Open 539: Stacks on Stacks (This is Game...Over.)

[RedCoyote]

AT, what's your avatar supposed to mean?

Now the issue is if i dont unvote im scum by your logic, but if i do im avoiding looking like scum, which also makes me scum. Lose-lose for me, so imma just keep being contrary.

But didn't you already accomplish the latter when you voted TSB and immediately said that you weren't scum?

[RedCoyote]

I don't really see the issue there. Maybe.

Really what would be nice is to ask if anyone has played this setup. Basically getting to what mafia powers does everyone think are most/least valuable?

One observation I have... if scum do not recruit the Traitor, then the Traitor gets a 1-shot BP power. That could come into play later. Me personally, I think Role Cop would've been worth going for, but that's probably all I'd have wanted.

[RedCoyote]

Yes, the site has been down for me.

VOTE: Venrob until he answers my question.

[RedCoyote]

That overexplanation is crazy scummy

Agree 100%. He also ignored my question despite the fact that I asked him to answer it twice. Venrob's 12 is exactly like his 48: unsure and, as you aptly said, overexplanatory.

Top this off with the fact that Venrob didn't revote, and I'm now officially happy to be a part of the Venrob wagon.

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Hadnt, and still havent, read.

You didn't have the time to read one and a half pages of, essentially, a bunch of RVSish banter?

If scum pick 2 roles and do not recruit (either 2 +daytalk or just 2) then goon cop is useless and gets same result on everyone. By choosing daytalk aswell there is a better chance of giving town the useless goon cop. If i were scum Id prob do this.

I read this five times and I still don't know what the heck you're saying.

Why would a "goon cop" (I'm assuming you mean role cop), be useless? The town has PRs.

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Do a speed lynch ever end well?

Occasionally. I see nothing in Venrob's plea that makes me want to ease off. Self-voting is anti-town and, should Venrob flip town, at least we're ridding ourselves of an objectively anti-town player and not revealing any town PRs.

[RedCoyote]

Err, scratch that. I looked over the setup again, I know what Venrob is saying about the Goon Cop. I had just never heard of that role before.

[RedCoyote]

UNVOTE: Venrob

That post felt pretty genuine, honestly. I hate that Venrob already claimed, but I am willing to unvote anyway.

Also, I didnt re-vote? That is scummy? trying to get people lynched without good reason is town?

A vote is a very important tool not just for yourself but for the rest of the town. It needs to be used to help us analyze what you're thinking and why. I'm suspect of anyone that is reluctant to use their vote because everyone knows there is scum here somewhere. If you only have town reads, then you're not trying hard enough, frankly.

VOTE: anorway for 66. What prompted this? Also, if you really thought that the Venrob wagon was careless, why did you not vote someone that was on it?

[RedCoyote]

You asked me to vote someone.

You're being stubborn.

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TL;DR
8/10 would wagon again

Agree with this post. I do wish Venrob hadn't have claimed, but it could've been worse.

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rolefishing to find out how the goon cop works?

How is that rolefishing? I took it as Venrob was just making a note that scum have an advantage in not having goons because of the goon cop role.

Tell me, how did you get from "go ahead and lynch Venrob he's anti-town regardless of alignment" to "nope he's genuine imma vote someone for getting rid of an RVS vote" in under an hour?

Venrob reads to me as town for that outburst. I think he's telling the truth that he's only had access with his phone. I think he answered my criticism of him not reading the game satisfactorily. I think him voting himself was bad, but then when he thought it over and unvoted himself, that showed me he took a second to step back and reconsider what was best for the town. I don't think Venrob as scum would've been that conivving as to orchestrate something like that.

As for anorway, you don't see a problem with him criticizing the Venrob wagon and yet being unable to find a place to put his vote?

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Blow me. My call for a hammer was due to the ate and the self vote.

What do you make of him unvoting himself after he was asked to?

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I don't like that we stopped lynching Ven because his reaction "looked genuine" even though it was like his 4th reaction to what had happened.

Fourth reaction? ABR's L-2 vote and beyond is what I'm talking about.

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Buddy? Anyone?

Quit being simple. You can obviously check on that yourself.

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RVS was already over by then, and I prefer to unvote my RVS votes.

Yeah, and I prefer you voting to both of those.

And voting someone on the wagon would be practically a random choice to me, since I use a lot of time before establishing any town or scumreads.

I'm happy with my vote.

[RedCoyote]

Why are you voting Umbrage? (Living in the richest country in the world, and you don't even have a reason behind your vote, IT SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE!!)

Was this supposed to say "Why aren't you voting Umbrage?" or did you not realize that it was an unvote? I don't understand the first part of this otherwise. I agree with the second part though.

But going after an easy target is something I find suspicious. Is there no one on the Venrob wagon you find suspicious?

Both me and Umbrage were on the Venrob wagon for the record. What do you mean by "easy lynch"? Do you mean me, Venrob, or someone else?

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He is playing very much the same here as he was there (thus why i said it was getting confusing.)
Town won, and it was because red flipped scum.

I have over a hundred games on this site, so if you're truly basing your vote entirely on meta, then just having that one game is hardly doing your case justice. This is a weak vote. I still don't understand your previous ABR vote either other than you just being stubborn. I'm really starting to have trouble seeing how you're approaching this game as town.

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getting town vibes from anorway ftr

What does ftr mean? "For that reaction"?

Also, why did you drop our conversation? Am I to assume you agree with the things I said about Venrob?

[RedCoyote]

TvK, if you had to pick a wagon between anorway and Venrob, which would you pick and why?

[RedCoyote]

TvK, are you suggesting that Acidic is coaching Venrob?

ABR, I agree with you, but everything Venrob has been saying except for 73 leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. As of right now, I think I want them both to eat rope.

[RedCoyote]

TvK, are you suggesting that Acidic is coaching Venrob?

ABR, I agree with you, but everything Venrob has been saying except for 73 leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. As of right now, I think I want them both to eat rope.

OMGUS?

That's really what you've taken from my recent posts?

[RedCoyote]

Venrob, unvote yourself. You're acting like a child. You've played Mafia before, and you know how the game works. If you find yourself unable to handle the stress, then please replace out. As ABR says, you are harming your team regardless of alignment.

[RedCoyote]

Venrob flipping town changes my read on you; I think you're more likely to be town now. I wasn't as confident of my town read on Venrob as I made it appear, and I've seen suicidal scum make it out alive for posts like he made. I can see you having the same type of misgivings.

Just to build on this, 73 wasn't enough to outweigh all the rest of the bad play to me. I mean, literaly I weighed all the posts Venrob made in my mind up against one another. When I said that was the only post that sounded townie, I meant that.

What irked me in particular was him voting himself a second time. The first time I disliked it until 73 when he ultimately unvoted himself and I saw that transition as one of a townie. When he did it a second time, it struck me as someone that was being emotionally manipulative or overly tactical. I think it was a reasonable lynch.

Do you think Desperado was desperato to lynch the first bandwagonned player, regardless of who it was or what their alignment looked like?

It's funny you bring up Desp, because, once again, I think this is a good direction to go. He didn't seem to have the same misgivings about Venrob as we did. Umbrage didn't either. Good vote.

Town:
Redcoyote
Umbrage
Albert B. Rampage
Acidic_TACO

Null:
anorway
Formerfish

Scum:
Desperado
Shockwave Rider
Dont_Vote_Me
TvK

So-so list. I guess we have more disagreements than I thought. anorway still needs to be in the scum section. SR seems kind of town to me. TvK I really liked for town until Venrob flipped town, but I still think his heart was in the right place. For me, potential scum candidates are anorway, Desp and DVM. Maybe Umbrage and Former.

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DAT WAGON DISTANCE

I disagree strongly. I didn't care for SR's Formerfish vote, but it was reasonable. I don't even see what makes that juxtaposition of quotes you have here scummy. I see this as a player that saw a decent wagon on Venrob and pursued it. He then started reading him as town and was adamant about it. I have no problem with this.

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Makes no sense to me in hindsight as Venrob was town, Venrob was nervous and under pressure.

I disagree. It's weird to even phrase it like this... like, you're saying this was a good argument if Venrob was scum, but it's a bad argument now that Venrob has flipped town. I don't know. I mean, I get what you are saying, but I just hate the way this is phrased.

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"Makes no sense in hindsight?" "Seems counterintuitive now?" You've got to be fucking kidding me. This isn't a case, it's retarded fluff to distract from the fact that he's just sheeping Albert.

I agree with what you are saying here. I don't think that necessarily means AT is scum though. AT's contributions in that specific post are incredibly weak sounding. I may be bias though because I agreed with your overexplanation argument.

This is pretty fucking rich coming from the guy who said "Forget about a replacement, I'm hammering now."

This is a good point. Hmmm...

You're saying good things; why do I still get scummy vibes off of you, Desp? Is it just the Venrob thing? I don't know. I can't make up my mind on you, but I won't be joining ABR right now in voting you.

VOTE: anorway

I still don't like the way he carried anorway carried himself yesterday. He was very unsure of himself. I just now realized that the reason anorway acted so shaky is that he may have been thinking that Venrob was the scumteam's unrecruited traitor.

[RedCoyote]

No, I take it back, Desp isn't scummy. I want that on the record. I'm comfortable with him as a townread. Same with ABR. In fact, let me just make a scumscale here.

[

Town

]-----ABR-----TvK--Desp-SR--[

∙

]AT--Former-Umbrage---DVM----anorway-----[

Scum

]

[RedCoyote]

RC's town - he's wrong about everything but he's town

Give me more in regards to SR. I'm not seeing it at all. I could probably follow you on AT though.

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Bandwagoning moves the game along. If you would like to play a game where the game doesn't move, please stare at a wall for five hours a day.

Agreed. I don't like the rationale behind that vote either.

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Vote: Shockwave

I take it Venrob's flip doesn't affect your opinion on SR?

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"BANDWAGONING IS GOOD FOR THE GAME"

"DESPERADO IS SCUMMY FOR BANDWAGONING"

This is a good point.

[RedCoyote]

That hammer looked scum motivated for me, and he hammered a player he apparently had a townread on.

I thought he explained it pretty well. Also, if he hadn't hammered, do you think someone else would have?

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Oh great another fucking homophobe...
[...]
btw kidding about the homophobe part.

lolwut

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THEY NEVER MENTION EACH OTHER FUCK FUCK FUCK HOW DID I MISS THAT

What are you on about? I mentioned AT in my last two posts.

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Taco for trying to divert attention to me by pawning off the work to Umbrage.

Good point, but I'm still not buying the SR hate.

[RedCoyote]

Do you not remember what you wrote? Although this isn't the first time I've confused people about this. I'm just going to start quoting more of the person's post next time.

In 238, you voted SR for making an "off-the-wall" post. While I agreed with what you had to say about AT, I did not get what you meant by criticizing SR.

[RedCoyote]

I referenced both parts, actually.

I didn't bother quoting you saying that you didn't like SR's latest post because I figured you would know what I was referring to given the fact that you're voting him and all. Does this really bother you or am I reading that tone into your post?

[RedCoyote]

I see you quoting one thing and then referencing something else, in a completely different unquoted post, and expect everyone to catch on. What are your thoughts on DVM?

He's doing better. He still doesn't have much of a presence in the game though.

Redcoyote, can you make your vote more useful please?

UNVOTE: anorway; VOTE: Acidic_TACO

L-1.

[RedCoyote]

First I was buddies with Venrob, and now I'm buddies with AT. I wonder who my buddy will be tomorrow, Umbrage?

[RedCoyote]

Damn, I had an inkling that Desparado was scum, but I dropped that suspicion on D2. I never really suspected ABR or SR at all this game. All three of the scum played pretty well! Like the Mod, I was also really surprised that Desperado wasn't lynched over anorway. Everyone here was pretty cool except for Venrob; I'm very disappointed in Venrob. Thank you, Mod. gg all.