I'll probably vote Klebian if Glork himself can look at his PM and compare it to his claim and tell where it differs the most.

Glork, if you can see what I'm thinking about and correct it, spell it out and I'll vote Klebian.

PJ (confirmed), if you see what I'm thinking about, say so, but don't reveal it!

The rest (unconfirmed + Klebian), if you see what I'm thinking about, spell it out and I'll probably think you are pro-town.
In fact, I'm not much caring for your narrow-mindedness you have been displaying (I get to do so because I'm jelly, so I am hereby disallowing you from any response along the line's of "but
you've
been narrow-minded!").

1.)
Dahen wrote:I am going to vote Glork or Klebian.
Do you still hold this opinion despite my most recent analysis on the problems of voting either Glork v Klebian when there are other alternatives?

2.)
Dahen wrote:If this is true, then
PJ must change his vote to avoid a no-lynch.


PJ, I like the efforts you are putting into this. Please keep it up. You're doing a good job, but I don't agree with your conclusions this time. I wouldn't call the game sad. I enjoy it very much.

No need waiting for Fritzler, let's get this vote in.
Two pushes for me to vote in the same post. These are exactly the types of things I look for near endgames; scum just want the game over with as soon as possible, and want townspeople to vote without first considering the consequences; and not only that, but "I don't need to wait for Fritzler", which I read as "I just speculated on a Klebian + Fritlzer scumgroup, so let's hurry up and lynch Klebian before Fritzler can respond". Definitely not kosher.

3.) Then you continue to poke for flavor (instead of going after scumminess, you keep trying to compare role PMs, which I am more than slightly disturbed by):
Dahen wrote:Klebian, I'm not totally impressed by your input to the flavor discussion. Could you please spell it out what you think I am looking for.
... when I actually think Klebian was
more
specific than you were looking for. I'll quote his response once more:
Klebian wrote:Well, I can't really see any encryption in Vitamin's post that represents the difference between glork's claim and my PM. He claims that he has the ability to convince other primates to stand down and take no action, while I am told that I was trying to slaughter the crew.
Weapons may be another difference, but that doesn't seem significant enough.
This has
two
particular distinctions.

-> A.) Weapons (with what I believe to be an implicit lack of ammunition)
-> B.) In Klebians words, he is "trying to slaughter the crew"

I, in fact, agree with Klebian here. Seeing as
I
had mentioned ammunition in my claim post, and Glork has mentioned weapons in his claim post, I
also
didn't think this was the "difference" you were aiming at. I thought it was the second I just mentioned here. And despite this, you acted as if Klebian had somehow not answered your question.

So now: care to answer why you thought the first was the "biggest difference" and not the second?
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1109 (isolation #160) » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:12 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

How can I watch a show if I'm one of the actors? And do I even get a cut of the profits? :?
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1111 (isolation #161) » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:13 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Nope, nope, nope.

Just reread all of Klebian's posts. I don't think he's scum, especially when oupled with the fact that Klebian has an innocent investigation on him,
and
the fact that I highly doubt there would be a Godfather role in this game to further screw the town. And this means Fritzler is probably also town or else he would have just hammered Klebian (though it is possible if there is one scum left).

This brings me back to {Glork, VitaminR, Dahen}.

Glork's claim looks like a scum-claim. Dahen's crumbs mean nothing (and it could in fact be true that he is a Space Monkey traitor who was recruited on N4). And Nightson/VitaminR has pretty much nothing going for them.

Silly game.
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Post Post #1115 (isolation #162) » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:54 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Three Conditions


1.) If anybody does not post within the next 24 hours of this post, I will vote for them immediately and support their death with a full head of steam. Nobody has mentioned anywhere being absent tomorrow, so nobody will have a problem. Excuses will not be tolerated.

2.) If everybody posts by said time above, then anybody who posts without voting (or confirm voting) will be voted by me immediately, etc etc.

3.) If multiple people either don't post, or do post but without voting, the order of who I will vote are thus:

Vote First - {Fritzler, VitaminR, Dahen, Glork, Klebian} - Vote Last

***

I'm not quite sure how you people to expect me to make a decision when hardly any of you are. I have the least information out of anybody in this game - I don't need to be told that I confirmed innocent, and I do not have the privelege of knowing any of your roles. Try helping me out, here. You all should be able to make a more informed choice than I can, and yet it feels like I am boxing with shadows.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1119 (isolation #163) » Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:20 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

I'm sorry.

I didn't see a vote or a confirm vote in either Glork's or VitaminR's posts. I therefore did not read either of them.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1128 (isolation #164) » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:23 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

*bites Glork*

Two scums. I won't be voting unless everybody else has a vote somewhere.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1131 (isolation #165) » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:37 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

So, lessee.
Scum Pairings wrote:
Klebian + VitaminR

Klebian + Glork
Unlikely
Klebian + Dahen
Unlikely
Klebian + Fritzler


VitaminR + Glork

VitaminR + Dahen

VitaminR + Fritzler
Unlikely

Glork + Dahen
Pretty much impossible
Glork + Fritzler
Pretty much impossible

Dahen + Fritzler
Unlikely
Glork + Dahen has been changed to pretty much impossible, because if that were the scumgroup, all Glork would have had to do was leave his vote on VitaminR, and Dahen could have walked up and hammered.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1135 (isolation #166) » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:11 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Hmm?

No, I'm thinking about stuff, Dahen. I might hammer VitaminR, I might not.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1137 (isolation #167) » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:09 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Hum, hum, hum.

If Glork is scum, he would have just screwed himself by voting for VitaminR, since he would then be forced to block Klebian tonight. No-kills means lynching Klebian on D8, and if necessary, Glork on D9. A kill clears Klebian thereby making Glork scum who clearly tried to frame Klebian for Night Four (and I would not let him try to talk himself out of this whatsoever).

O'course, there's nothing stopping him from voting VitaminR hoping I would have this exact thought process, or whatever, WIFOM and such.

Also, VitaminR, if you can't say something besides "I can't see the evidence against me", just don't say anything at all. That only makes me want to lynch you on the spot.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1139 (isolation #168) » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:50 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:PJ, could you explain why Kleb/Dahen is unlikely in your eyes? I think I'm missing something. Is it Dahen's willingness to lynch Klebian, or is it something else?
Because if Dahen was scum with Klebian (hence making VitaminR town), he probably would have just lynched VitaminR by now and taken his chances. The willingness to lynch Klebian, and the fact that I haven't found Dahen to be too scummy are also factors. Of course, the fact that he tried to get me to vote for VitaminR myself was a black mark against him. Signs of eagerness in the face of a possible LyLo situation is something I don't particularly like.

But I'm still thinking. I'm going to try to read this game later tonight (or perhaps tomorrow afternoon) twice over: the first time reading as if I had no information except my role and the dead roles (not even with Thok's investigations), and the second time with the knowledge of who has voted who today, your claim and targets, and Thok's investigations.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1141 (isolation #169) » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:07 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Because I sometimes have visions of the future.

Obv.
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Post Post #1145 (isolation #170) » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:14 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Well, I might give you more reasons when I do my reread. I'm busy trying to read Kant for an essay I need to be writing at the moment, when I thought I would check up on mafia games (in other words, I have OCD in addition to ESP). I can't recall my reasons for everything I've said up until this point.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1150 (isolation #171) » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:37 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Asking if I "wanted to hammer VitaminR" would be a good way to make sure you aren't role-blocked if you are scum. Getting townspeople to do your work for you is always the way scum would prefer to do things. Hence, black mark.
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Post Post #1153 (isolation #172) » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:56 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

End of Day One
: 17 Alive

bird1111
: 9 (
Twito
,
STD
,
CES
,
Fritzler, klebian
,
Phoebus, inHimshallibe, Zindaras
,
Nightson/VitaminR
)
MrBuddyLee
: 2 (
Glork
,
Pooky
)
Glork
: 1 (
MBL
)
Phoebus
: 1 (
Bogre
)
Nightson
: 1 (
petroleumjelly
)

Not Voting: 3 (
bird1111, Masterchief/Twomz,
Dahen
)

Killed Night Two: MrBuddyLee

End of Day Two
: 15 Alive
inHimshallibe
: 8 (
Twito
,
STD
,
Fritzler, klebian
,
CES
,
Pooky, Masterchief
,
Glork
)
petroleumjelly
: 2 (
inHimshallibe, Thok
)
Twito
: 1 (
Phoebus
)
Glork
: 1 (
petroleumjelly
)

Not Voting: 3 (
Dahen
,
Nightson/VitaminR
,
Zindaras
)

Killed Night Three: Zindaras

End of Day Three
: 13 Alive
Cogito Ergo Sum
: 7 (
Thok, petroleumjelly
,
Glork
,
Dahen
,
STD, Pooky
,
Fritzler
)
Masterchief
: 1 (
Twito
)
Twito
: 1 (
Masterchief
)

Not Voting: 4 (
CES
,
spectrumvoid/Phoebus
,
klebian
,
VitaminR/Nightson
)

Killed Night Four: Nobody

End of Day Four
: 12 Alive
Masterchief
: 7 (
Twito
,
AndrewS
,
Nightson/VitaminR
,
Dahen
,
spectrumvoid, petroleumjelly, Thok
),
Glork
*

Not Voting: 5 (
Glork
*,
Masterchief
,
Fritzler, klebian
,
STD
)

Killed Night Five: spectrumvoid/Phoebus

*Note: Glork is considered to have been on this wagon.

End of Day Five
: 10 Alive
Save The Dragons
: 3 (
Glork
,
Fritzler, klebian
)
Nightson
: 3 (
AndrewS, Thok, petroleumjelly
)
Fritzler
: 1 (
Twito
)
Glork
: 1 (
STD
)

Not Voting: 2 (
Dahen
,
Nightson/VitaminR
)

Note: Day 5 is probably the most telling day in the whole game. The three people who voted for StD-town are all alive and unconfirmed, whereas the three other choices for a lynch are all unconfirmeds, and furthermore, the three voters on Nightson are all confirmed town.

Killed Night Six: AndrewS

End of Day Six
: 8 Alive
Twito
: 5 (
Thok
,
Dahen
,
petroleumjelly,
Glork
,
klebian
)

Not voting: 3 (
Fritzler
,
Nightson/VitaminR
,
Twito
)

Killed Night Seven: Thok

Miscellanous note:
~ Fritzler + Klebian have never been on two different people at the end of a day. The most difference they have shown is one of them not voting while the other is. The first time this happened was when CES-scum was lynched, and the second time this happens when was Twito-scum was lynched. For this reason, I have high-lighted each of them in blue.

EBWOP:
Dahen wrote:...Glork+Fritzler...
Pay attention. If it were Glork + Fritzler, Fritzler would have hammered Klebian ages ago when he had the chance. I've pointed this exact same thing out elsewhere.
Dahen wrote:Do you think there is a chance on earth that Glork would block/claim to have blocked you in this game?
WTH are you talking about? No: if Glork is town, he wouldn't block me if I chose to hammer VitaminR right now. But if you hammered VitaminR, that would indicate a higher chance of you being scum, which could in turn make him block you. If you could (as scum) get me to hammer VitaminR-town and hence leave yourself clean of the bandwagon entirely, you would be guaranteed to do so. Seriously not that difficult to understand.

*Yawn* Jelly is tired. Suppose that complete reread will have to wait.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1161 (isolation #173) » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:45 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Feh, this lousy game. Guess I'll still have to reread this sucker before tonight is through.

Glork


I don't like Glork's claim one bit. He seriously needs to learn how to play better with power roles if he is actually town. I also don't like his actions for pretty much this entire game.

But the problem is currently who his partner would be:

1.)
Not with Fritzler, or Klebian would have been lynched.
2.)
Not with Dahen, or VitaminR would have been lynched.
3.)
Unlikely with Klebian, though possible. I haven't dismissed this.
4.)
Possibly with VitaminR. What is getting me is that his early gameplay suggests {Nightson/VitaminR + Glork}, but the play today suggests the opposite. However, in LyLo situation, scummates usually go to great lengths to do whatever possible to dissociate themselves from each other (in my experience, I am usually better at reading scum-pairs earlier in a LyLo day than later in a LyLo day specifically because I tend to find something that changes my mind). This also would fit in with the general scumgroup I would imagine of {2-3 lurkers, 1-2 actives}.

VitaminR


Nightson was completley useless: pretty much exactly how the other scum {CES and Twito} were. I would expect similar play from at least one other scum, in addition to an "active" scum to whisk town suspicions in places other than lurkerscums. VitaminR's supposed "deliberative mood" today means nothing to me, because I know scum placed in a LyLo situation are likely to act exactly like VitaminR has.

1.)
Possibly with Glork (see above)
2.)
Unlikely with Fritzler, or Fritlzer could have hammered Klebian instead, and probably wouldn't be voting VitaminR right now.
3.)
Possibly with Klebian.
4.)
Possibly with Dahen.

Fritzler


1.)
Not with Glork.
2.)
Unlikely with VitaminR.
3.)
Unlikely with Dahen.
4.)
Possibly with Klebian.

Dahen


1.)
Not with Glork (would have voted VitaminR).
2.)
Possibly with VitaminR.
3.)
Unlikely with Fritzler (would have voted VitaminR).
4.)
Unlikely with Klebian (general interactions, lack of VitaminR vote).

Klebian


1.)
Unlikely with Glork.
2.)
Possibly with VitaminR.
3.)
Unlikely with Dahen.
4.)
Possibly with Fritzler.

I'll be voting by tonight.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1163 (isolation #174) » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:11 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Vote: Klebian
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1166 (isolation #175) » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:12 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Hrm. No, I'll give it more thought.

Unvote


Two hours from now, then.
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Post Post #1168 (isolation #176) » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:19 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

About what?
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1173 (isolation #177) » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:33 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Lack of a hammer when I could unvote at any time (and when you would likely be expecting a quick unvote) doesn't mean anything. You literally had a time-frame of less than a minute, and that was only if you were paying perfect attention. *rolls eyes*

Where did Dahen go in your calculations?
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Post Post #1176 (isolation #178) » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:46 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Vote: Klebian


Also, I will restate that your lack of hammer mean nothings. No matter how many times you click "refresh", there is always the possibility that I could have slipped in an unvote which would catch you red-handed.

In fact, this discussion thread shows why I pretty much don't really care about your lack of hammer in the circumstances.

My vote will not change for the next ten minutes, however. It could change later, but this would probably help my thought processes. And if this results in town loss, then oh well.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1181 (isolation #179) » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:55 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Frick. Guess I'll see what happens. *sigh*
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Post Post #1184 (isolation #180) » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:46 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Pfeh.

So Glork + VitR, I take it?
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Post Post #1214 (isolation #181) » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:31 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Stoofer wrote:I'm still waiting nervously for petroleumjelly's comments.
Don't bother. This game depresses me too much.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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Post Post #1217 (isolation #182) » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:04 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Well, it's 3:00 am, but I can't go to sleep because I keep telling myself what a <
Preemptory Deletion of Cursing
> idiot I am.

So I figured explaining
exactly
how stupid I feel is appropriate. I'll go down what I think to be a fairly easy-to-follow thought process.

Klebian

1.) I reread Klebian's posts multiple times. Every time I did so, I was convinced he was a Gorilla by his actions, words, thought process, etc.
2.) Thok had investigated Klebian to be a Gorilla.
3.) I sincerely doubted Stoofer would give a Space Monkey investigative immunity in this game.
4.) Therefore, I would conclude that Klebian was a Gorilla.

Fritzler

5.) This, in turn, continually led me to the conclusion that Fritzler must also be a Gorilla (for his lack of hammer with ample time).
6.) Necessarily, this meant the scumgroup was in {Glork, Dahen, VitaminR}.

Glork

7.) Glork's claim was the most convenient thing under the sun. "Captain" was obvious, "Role-Blocker" was obvious, and "targeting Klebian" on N4 was obvious.
8.) Glork's behavior during the game in relation to Klebian was entirely inconsistent with his "information".
9.) Glork's asking people "are you space monkey or gorilla" raised my haunches as soon as I saw it, and on every subsequent reread. I still think it was a trap question.
10.) Glork "understanding the mechanic" so quickly was highly unusual. He says "lots of people got it", but that's patently false. Nightson (who claimed to get it) was scum, Glork (who claimed to get it) was scum, and Thok (who claimed to get it) had 3-4 investigations, which would make it entirely obvious for him. Anybody like me, who continually reads their role PM over and over, and keeps seeing the fact "you are SCUM" is going to have a hard time accepting that they are
town
.
11.) Glork's attack on Masterchief soured my taste every time I went through it. Very reminiscent of Committee - go after the weak players because they are bound to screw up.
12.) Glork's stances towards Nightson the entire game were entirely too lenient - he continually said he expected scum to "lurk and not contribute", but somehow Nightson kept ending up in Glork's blind spot.
13.) Glork had numerous interactions with Nightson on Day One (which both Ibaesha and myself noticed immediately).

Nightson/VitaminR

14.) Nightson was completely useless the entire game. The only notable thing about him whatsoever were his ties to Glork.
15.) VitaminR replaced into the game being as wishy-washy towards Glork as humanly possible. I noted this immediately, in that if he were scum, that would be exactly what type of play I would expect.
16.) VitaminR's catch-phrase of the game was "you haven't presented a logical argument against me", which is something I can sympathize with, but that doesn't in any way make him
less
likely to be scum or somehow
make
him town.

Dahen

17.) I believed Dahen's bread-crumbs were legitimate, which in turn led me to one of three conclusions.
-> A.) Dahen was a Gorilla
-> B.) Dahen was a Space Monkey Traitor
-> C.) The Space Monkeys were given the Gorilla role PM
18.) A Space Monkey Traitor seemed horribly incongruous with this game in particular to the point where I doubted it, but still had to keep it in the back of my mind as a possibility.
19.) After the "flavor" discussion, I was convinced that the Space Monkeys must have been given the Gorilla Town PM (since by that time it became clear that everybody could claim "flavor", or at the very least, would be able to piggy-back on previously claimed flavor). I unfortunately also figured that this meant they had been given the PM at the
beginning
of the game, since I did not think Stoofer was the type of Mod who would interfere with games once they have already run.*

Where Things Started Going Wrong

20.) The thought that Space Monkeys were given the Gorilla Town PM from the start of the game made me double-think my views on Dahen
and
Klebian, since it would now seem plausible for Klebian to possibly make the posts he did as a Space Monkey trying his damnedest to look like a Gorilla.
21.) This in turn brought Fritzler back into the equation.
22.) After compiling voting patterns, I noted that {Klebian, Fritzler} were together on every lynchee, except for when one of them was not voting. Normally I would consider this a point
against
a possible connection, but I know that Fritzler is unorthodox enough of a player that it seemed entirely within the realm of possibility for him to vote with his partner every lynch.
23.) Fritzler's lack of hammer on Klebian on D7, then, became all the more significant.
24.) The biggest completely in-game factor was by far the lack of nightkill on N4.** I had figured that Masterchief was indeed a Back-Up Cop for Thok, so there was currently no explanation on the table for why there would not have been a kill.
25.) The only possible explanations I could really think of were:
-> A.) Successful Doctor Protection
-> B.) Successful Role-Blocking
-> C.) Unnightkillable Role
-> D.) Space Monkeys recruited a Traitor (i.e. Dahen)
-> E.) Something I was not considering (which it turned out to be)
26.) A purposeful "No Kill" was
completely
out of the question. No self-respecting scum-group would
ever
send in a No-Kill when there is a claimed Cop alive - it would always be better to at least take a shot at the Cop, and even if it is blocked, the town will see the exact same result: a lack of a kill.
27.) I knew that nobody in the game was a Doctor. Fritzler had already said Traitor, Dahen crumbed Traitor, VitaminR/Nightson claimed Traitor, and Klebian had claimed Traitor.
28.) An Unnightkillable role seemed entirely un-Stoofer-like, especially in a set-up as messed up as this.
29.) This left that either there was a successful role-blocking (i.e. Glork is Gorilla) or successful recruit (i.e. Dahen Space Monkey).

Set-Up Thoughts

30.) I then started to think about types of Set-Ups I would think Stoofer would use. It seemed as if it was going to have to be one of two things.
-> A.) 1 Cop, 1 Back-Up Cop, 11 Gorillas, 4 Space Monkeys {with role PMs}
-> B.) 1 Cop, 1 Back-Up Cop, 1 Role-Blocker, 10 Gorillas, 4 Space Monkeys {with a Godfather, and role PMs}
31.) I then considered the Set-Up in Face-To-Face Mafia, which is:
-> X.) 3 Power Roles, 9 Townies, 3 Scum {with Godfather}
32.) I decided Set-Up A was entirely unlikely given his set-up for Face-to-Face. FTF has 3 scum (with a GF) against 3 power roles. For Scenario A, Space Monkeys would have 4 scum (with no GF) against only
2
power roles,
and
the significant advantage of having the town thinking ass-backwards because of the flavor and their roles. Scenario B, with 3 power roles against 4 scum seemed
very
consistent: there would be one additional scum than in FTF because there were two additional townspeople, as well as a Cop head-start.

Endgame

33.) So, I was pretty much wrestling the entire time over what I thought made the most sense set-up and mechanics wise (lack of N4 kill, Godfathers, Traitors, game twist, Space Monkeys having role PMs) and what I kept believing to be true (that Glork + VitaminR were scum). In essence, Glork's play continually led me to think he was scum, but what I would have to accept about the set-up if that were true seemed preposterous in terms of balance.

So... why did I vote Klebian? I'm not entirely sure. It was a combination of the above ("where things started going wrong") and the simple fact that I
really
like believing that Glork is the same alignment as me. This is probably one of my bigger weaknesses in mafia - I like to
believe
that people I like are he same alignment as me, even if there are things suggesting otherwise. I decided that I could "test" to see if he were scum... and if he didn't hammer Klebian, I could work from there with more information.

I had already pretty much decided that VitaminR was going to be who I was going to lynch, since I really do think the "common denominator" hypothesis was the way to go. My vote on Klebian wasn't really because I thought he was a Space Monkey, but more because I kept having that glimmer of hope that Glork
just might
be a Gorilla and that I was just viewing his gameplay too critically. (Of course, even if Glork hadn't hammered, that would still make it possible for {Glork, Klebian} to be scum together, but that is neither here nor there).

... and then Glork voted Klebian, and I promptly stormed from the room swearing at myself for being such a fool.

The dream I've had about five times now (which seems to mirror the game pretty accurately is this):
Jelly's Nightmare wrote:Jelly is standing in front of a chalkboard in a College Class with hundreds of students watching, holding a piece of chalk.

The board says:
Chalkboard wrote:1 + 1 = ?
I laugh at how stupidly easy this problem is, and wonder why the Professor could
possibly
give me such an absurd problem. Just as I am about to write "2" as my answer, I double-think. That can't
possibly
be right. It's so obvious. There is nothing else on the board... there are no descriptors for the numbers, so this problem is kept purely on a mathematical plain. There is no answer here but 2.

And by that time, I find that I have already written "3", and when I turn to the Professor, he stares at me and then points towards the door, while the class laughs behind their hands.
So yeah. :cry: Screwing this up seriously feels like saying 1 + 1 = 3. I could go on a rant about the town (overreliance on investigations, overreliance on role flavor, Masterchief not paying attention and being lynched, StD getting himself modkilled, etc. and so on) but I feel more like this loss is on my shoulders.

* Further Note: Especially for this, it seemed rather obvious to me that the Gorillas were almost necessarily going to try to confirm themselves via flavor in role PMs at some point in the game - I decided never to pursue that route in the game since I think it is quite cheap, and I wouldn't want to win a game on the basis that scum did not know how to claim flavor correctly. This problem
should
have been alleviated before the game began by the simple method of giving the Gorillas
different role PM's
so that they could not attempt to compare them. I can understand the need to have given the Space Monkeys the Gorilla Role PM under the circumstances, but that doesn't mean I'm particularly pleased about it.

** Further Note: The "malfunction" on N4 actually is really pushing on my 'bastard-moddery' senses. From what I gather, Stoofer did
not
alert the Space Monkeys before the game began that they would not be able to make a kill on N4 (which is a
very
important piece of information). The fact that this was probably the factor which
won
the game for scum, then, is quite ironic.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
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