Open 501: Stacking the Deck of Power (Game Over)

[Lazurial]

Vote: Bert

Because of a lack of Ernie in the room. And... Now I'm going to feel very predictable if I vote for you this game, DBK.

[Lazurial]

UNVOTE

VOTE: Chenoan

I'm inclined to agree with fitz at the moment as far as mutley's tendency goes. I don't like how Chenoan is justifying his vote as something he doesn't like to do before following through and voting regardless.

[Lazurial]

@Syryana: I agree with the sporadic and irritating questions. I can't say whether he's town or scum, but I've got a better lead on Chenoan at the moment.

[Lazurial]

Everything, Mutley. You're setting yourself up to be knocked down, which is hardly town. Maybe it's a personal means that works for you, but to the rest of us it looks chaotic and random at best.

[Lazurial]

@Chenoan: My case is that you're being so careful to announce how you hate wagons, before hopping on one.

[Lazurial]

But blatantly disassociating yourself with your actions is, I would say.

[Lazurial]

This early in the game, aren't small details the most important? There hasn't been any time, nor have there been any significant events, for us to find any big details.

[Lazurial]

He made his vote, but before he did, he was very insistent in making sure to say it wasn't his fault if something bad came of it. "I don't like to do this, but I will." That strikes me as an effort to make sure he can't be blamed later. I could be wrong, and I could be over thinking it, but that's my perspective.

[Lazurial]

Lazurial, why are you answering for your scumread?

Personal habit of mine. I answer questions when it seems like the answer is somewhat obvious. I'll admit it's somewhat egotistic and assumptive, but I often can't help myself.

He wasn't doing so.
"Ugh, I hate early wagons, but I think this is scum. I'll vote him, then" doesn't show any kind of dissonance. His feelings about a situation in this game outweigh his general view on things. This isn't scummy; it's not like he's breaking ground on doing something completely and utterly out of character.
Why no comments about anything other than Chenoan and a passing mention of havingfitz?

I wasn't looking at it as the effects now being scummy. I saw it as an effort to cover his tracks before they were made.
I haven't had much to say, really. We've got a few people firing on all cylinders, and I'm still new enough that I'm trying to learn. Chenoan was my first lead. I mentioned fitz because I followed up on something he posted and agreed.

UNVOTE

because clearly I'm not making any headway here. I'll pack the case up and save it for later, if I get more against him.

[Lazurial]

I need to go back and re-read the thread first. I'll try to get back to you in a few hours. Right now I'm trying to brush off the frustration that I can't seem to communicate effectively to anyone here.

[Lazurial]

@DBK: I think Sakura's town over fitz at the moment, but I'm not ready to put him at L-1 just yet.

Off to work. I'll play catch up when I get back and re-read the sakura/fitz debate, maybe put a vote down.

[Lazurial]

Now that I've got some support, even if it's a different logic, and I've had time to look at it, I'll give this one last try.

Vote: Chenoan

Oh my god.

I hate early wagons. But what even. I don't. What.

VOTE: Mutley

If you are somehow actually town stop being so antagonistic and distracting everyone. This is absurd.

My issue isn't that he explained himself. It's not that he looks like a hypocrite. He doesn't, really, because he points out how it's out of the ordinary. My issue is that it doesn't strike me as entirely natural. It seems like something he threw in to make it seem like, if it later turned out lynching Mutley was a mistake, he wasn't to blame. I think that's scummy. Someone town shouldn't have to worry about covering for themselves later as long as they're honest and genuine in their intent. This post goes against that.

Maybe I'm over-reading it. Maybe this is just a bad argument. It's still where I'm reading him.


As far as Havingfitz v Sakura Hana... I'm inclined to side with Hana. She's made arguments that make sense, but fitz keeps asking the same questions. I'm not entirely convinced though, because they way he's writing makes it look to me like he genuinely doesn't see her answers as fitting or complete.

I want to see a bit more activity from awestfie and Chenoan. I'm hoping the pressure we have on him now will get some of that. Nacho's picked back up, so I'm looking forward to see what he has to say. I'm glad to see dragonfly is more active than bert was.

I'm reading town from dragonfly, dbk, mutley, Hana, and Tammy. Syryana's doing a lot to scum hunt. I want to call him town. Tierce is leaning town, but I'm somewhat suspicious of how she's accused me of making an argument I keep saying I'm not so many times. I've got chenoan and fitz leaning scum. I'm waiting for Nacho and awestfie to post a little more.

[Lazurial]

...
Aside from that, I’m unsure of what to think when Syryana asks Laz for other suspects, because Laz doesn’t really comment on Sakura vs. Fitz, which is a huge topic so far.
...

It was posed as Hana v Fitz, thus I responded as Hana v Fitz.

[Lazurial]

Continuing from 121:

124: Fitz’s catch-up. Firstly, Glade is probably a trending topic in this game. Secondly, Fitz is really not doing well in defending his logic. His first point to Syryana isn’t good; maybe Sakura didn’t want to vote Nacho because it was already a considerably large wagon, as opposed to earlier, when there wasn’t one. His reasons for 71 and 73 still haven’t shown why they help scumhunting, and don’t add to his case on Sakura.

Basically strawmanning Sakura some more, making her look like her actions are much worse than they actually are, yadda yadda

You can’t tell me L-2 in 35 pages is automatically not null (I’m assuming when you say it can’t be null, that there’s a scum on it). So, here’s the deal: if at some point this game you flip scum, Fitz, I’m gonna look more closely at this L-2 wagon on Mutley for the next scum, and use PoE and associative tells to make this super easy for us. It’ll be grand.

Also, making assumptions that I’m out to get you. My vote was because I wanted to put some more pressure on you to answer to the cases presented, and from there, I would either remove the vote and do something else, or pressure you more with questions. I feel like the reason you think it sounds like I want you lynched, is because you’re trying to paint me as scummy. (And as a bonus, you don’t even directly say I’m scum, so it’s not even that firm of a stance.)

127: Tierce makes the “Fitz assumes scum-fueled wagon” point I made just a few seconds ago, plus says Fitz isn’t doing anything about it. Also, this and 128 both have me convinced that Chenoan’s post about getting on a wagon isn’t scummy.

Some walls that I generally agree with are after that, but it’s too much work to say specifically what I agree with in each part. (In fact, most of the agreements are “They beat me to it.”) Aside from that, I’m unsure of what to think when Syryana asks Laz for other suspects, because Laz doesn’t really comment on Sakura vs. Fitz, which is a huge topic so far.

Aaaand that looks like all I have to say. That catch-up wasn’t too bad.

Alright, cool. I like Fitz as a top candidate for scum. Anyone have any questions, hit me up.

I can't really make a case against the people who are claiming me scum. I'd rather try to hunt scum and hope it clears my name than spend time scrambling to defend myself and risk helping the scum win.

[Lazurial]

Sorry about the massive quote there... Must've bumped the queue quote button somewhere along the way.

They could be, and they quite possibly are considering I know myself to be town. Doesn't change the fact I don't think I could lead a wagon against them.

[Lazurial]

I've got my leads, and I'm happy with them for now. Mostly waiting for Chenoan to give us more content.

Hana, sorry, misread that statement of yours, so I'll try to give you a better answer now.

I didn't unvote because people were calling me scum. I unvoted because the more I made my case, the more the questions being asked at me stayed the same. It felt like I was making no headway, which led me to become incredibly frustrated. I let my frustration get the best of me, and unvoted him with the intent of placing my vote somewhere useful. I've since calmed down, looked back, made a post with content, and seen someone else who's got an issue with the same post I do. I'm going to try making my case one more time.

If I fail again, I'll move on and probably join another wagon. For the moment though, I'm going to try and be calm and collected while I present my case so as to avoid a repeat of my last effort.

[Lazurial]

Currently my wagon consists of you (Nacho), tierce, and I think Hana & dragonfly have me leaning scum too. Ironic as it is, I've got town reads on most all of you. The best I've got is a little bit is suspicion towards Tierce, but I think that's mostly me being defensive over how zealously she pursued me with the wrong question.

[Lazurial]

If I think someone's town, I wouldn't have a case against them, would I? The second part applies regardless, I'd say.

[Lazurial]

Fair enough. Looking back I didn't handle much of that very well, and probably deserve that vote.

[Lazurial]

Right now the best read I've got is Chenoan, and he won't be posting until later tonight. What's your case on Syrana?

[Lazurial]

I didn't say I had a wagon on me, Nacho did. I've had a few scum reads towards me, but that's about it until now.

I'm just struggling with how aggressive Nacho is. I'm not sure how to say anything more without making myself look guilty, something to work on I guess.

[Lazurial]

Be careful about that. I'd rather not have Nacho missing for seven days after he's already been so absentee.

[Lazurial]

I'll lead the wagon if you need me to. Just show me the scum.

Laz, who is the scum on your wagon?

I was using his term, as it was given to me.

What now? I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. He asked who was on my wagon. I assumed that just meant under the circumstances who all thought I was scum. You and dragonfly were vague about it, so I put 'I think.'

The him leading a wagon, I have no idea. I interpreted it as his own means of scum-hunting.

Did I answer your question?

[Lazurial]

Of course. Let me know if you have any other questions.

[Lazurial]

@Tierce: My bad... I must have gotten lost among a few people there. The question that was repeatedly posed was that I was accusing chenoan of hypocrisy or something of the sort.

In the future, I'll use terms as they were meant, regardless of how they were used towards me, I'm sorry for any confusion it may have caused.

I see the mistake in tipping my hand so early now... I wanted to try and lynch him before he could use that hand, but that poses a lot of risk.

He went on to troll Syryana, I assumed it would be a bit of a scum hunt, and it did to some degree. Syryana's reaction to his trolling was uncharacteristically serious.

[Lazurial]

Prodded, but I still don't have much to say. Not much of my stance has changed since my last post. I'm just slightly more clueless.

[Lazurial]

@Hana: Not really. He's got a pretty solid case. I'm town, but that doesn't mean I haven't made a mistake. Should I sit here and argue that what I did isn't what I did? I don't really see that working, this being a forum and all.

[Lazurial]

@Syryana: His argument is that I've not been sticking hard to my conviction this game. It's entirely true. I've been somewhat flaky on my voting. Namely that I stopped trying to vote him the first time after I got no support. It doesn't necessarily fill out as a full scum read in my mind, but it's not wrong either.

[Lazurial]

@Dragonfly: The fact I was flaky on Chenoan's case earlier, and the time at which my frustration peaked coincided with the point where I was facing scum accusations.

Perhaps some of the inconsistency with my conversation with Nacho.

[Lazurial]

@Hana: I have no idea. I'm trying to be genuine and honest here, but there's absolutely no reason you should believe me. I've played a bad round. Hell, when the game ends I won't be surprised if I was walked through hoops to look like scum by one of the scum. I'm town, but I've done a relatively weak job of looking it. This is my third game of mafia. Ever. I'm still getting the hang of how I play mafia. I don't doubt I'll be an easy lynch kill for the mafia for games to come. All I can really do right now is play as best I can, and watch afterwards to learn what I couldn't while I played.

I played my cards too early and then couldn't explain why I did. I hope I don't hang for it, but I very well may.

TLDR: I've got nothing.

[Lazurial]

How?

Is there really anything I CAN do to prove it? I bet you I'll slip up again and make it worse.

[Lazurial]

Fair enough, I guess.

All the proof I've got is that I've played a horrible scum game. I've slipped up twice, failed to start a decent wagon, gotten a large degree of unnecessary attention, and now have a wagon building on myself. A wagon I'm more or less building myself.

Even if one can only use the QC for scum during a night phase, wouldn't I at least have some semblance of a clue based on some hypothetical night 0 plan I would have set up with my scum buddy?

[Lazurial]

@Tierce: Mind giving me a quick list of behaviors? I'll do what I can to explain my motivation behind each.

UNVOTE

I've lost my scum read on Chenoan as he's put more posts out.

[Lazurial]

@Hana: I'll probably put it on fitz, but I want to answer Tierce's questions first.

[Lazurial]

1. I've not been doing my own scum hunting, but tierce has effectively torn him apart. I agree with her points and think it's a good case.

2.

@Tierce: Mind giving me a quick list of behaviors? I'll do what I can to explain my motivation behind each.

UNVOTE

I've lost my scum read on Chenoan as he's put more posts out.

[Lazurial]

@Hana: Fair enough. Thank you for the benefit of the doubt at the moment.

[Lazurial]

@Tierce: Okay, I'll answer to the offenses I can recall then.

I flaked off my argument with Chenoan at first because I was frustrated. My motivation for my case against him was to scum hunt, but before I could get a good back and forth going my argument hit a wall, and he wasn't around to give me more material.

After Dragonfly voted him, I recollected myself and tried again until Chenoan posted a little more. End result I think he's town now.

My conversation at Nacho is the fact I'm a newb with little experience. I was trying to post and be honest and find friends among the town, as most people seem to do D1. I panicked a bit because it's my first experience under scrutiny (I've died as a NK in both of my newb-queue games and lurked for most of the days I was alive) and minced my words a bit.

Since, I've tried to answer everyone's questions so I can clarify any of my mistakes and explain my motivations.

Was there anything I missed, or any questions anybody else has that they'd like to pose?

Also,

Vote: Havingfitz

Just less than 3 days left. I can't really stall that vote any longer.

[Lazurial]

@Syryana: I wanted to answer to Tierce first, considering her case was the one that lead me to fitz as scum.

@Fitz: I agree with Tierce's case against you thus far.

[Lazurial]

@Fitz: The stubborn tunneling was a lot of it. Seeing more reads from you (And an admission you're being stubborn, though I have little room to talk) makes you seem less scummy in my eyes.

I want to vote Syryana based on trust in Nacho's read of him. Everything he's pointed out is valid, and Nacho would know him better than any of us.

As far as my thoughts go... They're really scattered right now, but I'll do what I can to post them going forward.

[Lazurial]

@Mac: No, I'm not experienced at all. I've played two games and lived a total of three days. I'm 0-2 town, at the moment.

[Lazurial]

Do I request replacement through pm to the gm, or just announce it here?

Mandatory evacuation just hit me for this wildfire, so I won't be able to give the attention to this I should so close to night phase.

I thank you all for an excellent day 1. I've learned lots, and hopefully will be a better player for it.