Game of Thrones

[Wraith]

Book-readers feed on your tears

[bv310]

I feel sorry for people who didn't know this was coming, but it amuses the shit out of me anyhow.

Spoiler: possible future spoilers

Also, any word on whether Joff's death is this season or no?

[Venmar]

Why do I have this feeling that Rickon is going to become this badass knight or warrior while under the Umbers and then be all like " Bitch i'm Rickon Stark".

Where's the Greatjon. Geeze I miss that guy, why did Robb ever replace Greatjon with Bolton as his right hand man?

[Wraith]

I think it was that the actor had other obligations after Season 1 or something. In the books

Both the Greatjon and the Smalljon were at the Red Wedding. Smalljon is killed and the Greatjon despite having consumed enough wine to kill 5 men kicks serious ass until he's subdued. He lives but becomes a prisoner.

[Hiraki]

Spoiler:

Also, any word on whether Joff's death is this season or no?

I posted in the spoiler thread that

GRRM was writing Episode 4x02 for the show, so expect it then.

[ZONEACE]

I feel sorry for people who didn't know this was coming, but it amuses the shit out of me anyhow.

Spoiler: possible future spoilers

Also, any word on whether Joff's death is this season or no?

Considering the season finale is next week I'm guessing not. Would seem like a bit of a throw away to place it right after the Red Wedding

[GoodCopBadCop]

OMFG that was so fucking depressing. Wow!

[Nexus]

Holy shit that was amazing. Even better than I had hoped.

Catelyn's scream of anguish.

It was so brutal. Genuinely shocked at how brutal it was.

I don't even care about the changes - the line towards Robb was a callback to Jaime's line as he left Roose - it was changed then so the continuity is fine. The lack of Jinglebell also makes sense - they'd have to have wasted time making us think that Frey cares about the jester, whereas it is assumed he would care about his wife.

[bv310]

Spoiler:

Also, any word on whether Joff's death is this season or no?

I posted in the spoiler thread that

GRRM was writing Episode 4x02 for the show, so expect it then.

That's actually a little disappointing. Been looking forward to that scene. Now I have to wait until next year's bingewatch to see it.

[ZONEACE]

Really can't understand all the ragequitting. I mean, do you not know what show you're watching?

[Ranmaru]

Really can't understand all the ragequitting. I mean, do you not know what show you're watching?

Now

they do. I will admit that was the farthest I have seen. (Stabbing Robb's wife's stomach... I never remember her name, I just remember that she is a nice pair of tits and firm ass, frey was right) By this point I think people know it's really not about the starks, not even them getting revenge on the lannisters. It's more about the game of thrones. The game of thrones doesn't give a fuck about any house. It only gives a fuck about who is on it's throne. MAYBE. (I say this because I don't think I can really give proof of a WHOLE NOTHER house being fucked by the game, but I just don't see the impossibilty of it... like I go "Wow Jaime is actually becoming a cool character" and then I would NOT be surprised if he got killed somehow... and it's like wtf game of thrones... you GIVE ME his death when I DON'T want it. It obviously doesn't even give a fuck about my feelings.) I think. I wouldn't even rule out some of the lannisters dying cuz like I said, the game of thrones doesn't give a fuck about any house. Sure people may be like "YES this assfuck got killed he deserved it" but it prolly wouldn't even be caused by the house who rightly deserved to fuck them over. Their deaths could have happened through no fault but their own and no one would really feel "YAY" about it because it might not have been carried out how they would wanted it to be in their fantasy islands in their minds.

Also maybe some were really pissed off by Ned Stark dying, and may have been hoping Robb may have gotten the revenge they rightly deserved. This can be one reason they stayed, but fuck. No. The starks were DOUBLE DENIED. GG HOUSE STARK YOU LOST THE GAME. GG. Well, not entirely. Theres the Worg son who I can't even remember his name... lol. Cripples. But if he managed to somehow be king... He'd prolly be doing the same damn thing he did in Winterfell. Wonder when the villagers would stop complaining about dumb shit. But, at this point I don't a whole house being wiped out, as something that would never happen.

...

I also have this weird feeling Arya may grow up to be like Breinne. Dang.

TL;DR

Now they do
Now we really know starks may not even have a chance
People may have stayed because of robb fighting a war, and possibly winning to gain revenge and satisfy ourselves
Game of thrones don't give a fuck about no house. Maybe. People felt that sting. Game of thrones don't give a fuck bout my feelins. THAT JERK
Won't Be surprised if Jaime is killed but will be like WHY GAME WHY NOW WHEN I LIKE HIM AND NOT BEFORE WHEN I HATED HIM FOR PUSHING CRIPPLES BEFORE HE WAS CRIPPLES.
Starks aren't totally wiped out but Cripples would prolly do the same boring thing (as king of thrones etc) as he did in Winterfell, just listen to old geizer's requests and wish they shut the fuck up.

[springlullaby]

Well the book series is called song of Fire and Ice, not Stark vs Lannister.

My overall prediction for the entire cycle is that every major house will get dwindle down to the brink of extinction by the war, then the Icicles men will invade, at which point everyone will be like "oh fuck, we better ceasefire and join force or else everyone dies", cue Dragon Girl reach mainland just in time to melt all that snow and becomes rightful queen to the throne, everyone drink meads, fade screen, a glimpse of a supposedly dead Icicle moving its finger, abrupt black screen with "winter is coming", credits roll.

So yeah it is a matter of not who wins , because as the premises indicate -probably no one, but who get to survive. My prediction is that Littlefinger will do really good for himself amidst chaos becoming a major house. Lannister get wiped out, leaving behind some infant child filled with revenge. Stark remains king in the North under Bran, but only because no one wants to deal with the shitty weather (Sansa becomes a nun, Arya is her asskicking self and set on to become Lara Croft). Tyrell are relatively unscathed and go back within their own territory to be fancy ponces. Baratheon becomes a theocracy under Stanlis, but everyone give them a wide berth because of the obvious crazy. And Greyjoy decide they never want to deal with the continent ever again but becomes filthy rich by inventing sushi.

At this point I don't care anymore that Dragon Girl get the throne, she is still a very 2 dimensional character but you can't argue against someone untainted by the moronic fighting when winter comes.

[Korts]

I think the Starks have pretty much served their narrative purpose at this point--to demonstrate that in a world of political intrigue, rigid morality is impractical, compromise is necessary and trust is foolish. That basically everything we aspire to be is useless when others are willing to be less than perfect and fight dirty. Really, the few remaining Starks out there are only alive this far into the game because of circumstances beyond their control.

Arya is still alive because she's been handed off from one benevolent anti-hero to the other all this time, each of them wiser to the ways of the world than any Stark will ever be, and her naive, stubborn, short-sighted family nature doesn't have much of a chance to manifest itself in their care. Bran and Rickon are too far from any kind of action to be significantly hurt by their simplistic worldview, and Sansa was raised to be a lady--inwardly she's still judging everyone, because judgment is a big part of being a Stark, but she doesn't have the means of acting on her thoughts. And Jon Snow? He's always in between near-death experiences nowadays, and between apparently betraying the Watch and actually betraying Mance Rayder, his gruesome demise is pretty much a given.

So no. I won't mourn for the King in the North.

[Untrod Tripod]

^ these things are somewhat accurate.

The reason why people can't handle the Starks getting dicked over is because those people think there is inherent value to objects, actions, and feelings. I think the ultimate lesson to be gained from the plot insofar as it relates to the Starks is that being a rational person gets random results when dealing with irrational people, no matter how fair and logical one is acting. The mistake I think

a lot

of people are making in their analysis of audience reaction is in thinking that GoT shows that rationality is inherently flawed. This falls into the same trap in that one is assuming that rational behavior can be inherently anything. In other incarnations of this universe, the caprices of the irrational people around them could have led the Starks to stereotypical shiny protagonist heaven on earth. There's no particular reason why things had to happen in this plot other than that they did.

Just IMO.

[Korts]

I dunno that I agree with your argument that all this is essentially random, with no narrative end goal in mind from GRRM. I do think there is a moral of sorts that kind of arises from the fact that realism is taken to the extreme here. And it's this: just because we have been conditioned by popular culture to think that Good Guys are winners doesn't mean that it's necessarily true--Good Guys have self-inflicted disadvantages that put them in an impossible postion when facing Bad Guys of the same level.

I think it's clear that GoT (and SoIaF) tries to explore the lives of fictional characters and the consequences of their actions outside the controlled environment of fiction and narrative causality. The thing is, the fact can't be escaped that it's still fiction, and it would fall apart without narrative structure. And as long as it's an ongoing project, that's not a pressing concern, but it has to end at some point, and when it does, it needs something meaningful to end on. And at that point, the illusion of an uncontrolled environment will shatter--the rises and falls of all the houses will be put in a perspective where random happenstance is no longer an excuse for anything.

[springlullaby]

Hum, I don't believe the overreaching goal of the narrative is to demonstrate what works and what doesn't in political intrigues. The tone is to me more contemplative, and will in the end reflect the futility yet cyclic nature of men's struggles (which is not that novel an idea).

I do think Ned stark was presented as an exceptionally moral figure, but I don't think you can say that he failed, because he never demonstrated the desire to seize the throne for himself and accepted to be Hand only grudgingly. His death resonated as the vespers bells of a relatively stable era, where morality such as his could be upheld. But beside him, the Stark family doesn't share that much morality in common. Robb was pretty much a clueless brat who was arrogant enough to betray his own word, that's not moral. There always was a fatal coquetry to Sansa, which one true ambition was to be wed and become a queen because she is pretty (I tell you, she is going to become a nun).

I vehemently protest that Arya is short-sighted. What should she be "long-sighted" for? She has no pretension to play any game, her motive is rather simple, she is a girl who adored her father, and saw him decapitated and accused of being a traitor, what moves her is simple revenge, by blood. Whether it is moral is arguable. I don't even think she is naive, Sansa is the naive one, believing she'll get her prince time after times because someone told her so. Arya to the contrary, kicks ass, when she get screwed, she knows, and she has demonstrated that she was capable of getting herself out of situations.

[springlullaby]

Huh, of course there is a "rationale" to the story, it is the inner logic of each character within a given environment, which lead them to their fate via their actions. Whether a motive fit one's own view of what is a rational course of action doesn't mean each character isn't following its own inner logic.

[Zachrulez]

So yeah, I was not expecting that. I thought the old man was cool with what happened, and then right at the end... oh, I guess he wasn't cool with that at all.

Wife thought I should be more upset, but I'm just looking forward to see who can deliver the hand of VENGENCE.

[Korts]

Arya is short-sighted because she doesn't factor the motivations of others into her judgment, and so she cannot plan any more than one step ahead of herself. All this time, she has been drifting along on the goodwill of her guides alone. She is naive because she thinks that Good and Bad are distinct and mutually exclusive categories of being, and she doesn't actually kick much ass--every time she has been confronted by a capable adult, she has failed to prove herself worthy of serious consideration. Not that I expect much of her, she is just a kid.

[springlullaby]

She got herself out of Harrenhall, and succeeded in liberating her mates. She escaped from the Brotherhood when she saw that they couldn't be trusted anymore. She didn't back down before the Hound, who could crush her with his pinkie, and actively attempted to rescue herself. All that while being a kid. Contrast to Jaime/Tyrion/Theon, a full fledged knight and men, taken hostage right and left. Ass-kicking is as much in her attitude of not accepting the shitty hand dealt to her than her effective achievement (which are quite ok for her age and ability). She doesn't have no bloody dragons as a deus ex machina plot device at her disposition.

Good and Bad are mutually exclusive by definition, whether to compromise is a matter of moral choice. Naivety would be to believe that the shades of greys don't exist and fail to recognize that men majorly operate within, trying to maintain one's own sense of moral is not it. The only thing naive about her is that she is still surprised when she get screwed over. But she does know when she is getting screwed over and know where to hold the grudge, contrast Sansa led to jump loop after loop without it ever sparking up there.

I don't really know what you are referring to when you say that she doesn't factor the motivation of others into her judgment though.

[Untrod Tripod]

I dunno that I agree with your argument that all this is essentially random, with no narrative end goal in mind from GRRM. I do think there is a moral of sorts that kind of arises from the fact that realism is taken to the extreme here. And it's this: just because we have been conditioned by popular culture to think that Good Guys are winners doesn't mean that it's necessarily true--Good Guys have self-inflicted disadvantages that put them in an impossible postion when facing Bad Guys of the same level.

I think it's clear that GoT (and SoIaF) tries to explore the lives of fictional characters and the consequences of their actions outside the controlled environment of fiction and narrative causality. The thing is, the fact can't be escaped that it's still fiction, and it would fall apart without narrative structure. And as long as it's an ongoing project, that's not a pressing concern, but it has to end at some point, and when it does, it needs something meaningful to end on. And at that point, the illusion of an uncontrolled environment will shatter--the rises and falls of all the houses will be put in a perspective where random happenstance is no longer an excuse for anything.

Good and Bad are entirely meaningless terms, though.

[InflatablePie]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/oh-shi ... ens,32673/

[springlullaby]

Well as far as the reactions to the RW go, it is explained by the fact that two staples of TV narrative get upturned: 1)good guys vs bad guys (with people majorly casting starks and lannister into those roles) 2) protagonists driven narrative (with people asking 'will the Stark get the throne?', instead of 'who will get the throne?').

[tanstalas]

Fun Fact: George R.R. Martin has an artificial lake on his property that is filled entirely with fan tears.

True Story.

[Zachrulez]

I think my wife might have been looking for a reaction from me like one of these ones...