Micro 181: Everyone's being watched (Game Over)

[Does Bo Know]

/confirm

[Does Bo Know]

That's start.

Policy lynch on Fuzzy activate!

VOTE: fuzzybutternut

@Miss Destroyer: It's a hydra of Marangal and...?

[Does Bo Know]

Oh okay, makes sense.

[Does Bo Know]

I've been skimming.

UNVOTE: fuzzybutternut
VOTE: Zionite

That's L-1. No one fucking hammer yet.

More detailed reads later tonight.

[Does Bo Know]

What's wrong with the vote?

[Does Bo Know]

Pressure, thought it would help more in the event someone more active came to question you later.

Why does it bother you that I put you at L-1 now?

[Does Bo Know]

Actually, I don't know why you're bothered, so let me ask this:

Why does it matter if I rushed to vote you without detailing my reads yet?

[Does Bo Know]

110 is bad bad bad

Alright, I'm at a laptop now and it's time to post reads and explanations.

Give me some time.

[Does Bo Know]

Soooo I lied. I’m doing this catch-up post style, with reads at the end. Feel free to ask questions about those reads if you don’t understand them.

Fuzzy’s 24 right after Horus’s 22 seems off.

26...that doesn’t look like scum hopping on a wagon yet but okay.

32 is bad. Horus is asking the first serious question of the game and Zionite tries to shoot it down. Horus’s vote doesn’t look over-justified at all.

34 also disagree. Horus doesn’t look like he’s overreacting.

38: He’s not flailing. Jesus.

45: Wow, that was really quick.

49: Eh. Wisdom normally asks questions like that, so I don’t agree with the vote.

53 and 54 I agree with.

Zionite misses Fuzzy’s point on this page. Fuzzy’s point is, that Zionite’s sole vote on a lurker will not make the lurker post more, as a sole vote isn’t very good pressure.

59 looks like subtly accusing Fuzzy of being scum. Ugh.

Yeah, but 64 is wrong actually. You can get more votes on a wagon without getting a lynch. Granted, a

sole

vote on a player will not apply the pressure he’s looking for, so I think it is a useless vote, but wagons =/= lynches.

65: ^^^

71 is a good catch-up. Pretty much follows my thought process.

76: Dammit Fuzzy, you’re being stubborn. And I thought I had some sort of townread on you.

79 is more scummy scum-scum posting. He legitimately thinks that his vote on Grimgroove helped pressure him, when it didn’t. Literally, Grim’s posting wasn’t very affected by Zionite’s vote, and Grim got over the vote once he saw it was just because he was lurking. Then he unvotes when given an answer. Which is what I predicted would happen, but then he doesn’t place a vote anywhere, after thinking a sole vote on a player provides pressure? Ugh.

80: I don’t like this either. He ignores the vote on him, and instead posts something to Zionite. I feel like Wisdom could be ignoring it because he doesn’t want to “overreact” to Grim.

85: Except Zionite is probably just pretending his activity is meaningful. So apparently that’s working to appease you, Grim.

89: Not going after Fuzzy because he feels it’ll draw more attention to him? Doing it after the wagon blows over? Scum scum.

And again, don’t see why the rush with the vote is bad. It’s not like I hammered.

95: To prevent accidental quickhammers, I either

bold a statement

saying it’s L-1, or make an individual post that clearly states it’s L-1. Soooo if someone still does, it means they aren’t paying that close attention to the game. It’s also telling depending on whether the wagoned player flips scum or not.

99 UUUGGGHHHH I wanna call this a scum post but it’s Rach, and I can’t read her in any game well ever.

100: Bad vote. Normally I’d be fine with that reason from a player that’s active (I was actually looking to draw attention with my L-1 vote), but from Grim, who’s first real game-related post also didn’t contain much explanation

because he was away

...I just don’t like that.

Anyway, here’s why 110 was bad to me: I was going to make details about it, but Mala didn’t think I was. Third player to say something about it, so it gives Mala an option to switch to me. When he says he likes where his vote is already, my gut tells me it could be scum staying on the bigger wagon, hoping a lynch could occur, and if Zionite’s lynch doesn’t happen, he can switch to me. And if the lynch does happen, and Zionite flips town, he can assume I’m scum based on that.

That’s all gut, though. In fact, I’m more confident Mala is town if Zionite flips scum, and I am confident Mala is scum if Zionite flips town.

114: Fuzzy’s still VI here, but not scum to me yet. His town play usually consists of thinking he’s scumhunting. And here, he could be thinking he’s scumhunting, but it’s too early to tell. I feel like pursuing Fuzzy won’t be helpful right now.

I still like my Zionite vote.

Town

Horus (actually attempts to get the game going quickly with questions)

Null

(haven’t posted enough for me to read them yet)
RachMarie
Miss Destroyer

Neutral

(have posted enough, but can’t determine alignment yet)
Mala (for the aforementioned 110 theory, would depend on Zionite’s flip.)
Fuzzy (from what I can tell, he isn’t scum right now. And that’s saying something, considering I read him as scum, like, all the time.)
Wisdom (his questions are Wisdom-like, but I can’t determine alignment based on his statements alone.)

Scum

Zionite (pretty sure I outlined this in my catch-up)
Grimgroove (only leaning, but still mentioning him in this pile)

Feel free to ask questions. I’m caught up now, so I should be more active for quite a while.

[Does Bo Know]

Meh, hammers with less than 4 pages suck. L-1...well...

I'm actually unsure how I feel about L-1 in some games. I felt L-1 on Zionite in this case was worth it, because 1.) Zionite is probably scum, and 2.) it made my presence known in this game without being here the whole time. Adds a fresh perspective, doesn't it?

PEdit: If you think it's indicative I'm scum

besides

the tiny gut-scum feeling I got from 110, feel free to point out the misrep. Otherwise, you're wasting your time.

[Does Bo Know]

So

I'm using fakeness and freakishness as a scum tell? Can you tell me where I did that?

Also, mind summarizing what you don't like about it? Considering you got irritated when I didn't deliver details immediately (oh look more hypocrisy), I think I get the right to ask this question.

[Does Bo Know]

@Mala:

Okay, so when I didn't post a case immediately, did you start to think I didn't actually have a case? Or do I still have that wrong?

As far as "lining up lynches," in my catch-up post:

"That’s all gut, though. In fact, I’m more confident Mala is town if Zionite flips scum, and I am confident Mala is scum if Zionite flips town."

was supposed to say

"That’s all gut, though. In fact, I’m more confident Mala is town if Zionite flips scum,

than

I am confident Mala is scum if Zionite flips town."

I was gonna tell you that you were misrepping, but I went back to check. So yeah, Malatown/Zionscum is more likely to me than Malascum/Ziontown.

[Does Bo Know]

Grim explained it pretty well; there's no way I can defend against an interpretive argument. I can deny it, but I can't prove it wrong because it's subjective. It's awfully convenient for DBK.

I still don't like how the details promised with his vote didn't actually exist; he was going to leave it there regardless of my response.

Except in my catch-up post, I explain why certain posts by you were bad. Soooooo the details are there. And I've checked, I'm pretty sure my points against you aren't about overreacting to things.

If you want, open a tab, pull up your own ISO, and follow along with my catch-up post to see exactly which posts of yours I outline, if that makes it any easier.
---
BTW, before we get any further, of course points are going to be "subjective" or "interpretive" when you play Mafia. Anyone that thinks they can make an "objective" argument without knowing the other player's alignment is just kidding themselves. It all just depends on the certain situation the players are in. So sometimes overreacting is a scumtell in certain situations. Sometimes it isn't. It's why we can't catch scum every day.
---
And my point was, that I don't like trying to read Rach because she normally likes to make pointless points as either alignment, from what I remember.

However, I read this again:

If anyone hammers right now without doing INTENT and giving you time to respond claim and so on, Zionite, then we would definitely be looking at him or her hardcore on D 2.

On page 5, I highly,

highly

doubt scum would derphammer Zionite if Zionite flipped scum, so therefore I'd highly doubt the derphammer-er would be looked at hardcore.

So I'm basically throwing Rach in the scum pile instead of the null one now, because there's no reason a derphammer at this point would have us looking that hard at the derphammer-er unless Zionite flipped town.

[Does Bo Know]

Also, to add to the point of my last post: If Zionite flips scum, then Rach is probably town.

And as much as it's going to make Mala happy, yeah, if Zionite were derphammered at this point and he flipped town, Rach would be a little more suspicious to me. More suspicious than Mala would be.

Might as well get rid of the comma too since we're rewriting what you've said entirely.

Yeah, you're right, the comma shouldn't have gone before "than," and I'm sorry for that.

Except I'm pretty sure that in context, the thing I "rewrote entirely" would make more sense coming right after, "That's all gut, though. In fact..." because that introduction shows doubt in my belief.

[Does Bo Know]

@Wisdom: Is Horus still your top scumread. If not, who is your top scumread, and could you give some reasons why?

[Does Bo Know]

I'm typing up a response in a Word document.

But I'm just gonna say that using "points" to determine alignment in a point of view

that isn't yours

insults me.

PEdit: I'll be far from digging my own grave.

[Does Bo Know]

You don't know how I quantify posts towards the scumminess of other players. You quantify them on

your

standards, and

not mine.

[Does Bo Know]

Spoiler: Responses to Grimgroove's Purple Haze

Fuzzy’s 24 right after Horus’s 22 seems off.

Agreed. Note this is negative statement 1 about Fuzzy (will be keeping count).

Wouldn't put a negative there. Also, Fuzzy does state later that a "town response" would be to ignore...something. I don't know exactly where, but it's in his ISO, and ignoring Horus's 22 could be his own interpretation of a "town response."

26...that doesn’t look like scum hopping on a wagon yet but okay.

"But okay" meaning you condone votes for false reasons? Miss Destroyer Negative 1

I disagreed with the vote, but again, wouldn't put a negative there just because I disagreed

32 is bad. Horus is asking the first serious question of the game and Zionite tries to shoot it down. Horus’s vote doesn’t look over-justified at all.

Zionite Negative 1

This is one of Horus's questions that I liked because it got the game out of RVS, and it looked like it could give Fuzzy some pressure. Zionite looked scummy for it because it was indeed the only serious comment about the game thus far.

34 also disagree. Horus doesn’t look like he’s overreacting.

Why do you think fuzzy chooses to interpret it this way? Assuming this is a negative statement, this puts Fuzzy at 2

Note: Grim likes assuming I think people look scummy because I disagree with them.

38: He’s not flailing. Jesus.

Zionite: 2

Refer to above

45: Wow, that was really quick.

Zionite: 3

Meh, I guess this is sorta scummy, but not enough to give Zionite another scum point.

49: Eh. Wisdom normally asks questions like that, so I don’t agree with the vote.

Don't see how I could know what Wisdom normally asks, but the main point of that mainly RVS vote (at the time) was to show how easily his own argument can be used against him. Post 35 postulates a universal wisdom, yet Wisdom decided to take it personally (despite the funny name coincidence). If there's any overreaction that can be demonstrated in this topic, it's this one. Grimgroove negative 1

It's called a meta search. Wisdom literally has links to his meta in his signature. I'd also like to disagree because your vote shouldn't have been RVS if there was a reason for it, and it's certainly pretty late for you to come in with an RVS vote when so much had happened already. Also didn't think you were scummy for this.

53 and 54 I agree with.

1 positive for fuzzybutternut (putting fuzzy at 1 negative) and 1 positive for Malakittens

It's some more positive points for agreeing with players? lolno.

Zionite misses Fuzzy’s point on this page. Fuzzy’s point is, that Zionite’s sole vote on a lurker will not make the lurker post more, as a sole vote isn’t very good pressure.

Is missing that point scummy? Is making the point townish? I also disagree with your synopsis of the discussion, post 56clearly shows fuzzybutternut turning a "vote on a lurker" into an "easy lynch". In my experience, they are not easy lynches. This entire discussion and the allegations contained in it are based on a false assumption. As far as the "vote a lurker" is concerned, the only thing actually taking place, I think that trying to activate people is a townish thing to do, no matter which method or whether or not it works. A vote is one of the most intuitive methods to do so within the set-up of maffia games.

THANK GOD you're actually realizing that

you don't know

whether things I say mean I call it townish or scummish. That also wasn't a synopsis of the entire discussion. I was just saying, that Zionite was misunderstanding something Fuzzy said. And I still agree that sole votes aren't that great of pressure. Sole votes have to happen of course, but Zionite was giving himself much more credit than he should have for voting you.

59 looks like subtly accusing Fuzzy of being scum. Ugh.

Why is it a bad thing to accuse fuzzy? Negative for Zionite 4

NO that's clearly not my point. He's

subtly

doing it, as opposed to

outright

doing it. Something I frown upon on players: if you clearly think someone is scummy, say it, instead of trying to beat around the bush. And it's also a problem because I haven't seen where Zionite could possibly consider Fuzzy scummy for scum in any of his posts thus far.

Yeah, but 64 is wrong actually. You can get more votes on a wagon without getting a lynch. Granted, a

sole

vote on a player will not apply the pressure he’s looking for, so I think it is a useless vote, but wagons =/= lynches.

Fail to see your point here. You're referring to a quote with a couple of dots under it, and I don't see how your comment relates to the quote. I'm assuming another negative for Zionite 5

It wasn't just the post, but the argument about wagons not being the same as lynches. Just because someone has a wagon, doesn't mean that everyone on the wagon wants a lynch at that time. Wagons give more pressure (which is another reason why I put Zionite at L-1, but apparently Zionite hadn't reacted to that, so whatevs). But basically, this does

not

mean Zionite is scummy just because they disagree on game theory.

65: ^^^

Horus positive 1. But this is one of the instances where I don't necessarily agree. Nobody (except for RachMarie) knew me, and everyone reacts differently, even to single votes. A single vote tells you someone is noticing you, and this kind of attention does manage to garner reactions from time to time. If not immediately, defintely on the longer term. Zionite's priority was not to garner support for a wagon, but to get a reaction from me.

My point here was that voting for a lurker will, most likely, not pressure the lurker to post any faster. Did Zionite's vote on you make you want to post what you wanted to say any faster? If not, then that's exactly my point: Zionite's vote on you wouldn't have made a difference, yet Zionite believes that he made a much bigger difference.

71 is a good catch-up. Pretty much follows my thought process.

Putting Grimgroove at 0 again.

Normally, yeah, I slightly town read people that follow my processes.

76: Dammit Fuzzy, you’re being stubborn. And I thought I had some sort of townread on you.

Despite fuzzy already being at minus 1 at this point, you claim to have a townread on him. Based on what? Anyway, this puts him at 2 negatives.

Townread on Fuzzy because of his activity early in the game: Fuzzy is generally the type to try to scumhunt, no matter how stupid it looks. Later in the game, though, his scumhunting looks less and less prominent. This is exactly why points are stupid in the first place.

79 is more scummy scum-scum posting. He legitimately thinks that his vote on Grimgroove helped pressure him, when it didn’t. Literally, Grim’s posting wasn’t very affected by Zionite’s vote, and Grim got over the vote once he saw it was just because he was lurking. Then he unvotes when given an answer. Which is what I predicted would happen, but then he doesn’t place a vote anywhere, after thinking a sole vote on a player provides pressure? Ugh.

Zionite 6. Why is him thinking that his vote made a difference scummy? As town it's basically the only pressure tool you have, so it's quite a depressing thing to automatically assume it doesn't. In this case, you're right, it didn't, but I don't see the point of blaming him for trying and for believing in what he was trying to do.

It's scummy because he's saying it made a difference multiple times, as to make sure people know he's being a townie by being useful. I thought he was overstating his useful vote on you (which, IMO, wasn't useful) too

seem

townie to everyone. Also, townies have

words

besides votes to pressure people.

80: I don’t like this either. He ignores the vote on him, and instead posts something to Zionite. I feel like Wisdom could be ignoring it because he doesn’t want to “overreact” to Grim.

Wisdom negative 1. I agree and am still waiting for a response to all of my questions to Wisdom. He did not respond to any of them.

Yeah, I guess this would be sort of a scum point. My most recent question is an attempt to see if he only responds to questions that require little effort to answer.

85: Except Zionite is probably just pretending his activity is meaningful. So apparently that’s working to appease you, Grim.

How do you "pretend" meaningfulness? It is one of the things that is unpretendable, or if it is only on the short term. He's got me convinced with his constructive activity, just like you did yourself with your catch-up post. As long as he keeps it meaningful I see no point in lynching him, and if he's pretending we'll notice soon enough. I'd call this an interpretive opinion. Zionite 7

Firstly, you put Zionite at 7 even though it's the same exact fucking point I made for you to put him at 6, so that's stupid. He's overplaying his meaningfulness. If you could point out 2 good examples of useful things he's done this game, post them and I'll try to look at them again. I'm pretty confident I won't be swayed though.

89: Not going after Fuzzy because he feels it’ll draw more attention to him? Doing it after the wagon blows over? Scum scum.

That's not what that says. What do you think of the argument that he puts forward about leads not getting any traction when the main suspect is advertising it? Zionite 8

I don't understand the question. But I was focusing on the last green section of text in this post; not only was he asking me a question, but he responded to your points as well in that post, remember? The way I see it: a good townie shouldn't have to make decisions to make sure that he/she himself/herself looks townie. The townie should just do what he/she can to hunt scum, and that if it's a real townie, he/she can easily explain the reasons if the town is humble enough. So yeah, this is another reason I like Zionite for scum.

And again, don’t see why the rush with the vote is bad. It’s not like I hammered.

Why was it good?

Added pressure, made my presence known, confidence that Zionite was scum at the time.

95: To prevent accidental quickhammers, I either

bold a statement

saying it’s L-1, or make an individual post that clearly states it’s L-1. Soooo if someone still does, it means they aren’t paying that close attention to the game. It’s also telling depending on whether the wagoned player flips scum or not.

Is someone not paying close attention to the game a neglectable risk? And how does the last sentence add up with the rest? What would be telling? Your L-1 vote? Or the hammer? Telling in what way? If the hammerer didn't pay attention as you assume it wouldn't be telling in his case.

Some people vote other players at L-1, and don't count the votes and realize that they hammered. The last sentence adds up, because some derphammers are useful depending on what the lynched person flips. If they flip scum, it's highly unlikely that the accidental derphammer-er is scum, since scum would usually be more likely to make sure the partner stays alive. If they flip town, then yeah the derphammer-er would be heavily looked at, maybe scum, but not for sure. I still feel like I didn't answer your question correctly, though, and if I didn't I'm sorry, try asking it again. :embarrassed:

99 UUUGGGHHHH I wanna call this a scum post but it’s Rach, and I can’t read her in any game well ever.

RachMarie 1

At the time I made this comment, yeah, it was pretty fluffy to say something like this, but it was also a small warning that Rach shouldn't be read as scum simply because her playstyle may not strike well with others (including myself). However, shouldn't have been a point for Rach.

100: Bad vote. Normally I’d be fine with that reason from a player that’s active (I was actually looking to draw attention with my L-1 vote), but from Grim, who’s first real game-related post also didn’t contain much explanation

because he was away

...I just don’t like that.

Grimgroove minus 1. How was I not active? You just complemented my first real-game related post 71 in this very list.
Also, just for the sake of it, let's assume I was the perfect player in your eyes, obvtown and all that. Let's just pretend. Could you respond to the arguments instead of making false statements about the person making them?

It's not that you weren't active. It's that your first post barely had any content in it because of limited time, yes? But even though I voted L-1 without explaining (with my first post having barely any content), it was because I liked the idea of putting Zionite at L-1, but I didn't have the resources to say why. You assumed I didn't have any reasons because I hadn't shared them yet, and

that's literally the only scummy thing you had against me at this point.

It irritates me that you pride yourself on thinking people that interpret "fakeness" and such incorrectly are scum, yet when you interpret my posts as "lack of a case against Zionite" when that's exactly what it

wasn't

, it's okay.

Anyway, here’s why 110 was bad to me: I was going to make details about it, but Mala didn’t think I was. Third player to say something about it, so it gives Mala an option to switch to me. When he says he likes where his vote is already, my gut tells me it could be scum staying on the bigger wagon, hoping a lynch could occur, and if Zionite’s lynch doesn’t happen, he can switch to me. And if the lynch does happen, and Zionite flips town, he can assume I’m scum based on that.

Mala back to 0. I agree with this statement.

That’s all gut, though. In fact, I’m more confident Mala is town if Zionite flips scum, and I am confident Mala is scum if Zionite flips town.

Why single them out as an evident "non-pair"?

Why not? What's the problem?

114: Fuzzy’s still VI here, but not scum to me yet. His town play usually consists of thinking he’s scumhunting. And here, he could be thinking he’s scumhunting, but it’s too early to tell. I feel like pursuing Fuzzy won’t be helpful right now.

When will it be? Fuzzy minus 3

Who knows? But here's the thing: like you, who assumes some players are scummy but keep them around because they'd normally dig their own grave later, I do the same thing to VI's. Fuzzy is a VI to me. See, again, another reason you putting points on people based on my viewpoints is stupid: you don't know my viewpoints.

I still like my Zionite vote.

Given this whole list is mainly a tunnel interspersed with occasional unconclusive comments on any other players I guess this doesn't come as a surprise to anyone.

I don't really see myself as tunneling, but the truth is, I don't have a lot of town reads so far, or a lot of reads at all. So it may look like I'm tunneling Zionite, when in truth no one else had been excessively scummy.

For people that don't want to read this shitfest, I was telling Grimgroove why his "points" that he assigned were not very good assignments, because he's assuming that pretty much every opinion I give about a player requires an investment of a point. If you don't want to read through the shitfest, I don't blame you, so if you happen to ask me questions that were only answered in the shitfest, I will reply to you normally.

Horus is town because of his first question to get us out of RVS (town-motivated), and because I agree with his reasons for every action he's done so far (town-motivated because I'm town).

Also, Grimgroove: if you think Zionite is town because he's active right now, I want you to ISO him and look at the multiple times he assumes there are overreactions and overjustifications, which could be under your criteria for your scumlist thus far.

My case against Zionite:
- Accuses Horus of being scum because he believes Horus is overjustifying a vote, even though Horus's vote and question about Fuzzy got us out of RVS, and the question didn't look worthless.
- 59 looks like he's trying to say Fuzzy is scum if Fuzzy were to keep defending his point, but doesn't follow through with that accusation. A fairly weak point, maybe I can ask Zionite exactly what he thinks of Fuzzy.
- He just looks like he's taking most of the credit for getting a read on Grimgroove, because of his sole vote, when from what I can tell in Grimgroove's early posts, the vote on Grimgroove didn't really have any impact.

I'm fairly certain that's enough to warrant my actions.

@Zionite: what are your thoughts on Fuzzy, and could you please tell me what you think his alignment is right now?

Did I miss anything? I'm sorry if I couldn't catch everything I needed to.

[Does Bo Know]

Oh wait, I thought I had posted this before 137. It's a good thing I still had it in a Word document:

More hypocrisy? Where was I hypocritical before?

Actually, it wasn’t more hypocrisy, but the point came up again: I hadn’t had time to make an efficient catch-up post. Yes, I had time to ask questions about recent events, but I did not have time to comment on everything like I had wanted, and if you

seriously

think it’s alignment-indicative, you’re not gonna do well here, pal.

And the way that I do catch-up posts, is laptop-friendly, not phone-friendly. And if you’re complaining because you can’t catch up properly on a phone because of how I post,

why am I not allowed to post less content from my phone

because it’s the same hassle that you fucking have with posting from your phone?

If you guys would’ve wanted a summary of things, I

might’ve

given them to you, depending on if I

for sure

had the time. But again, people jump to conclusions, assume that if I would’ve had a case on people, I would’ve said it, or some of it, at the time of my vote, but the truth is, I’m going to say this again, that

I voted L-1 early because I was confident Zionite was scum, the pressure could've helped in others' questioning of Zionite, and that it was exactly what I needed to do to make my presence more known.

[Does Bo Know]

So you think that scum would bus by quickhammering on page 4?

This is exactly my point. Page 10 or so, sure. But I doubt scum would've pushed that hard on page 4.

[Does Bo Know]

DBK- I said that a town response would be to ignore those who vote you without reason.
I can quote if you'd like.

Yeah, I know you said something like that.

Wisdom: If Rach is scum, I'm assuming you think Zionite is town?

[Does Bo Know]

I still am confident you're scum, Zionite. At the time of my L-1 vote, I was confident you were scum, and I still am.

Also, I'm fairly certain that I have the most organized case outline of Zionite. It's not inside a wall, it's actually in the post where I spoilered something. The only other points I've seen about Zionite are overreacting, and that's actually something I don't agree with as far as Zionite-scum goes.

So if you'd rather not read walls about that, you can look at what I have.

[Does Bo Know]

You actually haven't properly explained your whole Fuzzy read. Do you think Fuzzy is scum? Yes or no?

You have to understand, that your vote didn't mean shit as far as getting content from Grimgroove. And other that strutting around saying your vote was important, you've basically been complaining about your wagon.

You also haven't voted anyone else recently. Why's that?

[Does Bo Know]

Yeahhhhhhh I'm apparently not getting to you.

You're even thinking your vote saved us from a mislynch. Lolno. You're giving yourself way too much credit.

I'm fairly confident that you being proactive and scumhunting will remove votes from your wagon, more than trying to defend yourself will. You've said yourself that your wagon can't be defended, so why bother stalling when you could be scumhunting instead?

[Does Bo Know]

Well, sometimes you can't defend every point, Zionite.

You see, some points in cases will be at the discretion of the player. You could do all the convincing in the world, but sometimes it won't work. If every point in a scum case could be defended, then every player could defend themselves out of a wagon.

I view you as scum, and maybe the points I have against you are not under your control, or not-defendable. The thing is, if you're under a wagon and a lynch could be imminent, do what it takes to help town (or pretend to help town, if you're scum) the most, whether it be defend yourself, attempt to scumhunt, or if you're lynched, leave reads that you have so it can give us a better understanding.

[Does Bo Know]

Not tunnel vision.

But keep trying. Maybe the seventh time you tell me I'll believe it's tunnel vision?

This is a response to your rebuttal of my case on you, Zionite:
- Let me ask something simple for the first part: did you find Horus's over-justification scummy, yes or no?
- I didn't see how you obviously feel about Fuzzy at the time.
- I understand that you got a read and a reaction from Grimgroove like you wanted, but your vote literally didn't do anything to influence Grim's posting. I believe you're giving yourself too much credit for the little things you have done, and that everything else you have done hasn't been pro-town. Why do you believe defending yourself is more pro-town than scumhunting and pursuing others?

If you truly believe that you won't be lynched today, Zionite, then why are you so worried about your wagon still?

[Does Bo Know]

Good morning everyone.

I'm gonna spend some time tearing the large wall into pieces so it's less of a wall and more of responding only to the questions Grim left.

This will probably be the last game I get to though, so stay patient.

[Does Bo Know]

@Grim:

- I'm sorry for calling it "more hypocrisy" at the time. It was a mistake. I thought when I said that, that there was an instance in my catch-up that was different from the "second" instance, but there wasn't. My point was, that it still looked like hypocrisy to me. But this point isn't relevant to me anymore.

- If you didn't know I was posting from my phone, then yes, it probably gave the intention I was being vague between my L-1 vote and my catch-up post. But when I first said in 113 that I'm at my laptop, I thought it could've been inferred that I wasn't able to give a long enough post before then.

I'll say this now: mornings are my good times to respond to things at large from my laptop. I want to say that after hours, like around 5 pm CST, I'm usually not home, so I'll post simple questions or responses from my phone.

Okay, I'm about halfway done with responding to the wall. Just wanted to update in case Grim was still waiting.

[Does Bo Know]

@Grim: I removed certain parts of the wall that were irrelevant to my answers to your questions, but if you feel some parts shouldn't have been removed, feel free to include them. I feel like I did a good job, though.

Spoiler:

Also, Fuzzy does state later that a "town response" would be to ignore...something. I don't know exactly where, but it's in his ISO, and ignoring Horus's 22 could be his own interpretation of a "town response."

Do you agree with this take on a town response? Also, don't you find it odd that fuzzy's action would stem from an interpretation on "how to act as town", rather than from a natural reaction to things being discussed?

Not really, because someone shouldn't think of town responses to things based on their thoughts; they should think of town responses based on how the player interprets it, reacts to it, etc. Fuzzy always thinks that, but this is the first time that his ignoring a vote is a specific example of thinking that's how town responds. (Remember when my first vote was a policy lynch on Fuzzy? It's because I find him impossibly hard to read.)

Are we to assume you agreed with everything you did not mention? Duly noted though.

I like to point out my thoughts on things that I agree or disagree with, whether they determine alignment or not. Think of it like this: the catch-up summary I make is 90% based on my thoughts at the time of reading that post, as if I would've made a post in real-time at that time. (I say 90% because sometimes my catch-ups could be after a lynch and my thoughts would be altered based on a player's flip.)

This is one of Horus's questions that I liked because it got the game out of RVS, and it looked like it could give Fuzzy some pressure.

What do you make of fuzzy not answering these questions?

At first I would've thought it was scummy, but his interactions with Zionite made me feel like Fuzzy found that more important than answering an RVS question. Remember, Fuzzy thought the question was invalid later in the topic, and he probably thought that at the time, too.

Note: 34 was

Wisdom's

post, so I don't see why I should answer the question about Fuzzy thinking Horus is overreacting, when Fuzzy never said that in the first place.

38: He’s not flailing. Jesus.

The addition of he who died for our sins does hint at a certain difficulty to understand Zionite's stance. Same question as above: Do you think it's scummy that he's trying to construe Horus' reaction as flailing? Or do you see it as an honest interpretation that you happen not to agree with?

I just disagree with Zionite. I don't think it's scummy, because if it was, I would've said something in my summarized thoughts on why Zionite is scum. That's why the summary is there.

So, Zionite's reaction to Horus out-of-RVS-questions to fuzzybutternut are the only real argument we should remember from this segment. What do you think of other people's reactions to these questions?

Everyone active except Wisdom thought Horus was town for that shit. I think Horus is town for that shit. It's hard not to see Horus is town for that shit. I'm actually going to tell you right now: I'm not getting into details because that's going to be a chore and I highly doubt it's going to help advance the game forward.

49: Eh. Wisdom normally asks questions like that, so I don’t agree with the vote.
...

Did you meta search every player here? do you seriously expect other players to do this for the others?

Nope. I didn't expect you to meta search Wisdom when you made your vote, but when I say that Wisdom normally asks questions like that, you could either trust me, or go look for yourself at Wisdom's games. But if you wanted Wisdom lynched for being Wisdom, then yes, I would've expected you to meta search Wisdom first.

How do you feel about post 56?

I don't agree that Zionite was trying to turn it into a lynch. But...ugh, from anyone else, 56 would be scummy, but I don't like playing with Fuzzy because I can't read him. There's literally no better way to say that.

Normally, yeah, I slightly town read people that follow my processes.

Normally, but?

This is one of the instances where I slightly town-read you for following my processes up to that point.

Yeah, I guess this would be sort of a scum point. My most recent question is an attempt to see if he only responds to questions that require little effort to answer.

How did that work out?

It isn't. I really despise that Wisdom is asking someone else to do something he won't even do himself. I may vote Wisdom for that to pressure him to do more.

Why would there be a problem. I don't see any reason to call [Malakittens and Zionite] a "non-pair", and I am curious as to what your reasons to do so are. Why not just answer the question?

Because I thought I gave a decent answer when I first explained my thoughts on 110. But basically, if Zionite is scum, Malakittens probably isn't scum because she probably would've tried to derail the wagon on me (she literally said she would've voted me but liked her vote on Zionite better). If Zionite is town, Mala

could

be scum sticking to Zionite's wagon, giving reasons to stick to it that looked similar to what other players said. I only say

could

because that's how it felt gut-wise. The previous non-pairing of Malatown/Zionscum has actual logic to it.

It isn't as big as the walls previously, but chances are, you won't need to read it thoroughly if you don't want to. (I may refer others to this later if I need to.)

Also,
UNVOTE: Zionite
Here's the deal: if we remove the wagon from Zionite and his scumhunting afterward seems genuine, I'll leave Zionite alone. If his scumhunting still shows to be lacking, I'll pressure him back on with a vote again.

VOTE: Wisdom
He needs more pressure; thing is, yeah, he isn't answering every question, but when he asks Rach to give reads when Wisdom won't even give his own

when asked to

, that's a problem.

Grimgroove is asking a lot of questions with plenty of effort to make sure every detail is panned out. I'm also thinking Grimgroove is town.

...and now I have no strong scumreads.

[Does Bo Know]

I don't want to give them before Rach does, nope.

Would you give your reads after Rach does, then?

[Does Bo Know]

Helpful.

[Does Bo Know]

No reason to give your town-reads(which is what I mostly have) to scum.
You know who I scumread.

If you would've just said that, we wouldn't be in this situation. I know that some players don't like revealing town reads for that exact reason.

Is Rach your only scum read at the moment?

[Does Bo Know]

Okay. So you said earlier you don't like the Zionite wagon. Do you have a specific person or specific people in mind that you think are likely scum on Zionite's wagon?

[Does Bo Know]

Zionite you're down to 2 votes now.
Wanna start scumhunting?

^^Ninja'd

[Does Bo Know]

I think she needs more questioning. And pressure.

UNVOTE: Wisdom
VOTE: RachMarie

@Rach: Why did Zionite go from scummy to more townie in your reads? Why am I leaning town? Why do you think Fuzzy is a good player? Why did you warn us about Grim's join date? Why do you assume Wisdom is tunneling?

I personally think Rach did overreact to Wisdom's pressure. Rach assumes Wisdom is tunneling when I didn't see it that way. I'll wait for her to answer my questions.

[Does Bo Know]

@MissD: The answer is in a wall somewhere, I'll dig it out when I'm at a computer.

[Does Bo Know]

Because scum don't want to commit and just align their reads with what town seems to think at the time. For example town read on Horus. They leave everyone else unsure

so that they can do whatever they want later without contradicting.

We talked about this like 1 page ago.

We could say the same about your town reads.

That you'd never have to move a town read to a scum read and look suspicious for it, because you won't state the town reads in the first place.

[Does Bo Know]

Right.

So why isn't it scummy when you don't reveal town reads, if it's possible that you're not revealing them because you can change your "secret town reads" at any time?

[Does Bo Know]

I don't agree with most of Zionite's case on Fuzzy, and I'm pretty sure I know how Fuzzy's going to respond as far as thinking his vote served a greater purpose than Zionite's.

[Does Bo Know]

The fact you don't show us town reads means that we can't know whether you actually have town reads, or if you're doing exactly what you think Rach is doing: waiting for everyone else to do it first.

[Does Bo Know]

Yes.

Except you.

Which is exactly what you were trying to prevent in the first place, right? You wanted to make sure Rach gave her reads so that she couldn't falsify any town ones, but now that everyone else has reads, you have the chance to falsify town reads.

Am I wrong?

[Does Bo Know]

Holy shit, HD liked Bo for town and I agree with him though one thing catches my attention

"That’s all gut, though. In fact, I’m more confident Mala is town if Zionite flips scum, than I am confident Mala is scum if Zionite flips town."

I was gonna tell you that you were misrepping, but I went back to check. So yeah, Malatown/Zionscum is more likely to me than Malascum/Ziontown.

More reasoning to this if at all Possible? HD liked Zio scum, and he also left me a note saying he liked Mala scum and I'm agreeing with Mala-scum. alot of the stuff you are saying remind me of stuff HD left me when he stated his vote and his confidence in Zio scum is super similar to yours.

I said this in my most recent spoilered wall to Grimgroove:

Because I thought I gave a decent answer when I first explained my thoughts on 110. But basically, if Zionite is scum, Malakittens probably isn't scum because she probably would've tried to derail the wagon on me (she literally said she would've voted me but liked her vote on Zionite better). If Zionite is town, Mala could be scum sticking to Zionite's wagon, giving reasons to stick to it that looked similar to what other players said. I only say could because that's how it felt gut-wise. The previous non-pairing of Malatown/Zionscum has actual logic to it.

[Does Bo Know]

@Mala: That vote on MissD doesn't make

any

sense. You should've found it scummy in the first place, instead of following the same vote. Why would you follow the vote of someone you thought was scummy? By voting Zionite with MissD, you are basically supporting someone you think is scummy.

[Does Bo Know]

Got what wrong?

[Does Bo Know]

Oh, I did read that wrong, sorry.

I'll get to it later.

[Does Bo Know]

Okay, so I'm just gonna pretend that my post telling Mala it was a terrible vote shouldn't exist. Since I misunderstood that part.

[Does Bo Know]

I know this is going to sound stupid, but I'm fairly certain DBK is town, now.

Why would it sound stupid?

[Does Bo Know]

Because it's solely based off your last post.

Okay, yeah, that sounds stupid. Care to tell us why my last post makes me town to you?

Do you still think that Zionite is the scummiest player so far?

[Does Bo Know]

So what's you're read on Malakittens?

[Does Bo Know]

@fuzzy:

Funny. DBK admits he was wrong in a post and he becomes a town read for it. I do the same thing and I'm a mild scum read.. Does it make sense? Nope.

This is exactly why I asked the question.

Fuzzy's not trying to scumhunt much anymore. This is normally a good scum tell in his game.

[Does Bo Know]

@fuzzy:

Funny. DBK admits he was wrong in a post and he becomes a town read for it. I do the same thing and I'm a mild scum read.. Does it make sense? Nope.

My first vote was RVS.. You didn't have a problem with my second vote, but now apparently you bring that up. My third vote was an accidental misunderstanding which pinged a scum radar enough to warrant a vote.

Funny how you immediately try to defend yourself when I say that you are

probable

scum. Town doesn't do that.

You don't even get the point of my question, do you?

UNVOTE: whoever
VOTE: fuzzybutternut

[Does Bo Know]

@Mala: As far as the scum meta you asked for, I'm thinking of an ongoing game, sorry. Though he did flip in the one I'm thinking of, and it's the most recent scum flip I've seen from him.

His town game is outrageous though. He's usually very loud about his opinions, but the fact he's been ignoring things here and there about himself in this game, makes me feel like he's scum.

That's all I'm gonna answer tonight. I missed three pages of stuff already, it sucks that I don't get to post much during the normal evening.

[Does Bo Know]

Prod dodging, will most likely post tomorrow.

(This sucks because another catch-up post seems to be the best solution again. )

[Does Bo Know]

I come to start a catch-up post and Zionite is at L-1 again. This should be fun.

[Does Bo Know]

Oh God over 100 posts. Let’s go.

Honestly, most of this stuff (from my post where I voted Fuzzy) so far is stuff I don’t really need to pick out individually. Fuzzy is avoiding the point of Mala’s question about why he didn’t point something out earlier.

Zionite then throws in the fact that Fuzzy’s either scum or he’s bad. Didn’t I like, talk about Fuzzy being a typically bad player earlier? At least I might’ve said somewhere that his scumhunting attempts usually suck. So why is Zionite still calling Fuzzy obvious scum?

Wisdom isn’t tunneling, Rach. Goodness.

Zionite’s still making the same mistake: not taking into account Fuzzy could be a bad player, and instead deflects questions back at Wisdom, accusing him of defending Fuzzy. Not liking this. Zionite’s conclusion against Fuzzy in the same post he votes him is stupid. Incredibly weak case, relying only on the concept of “applying one standard to one player, but a different standard to another.” But the case on Rach is stronger in my eyes, yet why isn’t Zionite’s vote there?

And Fuzzy doesn’t have a case on Zionite either, unless you count the shitty 105 that shows subjectivity. His 108 is actually pretty bad after ISO’ing Fuzzy myself again; Fuzzy is normally a fairly defensive player. So why attack a player on being defensive?

At this point, I feel like there’s most likely a scum in {Zionite, Fuzzy}.

376 and 377 together look pretty bad. If Zionite’s starting to show doubt that Fuzzy’s a bad player, why is his vote still there? And why did he have to remember to put “Or you’re scum” in 377?

Phahaha 380 is exactly what I was thinking.

The rest of it is kinda secondary compared to my impending hammer. I really just read through all of it, and none of it has changed my view on Zionite. His scumhunting hasn’t really convinced me it was worth taking the wagon off of him (Fuzzy case was crap, Rach case was basically Wisdom’s case except he tried to make it look like his own), his backing off of Fuzzy seems convenient since no one was listening to his case, and then Zionite tries to get on Wisdom’s side with the Rach read.

And now I feel comfortable hammering, since Zionite claimed (VT after asking claims were at L-2, wut?) and posted his reads in the event he actually does flip town.

VOTE: Zionite

[]===<(^_^)>===[]

[Does Bo Know]

I don't like DBK's hammer at all.
For one, he didn't let Grimgroove catch up and give his opinion on everything that happened.
Second, it looks like he tried to post reasons and justify the reasons he's hammering, like he felt it was bad doing so.
Third, said reasons look like rehashes of what others have posted.
Finally, saying he thinks there's scum in {Zionite, fuzzy} is likely laying down groundwork to push fuzzy after Zionite. Lining up lynches.

- Taking it for granted that Grimgroove wouldn't convince me away from Zionite.
- Posted reasons for hammering because those were my reasons for hammering.
- it's hard not to mimic others when there have been multiple pages of material commenting on things I was thinking.
- Why did you assume I'm going to target Fuzzy tomorrow if we aren't even sure about Zionite's flip yet?

[Does Bo Know]

Sorry I had to replace out. I skimmed the game though.

I quickhammered on purpose. I wanted to be a suspect, so that I wouldn't be killed N1. If anything, I could claim D2, no harm no foul. (Unless someone counterclaimed watcher, but that's not the best thing to do when it isn't LyLo.)

And yeah, my watch did work N1, but I didn't get results. Not sure why Sword didn't claim, tbh...I guess he was trying to stay incognito for a better claim-point.

Grimgroove played a decent scum game, although he didn't seem to do as much as the other players.

@Jason: Is there even a situation where the watcher shouldn't use his power D1? It gives you the most information, and if you get blocked, you can use it again.

[Does Bo Know]

Oh. Well, I told Jason to revoke my shot in case you didn't want to use it. But again: what would be the point of not watching N1?

[Does Bo Know]

That's actually a brilliant point. Damn.

Oh well, I'll keep that in mind then.

[Does Bo Know]

I guess I skimmed too...skimmily, just remembering that your posts seemed to be longer because you weren't as active as Wisdom.

Yeah...no one's as active as Wisdom.