Open 501: Stacking the Deck of Power (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.12

havingfitz (3) - Syryana, Tammy, Tierce
Lazurial (3) - Chenoan, dragonfly, Sakura Hana
Chenoan (2) - Mutleyddmc, Lazurial
Sakura Hana (1) - havingfitz
Syryana (1) - Nachomamma8

Not Voting (2) - The Rufflig, T S O

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Wednesday, June 12, 2013, at 12:30 AM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2013-06-12 00:30:00).

Moderator Comments

Nachomamma8 is V/LA until June 10.

[T S O]

havingfitz I don't mean to be rude but I can guarantee you that the strategy of not posting until heat dies down isn't going to work.

TheRufflig, I'm all ears. Shoot me up. But I have a question for you as well.

You say that you think the scumteam isn't Mutley/fitz/Laz. If so, do you think it's possible that a lynch will occur today which isn't one of them?

[Tierce]

Syryana: because it looks like an actual question in the middle of people questioning Lazurial's behavior. This is an open game and I don't accept this BS and then have it describe as "trolling". Mutley is capable of better than that, and I think he's trying to dumb-tell to keep up a 'trollish' meta that lets him coast.


I hate it when people alter quotes to 'embed' stuff on them. Makes it a pain to follow and refer back to. The quote button is not that difficult to use and much more reader-friendly. Now I have to fix this to appease the CDO in me. ._. /pet peeve

@Tierce...what "faulty logic" of mine was Sakura pointing out to me?  How about Sakura's faulty logic?

...
She was saying that your vote does not help the Town because you're just adding one vote to someone who doesn't have any,

and specifically pointing this out

. Tammy already told you this:

It wasn't about everyone else not joining a pressure wagon, but why did fitz specifically go out of his way to vote someone who hadn't been voted already.  I just can't believe a town!fitz wouldn't recognize that, and his going after Sakura and line of questioning just screams of going after an easy target.  For instance, Post 22 just comes across as willfully misrepresenting the situation to make an action look scummy that wasn't.

It’s not faulty logic to put a vote down in RVS that ISN’T on a wagon.

You're trying to turn this into a semantics discussion. Sakura was saying that your RVS vote was

useless

. It's faulty. It's pointless to want someone to have a vote on RVS just because they don't have a vote; this doesn't further

anything

for Town. "Faulty logic" was probably not the best choice of words, but as I said then, I was running out the door.
 

Sakura wasn't calling you scummy for this, she was pointing out that this is a useless behavior. Town does it all the time. However, you immediately jumped her for hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is not scummy (it's just a sign of lack of self-awareness), and it wasn't even what she was doing. She was pointing out that you went deliberately out of your way to make a useless vote:

[...]

you are the only one who said that wanted to vote someone else on your reasons.

How is pointing this out scummy?

First off….what vote in RVS isn’t useless?  Second…I didn’t say she was calling me scummy for it.  I took issue with the fact she was criticizing me for something that she herself had done.  i.e. Not joined a wagon.  And her subsequent reasoning for NOT joining an existing wagon makes even less sense given that she thought I should have.

First off... look at you making useless (and actually false) remarks. Second: she took issue with you doing it DELIBERATELY. You have an issue with her because you think she was hypocritical? Hypocrisy isn't scummy. I think it's the third time I say so in this game (look at it right in the quote above, and you don't mention this stance as you keep going on that Sakura tirade). "But look, look, she did it too, why aren't you going after her?!"

If in your eyes, what you did isn't scummy, how come Sakura's actions are? Her reasoning makes no sense? How does her reasoning

benefit scum

?
 

She answered your questions where they were relevant. "Why didn't you go after those people [who presented different RVS reasons than I did]" is not relevant.

I took more issue with the fact she was calling me out for not joining a wagon moreso that the fact she didn’t question others who didn’t.  And as I said in an earlier post…I didn’t think her answers were adequate and apparently Sakura agreed.

You're not an idiot. It was obvious sarcasm on #26. And she called you out because you

openly said you decided not to join a wagon

. Let me just tack down a vote on someone without it and we;ll make a nice circle of people with a vote each.
 

And

[Muttleyddmc]

is in the middle of a 5 person speed wagon that I predict has a scum or two on it.
 

[...]

 
And IMO the Mutley vote on

[Sakura Hana]

is much less opportunistic (as you

[Tierce]

accuse him of) then the votes on his wagon.

Why are you sidestepping the Mutley wagon? You're calling the wagon scum-fueled, but not doing anything beyond that.
 
You're asking useless questions, and beyond being useless, they have an antagonistic, chip-on-your-shoulder tone.

What do you mean “sidestepping” the Mutley wagon?  By not supporting it and voicing my opinion that his behavior up to that point was null?  What beyond that do you expect?  And as you apparently have determined Mutley is a town read to you…what would have been my scum-motivation to try and slow down his ~impending lynch?  Early town cred?  No.  I would let him hang.  And my questions may be useless in your opinion but not mine.  Maybe I should just call people boring and mention puppies.  Would that help find scum?  I could giggle too…that seem popular.  Or perhaps reference air fresheners?  All good alternatives to pointing out baseless accusations (i.e. what Sakura was doing).

In case you haven't perchance noticed, the people who are making fluffy remarks are

actually participating in the game

and giving input and providing content. By sidestepping I mean that you have carefully neglected to express an opinion about the

wagon

. There's scum in it! Great! Sakura is obvious scum! ...but which evidence is there of her Mutley vote (or other people's votes) being opportunistic? What 'baseless accusation' is this? The "honesty is scummy" bit? See below.

And IMO the Mutley vote on her is much less opportunistic (as you accuse him of) then the votes on his wagon.

And then nada. You're not sure that there is a second scum on the wagon, but the vote

s are

opportunistic?

WAIT FITZ ARE YOU DOWN WITH LYNCHING SYRNANAS

Idk...possibly. I've been so busy debating my suspicions of Sakura against the people voting me I haven't had a chance to think about others.

It's vague suspicion thrown toward that wagon that you never follow up on, and then you haven't even had an opportunity to consider the wagon you called scum-fueled? It's as good a place as any other for you to start, but you completely dropped that line.
 

Post 68 and Post 71 and Post 73--what was the goal here? To get Sakura Hana to admit that she would lie as scum?

Yay!

Where is the follow-up? You move on to Does Bo Know on the next posts and Post 124 doesn't show how these questions were useful to you on scumhunting Sakura:

As for my questions that you quote from Post 71 and Post 73...they were asked to Sakura to prove a point on how absurd her "So speaking honestly is scummy" comment was.  Which I infer earlier in Post 71.  An admission that she would not confess to speaking dishonestly as scum (which she did not admit to) would show her baseless comment's uselessness.  I.e. everyone should be assumed to be speaking honestly unless they are scum who aren’t going to admit to speaking dishonestly.

How does this help you read Sakura's alignment in

this

game? Her comment was 'absurd', and so what? Why wouldn't she make such a comment as Town? How does "proving a point" mean

anything

regarding her alignment that she would answer differently if she were Town or scum?

I viewed Sakura’s honestly comments as her trying to implicate anyone she could for any reason she could…as shown by her throwing out a baseless accusation towards Mutley (though I did not know who she was referring to when I first questioned her on it).

...what. She was being sarcastic. Again. She was saying that "yeah, admitting my mistake on the count to lynch is totally scummy ". Did you even

read

that sequence of posts (starting in Post 65)? You're just trying to throw mud on her actions; she wasn't calling Mutley scummy for THAT; the most she did was implicitly roll her eyes at his reasoning. You're not stupid, you're a native English speaker, and you're a good Town player. How come you're having so much trouble deciphering these things? You want that Sakura Hana lynch so bad and have no chance to look at the other candidates. Poor you. And no, I still don't think those questions were in any way useful for you to read Sakura Hana.
 

and his going after Sakura and line of questioning just screams of going after an easy target.  For instance, Post 22 just comes across as

willfully misrepresenting

the situation to make an action look scummy that wasn't.

[...]

  Also…does anyone ever post in mafia against their will?  I.e. stupid accusation you “willfully” made.

See above in the antagonistic behavior bit. You're a reasonable, collected player as Town. What's with the prickliness?

Are you providing a meta assessment of me?  You obviously don’t know me well because I can frequently get “prickly”…especially when town defending myself from stupid attacks.  The fact you are not aware of this shows you have no idea to what you refer.
 
Can you provide a few one liners on why you are voting me?

I have actually played with you before a few times, both as Town and as scum. You get far more dodgy and defensive and

oh god get it off

as scum, in my experience.

And no, I'm not going to make a bullet point case for your convenience. I've already outlined what I think makes you scum and I'm not going to make a pretty case for you to tear apart. That is, if you don't just try to lurk out the Day and then say your hand was "forced" as you hammer your counterwagon~


In other news, tonight I finished a knitted bonnet with braids and a pom-pom. All mine, Tammy~


I think there's probably more that I need to address (namely reading fitz's other posts), but just fixing the formatting in this post took all of my mafia patience quota for tonight.

[Tierce]

Oh right, there's Nacho's Syryana case. Tomorrow.

The town has been too focused on the newer and weaker players. I do not believe that the scum team consists entirely of Mutleyddmc, Lazurial and havingfitz. However, it seems as if both alignments are going after these same players. The more experienced players should know better, but their lists are nearly identical to the newer players. In the midst of all this, the scum players just blend right in. BTW, I tend to give the newer players a bit more slack (mostly because their behavior tends to trip me up).

havingfitz is far from a weak player as Town. And this is a fallacy I've fallen victim to all too often; being newer/weaker doesn't mean they have a reduced chance of drawing scum. (I was scum in Fluffydash's first MLP, Prosecutor Godot was scum in the second MLP, FourTrouble was scum in Zachyard...) I love newbTown tells (and have been fooled by scum making them >.>), but there is nothing wrong with going after the easier pickings right now. I won't be able to figure Nacho out on D1, I think Tammy is fairly Town (keep her posting, she likes to lurk as scum), and Syryana is up for debatomorrow.


Lazurial: if you don't start showing how your motivation for your behaviors (regardless of how scummy/Town said behaviors look) is Town, I'm going to lynch you so hard you won't know what happened. And then havingfitz gets to hammer you a day before deadline and say his hand was "forced" because you were his counterwagon.

[Sakura Hana]

I find it funny how fitz keeps attacking me despite the fact that i'm not attacking him anymore, because at this point, i think Laz has a higher chance of flipping scum, i had my doubts so i decided to keep questioning his actions, and yeah i pretty much wanted him to prove it by his actions, i thought that'd be obvious for town aligned players, instead he threw AtE.

[havingfitz]

havingfitz I don't mean to be rude but I can guarantee you that the strategy of not posting until heat dies down isn't going to work.

Being wrong isn't rude. My lack of presence atm isn't "strategy"...it's lack of time based. Should be able to catch up in here tonight.

[Lazurial]

@Tierce: Mind giving me a quick list of behaviors? I'll do what I can to explain my motivation behind each.

UNVOTE

I've lost my scum read on Chenoan as he's put more posts out.

[Sakura Hana]

And what do you plan on doing with your vote now?

[Lazurial]

@Hana: I'll probably put it on fitz, but I want to answer Tierce's questions first.

[Sakura Hana]

@Hana: I'll probably put it on fitz, but I want to answer Tierce's questions first.

1. So you're gonna jump on another wagon? Any reason for fitz to be scum, I know that i think he's scum too but you've done close to nothing in terms of scumhunting so i was wondering how the heck you got that idea.

2. Why aren't you answering her questions already then?

[Lazurial]

1. I've not been doing my own scum hunting, but tierce has effectively torn him apart. I agree with her points and think it's a good case.

2.

@Tierce: Mind giving me a quick list of behaviors? I'll do what I can to explain my motivation behind each.

UNVOTE

I've lost my scum read on Chenoan as he's put more posts out.

[Sakura Hana]

Sounds good to me.
VOTE: havingfitz
Say all you want about being busy i've seen you have been busy replying to other games instead of here, so might as well increase the pressure on you here so you are more active then.

[Sakura Hana]

btw Laz, im still not sold on your statements, but i will wait before i see something more town from you before i change my mind about you.

[Lazurial]

@Hana: Fair enough. Thank you for the benefit of the doubt at the moment.

[Sakura Hana]

Only thing giving me doubts about you is that i saw you acting the same way in a game you were town.

[The Rufflig]

havingfitz is far from a weak player as Town. And this is a fallacy I've fallen victim to all too often; being newer/weaker doesn't mean they have a reduced chance of drawing scum. (I was scum in Fluffydash's first MLP, Prosecutor Godot was scum in the second MLP, FourTrouble was scum in Zachyard...) I love newbTown tells (and have been fooled by scum making them >.>), but there is nothing wrong with going after the easier pickings right now.

My experience with havingfitz has been different than yours apparently. Remind me to tell you how the Tenements ended sometime. Ah, no. This was not a fallacy. What I said was that I would not believe that all of the newer and weaker players were scum. I was/am upset that there has been very little consideration of anyone else. There is a good chance that we will end up lynching one of those three, but I'd rather not do it without looking at other players as well.

My first game outside the newbie sandbox I drew a serial killer role. In spite of being a newer player, I'd managed to gain some town credit and avoid suspicion until MYLO. I ended up winning the game. That same game also taught me a healthy respect for what Nachomamma8 can pull off as scum.

[Tammy]

Oh yeah rufflig before I forget. Did you read Tierce correctly in Kahn's game?

[Tammy]

In other news, tonight I finished a knitted bonnet with braids and a pom-pom. All mine, Tammy~

Want. Is it pink? Is it as cute as the avatar bonnet?

[Tammy]

No idea how to actually contribute to this game right now, though, since the questions I would've asked have already been posed. So. Yea.

Yeah, for some reason I'm feeling incredibly curious tonight, so I'm asking like every question possible.

You should vote Mutley with me though, since you have the same questions and I'm sure you want to help pressure Mutley into answering them.

PEdit: The interaction with Fitz? Which part?

Okay Fitz here. How was it not obvious to you that Mutley was a pressure wagon?

[Tammy]

havingfitz is far from a weak player as Town. And this is a fallacy I've fallen victim to all too often; being newer/weaker doesn't mean they have a reduced chance of drawing scum. (I was scum in Fluffydash's first MLP, Prosecutor Godot was scum in the second MLP, FourTrouble was scum in Zachyard...) I love newbTown tells (and have been fooled by scum making them >.>), but there is nothing wrong with going after the easier pickings right now.

My experience with havingfitz has been different than yours apparently. Remind me to tell you how the Tenements ended sometime. Ah, no. This was not a fallacy. What I said was that I would not believe that all of the newer and weaker players were scum. I was/am upset that there has been very little consideration of anyone else. There is a good chance that we will end up lynching one of those three, but I'd rather not do it without looking at other players as well.

My first game outside the newbie sandbox I drew a serial killer role. In spite of being a newer player, I'd managed to gain some town credit and avoid suspicion until MYLO. I ended up winning the game. That same game also taught me a healthy respect for what Nachomamma8 can pull off as scum.

My experience with fitz has been to be strong town also. In experimental he was a driving force in why town ended up winning that game. One because of his creative embellishment of his claim and because of how thorough he was in his reads. (The thoroughness in reads is going on memory and may not be totally accurate. I remember that he was arguing at the end for why I was more likely town when people were trying to push me as scum anyway, and I'm kind of self-absorbed so that's the part I remember.) Anyway I've seen him as scum a couple times, and his push on sakura is what is mostly bothering me. In NY146 he tunneled on a newer player that was an easy target for pretty much the entire game. And in that game he protected his partners, which is why his metaing mutley, but not his scum read has got me wondering about him even more.

----------------

Still reading Sakura as town along with Does Bo Know who I guess is TSO now.

Sorry for the spamming that may occur as I'm making my way through the thread.

[Tammy]

Oh that Rufflig question goes for Syryana too - Did you read Tierce correctly in Kahn's game?

[Tammy]

Chenoan, Syryana, and Lazurial. Syryananas, how many powerups did you give your team? Did you go with daytalk and the JOAT so you could take me out of the game and didn't have to go through a bodyguard?

I didn't stop there; I took every single one of those powers just so I could terminate you with extreme prejudice.

Nacho - Isn't part of your reasoning for scum reading Syryana that he wasn't joking with you? What do you make of this?

[Tammy]

@Tierce: My bad... I must have gotten lost among a few people there. The question that was repeatedly posed was that I was accusing chenoan of hypocrisy or something of the sort.

In the future, I'll use terms as they were meant, regardless of how they were used towards me, I'm sorry for any confusion it may have caused.

I see the mistake in tipping my hand so early now... I wanted to try and lynch him before he could use that hand, but that poses a lot of risk.

He went on to troll Syryana, I assumed it would be a bit of a scum hunt, and it did to some degree. Syryana's reaction to his trolling was uncharacteristically serious.

Have you played with syryana before?

[Tammy]

tammy i was planning on only trolling tierce but I can also troll you if you'd like
i know i deserve it for nightless, but

You do deserve it for nightless. And I suppose you could troll me, but then you run the risk of me taking it seriously and provoking me into an emotional meltdown. So you know, that's your choice, but I think games are always much more pleasant for everyone when I'm not acting like a lunatic

except for faraday who just thinks its funny

[Tammy]

What would be a legitimate reason to read you as scum, Laz?

Tammy et al, is it okay if I stop reading your bickering? It is proving too much to read in one sitting and I only have limited time each day.
I think you guys are getting too involved with each other. Take a break for a couple of days and then come back.

Why are you asking if it's okay? I'm interacting with fitz to get a better read on him, and though I think it's become unproductive at this point, any reading of our interaction should help you with your read on us.

I'd feel a lot better if you just said, "you guys are annoying, and I'm not reading this crap any longer" than ask if it's okay.