Open 501: Stacking the Deck of Power (Game Over)


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Post Post #375 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:04 pm

Post by Equinox »

Vote Count 1.13havingfitz (4) - Syryana, Tammy, Tierce, Sakura Hana
Lazurial (2) - Chenoan, dragonfly
Chenoan (1) - Mutleyddmc
Sakura Hana (1) - havingfitz
Syryana (1) - Nachomamma8

Not Voting (3) - The Rufflig, T S O, Lazurial


With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Wednesday, June 12, 2013, at 12:30 AM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2013-06-12 00:30:00).

Moderator CommentsNachomamma8 is V/LA until June 10.

dragonfly and Nachomamma8 have been prodded.
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Post Post #376 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:11 pm

Post by Tammy »

In post 341, The Rufflig wrote: I don't really have a question for Sakura Hana. My biggest concern with her play isn't with her scum hunting per se, but the fact that she has been on all the major wagons thus far. Last on the Nachomamma8 wagon and last one on the Mutleyddmc wagon. She did make it to second place on the havingfitz wagon, but I'm still a bit concerned that her scum hunting is following public sentiment.
Why is her jumping around on the wagons a concern?
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Post Post #377 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:52 pm

Post by Tammy »

Boh. Okay you know what part of my problem with this game is not just the quote strippers but it's the amount of newbies as well. (no I'm not saying you don't belong). The problem is that newbies generally do things that seem scummy but aren't, and so sometimes it's difficult to ferret out what are just general newb tells and what is scummy. In this I sympathisize with rufflig and the giving new players more slack, in fact I tend to feel like I'm kicking puppies when dealing with new players sometimes, and I have never played in the newbie queue so I feel kinda lost, especially when half of our players are newer.

But I guess it also feels weird that my two strongest town reads are newer. Sakura Hana and tso (who still looks town but is town by virtue of Bo...but also still like some of his posts.)

I really don't know what to make of the nacho/syryana position. Part of me wants to trust nacho on is read solely because when I tell people my reads on people I can read well, like empire and regfan...and tierce sometimes, i expect them to listen to me. And from the way that nachos playing to he expected a kind of mattp/kkb showdown. But I've seen them hydra as scum and town, I've seen them do their trolling game, so I know what to look for. But i dont with nacho/syry. I did just look back to the nightless game in which I totally remembered it wrong thinking that he didn't catch scum syryana but he did I guess. He just never really gave any reasons. My problem is that I totally read syryana as town in that game, so I'm not really sure how to read him, especially day one. But what is a bonus for syryana is that he voiced what I was thinking before I got a chance to say it, and that kind of thing makes me think town, simply because I think it's more difficult for scum to make the same observations as town. And I don't know really ow to read nacho. I do think he seems fairly townish, and is pushing a case similar to how I've seen him push a case before as town, but he did just finish a game with me and tierce in which he was scum, so I could imagine him playing somewhat differently. What it boils down to is that I didn't know how to read him either day one., and I think both of them are better read in the context of a flip especially with the way their reads are going.

But I do somewhat agree with chenoan? That if there is scum in syryana/nacho there's only one. I remember ces saying that nacho was a superbusser in yolo but I don't know how true that was since they were partners (though that's an easy enough thing to check), but I just don't see any need for it. I also agree that if fitz is scum then syryana is pretty much definitely town, and nacho *might* be scum in that instance. However, I did just see nacho as scum who didn't do this dance concerning his partner and actually attempted to draw this connection with town, so I don't necessarily buy this connection.

Rufflig - why was it syryana that you wanted to question first surprisingly?

I keep forgetting that mutely is in the game until I see a post from him. I get trolling. I get finding day one tedious and difficult. But I don't get mutely or what he's doing at all. I've seen him posting around site and not posting here and if he's capable of scumhunting and thought I don't know why he's not doing it here. and I'm sorry but I've been in/read enough games where the vi's and trolls don't do anything and use this to hide behind. Also if fitz flips scum then his metaing mutely but not his supposed scum read Sakura could be a thing as he could have been protecting his partner.

Okay it's late and I need sleep. I want to do a few Isos and there are a few things I need to mull over, which I'll do tomorrow morning while doing laps, which makes me think better anyway.
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Post Post #378 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:23 pm

Post by The Rufflig »

In post 366, Tammy wrote:Oh yeah rufflig before I forget. Did you read Tierce correctly in Kahn's game?
I would have to give you a qualified yes.

Tierce replaced in on Day 2. The game had become fairly stagnant and there were no deadlines. She started out strong by claiming a strong scum read on another player based on meta - she got her lynch fairly easily. At the beginning of day 3 (which nearly didn't occur -- the mafia night killed the mafia-ally allowing there to be a day 3), Tierce's awesomeness had dried up completely. She had stopped finding people suspicious and probing other players. Granted she still made comments on what she thought, but it wasn't active scum hunting anymore. I couldn't make a case on that alone. However, I had read one of her scum partners correctly. If I had managed to get him lynched, I thought I might be able to make a case based on her change in scum hunting and some past interaction with her scum partner. It didn't happen. We had a chance with Tierce bussing her scum buddy, but that chance quickly disappeared (5 votes needed to lynch - town only had 4 votes available). So, yes, I was able to read Tierce correctly (on day 3), but it was too late. The scum hunting that Tierce had been doing in this game is much more active than in Khan's game. I am convinced that Tierce is town. If that scum hunting dries up, then we'll talk about Tierce being scum.

---

In Tenements, there was a different voting problem. There were 5 players alive (out of 13). There had only been 1 mafia flip - no sk present. havingfitz had gained an extra vote so it took 4 votes to lynch. Assuming that there were 2 scum left then it was impossible for havingfitz to be scum. The town would have had only 3 votes of the needed 4 votes to lynch. Guess who got mislynched? That's right, the two other townies and both scum ended up lynching havingfitz. Granted that is a bit of a simplification, but the town should never have settled for his lynch -- even as a gambit.
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Post Post #379 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:36 pm

Post by Tammy »

In post 378, The Rufflig wrote:If that scum hunting dries up, then we'll talk about Tierce being scum.
That wasn't my implication. It's my experience that when people are fooled by someone once, they are a little more tentative about reading someone as town in the next game. You didn't seem very cautious of tierce, so I wondered.
rufflig wrote: In Tenements, there was a different voting problem. There were 5 players alive (out of 13). There had only been 1 mafia flip - no sk present. havingfitz had gained an extra vote so it took 4 votes to lynch. Assuming that there were 2 scum left then it was impossible for havingfitz to be scum. The town would have had only 3 votes of the needed 4 votes to lynch. Guess who got mislynched? That's right, the two other townies and both scum ended up lynching havingfitz. Granted that is a bit of a simplification, but the town should never have settled for his lynch -- even as a gambit.
I'll look at this game tomorrow to see what you're talking About. *sleep* now.
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Post Post #380 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:29 pm

Post by Syryana »

In post 370, Tammy wrote:Oh that Rufflig question goes for Syryana too - Did you read Tierce correctly in Khan's game?
I did, for all the good it did. Rufflig more or less covered it. Once she came back from V/LA and didn't jump all over serra, I knew she was scum. I'd suspected it before then, but it wasn't certain until then.
In post 378, The Rufflig wrote:In Tenements, there was a different voting problem. There were 5 players alive (out of 13). There had only been 1 mafia flip - no sk present. havingfitz had gained an extra vote so it took 4 votes to lynch. Assuming that there were 2 scum left then it was impossible for havingfitz to be scum. The town would have had only 3 votes of the needed 4 votes to lynch. Guess who got mislynched? That's right, the two other townies and both scum ended up lynching havingfitz. Granted that is a bit of a simplification, but the town should never have settled for his lynch -- even as a gambit.
That's a pretty gross oversimplification. Fitz didn't get lynched because he was scummy (AA9 scumread doesn't count); he got lynched because WT was gambling on his fireball working and the town didn't know for sure how many scum were left (also WT thought fitz was slightly less townie than Slandaar for some reason, still no idea how that worked).

I don't understand how that game ending applies to what's happening now. Can you explain to me how what happened in that game applies to you reading fitz in this one?
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Post Post #381 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:44 am

Post by havingfitz »

In post 361, Sakura Hana wrote:i've seen you have been busy replying to other games instead of here, so might as well increase the pressure
This is not true. I have been underposting in all my games the last few days. And just because I get a chance to make a comment in one game doesn't mean another game will get the same.

Should have time for in here tonight.
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Post Post #382 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:59 am

Post by Equinox »

Chenoan and Mutleyddmc have been prodded.
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Post Post #383 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:07 am

Post by The Rufflig »

In post 380, Syryana wrote:That's a pretty gross oversimplification. Fitz didn't get lynched because he was scummy (AA9 scumread doesn't count); he got lynched because WT was gambling on his fireball working and the town didn't know for sure how many scum were left (also WT thought fitz was slightly less townie than Slandaar for some reason, still no idea how that worked).

I don't understand how that game ending applies to what's happening now. Can you explain to me how what happened in that game applies to you reading fitz in this one?
Meh, I don't think it was a gross oversimplification. However, I was stating why I thought havingfitz was one of the weaker players. ATM, the only thing from that game that I see pertinent here is his attitude. He came off fairly prickly to me in that game. So the mentions of his attitude coming off as not town here are falling on my deaf ears. I don't know if he comes off prickly as scum or not.
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Post Post #384 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:43 am

Post by The Rufflig »

In post 351, T S O wrote:TheRufflig, I'm all ears. Shoot me up. But I have a question for you as well.

You say that you think the scumteam isn't Mutley/fitz/Laz. If so, do you think it's possible that a lynch will occur today which isn't one of them?
Yes. I've been in deadline crunch lynches before where the person who got lynched was not one of the wagons throughout the day. It is possible; just not likely.

I believe your statement means that you are all caught up. Cool. So, please join the discussion. I tend to think more highly of players who volunteer information rather than making me ask for it all the time. In that respect, Lazurial ranks slightly higher than you as he has mentioned some people that he did not find scummy. Also, while I didn't like his scum read on Chenoan, at least he put it out there - which puts him one up on me. Who are you interested in or find scummy?
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Post Post #385 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:35 am

Post by dragonfly »

Ruffig's posts so far make me feel fairly confident that he is town.
Tammy too.

I can't describe the misgivings I have with Laz. I feel that his honesty and play is almost too open. It's open that it doesn't have any rigidity, making his actions easy to write off.
I need to think about my read on him. I should probably read about Fitz too but that one is very boring. Too many posts about it and his interaction with Sakura. The only thing I remember is not liking his tone to the people attacking him.
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Post Post #386 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:47 am

Post by T S O »

Honestly? I think scum is definitely within {fitz, Chen, Syr} as of now. Fitz looks the worst to me atm.
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Post Post #387 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:32 am

Post by Mutleyddmc »

Prodded‼ I have been reading. I just dont really have much to say. Would be happy with a fitz, chen or laz lynch
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Post Post #388 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:35 am

Post by Sakura Hana »

In post 386, T S O wrote:Honestly? I think scum is definitely within {fitz, Chen, Syr} as of now. Fitz looks the worst to me atm.
Yet you aren't voting anyone.
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Post Post #389 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:38 am

Post by The Rufflig »

In post 341, The Rufflig wrote:
@dragonfly:
What did you think of Syryana's responses to me?
@dragonfly:
Or Nachomamma8's case on Syryana?
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Post Post #390 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:00 pm

Post by The Rufflig »

In post 376, Tammy wrote:Why is her jumping around on the wagons a concern?
Bear with me a moment. Currently, I don't think Sakura Hana is scum. I am not concerned by her vote moving around. I am somewhat concerned that her vote seems to be following public sentiment of who is scummy. Following the crowd is not an uncommon trait among scum. It helps them blend in and keep from being noticed -- not all scum engage in this behavior. Some players do it more than others. Keeping up a stream of scum hunting and reasons to follow the crowd is difficult for some players. If you want to see a classic example of a scum following the crowd check out Serra Paladin in Xylbot II. You can also check out Tierce running out of steam in her scum hunting after a single day's play in the same game.

So far, Sakura Hana's reasons for voting these people read fairly genuine. She is also poking around asking questions. As long as this keeps up, then her votes following public sentiment aren't a problem. To me, following the crowd is an indicator to keep an eye on a player.

---
In post 377, Tammy wrote: Rufflig - why was it syryana that you wanted to question first surprisingly?
I believe that I can read Syryana fairly well since I've seen him as both town and scum. I thought that Syryana looked town in my initial read through. So, I wasn't looking at him that hard when I started digging into the game. Therefore, I was surprised to find something that I found questionable in his play. His encouragment of Chenoan's wagon without contributing to it struck me as being a little off.
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Post Post #391 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:12 pm

Post by Tammy »

In post 383, The Rufflig wrote:
In post 380, Syryana wrote:That's a pretty gross oversimplification. Fitz didn't get lynched because he was scummy (AA9 scumread doesn't count); he got lynched because WT was gambling on his fireball working and the town didn't know for sure how many scum were left (also WT thought fitz was slightly less townie than Slandaar for some reason, still no idea how that worked).

I don't understand how that game ending applies to what's happening now. Can you explain to me how what happened in that game applies to you reading fitz in this one?
Meh, I don't think it was a gross oversimplification. However, I was stating why I thought havingfitz was one of the weaker players. ATM, the only thing from that game that I see pertinent here is his attitude. He came off fairly prickly to me in that game. So the mentions of his attitude coming off as not town here are falling on my deaf ears. I don't know if he comes off prickly as scum or not.
Oh okay this makes more sense. I was trying to figure out what the endgame of that game had to do with this game. I did look at his play in that game. I'm not really good at following along in games I don't play in as I glaze over, but I see the prickliness. I looked back at experimental, which we were both town in, and he was prickly there too. But he was a bit more thoughtful in the way that he went about his reads. (Although he wasn't suspected in such a high degree, so it might not be the most accurate of comparisons, but he did change his reads and move around some.) I also did go back to NY146 where we played together and I was town and he was scum. Unfortunately the first 4? days was eaten by tigers, so I can't look back to his start in that game and I was a late game replacement. Anyway, he was prickly there too. Prickly isn't why I'm bothered by him though. I'm bothered by the way he's reading Sakura because it looks like he's going after an easy target and not actually trying to read her. He did this in NY146 where he went after a newer player and tunneled pretty much the entire game. His tunneling was actually why I thought he was town when I replaced in, because even though a good majority of the game was telling him that his target was town, he kept pushing on. I'm seeing a similar attitude here.
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Post Post #392 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:25 pm

Post by havingfitz »

In post 387, Mutleyddmc wrote:Would be happy with a fitz,
chen or laz
lynch
You're welcome :roll:

Seriously....wtf?



I seriously don't even know what to say at the moment. I feel a few days out of sync because of RL and I'm not even sure what the case on me is other than people don't think my suspicions of Sakura were warranted.

Does anyone thinking of voting me have any questions for me?

Would anyone voting me care to explain why? I know I asked a few people already but I'm not sure if anyone answered. I'll look after this post.
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Post Post #393 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:26 pm

Post by havingfitz »

In post 383, The Rufflig wrote:I was stating why I thought havingfitz was one of the weaker players
WTF?
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Post Post #394 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:02 pm

Post by havingfitz »

In post 391, Tammy wrote:I also did go back to NY146 where we played together and I was town and he was scum. Unfortunately the first 4? days was eaten by tigers, so I can't look back to his start in that game and I was a late game replacement.
So if the first 4 days were eaten by tigers how do you
know this
:
In post 369, Tammy wrote:I
n NY146 he tunneled on a newer player that was an easy target for pretty much the entire game.
And in that game he protected his partners, which is why his metaing mutley, but not his scum read has got me wondering about him even more.
And to whom do you refer? Deasvail or Palisades? Because I was on Palisades for most of D1 and 2 (when he got lynched). And I stayed on him because I had support. He got to L-2 on D1 before a modkill on another player allowed him to make it to D2 where he was lynched. So not the same thing here. And if you are referring to Deasvail you're just wrong. Especially "for pretty much the entire game."
In post 391, Tammy wrote:I'm bothered by the way he's reading Sakura because it looks like he's going after an easy target
If Sakura is such an easy target where are my scumbuddies? If I was scum...do you (or anyone) really think I would go down with the ship on a player everyone else seems to be giving a pass on. BTW...a quick look at my last several scum games shows me that I do not tunnel town on D1....I mix it up. The closest I came to not mixing it up was in the gmae you mention above....where most everyone agreed with me.
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Post Post #395 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:15 pm

Post by havingfitz »

In post 263, Syryana wrote:You say Hana-san is scummy because she doesn't want to put a second vote on Nacho when she thinks it's a micro but when she finds out it isn't a micro she doesn't mind putting a 4th vote on him (L-3 in both cases). You're misrepping the fuck out of her (she didn't put vote #2 on Nacho because she was voting you).
This is a lie. You are making this up. Try reading slower. The Glade plug-in is stuck in one of your orifices I think.
In post 263, Syryana wrote:"I don't typically use meta to find scum" followed by "I used meta to evaluate Mutley because he seemed on the verge of a lynch" is a crock of shit.
It's not a crock of shit...it's what I did.
In post 263, Syryana wrote:You're scum
You're not scumhunting
No.
Sakura is scum.
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Post Post #396 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:10 pm

Post by Sakura Hana »

In post 395, havingfitz wrote:No.
Sakura is scum.
I still wonder what makes you think this? I mean seriously, I don't even know what to say to you anymore, since you disregard everything i tell you and make it a reason for you to think i'm scum, yet who's the one doing scumhunting here?
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Post Post #397 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:28 pm

Post by Syryana »

In post 383, The Rufflig wrote:ATM, the only thing from that game that I see pertinent here is his attitude. He came off fairly prickly to me in that game. So the mentions of his attitude coming off as not town here are falling on my deaf ears. I don't know if he comes off prickly as scum or not.
I'm not voting him cause he's prickly. I'm voting him because he's doing his damnedest to paint Hana-san scummy (even with mountains of evidence she isn't), he's refusing to do any scumhunting or even consider other targets, his original "questions" on Hana-san had nothing to do with actually finding her alignment. The fitz I remember from Tenements at least gave thought to other possibilities, but this fitz here apparently doesn't give a damn.
The Rufflig wrote:I believe that I can read Syryana fairly well since I've seen him as both town and scum. I thought that Syryana looked town in my initial read through. So, I wasn't looking at him that hard when I started digging into the game. Therefore, I was surprised to find something that I found questionable in his play. His encouragment of Chenoan's wagon without contributing to it struck me as being a little off.
I liked Chenoan for scum at first cause I didn't like how he was blatantly stating he had no clue yet he was still voting and having reads. I asked him some things about it (don't remember if I got replies or not, must go see), but Laz seemed to be onto him too so I let him pursue it and concentrated on fitz. Then I got completely distracted by fitz/Nacho and missed Chenoan's responses. When you brought it up and I went back and checked, Chen's responses pretty much dissolved the scumread I had on him.
In the timeless words of a great and revered man: "Blow it out your ass."
A hydra of Rift Adrift, Oil Tycoons and Trust Fund. "In the Oil Rift we Trust."
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Post Post #398 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:00 pm

Post by Tierce »

In post 397, Syryana wrote:I'm not voting him cause he's prickly. I'm voting him because he's doing his damnedest to paint Hana-san scummy (even with mountains of evidence she isn't), he's refusing to do any scumhunting or even consider other targets, his original "questions" on Hana-san had nothing to do with actually finding her alignment. The fitz I remember from Tenements at least gave thought to other possibilities, but this fitz here apparently doesn't give a damn.
^^^

I don't even get an answer to my post (or to most of anything that Tammy and Syryana have posted about him). And this:
havingfitz wrote:
In post 391, Tammy wrote:I also did go back to NY146 where we played together and I was town and he was scum. Unfortunately the first 4? days was eaten by tigers, so I can't look back to his start in that game and I was a late game replacement.
So if the first 4 days were eaten by tigers how do you
know this
:
In post 369, Tammy wrote:I
n NY146 he tunneled on a newer player that was an easy target for pretty much the entire game.
And in that game he protected his partners, which is why his metaing mutley, but not his scum read has got me wondering about him even more.
God help Tammy if she's reciting things from memory, right?~

You keep putting this game off and pushing paper instead of addressing it, your suspect(s) (where are they?), and then play lost. I know you make a point of keeping things organized when you're Town and wouldn't let yourself fall into such disarray. Vote stays.


Laz: I don't need to give you a list of things you're doing wrong if you're Town. This isn't a Newbie game and I'm not going to hold your hand/
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Post Post #399 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:37 pm

Post by Tierce »

There's that Syryana case that I need to go through more deeply. But Nachoooo it's three days to deadline and havingfitz is doing some very very lovely prod-dodging and oh-god-I-don't-even-know-why-they-be-voting-me-help-help and I don't Trollyana to become a distraction when havingfitz cannot be bothered to muster the strength to scumhunt him.
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