Game of Thrones

[ChannelDelibird]

This thread got ruined fast. Good job guys.

Talking about the show? How awful.

[Korts]

Spoilered names, scene descriptions, and trigger words.

And one other thing.

That they are shocked is a matter of fact and thus not interesting at any discursive or dialectic level. On the other hand, the pseudo-intellectual response from those who are shocked is. I can only feel deep sadness at viewers who can watch a young girl murder others in cold blood and a prostitute be shot at point blank range in the vagina with a crossbow and somehow claim that it is a sexual assault that puts them over the edge.

So you agree it was sexual assault, then? Didn't you just say that the director, who said that it was consensual, is infallible?

Are you agreeing with the director, or are you strawmanning his critics? It's high time you chose a fallacy and stuck by it.

(By the way, the shocking thing isn't that rape happens in Westeros. Bad things happen in that world, and that's pretty much the reason we watch it every week. No, that is not an issue. That is part of the story, for better or worse.

The problem, pretty simply, is the director's thoughts on the scene.

So, uh. Shut the fuck up?)

[quadz08]

It boils down to "if you're gonna write a rape scene in, call it what it is." It's frustrating not because there was a depiction of a rape, but because the director insists it wasn't rape

because Cersei liked it

. That's Rape Culture 101.

[absta101]

Seriously why do you guys give a fuck that the director thinks that isn't rape. I don't care what he thinks as long as he brings good content, and so far he has.

[Ythan]

Then find another discussion in which to participate?

[xRECKONERx]

Yeah that was definitely rape but I don't think it really matters if the director says he didn't think it was rape because it clearly was?

[AniX]

I don't know, absta, it seems to me the director's perception of scenes as opposed to how they actually appear is of critical importance. Sure, here, the scene works either way (though work very differently depending on what you "saw") but if a director intends a scene to appear consensual and it doesn't, in fact, appear consensual, he is NOT delivering good content because he is being a shit director. A director's whole JOB is to convey his intended message to the audience. If his message was "Jaime and Cersei have a sexual power struggle and they both consented", he failed at his directing job and it certainly is discussable.

I'm of split minds about the rape scene (and let's be clear, it was a rape) and its effects on Jaime's redemption.

On the one hand, I think we can all explicitly agree rape is bad and people who do it should feel bad. And what Jaime did was rape.

That said, how I interpreted the scene as it played out was Cersei not wanting to have sex on her son's dead body ("no, not here") and Jaime not really giving a shit ("I don't care"). While certainly still rape and certainly still egregious, it strikes me as much less "Jaime's redemption is now ruined" for him to have sex with her she would have consented to but for inappropriate location as opposed to sex she wouldn't have consented to under any circumstances.

[quadz08]

I am inclined to agree with AniX here.

[quadz08]

That said, it still seems extremely out-of-character for Jaime.

[xRECKONERx]

Eh, Todd VanDerWerff's take on the change:

Spoiler:

The more I thought about this, however, the more I kept coming back to the single biggest change between the books and the show, one that was basically impossible for the show to maintain: the point-of-view structure. By the very nature of how film and television work, the camera is usually going to serve as an objective observer, even if a story is told from the point-of-view of a particular character. There’s simply no way to get as deep into a character’s psychology as you can in a well-written novel with well-crafted characters. Martin is also capable of hiding twists in plain sight in prose in a way that the show simply cannot, as we’ve seen with Barristan’s arrival at Dany’s side, something that’s kept hidden in the books but can’t here simply because it would be impossible to keep the identity of an actor secret for that long. By limiting himself to particular points of view, Martin is able to control the flow of information; by sitting outside of those points of view, Benioff and Weiss are necessarily forced to manipulate the story in different directions.

All of which is build-up to pointing out that in the book, the reunion between Cersei and Jaime is seen from Jaime’s point of view. And once we consider that, those moments when Cersei has questions of propriety in the middle of their love making can take on a more sinister tone. What if we’re being kept from the true horror of what Jaime’s doing because we’re inside his head? (I think there’s evidence for this in later books, too, but that will necessarily have to wait for the spoilers section.) This may be me trying too hard to cling to dim hopes that Benioff and Weiss haven’t scuttled one of the books’ best, most complicated characters in favor of a shocking moment, that they’re, indeed, offering up an interpretation backed by the text. But I almost feel like I need to, because without that idea, we’re left with the thought that Benioff and Weiss turn to sexual assault of women a lot as a device to move the story forward. I’ll leave it there, because Sonia’s covered that ground wonderfully in her article, but it’s certainly something that gives me pause and makes me wonder what the two are trying to convey with what seems like a major change from the books.]

[Rhinox]

Commentary by Alex Graves on a certain scene in tonight's episode:
"Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle."

There are no words in English that can properly convey how pissed off I am about this. Do you want to destroy Jaime's redemption arc? Fine, but

call it what it is

. NCW knew

exactly

what his character was doing, he mentioned a while back that Jaime did something terrible in this season, so how come the director is so blind he doesn't notice that that scene is

not

how consensual sex works?

Goddammit. On my favorite TV show no less.

I'm pretty sure it was as much rape in the books as it was in the show:

Spoiler: Book Text

She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. “I am not whole without you.”

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue.

“No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath.

She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her.

He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

Just because she gives in in the next paragraph doesn't make it any less rapey in the book. show!Cersei also started willingly making out with show!Jamie so I definitely got the idea that some part of her wanted to have sex with Jamie, even if it absolutely was rape.

I don't see how this was much different than Dany's rape in the first season/book by drogo. In the book, she even says yes after she eventually gives in, while in the show she just sobs and cries the whole time. Book or show was clearly rape (just as this scene was), but the show was even more explicit/shocking (just as this scene was).

I guess I don't understand why this particular scene is so triggering but not the Dany rape scene in the very first episode of the series. If it is more the Director commentary, well I read your link and understand why you would react how you did to that particular comment, but I also found a hollywood reporter article with some of Alex Graves' comments:

linky

She's a wreck. Tywin is really going on about this historical stuff, and you slowly start to go, "He's kidnapping her only boy," because she's not going to have him anymore. And then he succeeds, and

then Jaime comes in and he rapes her. That was like -- you read the scene and go, "Wait, who's directing this?" I'm never that excited about going to film forced sex.

But the whole thing for me was about dead Joffrey lying there, watching the whole thing. (Showrunners) David (Benioff) and Dan (Weiss) loved that, and I was like, I wanted to make sure I had Jack in there as much as I could.

Of course Lena and Nickola laughed every time I would say, "You grab her by the hair, and Jack is right there," or "You come around this way and Jack is right there."

So, I don't really get a sense of

an undertone of "the director thought that it wasn't rape even though he's aware that the whole scene made everyone involved uncomfortable".

at all from these comments. Probably best to reserve judgment until we've heard comments directly from Graves himself, and not make snap judgments based on 3rd hand info from 1 or 2 internet website articles.

And I also found another article with some of NCW's commentary:

linky again

So is it rape?

“Yes, and no,” says Coster-Waldau. “There are moments where she gives in, and moments where she pushes him away. But it’s not pretty.

”

He adds, “It’s going to be interesting what people think about it.”

before you react, here's the whole context:

“It was tough to shoot, as well,” says Coster-Waldau. “There is significance in that scene, and it comes straight from the books—it’s George R.R. Martin’s mind at play.

It took me awhile to wrap my head around it, because I think that, for some people, it’s just going to look like rape. The intention is that it’s not just that; it’s about two people who’ve had this connection for so many years, and much of it is physical, and much of it has had to be kept secret, and this is almost the last thing left now. It’s him trying to force her back and make him whole again because of his stupid hand.”

<snip>

So is it rape?

“Yes, and no,” says Coster-Waldau. “There are moments where she gives in, and moments where she pushes him away. But it’s not pretty.

”

He adds, “It’s going to be interesting what people think about it.”

So, I don't really see anyone not calling it rape, even if Cersei "gives in" at any point. If some website would have just quoted the part I did in the partial excerpt, it probably would have got the same reaction. I don't really understand the anger at this scene, or surprise at shock value. I mean, by season 4 people should generally expect this kind of stuff from GoT right?

If anything, I think the failure of the scene was in either the acting or directing to better communicate just how much cersei was actually "giving in" while being raped, but the scene was always rape. I always interpretted the book scene as rape as well. Actually, the book was even more "It's not rape because she wanted it" than the filmed show scene was. Same with the Dany book scene. IMO, the show should get credit for making rape look like rape and be uncomfortable where the book is more ambiguous about it.

[Rhinox]

I guess basically I just said a lot of what anix just said in more words

[bv310]

https://soundcloud.com/djnadaone/ye-of-thrones

So, I found this today and thought it was awesome. Probably a poor time to post, but whatever.

[xRECKONERx]

In non-rape news:

- Charles Dance just fucking kills every scene he's in. Unbelievable.
- OH MY GOD. OBERYN MARTELL. APOSIUFJPA983JFP98JASP9F8IJAP9JF JESUS CHRIST HE'S SO FUCKING HOT.
- The scene with Podrick & Tyrion almost made me cry :'(
- The feel of Meereen and the whole last Dany scene hit the nail on the fucking head

[Korts]

To be honest though, and disregarding the director's idiotic (or badly edited, as it may seem) thoughts, I kinda get Jaime.

Spoiler: Jaime's motivations in my mind

He never had much love for Joffrey, and he certainly never really respected Cersei. And he's back in civilization after a long, long journey, except he's now a useless laughing stock in the King's Guard, his father wants to write him off, and not even the woman who has been there for him all his life has been interested in him since his return. He desperately wanted to assert some form of control in his life.

I mean, Cersei was emotionally wounded by her son's death, and she would have returned to the comfort of old habits even though she was repulsed by the man Jaime had become, but that's not how Jaime wanted it to happen anymore. He explicitly told her that he hates her, and that is precisely the reason he had to do it right there and then, disrespecting religion and family and her body and mind.

[ChannelDelibird]

Agreed on all counts, Reck. I'm pretty hetero but, man, Oberyn.

[ChannelDelibird]

Spoiler:

He explicitly told her that he hates her

Spoiler:

No he didn't? "You are a hateful woman... why have the gods made me love a hateful woman?" is the line.

[Korts]

I'm sure he loves her, but man, he sure as hell is not happy about it.

And Oberyn, yes. I wish I was a line in his script so he would say me with that accent.

[quadz08]

Spoiler:

He explicitly told her that he hates her

Spoiler:

No he didn't? "You are a hateful woman... why have the gods made me love a hateful woman?" is the line.

Spoiler:

I think Korts' point is that Jaime loves her but doesn't really like her anymore.

I dunno, I guess he is still the same guy that pushed Bran out of a window. He's more sympathetic now, but I don't think anyone can say he's not an asshole.

And good god yes Oberyn plz

[xRECKONERx]

I rarely get flustered because of someone's attractiveness but my god Oberyn has the whole package. That accent, that swagger, that commanding personality...

oh my gooood

.

[xRECKONERx]

www.arrestedwesteros.com

oh my god you guys

[absta101]

@Anix - Fair point. I was referring to his episodes from season 3 though. Ep 4 is one of the best episode in the series.

[Aegor]

How dare people be affected differently by different things! How dare people possibly have personal experience with some of these things and not the others!

That is not the issue.

No, I am not interested in your pseudo-intellectual discourse. I am not interested in discussing the rest of the episode at this point. You came in here whining that people were so bothered by a "narratively minor" scene with triggers all over that they weren't talking about the rest of the episode. Too bad, so sad. Nobody is forced to discuss other parts of the episode if they don't want to and that does not in any way speak of their intelligence.

I said it is merely a shame, because the episode has so much more to offer than one scene that happened to bother you.

[Aegor]

Explicit content trumps authorial intentions. Once the text is out of its creator's hands, they have no control over its interpretation - if the director wanted the

rape

to be debatable, he should have had

Cersei give consent

midway through.

Whether a creator has control over interpretation is irrelevant, since that is immaterial to how we should interpret something.

Consent is explicit permission given for something to happen. This is not a hazy thing, and certainly not here:

Cersei verbally denies permission, she struggles to assert her decision, and she does not retroactively give consent at any point.

Yes, in the episode, we did not see her give consent. I do not give a single shit about that at all in the first place, and given the director's statements, consent was at some point offered, on- or off-screen.

Physical arousal (

though I don't think there was any shown on Cersei's part

) in no way means a conscious endorsement of the act, either. Ever. Neither does acceptance: admitting that resistance is futile and trying to make the best of a fucked-up situation does not mean that the victim at any point actually wanted to have or continue having

sex

.

No shit, sherlock. You seem to think we have different definitions of consent; I assure you, we do not.

Those are the plain facts of consent, and the plain facts of the scene. It was

non-consensual sex

. Period.

So shut the fuck up.

We did not even see sex, so it could not have been consensual or non-consensual. If you are willing to assume that sex occurred after the scene ended, fine. I am equally happy to assume Cersei gave consent after the scene ended as well.


But even if the director had said it was rape blahblahblah, who cares? It is not inconsistent with Jaime's character anyway.

[Ythan]

If the director had said it was rape blahblahblah then they wouldn't be arguing with you right now.