Space Monkey Mafia: GAME OVER!

[Glork]

N2 and N3, gorillas were killed and I still thought I was GorillaScum. That's what I was referring to.

[VitaminR]

PJ, I can't say I entirely follow why you think I'm scum. There are a couple of reasons in your posts, but the warrants don't make any sense.

Chances are, the town just barely missed out in lynching Nightson the Space Monkey - we already know that 4/5 of the voters were town, and it's more than possible that all 5 of them were.

This assumes that a player is scum if they are voted for by pro-town players. That is a fairly untenable position.

I've been thinking this for quite a while - it seems no matter how little Nightson contributes and no matter how many votes he garners, he is never pushed over the edge into lynchville.

Which makes him scum how? Nightson hasn't contributed in his other games on the site either. As to not being lynched, what? There were a couple of players in this game who swung back and forth between safety and the noose. Also, why does that make him scum?

[petroleumjelly]

VitaminR, please show me the players who swung from "safety and the noose" since the revealing of the game's twist: that Gorillas were town.

This assumes that a player is scum if they are voted for by pro-town players. That is a fairly untenable position.

It actually

is

a tenable position. We have both played in quite a few games, and the majority of bandwagons on town have

at least

one scum on them; and if not on the final lynch, scum will have voted them at one point in time before hopping off the wagon. Nightson has been continually voted for by townspeople. Every confirmed Gorilla we have had since Day Four [AndrewS, StD, Thok, PJ] voted for Nightson, and yet the lynch couldn't finish. Twito never voted for Nightson... CES never voted for Nightson... Glork has only voted for Nightson when he was in little danger of being lynched...

There's also the further metagame (which I wasn't going to bring up, but oh well) that you know CES in real life, and CES was a Space Monkey: he probably asked you in particular to replace Nightson so you could finish off the game for the Space Monkeys. You are obviously going to deny this either way, though.

[Glork]

Twito never voted for Nightson... CES never voted for Nightson... Glork has only voted for Nightson when he was in little danger of being lynched...

Okay, here's the only problem I have with your idea on following voting records:

CES never voted for Klebian.
CES never voted for Fritz.
CES never voted for Dahen.
Twito never voted for Klebian.
Nightson never voted for Fritz.
Fritz never voted for Nightson.
Twito only voted for Fritz when he was in little danger of being lynched.
Nobody ever really voted for Dahen.
Dahen never voted for any remaining unconfirmeds (except his Page 2 random vote on Nightson).
Klebian did not vote for CES.
Nightson did not vote for CES.

The voting records are in fact consistent with Glork+Nightson/VitaminR as you present them. But they are also consistent with a whole host of other scumgroups: Klebian/Fritz, Fritz/Nightson, Klebian/Nightson, Anybody/Dahen.




I'm going to be very, very hard-pressed to lynch anybody but Klebian right now. I'm just dead-set in thinking that he's scum, and lynching him (in my mind, anyway) gives the best chance of finding his scumbuddy for the reasons outlined in my Post 877. If somebody can convince me that VitaminR, Fritzler, or Dahen is scum beyond like an 80% chance (since that's about how sure I am that Klebs is scum), I'll be persuaded to move my vote. Otherwise, I'm sticking with my guns.



Klebian, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the current situation. Who do you think is most likely to be scum right now? Who do you think is most likely to be their scumbuddy? If we were to lynch your top suspect as a Gorilla and have another day to lynch, who would be the other person on your short list?

When Fritz comes back from Mardi Gras, I'd like to hear him answer the same questions. I would also like him to answer my earlier questions from Post 900:

Questions for everyone:

In your opinion, what possible fesable explanations can explain for the lack of an N4 kill? Which of these do you find the most likely at this point?

What possible roles do you think MC might have had? Which of these do you find to be the most likely at this point?

[petroleumjelly]

Gee gosh willickers. Glork won't vote for VitaminR, and VitaminR won't vote for Glork. And they're the two I've been suspecting are scum together for much of the game. What to make of this?

[Glork]

Would you care to respond to my post with something other than banter and rhetoric? I don't like that you're still accusing me of being scum, and if I make a point to defend myself from an accusation (whether directly or by association), I'd like you to address that point directly.



Also, what do you think happened N4? I don't think you ever actually gave a definitive response. Nor did you answer my question about Masterchief.

[petroleumjelly]

Oh, I'm sorry. Apparently you're the only person in this game who is allowed to use banter and rhetoric, I keep forgetting. Please, forgive me.

1.) There are multiple things which could have stopped a kill on Night 4.
--> A.) Masterchief's role
--> B.) An unclaimed role (such as Doctor)
--> C.) A latent ability [such as something in Thok's role, MC's role, other's role]
--> D.) Purposeful no-kill
--> E.) Missed night-kill
--> F.) Redirected night-kill
--> G.) Instead of killing, Space Monkeys may have recruited somebody
--> H.) Blocked night-kill

I am not going to "definitively" guess at what happened on Night 4, because I do not know. Suffice it to say that I see more possibilies than you having blocked a kill and failed to tell the town about that possibility for this long.

I furthermore do not find it intelligent to

guess

at what MC's role was. Because The fact is we don't know. I am not going to base assumptions on information I can only guess at and cannot verify in any manner at this point.

[Glork]

So you're not going to jump to a conclusion on something you see as ambiguous with regards to night actions, but you are going to jump to a conclusion with regards to voting records, even though I just demonstrated that your chosen conclusion is far from exclusive.



Got it.

[petroleumjelly]

Yep. I'm not going to base things off role-related information, since we don't have any of that other than Thok's. Seeing as I think you're scum and your claim of information is inconsistent with your actions in the game, you can imagine why I'm not really taking you overly seriously.

I will, however, base conclusions off of voting records, since that's about the only thing I have to work off of other than Thok's investigations (which you are trying to invalidate by accusing Klebian of being a Godfather). Nightson + Glork have been acting weird all game, as you can tell from my posts upon replacing on

Day One

.

[Glork]

See, the problem I have with you, PJ, is that I feel like you're choosing to examine evidence and clues to the extent and from a perspective that crams them to fit with whatever theory or suspicion you

want

to believe, out of obstinance and stubborness. I felt that way when, after you claimed, you insinuated that I was a scum roleblocker, completely ignoring the fact that any non-brainded scum RB would have been blocking Thok starting N4, and I'm getting the exact same feeling now.


I'd like to examine your listed possibilities for the lack of an N4 kill, one by one:

1.) There are multiple things which could have stopped a kill on Night 4.
--> A.) Masterchief's role
--> B.) An unclaimed role (such as Doctor)
--> C.) A latent ability [such as something in Thok's role, MC's role, other's role]
--> D.) Purposeful no-kill
--> E.) Missed night-kill
--> F.) Redirected night-kill
--> G.) Instead of killing, Space Monkeys may have recruited somebody
--> H.) Blocked night-kill

A) Distinctly possible. As you said, we don't know what MC's role was. Still, it would require that you expect MC to have a role that could be responsible for
B) Highly unlikely. If there were a Doctor, they'd have a really freaking hard time explaining why they didn't protect Thok last night. And any claimed Doctor who claimed to miss the protection altogether would fall under my "Drunky McDrinksalot" category, as there wasn't even a deadline for night choices or anything last night.
C)

Very

unlikely that Thok had a latent ability; I think he would have mentioned or hinted at it if so, unless it was possibly a one-shot nightkill immunity -- which is something that you yourself seemed to reject earlier in the day.
D) Also

highly

unlikely. Scum have little-to-no reason to nightkill at that stage in the game. If anything, they would at least take a shot at Thok. If there was a Doc, they'd get the same end-result. If not, they'd kill the Cop. There doesn't seem to be any feasable explanation as to why the scums would choose to No-Kill N4. If you can think of one, though, I'm all ears.
E) Also highly unlikely. As I pointed out earlier, every unconfirmed had posted within like 36 hours of either the end of D3 or the start of D4. Though it's possible, I doubt that the scums would have missed the kill, considering we know that Twito was active around the time, and all the other players were also active.
F) A redirected Nightkill would still have resulted in a death

somewhere

, unless you intend to combine F with another option. F in and of itself is not a feasable option.
G) Also possible. In this case, that would point to Dahen more than anybody else, using your own logic. You questioned why I didn't drop any Traitor-hints, indicating that you thought that traitors would likely drop hints. Well a Space Monkey Traitor would be just as likely to drop traitor hints than anybody else. This could also point to you, incidentally, as you also dropped traitor hints. In that case, Traitors would have to show up as Gorillas pre-recruting (such as how Traitors showed up innocent pre-recruiting in Cadmium's Normal 51).
H) Ooh, that's me! Distinctly possible.


So, out of your listed possibilities, I find only A, G, and H to be the only real possibilities. I want you to go more in-depth, PJ. What do you think of my analyses of these possibilities? Why are you so hesitant to actually examine these possibilities in an analytical light? You seem

afraid

(or, at the very least, highly unwilling) to actually consider them, to actually look at how much they make sense if they hold true.

This is

exactly

what I see as more evidence that you're bringing up possibilities only to the extent that they suit your current desires. If you thought through these possibilities to their most logical conclusions, you'd find that most of the explanations you've presented are

not

fesasable. They're all

possible

, but I sincerely doubt that you think many of them are in any way likely. That's why, when I asked what everybody thought about N4, I wanted to know what option(s) they thought to be

the most likely.

Your attitude towards this whole "N4" thing is very, *VERY* unlike what I'm used to seeing from you. Usually in clutch situations, you'll examine every possibilty with the utmost in scrutiny. Here, you're choosing to pass this whole situation off because you can't

know

what happened. I don't get it. I really just don't get it.

[Glork]

Dammit, I keep doing that:

A) Distinctly possible. As you said, we don't know what MC's role was. Still, it would require that you expect MC to have a role that could be responsible for stopping the N4 kill. Such as a Doctor (which I already mentioned is unlikely, as Ensigns don't have any medical expertise) or Roleblocker (which has in fact been brought up as a possibility).

I meant to come back to this, as I wanted to address the other points while I was writing out this one. I simply forgot to do so.

[VitaminR]

VitaminR, please show me the players who swung from "safety and the noose" since the revealing of the game's twist: that Gorillas were town.

I'll try to have a look at this once I have more time. It was mostly based on my general impression after re-reading.

It actually

is

a tenable position. We have both played in quite a few games, and the majority of bandwagons on town have

at least

one scum on them; and if not on the final lynch, scum will have voted them at one point in time before hopping off the wagon. Nightson has been continually voted for by townspeople. Every confirmed Gorilla we have had since Day Four [AndrewS, StD, Thok, PJ] voted for Nightson, and yet the lynch couldn't finish. Twito never voted for Nightson... CES never voted for Nightson... Glork has only voted for Nightson when he was in little danger of being lynched...

In my experience, scum wagons also frequently have scum on them (especially if the scum players are in any way competent). One wagon of five voters a couple of days ago hardly constitutes evidence. Also, your assumption that I'm scum means that there were 0-1 scum on that StD wagon, which makes the difference fairly minimal.

There's also the further metagame (which I wasn't going to bring up, but oh well) that you know CES in real life, and CES was a Space Monkey: he probably asked you in particular to replace Nightson so you could finish off the game for the Space Monkeys. You are obviously going to deny this either way, though.

We keep MafiaScum and real life strictly separated.

PJ, you seem fairly frustrated with this game. I hope I have not contributed to that.

You were starting to convince me on Glork, but I'm finding it difficult to follow your logic now. I'm not really that sure

why

you are suspicious of Nightson and the points you're throwing out there don't really connect up that well.

[petroleumjelly]

<Refrains from swearing>

1.) I do not like this game.

2.) I am currently spending more time in other games.

3.) Do NOT use the burden of "diligence" on me EVER AGAIN. I am sick and freakin' tired of it.

I think you and VitaminR are scum, period. It is mostly gut, and I will scrape up whatever dirt I can to try and get you lynched at this point. Your claim is convenient, your claim is untimely, your claim is not consistent with your actions, your play has been consistently bad, you "understood" the twist of the game much too soon, your questions towards me/MC seemed trappish, your attack on MC rubbed me the wrong way (I especially did not like your "I am so good at this game" comment while you're effectively beating up on somebody who obviously cannot defend himself very well), you did not hint at being at a Traitor, you claim to have been "confused" while at the same time displaying confidence, you have been trying to draw connections to people

the entire game

instead of hunting for single scum, and there are probably more reasons which simply are not coming to my mind right now.

In addition, read through Nightson's posts: even when he was not sick, he specifically stayed away from giving any strong opinions whatsoever: he simply voted and unvoted, and never really participated unless he was poked at. I would consider this your "lurky attitude" you were talking about earlier, and yet you never seemed to bring it up. On Day One, you have had odd interactions with Nightson, which BOTH Ibaesha and myself mentioned. The two of you (including VitaminR the replacement) have distinctly veered away from voting each other, excepting for circumstances where the vote would be effectively meaningless, and even those votes were not based on very solid reasoning so that they could be taken off easily.

This post was written in less than five minutes.

[VitaminR]

The two of you (including VitaminR the replacement) have distinctly veered away from voting each other.

I haven't veered towards voting anyone. This is a possible lynch-or-lose situation and I'm not going to take my vote lightly (I'm not someone who is likely to do that in the first place).

[petroleumjelly]

Also, this is entirely stupid:

So, out of your listed possibilities, I find only A, G, and H to be the only real possibilities. I want you to go more in-depth, PJ. What do you think of my analyses of these possibilities? Why are you so hesitant to actually examine these possibilities in an analytical light? You seem

afraid

(or, at the very least, highly unwilling) to actually consider them, to actually look at how much they make sense if they hold true.

I hope you're not insinuating that I am trying to in any way "protect" Klebian. Unless you are going to theorize that we're

both

Godfathers who turn up innocent to Thok's investigations, calling me "afraid" of the implications of you having role-blocked a kill from Klebian is entirely dumb.

[Glork]

3.) Do NOT use the burden of "diligence" on me EVER AGAIN. I am sick and freakin' tired of it.

All I'm saying is that I wish you would examine the evidence you present more closely. Saying "all of these are possible, so I'm not going to jump to conclusions" is not the least bit effective if one can show (as I just did) that most of these "possibilities" are highly unlikely.

It is mostly gut, and I will scrape up whatever dirt I can to try and get you lynched at this point.

Okay, at least I know my "PJ is trying to look at evidence the way he wants to fit his theory" notion was right. Gut is not an invalid tool (and quite frankly, I'm surprised that you didn't mention gut earlier), but it shouldn't overwhelm your vision of the game as a whole.

Your claim is convenient, your claim is untimely, your claim is not consistent with your actions

It may be "convenient," but I think that it was approrpiate to hold back, given the earlier game-state (and, consequently, I disagree with your accustion that my claim was untimely).
I explained why I didn't think that I needed to claim: I expected the scums to go after confirmed innocents as long as Thok was alive and getting more information.
I explained why I followed the train of thought that I did, and I tried to make clear the chronology of my sentiments towards Klebian. You never really addressed that point after I explained how I thought your version of my chronology was mixed up. If it amounts to "I don't believe that you felt that way," fine. State that.

your play has been consistently bad

Ah, the burden of proficiency. I'm not even going to say any more on that one.

you "understood" the twist of the game much too soon

Along with 2-3 other players, as I seem to remember explaining earlier? You didn't get it. Numerous other players indicated that they did get it, Dahen, Klebian, and Nightson included.

your questions towards me/MC seemed trappish, your attack on MC rubbed me the wrong way (I especially did not like your "I am so good at this game" comment while you're effectively beating up on somebody who obviously cannot defend himself very well)

They weren't intended as trappish. They were intended to make you think 'wait a second... maybe I'm not scum afterall." Also, your argument about my "so good at this game" comment is absurd. Because I never jokingly proclaim my awesomeness when I've found scum, right?

you did not hint at being at a Traitor

All of three players (PJ, Zindie, Dahen) hinted at being a Traitor. I think that shows that tratior-hinting is

NOT

something that you should have expected Gorillas to do.

you claim to have been "confused" while at the same time displaying confidence

I was confident that the Gorillas were scum and that the Space Monkeys were town by partway through D3. Pre-revelation, I was not confident that I knew how the "Gorilla Scumgroup" worked. Afterwards, I was not confident about the setup with regards to power distribution. I don't see how this is inconsistent.

you have been trying to draw connections to people

the entire game

instead of hunting for single scum

Do I have to go start listing games where I focus at least as much on finding scum groups or pairings as on finding individual scums? I do not want to have to do that. I think I employ both strategies equally. I can think of a couple of currently running games where I go scumgroup-hunting, but I can't really cite those. Past ones, off the top of my head, are Sesame Street and Graduation.

I hope you're not insinuating that I am trying to in any way "protect" Klebian.

No. I was insinuating that perhaps you were going out of your way to get me lynched on completely unreasonable grounds. Irritated OMGUS sentiment more than anything else. It had just occurred to me that if scums needed one mislynch, lynching the Roleblocker probably guarantees their victory, whereas lynching another player leaves the possibility of me blocking a kill still. However, as I hadn't suspected you, I guess that doesn't really make much sense, as you would just make the kill and you+buddy would win anyway. So nevermind that.
The other reason is that I just wanted you to look at the broader perspective in a much more critical light. It just bothered me that you would bring up so many possibilities which are completely ridiculous.

[petroleumjelly]

And it also bothers me that you have saved your claim for when the town is probably in LyLo in order to push a final lynch. Guess we're even.

[petroleumjelly]

Also, no: your scum-pair play this game is completely different than usual.

For example... you began the game giving scum-pairings. Here's what I'm seeing:

Night One:

Glork claims to block InHim.

Day One:

Maybe MBL + PJ are scum-partners!

Night Two:

MBL dies, comes up Gorilla. Glork claims to block PJ.

Day Two:

I was right! Attack PJ! Also, maybe Zindie + PJ are scum-partners!

Night Three:

Zindie dies, comes up Gorilla. Glork claims to block PJ.

Day Three:

I was right! Attack PJ! Oh wait, guess I have to vote for CES. But maybe Klebian or PJ are scum!

Night Four:

No kills. Glork claims to block Klebian.

Day Four:

I was right! Klebian is scum, because I blocked him last night after calling him scum and there were no nightkills!

Oh WAIT. That

never happened

. Imagine! Instead, what we have is this:

Day Four:

Despite the fact that I suspect Klebian, and I blocked him last night, and there were no kills, let's lynch Masterchief! After all, he is arguably the absolute easiest person to lynch in the entire game, and the most likely person to not be paying attention whatsoever!

We also have this:

Twito hasn't really struck me either way.

This is

classic

scum-analyzing-their-own-partner rhetoric. After all, maybe if you don't comment on them, nobody will notice!

Glork then says the people he most wants to look at are:

{Nightson, StD, Klebian, Twito}

Night Five:

Glork claims to role-block FRITZLER. Guess what?

THIS WAS NOT ONE OF THE

FOUR

PLAYERS GLORK WAS SUSPICIOUS OF AT THE END OF DAY FOUR.

In fact, his specific quote near the end of Day Four:

Still pretty sure that both MC and Nightson should be dead ASAP.

Why gee? Why didn't Glork

block

Nightson if he thought he was scum? I can't

possibly

imagine!

Day Five:

Glork votes for Nightson first (without giving any reasoning), while also saying that he could see StD as a Space Monkey. He then switches to voting Fritz. He then makes a Twito + Fritz scum-group, but continues to vote Fritz, and

not

Twito. When Nightson gets in trouble, he offers to hammer Nightson but does not actually do so (despite the fact that Glork had been hammer-happy the entire game up until that point). He then goes after StD (read: not Nightson, or even one of his Twito/Fritz pair). Then either StD or Fritz are scum.

Night Six:

Despite the fact that Glork had blanketed Fritz, Nightson, or Twito as scum, Glork claims to have role-blocked Nightson.

Day Seven:

As soon as Day Opens, Glork suddenly remembers that he blocked Klebian on Night Four, a night with no kills, and pushes for a lynch.

Unvote: VitaminR, Vote: Glork

. DIE.

[Glork]

PJ, I didn't block Fritz Night 5. I blocked Klebian again.



Try getting your facts straight.

[petroleumjelly]

Question:

Why did you block Klebian again if you thought he was Gorilla Town? Either way, your actions don't make sense.

[Glork]

And now to reply to the rest of your post:

Also, no: your scum-pair play this game is completely different than usual.

For example... you began the game giving scum-pairings. Here's what I'm seeing:

Night One:

Glork claims to block InHim.

Day One:

Maybe MBL + PJ are scum-partners!

Night Two:

MBL dies, comes up Gorilla. Glork claims to block PJ.

Day Two:

I was right! Attack PJ! Also, maybe Zindie + PJ are scum-partners!

Of course D1 and D2 are going to be a little different. I thought I was scum then. Even then, I would argue that my play was *NOT* inconsistent with my past play. I attacked MBL and Ibbs/PJ for different reasons, and concluded that they were both scum (together). I did not begin my theory based on a scum-pairing. The Zindie+PJ was based on that, but I had the fact that MBL died as a gorilla to back me up.

Day Three:

I was right! Attack PJ! Oh wait, guess I have to vote for CES. But maybe Klebian or PJ are scum!

I addressed this already. I attacked you

before

the revelation, and I mentioned that I wanted to lynch Klebian both before and after the revelation.

Day Four:

I was right! Klebian is scum, because I blocked him last night after calling him scum and there were no nightkills!

Oh WAIT. That

never happened

. Imagine! Instead, what we have is this:

Day Four:

Despite the fact that I suspect Klebian, and I blocked him last night, and there were no kills, let's lynch Masterchief! After all, he is arguably the absolute easiest person to lynch in the entire game, and the most likely person to not be paying attention whatsoever!

I have also addressed this. I was very hesitant to rely on my block, and I had simply changed my mind about my late-D3 suspicion of Klebian.

We also have this:

Twito hasn't really struck me either way.

This is

classic

scum-analyzing-their-own-partner rhetoric. After all, maybe if you don't comment on them, nobody will notice!

You have to take into consideration the context in which I said that about Twito. It was when he and MC were going at it. I was sure that MC was scum, and I explained that I did not expect MC-scum to go down attacking his scumbuddy. Prior experience tells me that MC-scum attacks townspeople when he's on the verge of being lynched.

Glork then says the people he most wants to look at are:

{Nightson, StD, Klebian, Twito}

Night Five:

Glork claims to role-block FRITZLER. Guess what?

THIS WAS NOT ONE OF THE

FOUR

PLAYERS GLORK WAS SUSPICIOUS OF AT THE END OF DAY FOUR.

I explained this already. I blocked Klebian N5.

In fact, his specific quote near the end of Day Four:

Still pretty sure that both MC and Nightson should be dead ASAP.

Why gee? Why didn't Glork

block

Nightson if he thought he was scum? I can't

possibly

imagine!

Because I wanted to test the Klebian block again? Durrr.

Night Six:

Despite the fact that Glork had blanketed Fritz, Nightson, or Twito as scum, Glork claims to have role-blocked Nightson.

Also incorrect. I blocked Fritz that night. I don't see why this is an issue, though, as I named both Fritz and Nightson as possible scums at that point.

Day Seven:

As soon as Day Opens, Glork suddenly remembers that he blocked Klebian on Night Four, a night with no kills, and pushes for a lynch.

This is a

GROSS

misrepresentation. I didn't "suddenly remember" that I had blocked Klebs. I suddenly realized that there wasn't a Doctor in the setup. Do

NOT

twist my words or actions like that.

[Glork]

Question:

Why did you block Klebian again if you thought he was Gorilla Town? Either way, your actions don't make sense.

I DID NOT THINK HE WAS TOWN. HE WAS NEUTRAL IN MY EYES AT THAT POINT. STOP CHANGING MY STANCE TO TURN IT INTO WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE.


I'm done posting for the night. I don't like posting when I'm angry, and I'm becoming

very

frustrated. This debate will have to continue some other time.

[Glork]

EBWODP: Not even really neutral at that point. I was once again leaning towards him being scum, as indicated by my analysis during the day.

[petroleumjelly]

Oh darn, YOU'RE getting frustrated. Join the club, bub.

Last time you did this to me was Committee Mafia.

[Glork]

But the reasons are completely different. I'm getting frustrated right now because you're A) getting facts wrong and B) completely ignoring what I've said with regards to my stance on other players.

I do not like getting lynched at all. Ever. But I would be irate and appalled if I get lynched on such horrendous and blatantly wrong attacks.