Mini 368: Town Of Suspicion - Game over!

[pablito]

On my entry read-through, I did not find mith scummy, then again I did not find mith to be extremely pro-town either.

Based on other's arguments, I have started to find mith scummy, I'm still deciding whether I want to value the town's opinion or if I want to evaluate him myself. I have not seen anything from mith that has made me feel increase the pro-town rating.

[LuckayLuck]

Why do you think you're next to go, why not mith? Why do you even think you're death is coming up?

Meh. I overreacted, but mentally inside, I told myself that I had to be right about al_koh and set myself completely apart from him with

Hammer al_koh, hammerhammerhammer, I think we've gotten all the useful information we'll get out of him. Hammerhammerhammer!!

so I would really hate to be wrong here.

Would you rather end this game winning? Or never having been lynched?

I would rather neither happen, I'm okay with being eaten though.

To LL and Pab, do you find mith scummy or protown?

Mith is scummy only by elimination for me. (With pablito & PJ & Thok set aside as townies, if I'm correct there, the remaining mafia are pretty condensed in the remainder people)

[LuckayLuck]

Would you rather end this game winning? Or never having been lynched?

I would rather

BOTH

happen, I'm okay with being eaten though.

Fixed my post

[al_kohaulec]

...

[mith]

Vote: al_kohaulec

I'd like to think that I would vote for him based on his recent behavior regardless of who he was going after, but I'll admit there's a tad of an OMGUS involved as well.

A few things caught my eye reading the past few days and rereading al in particular.

1. This is directed at CTD. One of the reasons you gave for voting me was post 507. I've responded to that. I am wondering what you think about al's posts 481 and 499. al is actually claiming he was

leaning toward someone else

, in a close vote near the deadline. Why was he still voting for M4yhem, then? Surely an unvote was called for if he was really as torn as he is now claiming.

2. If al is scum, he's playing it brilliantly. Not so much because of what he's doing; acting apathetic and then a few days later trying to appear helpful and shift attention to someone else is a pretty common tactic. But he's doing it well enough that some of you are actually buying it. Read through his posts today again. He's been encouraging others to vote for me, but what case has he brought to the table? I've seen a grand total of two things directed at me (there may be some more in the tinyfied post, which I haven't read), both of which I have responded to (and of course he has not commented on either response). One of them is simply not true, and the other is a difference of opinions regarding what constitutes a scum tell.

3. I normally don't think much about linking people until we actually have a dead scum to link with, but LL's wording in 626 (that he has "set [himself] completely apart from" al), coupled with a few comments from al regarding Rosso (he's never been shy about saying he thinks Rosso was innocent) makes me wonder if LL is scum with al.

Hey, it's a better theory than the nonsense in 617.

FOS: LuckayLuck

4. al is right in saying that a lot of people seem to consider me scummy - that happens most games, though. What I haven't seen is good reasons. Frustrating, because there's not much I can say in my defense when there's so little to defend against.

I'm back in the UK Wednesday, should be back to normal posting after that. I will try to post in between anyway, but no promises.

[Kelly Chen]

Vote Count

3 - al_kohaulec (M4yhem, pablito, mith)
2 - mith (CrashTextDummie, al_kohaulec)

not voting: Thok, petroleumjelly, Thestatusquo, LuckayLuck

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch!

last posts:
al_ko: jan 6
CTD: jan 2
LL: jan 5
M4yhem: jan 3
mith: jan 6
pablito: jan 5
PJ: jan 5
Thok: jan 2
TSQ: dec 28

Not too bad. Prodding TSQ.

Let us have the tentative

deadline

for

Wednesday, Jan 24

. Most votes gets it.

[al_kohaulec]

Why was he still voting for M4yhem, then? Surely an unvote was called for if he was really as torn as he is now claiming.

Pressure on M4yhem to get more responses from him to make sure he was not scum. But then a couple of people go and lynch him before anybody else has a chance to even say a word.

2. If al is scum, he's playing it brilliantly.

etc. etc.

So you're saying I'm brilliant scum, yay. I just find it interesting how at first you make it seem like an uncertainty that I'm scum, and as you go on, you immediately make it a sure thing so that when I do turn up town, you can call "If statement" on it.

And you also mention how the 'common tactic' I'm using I am using in a way that scum doesn't use it in, and you still don't even seem to consider the fact that you could be mistaken and that I could be town.

[M4yhem]

I find this somewhat confusing. Suspicion on Mith seems to have sprung up from almost nowhere. I think I'm missing something; can somebody explain what the basis for the case against him is? I'm not sure if Mith is town or not; I could go either way on him, really.

Al- Since when have I needed to be pressured to talk? Why did you vote for me just before deadline and then ask for the deadline to be upheld? What made you so sure I was scum that you were willing to deadline lynch me?

As for the townie claim, it's interesting. I always assume that scum will claim a power role, because it tends to be a good tactic. So your claim makes you look a little more town in my eyes.

[al_kohaulec]

You didn't need pressure to talk. It was pressure to talk based off of being in a certain situation to get a good judgement on what your alignment was. It was the type of content I was looking for, not the presence of any.

I didn't vote you

just

before deadline, I did it some time before, and your most recent posts at the time of the vote were looking scummy. If you want me to post them I'll have to get to that hopefully tomorrow (which might be too late) because I'm tired now and have to get some work done.

Why do you think I wanted to deadline lynch you? If I was willing to do that, why do you think I was upset that somebody jumped the gun and lynched you some time before the deadline?

[CrashTextDummie]

Question right back at you. For what purpose did you ask that question? It has the smell of "trap" all over it. It looks like you're trying to make me more responsible for his lynch than I actually am, seeing as I was not even one of the

six

people who were voting him at the time of his being lynched, and that I did not fully agree with his lynch by the end of Day One. I certainly wasn't all-out against it, seeing as he could very well have

been

scum with that type posting, but I was certainly veering away from it.

I wanted to hear your own take on your involvement in the M4yhem wagon, and since I wasn't straight-forward about it, I guess you could call it a "trap".

All the people you've attacked today were a part of it, and yet I feel that you are looking in the wrong place. In my opinion, the M4yhem wagon was a bad one to begin with, which strongly implicates to me that there was scum among those who pushed it.

I don't like how you try to cast a bad light on me here. On one hand, you acknowledge that you (and Mith) were pushing M4yhem the most, on the other hand you accuse me of "trying to make you more responsible than you are". Let it be said that I don't think being responsible for a mislynch is in itself a scumtell, and conceding to be responsible for a mislynch is actually more of a towntell to me. So while I wasn't trying to make you responsible (it's clear to me that you were to some extent), I wanted to know how responsible you feel yourself.

Your answer sounded honest enough to me, but the fact that you felt attacked by this question makes me uneasy.

I will likely in hte future be bouncing my ideas exclusively off of both PJ and Pablito.

I don't like this at all. It's very narrow-minded for a town-player and an excellent way for a scum-player to hide behind the actions of others. I know this is your playstyle, but it is a bad one and it only benefits your scum-play. I strongly suggest you change it.

1. This is directed at CTD. One of the reasons you gave for voting me was post 507. I've responded to that. I am wondering what you think about al's posts 481 and 499. al is actually claiming he was leaning toward someone else, in a close vote near the deadline. Why was he still voting for M4yhem, then? Surely an unvote was called for if he was really as torn as he is now claiming.

They make sense in the context of posts like 437 and 449, in which he basically said the same thing.

There are a lot of people who think I am scum, and a lot of people who think mith is scum. I am curious and would like to see where everybody stands on the two of us (PJ, at the very least this can give us important info later in the game after I'm dead). And do you have anything against lynching Mith before me?

No, I don't.

Did I miss any questions?

[Thok]

Given that I believe that M4yhem is as much responsible for his own lynch as anybody else (prepares to be bombarded by verbal attack by M4yhem about how he wasn' scummy), I suspect that there's at most 1 scum on his lynch. Maybe 2. The fact that scum chose to nightkill somebody on the M4yhem wagon rather than somebody off the M4yhem wagon supports this.

I've been feeling like a

vote CTD

for a while, so it's time to do it.

[Thestatusquo]

Given that I believe that M4yhem is as much responsible for his own lynch as anybody else (prepares to be bombarded by verbal attack by M4yhem about how he wasn' scummy)

I agree with this statement. M4yhems lynch, to me, was not brought on by a scum orchestrated bad lynch, in my opinion, it was brought on by a pro town player acting like scum when he wasn't. I felt, at least, very confident with my vote up until the lynch scene happened.

I suspect that there's at most 1 scum on his lynch. Maybe 2. The fact that scum chose to nightkill somebody on the M4yhem wagon rather than somebody off the M4yhem wagon supports this.

This makes little sense to me, considering what you just said. If scum knew that the lynch seemed good to the town, and m4yhem was indeed acting in a very scummy manner, it would seem very likely to me that they would take the easy lynch. Now, the unfortunate part, is that regardless of that, I don't think there's really any information to be found from who was on that wagon, not yet, anyway, because I think it seemed like it was a good lynch to most people. Theres a possibility that looking at where people jumped on could help us, but I wouldn't expect to be scraping scum off that bandwagon.

Question right back at you. For what purpose did you ask that question? It has the smell of "trap" all over it. It looks like you're trying to make me more responsible for his lynch than I actually am, seeing as I was not even one of the

six

people who were voting him at the time of his being lynched, and that I did not fully agree with his lynch by the end of Day One. I certainly wasn't all-out against it, seeing as he could very well have

been

scum with that type posting, but I was certainly veering away from it.

I don't like this post at all. PJ was pushing m4yhem, and it was reasonable for CTD to ask him. I especially don't like how he EXPLICITELY mentions that he was not actually on the wagon, as if he had specifically stayed off of it, in order to use this defense. I also think the statement that he was 'veering' away from the mayhem lynch is hard to believe, and a very convienient, and easy thing for scum to breadcrumb at the end of the day. I think the writing was on the wall, and PJ knew it, so he stayed off the wagon, and expressed his ambivelance.

Un/Vote: PJ

[petroleumjelly]

Uh-hunh.

TSQ, how large a role do you think you had in

solidifying

M4yhem's lynch from yesterday?

Before you answer this question, I suggest you isolate your posts, and then tell me what you think.

[M4yhem]

Why do you think I wanted to deadline lynch you? If I was willing to do that, why do you think I was upset that somebody jumped the gun and lynched you some time before the deadline?

You voted for me thu the 7th, when the current deadline was then dec the 9th. I hadn’t claimed, and many people were lurking. You then asked, in the same post quoted below, for the deadline to be kept, which would have left me with two days to claim, and two days for people to get off me had they wanted to. Doesn’t seem much like you cared about what I had to say.

As for the being upset thing, that’s easily faked online.

I'd hate to be supporting abandoning the game, but I agree that we need to go to night, progress the game. I do not want to see a deadline extension. I honestly don't know/remember why we were voting CES (or whoever), and I'm unsure between Mith and M4yhem. M4yhem I've mostly been unsure of because I can never tell if he's being scummy or if I'm just being annoyed by his playstyle, but I think for now he's my best bet for scum.

Vote: M4yhem

Thok- Bah. I was in no way responsible for my own lynch. I admit that my playstyle is scummy, but I provided you with plenty of evidence that this is the way I play as town, in the form of past games. If you didn’t bother to read up on me, that’s not my fault, and your attempts to pass the buck make me suspicious of you (so what’s new?).
You even modded a game with me in it, which must have given you some idea of the way I play.

I don’t see how the nightkill can be used as evidence. Only scum know for sure why Norinel died. Maybe they were trying to get us to think the people on the bandwagon were town? Who knows?

TSQ- How did I act like scum? I know I suggested no-lynch, but I had good reasons at the time, which I explained.

[Thok]

M4yhem-the last time I made a "X got himself lynched by acting scummy" argument (or at least the last one I can remember) was this post day 1 in Jelly Mafia.

I was town then, and the only scum on the Vyolynce lynch was viper, and only because town yelled at him to vote somebody.

Scum like lynching people. But they also like letting other people do their lynching for them. I don't believe all the people on your lynch are innocent (like I said, there could be 1 or maybe 2 scum on your wagon), but you shouldn't believe that everybody off your wagon is protown either.

[Thestatusquo]

Uh-hunh.

TSQ, how large a role do you think you had in

solidifying

M4yhem's lynch from yesterday?

Before you answer this question, I suggest you isolate your posts, and then tell me what you think.

I had a large role in lynching m4yhem. I thought he was scum, and pushed him accordingly, including having my vote on him and posting a case against him. You, on the other hand, did niether of these things, and instead pushed other people in his direction, which to me has the feel of staying off of a wagon you knew was bad to make yourself look better, and to cast aspersions on the people on the wagon, two things which you have done.

[petroleumjelly]

I had a large role in lynching m4yhem. I thought he was scum, and pushed him accordingly, including having my vote on him and posting a case against him. You, on the other hand, did niether of these things,...

Wrong on both counts. I did post a case against M4yhem (almost as soon as he entered the game), and I did vote him. After Pooky interrogated him, and I got a better grip on M4yhem's play, I became less suspicious of him. That's how mafia works. If I chose one person to push on and never relented, I would not be much of a mafia player. I push players to see reactions and others' reactions.

and instead pushed other people in his direction, which to me has the feel of staying off of a wagon you knew was bad to make yourself look better, and to cast aspersions on the people on the wagon, two things which you have done.

Really? Please show me where I "pushed other people in his direction". I could not know whether or not M4yhem was a "bad lynch" yesterday, hence why I had to probe around. Furthermore, yes: I am going to be more than a little suspicious of people who finished off M4yhem, especially in such an unceremonious manner as yesterday. The fact that I was not voting for him at the time of the lynch certainly doesn't put me anywhere in the clear whatsoever, and that was not what I was arguing: I was stating that the fact that I had originally pushed M4yhem during a time I thought he was scummy does not make

me

scummy, and I was not pleased that CTD's question seemed to be pointed at me towards making that exact impression, as if he were trying to make me more responsible for the lynch than I actually was.

[M4yhem]

Thok- Just because you were right in that game and can prove it with quotes, doesn't mean you are right in this.
Also, you seem to think that I think all the scum were on my bandwagon. Not so. As I said before, I think at most 2 scum were on that wagon. The problem is I don't know which two, so everyone who voted for me is suspect.

Maybe we should look at who pushed for a ces lynch as well, since he's another confirmed townie?

[Kelly Chen]

Vote Count

3 - al_kohaulec (M4yhem, pablito, mith)
2 - mith (CrashTextDummie, al_kohaulec)
1 - CrashTextDummie (Thok)
1 - petroleumjelly (Thestatusquo)

not voting: petroleumjelly, LuckayLuck

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch!

Tentative deadline for

Wednesday, Jan 24

. Most votes gets it.

[mith]

Pressure on M4yhem to get more responses from him to make sure he was not scum. But then a couple of people go and lynch him before anybody else has a chance to even say a word.

I don't buy this. You don't vote for someone (or leave your vote on) to make sure he isn't scum. You vote for someone because you think he

is

scum. Because he's your "best bet for scum" (437). The way you talk about your part in yesterday's lynch today just isn't supported by your posts those last two pages.

I just find it interesting how at first you make it seem like an uncertainty that I'm scum, and as you go on, you immediately make it a sure thing

When I start a paragraph with an "if" statement, the hypothetical is often implicit in the rest of that paragraph. I don't think I made it a sure thing, though at this point I believe pretty strongly that you are scum. I'm not sure what you find interesting about that.

so that when I do turn up town, you can call "If statement" on it.

Does this make sense to anyone else? I'm making it (al being scum) a sure thing so that when he turns up town I can bring up how unsure I was?

(Note that your phrasing here assumes I am scum, just as my statement about your behavior assumes you are. Wording like this is common in Mafia games, whatever the alignment of the player, and that you are choosing to bring it up now suggests you are grasping at straws since you don't have anything else to say.)

And you also mention how the 'common tactic' I'm using I am using in a way that scum doesn't use it in,

Eh?

and you still don't even seem to consider the fact that you could be mistaken and that I could be town.

See above. I've considered that you could be town. But I don't

believe

that you are town.

(I'll also note that in 629 I brought up, again, that he has presented very little reason for his vote, and continues to ignore my responses. But instead of responding to that, he chose this to talk about?)

They make sense in the context of posts like 437 and 449, in which he basically said the same thing.

Not really. al said in those posts that he was unsure (while adding his vote, 437), but he never gave the impression that he was "leaning on changing [his] vote" (499). (And 499 doesn't match up with 529, either.)

(Oh, and in 499, he used TBH

and

honestly. Case closed!)

So, more directly: what do you see as the difference between my 507 and al's 499?

[al_kohaulec]

o.O oh.... I thought deadline was

this

wednesday. I was wondering why Kelly hasn't closed the thread yet, guess I'm still alive.

Hmm...

[Thok]

Wait, what? Assuming that you did think the deadline was Wednesday, how could you not have any sense of urgency with respect to being deadline lynched? I mean, you weren't even at the level of making a "Looks like this is my last post, go town" sort of comment.

Massive FOS Alko

[Thestatusquo]

Wait, what? Assuming that you did think the deadline was Wednesday, how could you not have any sense of urgency with respect to being deadline lynched? I mean, you weren't even at the level of making a "Looks like this is my last post, go town" sort of comment.

Massive FOS Alko

Wouldn't that be a nul tell at best?

[Thok]

The point is that

nobody

should have that reaction to being close to a deadline lynch. Which means that anybody claiming to have that reaction is trying to fake having that specific reaction.

Protown players don't need to fake their reactions.

[Thestatusquo]

If he shouldn't be having that reaction as scum, why would be faking it as scum? You're stretching.