Dota 2 Thread: REBORN SOURCE 2 HYPETRAIN NOBRAKES

[Natirasha]

It gives evasion and a disarm. Ghost scepters all around more useful because Halberd gets dispelled by BKB, but it has its uses.

[Staeg]

I've been playing pretty much only space cow these past days, and fighting him is not that hard:

Early game he has a MONSTROUS health pool. Can 2v1 dive towers against any hero ever if he has an oov (=orb of venom) and the divee doesn't have boots. Your supports NEED to carry early tps, because a space cow is going to charge at your mid or safelaner and he's going to get asspounded if there's no tp response.
Midgame is probably where he's at his strongest. Be aware that if you're ever visible, you might be getting charged. Most heroes can get solokilled by a space cow here, so walking around in groups of 2-3 (and/or standing behind a carry, in fog, while he farms) is good. Counterwarding also reduces the amount of time you spend visible and therefor when you can be charged.
Lategame supports are recommended to carry ghost scepters and force staves. Space cow will not be doing a whole lot of damage, but he does have 2 abilities that have lengthy stuns that go through bkb, and his damage is actually quite significant against lowly peasant supports.

Important notice: if space cow is stunned mid-charge, the charge will stop. If the target goes invisible, the charge will continue and the invisible unit will be visible, but untargetable.

[Saki]

But I only play mirana >_>

[Staeg]

What do you usually do as mirana? Do you bop creeps, are you alone in lane, do you buy wards?

[Saki]

I usually duo lane bot if dire, top if radiant
I try not to miss last-hits (though I usually miss around 1/4 of them)
I try to deny but I'm horrible at that
I don't buy wards
dunno how to use a courier, too >_>

I usually go like 7-0 after lane phase because I'm a good deal better than my mmr (only 15ish games played, but I've played dota on tft)
land an arrow in lane, kill secured

i start double slippers, pot, tango, 2x clarity
rush PT, finish shield and aquila, then go for manta
>_>

[Staeg]

Well uh
PMS (=poor man's shield) is generally terrible on ranged heroes
Phase are usually better than treads on mirana, but it's debatable
And you should indeed carry tps as soon as you can afford them if there's a space cow on the enemy team.

[Saki]

Well uh
PMS (=poor man's shield) is generally terrible on ranged heroes
Phase are usually better than treads on mirana, but it's debatable
And you should indeed carry tps as soon as you can afford them if there's a space cow on the enemy team.

so i don't need an early defensive item at all?
i tried phase out a few times, but i forget item actives from time to time and pt swapping saved my ass once or twice
and space cow usually charges me not my teammates

[Staeg]

See the PMS is not a defensive item for ranged at all, because it reduces all attacks you take by 10 before armor

The problem with buckler/vanguard/pms in general is that you either have low armor, in which case you get a lot of mileage out of your defensive item, but you still take a bajillion damage, or you have high armor, in which case you're not getting that much out of your shield. The general consensus among the high-tier players is that if you have low armor, you should get armor instead of a shield, and if you have high armor as melee, both a stout shield and a PMS is fine (vanguard in general is questionable, but some like it on axe/timbersaw). If you're ranged, well, the shield items are not for you. A bracer gives you far more, if you need a defensive item, but, no, you don't always need a defensive item.

Btw, if you spot space cow charging from more than 1000 units away, you have time to throw an arrow at him and stop him.

[Saki]

so i just sit on aquila and tangos in lane
and hope my lane partner can heal/peel/take damage instead of me?
fair enough

i actually did not know you could stun the guy while he's charging

[Staeg]

Oh yeah more fun facts about space cow: you can use items while charging, including TP. However, if you hit your target before your TP finishes, that will break the TP.

[RadiantCowbells]

Umm yeah spiritbreaker is OP has been op for 6 years.

[TheButtonmen]

Once valve has real servers again I'm debating trying to re-learn this terrible game by inflicting Doom / Silencer on yoloqueue randoms.

[Natirasha]

Here's my basic build for semi carries(of which potm is one). Boots>bracer>drum>phases>Yasha. Obviously this changes depending on the game and hero, but if you're a farming hero who's not pure farm(am sylla void etc) this build can pretty much never go wrong. PotM doesn't really need Aquilla, drums will give her more overall survivability while also helping damage and making her mana pool larger.

In general, Drum is just the best overall item in the game.

Space Cow is op still, no surprise. I'm waiting for the pro scene to start using him more. He's like a naga siren that can actually carry if needed.

[TheButtonmen]

Cow seems niche as hell, he's good at what he does sure but easy to counter play/pick and requires his team to be largely drafted around him. Not exactly what I'd call OP as hell, he's not even as pubstomp as a hero like Ursa.

[Staeg]

Space Cow is op still, no surprise. I'm waiting for the pro scene to start using him more. He's like a naga siren that can actually carry if needed.

pls stop
the only thing the two heroes have in common is their attack range and BAT ._.

[TheButtonmen]

Stag Cow is basically just Naga without the early net initiation, mirror image map control and jungle presence, -armor or song wtfery. You can see why people could find them comparable!

[Katsuki]

Cow is incredibly easy to counter if you have players who know how to properly tp support and counter-initiate (and baiting, with supports behind).

He falls off significantly if he can't snowball out of early and mid game.

[Natirasha]

Space Cow is op still, no surprise. I'm waiting for the pro scene to start using him more. He's like a naga siren that can actually carry if needed.

pls stop
the only thing the two heroes have in common is their attack range and BAT ._.

Okay, I was using hyperbole a bit. He's not OP, but he is damn good and underutilized in upper-level play(other heroes with that distinction include Necrolyte, Tuskarr, and Death Prophet).

So, what does Spirit Breaker have? From level one, he has nearly 700 HP and 5 armor. This guy just ain't taking harass from no one short of an Outworld Destroyer. He also has a strong disable that doubles as a gap closer(I forget right now if it goes through BKB at level one). In short, he's a fucking fantastic level one hero.

Without farm priority, he has an amazing aura and three skills that go through BKB. In a chasig llng situation, he wins all chases--only someone like Weaver can really successfully escape. This is why I bring up the comparison to Naga Siren--both are primarily melee supports who have strong lockdown potential that ignore magic immunity and can carry in a pinch.

He does need some amount of build-around-me, he loves someone with some global presence(hello Prophet) as well as someone who could use some setup for abilities(Gyro, Naix, Alch, Lina, Leshrac, etc). Due to his melee nature and lack of AoE, he is not good against Luna-style death ball lineups(actually great against split push though).

As for the 'countered by smart play' arguments, I would like to bring up another hero that people argued was countered similarly, Wisp. We can see how that turned out. While obviously this is a flawed comparison(Bara is a bit more telegraphed), they're global ability to punish overextension is similar.

Ultimately, I think Bara's place in the meta game is that of an aggressive trilane carry(position 3 variant), though. He wants some farm--enough to get a BKB or drums or something(MoM is most likely wrong in non-pub play), but he can be solid in the 4 position as well. The fact that he fights favorably with both Naix and Gyrocopter(and Alch to a leaser extent) are huge factors in his favor right now.

[Katsuki]

SB offers nothing in a teamfight with no farm though.

If he gets farm though he still isn't that good in teamfight. The only thing he excels at is picking off people and chasing, which is easy to counter by not being out of position and just fighting as 5. There are too many heroes that will out-carry and farm faster than SB.

Whcih is another problem, SB is terrible at farming. Can't push lane, can't farm fast. Which reduces him to a pub-stomping hero.

[Staeg]

I do think that he might have some place as a 4 that gets, like, treads, an OoV and then a really late mek if you want one of those or a halberd, if the situation is right (right now I can't seem to think of any situations where I'd want an SB, but you know).

[Natirasha]

SB offers months.g in ateam fight with no farm though.

Um, you know, besides powerful global initiation and multiple disables that go through bkb. Hell, Bounty Hunter adds less to a teamfight than Bara. I mean, he's no Magnus, but who is?

I still cannot believe the 'you just need map awareness/fight as five' excuse. If there is one lesson to take away from the past year of competitive dota, its that that excuse is complete and utter bullshit.

There was a time when Wisp was considered a weak hero. Luna was called pub trash for literally years in wc3 dota, then--with no buffs at all--she skyrocketed to one of the top carries at TI2. When Magnus came out, he was ignored for three months. Then he went on to become the most important hero for the next year.

In short, don't dismiss a hero as pubtrash.

[BBmolla]

Well uh
PMS (=poor man's shield) is generally terrible on ranged heroes
Phase are usually better than treads on mirana, but it's debatable
And you should indeed carry tps as soon as you can afford them if there's a space cow on the enemy team.

so i don't need an early defensive item at all?
i tried phase out a few times, but i forget item actives from time to time and pt swapping saved my ass once or twice
and space cow usually charges me not my teammates

How you can't manage to phase but can tread swap is pretty backwards lol

[BBmolla]

I do think that he might have some place as a 4 that gets, like, treads, an OoV and then a really late mek if you want one of those or a halberd, if the situation is right (right now I can't seem to think of any situations where I'd want an SB, but you know).

^

SB is pretty legit right now. Was played a bit as support in competitive play. Not in TI3 probably because teams want to go with something safer.

[Staeg]

HOLY SHIT IVE NEVER BEEN SO HYPED FOR A GAME

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[inHimshallibe]

(DENDI)------------------------------------------------------------------------------c HAO


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