Space Monkey Mafia: GAME OVER!

[klebian]

Yay.

vote: MBL

and we were so close to a lynch before the crash.. *tear*

[klebian]

btw, it's interesting that it's 10 to lynch instead of 9.

[klebian]

Glork, your blatant misrepresentation is noted. I didn't vote you for your vote, I voted you for your actions after the vote. Thus, it's not an OMGUS vote and you're being intentionally evasive, trying to make light in the face of your scumminess.

Um... I fully embrace my "scumminess." I am starting off a game by behaving in a completely ridiculous, counterintuitive, non-productive manner. Welcome to Glork's mafia play. Would you like me to go cite the eight thousand million examples in which I've done so and been accused of being a scumbag for it?

Also, your vote is in fact OMGUSy in nature... it's a reaction to the fact that I asked someone to kill you. "You say you want me dead so I'm going to vote for you" is OMGUS any way you look at it. It doesn't matter if you're talking about the vote itself or the request for a hammer.

What do you actually think of my vote on you? What do you think of this wagon? I'd like you on the record for tomorrow in the off chance that some mouthbreather lynches me now.

I understand why you're voting for me, and I really can't argue with it.
I think the wagon is pretty hilarious. But it's useful, too. It's not often that we get to start off a game by almost-lynching someone. You've stuck your votes/FoSes in the appropriate places. (Glork 3rd, plus asking for hammer; Bird putting you at Lynch -1; CES for Lynch -2) So far, things check out okay. I'm actually more interested in other peoples' reactions than yours.

Make no mistake about it, though. Had you been at Lynch -1 without me on the wagon, I would have hammered. I've never done something *that* ridiculous before. I think it'd be kinda fun to do it to someone. I think it'd be absolutely fucking hilarious. And I will do it before I retire from Mafia games altogether.

The whole post = QFT

[klebian]

The QFT meant that I totally agree with his post. Agreement = truthery, no?
What I mean is, I feel/would feel the exact same way in his position. In fact, the things he said were going through my mind before I read his post (as I was reading the topic). So I had to QFT the post.

[klebian]

Hey people, instead of stringing up MBL, try stringing up Bird or Sarc. It'll be just as fun...

Sorry, STD, but I don't think you can use "Sarc" as shorthand for "klebian". People could get confused and think you're referring to me. Besides that, though, I completely agree with you.

Ownt.

I don't really get why all these votes are on me, now. One random qft because I thought that his post made a lot of sense and I agreed with it totally and now I have 3 votes. Strange.

[klebian]

My experience says however that it's more common for scum to point out suckups than to actually suckup.

Lawl

[klebian]

'We'?

[klebian]

My vote has been on MBL since the preliminary wagon, but I don't really see why he has 5 votes now. Mainly, I see glork agreeing with inhim that we won't be able to lynch anyone else with such a 'near' deadline. Reading a bit more shows that the reason inhim and glork want to lynch mbl is because he has some differring opinions on what would result from an early bandwagon/lynch and who would be willing to hammer, etc.

But is bird a better candidate for a lynch? The initial basis was pretty solid, that he voted mbl to put him at -1, and unvoted within 24 hours.... But he's had not much to say for the rest of the game, other than asking why glork is suspicious for 'normal day 1 behavior'... Well, to me, a bird lynch sounds better than a mbl lynch. So, yes, I guess he is a better candidate.

unvote, vote: bird

[klebian]

(I do, however, also agree it would be better for a prod on bird and a claim or something, before he's actually lynched-- unless we reach deadline)

[klebian]

Can we at least have a prod on bird? He's at -1 and hasn't posted for quite a while, but he's active on other places here. Perhaps he forgot about the game. He shouldn't be hammered without being at least given a chance to POST.

[klebian]

Yay for glork's not paying attention again.

[klebian]

mod, bird has been prodded, yes?

[klebian]

You're correct. There was no basis; it got a miniwagon of 3, then people started voting on until we crashed. That's how I remember it, at any rate.

[klebian]

<snip>bird would still be alive, and therefore more useful to your scum group than if he were dead. Town would have to waste a Day just to get back to lynching bird, therefore giving the scum a near free pass and extra Night. Even better, a cop might have thought to investigate bird, and that would have been a wasted investigation if the Town were going to try and lynch bird again. It may have even exposed the cop if he couldn't keep his results to himself. <snip>

You're trying to blame the possibility of a cop exposing himself over a person we were going to lynch the next day anyway on him? The hammer was going to happen. You can say that this is not known at the time, but there was no evidence supporting bird, and if some evidence did turn up, many people would unvote, and you wouldn't be able to blame pj for our having the opportunity to not lynch him. That means that any decent innocent

would

hammer because it had already been reiterated that no lynch is worse than lynch a scummy person who's not been posting.

If a cop had decided to investigate bird, he might have decided to reveal his results the next day... I don't agree with this in entirety. There aren't many cops who won't keep their results to themselves unless they are in a good position to reveal. You're assuming that the cop could be dumb enough to investigate someone we were trying to lynch but failed due to deadline, and then even reveal results the next day, which he wouldn't have got the opportunity to do, most likely, as bird would've been wagoned again.

The case for inhim is stronger than the case for pj. I don't like inhim's attacks on pj.

Vote: Inhim

[klebian]

<snip>bird would still be alive, and therefore more useful to your scum group than if he were dead. Town would have to waste a Day just to get back to lynching bird, therefore giving the scum a near free pass and extra Night. Even better, a cop might have thought to investigate bird, and that would have been a wasted investigation if the Town were going to try and lynch bird again. It may have even exposed the cop if he couldn't keep his results to himself. <snip>

You're trying to blame the possibility of a cop exposing himself over a person we were going to lynch the next day anyway on him? The hammer was going to happen. You can say that this is not known at the time, but there was no evidence supporting bird, and if some evidence did turn up, many people would unvote, and you wouldn't be able to blame pj for our having the opportunity to not lynch him. That means that any decent innocent

would

hammer because it had already been reiterated that no lynch is worse than lynch a scummy person who's not been posting.

If a cop had decided to investigate bird, he might have decided to reveal his results the next day... I don't agree with this in entirety. There aren't many cops who won't keep their results to themselves unless they are in a good position to reveal. You're assuming that the cop could be dumb enough to investigate someone we were trying to lynch but failed due to deadline, and then even reveal results the next day, which he wouldn't have got the opportunity to do, most likely, as bird would've been wagoned again.

The case for inhim is stronger than the case for pj. I don't like inhim's attacks on pj. Vote: Inhim

No. Just... no. Could you please go back and look at the context - PJ asked what possible advantages there were for not voting against bird if they are scum together. I then listed possible advantages.

I am in no way laying any blame.

Do you see any blaming? No, it's just me answering a question.

And then you make assumptions for me. Again, did I say these things were going to happen? No, I was just answering a hypothetical question.

What do you not like about my attacks? What about them merits my vote?

In essence, what I saw was hypothetical blame. You're not really answering everything I said. I agreed that bird

would

have been hammered regardless of pj's vote, which you can't dismiss and call it irrelevant for this case. By your post, I see you saying that had pj not voted bird, bird wouldn't have been lynched. Because of this, a cop could've exposed himself in the effort of lynching someone we were going to lynch anyway. This is basically blaming pj for something that could've been a side-effect of his not voting bird.

I don't like your constant reiteration of how saying is not doing, etc. When he brings up that he said he would do something, you counter with the fact that he DIDN'T actually do it. Well, he said he would do it when no lynch was the only other option. We never got there. How would his not putting his vote on bird help him if they were scumbuddies? You seem to have answered this, but I don't really agree.

[klebian]

Zindaras, it's more for your setup speculation then for your inhim vote (although I don't like that either)

I agree with inhim. Do you not wonder why a gorilla was killed last night?

[klebian]

His scum? What about his scum?

MC: Ones giving the other CPR, genius.

[klebian]

Petroleumjelly's responses are good. I don't think glork can say much against ibby yesrterday that pj has not sufficiently responded to. (One thing, what exactly is tunnel vision?) I now see the purpose of an unroleblocker, such as if a cop claims, the unroleblocker can prevent him from being scum roleblocked. But that seems such a specific role.....

I agree with SV about thok. HOW IS IT SCUMMY TO SPECULATE?

[klebian]

I meant Zindie, not SV. Thok, I can see your standpoint, but I don't think that a few people discussing why something really strange happened last night will plant idea's into town's head. I don't get your point a, and point c doesn't really seem to fit here. I think it's fairly important to know what we have to deal with, and that's why speculating is usually done.

[klebian]

HAMMAH!

vote: C

--wait, no. I don't even know the case against CES...
*rereads*
OK, I shan't hammer. The only arguement is that his posts are extrememly short and he wagons a lot, which I gather he does in many games. I don't like to bring usual play into my games, but I don't think he's the worst offendor of this... some examples including phoebus, who has posted very few posts and not much content, pooky, who's wagoned just as much (previous post?!?) and posted just as less content, and fritz, same thing.

FoS: dahen

, for jumping on the ces wagon after 3 votes, with no reason having been given at all other than thok's "I believe lynching him is in the interest of the majority of us. "

Also, I don't like how easily glork seems to have been persuaded into changing votes 2 posts after saying "I would rather be lynching PJ and Klebian. " Same thing to StD. So,

FoS: glork and StD

as well. Please, people, day 1 was silly. I don't think we should have this kind of thing on day 3...

[klebian]

Well, day 3 has convinced me to take on a different mindset for the rest of the game.

[klebian]

Dang. And to think I was happy when CES turned up monkey, because I was the only one not wanting to lynch him.
Well, I'm a soldier as well. Unfortunately, unlike dahen, I HAVEN'T been dropping hints throughout the game, because I don't consider myself a likley nightkill, and I also didn't think the gorillas knew that they were looking for someone, so I didn't think there's much one can do to drop hints when the person you're dropping them for doesn't have a clue...
I do think thok should give his results later in the day, because it seems like he's a likely nightkill for tonight. PJ is obviously confirmed, since he was first to claim, and... well, never mind, my thinking mirrors PJ and his is better worded.

Before I dismiss this thought from my mind, inhim couldn't have ACTUALLY been an unroleblocker, could he have? kthx.

[klebian]

All quotes without name are pj's.

Well, I'm a soldier as well. Unfortunately, unlike dahen, I HAVEN'T been dropping hints throughout the game, because I don't consider myself a likley nightkill, and I also didn't think the gorillas knew that they were looking for someone, so I didn't think there's much one can do to drop hints when the person you're dropping them for doesn't have a clue...

Interesting. Klebian, please clarify something for me. You say you have a Traitor role, but you also say you didn't think the scum were looking for you. Question:

How did you suppose to ever be reunited with your Gorilla Group if they weren't looking for you?

I was under the impression that what my PM meant was that I would get 'found' if my group attempted to kill me. I didn't realize that there was actual 'hunting' for gorillas "going on". That may just be inexperience; I am not familiar with traitor roles and I guess I just assumed incorrectly. That's why I said in my quoted post 'I don't consider myself a likley nightkill'. This is just me being stupid.

PJ is obviously confirmed, since he was first to claim...

Although I will not dispute that I am a Gorilla, that's a dangerous attitude. It is more than possible that the scum were given the Gorilla Soldier role PM (if they are all uniform).

I don't know if they're all uniform; the way you described your role is the same as my PM. I considered this, however I dismissed it because I think that the scum have earned enough of an advantage with 3 days of town confusion. Similar to your logic about godfathers/millers, I do not think that the mod would give the scum a generic townie PM coupled with the entire town thinking they are the scum.

I've been giving the possibility of Godfathers/Millers a thinking, and have come to the conclusion that if we're dealing with that sort of role, Stoofer has really screwed us. I would certainly think the advantage of having all the townspeople thinking they were scum (and thus wanting to lynch faster, even perhaps forcing townspeople to fake-claim [InHim's claim still looks fake to me]) waiting to be recruited was huge enough for him to forego using Cop-immunity.

It does not even appear that we are told the nature of dead roles, and I am starting to wonder if Thok was on the right track for the N1 kill - it may have been "prearranged" simply to confirm to the Gorillas that they are indeed, scum, and that they began the game with the "advantage" of having killed the Doctor!

Of course, if there is a Space Monkey Godfather, I would certainly hope they would be revealed as a "Space Monkey Godfather". But there lies the problem: if the point of the set-up is to continually make the Gorillas think they were scum, Stoofer

would not

ever put down "Space Monkey Godfather" or "Space Monkey Goon" and so on, because that would give it away. And since I think it would be drastically unfair to not reveal to the town when/if they have killed the Godfather, that leads me to believe the chances of such a role in this game particularly unlikely.

I agree with your first paragraph. Unless the scum are around 3 in number (I guess not counting SpeedyKQ [which, by the way, I must mention; it's kinda unfortunate if the only reason he died night 1 was to throw town off track]), it's quite improbable that stoofer would load the scum up with advantage upon advantage. Thok seems correct; I see that all we were told about CES's role was that he was a space monkey, and all the gorillas have all been gorillas.

Notably, I had called StD obviously town earlier, simply because he seemed to be fingering Gorillas left and right. That's taking a double-meaning for me now. His "Bird + InHim > 0 Scum" post comes the fastest to my mind, in that he may have known both of them would come up Gorillas, hence "scum", which would make him look better so long as the town was left in the dark about the nature of the game. I would think he would be smart enough to distance after watching four Gorillas straight vote for CES if he were a Space Monkey. Of course, I would expect him to bandwagon even if he is a Gorilla. *sigh* This whole scum-town mechanic is really screwing with me.

This seems like a very interesting point. It's possible that StD didn't think through all consequences that would result when the setup was found out. That quote in fact is very strong, and it seems that you have made a very strong point against StD.

Glork only gets orange because I am more sure that Thok and Dahen are Gorillas than he is. After skimming his posts, I could definitely see him acting similarly to his play this game if he were actually a Space Monkey. He's prolly a Gorilla, but I'm more confident of those in red.

PJ, I reread the last few pages, and I feel you're being a bit to naiive about Glork. It's interesting that you guys have been butting heads for the past 2.5 days, and today after your claim, he accepts your claim, agrees that monkeys are scum, and now you're fairly convinced he's town. I believe that a space monkey could've easily made 533 as a gorilla. At this point, I think a smart monkey would've seen that their 'cover' for the game was blown, and decided to reveal the truth. Obviously, others were discovering it as well, so it's quite possible that glork made good use of the perfect opportunity to become buddies with one of the most influential town members. Not much of his post is written from a point of view that I would consider solely gorilla, and I as well am feeling that glork is not as confirmed as we may think.

Klebian, in addition to my earlier question, could you please explain your hesitation on hammering CES in more detail and rampant FoS's (instead of a vote on somebody else)?

As you pointed out in this same post, day 3 was much, MUCH too short. I felt that thok made a great post to start a wagon, and every just jumped on soon after that. My reasons are in post 508. I didn't think the arguement against CES was strong enough to warrant such a fast wagon. It should be noted that fritz and pooky have been wagoning and posting no content just as much as CES, which I pointed out. And I should also say that the case against CES was initially from glork. Thok said "I believe lynching him is in the interest of the majority of us. " and everyone else bandwagoned. I skimmed through the thread, and the only arguement against CES was (around post 390) that he was bandwagoning a lot, posting mainly 1 line posts, and that he needed a real explanation for this even though that's something he does all the time. I didn't think this was a case that warranted a lynch, or at least, not such a quick lynch. I was willing to hammer, but I wanted a stronger case presented, or at least some time of discussion.
To answer the second part, the main thing is that you can't vote 3 people. I was not happy with the CES wagon. A wagon is fine, but there needs to be a solid basis, and I was not seeing the basis in CES's wagon. I fosed the people who I thought were bandwagoning recklessly on someone who was being lynched for bandwagoning recklessly.



In other events, I'm not understanting this:

Good morning Thok. Did it go as planned?

Also, we had no night kill tonight, but I don't know if that's very much to be happy about. We have only had gorillas killed that way anyway.

I smell some funny bananas.

Did what go as planned? As far as I can see, dahen and thok are not connected in any way, and thus, there should not be anything that dahen and thok are discussing that we don't know. I guess by this point dahen had figured the setup out, although he didn't have any other information that other people (pj, me, other soldiers) didn't. This post needs explanation.

[klebian]

By that time yesterday, I was still thinking the scum were continually killing their own traitors, or that I was a lost gorilla being sought by two seperate scum groups who somehow kept missing kills or did indeed have alternating kills. I would like to think most players were still on my page by that time yesterday.

This is essentially the logic I told myself when gorillas kept dying. I seriously had no idea what was going on in the game, which is part of the reason why I was angry at those who called speculators suspicious; I had no idea what was going on and you can never be sure what to base your suspicions on if you don't know what's going on and why something strange is happening.

[klebian]

I think that we can clear Fritzler because the monkeys, while they may know who the gorillas are, don't necessarily know that we were "lost" until his post.

Hm?

[klebian]

So basically you're claiming vanilla townie?

[klebian]

EBWODP:

The Space Monkeys all have the following win condition:

You win when the all Gorillas have been killed and the

SS Simian

is safe once again.

huh.

[klebian]

MC: Read the game. Or read my summary of it. You're either an idiot or scum.

The problem is I can see him being gorilla thinking he's scum because he didn't read the game properly, and copying the line from Stoofer.

He didn't copy the line. That's why I quoted the generic PM.

[klebian]

Okay, in all seriousness, PJ, Andrew has a very reasonable point.

Suppose MC really is a Gorilla. Suppose we elect to keep him alive, guessing that he's too moronic to realize what's going on, but that he's, y'know... a pretty genuine kind of guy. It's a damned sure bet that the Space Monkeys are going to keep him alive, and then when it *really* comes down to it, in that clutch endgame situation, MC's gonna be a Gorilla, and the other Gorilla is going to have to choose the Space Monkey. We then leave it up to MC (who thinks he is GorillaScum and will hammer indiscriminately) to "find the scum" and win the game. It basically becomes a game of "hope that you vote first and that MC hammers [LOLROFL] the other guy first." I don't want to do that.

Regardless of his alignment, his existence is a detriment to the town. Even then, I'd still give odds that he's scum. Given what we see as the Space Monkeys' alleged win condition (which I suppose I see no reason to doubt) and given the wording MC used in his claim, I think he probably paraphrased it using the in-game lynch method, thinking that he might be modkilled if he quoted or copy/pasted it directly.

Basically, I'm thinking that there's a likely chance (60%ish) that he's scum, and that even in the event that he is town, he probably needs to be dead. As such is the case, I'd like to see his alignment when we go into night. I firmly believe that he is the play today.

1) I see your point about endgame. But I hope that mc would've realized what's going on by then. Hmm, but yes, I see your point.
2) I don't think he thought he would be modkilled. If he did, he definitely wouldn't have put a win condition there...

Hmm. I stand undecided here... I don't really see mc being scum as much as you guys do, but I also agree that I don't want him to live on.

I will consent to vote masterchief, but I want to ask, why are we extending the day? I think there has been reasonable amount of discussio today, but not enough?

[klebian]

I'm assuming you meant space monkeys. I'd estimate 5 total, so around 4 monkeys left. However, maybe they were put at enough of an advantage to make a smaller scumteam? So it's possible that there are just 3 left, not 4. I guess you're right.

MOD: 5 to lynch is correct? Or is it 4 to lynch?

[klebian]

I meant, is it 6 to lynch?

[klebian]

Need to be off to class very soon, but

FoS: Glork

. This might turn into a vote very soon. The entire Masterchief scenario yesterday (with Glork pushing for it constantly after trying to make

me

look worse for "rolling lynches along") played on my mind while the game was waiting in night.

Um... I think you misunderstand the "suspicious for rolling lynches along" argument I was going to make yesterday. That was in reference to Days 1-3 when I felt that Space Monkeys would have wanted to do so in order to keep the town from discussing and possibly figure things out. My case was based on the way you pursued Bird/inHim/Glork, not from anything you did post-revelation (especially considering you didn't actually figure things out until we were in D4). If you think you can make a legitimate parallel between pre-revelation behavior and post-revelation behavior, I'm interested to hear it. But I'm not really sure where you're coming from with that.

Personally, I'd think that gorillas would be just as liable (if not more liable) to roll lynches along so we could get to night and hope to be found...

Well, judging from the fact that the space monkeys have roles in addition to the scumgroup(we saw a monkey doctor), I can guess that there is at most 3 more monkeys in our midst (2 have already been killed, and anything more than 5 in an 18 player game with additional power roles would be unbalanced).

see, the thing is, the doctor may have just been a decoy to make us think that monkeys were actually dying at night, and that they actually had roles. However, I did overlook that, and you are right, there are probably only 3, not 4 monkeys alive right now.

PJ, I agree with you on glork. I will throw out a

vote: glork

, in fact.

[klebian]

Basically, glork, what you're saying is that you think that in a game where the first 3 days have most of the town thinkin they're scum, you think the ONE gorilla investigative role will be hindered by a godfather, AND that the godfather (and I guess, the rest of the scum) has the exact generic townie PM?

[klebian]

Using the list:

Borrowed from PJ.

dahen

Fritzler
Glork

klebian

, investigated
Nightson

petroleumjelly

replacing ibaesha

, investigated

AndrewS

replacing PookytheMagicalBear

, investigated
Save the Dragons

Thok

replacing Bogre

Twito

And that would contain probably 3-4 Gorillas. (18/4=4-5 Gorillas total.)

Blah. Brilliant, STD posts simultaneously with me casting the lynching vote.

brilliant?

or nefarious plot among scumpartners that can day talk?

some times i wonder

Made me laugh so bad!

Unsure about my vote. I need to do a re-read/re-skim.

For that matter, twito's paying more attention than you. SHAPE UP.

[klebian]

STD, why are you voting fritzler? Shouldn't you vote nightson or glork, since you believe them to be scum, but fritz could go either way?

[klebian]

although this is -1, i agree.

Unvote, vote STD

[klebian]

Hey now. I tend to post.... in... hm.
Obviously, glork's defense isn't saying much, but I don't see how he can defend himself well in this kind of situation.

[klebian]

So, given that Twito is Space Monkey, who else do you think is Space Monkey?

Good question. I'll think over this.

[klebian]

Bah, I'm going to read through twito's posts, but he just starts out with so much spam.

[klebian]

gimme a few hours, i'll post substantially today.

[klebian]

Analysis of twito's posts:

D = dead, A = alive; G = Gorilla (Or confirmed gorilla), S = Space monkey, U = unconfirmed.

Day 1:
Votes MBL- DG- part of our initial bandwagon, not really relevant to role, just as well calling this a random vote
Unvotes, says he meant to hug, not vote
Votes Bird- DG- for unvoting from the mbl wagon very soon after jumping on
Suspicions of Phoebus-DG
Stays voting on bird for many weeks, until lynch.
Minimal conversing with glork, nothing beyod

I'll say it again: Bird should be claiming right about now.

Why? He is just gonna end up liyng since he is scum.

and

Now I have to get PJ lynched? Oh poo.
He can wait until tomorrow. In the meantime, he should vote for MBL.

I agree with having to get PJ lynched tomorrow. But bird is todays vote.

Actually, the 2nd is sort of concerning; quite possible that he was just joking in the spirit of the game, but this may actually be some hidden conversation with scumbuddy glork. No conversing with nightson or fritz. Accuses Zinde-DG- here

Unvote

. No time to re-read now, will re-read before deadline.

Gives me the feeling of having vote on scumbuddy and noticing that throw under the bus manover isn't necassery.

. Not much noteworthy at this point from this though.

Bird, DG, lynched.
Day 2: Not much important until this post:

Don't like the PJ wagon or the inhim wagon.

Even though those are the two biggest wagons you obviously can consider voting someone else aswell

Kinda weird response, but then again, it could just be regular twito here.
Twito posts ver little day 2, goes to voting inhim(DG) but nothing else.

Day 3: All of this day is basically spent joking around and attacking masterchief. Votes MC(DG). Nothing comes out of this toda.

Day 4: He goes back to voting masterchief, and is the first to laugh when Masterchief calls out andrew for claiming gorilla. Votes MC for this whole day too.

Day 5: Wow. Just crap posts. God, how did it require us a cop investigation to get twito as scum? Only relation to Glork and/or nightson:

Glork= Got it pretty early, before PJ, but he was aswell very much following the game. I always find it very hard to read Glork.

Nightson= "Got it" before PJs claim post then again after Glork asking PJ whether he is Gorilla or a Space Monkey. Wasn't paying that much attention before this so I wonder how he "got it" so fast.

Oh wait, he did comment on fritz's mistake of saying that andrew might be scum. (Andrew had replaced pooky, confirmed gorilla):

To me Fritzlers mistake looks like pretty honest mistake...
It looks similar to MC case. Except when it's about MC for me it's not as important whether he gets lynched as town or as scum....
However Fritz makes me laugh so he is necessary to keep around as long as possible.

OK, overall, I really don't see any hints dropped from twito, some minor dicussion with glork/fritz/nightson but nothing notable at all. Good job of not talking with anyone in particular (other than MC).

[klebian]

vote: twito

[klebian]

Well, at this point I don't see too much from arguing against your role. I've had some suspicions of you since a bit after pj's claim, but right now it's futile for me to really try attacking you and say that you're lying without it being much OMGUS. All I'll say is you're assuming quite a bit from your role if one roleblock+no kill

So:

Anyway, on this past night: In what spare time I've had this weekend, I've put a sizeable amount of thought into all of this, and I've read over Klebian's posts a couple of times. I decided that the Godfather role isn't even that big a deal. If Thok had investigated Klebian as a "Gorilla" before the revelation, he probably would have been unlikely to try to get Klebian lynched unless he really felt like busing somebody. (And given the ration of Gorilladeaths to SMdeaths, even that's unlikely at best.) After the revelation, a "Gorilla" result on Klebs would simply be seen as an innocent.

Sorry, but I really don't get what you're saying at all here. " the Godfather role isn't even that big a deal." especially, but I don't get the point you're trying to convey for the rest of the paragraph either.

Anyway... I definitely think that Klebs is scum. He avoided hammering CES. He never really weighed in on Twito much, instead following PJ's lead in going after me and later voting for StD. And when he made his analysis of Twito's posts, he came to a non-conclusion, saying that Twito interacted with Glork/Nightson/Fritz a little bit, and actually complimenting Twito for avoiding talking to any of us.

Then, y'know, there's the whole "lack of an N4 kill with no apparent Doctor role" thing.

Vote: Klebian

There was no evident case on CES. I felt that the wagon built up out of nowhere. I stated my suspicions on you even when PJ was buddying up with you, and this led him to temporarily take you off his 'semi-confirmed list'. I tried analyzing twito's posts, and I couldn't get much out of them that would sound like scum to scum talking. There were a few minor interactions with you and fritz that seemed like going with scumbuddies, but nothing so evident enough that I could really say much about. Which is good, that a scum can really just play without associating.

Your points aren't very strong, and I have a suspicion that we're in LYLO, which would mean that a lynch of me and monkeys win the game. However, your claim seems credible at this point. I just think that you're taking too little and labeling me as scum.

[klebian]

Klebian, explain to me again in your own words your thoughts on the night-kill situation before I had claimed.

Glork: Not entirely impressed with your claim (any person with a reasonable attention span would have claimed something similar if they wanted to claim a power role whatsoever). I will want to hear from both Fritzler and Nightson to verify, since I can see both a possibility of you making up that ability or actually having that ability as scum.

PJ, I realized something as I was rereading the game. First, the main reason I believed that I would be recruited by a nk and not by some type of targetting was not just because of my inexperience, but also because of this post by glork (on december 11):

Zindie -- Part of me doubts that the scum didn't know that MBL was one of them. If they did (i.e., if MBL had a traditional Traitor role), targeting him normally recruits him into the Mafia; it doesn't kill him. My guess is that a (very awesome and intelligent) Vigilante decided to nail him overnight. Personally, I feel that it was pretty necessary to get the alignment on either MBL or me. We got into a pretty extended debate, and both MBL and I were right in the middle of things. Truth be told, I expected to be dead in the morning based on the fact that Bird came up scum. And if MBL had died as town, I probably would be the one with a noose practically around my neck. But I don't think that the mafia killed him.
The lack of a kill on a pro-town player is pretty difficult to explain at this point. Nurse, Replacement/Backup, Roleblocker... there's really no way to tell. Let's just chalk it up to good fortune and focus on what we can figure out right now.

I guess I misread this or something then, but I still remember as this confirming my thought that I would only be recruited by nk.

Regarding the night kills, people were basically throwing out ideas about why this was happening, and as you may note, thok was calling this scummy, but i was desparately crying out as to why this would be so. Personally, I was unable to form my own opinion because almost the first thing I read at the start of day 2 was people's opinions as to what they thought was going on, so my thoughts were basically how I agreed and disagreed with other people. I didn't really think the janitor theory was likely. I thought that the thoery about some type of multiple scum or alternate scums killing was possible. I thought that this was probably the closest we could get to knowing what was going on; there were two scumgroups, both called themselves gorillas, and they were trying to kill out either the town or the other gorillas, and a kill of me would instead recruit me to their side, and there was some kind of alternation going on with the kills between the groups.

[klebian]

Here's a few questions for everybody:

1.) How many Space Monkeys do you think are left?
2.) Do you think the Space Monkeys have any abilities?
3.) Given the answers to above, do you think a Lynch or a No-Lynch is strategically better with 6 players alive?

I would like confirmation from either VitaminR [Nightson], Fritzler, or Klebian to see if any of them can verify being role-blocked.

1) 2. I'm pretty sure two.
2) I don't think that space monkeys have abilities; I'm in accordance with speedykq being just a... red herring? Is that the right word?
3) I had actually typed out a post asking whether no-lynch was beneficial, but I didn't post it, because I realized that I don't see much benefit coming out of this. Unless glork blocks a kill, which I don't believe will happen, I think that you would be killed tonight. I know glork, fritz, nightson, and I won't be killed, and I doubt that dahen will be killed over you. So No lynch wouldn't get us any 'information'. I'm however now curious why there was no kill n4. It's possible that scum purposely nokilled, but I don't find this likely.

[klebian]

Well, MC being a vig gives credibility to SpeedyKQ not being a red herring too. However, inhim not being scum makes me think that speedy definitely was a red herring, and his role as well.

[klebian]

you claimed to have blocked inhim night 1. As inhim was not scum, and we don't appear to have a doc, there couldn't have viably been a kill of speedykq unless he was a red herring.

[klebian]

actually, then i see no reason why only scum died unless mod was tricking us. Yeah, never mind. I'm pretty sure speedy's a herring, regardless of mc's ability.

[klebian]

Questions for everyone:

In your opinion, what possible feasible explanations can explain for the lack of an N4 kill? Which of these do you find the most likely at this point?

What possible roles do you think MC might have had? Which of these do you find to be the most likely at this point?

No N4 kill. Hmm. I really don't know. Obviously from my point of view, a roleblock from you is not possible, but mc could've been a blocker and have blocked n4. Don't find a doc protection likely, but I think it's possible that scum decided not to kill. None of these seem especially likely, so I can't really say I find any likely. Although, thok having some kind of immunity seems at least somewhat likely. But I don't think it's more likely than any of the other options.

MC may have been a blocker or backup cop. I don't think he was a doc. I wasn't able to really see any meaning of an ensign that stands out, but then again, I would be able to get blocker from captain or cop from lieutenant either.

[klebian]

Although I see your point, I do think that if thok had died earlier than he did, town would have been at little information, and we would have very little chance without strong analysis and town play.

I now see the point in MC having some kind of thok-protecting role. It sounds somewhat viable.

However, I doubt he would then have a blocking role. Hm. I'm now beginning to reconsider the possiblity that I've been set up by Glork.

[klebian]

Now you're doing the same thing Klebian was doing. If you honestly thought "Traitors are recruited if they are targeted by scum", explain to me exactly how Gorillas were consantly being nightkilled? Did you just think the scum groups continually missed their kills and that there was a Vigilante who kept shooting down scum?

Answer this.

I didn't know (or think that I knew) how Traitors were being treated.

As I said earlier, I was trying to figure out how the Gorilla group worked:

No... I didn't. I wasn't sure if any of the scums knew about me or not. I wasn't sure if the setup was something like in Covert Ops, where a Leader knows his people's identities. I didn't know if I was an old-fashioned "if you get targeted, you get recruited" traitor.

Part of the reason that I didn't know was

BECAUSE

two Gorillas had died at night.

I don't believe this. You blocked him on a night where you thought he was scum: and then there were no Nightkills. And then you decided your stance was

neutral

towards him?

Yes. I went against my role information and changed my mind. I already mentioned why I was hesitant to rely on my blocking ability. And MC was hitting my 'dar much more at the time.

Wait wait wait, 2 gorillas never died. What night were you referring to anyway?

[klebian]

Huh. Well, let me read through today's conversation. But, I just want to say, to PJ: regarding your last post, it seems as if you're taking the stance of not speculating at all on the lack of n4 kill. While there shouldn't be anything wrong with this, I was 'blocked' n4. Thus, unless you don't believe glork is a rb (which is true), you should at least be considering whether I really am scum and glork actually blocked me and thus stopped a scum kill. Although this doesn't affect you, really, as you say that you don't believe glork, I hope that someone else won't take this same stance as well unless they also don't believe glork.

Also, I'd like dahen+fritz to get some opinions into this too.

[klebian]

Actually, another thing.

Glork:
Why do you think thok was not killed night 5?
Why do you think he was not killed night 6?

[klebian]

Day Four:

I was right! Klebian is scum, because I blocked him last night after calling him scum and there were no nightkills!

Oh WAIT. That

never happened

. Imagine! Instead, what we have is this:

Day Four:

Despite the fact that I suspect Klebian, and I blocked him last night, and there were no kills, let's lynch Masterchief! After all, he is arguably the absolute easiest person to lynch in the entire game, and the most likely person to not be paying attention whatsoever!

I have also addressed this. I was very hesitant to rely on my block, and I had simply changed my mind about my late-D3 suspicion of Klebian.

But the thing is, what you are being attacked for is going entirely against how you play. Normally, you would take this slight bit of information and if not attack me, at least consider the possibility that I was scum. You say that you blocked me, there was no kill, and you changed your mind. This

completely

defeats part of the purpose of roleblocking in the early game; you block someone and when there is no kill, you consider that they may be scum. I understand, you bring this up now because we are past all claims, and there is no other feasible explanation for no n4 kill. However, you should know that mods are always coming up with new ideas. The idea for this game itself is pretty un-ordinary. Don't you think it's possible that there's something that resulted in a n4 no-kill? And what do you think will be the result of speculating on masterchief's role? We'll all 'agree' on the most feasible role for him and lynch players as a result of that? There are tons of roles, and plenty of room for new ideas here as well. You say an ensign has no medical expertise. Well then, does a captain have roleblocking expertise? And does a lieutenant have investigative expertise? I don't see the consistency here. Thus, even if we were all to give our ideas for mc's role, and someone tally up the votes and we all decide that mc was that such role, I think we'd really be dumb if we based our play on that. So, in effect, I agree with pj that although there's nothing

wrong

with speculation, there's not too much that a consensus will give us.

Oh, and:

you "understood" the twist of the game much too soon

Along with 2-3 other players, as I seem to remember explaining earlier? You didn't get it. Numerous other players indicated that they did get it, Dahen, Klebian, and Nightson included.

Nope. Wrong.

[klebian]

I put that in apostrophes, to indicate that I was

claimed

to have been blocked.

Oh, and I might as well explain the "which is true", because that may cause confusion as well. I meant, that PJ doesn't believe glork is a rb, so [the rest of my post] follows.

[klebian]

I believe that this quote of mine has been horribly misinterpreted.

Well, day 3 has convinced me to take on a different mindset for the rest of the game.

What I meant here was, I have been convinced to take on a different mindset regarding wagoning. I could've freely hammered CES, but I decided not to because I didn't like the case against him. However, when someone else freely hammered him, I was convinced that I would not feel any shame in hammering anyone for the rest of the game.

I DID NOT have any clue as to the gorrila vs monkeys thing at that point. I was confused, which shows in my first post of day 4: "Dang. And to think I was happy when CES turned up monkey, because I was the only one not wanting to lynch him." I have a feeling this will also be misinterpreted, so I'll translate this too: I was happy that CES turned up SMTown because I was the only one opposing his lynch and I felt that the other SMTownies would consider me on the side of SMTown because I was the only one opposing his lynch.


@Fritz: You just 'really agreed' with my analysis, and then went completely in the opposite direction of what I just said to believe glork.

[klebian]

But I just spent a post explaining that there are numerous reasons for a lack of a kill. Are you really so naive to think that Stoof didn't come up with some other role? And really, Mastercheif's role itself is a solid enough reason for a lack of a kill. Cmon.

[klebian]

Glork: I must say I didn't see you say I had understood. Just bad skimming on my part.

Vitamin; if MC was not a vig, then SpeedyKQ was a red herring. I think we're good to assume Speedy was a red herring.

I don't really know if MC would've claimed if he was a roleblocker. He was, after all, GorillaScum (in his mind). I think that he would've gone the same way he did regardless of his role (which I consider a roleblocker still a possibility).

And "That doesn't really leave many plausible roles for Masterchief. " If you're going to assume this, then please read my arguments that I have posted regarding this. I have directly said that there are plenty of roles that he could have -- what does plausible mean in this game's context?

Vitamin: Your post seems to be from the point of view that you believe glork. Noted.

[klebian]

Vitamin, do you think that if MC was a scum doc, he wouldn't have claimed doctor?

Also, The thing is, I know the lack of a night kill is significant. However, as I myself know I am vanilla, I know that there must have been some other reason for this. However, how do you expect me to tell you why something happened? I think that we are relying too much on the fact that MC probably had a standard role, and we are assuming too much of how he would play (like how he would've claimed roleblocker). I can't explain why there was no n4 kill, but I don't think that you can really say that even if there were only standard roles, MC didn't have a role that could interfere with night kills.

Well, deadline is soon approaching, and I get the feeling that glork is making it seem as if it's either me or him, so I shall

vote: glork

Oh, and, @Vit: why I think you believe glork? Well, for starters, I'm not the only one

VitR seems to want to believe that my blocking of Klebian is responsible for the lack of an N4 kill, but he is unwilling to commit to a vote.

But I just get this feeling from your explanation of how MC "couldn't" have been a roleblocker.

[klebian]

Fritz: What flavor ice cream?

Neapolitan, but that dick that takes way more chocolate than vanilla and strawberry

Can someone explain to me what this post meant, or was it a joke?

[klebian]

Glork, you do recall, that I haven't really trusted you since day 4? I don't think you can really say that I've not voiced any suspicions of you until 'just recently'. However, you have summed up these last few posts pretty well. Whether I am town or scum, it would be stupid for me to switch to voting on VitaminR.

[klebian]

Well, I can't really see any encryption in Vitamin's post that represents the difference between glork's claim and my PM. He claims that he has the ability to convince other primates to stand down and take no action, while I am told that I was trying to slaughter the crew. Weapons may be another difference, but that doesn't seem significant enough.

[klebian]

But Glork, if I am protown, by your pairings, you (and scum) win...
Because if I am protown, then you're not the roleblocker. And thus town loses.

[klebian]

Glork, go ahead and tell me again, what do you think MC's role was and why are you ruling THAT out of a possibility for lack of a n4 kill?

[klebian]

I'd say glork/vitaminR. glork/fritz doesn't seem as viable to me, and dahen's crumbs are good enough to keep him out of suspicion. I believe that I have said all that I can say in the flavor discussion.
Dahen, PJ responded to that, and I agree; how does it make glork out of suspicion because last time you were suspicious of him, he was town?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 124#528124

[klebian]

I state here three things.
1. It can happen that I am suspicious of Glork even though he is town.
2. The lack of kills and return to Thok suggest a role-blocker and is pro-Glork.
3. Glork was fast with his claim, which I think speaks in his favor too (too refers to as in addition to no 2).

I like PJ's idea of lynching the common person within the pairings, but his suggestion is to lynch VitaminR. Since I don't think a Glork+Klebian thing here is very likely I'd want Klebian to try to convince me why Fritz isn't viable.

And another thing, Klebian - how sure are you that Glork is scum, and why?

OK: First, to your 3 points: The only one that I may agree with is number 2. However, I'm not exactly sure I know what you mean when you say 'return to Thok'

I can basically combine the 2nd and 3rd points. I believe your crumb, so I believe you to be town. I am quite sure PJ is town. This leaves VitR, Fritz, and Glork. Thus, There are three pairings: Glork/Vit, Glork/Fritz, Fritz/Vit. Essentially, you are asking me how sure I am that the pairing is not Fritz/Vit, and why Glork/Vit is more viable than anything else.
How sure am I that Glork is scum, and thus the pairing is not Fritz/Vit? Well, for glork and I to both be innocent, masterchief must have had a role that can prevent a kill. Also, each of glork's blocks must have 'missed'. Night 6 he blocked Fritz, and Night 7 he blocked VitR. If glork is innocent, then the pairing is Fritz/Vit. This means that the night glork blocked vit, fritz made the kill, and vice versa. This itself is only a 1/4 chance: that the scum are alternating kills the reverse pattern as glork was alternating his block. Also, glork has been taking this day in the sense that masterchief's role is not a viable factor in the lack of a n4 kill. I have got the feeling that glork is making the situation as if it's either me or him. Thus, I am fairly sure glork is scum, but if he's not, then we've just had bad luck.

Why is fritz not viable? Well, I've never said that he isn't, but I do think that glork being scum basically makes vitamin scum. I have got the feeling from his posts that he is posting from a point of view that he believes glork, which, if they are scumbuddies, can be distanced (I hope I'm using the correct word here) by just saying that he believes glork. However,

if

we lynch fritz then:
1) He is scum. His partner is VitaminR. Glork blocks either me or vitamin. If there is no kill, then, as said, we have 5 people and can make 2 lynches with a maximum of 1 scum left. Otherwise, someone is cleared.
2) He is scum. His partner is glork. Glork pretends to block someone. Depending on how he feels, he will either kill, or not kill, someone. If he doesn't kill, he will say he blocked me. You will lynch me, I will turn up town, and then lynch glork the next day. If he kills someone, then I will be cleared (because I feel that if we are lynching fritz, glork will be blocking me if he comes up scum). I feel that glork will be on the chopping block if this happens, so I don't think this scenario (of fritz being scum, and there being a nightkill tonight) is feasible.
3) He is town. Scum are glork and vitamin. We lose.

So from my point of view, lynching fritz is bad because if he is town, we lose. However, lynching vitaminR gives the same result. That is why I am not able to vote anyone other than glork.


Regarding the PMs. I really don't see any more differences that have not been pointed out. All that I haven't mentioned, (but I don't think you're looking for this) is that glork mentioned he had no weapons but I personally have weapons, I'm just out of ammo. I don't think we should be going more in depth with this, and I agree that using role PMs, at any rate, is a very lazy way to make decisions.

Now, I'd also like fritz to respond to that question. And VitR, why are you not considering a scumgroup of fritz + glork?

[klebian]

Oh, crap, you're right. I'm going to have to rethink this, but I've already spent too much time today. I'll see if I can post later today; otherwise it will be tomorrow.

[klebian]

I don't remember selling tickets to a "Glork and PJ Show"

I sold tickets.


The show is quite awesome. You should see it sometime.

I want my money back.

PJ, no bananas for me, I guess. I mean, I could make a fair guess, but that's all it would be.

Dahen, I thought his wording was fairly clear. You said, "I am going to vote Glork or Klebian.". He asked if this was still the case-if you still thought you were going to only vote one of us. I know you respond to this line of thinking right after that, but I just think his wording was clear so it's kind of strange to make that statement.

[klebian]

I think the important thing here is that glork had many days and nights to think over this claim. What I can see happening is his scumgroup being stopped one night, and then masterchief dying the next day. After more days of no discussion of the no kill, glork finalized this claim, and now people are believing this and saying that there isn't really a viable alternative. I think that glork's claim, while seemingly good in terms of flavor (I'm pretty sure this is the consensus we've reached), is, as PJ says, very easy to have been faked.

[klebian]

bump?

[klebian]

I need to amend some of my earlier conclusions, because part of this was based on a possible fritz-glork scumgroup.

I consider these 3 people possible scum: Glork, Fritlzer, VitaminR.
Possible scumgroups:
Glork + Fritzler (Impossible, because Fritz would have hammered me and Glork wouldn't be a roleblocker).
VitaminR + Fritzler (Highly Unlikely, because Fritz would have hammered, and Glork would have to guess the kill, and most likely scum would've won there, and later they could've quicklynched glork, as dahen said)
Glork + VitaminR has seemed the most likely one to me for a while. Dahen, I look at where you say vitamin said an ensign fits rb. He never really follows this up, because he appears to believe that while rb fits, mc would've claimed this. This seems like a fairly weak attempt at distancing to me.

Dahen, at your number 14. Glork/Fritzler is impossible, because otherwise Fritz would've hammered me.

I do not see dahen as viable. The n4 no-kill doesn't seem to be a recruitment, to me. I hope I'm not making a newbish mistake in ruling that out, but in my mind, I have declared that unlikely. Following this, I know see Fritz as fairly unlikely. The scumgroup that seems to make the most sense to me is glork + vitR. If we lynch glork and he is town, we lose. If we lynch vitR and he is town, glork would probably be scum. Eh. But I guess we'd be better off with a small chance than no chance.
I do not see a benefit from voting glork anymore. To believe that we have a chance of winning if vitR is town and we lynch him, I would have to consider a fritz + dahen scumgroup. However, there's no chance at all if glork is town.
Rereading my post 1072, I made some pretty crappy reasoning there. I think most of that was based on my thinking that fritz+glork was still somewhat viable.

At this point, I do now think that vitR would make more sense than glork. Glork can help us win tonight, while vitR can't.

Therefore, despite my (stupid) arguments earlier, I'll go with the glork-vitR scumgroup, but I'm going to vote vitR.

unvote, vote: VitaminR

[klebian]

Dahen, I look at where you say vitamin said an ensign fits rb. He never really follows this up, because he appears to believe that while rb fits, mc would've claimed this. This seems like a fairly weak attempt at distancing to me.

What? I said, the moment I pointed out that Ensign fits roleblocker, that I would expect Masterchief to have claimed it. I still believe that. It's not a question of never following it up.

That's what I said (or meant, meh). Because you think he would've claimed rb, you believe masterchief wasn't a roleblocker. However, dahen took that post where you said that ensign makes sense as a roleblocker, and apparently didn't read the rest of it, because he used that post and interpreted it as

VitR is thereby quite anti-Glork. I think he here tries to get a new wagon to start on Glork.

I disagree, I see it as you saying that while rb does make sense, you don't think he was rb and are thus pro-glork, and that one statement where you say that ensign + rb makes sense was weak distancing if anything; definitely not making you quite anti-glork and trying to get a wagon started.

Dahen, this seems like a fairly big misrepresentation here...

[klebian]

2 scums, btw

[klebian]

aside from PJ, you're the player I see as most likely to be town.

Why?

[klebian]

dammit dammit dammit.
Bah. Bah. Bah. PJ!!!!! C'mon, man.........
I'm saying scum won at this point.

[klebian]

Wow. Great game, I'd say.
I do agree that the MC kill was completely unnecessary, but I'm sorry to say I was a main reason that we didn't discuss more why we shouldn't have lynched him.
I really thought we had the game won. I didn't see PJ putting me at -1 to test glork. Meh. Definitely enjoyable.

[klebian]

edbwop: I'm sorry to see that the main reason the other gorillas suspected me was because there was no viable reason for a lack of n4 kill, and the reason turned out to be:

On night 4 the makeshift vaporizer malfunctioned and they had to spend the night repairing it.

Such as this occurence:

Day Four:

I was right! Klebian is scum, because I blocked him last night after calling him scum and there were no nightkills!

Oh WAIT. That

never happened

. Imagine! Instead, what we have is this:

Day Four:

Despite the fact that I suspect Klebian, and I blocked him last night, and there were no kills, let's lynch Masterchief! After all, he is arguably the absolute easiest person to lynch in the entire game, and the most likely person to not be paying attention whatsoever!

I have also addressed this. I was very hesitant to rely on my block, and I had simply changed my mind about my late-D3 suspicion of Klebian.

But the thing is, what you are being attacked for is going entirely against how you play. Normally, you would take this slight bit of information and if not attack me, at least consider the possibility that I was scum. You say that you blocked me, there was no kill, and you changed your mind. This

completely

defeats part of the purpose of roleblocking in the early game; you block someone and when there is no kill, you consider that they may be scum. I understand, you bring this up now because we are past all claims, and there is no other feasible explanation for no n4 kill. However, you should know that mods are always coming up with new ideas. The idea for this game itself is pretty un-ordinary. Don't you think it's possible that there's something that resulted in a n4 no-kill? And what do you think will be the result of speculating on masterchief's role? We'll all 'agree' on the most feasible role for him and lynch players as a result of that? There are tons of roles, and plenty of room for new ideas here as well. You say an ensign has no medical expertise. Well then, does a captain have roleblocking expertise? And does a lieutenant have investigative expertise? I don't see the consistency here. Thus, even if we were all to give our ideas for mc's role, and someone tally up the votes and we all decide that mc was that such role, I think we'd really be dumb if we based our play on that. So, in effect, I agree with pj that although there's nothing

wrong

with speculation, there's not too much that a consensus will give us.

Fritz's response:

I really agree with this analysis, but without another valid reason for the lack of a ngiht kill i tend to believe glork. I don't buy the recruiting traitor idea. It would be a bad move of stoof. With us vanilla townies that think we're traitors, stoof wouldn't do that

Hey, glork, fritz actually claimed vanilla in this post, and probably earlier if he was speaking in that manner.