Space Monkey Mafia: GAME OVER!

[Glork]

The reasoning for my initial "I agree that Dahen is probably pro-town" sentiment was based on his hint-dropping which you seemed to clear perfectly well. If you'll look, I even noted that I didn't expect scums to have a Soldier PM, so Dahen's hint-dropping seemed legit. It had not occurred to me at the time that SMs could likely hint-drop anyway, so I labeled Dahen as pro-town.

With regards to pressuring Dahen to post: This is something that I'm quite used to. In Mini 358, he was so quiet for so long that I actually threatened to

unvote and hammer myself

if he didn't speak up and come to a decision. You remember me complaining about how long and drawn-out that day was, PJ. In this case, I was more trying to inspire Dahen to post than anything else. The letter-format post was just me wanting to put pressure on him. Make him think that I suspect him more than I actually did so that perhaps he'd be inspired to post.

You're right that

NOW

hint-dropping means nothing. But if I

didn't think that scums might've had Soldier PMs back then

then yes, it was significant. Also, re: the "helpful" factor... I can't explain why I found it pro-town. I realize that scums will try to appear helpful, but Dahen's posts just struck me as genuine. I can't say much more than that. Call it gut.

More "let's hear from Dahen"... yes. Dahen is a pretty quiet poster. I wanted to hear from him. It's just a reflection of his posting style, I think.

I still didn't expect scums to have a Soldier PM. This isn't inconsistent in any way.

Okay, so I have the revelation that maybe scums would say "Gorillas probably think they're traitors... let's hint-drop!" I said that I didn't think that Dahen would be the kind of player clever enough to do that. My opinion of Dahen as a player has risen dramatically in the past month. SIHM "finished up" so to speak (it was abandoned), and Dahen performed reasonably well in that game. There's another game that I can't mention by name that has also improved my opinion of him as an intelligent player.
To make my stance about Dahen clear: On Feb 13, I did

not

think that Dahen would be clever enough. Now, on March 6, I

do

think that he could be that clever.

1) I said that about Dahen beacuse I know that I have tried to act pseudo-confirmed in the past when I've been scum. Look at Committee Mafia. I got strong support from an actual roleblocker, got the RB killed, and ran with the claim as a "pseudo-confirmed" player. That's just something I genereally expect scums to do. Dahen did not do that. Thus, I found it less likely that he was scum.
2) I would have expected Dahen to

attempt

to play the same way, but I would not necessarily expect him to

successfully

play the same way. It's often difficult to play your typical pro-town game when you're scum, no matter how hard you try.

You're right in that 1041 probably gives me every reason to think that Dahen is scum. And I am still keeping that possibility open. But I cannot shake my metagame towards him. I'm also taking that into consideration, and it's the biggest thing that Dahen has going for him IMHO.

[Glork]

1.) Dahen has not been investigated, so of course he is not going to act pseudo-confirmed regardless of his role. Nobody is or has acted confirmed except me, and that's because I am confirmed.

Alternatively, Klebian

has

been investigated, and

he

has never once acted like a pseudo-confirmed innocent. Does that make him more likely to be town?

Yes, it would. Except I believe that I've got role information that overrides that.


Incidentally, when I was glancing at posts just a moment ago, this one literally made me laugh out loud. Oh, how my opinions have changed.

[petroleumjelly]

FoS: Glork

[petroleumjelly]

Also, if anybody would like to point out the

huge

thing Glork did wrong there, I'll give you a jelly point. Limited time only.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

klebian: 2 (VitaminR dahen)
Glork: 1 (klebian )

Not voting: Fritzler Glork petroleumjelly

With 6 on the bridge it will take 4 to lynch!

[petroleumjelly]

No takers?

I have bananas. C'mon, it's not this difficult to post. I don't remember selling tickets to a "Glork and PJ Show", so I am under the impression there are supposedly other people playing.

[petroleumjelly]

Also, Dahen, explain to me how what you/VitaminR were hinting at was somehow "unaddressed" in role claims up until now.

I am a Gorilla Soldier. My role explicitly states that I am scum, which is making me want to delete this post as I'm writing it. I was somehow separated from the Gorillas, have become subsequently lost,

and I have no ammunition

, and I have been waiting for the Gorillas to find me for four nights. I have no night choices whatsoever. I have asked Stoofer quite a few questions about my role, and he has refused to answer any of them.

You posted:

...And I'll probably vote Klebian if Glork himself can look at his PM and compare it to his claim and tell where it differs the most.

Glork, if you can see what I'm thinking about and correct it, spell it out and I'll vote Klebian.

PJ (confirmed), if you see what I'm thinking about, say so, but don't reveal it!

The rest (unconfirmed + Klebian), if you see what I'm thinking about, spell it out and I'll probably think you are pro-town.

In fact, I'm not much caring for your narrow-mindedness you have been displaying (I get to do so because I'm jelly, so I am hereby disallowing you from any response along the line's of "but

you've

been narrow-minded!").

1.)

I am going to vote Glork or Klebian.

Do you still hold this opinion despite my most recent analysis on the problems of voting either Glork v Klebian when there are other alternatives?

2.)

If this is true, then

PJ must change his vote to avoid a no-lynch.

PJ, I like the efforts you are putting into this. Please keep it up. You're doing a good job, but I don't agree with your conclusions this time. I wouldn't call the game sad. I enjoy it very much.

No need waiting for Fritzler, let's get this vote in.

Two pushes for me to vote in the same post. These are exactly the types of things I look for near endgames; scum just want the game over with as soon as possible, and want townspeople to vote without first considering the consequences; and not only that, but "I don't need to wait for Fritzler", which I read as "I just speculated on a Klebian + Fritlzer scumgroup, so let's hurry up and lynch Klebian before Fritzler can respond". Definitely not kosher.

3.) Then you continue to poke for flavor (instead of going after scumminess, you keep trying to compare role PMs, which I am more than slightly disturbed by):

Klebian, I'm not totally impressed by your input to the flavor discussion. Could you please spell it out what you think I am looking for.

... when I actually think Klebian was

more

specific than you were looking for. I'll quote his response once more:

Well, I can't really see any encryption in Vitamin's post that represents the difference between glork's claim and my PM. He claims that he has the ability to convince other primates to stand down and take no action, while I am told that I was trying to slaughter the crew.

Weapons may be another difference, but that doesn't seem significant enough.

This has

two

particular distinctions.

-> A.) Weapons (with what I believe to be an implicit lack of ammunition)
-> B.) In Klebians words, he is "trying to slaughter the crew"

I, in fact, agree with Klebian here. Seeing as

I

had mentioned ammunition in my claim post, and Glork has mentioned weapons in his claim post, I

also

didn't think this was the "difference" you were aiming at. I thought it was the second I just mentioned here. And despite this, you acted as if Klebian had somehow not answered your question.

So now: care to answer why you thought the first was the "biggest difference" and not the second?

[dahen]

I see you want some more responses from me. I'll try to answer your quick questions and leave the rest unanswered as I can't take much time from work to post these days.

Also, Dahen, explain to me how what you/VitaminR were hinting at was somehow "unaddressed" in role claims up until now.

I didn't remember your post 530. The idea of weapons strook me when I saw Glork's claim. I didn't realize that you had claimed the way you did already. However, I'm glad that you saved this question to me until after Vitamin and Klebian answered, since they might have missed it from your claim as well.

Do you still hold this opinion despite my most recent analysis on the problems of voting either Glork v Klebian when there are other alternatives?

I'm not sure of your wording. I might vote someone else than Glork and Klebian, so I am looking for alternatives, yes. But I don't have my opinion formed yet as I have read what everyone has written but not put it all together yet.

So now: care to answer why you thought the first was the "biggest difference" and not the second?

When I read Glork's claim, what struck me was that he didn't have weapons. It was quite unrelated to his claimed role and therefore a part I thought would be worded like my own PM.

Then VitaminR said he knew what I was thinking about. He said he missed the first round, which I think was a good crumb. The problem was that he then as a response to me said that he had crumbed. I examined his last post and it was easy to see that weapons might be a factor.

When Klebian then claims the difference, he says that weapons might be a difference but not significant enough. I don't think scum would have very much difficulty to decipher that from VitaminR's post. Therefore I pressured Klebian for more detail, making it possible to interpret it the wrong way if he had to be more precise.

The fact that Klebian claims to slaughter the crew was not what I was looking for. But thank you from pointing his exact wording out, which also speaks in his favor.

You seem to forget that this examine-PM idea I got came from Glork's claim, which contradicted my PM in that particular regard.

[Glork]

I don't remember selling tickets to a "Glork and PJ Show"

I sold tickets.


The show is quite awesome. You should see it sometime.

[petroleumjelly]

How can I watch a show if I'm one of the actors? And do I even get a cut of the profits?

[klebian]

I don't remember selling tickets to a "Glork and PJ Show"

I sold tickets.


The show is quite awesome. You should see it sometime.

I want my money back.

PJ, no bananas for me, I guess. I mean, I could make a fair guess, but that's all it would be.

Dahen, I thought his wording was fairly clear. You said, "I am going to vote Glork or Klebian.". He asked if this was still the case-if you still thought you were going to only vote one of us. I know you respond to this line of thinking right after that, but I just think his wording was clear so it's kind of strange to make that statement.

[petroleumjelly]

Nope, nope, nope.

Just reread all of Klebian's posts. I don't think he's scum, especially when oupled with the fact that Klebian has an innocent investigation on him,

and

the fact that I highly doubt there would be a Godfather role in this game to further screw the town. And this means Fritzler is probably also town or else he would have just hammered Klebian (though it is possible if there is one scum left).

This brings me back to {Glork, VitaminR, Dahen}.

Glork's claim looks like a scum-claim. Dahen's crumbs mean nothing (and it could in fact be true that he is a Space Monkey traitor who was recruited on N4). And Nightson/VitaminR has pretty much nothing going for them.

Silly game.

[Mr Stoofer]

STARDATE 2054.1111:

Although activity on the bridge has kept the Power Circuits active, the Ship's Dilithium Crystals are so badly damaged that the power has to shut off eventually. The virtual "day" emulated by the Ship's Computer cannot keep going forever...

With no eviction in sight, the Ship's Computer has taken the decision that, regardless of the activity on the bridge, it has to shot down the power to conserve energy. If an eviction looks in prospect, it may be able to eke out a little more power to enable that to happen. Otherwise...

Deadline:

Wednesday March 14th 9.30am GMT

[klebian]

I think the important thing here is that glork had many days and nights to think over this claim. What I can see happening is his scumgroup being stopped one night, and then masterchief dying the next day. After more days of no discussion of the no kill, glork finalized this claim, and now people are believing this and saying that there isn't really a viable alternative. I think that glork's claim, while seemingly good in terms of flavor (I'm pretty sure this is the consensus we've reached), is, as PJ says, very easy to have been faked.

[klebian]

bump?

[petroleumjelly]

Three Conditions

1.) If anybody does not post within the next 24 hours of this post, I will vote for them immediately and support their death with a full head of steam. Nobody has mentioned anywhere being absent tomorrow, so nobody will have a problem. Excuses will not be tolerated.

2.) If everybody posts by said time above, then anybody who posts without voting (or confirm voting) will be voted by me immediately, etc etc.

3.) If multiple people either don't post, or do post but without voting, the order of who I will vote are thus:

Vote First - {Fritzler, VitaminR, Dahen, Glork, Klebian} - Vote Last

***

I'm not quite sure how you people to expect me to make a decision when hardly any of you are. I have the least information out of anybody in this game - I don't need to be told that I confirmed innocent, and I do not have the privelege of knowing any of your roles. Try helping me out, here. You all should be able to make a more informed choice than I can, and yet it feels like I am boxing with shadows.

[Glork]

I'm back. Not much has happened since I left, so I don't have much to say right now. I still want to lynch Klebian the most, though I'd be willing to lynch VitaminR if nothing else is going to happen. I *do* think that we should lynch today, because I think a No Lynch would just get PJ killed and then we'd be in even more trouble, as nobody else can seem to decide what to do.

[Fritzler]

Vote: VitR

i don't see dahen or PJ as scum, and as such both scum must be on klebian when there were three votes (or be klebian)
im seeing a vitR & glork right now

maybe klebian

[VitaminR]

PJ, I do see the advantage of voting the common denominator, but it's not that clear to me who that would be.

If it's Glork, then it would be Glork - dahen.
If it's klebian, klebian - Fritzler seems most likely. Klebian - dahen would also be an option.

That would make dahen the choice for today. I'd lean towards Fritzler over dahen, though. I don't really find that choice any easier.

At this point, I feel most confident about a klebian vote (so I suppose you would see this as a confirm vote).

[petroleumjelly]

I'm sorry.

I didn't see a vote or a confirm vote in either Glork's or VitaminR's posts. I therefore did not read either of them.

[VitaminR]

Last line, PJ.

But okay:

Confirm Vote: klebian

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

klebian: 2 (VitaminR dahen)
Glork: 1 (klebian)
VitaminR: 1 (Fritzler)

Not voting: Glork petroleumjelly

With 6 on the bridge it will take 4 to lynch!

48 hours and 42 minutes until deadline!

[dahen]

Dahen, I thought his wording was fairly clear.

Well, he asked about my opinion in relation to statement regarding votes.
My answer was that I consider other alternatives, but that isn't really an opinion. My opinion on who is scum and not is still under reconstruction.

I think the important thing here is that glork had many days and nights to think over this claim. What I can see happening is his scumgroup being stopped one night, and then masterchief dying the next day. After more days of no discussion of the no kill, glork finalized this claim, and now people are believing this and saying that there isn't really a viable alternative. I think that glork's claim, while seemingly good in terms of flavor (I'm pretty sure this is the consensus we've reached), is, as PJ says, very easy to have been faked.

Yes, I think Glork's claim is easy to fake. But that doesn't say much of the probability that it is fake.

PJ: I don't commit myself to posting at least every 24:th hour. I don't always have the time for that. It depends on the workload at work and at home, and I can't really tell ahead. Some days I only have time to read and do quick posts. Other days I have time to actually do some more complex thinking. And some days I don't have time to visit the site at all.

It would be a pity to be lynched because of this. Now I'm here though, and will try to check this frequently as we have a dead-line again.

You are right about putting pressure, though. And you are right that it we, the more or less unconfirmed should try to give you theories.

Let's go through this day again:
1. Glork claimed and voted Klebian
2. Fritzler followed and voted Klebian saying "we have time to come back and kill glork tomorrow"
3. Dahen FOSWITV Klebian, but wants Nightson to check in first.
4. VitaminR replaces nightson and reads up. No vote from Dahen waiting for result of read-up.
5. Fritzler unvotes Klebian saying "oops, I do think we're at lynch or lose". Was Fritzler distancing? Fritzler+Klebian possible as scum.
6. Glork unvotes to think the situation through. Now no-one is voting.
7. Dahen suggests Ensign is role-blocker.
8. VitR "I actually think Ensign fits roleblocker." VitR is thereby quite anti-Glork. I think he here tries to get a new wagon to start on Glork. This makes me think it's VitR+Klebian or Glork+Fritzler, although VitR+Fritzler also fits. Glork+VitR is possible, but unlikely.
9. PJ votes Glork.
10. VitR pushes Glork without voting. Could be distancing, but more likely wanting to create a wagon. Fits with a VitR+Klebian scum pairing. If Fritz or dahen would vote Glork now, VitR and Klebian could quicklynch and win, since there would be no RB alive. The same goes if we switch Klebian and Fritz.
11. Glork re-votes Klebian.
12. PJ unvotes Glork.
13. PJ votes VitR.
14. Glork suggest pairings as: Glork+VitR, Klebian+Fritz, Klebian+VitR, Anybody+Dahen. He doesn't mention Glork+Fritzler here.
15. PJ unvotes VitR and votes Glork.
16. Glork and PJ argues with lots of posts one day. No others involved.
17. Klebian's post #953 is weird. I don't know exactly if he is saying anything else that wanting dahen/Fritzler to talk. Why not dahen/Fritz/VitR, well, maybe because he want's a vote from dahen or Fritz in order to quick-lycnh.
18. Deadline 1 set.
19. Klebian votes Glork. Here we have two votes on Glork, making a quicklynch possible if VitR+Fritzler are scum. (feb 24, 1900 GMT+1)
20. PJ unvotes Glork and votes VitR. (It's the second time PJ changes Glork->VitR after Glork gets attention). Quicklynch with VitR+Fritzler no longer possible (feb 25, 22:26 GMT+1)
21. Klebian says "Glork, you do recall, that I haven't really trusted you since day 4?", but hasn't voted Glork until late in discussions.
22. Fritzler says he hates the game, but will probably end up voting Klebian. Interesting, since I see Fritz+Klebian as the only possible pair with Fritzler as scum.
23. Dahen gets back from vacation and starts his PM-theory.
24. VitR now votes Klebian! "I don't think I am going to end up voting anyone else." However, with the dead-line approaching, this could be a good strategy even as Klebian+VitR scum.
25. PJ switches back. Unvotes VitR, votes Glork. Quicklynch again possible if Frizler+VitR are scum. (feb 28 03:40 GMT+1)
26. dahen votes Klebian, thinking Fritzler+Klebian might be scum. Now quicklynching is possible even for Glork+Fritzler. (feb 28 15:05 GMT+1)
27. Fritzler asks Glork whom we would block if Klebian is scum, but doesn't vote. Speaks strongly against Glork+Fritzler as scum. They could have won here if they were scum.
29. PJ unvotes Glork
30. PJ says scum is Glork+VitR or Klebian+VitR. I agree, but think Klebian+Fritzler is more likely than Glork+VitR.
31. Glork unvotes. He thinks Kleb+Fritz is more likely than Kleb+VitR. If scum is Glork+VitR this is understandable.
32. PJ unvotes VitR
33. Deadline 2 set.
34. PJ states his 3 conditions and vote order: "Fritzler, VitR, Dahen, Glork, Klebian"
35. Fritzler votes VitR.
36. VitaminR confirms his vote on Klebian.
37. This post.

NOT scum:
Fritz+Glork
VitR+Fritz
Klebian+Glork

Possible scum:
VitR+Klebian,
Klebian+Fritzler

Unlikely, but possible:
Glork+VitR

Based on this Klebian looks as the vote.
However, taking into account the possibility that Glork might save us if we mislynch, I am open for a VitR lynch as well.

In that case, if we lynch VitR as town, then scum is Kleb+Fritz making it 50/50 for Glork. If we lynch VitR as scum, then he could still be scum with Klebian or Glork and we will have to guess right tomorrow.

Since I think Glork+VitR is less likely than 50% (see 8 above), I prefer a Klebian lynch, and thus

confirm vote: Klebian

.

As I said before, this requires PJ to change his mind. If he refuses, I will change my vote to VitR and blame PJ if we lose.

[klebian]

I need to amend some of my earlier conclusions, because part of this was based on a possible fritz-glork scumgroup.

I consider these 3 people possible scum: Glork, Fritlzer, VitaminR.
Possible scumgroups:
Glork + Fritzler (Impossible, because Fritz would have hammered me and Glork wouldn't be a roleblocker).
VitaminR + Fritzler (Highly Unlikely, because Fritz would have hammered, and Glork would have to guess the kill, and most likely scum would've won there, and later they could've quicklynched glork, as dahen said)
Glork + VitaminR has seemed the most likely one to me for a while. Dahen, I look at where you say vitamin said an ensign fits rb. He never really follows this up, because he appears to believe that while rb fits, mc would've claimed this. This seems like a fairly weak attempt at distancing to me.

Dahen, at your number 14. Glork/Fritzler is impossible, because otherwise Fritz would've hammered me.

I do not see dahen as viable. The n4 no-kill doesn't seem to be a recruitment, to me. I hope I'm not making a newbish mistake in ruling that out, but in my mind, I have declared that unlikely. Following this, I know see Fritz as fairly unlikely. The scumgroup that seems to make the most sense to me is glork + vitR. If we lynch glork and he is town, we lose. If we lynch vitR and he is town, glork would probably be scum. Eh. But I guess we'd be better off with a small chance than no chance.
I do not see a benefit from voting glork anymore. To believe that we have a chance of winning if vitR is town and we lynch him, I would have to consider a fritz + dahen scumgroup. However, there's no chance at all if glork is town.
Rereading my post 1072, I made some pretty crappy reasoning there. I think most of that was based on my thinking that fritz+glork was still somewhat viable.

At this point, I do now think that vitR would make more sense than glork. Glork can help us win tonight, while vitR can't.

Therefore, despite my (stupid) arguments earlier, I'll go with the glork-vitR scumgroup, but I'm going to vote vitR.

unvote, vote: VitaminR

[Mr Stoofer]

40 hours and 49 minutes until deadline!

Vote Count on top of next page