Open 501: Stacking the Deck of Power (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.05

havingfitz (5) - Syryana, Sakura Hana, Tammy, Does Bo Know, Tierce
Mutleyddmc (2) - Chenoan, dragonfly
Chenoan (1) - Mutleyddmc
Sakura Hana (1) - havingfitz

Not Voting (3) - awestfie, Nachomamma8, Lazurial

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Wednesday, June 12, 2013, at 12:30 AM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2013-06-12 00:30:00).

[Does Bo Know]

So Bert posts a big non-catch-up post, then says there will be more from him in a few hours, then replaces out? that's kind of odd.

I've done it before as both alignments. It's null. Plus he already said two games was too much for him.

[Lazurial]

@DBK: I think Sakura's town over fitz at the moment, but I'm not ready to put him at L-1 just yet.

Off to work. I'll play catch up when I get back and re-read the sakura/fitz debate, maybe put a vote down.

[dragonfly]

The nacho wagon is really random. God I hate RVS so much.

Mutley's accusation makes no sense to me. Like what? I don't even.

UNVOTE

No idea how to actually contribute to this game right now, though, since the questions I would've asked have already been posed. So. Yea.

Tierce, this whole post doesn't sound like fake content?

Besides, he called me boring. Lies and slander, for which the punishment is hanging by the neck until dead.

Well if I ever get bored of the game I will be sure to use your assistance. Don't take it so offensively.

But..

You

boring

lot.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Oh my god.

I hate early wagons. But what even. I don't. What.

VOTE: Mutley

If you are somehow actually town stop being so antagonistic and distracting everyone. This is absurd.

I don't like this.
It looks like Chenoan needed reasoning to join the wagon.

UNVOTE

VOTE: Chenoan

I'm inclined to agree with fitz at the moment as far as mutley's tendency goes. I don't like how Chenoan is justifying his vote as something he doesn't like to do before following through and voting regardless.

I share these sentiments about Chen.

Why aren't you voting Tierce then?

Why did you ask this question?
The answer is fairly obvious if you think about it.

And this is to everyone else as well: Do you believe the speed of a wagon is indicative of the wagonee's (in this case Mutley's) alignment? Do you believe that the speed of the wagon indicates there is scum on it?

Personally I believe the speed of the wagon is null. I've seen scum driven and town driven wagons pop up like this. I'm interested to hear everyone else's thoughts.

In all honesty clueless here, does scum driven mean only one scum on it or more than one?

Lead on, Lazurial!

Does this mean you have a town read on Laz?
Or just a scum read on Chenoan?

Oh no.
Long posts begin now.

That fitz actually asks the questions he does in Post 71 and Post 73 is laughable as fitz is not new and these questions can't possible be considered productive by someone who isn't new.

I actually didn't have a problem with Fitz asking those questions.
Why are so many people thinking those questions were bad?

How am I misrepresenting anything?  You’re misrepresenting me by saying that.  Also…does anyone ever post in mafia against their will?  I.e. stupid accusation you “willfully” made.

The bitterness in Fitz's catch up post is astounding. Why are you acting the way you are?

To answer this, I don't think you correctly understand what Tammy meant when she said you were willfully misrepresenting.
It isn't whether someone is being forced to post.

Oh look at me I'm town, I don't know how many scum there are! Like, is this a serious statement? Even if the setup wasn't in the second post of the game, are you seriously trying to pass off that you thought it possible that there was only one scum in a 12-person game? Micros have two; hell even 5p vengefuls have two.

I think you are misunderstanding something but I will let Fitz answer first.

UNVOTE because clearly I'm not making any headway here. I'll pack the case up and save it for later, if I get more against him.

You ruined my town read on you.

I like the Fitz wagon but I am an entrepreneur. I think his reaction to Tammy and Syr and most recently Bo have been caustic and angry and it doesn't make me think he is town.

VOTE: Chenoan
And I like wagons.

[Tierce]

The nacho wagon is really random. God I hate RVS so much.

Mutley's accusation makes no sense to me. Like what? I don't even.

UNVOTE

No idea how to actually contribute to this game right now, though, since the questions I would've asked have already been posed. So. Yea.

Tierce, this whole post doesn't sound like fake content?

On page 2? No, not at all. I understand feeling lost when someone is acting weirdly and/or people are holding cards to their chest. He reads as someone genuinely confused and makes that admission. I have no issue with newer players doing that.

Besides, he called me boring. Lies and slander, for which the punishment is hanging by the neck until dead.

Well if I ever get bored of the game I will be sure to use your assistance. Don't take it so offensively.

But..

You

boring

lot.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

I was joking on the first bit, and called them boring because all votes were on different people. 1-person wagons at the end of RVS are incredibly dull.

Oh my god.

I hate early wagons. But what even. I don't. What.

VOTE: Mutley

If you are somehow actually town stop being so antagonistic and distracting everyone. This is absurd.

I don't like this.
It looks like Chenoan needed reasoning to join the wagon.

...And what is the problem with that? He's not overexplaining.

UNVOTE

VOTE: Chenoan

I'm inclined to agree with fitz at the moment as far as mutley's tendency goes. I don't like how Chenoan is justifying his vote as something he doesn't like to do before following through and voting regardless.

I share these sentiments about Chen.

So you missed all the section that shows that Chenoan is probably going "ugh, early wagons, but I think he's scum so I'll vote him anyway"?

That fitz actually asks the questions he does in Post 71 and Post 73 is laughable as fitz is not new and these questions can't possible be considered productive by someone who isn't new.

I actually didn't have a problem with Fitz asking those questions.
Why are so many people thinking those questions were bad?

They are not questions that Sakura would have any issue replying honestly depending on her alignment. The questions could be in any other game or in MD or wherever else and you couldn't extract a scum/Townread on Sakura from them. That's why they are not scumhunting questions.

How does that Chenoan vote hold up against Post 127 and Post 128? You went through these posts and did not comment on them.

[awestfie]

Prod dodging, been busy with a lot of things, I'll catch up sometime tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

Tierce, you're probably town and Tammy is probably town because you're not lynching her.
Bert is town too despite being weird as fuck, probably. Add your easy townreads to the list and we'll have a ball around them. If we don't lynch all of the scum/I survive for more than 3 days, you can lynch me and I'll show you my poetry and my short stories and be crazy trolling town.

Vote: Syryana

I'm mostly trolling with this vote but fitz is sort of townish (although I haven't read him yet) so you can die by fire and flames, scumbag.

[dragonfly]

On page 2? No, not at all. I understand feeling lost when someone is acting weirdly and/or people are holding cards to their chest. He reads as someone genuinely confused and makes that admission. I have no issue with newer players doing that.

Maybe I'm reading too far into it.
Just a little note, why do you specify newer players in this post?

I was joking on the first bit, and called them boring because all votes were on different people. 1-person wagons at the end of RVS are incredibly dull.

I was joking too.
I really shouldn't try to be humourous. I'm not naturally funny.

...And what is the problem with that? He's not overexplaining.

I need to word things more appropriately. Forgive me.

I am trying to convey that Chenoan's reasoning for the vote seems tacked on.
It doesn't appear genuine to me. It looks like a justification for an entrance onto the most populous wagon.

So you missed all the section that shows that Chenoan is probably going "ugh, early wagons, but I think he's scum so I'll vote him anyway"?

No, I read those. I was agreeing with Laz. Personally, I think my suspicions are different to Laz's suspicions.
Did you miss the part where Chenoan is apparently "lost" but still has found clarity in specific reads?

One of which is a Muntley scum read?

They are not questions that Sakura would have any issue replying honestly depending on her alignment. The questions could be in any other game or in MD or wherever else and you couldn't extract a scum/Townread on Sakura from them. That's why they are not scumhunting questions.

I don't see the point of this explanation. I figure that is a difference in mentalities.
Not everything in the game has to be about scumhunting. But I will stop here before I give Fitz any further potential outs.

How does that Chenoan vote hold up against Post 127 and Post 128? You went through these posts and did not comment on them.

If by comment you mean the analysis was not immediately after the quote, then I guess.

Within your first reply to me is a "comment" on 127 because I felt that post was a major example of what looked fake about Chenoan.
128 I guess I replied to above.

I consider my reasoning separate from Laz's. No one has yet been able to bring up a plausible reason for why my suspicion is wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

You boring lot.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Not nearly enough rejoicing about being town, and I would love for you to be scum this game.

Other than that tho, doesn't that relieve all pressure off him at this point?

Sakura townie.

Oh my god.

I hate early wagons. But what even. I don't. What.

VOTE: Mutley

If you are somehow actually town stop being so antagonistic and distracting everyone. This is absurd.

You're a little overdramatic.

Worst post of the game thus far. Completely defeats the point of a pressure vote if you call it a pressure vote.

booooooring

But blatantly disassociating yourself with your actions is, I would say.

Scum #2.

dragonfly replaces Bert. Thank you!

I called you town because I like you
I still think you are town, but now I miss you.

Tammy also bores me this game.

[Nachomamma8]

Chenoan, Syryana, and Lazurial. Syryananas, how many powerups did you give your team? Did you go with daytalk and the JOAT so you could take me out of the game and didn't have to go through a bodyguard?

[Lazurial]

Now that I've got some support, even if it's a different logic, and I've had time to look at it, I'll give this one last try.

Vote: Chenoan

Oh my god.

I hate early wagons. But what even. I don't. What.

VOTE: Mutley

If you are somehow actually town stop being so antagonistic and distracting everyone. This is absurd.

My issue isn't that he explained himself. It's not that he looks like a hypocrite. He doesn't, really, because he points out how it's out of the ordinary. My issue is that it doesn't strike me as entirely natural. It seems like something he threw in to make it seem like, if it later turned out lynching Mutley was a mistake, he wasn't to blame. I think that's scummy. Someone town shouldn't have to worry about covering for themselves later as long as they're honest and genuine in their intent. This post goes against that.

Maybe I'm over-reading it. Maybe this is just a bad argument. It's still where I'm reading him.


As far as Havingfitz v Sakura Hana... I'm inclined to side with Hana. She's made arguments that make sense, but fitz keeps asking the same questions. I'm not entirely convinced though, because they way he's writing makes it look to me like he genuinely doesn't see her answers as fitting or complete.

I want to see a bit more activity from awestfie and Chenoan. I'm hoping the pressure we have on him now will get some of that. Nacho's picked back up, so I'm looking forward to see what he has to say. I'm glad to see dragonfly is more active than bert was.

I'm reading town from dragonfly, dbk, mutley, Hana, and Tammy. Syryana's doing a lot to scum hunt. I want to call him town. Tierce is leaning town, but I'm somewhat suspicious of how she's accused me of making an argument I keep saying I'm not so many times. I've got chenoan and fitz leaning scum. I'm waiting for Nacho and awestfie to post a little more.

[Nachomamma8]

As far as Havingfitz v Sakura Hana... I'm inclined to side with Hana. She's made arguments that make sense, but fitz keeps asking the same questions. I'm not entirely convinced though, because they way he's writing makes it look to me like he genuinely doesn't see her answers as fitting or complete.

Why is it one versus the other?

[Lazurial]

...
Aside from that, I’m unsure of what to think when Syryana asks Laz for other suspects, because Laz doesn’t really comment on Sakura vs. Fitz, which is a huge topic so far.
...

It was posed as Hana v Fitz, thus I responded as Hana v Fitz.

[Sakura Hana]

Kinda not liking how you vote Chenoan first, then when you're seen as scum by a couple people you unvote, and when someone agrees with you you vote him again.

[Lazurial]

Continuing from 121:

124: Fitz’s catch-up. Firstly, Glade is probably a trending topic in this game. Secondly, Fitz is really not doing well in defending his logic. His first point to Syryana isn’t good; maybe Sakura didn’t want to vote Nacho because it was already a considerably large wagon, as opposed to earlier, when there wasn’t one. His reasons for 71 and 73 still haven’t shown why they help scumhunting, and don’t add to his case on Sakura.

Basically strawmanning Sakura some more, making her look like her actions are much worse than they actually are, yadda yadda

You can’t tell me L-2 in 35 pages is automatically not null (I’m assuming when you say it can’t be null, that there’s a scum on it). So, here’s the deal: if at some point this game you flip scum, Fitz, I’m gonna look more closely at this L-2 wagon on Mutley for the next scum, and use PoE and associative tells to make this super easy for us. It’ll be grand.

Also, making assumptions that I’m out to get you. My vote was because I wanted to put some more pressure on you to answer to the cases presented, and from there, I would either remove the vote and do something else, or pressure you more with questions. I feel like the reason you think it sounds like I want you lynched, is because you’re trying to paint me as scummy. (And as a bonus, you don’t even directly say I’m scum, so it’s not even that firm of a stance.)

127: Tierce makes the “Fitz assumes scum-fueled wagon” point I made just a few seconds ago, plus says Fitz isn’t doing anything about it. Also, this and 128 both have me convinced that Chenoan’s post about getting on a wagon isn’t scummy.

Some walls that I generally agree with are after that, but it’s too much work to say specifically what I agree with in each part. (In fact, most of the agreements are “They beat me to it.”) Aside from that, I’m unsure of what to think when Syryana asks Laz for other suspects, because Laz doesn’t really comment on Sakura vs. Fitz, which is a huge topic so far.

Aaaand that looks like all I have to say. That catch-up wasn’t too bad.

Alright, cool. I like Fitz as a top candidate for scum. Anyone have any questions, hit me up.

I can't really make a case against the people who are claiming me scum. I'd rather try to hunt scum and hope it clears my name than spend time scrambling to defend myself and risk helping the scum win.

[Nachomamma8]

people who are attacking you could also be scum

[Lazurial]

Sorry about the massive quote there... Must've bumped the queue quote button somewhere along the way.

They could be, and they quite possibly are considering I know myself to be town. Doesn't change the fact I don't think I could lead a wagon against them.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll lead the wagon if you need me to. Just show me the scum.

[Sakura Hana]

Well you had cleared it already for me, you just went back to my "maaaaaaaybe (like 10%) scum" point with your being way too careful with your vote and only wanted to place it on where people are agreeing with you rather than being certain on your scum read and attack that way until you can get a clearer read on them, There hasn't been any chenoan's posts since your unvote that I remember, what made you suddenly change your mind on him again?

[Lazurial]

I've got my leads, and I'm happy with them for now. Mostly waiting for Chenoan to give us more content.

Hana, sorry, misread that statement of yours, so I'll try to give you a better answer now.

I didn't unvote because people were calling me scum. I unvoted because the more I made my case, the more the questions being asked at me stayed the same. It felt like I was making no headway, which led me to become incredibly frustrated. I let my frustration get the best of me, and unvoted him with the intent of placing my vote somewhere useful. I've since calmed down, looked back, made a post with content, and seen someone else who's got an issue with the same post I do. I'm going to try making my case one more time.

If I fail again, I'll move on and probably join another wagon. For the moment though, I'm going to try and be calm and collected while I present my case so as to avoid a repeat of my last effort.

[Chenoan]

I'm bad at being active. Catching up tonightish.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll lead the wagon if you need me to. Just show me the scum.

Laz, who is the scum on your wagon?

[Lazurial]

Currently my wagon consists of you (Nacho), tierce, and I think Hana & dragonfly have me leaning scum too. Ironic as it is, I've got town reads on most all of you. The best I've got is a little bit is suspicion towards Tierce, but I think that's mostly me being defensive over how zealously she pursued me with the wrong question.

[Nachomamma8]

(I'm not on your wagon)

I can't really make a case against the people who are claiming me scum. I'd rather try to hunt scum and hope it clears my name than spend time scrambling to defend myself and risk helping the scum win.

Why did you say this if you thought everyone who was calling you scum was actually town?

[Lazurial]

If I think someone's town, I wouldn't have a case against them, would I? The second part applies regardless, I'd say.