Space Monkey Mafia: GAME OVER!

[Glork]

Questions for everyone:

In your opinion, what possible fesable explanations can explain for the lack of an N4 kill? Which of these do you find the most likely at this point?

What possible roles do you think MC might have had? Which of these do you find to be the most likely at this point?

[dahen]

1a) Killermonkey was blocked [40%]
1b) Monkeys forgot to send in a nightchoice [1%]
1c) Monkeys decided not to send in a nightchoice [2%]
1d) Monkeys were stopped by an unclaimed doc [7%]
1e) Thok had a one-time nightkill immunity [10%]
1f) Thok was unnightkillable until MC was killed (Ensign auto-protecting his superior) [35%]
1g) Something else [5%]

2a) Backup cop [30%]
2b) Role blocker [25%]
2c) Thok protector [25%]
2d) Something else [20%]

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Not voting: dahen Fritzler Glork klebian petroleumjelly VitaminR

With 6 on the bridge, it will take 4 to push someone out of the airlock.

[VitaminR]

Questions for everyone:

In your opinion, what possible feasible explanations can explain for the lack of an N4 kill? Which of these do you find the most likely at this point?

Using dahen's options:
1d and 1f seem pretty unlikely to me. The auto-block mechanism is something I've never seen before. 1b and 1c don't seem that realistic.

I think a one-shot night-kill immunity is an intriguing option, but one that is unlikely given the set-up.

The only option aside from the roleblock that I would seriously entertain is something involving MC's role. I think roleblock is the most feasible explanation at this point, though. The roles in this game have been fairly straightforward and that option fits it best.

What possible roles do you think MC might have had? Which of these do you find to be the most likely at this point?

Roleblocker, back-up cop and doc. Roleblocker and doc are unlikely, I think, although I find it difficult to draw any definite conclusions from MC's behaviour. As I've said before, back-up cop makes the most sense to me.

[klebian]

Questions for everyone:

In your opinion, what possible feasible explanations can explain for the lack of an N4 kill? Which of these do you find the most likely at this point?

What possible roles do you think MC might have had? Which of these do you find to be the most likely at this point?

No N4 kill. Hmm. I really don't know. Obviously from my point of view, a roleblock from you is not possible, but mc could've been a blocker and have blocked n4. Don't find a doc protection likely, but I think it's possible that scum decided not to kill. None of these seem especially likely, so I can't really say I find any likely. Although, thok having some kind of immunity seems at least somewhat likely. But I don't think it's more likely than any of the other options.

MC may have been a blocker or backup cop. I don't think he was a doc. I wasn't able to really see any meaning of an ensign that stands out, but then again, I would be able to get blocker from captain or cop from lieutenant either.

[petroleumjelly]

Are you implying that Thok, the

investigative

role, may have also had some sort of night immunities, klebian?

[klebian]

Although I see your point, I do think that if thok had died earlier than he did, town would have been at little information, and we would have very little chance without strong analysis and town play.

I now see the point in MC having some kind of thok-protecting role. It sounds somewhat viable.

However, I doubt he would then have a blocking role. Hm. I'm now beginning to reconsider the possiblity that I've been set up by Glork.

[petroleumjelly]

Glork,

If you blocked Klebian on Night Four, and during that same night there were no kills, why did you pursue Masterchief all of Day Four? Your actions are not aligning with the suspicions you've shown in the game with the information you claim to have had.

Did you leave any crumbs whatsoever as to whether or not your "role-blocking" targets affected your positions on anybody? Did you ever once crumb any of your targets whatsoever?

[petroleumjelly]

In fact,

Klebian does not strike me as being a scumbag at this time, but I want to read over all of his posts again.

I thought he was a SpaceMonkeyTown earlier, which is why I wanted him lynched, but I obviously need to reassess my post-revelation opinion on him.

Preview Edit: Actually, I just isolated Klebian's posts, and I see a couple of things that indicate that he might have been trying to fit in or associate with PJ, and buddy up to him in a way. PJ sortof addressed some of these, but I want to take a closer look at them in just a minute to see if I can talk/write my way through this.

Nowhere did Glork really mention the lack of CES-hammer as a "reason" for finding Klebian suspicious whatsoever on Day Four - the day

after

he claimed to have blocked Klebian (and even though that is the

reason

he is now giving for having "blocked" Klebian). This makes me think Glork has been thinking about his claim for a while, and has since tried to think of reasons to "justify" his "night-choices" upon his claiming of role and targets. And even though Glork claims to have "role-blocked" Klebian the night before where there had been no night-kills, he was still pursuing Masterchief

very

strongly (i.e. "He needs to die

NOW

"-type statements), while

then

thinking he can "reassess" his position on Klebian.

I'm not buying it.

Vote: Glork

.

[VitaminR]

I would very much like to see Glork explain that quote.

[Glork]

If you blocked Klebian on Night Four, and during that same night there were no kills, why did you pursue Masterchief all of Day Four? Your actions are not aligning with the suspicions you've shown in the game with the information you claim to have had.

As I said, I defautled to Doc-protection in this game. In Best of the Internet, I was a roleblocker and erroneously relied on my role/ability, which just led me to far more confusion than helping. That was my only experience as a (pro-town) roleblocker up to this point, and it weighed very heavily on my mind. Perhaps I went a little too far to the other extreme in my caution. Add to this the fact that I was trying to figure out what the hell was going on with the setup, and I thought to myself, "If I'm a pro-town Roleblocker, I don't want to jump to any conclusions unless I'm fairly certain that I actually have significant, damning evidence against somebody." And that didn't happen until today, when I realized there wasn't a Doc in the setup.

Did you leave any crumbs whatsoever as to whether or not your "role-blocking" targets affected your positions on anybody? Did you ever once crumb any of your targets whatsoever?

No, I didn't breadcrumb any of my targets. It has never occurred to me to do so. And even if I had thought about breadcrumbing, I seriously doubt that I would have done so while I thought I was scum. I likely would've been thinking that I was giving the town more information than the scums.

Nowhere did Glork really mention the lack of CES-hammer as a "reason" for finding Klebian suspicious whatsoever on Day Four - the day

after

he claimed to have blocked Klebian (and even though that is the

reason

he is now giving for having "blocked" Klebian).

Though you're right in that I didn't mention it explicitly, in my last post of D3 (Post 515), I once again accused Klebian of being scum even after understanding the alignment situation. The reason for this was my hesitation to hammah CES and his sudden "understanding" when Thok suggested that he was in the informed minority. That's why, even after realizing "hey, I'm pro-town," I still went after Klebs. No, I didn't specify exactly why; but it's evident that

after

I realized that Space Monkeys were scum, I

still

thought that Klebian was scum for

some reason

. In parrotting Thok's comment, I was agreeing with him that Klebian's defense of CES seemed reasonable for a scumbuddy, if few people "get" what's going on.

And as for why I went after MC the next day: he was simply hitting my scumdar much,

much

more during the next day. His play was scummy, and it was terrible. I don't regret having gone after him because of how certain I was that he was scum -- yes, even in spite of the lack fo a kill N4 and my having blocked somebody else. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand; I went after the player I felt was most likely to be scum. Which, though you may find it hard to believe, was

NOT

Klebian at the time.


Question, PJ: If you think that I made up the claim (and spent a significant amount of time thinking about it, as you indicated), what reasons can you find for me choosing Klebian as my fake target rather than Fritzler or Nightson? Why would the logical choice be for me to choose to go after

Klebian

, who was ultimately investigated as an innocent?

[Glork]

EBWODP:

The reason for this was

his

hesitation to hammah CES and his sudden "understanding" when Thok suggested that he was in the informed minority.

[VitaminR]

Glork, that doesn't explain why your opinion of klebian changed for the better after Night 4.

Though you're right in that I didn't mention it explicitly, in my last post of D3 (Post 515), I once again accused Klebian of being scum even after understanding the alignment situation.

That makes it even worse. How did you get from that, plus the roleblock, to the Day 4 posts PJ quoted?

[petroleumjelly]

As I said, I defautled to Doc-protection in this game. In Best of the Internet, I was a roleblocker and erroneously relied on my role/ability, which just led me to far more confusion than helping. That was my only experience as a (pro-town) roleblocker up to this point, and it weighed very heavily on my mind. Perhaps I went a little too far to the other extreme in my caution.

Add to this the fact that I was trying to figure out what the hell was going on with the setup

, and I thought to myself, "If I'm a pro-town Roleblocker, I don't want to jump to any conclusions unless I'm fairly certain that I actually have significant, damning evidence against somebody." And that didn't happen until today, when I realized there wasn't a Doc in the setup.

O RLY?

I get it.

What's to be confused about?

I understand perfectly.

If you're part of the uninformed majority and you look back at yetserday, you should understand, too.

It seems rather apparent to me that the Space Monkeys are scum, and that Gorillas are the town.

Unfortunately, I 'm guessingthat the Space Monkeys knew this, so "figuring it out" isn't nearly a viable method of confirming anybody.

It seems to me that you were in fact

not at all

"trying to figure what the hell was going on with the set-up", but that you instead "understood perfectly" what was going on with the set-up. In fact, you lynched Masterchief because he

failed

to understand what was going on with the set-up. From a Space Monkey point of view, Masterchief was

going

to be the absolute easiest person to push a lynch on - the fact that you did so still rubs me wrong, especially now that you claim to have role-blocked Klebian on a night with no kills, and that it took you

three days

to tell this information to the town, and this is after you left absolutely no breadcrumbs as to that fact.

PPE: Actually, you probably meant set-up in terms of power roles, but if that's the case, your post was badly worded, considering the most confusing part of the set-up for most players was by far the Space-Monkey/Gorilla twist.

However, I would think you are a good enough player that when you have information like

that

, you should have made it clear so as to hint you had something potentially damning against Klebian for if you died (and would therefore come up as "Gorilla Captain"). All it would have taken was 2-3 FoS's of Klebian in a row on Day Four to relay a red flag of

information

for the town should you have died.

Still, one of your quotes supports my original reading:

And even if I had thought about breadcrumbing,

I seriously doubt that I would have done so while I thought I was scum.

Considering you "understood perfectly" the twist, the second half of this should not have been a problem for you. You

didn't

think you were scum, and as such you

should

have made it clear you hade some inside information on Klebian.

Some questions:
1.) How did you expect the town to know that you had role-blocked Klebian if you had been nightkilled before this point? Or that you had any information against Klebian whatsoever?
2.) Did you ever breadcrumb the fact that you were a traitor?

Question, PJ: If you think that I made up the claim (and spent a significant amount of time thinking about it, as you indicated), what reasons can you find for me choosing Klebian as my fake target rather than Fritzler or Nightson? Why would the logical choice be for me to choose to go after Klebian, who was ultimately investigated as an innocent?

1.) WIFOM purposes. Obviously.
2.) If you claimed to have this information on either Fritzler or Nightson, I would have lynched you immediately. Having damning evidence against

uninvestigated players

for

three days in a row

before saying or hinting at

anything

is something I

would not

believe.

Your only saving grace here is that Klebian was investigated the night afterwards, which could potentially explain why you have hesitated to claim anything up until this point.

[Glork]

PPE: Actually, you probably meant set-up in terms of power roles, but if that's the case, your post was badly worded, considering the most confusing part of the set-up for most players was by far the Space-Monkey/Gorilla twist.

That is in fact what I meant.

And even if I had thought about breadcrumbing,

I seriously doubt that I would have done so while I thought I was scum.

Considering you "understood perfectly" the twist, the second half of this should not have been a problem for you. You

didn't

think you were scum, and as such you

should

have made it clear you hade some inside information on Klebian.

What are you talking about? I was referring to earlier in the game, for my Nights 1-3 choices...

when I thought I was gorilla

scum

.

Like I said, it never occurred to me to breadcrumb at all, and I

Some questions:
1.) How did you expect the town to know that you had role-blocked Klebian if you had been nightkilled before this point? Or that you had any information against Klebian whatsoever?
2.) Did you ever breadcrumb the fact that you were a traitor?

1) I didn't expect to be nightkilled, especially after Thok claimed. I figured that the scums would be going after investigated innocents, so unless I was investigated, I didn't feel as though I was in any danger. Had Thok investigated me, I might have claimed and mentioned that I had blocked Klebs on Night Four. I figured that both me and my information were perfectly safe, given the game-state.
2) No... I didn't. I wasn't sure if any of the scums knew about me or not. I wasn't sure if the setup was something like in Covert Ops, where a Leader knows his people's identities. I didn't know if I was an old-fashioned "if you get targeted, you get recruited" traitor. I don't generally like breadcrumbing in general anyway. I can't actually recall doing it any time other than as a mason. Not as a Doc; not even as a Cop. Dropping hints can be picked up by the enemy just as easily as they can the town, and I don't like giving out information that I want kept hidden.

1.) WIFOM purposes. Obviously.
2.) If you claimed to have this information on either Fritzler or Nightson, I would have lynched you immediately. Having damning evidence against

uninvestigated players

for

three days in a row

before saying or hinting at

anything

is something I

would not

believe.

Your only saving grace here is that Klebian was investigated the night afterwards, which could potentially explain why you have hesitated to claim anything up until this point.

I'm somewhat dismissing 1), as I was looking for something that didn't fall into WIFOM territory. If I were going for the win by getting the town to mislynch, I wouldn't rely solely on getting a massive WIFOM to work -- especially as I have a reputation for doing unorthodox things just because they are odd. 2), however, makes a lot of sense. I can't say that I would have thought of that, but that's at least the kind of response I was looking for.


To answer VitaminR: I looked over the thread early the next day, and I was less confident about Klebian as I had been earlier. Kleb didn't really fit the "lurky" description that I expected SMs to be employing. I also decided that, although his defense of CES was consistent with scum, it also made sense as somebody who thought he would protect a pro-town player to look good in the town's eyes -- something that Klebian himself mentioned he was intending to do at the time. Basically, I felt that Kleb's actions were consistent as either scum or as town, and the rest of his play didn't ping enough to make me follow my possible role-based information at the time.

[petroleumjelly]

Like I said, it never occurred to me to breadcrumb at all, and I...

Care to finish that sentence?

I didn't know if I was an old-fashioned "if you get targeted, you get recruited" traitor.

Now you're doing the same thing Klebian was doing. If you honestly thought "Traitors are recruited if they are targeted by scum", explain to me exactly how Gorillas were consantly being nightkilled? Did you just think the scum groups continually missed their kills and that there was a Vigilante who kept shooting down scum?

I also decided that, although his defense of CES was consistent with scum, it also made sense as somebody who thought he would protect a pro-town player to look good in the town's eyes -- something that Klebian himself mentioned he was intending to do at the time.

Basically, I felt that Kleb's actions were consistent as either scum or as town

, and the rest of his play didn't ping enough to make me follow my possible role-based information at the time.

1.) You previously stated that you blocked Klebian because he didn't hammer CES.
2.) You just said earlier that you thought he was scum:

No, I didn't specify exactly why; but it's evident that after I realized that Space Monkeys were scum,

I still thought that Klebian was scum for some reason.

3.) When you add 1 + 2 together, your reason for still thinking Klebian was scum was the fact that he hesitated on the CES-wagon.
4.) Now you are stating that his lack of hammer was consistent with both town or scum (read: inconsistent with your "reason" for blocking him).
5.) If you really thought Klebian was scum when you blocked him, it makes no sense to suddenly drop the case against him after you blocked him on a night with no kills.

[VitaminR]

I'm starting to agree with PJ more and more, but I'm still bothered by the lack of a kill Night 4.

PJ, what do you think happened?

[VitaminR]

To answer VitaminR: I looked over the thread early the next day, and I was less confident about Klebian as I had been earlier. Kleb didn't really fit the "lurky" description that I expected SMs to be employing. I also decided that, although his defense of CES was consistent with scum, it also made sense as somebody who thought he would protect a pro-town player to look good in the town's eyes -- something that Klebian himself mentioned he was intending to do at the time. Basically, I felt that Kleb's actions were consistent as either scum or as town, and the rest of his play didn't ping enough to make me follow my possible role-based information at the time.

An expectation of "lurky" behaviour doesn't seem all too solid ground to build your suspicions on. I don't know, I know that I would tend towards seeing everything a player does in a rather negative light if I had any role-related information that possibly implicated them. It would certainly become a strong factor if I did not have a read on them either way. Certainly concerning someone I have not played with that often (although I have no idea of how often you've played with klebian).

1.) You previously stated that you blocked Klebian because he didn't hammer CES.

That quote describes his stance after blocking klebian, it changed from before Night 4.

[Glork]

Like I said, it never occurred to me to breadcrumb at all, and I wouldn't have done so pre-revelation even if it had occurred to me.

Care to finish that sentence?

Sorry, that was just a reiteration of my earlier statement.




Also, PJ, you're getting the chronology of my stance towards Klebian messed up:

Pre-revelation, I figured he was SM-town.
After Thok basically claimed and Klebs defended CES, I thougth Klebs was scum. Subsequently, I targeted him N4.
Very early in D4, I decided that maybe Klebs wasn't scum, as I felt his actions were consistent with a GorillaScum, too. I was neutral in my stance towards him.
Partway into the day (during my 'analysis' of every player), after examining Kleb's posts much more carefully, I decided he was scum once again.
After Thok got an innocent result, I abandoned that entire train of thought.
Yesterady, as we started discussing the possibility of not having a Doc, Klebs slid back up my list as a possible GF role.
Today, I'm reasonably sure that he is scum.

Vote: Klebian

, by the way.

[Glork]

EBWODP: "...as I felt his actions were consistent with GorillaTown, too."


This game sucks.

[petroleumjelly]

Now you're doing the same thing Klebian was doing. If you honestly thought "Traitors are recruited if they are targeted by scum", explain to me exactly how Gorillas were consantly being nightkilled? Did you just think the scum groups continually missed their kills and that there was a Vigilante who kept shooting down scum?

Answer this.

Very early in D4, I decided that maybe Klebs wasn't scum, as I felt his actions were consistent with a GorillaScum, too. I was neutral in my stance towards him.

I don't believe this. You blocked him on a night where you thought he was scum: and then there were no Nightkills. And then you decided your stance was

neutral

towards him? Considering you attack players for the smallest of things, the fact that you had a

large

thing against him and you

didnt

attack him (but instead went for the lynchbait known as Masterchief) is a thought-process that does not sound believable to me whatsoever.

[Glork]

Now you're doing the same thing Klebian was doing. If you honestly thought "Traitors are recruited if they are targeted by scum", explain to me exactly how Gorillas were consantly being nightkilled? Did you just think the scum groups continually missed their kills and that there was a Vigilante who kept shooting down scum?

Answer this.

I didn't know (or think that I knew) how Traitors were being treated.

As I said earlier, I was trying to figure out how the Gorilla group worked:

No... I didn't. I wasn't sure if any of the scums knew about me or not. I wasn't sure if the setup was something like in Covert Ops, where a Leader knows his people's identities. I didn't know if I was an old-fashioned "if you get targeted, you get recruited" traitor.

Part of the reason that I didn't know was

BECAUSE

two Gorillas had died at night.

I don't believe this. You blocked him on a night where you thought he was scum: and then there were no Nightkills. And then you decided your stance was

neutral

towards him?

Yes. I went against my role information and changed my mind. I already mentioned why I was hesitant to rely on my blocking ability. And MC was hitting my 'dar much more at the time.

[petroleumjelly]

Glork, why is it you always claim to be sucky town whenever we're in a game together?

If you are town, your play is horrible. I seem to be constantly stuck between deciding if you are just playing badly, or if you are just plain scum.

<vent> If

I

ever tried to play the way you're playing right now, I can almost guarantee I would be lynched for it. </vent>

Unvote: Glork

in the meantime. I will need to think on this. Not happy.

[petroleumjelly]

Let's take a look at that Day Five voting, again. I'll even un-highlight Klebian.

PJ FoS: Glork (I)
Thok votes StD (1)

Glork votes Nightson (1)

PJ votes Glork (1)

Klebian votes Glork (2)

Glork FoS: Fritzler (I)
Glork unvotes Nightson (0) and votes Fritz (1)

PJ unvotes Glork (1) and votes Fritzler (2)
Thok unvotes StD (0) and votes Nightson (1)
PJ unvotes Fritz (1) and votes Nightson (2)
AndrewS votes Nightson (3)

Fritz votes Nightson (4)

StD votes Nightson (5)
PJ unvotes Nightson (4) and votes StD (1) and FoS: Glork (II)

Glork unvotes Fritzler (0) and votes StD (2)

Thok unvotes Nightson (3) and votes StD (3)

Fritz unvotes Nightson (2) and votes StD (4)

Twito votes Fritz (1)

StD unvotes Nightson (1) and votes Fritz (2)

Klebian unvotes Glork (0) and votes Save the Dragons (5)

PJ unvotes Save the Dragons (4)
Thok unvotes Save the Dragons (3) and votes Nightson (2)
StD unvotes Fritz (1) and votes Glork (1)
PJ votes Nightson (3)
Save the Dragons MODKILLED

1.) The 5 voters on the large Nightson wagon were:
Thok, PJ, AndrewS, Fritz, StD
--> 4 confirmed town, 1 unconfirmed

2.) The 5 voters on the large StD wagon were:
PJ, Glork, Thok, Fritz, Kleb
--> 2 confirmed town 3 unconfirmed

Chances are, the town just barely missed out in lynching Nightson the Space Monkey - we already know that 4/5 of the voters were town, and it's more than possible that all 5 of them were. I've been thinking this for quite a while - it seems no matter how little Nightson contributes and no matter how many votes he garners, he is never pushed over the edge into lynchville.

Vote: VitaminR

. I still think Glork could easily be scum with Nightson/VitaminR at this point.

[klebian]

Now you're doing the same thing Klebian was doing. If you honestly thought "Traitors are recruited if they are targeted by scum", explain to me exactly how Gorillas were consantly being nightkilled? Did you just think the scum groups continually missed their kills and that there was a Vigilante who kept shooting down scum?

Answer this.

I didn't know (or think that I knew) how Traitors were being treated.

As I said earlier, I was trying to figure out how the Gorilla group worked:

No... I didn't. I wasn't sure if any of the scums knew about me or not. I wasn't sure if the setup was something like in Covert Ops, where a Leader knows his people's identities. I didn't know if I was an old-fashioned "if you get targeted, you get recruited" traitor.

Part of the reason that I didn't know was

BECAUSE

two Gorillas had died at night.

I don't believe this. You blocked him on a night where you thought he was scum: and then there were no Nightkills. And then you decided your stance was

neutral

towards him?

Yes. I went against my role information and changed my mind. I already mentioned why I was hesitant to rely on my blocking ability. And MC was hitting my 'dar much more at the time.

Wait wait wait, 2 gorillas never died. What night were you referring to anyway?