Space Monkey Mafia: GAME OVER!


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Post Post #13 (isolation #0) » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:55 am

Post by Glork »

Vote: MBL
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Post Post #24 (isolation #1) » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:00 am

Post by Glork »

HAMMAH HAMMAH!!!
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Post Post #26 (isolation #2) » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:47 am

Post by Glork »

ibaesha wrote:And ... Glork, seriously?
Why not? He's prolly scum.
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Post Post #29 (isolation #3) » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:33 pm

Post by Glork »

OMGIS!!!


Yeah, dude's totally scum.
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Post Post #33 (isolation #4) » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:53 pm

Post by Glork »

MrBuddyLee wrote:Glork, your blatant misrepresentation is noted. I didn't vote you for your vote, I voted you for your actions after the vote. Thus, it's not an OMGUS vote and you're being intentionally evasive, trying to make light in the face of your scumminess.
Um... I fully embrace my "scumminess." I am starting off a game by behaving in a completely ridiculous, counterintuitive, non-productive manner. Welcome to Glork's mafia play. Would you like me to go cite the eight thousand million examples in which I've done so and been accused of being a scumbag for it?

Also, your vote is in fact OMGUSy in nature... it's a reaction to the fact that I asked someone to kill you. "You say you want me dead so I'm going to vote for you" is OMGUS any way you look at it. It doesn't matter if you're talking about the vote itself or the request for a hammer.
MBL wrote:What do you actually think of my vote on you? What do you think of this wagon? I'd like you on the record for tomorrow in the off chance that some mouthbreather lynches me now.
I understand why you're voting for me, and I really can't argue with it.
I think the wagon is pretty hilarious. But it's useful, too. It's not often that we get to start off a game by almost-lynching someone. You've stuck your votes/FoSes in the appropriate places. (Glork 3rd, plus asking for hammer; Bird putting you at Lynch -1; CES for Lynch -2) So far, things check out okay. I'm actually more interested in other peoples' reactions than yours.

Make no mistake about it, though. Had you been at Lynch -1 without me on the wagon, I would have hammered. I've never done something *that* ridiculous before. I think it'd be kinda fun to do it to someone. I think it'd be absolutely fucking hilarious. And I will do it before I retire from Mafia games altogether.
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Post Post #35 (isolation #5) » Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:09 pm

Post by Glork »

:P


Thing is... I want you to know that I'm dead serious about everything I just said. You know me, MBL, and you know that I like to push the envelope sometimes. I want to get away with as much as possible, so long as it doesn't get me killed. And if I get killed over my behavior here, I'll know a little bit more about my limits for future reference. *shrug*
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Post Post #36 (isolation #6) » Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:10 pm

Post by Glork »

Also, I guess I should
Unvote
, given MBL's responses. I'll
Vote: Bogre
for not jumping on the MBL wagon when clearly it was the cool thing to do.
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Post Post #42 (isolation #7) » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:14 am

Post by Glork »

Three points here:

First, you're assuming that I find OMGUS to be a bad thing. I've said before, and I'll say it again: Some types of OMGUS are good things, and the sign of a pro-town player. Ibby, for example, tends to get
very
OMGUSy when she's pro-town and someone accuses her of being scum or clamors for her death. I'm still not entirely sure what my meta-stance on you is, but I do know that you have a tendency to be very concerned -- obsessive, even -- about what people think of you. Newbie 254 was a big reminder of that, and my failure to realize it at that time ended up making me think you were scum in that game. I've since then learned from that and take into consideration your playstyle when dealing with you.

Second, the reason I labeled it as OMGUS was not because you picked *someone* who voted for you, but because you picked me. I boarded the MBL wagon the first time around, I jumped on it this time, and I asked for a hammer. I also called you scum when Ibby asked if I was serious. I was by far the most vocal person who was on your wagon. I realize that voting for anyone on your wagon would technically have been OMGUS, and (as explained above) I didn't intend for the "OMGUS" label to be construed as genuinely scummy. But I did want to note that you were choosing me in particular (hence the OMGIS instead of OMGUS).

Third: Yes, I advocated your hammer and wanted to see reactions at the same time. I wanted to see what other people thought of your wagon. Who would be bold enough to continue to vote for you (I actually think inHim is likely to be pro-town, given his post/vote). Who would get panicky and jump off, going "OMG, I was joking!! I don't want him dead (yet)!"... who would go "Holy crap, this wagon is scummy as hell"? Who would counterwagon somebody (StD, for example, was almost guilty of this, but his vote-chance seems. The reason I think I could've had my cake and eaten it too is because I wanted to different things on completely different levels. My immature, goofy, fun-loving, ridiculous side wanted to see you dead. What can I say... I've got a little bit of Fritzler in me. The scumbusting side of me wanted to see what people did in an unexpected situation.





One more thing.... please, MBL, explain to me how you can "smell a suckup" out of Klebian and think that I'm scum at the same time.
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Post Post #44 (isolation #8) » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:21 am

Post by Glork »

Twomz wrote:The crash removed this thread from my watched list XD. But i'm aware of it now. Why are we trying to kill MBL w/o giving him the chance to do anything?
Because it's funnier that way.
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Post Post #74 (isolation #9) » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:53 am

Post by Glork »

Sarcastro's good people. He lives on Monkey Island ffs. d00d's obviously not a scumbag.
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Post Post #83 (isolation #10) » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:49 pm

Post by Glork »

Nightson wrote:
unvote, vote: Phoebus
:badposting:

DEAR EVERYBODY PLZ KILL THIS GUY KTHXBAI
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Post Post #85 (isolation #11) » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:10 pm

Post by Glork »

FoS: Twomz


That post does not contain a vote for Nightson. This is a serious issue. Are you and Nightson scumbuddies?
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Post Post #90 (isolation #12) » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:36 am

Post by Glork »

Shit, this is going to sound really, really, *REALLY* retarded.

I got Nightson and Bogre mixed up.





This is why I do not post at 2:00 AM while taking a break from writing philosophy papers. :oops:
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Post Post #91 (isolation #13) » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:37 am

Post by Glork »

EBWODP: This is why I
should
not post at 2:00 AM while taking a break from writing philosophy papers. Obviously I did.
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Post Post #95 (isolation #14) » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:00 am

Post by Glork »

Yes, Twomz. I was thinking that I had voted Nightson before, and not Bogre. I didn't think I was being inconsistent because I hadn't realized I was voting for a different person.
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Post Post #98 (isolation #15) » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:23 am

Post by Glork »

*grump*

I misremembered who I had been voting for. Nothing more, nothing less. I made a mistake because it was late at night and my brain was frazzled.
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Post Post #100 (isolation #16) » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:35 am

Post by Glork »

I don't believe this.

I have defended myself against the exact same
<<unacceptable language>>
argument in three or four games recently.

I begin games by behaving "off-the-wall" just as often as I begin games with cutthroat logic. If you'd like me to cite examples, just ask. I'm perfectly willing to do so.
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Post Post #102 (isolation #17) » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:50 am

Post by Glork »

I'm not trying to use it as proof that I'm pro-town. I'm saying that you can't conclude I'm scum because of it. StD's reason for voting me is that he thinks I'm being too off-the-wall. I am defending myself by saying "it is not an indicator either way. If you're going to vote for me, do it for a legitimate reason."



And seriously, if you want to know the duress I've been under lately, ask Amelia how my life has been lately. Go ahead. You can use AIM. Or ask AniX what I was up to last night. I'm not making this shit up. I'm just burned out and I made a simple mistake.
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Post Post #113 (isolation #18) » Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:36 am

Post by Glork »

Save The Dragons wrote:Please do so. Your play is looking a lot different from other games I am in with you.
Sesame Street Mafia -- focused, completely unfounded, relentless attack on one player
Snakes on a Plane Mafia -- general ridiculousness for the entire day that I lived in that game. Probably the most absurd I've ever behaved in a D1. Wagon-pushing, lynch-mongering, shameless unfounded accusations.
Choose Someone Else's Role Mafia -- More general ridiclousness. Shameless trolling and spamming. Comment made on how I plan on hopping/starting as many wagons as I possibly can.
Newbie 254, to a lesser extent. Deliberate unorthodox, confusing behavior -- intended to spur reactions from other players
Mafia 54 -- focused, vehement attack on a single player, with shaky basis and shameless wagon-mongering



There. Happy?
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Post Post #115 (isolation #19) » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:01 pm

Post by Glork »

This quickly seems to becoming one of those "I can't say anything right" situations.
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Post Post #118 (isolation #20) » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:01 pm

Post by Glork »

Dear MBL,

Please stop failing.

XOXO,
Glork
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Post Post #123 (isolation #21) » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:12 pm

Post by Glork »

I was just pushing a wagon for basically on reason at all. I did not think I was being inconsistent. I don't particularly care for whom I vote right now. My "plan" (if you can even call it that) was to just push whatever wagons were most convenient or appropriate and see how people reacted. (This can be partially reflected in my comment towards MBL, that I was more interested in
other people's
reactions than his own.) Obviously, I botched that completely. I made a couple of comments that were inconsistent with my vote at the time, and a few people decided to jump on it. I found myself having to explain my mistake and defend my posting habits to this point, and that's pretty much where we stand now.


My vote remains as is because I have not yet found a suitable place for it. I don't have any real basis for thinking Nightson is scum. I don't have any significant qualms with the votes against me, since I completely understand where they are coming from. I think they're misguided, and I suspect that at least one of the people pushing against me are scum... but I can't really argue with why they are voting me.
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Post Post #127 (isolation #22) » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:28 pm

Post by Glork »

MrBuddyLee wrote:
Nightson wrote:In my book the most important thing Day 1 is discussion and whether it comes about through people being serious or people reacting to non-serious content it's all discussion.
This looks a lot like Glork's "why is everyone attacking me for things that could be scummy it's my schtick" schtick. If it's just discussion, why get defensive about it?
That's a pretty moronic notion. If a player is attacked, they have every right to defend themselves, whether being attacked and/or voted by one player, or being attacked/voted by multiple players.

I never understood this "getting defensive is scummy" bit. I see people accuse me of being scum on some actual basis. I defend myself against those accusations. That's sorta how this game is played. I do not expect people to attack me for behaving in a ridiculous manner. But if they do, I will continue to defend myself. I may complain about it (as I did earlier)... but I will still explain why my actions are not inconsistent with me being pro-town. I don't understand why you're telling Nightson that he should not be defending himself.
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Post Post #151 (isolation #23) » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:50 am

Post by Glork »

Unvote, Vote: Sarcastro


Pretty sure he's a dirty scumbag.
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Post Post #153 (isolation #24) » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:48 am

Post by Glork »

What's your point, StD?
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Post Post #162 (isolation #25) » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:47 am

Post by Glork »

Yeah, I'm here. Can we stop being dumb and start lynching the bad guys?
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Post Post #165 (isolation #26) » Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:26 am

Post by Glork »

bird1111 wrote:I'm here, and am still wondering why there are votes on Glork for normal early day 1 behavior.


I believe Fritz already answered that:
Fritzler wrote:
bird1111 wrote:Not seeing why people are finding Nightson/Glork suspicious for typical early day 1 behavior
cuz theyre idiots and don't realize glork has mroe than one typical day 1 behavior

Your continued defense of me is noted, Bird. Are you trying to make all happy-happy with Glorky to get on his good side?
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Post Post #168 (isolation #27) » Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:10 am

Post by Glork »

You mean "What's your point, StD?"

I want you to elaborate on why you're interpreting inHim's words as such.
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Post Post #169 (isolation #28) » Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:18 am

Post by Glork »

Also yes, StD, I'm disassociating myself with Bird. I don't think he's scum right now, but if he
does
turn out to be a scumbag, I already know where the conversation is going to lead. I've picked up a rampantly paranoid attitude towards this game. Being widely and intently attacked for perfectly normal (for me, anyway) behavior tends to do that.




"OMG GLROK IS BEING RIDICULOUS!! SCUMBUAGGZORZ!"

"OMG BIRD DEFENDED LGORK! OBV THEY ARE SCUMBUDDEEZ!"
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Post Post #187 (isolation #29) » Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:06 am

Post by Glork »

PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:what happened to that sweet MBL wagon?
People decided that Bird was a better wagon. *shrug*
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Post Post #188 (isolation #30) » Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:21 am

Post by Glork »

Did a quick re-read, just a couple of things to note.

I've decided that Ibby's reasons for voting me seem contrived/forced. Call it a personal tell on Ibbsies. She's probably a dirty gorilla-face.
Unvote, Vote: Ibby


Sarcastro's last post still has me thinking he might be scum. Bird + Klebian both seem like quite convenient "suspicions."
FoS: Sarcastro

Save The Dragons wrote:Mmm I dunno if they're scum together. I'm just pretty sure that

inhim + bird > 0 scum.
Strong FoS: StD

I don't like this post. It's not really "False Dilemma," but it feels almost that way. I still don't think that Bird is scum. inHim doesn't strike me as going either way right now.
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Post Post #189 (isolation #31) » Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:24 am

Post by Glork »

Bah, sorry for the triple-post. :oops:


...but dearest God of Mods, it would appear as though your most recent vote count has MrBuddyLee voting for both me and inHimshallibe. Is this a mistake or not?
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Post Post #191 (isolation #32) » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:09 am

Post by Glork »

I know that you were saying "I think at least one of Bird/inHim are scum." I'm saying that I strongly disagree on one point, and that I'm not by any means sold on the other. And I'm saying that your post makes me vaguely think "False Dilemma." It's not a false dilemma in the strictest sense (at least one of them is scum, and X town implies Y scum)... but I just don't like the two lynches that you are pushing.
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Post Post #195 (isolation #33) » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:31 am

Post by Glork »

I really can't place my finger on what it is exactly. Language + Targets + Timing.
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Post Post #201 (isolation #34) » Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:11 am

Post by Glork »

I've already explained my stance... a little bit of both.


Good question, though. I'd also like to know why other people wagoned MBL.
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Post Post #205 (isolation #35) » Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:51 am

Post by Glork »

Significantly likely?

The only person I could have *really* actually imagined hammering you before somebody unvoted would have been Fritzler. But Fritz was already on your wagon, so that wasn't going to happen. Pooky, CES, Glork, Fritz -- the four people I consider to be the most likely to do something ridiculous just for kicks -- were all on the wagon at that point. There was little chance that you were *actually* going to die. Although I would have been quite amused had it happened.
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Post Post #207 (isolation #36) » Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:02 pm

Post by Glork »

Uh... your point? I didn't say that I plan on doing it someday until well after the fact. You've not shown that anything is "significantly likely." All you've shown is that I would have hammered you dead... which I already stated explicitly.
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Post Post #208 (isolation #37) » Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:23 pm

Post by Glork »

Actually, now that I look back at things, there's a serious misrepresentation that I can't let go unnoted.

Let's go back and look at what I said:
Glork wrote:Make no mistake about it, though. Had you been at Lynch -1 without me on the wagon, I would have hammered. I've never done something *that* ridiculous before. I think it'd be kinda fun to do it to someone. I think it'd be absolutely f***ing hilarious. And I will do it before I retire from Mafia games altogether.
What does this post say?
I (Glork) would have hammered you.
I (Glork) think that it would be fun/hilarious.


What did you say?
MrBuddyLee wrote:Yeah, you even said yourself there's a "cool factor" involved and it'd be a point of pride to someday hammer someone before page 3. Significantly likely, but thanks to a few timely unvotes temptation was removed and it didn't happen.
You take my opinion (I would hammer, think it's cool, blahblah) and try to present it as the standard or normal opinion/attitude. Because *I*, someone
already on your wagon
said I would have hammered, you say that it is "significantly likely" that
somebody else
would have hammered.

As I've said before: The people I consider most likely to hammer were all already on your wagon. If you can make a case that somebody
not already on your wagon
would have hammered you, then you can say it was "significantly likely" that you would have been hammered.
"Glork would hammer, since he thinks it's cool" does not mean "Somebody else would have hammered because they thought it was cool."


Strong FoS: MBL

Do you have a real reson for voting me? Or do you just plan on misrepresenting me and making up reasons to "suspect" me, hoping it'll stick somehow?
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Post Post #210 (isolation #38) » Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:47 pm

Post by Glork »

No, I don't think I'd gain a hell of a lot of info from the quicklynch (unless you turned out scum, I think).

But I think we'd find a ton of damned good information in the aftermath. If I don't get vigged or nightkilled that night, the D2 discussion would be... quite interesting. I know full well that if I really do something absurd, I'll have to defend and explain myself. I'm not stupid or naive, MBL, despite what you seem to think. I may be bold, irrational, even reckless at times.... but I am not a complete ignoramus. I realize that my actions have consequences, and I understand that there would be substantial pressure on me.

Lynching a townie D1 is obivously not going to ruin a game. Lynching D1 and getting little info puts us at a significant disadvantage, but I do think that the information gained from D2's discussion would be pretty immense and extremely heplful (not to mention the fact that the wagon itself on D1 likely *does* provide us with some clues/info down the road).
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Post Post #212 (isolation #39) » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:43 am

Post by Glork »

inHim... you're bold, but you're not completely irrational. (Consider that a compliment. ;)) I wouldn't have expected to see you hammer, but apparently feel the same way as me.
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Post Post #221 (isolation #40) » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:33 am

Post by Glork »

PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:i'm glad i'm first on Glork's list.
Fritzler wrote:
PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:i'm glad i'm first on Glork's list.
im not first on any lists

except most awesomenessest
I've long been told that you should lead with strength and end on a strong note. You two are crazy, crazy mofos.




I wanna be just like you guys when I grow up ^_^
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Post Post #224 (isolation #41) » Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:07 am

Post by Glork »

dahen wrote:Ok, I failed to change the subject with my vote, so
unvote
. I think we've gotten the information a lynch of MBL would give us (apart from his actual alignment and what follows). If we feel his alignment is a key, then we should lynch him. Otherwise, it's time looking somewhere else. I suggest the latter.
Hi, why are you protecting your scumbuddy MBL?
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Post Post #229 (isolation #42) » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:42 am

Post by Glork »

MrBuddyLee wrote:
Glork wrote:Hi, why are you protecting your scumbuddy MBL?
That's yesterday's tired schtick. We demand new material.
Nah, I'd be quite content to vote either you or Ibby off the island right now. Dahen's comment makes me wonder about him, too.
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Post Post #233 (isolation #43) » Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:39 am

Post by Glork »

....I still see this wagon as being scum-driven. I don't think Bird is scum. I would much rather MBL or Ibby die. In fact, I don't like inHim's vote. I get the "OMGX DEADLINE LETS LYNCH SOMEONE FAST!" vibe from his vote.

Nevertheless, I suppose Bird should claim or something.
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Post Post #237 (isolation #44) » Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:11 am

Post by Glork »

inHimshallibe wrote:I think you and I both know how hard it would be for us to get another candidate (MBL, gawdurnit!) strung up with less than a week to go,
especially
with the holiday weekend coming up.
I think it's worth a shot.

Unvote, Vote: MBL
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Post Post #243 (isolation #45) » Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:01 pm

Post by Glork »

Fritzler wrote:i love glork's quick change of heart
Quick
change of heart? I said before the crash that I'd be happy lynching either MBL or Ibby today. It just so happens that there's potential for an MBL lynch, and no such potential for an Ibby lynch.
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Post Post #247 (isolation #46) » Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:59 am

Post by Glork »

MrBuddyLee wrote:Here.

This should be simple. The odds that no scum have piled/are piling on me is ridiculously slim. Pick the scummiest one who's piled on and lynch them. Right now, that looks like inHim, but I need to smell-test the original wagon again.
Y'know what? You're probably right. You're the bus of the day if you're scum, and you're the easy lynch if you're town. There are likely scum on your wagon, but I still think that you are scum.
Also, I realize that you're interested in your own survival, but to advocate that we pick someone on your wagon and wagon them to death is completely unreasonable. Finding the scum-who-may-be-on-your-wagon becomes much, much easier if we know your alignment. Looking for tells from a bus is significantly different than looking for tells from a mislynch. Simply put, at this point, we need the info from your death. If you don't get lynched today, I can only hope that you'll be vigged overnight. I want you dead. And I want you dead as quickly as possible.
MBL wrote:Glork wants to lynch one of the two people voting for him right now. How convenient. Glork, you're uncomfortable with inhim's behavior. How comfortable are you with your vote on me knowing he cheerily piled on top of it?
I'm pretty used to inHim being fairly (if not completely) irrational D1. Though I know why he wants you dead, and I agree that the info of your lynch (even if you happen to be pro-town) should prove invaluable. InHim has stuck pretty fast to your lynch, and his play is not inconsistent with what I expect from him. It's true that I'm not particularly comfortable with inHim's play, but my meta on him is a little wonky,
especially
after our most recent game together.
MBL wrote:
Glork wrote:I still see this wagon as being scum-driven. I don't think Bird is scum.
OK then, Glork, would you take a stab at sorting out good from bad apples that plopped onto the birdwagon? Also, why didn't you see my wagon as scum-driven? What's the fundamental difference between it and the birdwagon that allows you to reach that conclusion?
Your initial wagon had no basis on it whatsoever. The Birdwagon was built and pushed on a really, really bad basis. That's a *very* significant fundamental difference between Bird's wagon and your wagon. The second coming of your wagon is interesting. I can't say that I expected it to grow this quickly, but for the time being I'm sticking with my guns. I don't like what I've seen from you. At all.
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Post Post #249 (isolation #47) » Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:53 pm

Post by Glork »

I don't know. I'm actually looking to draw connections between you and other players for the afore-mentoined reason that I think you're scum. If you turn up pro-town, assuming that I don't find
myself
on the chopping block, I'll address that at the time.
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Post Post #253 (isolation #48) » Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:11 am

Post by Glork »

MrBuddyLee wrote:So these two want to lynch me for information, but they freely admit they have no associations in mind that will result in information gained by my death. Brilliant.
Exactly.


Are you implying that we should all have predispositions to follow certain paths on Day One that we plan on seeing through regardless of how ensuing events unfold?



'Cause if thats the case, I'd suggest that you revise your play strategy.
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Post Post #258 (isolation #49) » Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:59 pm

Post by Glork »

Obv I think Dahen might be a scumbuddy of yours:
Glork wrote:
dahen wrote:Ok, I failed to change the subject with my vote, so
unvote
. I think we've gotten the information a lynch of MBL would give us (apart from his actual alignment and what follows). If we feel his alignment is a key, then we should lynch him. Otherwise, it's time looking somewhere else. I suggest the latter.
Hi, why are you protecting your scumbuddy MBL?
My interpretation of Dahen's post: "Okay, we've all wagoned MBL, so can we please focus somewhere else?"

I would also label Nightson as possible scum either way. He jumped on your wagon both times, only with a "Vote: MBL." And he jumped onto the Bird wagon with the following pithy reasoning:
Nightson wrote:
bird1111 wrote:I'm here, and am still wondering why there are votes on Glork for normal early day 1 behavior.
You're getting the most votes and this is all you have to say? Newsflash, Glork only has half the votes you do.
vote: bird
And now he's got slightly less then half.
This is exactly what I mean when I said it seemed to me that some bullshit excuse would be found to wagon Bird.

I will also note that though Nightson said he was keeping his vote on Bird until Bird acknowledged the fact that he was the leading vote-getter, he jumped back onto MBL as soon as the momentum started up against him.

In fact, I'd like to hear from Nightson about his behavior.
FoS: Nightson
. Please explain yourself.



If MBL turns up town, I'd really have to see how other people respond tomorrow. I'd be looking for reactions and follow-up attacks from everyone who voted/wagoned you. I have a feeling that I know where scumwagoners would start pointing fingers, but I'm not going to spoil that just yet.
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Post Post #269 (isolation #50) » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:09 am

Post by Glork »

I'll say it again: Bird should be claiming right about now.
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Post Post #278 (isolation #51) » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:32 am

Post by Glork »

Now I have to get PJ lynched? Oh poo.



He can wait until tomorrow. In the meantime, he should vote for MBL.
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Post Post #285 (isolation #52) » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:35 am

Post by Glork »

Believe it or not, PJ, I can actually explain both of the issues you semem to have with me being "stupid." :P
petroleumjelly wrote:
Glork, post 205 wrote:The only person I could have *really* actually imagined hammering you before somebody unvoted would have been Fritzler.
But Fritz was already on your wagon, so that wasn't going to happen. Pooky, CES, Glork, Fritz -- the four people I consider to be the most likely to do something ridiculous just for kicks -- were all on the wagon at that point.
There was little chance that you were *actually* going to die. Although I would have been quite amused had it happened.
As it happens, this statement is actually false. The people on MBL’s wagon were (in order): Twito, Ibaesha, Glork, Fritzler, Klebian, Nightson, Cogito Ergo Sum, Bird1111, [Ibby unvotes], InHimShallIBe. If I recall correctly, Pooky was on the original wagon before posts were deleted, but he was not on the ‘actual’ game wagon, so he could have easily hammered. I account this mistake more to sloppiness than to scumminess, however.
In Post 186, Pooky asked where that "sweet MBL wagon" was. I erroneously assumed that Pooky had been on the wagon and, as you said, Pooky was on the original wagon. I got a bit mixed up. I've already explained why that was the case.
PJ wrote:
Glork, Post 153 wrote:What's your point, StD?
Glork not noticing that StD was responding to InHim’s post 147 is confirming my thoughts that Glork has just been extremely sloppy this game.
Actually, in this case I simply wanted StD to post his thoughts to completion. StD was voting for Bird while attacking inHim for placing his vote before making his case via "Translating" inHim's post. I wanted StD to give more indication as to whether he's accusing inHim of being scum based on that behavior, or if he's just throwing his tendrils all over the place. I never really got an elaboration, which was kinda disappointing.

PJ wrote:And wow, I can’t believe nobody hit on this post:
Nightson, Post 176 wrote:
bird1111 wrote:I'm here, and am still wondering why there are votes on Glork for normal early day 1 behavior.
You're getting the most votes and this is all you have to say? Newsflash, Glork only has half the votes you do.
vote: bird
And now he's got slightly less then half.

Inhim I don't find suspicious.

Still kinda suspicious of StD, but not enough for a vote right now.
Big FoS: Nightson
.

Is nobody reading the thread before they post? At the time Bird1111 made the quoted post, he had
one vote
, and that was from Twito. It was as a
result
of that post that he garnered votes. This post is screaming to me that Nightson was trying to find a reason to vote for Bird1111, and in doing so, he managed to quote Bird completely out of context so his vote would look justified, while also throwing suspicion on Bird.
I did (hit on Nightson's post). See my Post 258. I'm pretty much waiting on some kind of response from Nightson, though I really wouldn't mind seeing him wagoned to death in the next 48 hours.
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Post Post #287 (isolation #53) » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:24 am

Post by Glork »

If it really comes to it, I'll hammer Bird on deadline day. Info >>> Not Info.

I still think MBL, Nightson, maybe even Cardinal Ibelly is a better play, though.
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Post Post #293 (isolation #54) » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:09 pm

Post by Glork »

klebian wrote:Yay for glork's not paying attention again.
Question: Did you read my response to PJ, or are you just going along with the notion that I didn't pay attention?

If you
did
read my response, do you still think I was being dumb? What led you to that conclusion? If you don't think I was still being dumb, why did you post this response?
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Post Post #296 (isolation #55) » Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:40 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:Oh, and <3 MBL.
Scumbuddies.
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Post Post #318 (isolation #56) » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:23 am

Post by Glork »

Glork wrote:
klebian wrote:Yay for glork's not paying attention again.
Question: Did you read my response to PJ, or are you just going along with the notion that I didn't pay attention?

If you
did
read my response, do you still think I was being dumb? What led you to that conclusion? If you don't think I was still being dumb, why did you post this response?
Glork wrote:
petroleumjelly wrote:Oh, and <3 MBL.
Scumbuddies.


Which one do we want to kill today? 'Cause, y'know, I'm game either way.
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Post Post #327 (isolation #57) » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:09 am

Post by Glork »

What gets me about Ibby isn't even the move from MBL to Bird; it's the way in which she attacked me afterwards. I've had a scumtell on Ibby for a while that when she's scum, she gets very tunnel-visioned on one or two people, to the point where she looks for excuses to continue voting/attacking them. I definitely got that vibe from her when she attacked me early in D1. Yesterday, PJ voiced suspicions against four people: Bird, Nightson, Klebian, and inHim. He voted Klebian and Nightson, gave a half-hearted explanation why he chose them over either of the other two, and pretty much ignored the rest of the situation.

Zindie -- Part of me doubts that the scum didn't know that MBL was one of them. If they did (i.e., if MBL had a traditional Traitor role), targeting him normally recruits him into the Mafia; it doesn't kill him. My guess is that a (very awesome and intelligent) Vigilante decided to nail him overnight. Personally, I feel that it was pretty necessary to get the alignment on either MBL or me. We got into a pretty extended debate, and both MBL and I were right in the middle of things. Truth be told, I expected to be dead in the morning based on the fact that Bird came up scum. And if MBL had died as town, I probably would be the one with a noose practically around my neck. But I don't think that the mafia killed him.
The lack of a kill on a pro-town player is pretty difficult to explain at this point. Nurse, Replacement/Backup, Roleblocker... there's really no way to tell. Let's just chalk it up to good fortune and focus on what we can figure out right now.




By the way, I call hammer on PJ. But I suppose we should let him defend himself first, or something. <.<
Also, this is one of the wagoniest towns that I have ever seen. It reminds me vaguely of Mafia 49 over in NY.
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Post Post #334 (isolation #58) » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:15 pm

Post by Glork »

Yeah, we pretty much arbitrarily decided MBL was scum last time around. The wagon this time around came a heck of a lot quicker, but it wasn't really founded last time.


I've sortof read PJ's response, and there are a couple of things I want to which I'd like to respond, but it'll have to wait until later in the week.
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Post Post #339 (isolation #59) » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:13 pm

Post by Glork »

inHimshallibe wrote:Saying and doing are different things. I don't care how much PJ said he would have voted for bird, the fact remains that he didn't.

In fact, looking at your quote, you say, "I may indeed"... ha, that's not easy to wriggle out of... :|
That's a little dumb. I also said that I would hammer if necessary come near-deadline, and I think Zindaras made a similar comment when he moved to Bird. Not everyone can live up to their "I'll hammer if I need to." Just because someone *else* got there first is not a legitimate reason to be pressuring PJ.
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Post Post #347 (isolation #60) » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:45 pm

Post by Glork »

He's still three from lynch. I don't think we need to concern ourselves with a claim just yet.


I finally finished my philosophy term paper (only 11 hours before it's due >.<)... so I'll get around to actually responding to PJ in full tomorrow. I also need to re-read the past day or two to see what I think of the most recent happenings.
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Post Post #361 (isolation #61) » Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:15 pm

Post by Glork »

Well I know I wonder... but I doubt that the town is going to reach a general consensus today. And even if we did, I don't see it helping us find scum right now. A couple more days down the road, when there are more nights and more bodies, we can try to figure out why a Gorilla died. But right now? I don't see us getting much use out of the speculation. We likely won't arrive at a useful conclusion, and we may just end up being misled, whether intentionally or not.
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Post Post #373 (isolation #62) » Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:33 pm

Post by Glork »

PJ wrote:Ibby only had 12 posts, and in those twelve posts, she managed to finger or vote for:
1.) MrBuddyLee
2.) Bird1111
3.) klebian
4.) Glork
5.) Nightson
Of course, if you look at
when
those votes occurred, you'll see that the first three of them came in the first 50 posts of the game. Ibby will hunt around looking for a place to vote until she thinks she can make it stick. And when she finds such a place, she pretty much looks for reasons to continue justifying her vote. Consider her play in Road to Perdition Mafia (Her posts can be found here) where she settled on TB fairly early and then found a miryad of small reasons to continue pressuring TB. I felt she did the same thing to me.

Take, for example, the following post pieces by Ibby:
Ibby, Post 76, RtP Mafia wrote:We're currently talking about how you are scummy for attempting to quash discussion, became overly defensive when it was pointed out, and that you appear to possibly have knowledge about people's alignments. So yes, if you wanted to turn the discussion into suspicion of yourself, you've done a good job. Also, your statement here is a twisting of the truth since I never said or implicated anything of the sort. I think that's pretty scummy.
Ibby, Post 101, Space Monkey Mafia wrote:I totally cut you a break for the initial off the wall behavior because I know that. The whole Nightson/Bogre voting error thing is not something I'm going to ignore though. Also, your off the wall behavior at the start of games is likely not indicative of your alignment, so attempting to use it as some sort of proof that you're pro-town fails.
Rough translation: "I'm justifying my vote by re-stating why I think you're scummy. Also, I'm going to tack on another reason to 'believe' that you're being scummy or not-pro-town."

PJ wrote:That is hardly what I call “tunnel vision”. Try comparing Ibby’s posts to InHim’s posts. Seriously. Click the “view all posts” function and tell me what you see. Ibby was by no means focusing on one person. Simply because she remained suspicious of one person, that does not mean she was focusing on one person.
I used "tunnel vision" as a fairly loose term. For Ibby, repeatedly going "I like my vote" while making a few side-comments (note: each of which, in some way, related to me) is pretty much being tunnel-visioned. She's going to stay where she is until the lynch she's pushing either goes through or she finds a more suitable candidate.
PJ wrote:Yesterday, I only had about one or two real-life days to do anything. I was not “ignoring the situation”; I was very much aware of the situation. I was willing to hammer Bird1111 if it looked like the alternative was No-Lynch. There was pretty much no way I could have ever successfully got a competing wagon out of Nightson had I tried, and to think I would seriously try to “stop” the Bird1111 by employing such a weak strategy is bogus. I believe I have covered my explanation of this (so far as it is ‘necessary’) throughout this post.
I disagree with this completely. Both inHim and I decided we wanted to try to push MBL-lynches. We actually got a little bit of momentum before people went (back) to Bird. I would definitely say that, at the very least, I was trying to get MBL lynched
instead
of Bird. I guessed that you were doing roughly the same thing. Stir up some attention somewhere else and see if you can get people going elsewhere with this thing.
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Post Post #374 (isolation #63) » Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:35 pm

Post by Glork »

Oh, and
Vote: PJ

I meant to do that at the end of the last post.
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Post Post #376 (isolation #64) » Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:14 pm

Post by Glork »

PJ wrote:3.) You tried to shake Ibby off by claiming that you are often "off-the-wall" at the beginning of games. Ibby responded (and truthfully) that she was willing to overlook it at first, but that you pushed the limits of what slack she was willing to give.
This is actually a bit of a misrepresentation, and something I probably should've mentioned in my last post. When I said that I am typically off-the-wall early in games, I was responding to StD. He stated that as his
reason
for voting for me. (He hadn't seen me play like that as town.) I made my response basically saying "That's not a valid meta because here, here, here, and here are games in which I've behaved in a completely ridiculous manner." Ibby turned that into an "I'm pro-town" statement, which I do believe I called her on.

Sure, it's possible that Ibby moved away from MBL out of genuine care and concern, settled on me for genuine reasons,
PJ wrote:So far as I can tell, the fact that Ibby did not back off immediately seems to be the reason Glork is voting for me now.
My reasons are not "Ibby did not back off from me," contrary to what you seem to be stating. My reasons are meta/hunch towards Ibby based on the
manner
in which she went after (or more importantly, stayed on) me, the bit of interaction you had with MBL, and your behavior towards Bird.
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Post Post #390 (isolation #65) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:16 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:
Glork wrote:My reasons are not "Ibby did not back off from me," contrary to what you seem to be stating.
Please explain this to me:
Glork wrote:My reasons are meta/hunch towards Ibby based on the manner in which she went after
(or more importantly, stayed on) me
, the bit of interaction you had with MBL, and your behavior towards Bird.
"Ibby did not back off from Glork", so far as I'm concerned, is equivalent to "Ibby stayed on Glork". If you meant something else, you are being too vague for me, and you will have to go into more detail.
I already know you're not going to like this, but... I can't really. It's one of those intangible hunch/gut things. It's just in the language (manner) Ibby used. Her posts felt forced/contrived.

PJ wrote:1.) My interactions with MBL were (admittedly) because I thought he was pro-town, and I did not like the voters on his early wagon in particular. I'm not going to act like I thought otherwise.
Whether this is true or not obviously remains to be seen. What I do know is that there were some very clear interactions between the two of you. I'm not asking you to pretend you didn't "think" he was pro-town. I'm just saying that I neither can nor will take on faith your claimed reasoning.
PJ wrote:2.) Could you go into more detail with my "behavior towards Bird", then? I have already explained why I did not vote Bird immediately, and I don't particularly enjoy repeating myself. 3/4 of my top suspects were voting for the fourth suspect: that, to me, made his wagon smell scum-driven. I
did
want to gauge reactions to see what people thought of Nightson, but he was not really a viable alternative that late on Day One. I pretty much came into the game where the lynch had already been decided, and if it was necessary, I was willing to vote him if the alternative was No-Lynch since I also had found Bird1111 moderately scummy (for his placement of his
vote on MBL
, as it happens). There is not much more I can say on that subject.
You actually make a pretty fair point about the whole "3/4 of my top suspects were voting for Bird" thing. I'm currently trying to mull over whether ScumPJ would actually think he could divert a Birdwagon. I certainly don't see you waltzing into the game and busing him outright if you're his scumbuddy, but I would've expected you to dance around and point some fingers before putting Bird to the guillotine. To say that one would've voted Bird if necessary is, IMO, fairly neutral. Again, I'd expect any halfway decent player to say something like that, regardless of alignment, since the info from a lynch is just that much more important, whether you particularly like the lynch or not. (Note: I'm not taking inHim's argument about your alleged failure to actually hammer... I'm just saying that going "Well I'll lynch Bird if necessary" implies "I don't really want to, but I'll take the info if that's the best we can do.")



In other news.... could someone review the case against inHim? Is it the whole "I didn't think Bird was scum" bit? Because if that really is the case, I'd pretty much have to call foul on that one. Still, I'm quite tempted to hammer just to make up for Day One.
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Post Post #391 (isolation #66) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:29 am

Post by Glork »

Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Um, I helped nail a scum, so I don't need to explain my motives? Maybe?

Also, you are clearly trying to draw attention away from inHim. I mean, where is this line of questioning coming from and how is it relevant?
Bzzzt, try again. I know that reckless bandwagoning is kinda your MO, but I do think you owe us a real explanation.

Unvote, Vote: CES
FOS/IGMEOY: PJ.
I will be returning to you sooner or later. Watch yourself, buddy.
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Post Post #410 (isolation #67) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:55 pm

Post by Glork »

Are you saying you believe inHim's claim, Thok?


Not gonna lie, I have no idea how to respond to PJ. I've interpreted Ibby's and PJ's play the way I did, and I'd still give strong odds that PJ is scum. I do, however, feel quite backwards right now. I'd really like to hammer inHim, as I do think he's scum. But I also know that if he dies as scum, I've pretty much sealed my fate.

One thing, PJ. I've never heard of a "Janitor" role before. Could you point me to a post/game/wiki entry that further describes the role? The way I'm reading it right now, having a Janitor is potentially broken, unless it's a one-use ability. Because otherwise, if I were scum and I had that role, I'd pretty much be going "Janitor X, Kill X" every night to get everybody thinking that Gorillas are town and that Space Monkeys are actually scum.
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Post Post #413 (isolation #68) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:07 pm

Post by Glork »

I am so very tempted to hammer right now.


But I want to hear PJ's response first.
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Post Post #416 (isolation #69) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:16 pm

Post by Glork »

inHim, could you explain why you took no action on Night 1?
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Post Post #417 (isolation #70) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:24 pm

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:No, I cannot link you to a finished game with a "Janitor" role. I have seen it twice on a forum I used to play on, but the purpose of that site is not to play mafia games, so after a few months of not being posted in when finished, the games disappear entirely. I don't entirely remember whether or not it was one-shot or multiple-shot, although I would certainly hope it was one-shot. The possibility just occured to me while I was writing up the post that we could potentially be dealing with a similar role, so I thought it was worth mentioning.
However, the second half of your comment there disturbs me greatly, seeing as:
PJ wrote:
Mr Stoofer wrote:You must defeat the brutal Gorillas. The SS Simian must not fall into their hands. The safety of the Galaxy depends on you!
There is simply no way the town would think that "Gorillas are town" and "Monkeys are scum". I'm pretty sure people know their own roles. Monkeys know they are town, and no amount of dead gorillas would get me to think otherwise. If there were constant gorilla deaths, I would be worrying about a set-up with a
lot
of scum, or as I mentioned, the possibility of a janitor-type role.
Yeah, see, I still don't see a multi-use janitor role working out. Maybe I'm making a moot point anyway, since Speedy was killed as a Space Monkey Doctor, as opposed to a Gorilla (Doctor?) on Night One. Or maybe the Janitor got roleblocked. Or maybe somebody else (SK?) killed Speedy and the Gorilla kill got nullified somehow.

Oh, that reminds me. I will note, PJ, that your "multiple scum groups" theory, so far, isn't supported by the number of nightkills. One Space Monkey N1. One Gorilla N2. And a/the Doctor is already gone. Granted, there may be another one (or a backup) out there somewhere, but I'd rather put my money on fewer killing roles than something as absurd as the protection accuracy of Norse Myth Mafia.
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Post Post #419 (isolation #71) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:32 pm

Post by Glork »

Possible, though not terribly likely at this point.
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Post Post #425 (isolation #72) » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:47 pm

Post by Glork »

Oooh, the plot thickens!
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Post Post #444 (isolation #73) » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:41 am

Post by Glork »

How did he do so? He's dirty scum.

Unvote, Vote: Klebian

I haven't forgotten about you, Klebian. You're still a heinous scumbaggo.
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Post Post #452 (isolation #74) » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:07 am

Post by Glork »

Thok's got me feeling all wonky. I want him to elaborate on why he's voting for anybody who speculates about the setup. On the other hand, I can see why he would be suspicious of the theories presented so far. More on that later in this post.

Haven't really looked at MC. I will say that I have this tendency to find him scummy, so I'll have to take careful consideration when I look over his posts. I'll get back to you on that one.

You haven't really given me any problems. I don't see any reason to suspect you right now. Though I don't really agree with your theory (see the next paragraph), I do like that you haven't tried to cram the theory to fit your supsicions or vice versa. It's really easy for scum to do so; they develop theories to push the lynches they already want to see, or they develop a theory and then refuse to deviate from it, deriving suspicions from it. Heck, I did that myself in Committee Mafia, but it drew a lot of unwanted attention.

Regarding your theory, Zindie: I still do not see MBL being from the same scumgroup, esepcially if inHim is part of that scumgroup. Consider this: inHimScum attacked MBL basically all of D1. If he (or his mafia) decides to kill MBL, it would likely be because they think MBL is some kind of threat to them. Unless inHim was already going "MBL is probably an SK or part of a different scumgroup," it wouldn't make sense to kill someone you think might turn up pro-town. I'm not going to go out of my way to try to get someone lynched and then just nightkill them; it doesn't make sense, because if they die as town, it just reflects poorly on me. Now granted, none of us have any idea what inHim (or his potenetial scumbuddies) thought. But with two of the most vocal players (inHim and myself) pushing hard against MBL (another very vocal player), I would halfway expect that scum would leave us all to fight amongst ourselves.

Another note: Twito's use of Occam's Razor seems to be, by far, the most reasonable approach thus far. (Heck, it's the stance that I've tentatively taken.) Yes, there are a bunch of possibilities... but to go with the simplest, most reasonable one is perfectly normal. I'd definitely say that of all the possibilities presented, Twito's is most likely. Few vigilantes choose to kill N1, and as I've mentioned before, there could be a second Doctor, a backup Doctor, a Roleblocker, or some other role (Hider, nightkill immune/resistant player, etc) causing a scumkill to fail. Having scum miss their kills is not an uncommon event in Mafia games. Because one scum died and no townspeople did should not be an invitation to start wild theories involving Janitors, multiple scumgroups, and/or Traitor-killings.
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Post Post #453 (isolation #75) » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:09 am

Post by Glork »

Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:You're not helping, Glrok. I know you have it in you: Hammah tha fool!
I'm really tempted to put my vote back on you. I'm pretty sure that I want inHim dead before the end of the day, but there seems to be
FAR
too much to discuss before we end the day.


Also, my last post was a response to Zindie, obvobv.
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Post Post #455 (isolation #76) » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:11 am

Post by Glork »

Masterchief wrote:Are you talking to me?
Glork wrote:Also, my last post was a response to Zindie, obvobv.

Simluposts for teh loss.
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Post Post #457 (isolation #77) » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:30 am

Post by Glork »

Zindaras wrote:Another problem I have with the vig-theory is that I'm not seeing the reasoning behind vigging MBL.
I donno... depending on who you ask, blatant self-interest and mass OMGUS can be very significant scumtells.
"Glork wants me dead, therefore he is scum. inHim wants me dead, therefore he is scum. Nightson wants me dead, therefore he is scum."

I also pointed out that he was trying to get me to project scumbags based on his alignment way too far in advance. Setting up future lynches based on current lynches is also a fairly common scumtell. MBL wasn't doing it himself, but he was trying to push me to do so... which is something that I definitely found odd and pointed out.
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Post Post #459 (isolation #78) » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:35 am

Post by Glork »

Huh... interesting to note that PJ seems to share these exact same opinions.

I'm going to pull a little WIFOM out of my hat and ask PJ a question:
Do you think that inHim, Glork, and possibly Nightson would so distinctly align their suspicions on Day One as scum, and continue to hold the same voting bloc even going into the second day?
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Post Post #462 (isolation #79) » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:31 pm

Post by Glork »

Just checking. I'd like to think that if I'm scum with inHim and/or Nightson, I wouldn't be completely boneheaded enough to make it that obvious by the end of Day One. Apparently you don't share that confidence in my playing ability. :P
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Post Post #464 (isolation #80) » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:39 pm

Post by Glork »

Touché.
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Post Post #480 (isolation #81) » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:42 pm

Post by Glork »

Unvote Klebian
HAMMAH VOTE: inHimshallibe



=========[]
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Post Post #489 (isolation #82) » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:52 am

Post by Glork »

Vote: PJ
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Post Post #491 (isolation #83) » Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:52 am

Post by Glork »

FoS: Masterchief
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Post Post #493 (isolation #84) » Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:25 am

Post by Glork »

CES may very well be scum, but I would rather be lynching PJ and Klebian.



I'm sure you understand, ThokThok.
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Post Post #495 (isolation #85) » Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:07 pm

Post by Glork »

Unvote, Vote: CES



I get it.
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Post Post #498 (isolation #86) » Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:18 pm

Post by Glork »

I will have reduced access Dec 29-30 and almost no access Dec 31/Jan 1.
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Post Post #515 (isolation #87) » Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:30 am

Post by Glork »

klebian wrote:Well, day 3 has convinced me to take on a different mindset for the rest of the game.
You mean the "Ohcrap, I'm scum and everyone knows it, so I have to come up with a good fakeclaim so as to not get completely dominated" mindset?
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Post Post #525 (isolation #88) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:52 pm

Post by Glork »

What's to be confused about? I understand perfectly. If you're part of the uninformed majority and you look back at yetserday, you should understand, too.
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Post Post #526 (isolation #89) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:52 pm

Post by Glork »

Hmmm... PJ, what do you think of yesterday's CES lynch?
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Post Post #528 (isolation #90) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:45 pm

Post by Glork »

Are you a Gorilla or a Space Monkey?
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Post Post #533 (isolation #91) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:58 pm

Post by Glork »

Thok wrote:Et tu, Glork? I believe I know where you're coming from, and CES is a better lynch.
Glork wrote:
Unvote, Vote: CES



I get it.



It seems rather apparent to me that the Space Monkeys are scum, and that Gorillas are the town. Unfortunately, I 'm guessingthat the Space Monkeys knew this, so "figuring it out" isn't nearly a viable method of confirming anybody.

I've re-read the game a couple of times overnight, and I came to the conclusion that the scums would want to prevent people from figuring things out. I think that's why Zindaras was killed. (As you mentioned, PJ, he started talking about Traitors, and I think Monkeys wanted to prevent that kind of discussion.) I had actually made a case against you, PJ, based on Post 414 The post in which I mentioned SpaceMonkey-Scum and Gorilla-Town was actually pure coincidence, but overnight, when I re-read your response, I wondered why you zoomed in on that sentence and shot it down so quickly. Also, the way you so actively pursued Bird -> inHim -> Glork, it seemed to me that you wanted to just keep the lynches rolling, planting false speculation and turning people away from other discussion, hoping to get through as many days as possible before people figured things out.
However, your claim seems to check out well enough for me for now.

Masterchief is the other person on my short list. I don't like his play at all yesterday (including his "yay nightkills" comment at the start of D3)... so I think that's a pretty good place to start looking. Posts like 441, 472, and 477 indicate to me that he just wanted the inHim lynch to go through.
Vote: Masterchief


I'm uncertain of a lot of my earlier suspicions; I certainly don't think we have *no* information to go on, but I found myself having trouble sifting through what I thought was Gorilla 'Scum' behavior and what might be Space Monkey behavior. I wonder if the MBL-wagon may have been telling in some way or another (though unfortunately, that probably points to me moreso than anybody else).

There's one other thing that I find a bit alarming about the fact that Space Monkeys are the scumbags: SpeedyKQ was the only death N1, as a Space Monkey Doctor. This seems to indicate the the presence of multiple killers/groups. Maybe there really is a rogue faction of Gorillas trying to kill everyone else. Maybe there's just an SK of some kind. I have no idea. But we had one SM killed Night One, and we've had at most one death each night. I don't know if we can figure this out yet.


Now, part of me wants to discuss how we should go about hunting for Space Monkeys by examining how they might have behaved knowing that the town was completely ass-backwards. Like I said, I would've expected the SMs to want to make it as far as possible before the town figured things out. I also think that at least one of the SMs may have been tactically lurking. I think that today, we should probably force some other players out of the woodwork. Poke around at the people who didn't contribute, or those who feigned contribution, but let all of us run around pointing fingers at each other and pushing Gorilla-Lynches.
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Post Post #545 (isolation #92) » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:51 pm

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:Of course, if there is a Space Monkey Godfather, I would certainly hope they would be revealed as a "Space Monkey Godfather". But there lies the problem: if the point of the set-up is to continually make the Gorillas think they were scum, Stoofer
would not
ever put down "Space Monkey Godfather" or "Space Monkey Goon" and so on, because that would give it away. And since I think it would be drastically unfair to not reveal to the town when/if they have killed the Godfather, that leads me to believe the chances of such a role in this game particularly unlikely.
The other thing that worries me is the fact that dead Gorillas have only been revealed as "Gorilla." We don't know if any power are dead or not; on the other hand, neither to the scums. This game puts us in a very unique position in that alignments are revealed, but actual roles are not necessarily made public.
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Post Post #547 (isolation #93) » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:34 pm

Post by Glork »

I don't consider it an advantage either. If you'll notice, I said that it
worries
me.
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Post Post #570 (isolation #94) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:24 am

Post by Glork »

Guys, why isn't MC dead yet?


Seriously. Dude needs killed today.
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Post Post #576 (isolation #95) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:54 pm

Post by Glork »

dahen wrote:Thok, let's hear your result if they don't overlap too much.

Glork, isn't it best to wait for Thok before lynching Masterchief?
I didn't say MC needed killed
NOW
. I said he needed killed
TODAY
.
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Post Post #589 (isolation #96) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:45 pm

Post by Glork »

Are you a Space Monkey, Masterchief?
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Post Post #599 (isolation #97) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:07 pm

Post by Glork »

I'm so good at this game.
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Post Post #606 (isolation #98) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:39 pm

Post by Glork »

Aw, PJ, you can trust the Glorkster. Do you really think I would accept a pseudo-confirmed innocent state as a scumbag and then try to stab you in the back later on? <333
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Post Post #608 (isolation #99) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:06 pm

Post by Glork »

I thought you loved me! :(
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Post Post #617 (isolation #100) » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:42 am

Post by Glork »

I still maintain that we should be going after lurky people. Like SV said, Nightson and StD have been very quiet -- which is interesting to me, since StD was much more active earlier in the game. I'll have to go back and check on that -- StD's fading could be indicative of someone who didn't want to misstep when the game state got hairy.

Still, I don't really remember Nightson doing
anything
, so I'd like to really take a look at him. I don't really like his vote on MC; it gives me the impression that he's either busing MC or that he's like "yay, easy mislynch!" I'm obviously leaning towards the former, but I'd wager that Nightson is a stinky Space Monkey Tactical Lurker.

Fritz, unfortunately, will continue to be Fritz. I wouldn't mind applying some pressure, but he's so often hard to read. I don't get the same feeling from him that I had in, say, Covert Ops, so I'm leaning *slightly* towards him being pro-town, mainly because I think that Nightson and StD are better bets.

Twito hasn't really struck me either way. I could almost see the distancing, as PJ mentions it, but I don't think any smart scum are in a position to be busing right now. I'd guess about three scums left, based on the numbers and the schtick surrounding this game, and getting in the kind of argument that Twito/MC are in does not lend itself towards them
both
being scum. Maybe they're suiciding or self-imploding; I don't know. I suppose we all know that they're completely capable of doing so. And MC *is* the obvious bus target if he's just that damned thick. The thing is, I've never seen MC fantically scream OMGUS at a
scumbuddy
when he's going down in flames. As far as I know, he's always tried to shoot down a townsperson instead. I have to think about this more.

Klebian does not strike me as being a scumbag at this time, but I want to read over all of his posts again. I thought he was a SpaceMonkeyTown earlier, which is why I wanted him lynched, but I obviously need to reassess my post-revelation opinion on him.

Preview Edit: Actually, I just isolated Klebian's posts, and I see a couple of things that indicate that he might have been trying to fit in or associate with PJ, and buddy up to him in a way. PJ sortof addressed some of these, but I want to take a closer look at them in just a minute to see if I can talk/write my way through this.
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Post Post #621 (isolation #101) » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:21 am

Post by Glork »

klebian wrote:Well, I'm a soldier as well. Unfortunately, unlike dahen, I HAVEN'T been dropping hints throughout the game, because I don't consider myself a likley nightkill, and I also didn't think the gorillas knew that they were looking for someone, so I didn't think there's much one can do to drop hints when the person you're dropping them for doesn't have a clue...
I do think thok should give his results later in the day, because it seems like he's a likely nightkill for tonight. PJ is obviously confirmed, since he was first to claim, and... well, never mind, my thinking mirrors PJ and his is better worded.

Before I dismiss this thought from my mind, inhim couldn't have ACTUALLY been an unroleblocker, could he have? kthx.
In this post, Klebian tries to associate with PJ and Dahen as a Gorilla Soldier, as he basically claims the same role as both of them. I'm not sure why a Gorilla would want to basically start massclaiming. No need to rush things. I do, however, see how a Space Monkey would want to fit in; less likely to be investigated if someone along the way (such as PJ) decides to vouch for you. Klebian, could you explain what was going through your head when you decided to roleclaim?

(Also, a side-comment to that last question: I don't think inHim was really an unroleblocker. He definitely claimed an interesting role, but it seemed quite obviously fake to everyone involved. I suppose this might be confirmed/denied if Thok gets roleblocked and obtains no result, as the truth of inHim's role is basically only useful if there's an SM-Roleblocker around.)

Klebian wrote:I was under the impression that what my PM meant was that I would get 'found' if my group attempted to kill me. I didn't realize that there was actual 'hunting' for gorillas "going on". That may just be inexperience; I am not familiar with traitor roles and I guess I just assumed incorrectly. That's why I said in my quoted post 'I don't consider myself a likley nightkill'. This is just me being stupid.
Okay, now this I can see. Traitors are generally recruited when targeted by a scumgroup, so there's no need to assume that you'll be
killed
instead. I would have come to the same conclusion if I had a Traitor/Soldier role (Note: This is not an indication one way or another whether I am a Soldier or not; just saying, this is how I would have interpreted it as well.)


PJ brings up an interesting point about how it's dangerous to assume that he is a Gorilla based solely on the claim -- that's something that I had periphially considered, but it didn't sound likely to me at the time. Klebian's response is almost as interesting:
Klebian wrote:I don't know if they're all uniform; the way you described your role is the same as my PM. I considered this, however I dismissed it because I think that the scum have earned enough of an advantage with 3 days of town confusion. Similar to your logic about godfathers/millers, I do not think that the mod would give the scum a generic townie PM coupled with the entire town thinking they are the scum.
Again, he basically says that he's got the same role, PM, etc... which I guess isn't unjustified, as he had already claimed at the time. But he alos says that he assumed that scum would not be given generic Soldier/Townie/What-Have-You role PMs in addition to the backwardsness. On the other hand, when the shit hits the proveribal fan for the scums and we figure things out, any sort of emphasis on
flavorful claiming
pretty much screws them over. As Thok said, it's definitely possible to weed out a fake claim based on flavor alone. Those kinds of things can break a game, so I would actually expect Stoof to give the Space Monkeys an out when the town finally does figure things out. Could you expand a little more on why you don't think SMs would be given PMs (or at least flavor) from the Gorilla perspective?


I love the juicy irony of this paragraph:
Klebian wrote:PJ, I reread the last few pages, and I feel you're being a bit to naiive about Glork. It's interesting that you guys have been butting heads for the past 2.5 days, and today after your claim, he accepts your claim, agrees that monkeys are scum, and now you're fairly convinced he's town. I believe that a space monkey could've easily made 533 as a gorilla. At this point, I think a smart monkey would've seen that their 'cover' for the game was blown, and decided to reveal the truth. Obviously, others were discovering it as well, so it's quite possible that glork made good use of the perfect opportunity to become buddies with one of the most influential town members. Not much of his post is written from a point of view that I would consider solely gorilla, and I as well am feeling that glork is not as confirmed as we may think.
This is where I have to watch my OMGUS tendencies a little bit, since Klebian attempts to discredit me... but the gist of this paragraph is, "It's distinctly possible that Glork, as a Space Monkey tried to sneak into the middle of the 'revelation' so as to look more confirmed." I find it beyond amusing that Klebian suggests that I might be doing so and that I shouldn't be confirmed, when I think that the same argument/evidence can be brought up against him.


So... yeah. I think Klebian might have trying to be a somewhat active, "look at me, I fit in" kind of scumbag. I guess my short list of people who need to die or be looked at is as follows:
Nightson
StD
Klebian
Twito
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Post Post #630 (isolation #102) » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:13 pm

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:
Masterchief: CLAIM.
Now
.
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Post Post #648 (isolation #103) » Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:19 am

Post by Glork »

Still pretty sure that both MC and Nightson should be dead ASAP.
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Post Post #650 (isolation #104) » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:37 pm

Post by Glork »

AndrewS wrote:
Vote: MasterChief
:goodposting:
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Post Post #656 (isolation #105) » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:29 am

Post by Glork »

Okay, in all seriousness, PJ, Andrew has a very reasonable point.

Suppose MC really is a Gorilla. Suppose we elect to keep him alive, guessing that he's too moronic to realize what's going on, but that he's, y'know... a pretty genuine kind of guy. It's a damned sure bet that the Space Monkeys are going to keep him alive, and then when it *really* comes down to it, in that clutch endgame situation, MC's gonna be a Gorilla, and the other Gorilla is going to have to choose the Space Monkey. We then leave it up to MC (who thinks he is GorillaScum and will hammer indiscriminately) to "find the scum" and win the game. It basically becomes a game of "hope that you vote first and that MC hammers [LOLROFL] the other guy first." I don't want to do that.

Regardless of his alignment, his existence is a detriment to the town. Even then, I'd still give odds that he's scum. Given what we see as the Space Monkeys' alleged win condition (which I suppose I see no reason to doubt) and given the wording MC used in his claim, I think he probably paraphrased it using the in-game lynch method, thinking that he might be modkilled if he quoted or copy/pasted it directly.

Basically, I'm thinking that there's a likely chance (60%ish) that he's scum, and that even in the event that he is town, he probably needs to be dead. As such is the case, I'd like to see his alignment when we go into night. I firmly believe that he is the play today.
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Post Post #659 (isolation #106) » Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:19 am

Post by Glork »

Oohhhhh. I misread your post.


I donno, I really don't have much to say right now. I'd like to hear from StD, who has not posted in a solid week. He's on my list, and he seems to have disappeared as of late, after the revelations and after making a "gut" vote on Fritzler.

If it makes you feel any better, though, I can
Unvote MC
. There. :P
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Post Post #679 (isolation #107) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:04 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:Need to be off to class very soon, but
FoS: Glork
. This might turn into a vote very soon. The entire Masterchief scenario yesterday (with Glork pushing for it constantly after trying to make
me
look worse for "rolling lynches along") played on my mind while the game was waiting in night.
Um... I think you misunderstand the "suspicious for rolling lynches along" argument I was going to make yesterday. That was in reference to Days 1-3 when I felt that Space Monkeys would have wanted to do so in order to keep the town from discussing and possibly figure things out. My case was based on the way you pursued Bird/inHim/Glork, not from anything you did post-revelation (especially considering you didn't actually figure things out until we were in D4). If you think you can make a legitimate parallel between pre-revelation behavior and post-revelation behavior, I'm interested to hear it. But I'm not really sure where you're coming from with that.


Anyway, I still like my
Vote: Nightson
, but I could definitely see StD as a Space Monkey, as I indicated yesterday.
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Post Post #686 (isolation #108) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:53 pm

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:
StD wrote:I still want an answer from PJ.
I don't answer to monkeys.

Vote: Glork
. I smell monkey dung all over him. He didn't even bother to really consider not lynching MasterChief yesterday, but instead stupidly pushed "lynch Masterchief as soon as possible" agenda without pondering alternatives to MC's play. I've seen him play similarly as scum, especially when it comes to picking on the worst players who are pretty much
bound
screw up, and then to harp on them
when
they screw up to push an eventual lynch.
Wrong, right, right, and wrong.
I'm not a Monkey.
I did go after MC pretty much right away.
I did want MC lynched and didn't look at anybody else with any firm lynch-intent.
I'm curious to see what evidence you have against . In Mafia 49, for example, I seem to recall protecting newer players (I shied away from significant wagons/lynches on Max, Machiavellian-Mafia, and Masterchief) and going after the likes of MBL and BMQ. In Caddyshack, I went after RAJ extensively on Day Two. The only example I can think of off-hand in which I went after newer players specifically would be Committee Mafia.

The explanation for my pushing of an MC lynch is very simple. I was quite convinced that he was scum. So I clamored that we lynch him. That's pretty much what I do. Don't make me go hunting for supporting examples; I'm a lazy bastard and I don't feel like doing it.
PJ wrote:Also, Glork indicated that he "got it" on D3 of the game, and by that time, I seriously doubt many people would have seriously "got" that Space Monkeys were scum at that point in the game, unless they had more info than the average player (i.e. Thok).
I wouldn't consider myself "many people." Thok hinted several times that things were in reverse, and it didn't really dawn on me until he said "Et tu, Glork?" Between that, Zindie's hinting, and the deaths to date, I still maintain that it wasn't terribly difficult to figure it out. In the very next post, Dahen indicated that he too understood what was going on. Klebian needed a little bit of extra time (presumably Thok's post about him being in "the informed minority"), but he too got it before the end of the day. It is not unreasonable to conclude that Thok's additional info led to his earlier discovery, but if you look at the numbers he was looking at (1 dead SM, 1 investigated SM, 3 dead Gorillas, 3 investigated Gorillas -- unless I miscounted) versus what we had on D3 (1 dead SM, 4 dead Gorillas; Thok essentially claiming info and hinting towards backwardsness of alignment; the own traitor nature of our own role PM), it just... makes sense to me.
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Post Post #689 (isolation #109) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:10 pm

Post by Glork »

Post 525: You call the question loaded or not-making-sense, but you're ignoring the fact that if you were a Space Monkey, you could have continued to feign confusion (which is certainly something I could see a crafty SM trying to do). In fact, your response
looked
like you were playing far dumber than I figured GorillaPJ would actually be:
petroleumjelly wrote:I'm apparently uninformed, that's for sure. Otherwise I might understand why you are implying that yesterday somehow makes perfect sense. I guess the whole "Thok led a mislynch on CES" and then calling it "excellent" confuses me.

As for yesterday's lynch, it looks like a mislynch to me, in a town which I am noticing is prone to bandwagoning. Last I checked, we're supposed to be lynching gorilla-scum. Are you trying to imply that gorillas
are not
scum, and that space monkeys
are
?
I felt at that point that you were either genuinely not paying attention (and/or that you were denser than I was giving you credit for) or that you were deliberately "not paying attention." I was leaning towards the latter. That's why I asked the other question to which you replied.

Post 528: Apparently you didn't understand the intent behind this one. There was plenty of evidence in the thread to lead you towards the idea that Gorillas are town and Space Monkeys are scum. My question, if you'll notice, was the first explicit mentioning of the two groups with a distinct eye towards questioning GorillaScum. The question was not one by which to
judge
you. It was one to make you openly discuss what most of the rest of us were thinking. I didn't particularly want you to
claim
... but again, I was looking for some insight as to how you would end up having your revelation. I had a case laid out against you already, but I wanted to be sure that you understood why I made the case that I did, and I thought that your reaction would be telling in some way or another.


Also, I find it more-than-ridiculous that you're harping on me for pressing the MC lynch when you yourself voted out of annoyance (and even though you
thought
he was likely pro-town). Nor do I understand how you can question the basis behind the wagon. As I mentioned in the first part of my post, "confusion" isn't a tell either way. Suppose one of MC's scumbuddies had told him to act really aloof when the shit hit the proverbial fan. I hadn't really thought about it one way or another in MC's case; I maintain that I thought I'd found scum, and I don't think you can make a case that my behavior was inconsistent with the way I normally act when I want a lynch to go through. In retrospect, yes, I can almost see where you have a point about his confusion and apparent not-paying-attention.

Call it OMGUS if you'd like, but your behavior has me thinking that if there
is
a Godfather-like role in the game that you are probably the one with that role. Though you voted on the MC wagon (despite stating that you think he was pro-town), you never attempted to analytically dismantle the case against him until today.
I'd really like to know why you didn't do so.
If you don't like the lynch, it is not smart or appropriate to join the wagon and then attack another player for it the next day. The play is to try to convince the town that he is not the right lynch. You say that you were annoyed that the town wasn't talking enough on the most critical day of the game. Yet instead of actively doing something to prolong the day, by defending a player you thought to be pro-town, you joined the wagon and let the lynch go through. This makes
no sense whatsoever.
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Post Post #692 (isolation #110) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:18 pm

Post by Glork »

Fritzler wrote:i don't think we should kill glork or pj
Who *do* you think we should kill?
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Post Post #695 (isolation #111) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:29 pm

Post by Glork »

klebian wrote:Basically, glork, what you're saying is that you think that in a game where the first 3 days have most of the town thinkin they're scum, you think the ONE gorilla investigative role will be hindered by a godfather, AND that the godfather (and I guess, the rest of the scum) has the exact generic townie PM?
No. I'm saying that
IF
there's a Godfather role (which, yes, would exist to throw off the one investigative role... though this is hardly out-of-the-ordinary), then I think that it would be PJ.

As far as the role PM goes, I'm trying to think about that; it's really the one thing that's kept me from switching to PJ. I'll admit that it's far less likely that Space Monkeys have entire role PMs. But in order to avoid breaking the game post-revelation, I would expect that they have some kind of flavor. Win condition, rolename(s) (such as Soldier)... something.

Don't try to interpret "I think the existence of a Godfather means that PJ is scum" to mean "I think that there is a Godfather and that PJ is the one."I still find the existence of a Godfather as a whole unlikely. But I also feel that there are still things at work here that we just don't understand. I don't know how deep the backwardsness goes, and I don't want us to lose the game because we make an erroneous assumption based on what we think is fair or right.
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Post Post #696 (isolation #112) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:37 pm

Post by Glork »

Fritzler wrote:kind of am thinking andrew
Are you even paying any attention? Andrew was investigated as innocent by Thok.
FoS: Fritz


Get with the program, dude. Seriously. No more goofing around... we're probably not at LyLo yet, but you're certainly not helping find any scums.
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Post Post #698 (isolation #113) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:46 pm

Post by Glork »

Yesterday, Thok announced his results:
Thok wrote:I might as well release my results now (although they may not mean much if Pooky doesn't get replaced).

Night 1 CES-Space Monkey
Night 2 PJ-Gorilla
Night 3 Phoebus (now SV)-Gorilla
Night 4 Pooky-Gorilla
AndrewS replaced Pooky later in the day.


Unvote, Vote: Fritzler

I'm really not buying/liking this right now. I'll return to Nightson in a bit, but I want to put Fritz under the microscope. If you're actually a Gorilla, seriously shape up and go re-read the thread or something. If you're a Space Monkey... well, thank you. You're making this almost too easy.
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Post Post #701 (isolation #114) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:55 pm

Post by Glork »

"Come on" what? You haven't done anything to try to find scum all game, and you're passing it off as not paying attention. You're usually much more vigilant than this. Stoof announced in the thread that AndrewS replaced Pooky. And it's listed in the playerlist in the first post of the game. I don't buy any of this right now. I realize that you can be incredibly lazy, but I also know that you're incredibly intelligent, and I could definitely see you trying to slide by via "laziness."


But now that you've said it already, I'm curious to know:
What made you think that Andrew was the right play? What in his posts/behavior made you decide that he was likely scum?
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Post Post #702 (isolation #115) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:56 pm

Post by Glork »

^^ The above was directed at Fritz, obvobv.
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Post Post #706 (isolation #116) » Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:53 am

Post by Glork »

Fritz should be kept alive because he
makes you laugh
?


I'm now thinking Twito+Fritz might be part of our scumgroup.
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Post Post #711 (isolation #117) » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:27 am

Post by Glork »

I'm not sure I can make a defense that doesn't bring WIFOM into things, but you seem to be ignoring the possibility that you were set up by someone
else
to be lynched.

Yes, I was considering PJ+MBL. But anyone (CES, Fritz?, STD?, maybe Nightson?) -- knowing how stubborn I can be, and how much I would try/need to appear consistent -- can off one of you knowing that I'll likely end up going after the other. It wouldn't have made much sense for me to go after someone else if I was linking you to MBL and MBL suddenly died as scum. I had guessed at the time that MBL was vigged, and so I kept hammering away at you, partially for consistency's sake, and partially because I was starting to think that you were SpaceMonkeyTown and I wanted you dead.

You very well may have something with the MBL+Zindaras nightkills trying to get you framed. But you assume that, since I was attacking you (despite thinking I was scum, and just trying to get you lynched), this necessarily implies that I was the one behind the nightkills. Obviously, I don't see that as being the case. You yourself admitted that you were guilty of trying to set me up with the Bird+inHim lynches. With you going down one wrong path, the scums can make their nightkills and set me down another wrong path. I think that, had Thok not essentially claimed on D3, one of us probably would have been lynched that day. And then, if the revelation came on D4, the other one of us probably would have been lynched for mongering things too much and "leading everyone around." You accuse me of not taking context into things. Yet I think that you're choosing to see
only
the context that you
wish
to see. Look at the bigger picture; I don't think that the Space Monkeys were only in control of the nightkills... I'm starting to think that they probably had a significant hand in the lynches as well, even if they were not the most vocal supporters of the D1 and D2 lynches.

And again, I'll say to you what I said to Klebian: I don't actually find it
likely
that you are scum or that there is a GF in the game. I just still find your play scummy enough that there is still the
possibility
that you are.
Perhaps I should rephrase what I said earlier as such:
If the game gets to the point where all of the remaining unknowns are dead, and it's down to a bunch of "confirmed" innocents, I would want the town to seriously look at lynching you before anybody else.
The evidence is definitely there; and if all other options fail and I'm still alive, I'll probably find myself pointing at you instead of Klebian, Thok, or AndrewS.
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Post Post #714 (isolation #118) » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:49 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:1.)
Glork wrote:I had guessed at the time that MBL was vigged, and so I kept hammering away at you, partially for consistency's sake, and partially because I was starting to think that you were SpaceMonkeyTown and I wanted you dead.
Explain. You thought I was SpaceMonkeyTown on D2, after there were only 2 dead gorillas and 1 dead Space Monkey Doctor? This is certainly new information to me.
:roll:
Go look at the attacks I made on you/Ibby and MBL and the connections I drew. Try to tell me that they weren't contrived. Remember discredting my attack on Ibby? Remember talking about taking advantage of her absence to foist suspicion upon her? Hey, guess what. You were right! I didn't really suspect you, and there wasn't really a basis for my linking you and MBL the way I did. I figured you were probably town, but I was going to be damned if I wasn't going to get one or both of you lynched.
By Day Two, I was a little miffed that MBL was actually scum, but I didn't really think that you were his scumbuddy. I was actually somewhat pleased with myself for having connected you two together, and I was hoping that I could get that momentum against you early in the day. It just didn't pan out, though.
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Post Post #731 (isolation #119) » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:22 am

Post by Glork »

Will modkillings continue or end the current day?
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Post Post #737 (isolation #120) » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:15 am

Post by Glork »

Ready and willing to switch to Nightson at the drop of a hat.
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Post Post #741 (isolation #121) » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:13 am

Post by Glork »

I'm so calling hammah on Nightson.


I guess I'll give him a little while longer to show up, though. The deadline is nearly six full days away, and who knows... somebody might actually find something to say by then. *glares at StD and Fritz angrily*
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Post Post #743 (isolation #122) » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:16 am

Post by Glork »

I CALLED IT FIRST, DAHEN!! >=[
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Post Post #746 (isolation #123) » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:26 pm

Post by Glork »

Hmm...
Unvote, Vote: StD



I'm still not very happy with Fritz, but I still find StD+Nightson far more likely. StD, do you have anything to say for yourself? You've jumped around, saying that you had just a gut instinct on Fritz, and you really haven't done much else today.
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Post Post #754 (isolation #124) » Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:00 am

Post by Glork »

Thok: Class in an hour, but I'll have a response to you tonight sometime.
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Post Post #756 (isolation #125) » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:11 am

Post by Glork »

I really don't see much of a problem with Twito's attacks, and I think he genuinely thought that he found scum. This comment in particular:
Twito wrote:
Glork wrote:I'm so good at this game.
You? Bah!
makes me think that he really thought he had busted somebody (and that I was attempting to steal his thunder with my brazen attitude).
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Post Post #758 (isolation #126) » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:33 am

Post by Glork »

Thok wrote:OK, let me rephrase that. Why was MC's attack on Twito a sign of him being a Space Monkey, but not Twito's attack on MC?

(Look, it's Glork's favorite scum hunting tool!)
I'm... not really sure what you're asking. I never thought that MC's attacks on Twito were a sign of him being a Space Monkey. In fact, I'm not entirely sure that MC ever really attacked Twito other than as OMGUS.
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Post Post #765 (isolation #127) » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:54 am

Post by Glork »

I'm
reasonably
sure that exactly one of Fritz/STD are scum. I don't think scum are in any position to be busing right now, so if they're reciprocal-voting on the two most likely lynches (at this time, anyway), I find it unlikely that they are both scum. I still think that either one of them could be scum (which is why I'm saying exactly one).


In other news, I'd
REALLY
like to hear from Dahen soon. I know he's had limited access recently, but he has been surprisingly quiet as of late.
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Post Post #782 (isolation #128) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:53 pm

Post by Glork »

I'm not really swayed by StD's win-condition claim. Other than Back to Gambits II, Stoof has presented a "pro-town win condition" in his other games (Mini 211 and Mini 250, as well as Stoof's most recent game over in NY). Obviously he can't present the Gorilla win condition in-thread without raising any alarms, but it leads me to believe that he wouldn't leave the Space Monkeys hanging in the event that we tried to use win conditions to confirm/condemn anybody.
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Post Post #784 (isolation #129) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:44 pm

Post by Glork »

OMGIS?
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Post Post #793 (isolation #130) » Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:04 am

Post by Glork »

PJ: Obviously, my top suspect was still StD. I would not have been voting for him if I did not think that he was most likely to be scum.

Right now, I'm not really sure what to think. I agree that Dahen is probably pro-town, so by mere process of elimination, I'm looking at a scumgroup of Fritz, Twito, and Nightson unless there are Godfather-esque factors involved (in which case, I'm actually looking at Klebian now, rather than PJ, as I'm less confident that scums would be given a full Gorilla Soldier PM). Out of everybody, I'm most comfortable with a Nightson lynch, followed by lynches on Twito and Fritz.


That said, we're almost certainly in LyLo now, which is why I'm refraining from voting for anybody at the moment. Thok, I would suggest that you not reveal your target until we've heard everybody weigh in at least once or twice. I want to hear what everybody thinks with five un-investigated players. I think that stronger speculations based on less information will be much more telling for us
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Post Post #795 (isolation #131) » Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:05 am

Post by Glork »

...and there goes that last suggestion.
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Post Post #798 (isolation #132) » Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:12 am

Post by Glork »

This game is literally hurting my brain right now. No jokes.

PJ's post isn't terribly surprising to me. I was actually hoping that Thok would've investigated
me
last night... it would've saved me a whole lot of trouble. :(

I'll have a response sometime tonight. I have this case study to finish by 6 PM as well as classes to attend.
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Post Post #802 (isolation #133) » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:22 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:I agree. It would have saved you the trouble of trying to act like a Gorilla for a whole 'nother day. You poor thing.
:lol:
Cute. But no.

petroleumjelly wrote:Glork's Votes Throughout the Game: MrBuddyLee [Gorilla], Bogre/Thok [Gorilla], Sarcastro/Zindaras [Gorilla], Ibaesha/PJ [Gorilla], InHimShallIBe [Gorilla], CES [Space Monkey - but tried to vote PJ, Gorilla], Masterchief [Gorilla].... and yesterday, Nightson [Unknown], Fritzler [Unknown], Save the Dragons [Gorilla]
The only person who is more upset than you are with this voting record is me. My play has been atrocious. I realize that, and I also realize that it's probably going to get me lynched at some point to end the game. I pride myself on my ability to find scum, and I have failed miserably at doing so. I expect to have bad games from time to time (Jelly Mafia), and this is one of them. Obviously, though, my reuptation seems to precede me nowadays, as I consistently find myself being accused of being scum for being wrong. Now, I'm not by any means going to give up, but if I do get lynched and we lose, at least I'll finally be able to point to a game and say "Look, even Glork sucks at scumfinding from time to time." I've played like crap. I probably deserve to lose.

Still, I don't like trying to find scum based on voting records, especially in this particular game. I'm tempted to go through and compile each living player's voting history to see how accurate (or, rather, inaccurate) they have been over the course of the game... in fact, I probably will do that if I find the time to do so. However, there are two things wrong with using this kind of evidence. First, there's the obvious fact that for the first couple of days, all of the Gorillas thought that they were scums... and, consequently, players seemed a lot more careless, bandwagony, and manipulative with their votes. Second, voting records cannot necessarily be an indication of a player's alignment. If you look at Lights Out 1, my play was absolutely awful until I found Logic and DM. I was looking in all fo the wrong places. I was not only
on
every mislynch, I
pushed
many of those mislynches. Had somebody gone through my prior voting/suspicion records, I probably would have been lynched then, too. (And, in fact, I remember Coolbot pressing for a lynch on me based on the way he felt I was playing.) I maintain that my voting record has been an indication of bad play, not of a bad alignment.
PJ wrote:I think Glork has been trying to constantly pair off one of his scum-partners. He tries to pawn Twito off with Fritz earlier, and even though he proposes such a scum-group, he votes for Fritz over Twito. He also has not really gone after Twito pretty much the entire game.
You're taking this particular example out of context. If you'll notice, I voted for Fritz for his aloof behavior, which I suspect was fake. I didn't mention Twito until Twito said that we should keep Fritz around "because he's funny." To say I pawned Twito off on Fritz and "though I propose a scumgropu, vote for Fritz over Twito" is completely inaccurate, as it implies that I presented the pairing before voting for Fritz.
PJ wrote:Glork tried to pair Nightson with Fritzler, and then Save the Dragons. In fact, here are the exact pairings he has tried to show (and this is just lately: it doesn't even consider the bad Zindaras + PJ, MBL + PJ, etc)...

Twito
+ Fritz
StD
+ Nightson
Fritz + Nightson
StD
or Fritz

Lousy Glork. You should have been dead a long time ago. I'll hold off voting so we can have discussion today.
Beh. I can't really think of an explanation that doesn't fall into WIFOM territory.
However, my tendency when implicating a scumbuddy with another player has been to bus the buddy then use that kind of momentum to fuel a lynch against the other player. It doesn't make nearly as much sense (in my mind, anyway) to point to Scumbuddy A and Player B and consistently go after Player B. If you'll remember from past games, that's one of my favorite ways to catch
other
scumbags, so I generally make it a point to
avoid
exhibiting those exact same scumtells. It is, IMHO, short-sighted and a horrendously delicate way to try to manipulate a town, and it rarely works in fooling any decent player for very long.
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Post Post #812 (isolation #134) » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:45 am

Post by Glork »

Dear Dahen,

You posted in nearly all of your games in the past day, yet you seem to be neglecting this one. Why is that? Do you not like us? Are you hoping to lurk your way to victory? What are your thoughts?

XOXO,
Glork
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Post Post #819 (isolation #135) » Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:06 pm

Post by Glork »

Nightson wrote:Post coming tomorrow (just to reassure people that I'm here)
Where is that post, Nightson?

Dahen, where is your post?

Klebian, what are your thoughts?

Fritz: What flavor ice cream?
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Post Post #823 (isolation #136) » Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:22 am

Post by Glork »

Oh, you're right... I somehow missed that. :oops:
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Post Post #826 (isolation #137) » Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:15 am

Post by Glork »

I see shades of Chrono Trigger, and I don't like it one bit.


Seriously, where the hell is everybody? If the game weren't at such a critical juncture, I would suggest just mass modkills, but that seems like a really crappy way to potentially end a game.
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Post Post #833 (isolation #138) » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:13 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:Right, right. Because the game wasn't in a critical juncture the day we lynched CES, or Masterchief, or when StD got himself modkilled. I like how you're trying to step it up
now
, when it was clear we needed to step things up
three days ago
.
I'd really like to throw something at you right now. Unfortunately, you seem to be all the way across the country, and my arm isn't
that
good.

I had no power over the CES wagon. I voted him early on, and then I was barely around beween Dec 28 and Jan 1 -- the time during which he got lynched.
After the revelation, on the day MC was lynched, I said that we should be pressuring and going after lurky players.
Yesterday, I was trying to stay active and keep other players active a bit. I even said specifically that I wanted to hear from Dahen. Even though I find him most likely to be pro-town out of the unknowns, I still wanted him to pop in and contribute.

PJ, instead of making snide comments or poorly founded accusations of hypocrisy, perhaps you could be arsed into stirring up the others as well, rather than simply complaining when we lose the game due to player inactivity.
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Post Post #834 (isolation #139) » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:20 am

Post by Glork »

Er... forigve me if that came across as harsh. I am in a horrible mood right now.


I probably won't get a solid re-read in until tomorrow at the earliest. I'd like to think that there's a Doc, and there is certainly evidence to suggest it. If not, I still think we've got the game fairly well under control. Either way, I'm not sure that kind of speculation will do us much good.
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Post Post #838 (isolation #140) » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:37 am

Post by Glork »

Hey, why do
I
have to sit in the corner?
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Post Post #849 (isolation #141) » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:45 am

Post by Glork »

Vote: Twito
before I forget to do so or something.
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Post Post #857 (isolation #142) » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:41 am

Post by Glork »

I'm going to go ahead and claim now.

I'm a Gorilla Captain. I have special training that regular gorillas don't have, and and I have authority. Once per night, I can order one primate to stand down and take no action. More importantly, I'm effectively a Roleblocker, and I'm pretty sure that my N4 choice (Klebian) is a scumbag. My night choices to date - with reasons:
N1: inHim - Random
N2: PJ - Thought PJ was SM-town
N3: PJ - Thought PJ was SM-town
N4: Klebian - Based on his lack of CES-hammah
N5: Klebian - Based on lack of kill the previous night
N6: Fritzler - Testing for lack of nightkill
N7: Nightson - Testing for lack of nightkill

I defaulted to Doc-protection for the lack of a kill, even though I wasn't really sure about Klebian; that's why I went and looked at his posts again and made a case against him when I found something. When Thok investigated Klebs the next night, I figured that it was in fact Doc protection and assumed Klebian was town.

Anyway, on this past night: In what spare time I've had this weekend, I've put a sizeable amount of thought into all of this, and I've read over Klebian's posts a couple of times. I decided that the Godfather role isn't even that big a deal. If Thok had investigated Klebian as a "Gorilla" before the revelation, he probably would have been unlikely to try to get Klebian lynched unless he really felt like busing somebody. (And given the ration of Gorilladeaths to SMdeaths, even that's unlikely at best.) After the revelation, a "Gorilla" result on Klebs would simply be seen as an innocent.

Anyway... I definitely think that Klebs is scum. He avoided hammering CES. He never really weighed in on Twito much, instead following PJ's lead in going after me and later voting for StD. And when he made his analysis of Twito's posts, he came to a non-conclusion, saying that Twito interacted with Glork/Nightson/Fritz a little bit, and actually complimenting Twito for avoiding talking to any of us.

Then, y'know, there's the whole "lack of an N4 kill with no apparent Doctor role" thing.


Vote: Klebian
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Post Post #861 (isolation #143) » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:08 pm

Post by Glork »

PJ: I understand the sentiment, but I have to point out that it's silly to suggest that I'm a scum roleblocker. I'd have been blocking Thok nightly if so. Also, Fritz seems to have implied that he's not a roleblocker by voting for Klebs. I agree that Nightson should check in, though.


Klebs: The "godfather" thing was because I wanted to try to explain why I felt that it's reaosnable for you to have a GF role. Thok had an innocent investigation on you, and so we have to recognize that if my role ability has in fact caught a scumbag, there must be some logical explanation behind the existence of a Godfather. I've come to the conclusion that MC wasn't a Doctor (Ensigns don't have any medical expertise), and I see no reason to believe the existence of a second roleblocker; my role certainly does not indicate that such is the case. The only other explanation for there to have been no kill N4 is if the scums missed their kill. And while I've recoginzed it as a possibility, I just don't see it as being the case. Maybe I'll go double-check on posting times before/after the night to make sure.


Nightson, we need to hear from you. Now.
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Post Post #863 (isolation #144) » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:27 pm

Post by Glork »

Okay, I just looked at the before and after of CES's lynch. Klebian made the next-to-last post of the day, Fritz posted within 24 hours of the start of night, and Nightson posted within 24 hours after Night's end.
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Post Post #865 (isolation #145) » Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:34 pm

Post by Glork »

Nightson hasn't made a post on-site since February 1. Something probably needs to be done about that. I'd like to see him replaced, rather than modkilled, if at all possible; as I said the other day, swinging the game one way or another based on a modkill just seems wrong.
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Post Post #877 (isolation #146) » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:55 am

Post by Glork »

PJ wrote:1.) How many Space Monkeys do you think are left?
2.) Do you think the Space Monkeys have any abilities?
3.) Given the answers to above, do you think a Lynch or a No-Lynch is strategically better with 6 players alive?
1) I'm thinking that there are two SMs left, so we are at LyLo unless I can block a kill. There might be one plus a traitor, if SpeedyKQ's death wasn't planned. Otherwise, I'd guess that it's two SMs in cahoots still.
2) I don't think that they have any abilities. I don't really have anything to back this up, but I just find it unlikely.
3) Okay, here's why I would lynch today: If Klebian dies as scum, there'll be 5 players left. I'll flat-out state whether I'm blocking Fritz or Nightson (as I still believe dahen is town). If there's a kill, we lynch whichever player I did not block. If there is no kill, we will still have 5 players left, which means we can lynch both Nightson and Fritzler anyway without too much concern (so scum can't no-kill to try to trick us into losing). The only way we lose is if Klebian isn't scum and I can't block a kill. And I'm banking on that not being the case. (By the way, if Klebian is lynched as town, I will more-or-less randomly determine who I decide to block, so that the scums can't try to outguess me.)
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Post Post #881 (isolation #147) » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:52 pm

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:
Glork wrote:2) I don't think that they have any abilities. I don't really have anything to back this up, but I just find it unlikely.
You consider having a "Godfather Ability" as an ability, don't you? Or do you just consider that a "perk"?
I was thinking in terms of actively used abilities. Yes, I do think that Klebian is a Godfather. So if you consider that an "ability" then I'd amend my previous statement.
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Post Post #883 (isolation #148) » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:38 pm

Post by Glork »

I think that his earlier hint-dropping is a huge plus for him, and I think that he's attempted to be much more helpful than either Nightson or Fritzler.
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Post Post #886 (isolation #149) » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:10 pm

Post by Glork »

Some interesting theories there, PJ. Did these just come to mind recently?

The only one I'd really give serious consideration to is the "Dahen might be a Space Monkey traitor" notion. I suppose we have to consider the possibility that scum might have recruited a traitor N4. That would certainly be throwing me in for a loop. I want to hear from Dahen on this matter.

I find the "separated SMs" theory unlikely based on a couple of things. Off the top of my head, I would have expected more crosskillings (or no-killings, if players were recruited) based on that theory, though I might be wrong on that point. Also, the "uninformed minority" versus "uninformed majority" -- even if the minority has a potential kill -- is not a mechanic that I think works very well, and I would not expect Stoof to make a setup like that. Then again, he's already pulled a fast one, so playing outguess the mod is probably not a terrific idea.

I also doubt that the scums were given a sample Townie PM. Like I indicated earlier in the game, Stoof traditionally gives a Townie win condition, but I certainly don't expect him to give them any more information by which they could easily "confirm" themselves. We've had enough trouble discerning scum from town as is, and giving the sucms the ability to quote soldier-ness and traitor-esque flavor/clauses is a little overboard, IMO.

Now that I think about it, I suppose a very clever SM-Dahen might have gone "Hmm, I bet the townspeople all think that they're Traitors. I'll drop hints as if I'm one, too." But my gut is telling me that this is not the case. No offense to Dahen, but I don't think he's that clever; it's something I might have seen from, say, CES... but not Dahen.


There are two other things that make me think that Dahen is probably town. First of all, he hasn't played as though he's pseudo-confirmed, which is what I'd expect a scumbag to do. In his most recent analysis, for example, he included his own voting/posting records in his most recent analysis. His play also vaguely reminds me of Mini 358, the last game we were in together. His most recent post in particular reminds me of the way he would talk with Devo and myself, when he *was* a confirmed innocent.
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Post Post #887 (isolation #150) » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:57 pm

Post by Glork »

Unvote


I want to think about this more.
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Post Post #890 (isolation #151) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:49 am

Post by Glork »

Uh... the whole "MC impersonating the enemy" thing was a play on the fact that he claimed to be a Space Monkey when he was Gorilla and we were asking him which one he was.



At least, that's the way I've interpreted it this whole time.



Here's the line, for reference:
Stoof wrote:Not much is known about the training that officers receive at the Gorilla's Officer Training School, but it obviously includes impersonating the enemy. Perhaps they should introduce reading into the curriculum?
The last line/question indicates that MC's play was a rather significant mistake, I think, and that Stoof was poking a fun at him for not reading what was going on.
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Post Post #891 (isolation #152) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:49 am

Post by Glork »

The idea of a backup cop makes much more sense to me; as Dahen indicated, the rank Ensign is now Second Lieutenant, which fits a backup Cop role.
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Post Post #892 (isolation #153) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:57 am

Post by Glork »

Hm... what if MC was a vig? It might explain why he still thought he was scum (either a separated Gorilla killing people off, or maybe he thought he was an SK). It would also give credibility to the existence of a Space Monkey Doctor.
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Post Post #894 (isolation #154) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:27 am

Post by Glork »

I'm confused. What does inHim have to do with Speedy being a red herring?
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Post Post #896 (isolation #155) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:30 pm

Post by Glork »

Oh, I see.


Hm. Good point.
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Post Post #898 (isolation #156) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:23 pm

Post by Glork »

PJ, what are your thoughts on the current situation?
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Post Post #900 (isolation #157) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:40 pm

Post by Glork »

Questions for everyone:

In your opinion, what possible fesable explanations can explain for the lack of an N4 kill? Which of these do you find the most likely at this point?

What possible roles do you think MC might have had? Which of these do you find to be the most likely at this point?
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Post Post #910 (isolation #158) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:31 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:If you blocked Klebian on Night Four, and during that same night there were no kills, why did you pursue Masterchief all of Day Four? Your actions are not aligning with the suspicions you've shown in the game with the information you claim to have had.
As I said, I defautled to Doc-protection in this game. In Best of the Internet, I was a roleblocker and erroneously relied on my role/ability, which just led me to far more confusion than helping. That was my only experience as a (pro-town) roleblocker up to this point, and it weighed very heavily on my mind. Perhaps I went a little too far to the other extreme in my caution. Add to this the fact that I was trying to figure out what the hell was going on with the setup, and I thought to myself, "If I'm a pro-town Roleblocker, I don't want to jump to any conclusions unless I'm fairly certain that I actually have significant, damning evidence against somebody." And that didn't happen until today, when I realized there wasn't a Doc in the setup.
PJ wrote:Did you leave any crumbs whatsoever as to whether or not your "role-blocking" targets affected your positions on anybody? Did you ever once crumb any of your targets whatsoever?
No, I didn't breadcrumb any of my targets. It has never occurred to me to do so. And even if I had thought about breadcrumbing, I seriously doubt that I would have done so while I thought I was scum. I likely would've been thinking that I was giving the town more information than the scums.
petroleumjelly wrote:Nowhere did Glork really mention the lack of CES-hammer as a "reason" for finding Klebian suspicious whatsoever on Day Four - the day
after
he claimed to have blocked Klebian (and even though that is the
reason
he is now giving for having "blocked" Klebian).
Though you're right in that I didn't mention it explicitly, in my last post of D3 (Post 515), I once again accused Klebian of being scum even after understanding the alignment situation. The reason for this was my hesitation to hammah CES and his sudden "understanding" when Thok suggested that he was in the informed minority. That's why, even after realizing "hey, I'm pro-town," I still went after Klebs. No, I didn't specify exactly why; but it's evident that
after
I realized that Space Monkeys were scum, I
still
thought that Klebian was scum for
some reason
. In parrotting Thok's comment, I was agreeing with him that Klebian's defense of CES seemed reasonable for a scumbuddy, if few people "get" what's going on.

And as for why I went after MC the next day: he was simply hitting my scumdar much,
much
more during the next day. His play was scummy, and it was terrible. I don't regret having gone after him because of how certain I was that he was scum -- yes, even in spite of the lack fo a kill N4 and my having blocked somebody else. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand; I went after the player I felt was most likely to be scum. Which, though you may find it hard to believe, was
NOT
Klebian at the time.


Question, PJ: If you think that I made up the claim (and spent a significant amount of time thinking about it, as you indicated), what reasons can you find for me choosing Klebian as my fake target rather than Fritzler or Nightson? Why would the logical choice be for me to choose to go after
Klebian
, who was ultimately investigated as an innocent?
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Post Post #911 (isolation #159) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:33 am

Post by Glork »

EBWODP:
Glork wrote:The reason for this was
his
hesitation to hammah CES and his sudden "understanding" when Thok suggested that he was in the informed minority.
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Post Post #914 (isolation #160) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:20 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:PPE: Actually, you probably meant set-up in terms of power roles, but if that's the case, your post was badly worded, considering the most confusing part of the set-up for most players was by far the Space-Monkey/Gorilla twist.
That is in fact what I meant.

PJ wrote:
Glork wrote:And even if I had thought about breadcrumbing,
I seriously doubt that I would have done so while I thought I was scum.
Considering you "understood perfectly" the twist, the second half of this should not have been a problem for you. You
didn't
think you were scum, and as such you
should
have made it clear you hade some inside information on Klebian.
What are you talking about? I was referring to earlier in the game, for my Nights 1-3 choices...
when I thought I was gorilla
scum
.
Like I said, it never occurred to me to breadcrumb at all, and I
PJ wrote:Some questions:
1.) How did you expect the town to know that you had role-blocked Klebian if you had been nightkilled before this point? Or that you had any information against Klebian whatsoever?
2.) Did you ever breadcrumb the fact that you were a traitor?
1) I didn't expect to be nightkilled, especially after Thok claimed. I figured that the scums would be going after investigated innocents, so unless I was investigated, I didn't feel as though I was in any danger. Had Thok investigated me, I might have claimed and mentioned that I had blocked Klebs on Night Four. I figured that both me and my information were perfectly safe, given the game-state.
2) No... I didn't. I wasn't sure if any of the scums knew about me or not. I wasn't sure if the setup was something like in Covert Ops, where a Leader knows his people's identities. I didn't know if I was an old-fashioned "if you get targeted, you get recruited" traitor. I don't generally like breadcrumbing in general anyway. I can't actually recall doing it any time other than as a mason. Not as a Doc; not even as a Cop. Dropping hints can be picked up by the enemy just as easily as they can the town, and I don't like giving out information that I want kept hidden.

PJ wrote:1.) WIFOM purposes. Obviously.
2.) If you claimed to have this information on either Fritzler or Nightson, I would have lynched you immediately. Having damning evidence against
uninvestigated players
for
three days in a row
before saying or hinting at
anything
is something I
would not
believe.

Your only saving grace here is that Klebian was investigated the night afterwards, which could potentially explain why you have hesitated to claim anything up until this point.
I'm somewhat dismissing 1), as I was looking for something that didn't fall into WIFOM territory. If I were going for the win by getting the town to mislynch, I wouldn't rely solely on getting a massive WIFOM to work -- especially as I have a reputation for doing unorthodox things just because they are odd. 2), however, makes a lot of sense. I can't say that I would have thought of that, but that's at least the kind of response I was looking for.


To answer VitaminR: I looked over the thread early the next day, and I was less confident about Klebian as I had been earlier. Kleb didn't really fit the "lurky" description that I expected SMs to be employing. I also decided that, although his defense of CES was consistent with scum, it also made sense as somebody who thought he would protect a pro-town player to look good in the town's eyes -- something that Klebian himself mentioned he was intending to do at the time. Basically, I felt that Kleb's actions were consistent as either scum or as town, and the rest of his play didn't ping enough to make me follow my possible role-based information at the time.
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Post Post #918 (isolation #161) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:02 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:
Glork wrote:Like I said, it never occurred to me to breadcrumb at all, and I wouldn't have done so pre-revelation even if it had occurred to me.
Care to finish that sentence?
Sorry, that was just a reiteration of my earlier statement.




Also, PJ, you're getting the chronology of my stance towards Klebian messed up:

Pre-revelation, I figured he was SM-town.
After Thok basically claimed and Klebs defended CES, I thougth Klebs was scum. Subsequently, I targeted him N4.
Very early in D4, I decided that maybe Klebs wasn't scum, as I felt his actions were consistent with a GorillaScum, too. I was neutral in my stance towards him.
Partway into the day (during my 'analysis' of every player), after examining Kleb's posts much more carefully, I decided he was scum once again.
After Thok got an innocent result, I abandoned that entire train of thought.
Yesterady, as we started discussing the possibility of not having a Doc, Klebs slid back up my list as a possible GF role.
Today, I'm reasonably sure that he is scum.



Vote: Klebian
, by the way.
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Post Post #919 (isolation #162) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:03 am

Post by Glork »

EBWODP: "...as I felt his actions were consistent with GorillaTown, too."


This game sucks. :P
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Post Post #921 (isolation #163) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:15 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:
PJ wrote:Now you're doing the same thing Klebian was doing. If you honestly thought "Traitors are recruited if they are targeted by scum", explain to me exactly how Gorillas were consantly being nightkilled? Did you just think the scum groups continually missed their kills and that there was a Vigilante who kept shooting down scum?
Answer this.
I didn't know (or think that I knew) how Traitors were being treated.
As I said earlier, I was trying to figure out how the Gorilla group worked:
Glork, Post 914 wrote:No... I didn't. I wasn't sure if any of the scums knew about me or not. I wasn't sure if the setup was something like in Covert Ops, where a Leader knows his people's identities. I didn't know if I was an old-fashioned "if you get targeted, you get recruited" traitor.
Part of the reason that I didn't know was
BECAUSE
two Gorillas had died at night.
PJ wrote:I don't believe this. You blocked him on a night where you thought he was scum: and then there were no Nightkills. And then you decided your stance was
neutral
towards him?
Yes. I went against my role information and changed my mind. I already mentioned why I was hesitant to rely on my blocking ability. And MC was hitting my 'dar much more at the time.
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Post Post #925 (isolation #164) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:29 pm

Post by Glork »

N2 and N3, gorillas were killed and I still thought I was GorillaScum. That's what I was referring to.
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Post Post #928 (isolation #165) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:22 am

Post by Glork »

PJ wrote:Twito never voted for Nightson... CES never voted for Nightson... Glork has only voted for Nightson when he was in little danger of being lynched...
Okay, here's the only problem I have with your idea on following voting records:

CES never voted for Klebian.
CES never voted for Fritz.
CES never voted for Dahen.
Twito never voted for Klebian.
Nightson never voted for Fritz.
Fritz never voted for Nightson.
Twito only voted for Fritz when he was in little danger of being lynched.
Nobody ever really voted for Dahen.
Dahen never voted for any remaining unconfirmeds (except his Page 2 random vote on Nightson).
Klebian did not vote for CES.
Nightson did not vote for CES.

The voting records are in fact consistent with Glork+Nightson/VitaminR as you present them. But they are also consistent with a whole host of other scumgroups: Klebian/Fritz, Fritz/Nightson, Klebian/Nightson, Anybody/Dahen.




I'm going to be very, very hard-pressed to lynch anybody but Klebian right now. I'm just dead-set in thinking that he's scum, and lynching him (in my mind, anyway) gives the best chance of finding his scumbuddy for the reasons outlined in my Post 877. If somebody can convince me that VitaminR, Fritzler, or Dahen is scum beyond like an 80% chance (since that's about how sure I am that Klebs is scum), I'll be persuaded to move my vote. Otherwise, I'm sticking with my guns.



Klebian, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the current situation. Who do you think is most likely to be scum right now? Who do you think is most likely to be their scumbuddy? If we were to lynch your top suspect as a Gorilla and have another day to lynch, who would be the other person on your short list?

When Fritz comes back from Mardi Gras, I'd like to hear him answer the same questions. I would also like him to answer my earlier questions from Post 900:
Glork wrote:Questions for everyone:

In your opinion, what possible fesable explanations can explain for the lack of an N4 kill? Which of these do you find the most likely at this point?

What possible roles do you think MC might have had? Which of these do you find to be the most likely at this point?
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Post Post #930 (isolation #166) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:30 am

Post by Glork »

Would you care to respond to my post with something other than banter and rhetoric? I don't like that you're still accusing me of being scum, and if I make a point to defend myself from an accusation (whether directly or by association), I'd like you to address that point directly.



Also, what do you think happened N4? I don't think you ever actually gave a definitive response. Nor did you answer my question about Masterchief.
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Post Post #932 (isolation #167) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:45 am

Post by Glork »

So you're not going to jump to a conclusion on something you see as ambiguous with regards to night actions, but you are going to jump to a conclusion with regards to voting records, even though I just demonstrated that your chosen conclusion is far from exclusive.



Got it.
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Post Post #934 (isolation #168) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:24 am

Post by Glork »

See, the problem I have with you, PJ, is that I feel like you're choosing to examine evidence and clues to the extent and from a perspective that crams them to fit with whatever theory or suspicion you
want
to believe, out of obstinance and stubborness. I felt that way when, after you claimed, you insinuated that I was a scum roleblocker, completely ignoring the fact that any non-brainded scum RB would have been blocking Thok starting N4, and I'm getting the exact same feeling now.


I'd like to examine your listed possibilities for the lack of an N4 kill, one by one:
PJ wrote:1.) There are multiple things which could have stopped a kill on Night 4.
--> A.) Masterchief's role
--> B.) An unclaimed role (such as Doctor)
--> C.) A latent ability [such as something in Thok's role, MC's role, other's role]
--> D.) Purposeful no-kill
--> E.) Missed night-kill
--> F.) Redirected night-kill
--> G.) Instead of killing, Space Monkeys may have recruited somebody
--> H.) Blocked night-kill
A) Distinctly possible. As you said, we don't know what MC's role was. Still, it would require that you expect MC to have a role that could be responsible for
B) Highly unlikely. If there were a Doctor, they'd have a really freaking hard time explaining why they didn't protect Thok last night. And any claimed Doctor who claimed to miss the protection altogether would fall under my "Drunky McDrinksalot" category, as there wasn't even a deadline for night choices or anything last night.
C)
Very
unlikely that Thok had a latent ability; I think he would have mentioned or hinted at it if so, unless it was possibly a one-shot nightkill immunity -- which is something that you yourself seemed to reject earlier in the day.
D) Also
highly
unlikely. Scum have little-to-no reason to nightkill at that stage in the game. If anything, they would at least take a shot at Thok. If there was a Doc, they'd get the same end-result. If not, they'd kill the Cop. There doesn't seem to be any feasable explanation as to why the scums would choose to No-Kill N4. If you can think of one, though, I'm all ears.
E) Also highly unlikely. As I pointed out earlier, every unconfirmed had posted within like 36 hours of either the end of D3 or the start of D4. Though it's possible, I doubt that the scums would have missed the kill, considering we know that Twito was active around the time, and all the other players were also active.
F) A redirected Nightkill would still have resulted in a death
somewhere
, unless you intend to combine F with another option. F in and of itself is not a feasable option.
G) Also possible. In this case, that would point to Dahen more than anybody else, using your own logic. You questioned why I didn't drop any Traitor-hints, indicating that you thought that traitors would likely drop hints. Well a Space Monkey Traitor would be just as likely to drop traitor hints than anybody else. This could also point to you, incidentally, as you also dropped traitor hints. In that case, Traitors would have to show up as Gorillas pre-recruting (such as how Traitors showed up innocent pre-recruiting in Cadmium's Normal 51).
H) Ooh, that's me! Distinctly possible.


So, out of your listed possibilities, I find only A, G, and H to be the only real possibilities. I want you to go more in-depth, PJ. What do you think of my analyses of these possibilities? Why are you so hesitant to actually examine these possibilities in an analytical light? You seem
afraid
(or, at the very least, highly unwilling) to actually consider them, to actually look at how much they make sense if they hold true.

This is
exactly
what I see as more evidence that you're bringing up possibilities only to the extent that they suit your current desires. If you thought through these possibilities to their most logical conclusions, you'd find that most of the explanations you've presented are
not
fesasable. They're all
possible
, but I sincerely doubt that you think many of them are in any way likely. That's why, when I asked what everybody thought about N4, I wanted to know what option(s) they thought to be
the most likely.


Your attitude towards this whole "N4" thing is very, *VERY* unlike what I'm used to seeing from you. Usually in clutch situations, you'll examine every possibilty with the utmost in scrutiny. Here, you're choosing to pass this whole situation off because you can't
know
what happened. I don't get it. I really just don't get it.
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Post Post #935 (isolation #169) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:26 am

Post by Glork »

Dammit, I keep doing that:
Glork wrote:A) Distinctly possible. As you said, we don't know what MC's role was. Still, it would require that you expect MC to have a role that could be responsible for stopping the N4 kill. Such as a Doctor (which I already mentioned is unlikely, as Ensigns don't have any medical expertise) or Roleblocker (which has in fact been brought up as a possibility).
I meant to come back to this, as I wanted to address the other points while I was writing out this one. I simply forgot to do so.
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Post Post #940 (isolation #170) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:05 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:3.) Do NOT use the burden of "diligence" on me EVER AGAIN. I am sick and freakin' tired of it.
All I'm saying is that I wish you would examine the evidence you present more closely. Saying "all of these are possible, so I'm not going to jump to conclusions" is not the least bit effective if one can show (as I just did) that most of these "possibilities" are highly unlikely.
PJ wrote:It is mostly gut, and I will scrape up whatever dirt I can to try and get you lynched at this point.
Okay, at least I know my "PJ is trying to look at evidence the way he wants to fit his theory" notion was right. Gut is not an invalid tool (and quite frankly, I'm surprised that you didn't mention gut earlier), but it shouldn't overwhelm your vision of the game as a whole.
PJ wrote:Your claim is convenient, your claim is untimely, your claim is not consistent with your actions
It may be "convenient," but I think that it was approrpiate to hold back, given the earlier game-state (and, consequently, I disagree with your accustion that my claim was untimely).
I explained why I didn't think that I needed to claim: I expected the scums to go after confirmed innocents as long as Thok was alive and getting more information.
I explained why I followed the train of thought that I did, and I tried to make clear the chronology of my sentiments towards Klebian. You never really addressed that point after I explained how I thought your version of my chronology was mixed up. If it amounts to "I don't believe that you felt that way," fine. State that.
PJ wrote:your play has been consistently bad
Ah, the burden of proficiency. I'm not even going to say any more on that one.
PJ wrote:you "understood" the twist of the game much too soon
Along with 2-3 other players, as I seem to remember explaining earlier? You didn't get it. Numerous other players indicated that they did get it, Dahen, Klebian, and Nightson included.
PJ wrote:your questions towards me/MC seemed trappish, your attack on MC rubbed me the wrong way (I especially did not like your "I am so good at this game" comment while you're effectively beating up on somebody who obviously cannot defend himself very well)
They weren't intended as trappish. They were intended to make you think 'wait a second... maybe I'm not scum afterall." Also, your argument about my "so good at this game" comment is absurd. Because I never jokingly proclaim my awesomeness when I've found scum, right? :roll:
PJ wrote:you did not hint at being at a Traitor
All of three players (PJ, Zindie, Dahen) hinted at being a Traitor. I think that shows that tratior-hinting is
NOT
something that you should have expected Gorillas to do.
PJ wrote:you claim to have been "confused" while at the same time displaying confidence
I was confident that the Gorillas were scum and that the Space Monkeys were town by partway through D3. Pre-revelation, I was not confident that I knew how the "Gorilla Scumgroup" worked. Afterwards, I was not confident about the setup with regards to power distribution. I don't see how this is inconsistent.
PJ wrote:you have been trying to draw connections to people
the entire game
instead of hunting for single scum
Do I have to go start listing games where I focus at least as much on finding scum groups or pairings as on finding individual scums? I do not want to have to do that. I think I employ both strategies equally. I can think of a couple of currently running games where I go scumgroup-hunting, but I can't really cite those. Past ones, off the top of my head, are Sesame Street and Graduation.

PJ wrote:I hope you're not insinuating that I am trying to in any way "protect" Klebian.
No. I was insinuating that perhaps you were going out of your way to get me lynched on completely unreasonable grounds. Irritated OMGUS sentiment more than anything else. It had just occurred to me that if scums needed one mislynch, lynching the Roleblocker probably guarantees their victory, whereas lynching another player leaves the possibility of me blocking a kill still. However, as I hadn't suspected you, I guess that doesn't really make much sense, as you would just make the kill and you+buddy would win anyway. So nevermind that.
The other reason is that I just wanted you to look at the broader perspective in a much more critical light. It just bothered me that you would bring up so many possibilities which are completely ridiculous.
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Post Post #943 (isolation #171) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:21 pm

Post by Glork »

PJ, I didn't block Fritz Night 5. I blocked Klebian again.



Try getting your facts straight. :roll:
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Post Post #945 (isolation #172) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:32 pm

Post by Glork »

And now to reply to the rest of your post:
petroleumjelly wrote:Also, no: your scum-pair play this game is completely different than usual.

For example... you began the game giving scum-pairings. Here's what I'm seeing:

Night One:
Glork claims to block InHim.
Day One:
Maybe MBL + PJ are scum-partners!
Night Two:
MBL dies, comes up Gorilla. Glork claims to block PJ.
Day Two:
I was right! Attack PJ! Also, maybe Zindie + PJ are scum-partners!
Of course D1 and D2 are going to be a little different. I thought I was scum then. Even then, I would argue that my play was *NOT* inconsistent with my past play. I attacked MBL and Ibbs/PJ for different reasons, and concluded that they were both scum (together). I did not begin my theory based on a scum-pairing. The Zindie+PJ was based on that, but I had the fact that MBL died as a gorilla to back me up.

PJ wrote:
Day Three:
I was right! Attack PJ! Oh wait, guess I have to vote for CES. But maybe Klebian or PJ are scum!
I addressed this already. I attacked you
before
the revelation, and I mentioned that I wanted to lynch Klebian both before and after the revelation.
PJ wrote:
Day Four:
I was right! Klebian is scum, because I blocked him last night after calling him scum and there were no nightkills!


Oh WAIT. That
never happened
. Imagine! Instead, what we have is this:

Day Four:
Despite the fact that I suspect Klebian, and I blocked him last night, and there were no kills, let's lynch Masterchief! After all, he is arguably the absolute easiest person to lynch in the entire game, and the most likely person to not be paying attention whatsoever!
I have also addressed this. I was very hesitant to rely on my block, and I had simply changed my mind about my late-D3 suspicion of Klebian.
PJ wrote:We also have this:
Glork wrote:Twito hasn't really struck me either way.
This is
classic
scum-analyzing-their-own-partner rhetoric. After all, maybe if you don't comment on them, nobody will notice!
You have to take into consideration the context in which I said that about Twito. It was when he and MC were going at it. I was sure that MC was scum, and I explained that I did not expect MC-scum to go down attacking his scumbuddy. Prior experience tells me that MC-scum attacks townspeople when he's on the verge of being lynched.
PJ wrote:Glork then says the people he most wants to look at are:

{Nightson, StD, Klebian, Twito}

Night Five:
Glork claims to role-block FRITZLER. Guess what?
THIS WAS NOT ONE OF THE
FOUR
PLAYERS GLORK WAS SUSPICIOUS OF AT THE END OF DAY FOUR.
I explained this already. I blocked Klebian N5.
PJ wrote:In fact, his specific quote near the end of Day Four:
Glork wrote:Still pretty sure that both MC and Nightson should be dead ASAP.
Why gee? Why didn't Glork
block
Nightson if he thought he was scum? I can't
possibly
imagine!
Because I wanted to test the Klebian block again? Durrr.

PJ wrote:
Night Six:
Despite the fact that Glork had blanketed Fritz, Nightson, or Twito as scum, Glork claims to have role-blocked Nightson.
Also incorrect. I blocked Fritz that night. I don't see why this is an issue, though, as I named both Fritz and Nightson as possible scums at that point.
PJ wrote:
Day Seven:
As soon as Day Opens, Glork suddenly remembers that he blocked Klebian on Night Four, a night with no kills, and pushes for a lynch.
This is a
GROSS
misrepresentation. I didn't "suddenly remember" that I had blocked Klebs. I suddenly realized that there wasn't a Doctor in the setup. Do
NOT
twist my words or actions like that.
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Post Post #946 (isolation #173) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:33 pm

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:Question:

Why did you block Klebian again if you thought he was Gorilla Town? Either way, your actions don't make sense.
I DID NOT THINK HE WAS TOWN. HE WAS NEUTRAL IN MY EYES AT THAT POINT. STOP CHANGING MY STANCE TO TURN IT INTO WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE.


I'm done posting for the night. I don't like posting when I'm angry, and I'm becoming
very
frustrated. This debate will have to continue some other time.
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Post Post #947 (isolation #174) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:36 pm

Post by Glork »

EBWODP: Not even really neutral at that point. I was once again leaning towards him being scum, as indicated by my analysis during the day.
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Post Post #949 (isolation #175) » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:41 pm

Post by Glork »

But the reasons are completely different. I'm getting frustrated right now because you're A) getting facts wrong and B) completely ignoring what I've said with regards to my stance on other players.

I do not like getting lynched at all. Ever. But I would be irate and appalled if I get lynched on such horrendous and blatantly wrong attacks.
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Post Post #960 (isolation #176) » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:05 am

Post by Glork »

PJ wrote:Blatantly wrong attacks?
Yes. When you attack me because my N5 block of Fritzler makes no sense, your attack is inherently flawed. Regardless of whether I were lying or not, I did not block Fritzler N5. When you attacked me for the inconsistency of thinking Klebian was Pro-Town at the end of D4, your argument was equally flawed. If you're going to base your attacks on trying to point out contradictions in my actions and words, you
cannot
blatantly misstate what I thought or did.

Now, if you do not think that I had that stance to begin with, you should be attempting to undermine
that
point, not attacking me for something I never said. That is what was upsetting me; you seemed to be doing it over and over again, and I got the distinct impression that you weren't paying attention to what I was saying at all. You were just spouting words and going "Glork's scum, Glork's scum, Glork's scum!! DIEDIEDIE!"
PJ wrote:Care to explain this statement? You claim to have come this conclusion regardless of the fact that you do not have a Gorilla Soldier role.

Tell me. Were you told if you were a Traitor? Were you told if you were lost? Were you told if you could be recruited? Were you told if you had weapons? I want to see a better paraphrase of what you're claiming.
I was basically told that, in the confusion on the ship's bridge, I had gotten separated from the other Gorillas. I was told that I had gotten lost, but I was not explicitly told that Gorillas were searching for me. I was also told that I had no weapons. However, having special officer training, I had the ability to convince other primates to stand down and take no action at night.

I thought about the possibility of me being a regular "Traitor," and that's actually what I defaulted to. However, with (then) recent games such as Committee Mafia and Covert Ops Mafia weighing heavily on my mind, sometime during D2, I began to lose the certainty that I was a "Traitor."

After the claim, when you said that you were "waiting to be found" by the Gorillas, I completely disassociated my role with Traitor/Soldier; I equated those two terms exclusively. When I said "if I'd had a Traitor/Solider role," I meant the traditional powerless Traitor role. I don't really think of a "Mafia Roleblocker who doesn't know his allies' identities" as being a "Traitor," especially considering I didn't know whether anybody was actively searching for me.
Klebian wrote:Glork:
Why do you think thok was not killed night 5?
Why do you think he was not killed night 6?
Here's what I think happened:
N4, the Mafia targets Thok. He survives. They decide that Thok was probably doc-protected, so they start looking elsewhere.
D4, Thok claims a bunch of innocent results, and the scums start targeting them, possibly hoping to hit a Doctor.
On N7, they probably decided that they had to take another shot at Thok, no the off-chance that the non-death was not caused by a Doctor. As it turns out, it seems as though they were right.
Klebian wrote:Oh, and:
Glork wrote:Along with 2-3 other players, as I seem to remember explaining earlier? You didn't get it. Numerous other players indicated that they did get it, Dahen, Klebian, and Nightson included.
Nope. Wrong.
Erm... you indicated that you understood before the end of Day Three. Unless I got PJ's definition of "getting it too early" wrong, I do think you fall into that category.


Dahen: I think that Klebian was saying "which is true" to "PJ doesn't believe Glork is an RB." That seems to be the most logical explanation to me, anyway.
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Post Post #963 (isolation #177) » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:10 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:Glork, read through Nightson/VitaminR. Tell me what you think.
Two exams on Wednesday; that will have to come until later this week.
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Post Post #970 (isolation #178) » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:47 pm

Post by Glork »

klebian wrote:I believe that this quote of mine has been horribly misinterpreted.
klebian wrote:Well, day 3 has convinced me to take on a different mindset for the rest of the game.
What I meant here was, I have been convinced to take on a different mindset regarding wagoning. I could've freely hammered CES, but I decided not to because I didn't like the case against him. However, when someone else freely hammered him, I was convinced that I would not feel any shame in hammering anyone for the rest of the game.
I mentioned you understanding "before the end of the day" waaaaaay back on Day Four (Post 686). Why did you not correct me back then?

petroleumjelly wrote:Post 494, Thok definitely gives off the impression that he was aware of Traitor roles looking to be recruited (direct reference to Verbose 2 Mafia). Thok also had a power role, and Glork is claiming to be a power role, except he is claiming that he was
not
told of the ability to be recruited by scum..
Thok did not in any way say or indicate that he was told of the ability to be recruited. Given the same information, I find it absolutely reasonable that Thok would arrive at the "Traitor who gets recruited" conclusion whereas I would not. Thok was not in Covert Ops Mafia, and he was not in Committee Mafia. I wouldn't expect him to deviate from the traditional idea of being a Traitor, even given the exact same role PM wording. Do you feel strongly otherwise?

dahen wrote:But I have two problems with you Glork:
1. You have stated several times that Ensigns can't possibly be docs. With the certainty of which you've said that, I'm surprised that you didn't claim as soon as MC's role was revealed. Because at that point you must have thought that you had nailed Klebian as scum, right?
This doesn't make any sense.
I thought that an Ensign couldn't possibly be a Doc. This means that I
still thought that there was a Doc out there somewhere
. I don't understand how you're making the jump from "Ensign is not a Doc" to "There is no Doc in the setup."
dahen wrote:2. Your recent more detailed claim. I am not going to point out any details, but it simply matches my own quite badly.
Oh? This piques my interest greatly. Please point out the differences you see between my claimed flavor and the flavor you claim to have in your role PM.
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Post Post #974 (isolation #179) » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:42 pm

Post by Glork »

Okay, I'm sick of studying, so I'm taking a break to do a PBPA on Nightson. Posting thoughts as they come to me, then I'll reflect in a subsequent section/post.


Nightson evidently didn't have much grounding in his initial posts. His first post was part of the Page 1 MBL-wagon. His next several posts came a few days later, and none of them seemed very serious. He voted Phoebus, called Glork/Phoebus scum, switched to StD, then spammed "OMG SCUMZORZ" at me.

Post 120 is the first post of interest to me; he tells MBL that "jokes aren't scummy" after MBL had accused him of being scum for accusing me of being scum. I actually find MBL's stance more strange than Nightson's. I am a jokester, and I certainly do not find them to be scummy. Furthermore, I always thought of MBL as a mild prankster himself, so when he says "one joke is ignorable, two is significant," I don't put much weight into that.

Post 124 == red flag. Nightson seems to go beyond just "what, I was making harmless spam" to insinuating that he was trying to get discussion going. Nine out of ten times, I hate that kind of attitdue, and this is no exception. The "it's not my fault nobody commented on my StD vote" is also a bit odd.

After like 10 days of forum downtime, Nightson seems to shape up. I don't think this indicative of anything except possibly that he was just feeling spammy earlier

Post 176, he pressures Bird for not defending himself and instead choosing to defend me. States he doesn't think inHim is scum, and holds a mild suspicion of StD. Reasons would have been nice, but long-winded explanations have never been Nightson's MO.

Raises suspicion level of inHim, but maintains that he wants to keep pressure on Bird.

Post 244: Unexplained jump to MBL. Whatever happened to pressuring Bird until he moved his vote?

...and Post 260 provides an answer. Can't really argue with Nightson's stance there... still doesn't explain why he's voting MBL, though

Post 291 seems quite "meh," as Nightson offers a very weak defense for himself.

Hammers Bird in 308 about 12 hours before deadline. I guess Lynch > No Lynch...

Post 367: Doesn't like wagons on PJ, inHim.

No other posts on D2. No posts on D3.

Pops in early in D4 to say he understands the revelation in Post 529.

Post 603, votes for MC after MC claims to be a Space Monkey, saying he did something similar in Dr. Who Mafia.
Remind me to go check Dr. Who to see what exactly Nightson did.


...and once again, Nightson provides in his next post (622. Okay, so what I'm getting from this is that Nightson did in fact do the *EXACT* same thing when confused about alignments. He claimed to be a "good guy" character, not realizing that everybody knew that "good guys" were scum. Oops.

Post 645, "I was gone and couldn't log on."
Cross-referencing Nightson's posting habits (All on-site posts by Nightson) with the time period during which D3 lasted (Dec 28 to Jan 03), I see that Nightson didn't make a single post on MS during that time. So that seems to check out.

And then Nightson is sick, which I absolutely won't doubt.

One more relevant post, Post 749. He basically says that he thinks Glork did one thing scummy by casting suspicion on PJ. He says he's bad at number-crunching, and he says he finds Fritzler to be most suspicious.

One more "I'll try to post" post, and then boom. He's gone.
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Post Post #975 (isolation #180) » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:08 pm

Post by Glork »

Even with the illness, it seems like Nightson posted less in this game than in most (though not all) of his other games, when I look at the "all posts by Nightson" page. He gave the most attention to Two-Headed Mafia, but he neglected several of his games. I don't know that I can draw any definitive conclusions from this.

What I
can
gather is that, before midway through D2, Nightson seemed fairly active. After his Post 367 on Dec 15, his activity dropped off dramatically. I don't know what to make of that other than "Nightson went away, then came back and was sick."


At this point, PJ, I really don't understand why you think Nightson/VitR are scum. There's one thing I find out-of-the-ordinary about Nightson, and that's his "I suck at reading Glork, and I'm bad at number-crunching" comments in his last substantial posts. It does feel like Nightson was trying to get people to not want to ask or rely on his opinion.
Everything else I picked up on was from D1, when Nightson may or may not have thought he was GorillaScum. Nevertheless, Nightson
does
fit the bill of "reasonably lurky," which is what I would have expected from SMs pre-revelation.


Basically, my conclusion, PJ: Based on Nightson's posts so far, I find it entirely possible that he's scum, but not enough to put him ahead of Friztler or Dahen right now, and certainly not enough to put him above Klebian. I will look at VitaminR's posts later. And I plan on examining Fritzler's and Dahen's posts before I even attempt to come to a decision as to who I think Kleb's scumbuddy might be. We're not in any hurry, so I'd like to do this right.
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Post Post #979 (isolation #181) » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:21 am

Post by Glork »

VitaminR PBPA:

First indicates that he's read the day's posts and that my claim "seems credible." Wants to read over everything before making decision.

Post 871: Doesn't like Glork's attacks on MC, but can't think of plausable reason for lack of N4 kill. First to bring up idea of MC as backup to Lieutenant (I think), and openly rejects Ensign-Doc possibility. Wants to talk things over first. Seems like even though he can't think of another reason for no N4 kill, he wants to talk things over and make sure he hasn't missed anything. Sensible stance, but not necessarily indicative of being pro-town.


Post 873: 1-2 (likely 2) scum; neutral about lynch/no-lynch -- Glork likely nightkilled, makes Kleb lynch more sound, last lynch difficult; indicates he has not been told of a roleblock (and claims Soldier in the process)

Post 889 -- agrees with dahen on Ensign-Roleblocker flavor. Isn't sure why MC would claim to be a roleblocker, though, instead of vanilla SM.

Post 903: Finds roleblock, one-shot NK immunity, and "something else" to be most likely explanations for no N4 kill; thinks MC may have been RB, backup, or doc -- strongly indicates that he thinks it's Backup rather than RB/Doc. This bothers me a little, as VitR seems to waffle between wanting to go after Klebian (and believing me) to thinking MC may have been an RB (which would indicate that he thought I was scum and wanted to lynch me) to going back to thinking that Ensign was non-RB.

Becomes increasingly convinced that PJ is right about Glork, but still bothered by lack of N4 kill. Wants to know PJ's thoughts on N4.

Post 926 is one with which I actually agree. I can see a case against Nightson/VitR for the general lack of contribution or willingness to step out and take a stance, but I don't really like PJ's attack.

I like the explanation in the second paragraph of Post 936. PJ, did you ever address that point? If VitR is scum, then StD's near-lynch presents the exact same scenario which leads you to believe that VitR is
not
pro-town.

Post 971, he once again speculates on potential MC roles. He still seems likely against Doc or Roleblocker. He also once again asks PJ for "concrete" reasons to believe he is scum.



The one thing I'm getting from VitR is that he fluctuates a bit, especially with regards to MC's potential roles. I think that his defenses are appropriate given the nature of PJ's attacks. VitR seems to want to believe that my blocking of Klebian is responsible for the lack of an N4 kill, but he is unwilling to commit to a vote.
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Post Post #983 (isolation #182) » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:36 am

Post by Glork »

Ah, the ol' "It's me or him, and it's not me" logic. I never implied that one of us would have to be lynched today (in fact, PJ seems to be the one doing that)... I'm saying that I'm following my role information and the information I've dug up against you and concluding that you're scum.

I'm getting nothing more than OMGUS with some pretty crappy backing. Stay quiet, even state that you think you believe me but think I'm misguided, then at the end of the day, decide that I'm scum because I'm going after you, because no better mislynch alternative cameup.


As mole would say, "die suck die."
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Post Post #986 (isolation #183) » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:11 am

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:Hey, here's a thought. What else do expect klebian to do? Say "geez, I guess you're right, I must be scum according to your information so I guess I might as well vote myself"? No. In a situation where the town is probably in LyLo, I would fully expect that he would rather
suspect the person who has been pushing for his lynch the entire day on information he has claimed to have for three days but has not acted on that information until now
. It seems perfectly reasonable to
me
.
My point is that he has not really voiced any significant suspicions of me until just recently. He's let you sit here attacking me over and over again, and now since no alternatives came up, he's jumping aboard. I guarantee that if you had been pushing for VitaminR's lynch instead of mine, he'd be hopping aboard that. Klebian's taken on an "anyone but me" attitude, it seems.



PJ, could you explain the significance/meaning/intent behind your Post 961?
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Post Post #987 (isolation #184) » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:14 am

Post by Glork »

klebian wrote:
Fritzler wrote:
Glork wrote:Fritz: What flavor ice cream?
Neapolitan, but that dick that takes way more chocolate than vanilla and strawberry
Can someone explain to me what this post meant, or was it a joke?
It's an old running line from ScumChat back in the day.
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Post Post #989 (isolation #185) » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:30 am

Post by Glork »

Of course, PJ, you know that Klebs is going to hold fast in his Glork "suspicion" now. Switching over would be way too blatant a move, so unless he tries some crazy WIFOM, I doubt it'll happen. He'll go "No, I think Glork should die" and then you'll go "see, he really suspects you!" and then you'll switch back and we'll have accomplished.

I sortof think I know why, and I might even know why you're electing not to explain right now.

I still think we need to hear from Fritz and Dahen. I'm getting very tired of saying that.
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Post Post #998 (isolation #186) » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:49 am

Post by Glork »

I stand by everything I said. I was not told that I was being looked for by anybody. Indeed, I was told that I had lost
my
troops in the battle on the bridge. If you want anything more, I'm going to have to check with Stoof before posting anything; I'd rather not we lose because I get modkilled trying to prove my innocnece via flavor.
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Post Post #1003 (isolation #187) » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:20 am

Post by Glork »

I PMed Stoof, and he said that I was already pushing things as far as flavor goes. On top of that, I really can't see what glaring difference you're getting at. The only significant things I'm noticing are the "being lost/searched for" part, and the flavor behind getting separated. Without a Soldier PM, I don't know if there's any way I can see this discrepancy.

If you put together my detailed paraphrase with my most recent post, you should have a
very
good idea of what the wording of my role PM is (which is probably why Stoof said I'm edging the line). I'm afraid I can't give much else. *shrug*
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Post Post #1008 (isolation #188) » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:27 pm

Post by Glork »

Yeah, that wasn't really mentioned in my PM. Killing off the crew is mentioned in the win condition, but that's really the extent of it. *shrug*
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Post Post #1010 (isolation #189) » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:45 pm

Post by Glork »

Um... Killing the crew -> Space Monkeys die -> Win Condition. I referred to it as "Killing the crew"
because
I didn't want to toe the line with regards to flavor. :roll:
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Post Post #1012 (isolation #190) » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:47 pm

Post by Glork »

*because I wanted to toe the line. I was thinking "didn't want to cross the line."
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Post Post #1014 (isolation #191) » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:49 pm

Post by Glork »

petroleumjelly wrote:Bah, looks like my vote is on VitaminR, probably because I wanted to take away all chances of quicklynching if it was possible. Tum-de-tum.
No, your vote was in VitR because you wanted to "test" whether Kelbian would jump ship to VitaminR. Me not being scum likely implies that Klebs is scum, and considering he's already voting me, that takes away most of the possibility for a quick-lynch anyway.
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Post Post #1024 (isolation #192) » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:56 am

Post by Glork »

Fritzler wrote:not yet, i don't know who klebian's scum partner is if he's scum, where its much easier to figure out glork's scum buddy, which is the only thing saving me from voting klebian
Well, it's obviously not Glork+Fritz.

So it could be Glork+VitR or Klebian+Fritz/VitR. I still find Dahen very unlikely. His gears are obviously churning, and he's shown a vested interest in trying to confirm or condemn somebody, if at all possible, using flavor. If we take into account the possibility of scums having a sample PM or flavor, then Dahen isn't
strictly
cleared, but it could bring VitR into question.

At this point, if Klebian is lynched as scum, I'm definitely blocking VitR overnight. That way, if there's a death -- even if it's me, we'll know that he's cleared. If there is no death, we'll have 5 alive. That way, even if scums tried to no-kill, we still give ousrelves two shots to find the last scumbag.

If Klebian is lynched as a pro-town player, I will block one of VitR/Dahen, as protown Klebian obviously implies protown Fritz.
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Post Post #1025 (isolation #193) » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:58 am

Post by Glork »

Actually, no. Pro-town Kleb does not
necessarily
imply pro-town Fritz. If it's, say, Fritz+VitR, and Fritz hammers, I could still block a kill, so they haven't auto-won. I still don't find that terribly likely; I think that Fritz would probably have dropped the hammer and taken his chances overnight. I donno.
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Post Post #1029 (isolation #194) » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:37 pm

Post by Glork »

No, Klebian. I am not ruling out entirely the possibility that something else is responsible for the lack of an N4 kill. I just very strongly believe that it's due to my blocking of you.
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Post Post #1034 (isolation #195) » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:53 pm

Post by Glork »

Fritzler wrote:glork if klebian is scum who will you block?
Glork, Post 1024 wrote:At this point, if Klebian is lynched as scum, I'm definitely blocking VitR overnight.
This still holds true.


klebian wrote:Glork, go ahead and tell me again, what do you think MC's role was and why are you ruling THAT out of a possibility for lack of a n4 kill?
I think that it was Backup Cop. Again, I'm not ruling out the "possibility" of MC having a role that could stop a kill... I'm just stating that I don't think it's at all likely.
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Post Post #1036 (isolation #196) » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:18 pm

Post by Glork »

Yeah, you're probably right. Dahen's play still reminds me of the minigame we were in together. I guess I need to step back and reconsider some things, if VitR, Klebs, and Dahen were all able to provide accurate Soldier flavor.
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Post Post #1037 (isolation #197) » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:27 pm

Post by Glork »

The other thing I was thinking about some time ago is that if the Space Monkeys knew each other and realized that the Gorillas thought they were scum, they could likely predict that most (if not all) Gorillas would think of themselves as Traitors. Thus, a Space Monkey could drop Traitor hints in anticipation that Gorillas would think of themselves as Traitors.

I need to go back and read Dahen, I think. Dahen, could you please link me to any completed games where you were scum? I'd like some kind of frame of reference other than our previous minigame.
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Post Post #1041 (isolation #198) » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:17 am

Post by Glork »

Bah, those games aren't of any help whatsoever. Time to examine some Dahenposts.

Post 149 gives a reasonably accurate description of what's happened in the first six pages of the game. The only thing that I find a little disconcerting is that it took six pages for Dahen to step up and actually make a decent analysis.

Post 160 is his first hint, after some more forum downtime. Promises a re-read.

Post 197, he moves to Pooky and suggests that scums are waiting while the townies go after each other. Pooky replies by asking why he would want to sit back and wait as scum. Dahen never replies.

Post 224, Dahen laments that his vote change didn't spark any discussion... yet he never helped extend that discussion by responding to Pooky.

I replied to that post by asking why Dahen was protecting MrScumbuddyLee, and his response comes in 231. He pretty much states "I don't know if MBL is scum, I'm not protecting him." He also says basically "well, there are things to be gained from lynching MBL, but we could also get clues if we lynch elsewhere. I'm leaning towards the latter." Immediately afterwards, inHim correctly points out that Dahen was being pretty vague in that post. Not exactly a groundbreaking observation there.

Post 316 is his second traitor hint. He posts some stuff that I don't really understand/like, but he also was obviously posting from the perspective of a Gorilla. I can't tell if that perspective was feigned or not.

Goes along with PJ vote (citing others' mentioning of "double-distancing") then unvotes when PJ "puts up nicely."
He then takes a jab at CES, pointing out how CES hasn't really done anything or contributed. He asks CES to share a little more, but doesn't go as far as to vote CES for pressure or anything. Distancing? Possibly.

He makes one post on D3 (496) to vote CES after Thok tells us to go after CES. Definitely indicates that he knows what's going on by saying that he doesn't think there are two groups, but that there are other tricks going on.

He further indicates that he understands things when he asks CES if "everything [went] as planned." However, he also says that he's not sure "no kill" is something to be happy about because only Gorillas had died. This indicates that he didn't understand the backwardsness of alignment. Could you clarify this, dahen? At that point, did you know that SMs were scum or not? Did you figure that Thok had an investigative role?

Post 554 interests me, especially this part:
dahen wrote:The talk yesterday about informed minority made me believe that this turning point would come.
He says that the "informed minority" discussion led him to believe that a turning point would come. The wording seems to imply that he knew there would be a "turning point," and that his observation was along the lines of "Thok's discovery and discussion of an 'informed minority' rather than 'Gorillas' will lead to the turning point."
(Incidentally, the last line in dahen's post gave me an idea for a mechanic. *jots down*)

Post 614, he compliments SV on her post, reiterates that he doesn't think Klebian is cleared, and presents a theory that even he admits he found unlikely.

Post 626 is silent compliance with the MC lynch. MC complains that dahen is getting away with not even saying anything, even though MC would never be able to do that.

Post 742, he threatens to hammer Nightson but gives him another chance to pop back into the thread. Possible Dahen-VitR connection noted.

Explains his absence in Post 816 and mentions Mini 358. States that he's done a cursory read of recent posts and hasn't found anything particularly scummy.

Next few posts are vote analyses; ultimately concludes that Nightson might be scum and FoSes him in 845 while helping to finish Twito off.

FoS with intent to vote in Post 867 after my claim. He wants Nightson to pop in, though. Is it possible that he was trying to set up a quick-lynch? That's distinctly possible. The one thing that snags me on this (and something I actually thought about earlier, but don't think I ever mentioned) is that if VitR is scum and Klebian is pro-town, with Dahen saying that he plans on voting Klebs, all VitR had to do was fabricate some cursory post and conclude that he agrees with the Klebian lynch. Vote Kleb, have Dahen vote Kleb, done and done. That didn't happen. Instead, VitR suggested that we pull things back and talk a bunch.

That's something of a minus for a Dahen-VitR pairing, but a potential plus for Kleb-VitR. It could also just be general pro-town curiosity from VitR. Still, it leaves me somewhat hesitant to label Dahen-VitR as a scumgroup.

On the other hand, Dahen asked VitR to provide his analysis, and he indicated that he would vote afterwards. A couple of hours later is when VitR makes his "I want more discussion first" post. Perhaps their window to quick-lynch had passed? Or perhaps they were worried that a quicklynch would be quite obvious, and they didn't want to risk me blocking one of them. That seems pretty plausable, too.



Dahen never really said anything about Fritzler. Then again, he never really said anything about Twito either, and he only poked at CES once without even supplying it with a vote (and he never really said anything about me either, come to think of it). If indeed we accept that scums had flavor or the Soldier PM, I could see Dahen as being scum. However, I have no idea who I think his scumbuddy would be.
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Post Post #1046 (isolation #199) » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:02 pm

Post by Glork »

Off-hand, I would say Klebian/VitR or Klebian/Fritzler.
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