Private Topics Discussion (Now with Mish Mash)

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Private Topics Discussion (Now with Mish Mash)

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:19 pm

Post by zoraster »

AnnouncementThanks to chamber's hard work, we now have a great new asset: Private Topics. These are designed to mostly replace QTs. The policy regarding these is:
Policy wrote:1.
Moderators of Mafia Games
. Private Topics are primarily for use by moderators of approved games (i.e. those that have gone through one of the mafia queues and marathon games when open). Examples of typical uses are Mafia Discussion Topics, Mason Discussion Topics, etc.
2.
Review Topics
. They may also be used for reviewing games. To gain access for review, PM the listmod of the queue for the game you wish to design. You will be given permission at this time.
3.
No Discussion Topics
. They may
NOT
be used for general discussion topics unless explicit permission is given to make one.
4.
Mish Mash
. Moderators of Mish Mash games who would benefit from the use of Private Topics should PM Xalxe for permission to create them. Permission will be granted on a case-by-case basis, depending on their intended function. Generally, they should only be used for topics which require multiple users to have access, not one-on-one discussions.
5.
Use is Not Mandatory
. Moderators may continue to use QTs if they wish.

Conduct in Private Topics will be held to the same standard as other MS topics. If asked, the moderator of a private topic MUST give access to the topic to listmods and discussion moderators.
Information


1.
Moderators, not players, should make Private Threads

2. Add any players you wish to have access to the thread.
3. The thread creation automatically defaults to "Private." This setting makes it so that only the Original Poster and included Users can see the thread.
4. To add more players or to remove access to a player, simply edit the original post.
5. At the end of the game, you may move the thread to "Public." This will allow anyone to see the thread.
6. Private threads will show up in both ego searches ("Show My Posts") and bookmarks/subscriptions.
7. It is not necessary to list yourself if you create the thread.

Creating a Private Thread Tutorial

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Image
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Beta Phase

We have tested this system with a number of games and it has worked nicely. Please be aware that we are continuing to test it, and you may use it at your own risk.
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Post Post #1 (isolation #1) » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:19 pm

Post by zoraster »

Thank you to chamber who worked very hard to get us these Private Topics. I can say from testing these out in my own game as well as elsewhere, these are a superior way to approach threads. It makes sure that your players will see new posts in private threads, it makes it so that you can review Role PMs in the formatting they receive (albeit with puke green background). It has been an altogether much more pleasant experience than using QTs.

I'll answer policy-side questions (or at least go back to the listmod team and get you an answer to those questions). I don't have all the technological understanding to answer coding questions, but I can try to answer to the best of my ability. Here are a few FAQs:

Can I use this for Mish-Mash Games?

Not yet. Xalxe is currently putting together a policy for mish-mash in particular, but it is our intention that mish-mash have some limited access.

It is allowed only if Xalxe allows it, which he will do on a case-by-case basis. Contact him.

Why the weird background?

One large concern we have with these private topics being within MS is that those with scum threads may accidentally post in the game thread causing irreparable harm to the game. To solve this, chamber has given Private Topics a different appearance.

No. I mean why THIS weird background?

It's functional. I wouldn't be surprised if we get one implemented that isn't quite so ugly in the future, but that's not something I have much familiarity with.
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Post Post #4 (isolation #2) » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:17 am

Post by zoraster »

i think the answer is never.

also, if you have been using PTs and now don't see the green skin, refresh your page.
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Post Post #9 (isolation #3) » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:57 am

Post by zoraster »

i'm just upset that my name is basically camouflaged.
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Post Post #12 (isolation #4) » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:07 am

Post by zoraster »

Generally speaking, listmods can get reports on posts and PMs and the like. Not so with Private Topics, where we purposefully didn't so that we don't spoil games. Basically we'll never ask you to give us access unless (1) we aren't in the game and (2) we have reason to believe something we need to act on is going on (usually being reported by someone).

Listmods could ALWAYS do this with QTs. If someone wanted to report activity in a QT, they simply linked a listmod to the thread. Given the restricted access with PTs, just linking won't work. You actually have considerably more control over knowing who has access to your thread now.

If I had to guess, it'll mostly be game moderators asking for listmod help in these threads anyway -- that's how it's been in the past with QTs. So it's only on rare occasions that we might be forced to ask a game mod to give us access.

We aren't going to start asking for this stuff willy-nilly or anything, and you can be assured we take game integrity very seriously. The listmod who gains access will never be one who is in the game.

EDIT: quadz ninja
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Post Post #14 (isolation #5) » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:29 am

Post by zoraster »

First, using QTs does absolutely nothing to stop what you see as potential abuse on our parts. A player reporting abuse can simply link us to the thread. This happens somewhat regularly. With PTs, at least you're aware when a listmod needs access.

Second, if a listmod asks for permission and it's someone in the game, you're going to (rightly) make a stink afterwards. Listmods don't want that, and any listmod that used that to abuse his position would be removed as a listmod. Again, you know exactly who has access.

Frankly, PTs should alleviate this concern -- not strengthen it.

This isn't some power grab. This is just to make sure that we don't get abuse where people say "neener neener" behind a Private Topic. That said, if you still feel more comfortable with QTs, we aren't going to make you use PTs.
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Post Post #15 (isolation #6) » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:33 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 13, Zachrulez wrote:I can't see how I wouldn't punish one of my players for doing that. (Not reporting me, but linking the QT without my approval.)
I understand you are concerned with this, and I don't want to sound like I'm being too harsh here, but if you punished a player for bringing something to the listmods' attention (unless that listmod was a player, obviously), I am fairly confident we would not allow you to moderate again.
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Post Post #19 (isolation #7) » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:08 am

Post by zoraster »

Zach, let me say it again: if you take any action against a player for bringing something to the listmods' attention, you are likely to have the privilege of moderating revoked. I don't mean to be mean about it, but I don't want anyone to be confused by this matter.

Generally speaking, we DO want a player to work through a moderator first. We frequently refer matters back to moderators when they come to us. Most things are best resolved at the game mod level as it is usually quicker and listmods wield sledgehammers -- game mods can use a scalpel. But that doesn't mean players are breaking rules by involving listmods. It is sometimes necessary.

As for why PTs alleviate your concern: you have control over who sees the thread. I could have access to all of your QTs and you would never know it. If I have access to your PT, it's because you gave it to me. The fact that a listmod can compel you to add them may stick in your craw, but at least you know they're doing it. If you don't buy it, feel free to use QTs.

For what it's worth, I don't want it to come down to a situation where we force a mod to give us access. I'm sure we'll politely ask first. I want to work with game moderators to make sure their games run smoothly and provide players a great time. I try to the best of my abilities to be a resource for game moderators rather than a harsh supervisor. But at the end of the day, we will keep tools at our disposal that make sure we can do our job.
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Post Post #21 (isolation #8) » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:15 am

Post by zoraster »

Lots!

1. You post from your MS account. As a mod, you can decide whether you want individual heads of a hydra to have access to the scum qt or if you want them to only be able to post as one head.
2. You make sure that only the people you want have access.
3. Formatting is WAY better, and uses bb code.
4. It reads top to bottom rather than bottom to top, which drives me nuts
5. You don't have to check another website.
6. You see it come up in your bookmarks, subscriptions and egosearch. That tends to mean much faster interaction with other people in the threads
7. Avatars. I don't know if I'm alone, but reading a thread without avatars, even with only a few people, gets confusing fast. Avatars help me a lot when reading a thread.

Those are the first ones that are off the top of my head.
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Post Post #23 (isolation #9) » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:46 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 22, Zachrulez wrote:So if a player links someone who doesn't have access, I assume something comes up saying they can't view the thread?
correct. it will tell you:
You are not authorized to read this topic.
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Post Post #26 (isolation #10) » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:55 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 24, Zachrulez wrote:On another matter, due to all the requirements that list mods have for what needs to be ready for review, I actually design the entirety of my games through quicktopic. Is there any consideration for access to creating private topics for this purpose?
yes. That's actually #2 on the policy list. Ask the appropriate listmod for access to create a review thread. If you already have access (because you're on one of the mod lists), you may create a review thread already.
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Post Post #33 (isolation #11) » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:52 am

Post by zoraster »

yeah. you don't need to be /inned to ask to have access to review. We'll notice if you illicitly start a game anyway. If you already have group access, just go ahead and make a review topic. We don't need to sign off on that. If you don't, we'll happily give it to you.
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Post Post #48 (isolation #12) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:50 am

Post by zoraster »

probably not necessary since you only ever have access to threads directed at you/public threads that we'll archive.

As for hydras, we're discussing it, and will get back to you.
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Post Post #51 (isolation #13) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:03 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 50, Cabd wrote:
In post 48, zoraster wrote:As for hydras, we're discussing it, and will get back to you.
Wooooops, already made one. My bad. I assumed it was taking on pretty much ALL mafia QT related duties.
I can see why you might assume that, but...
Moderators, not players, should make Private Threads
It was in big bold letters for a reason.
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Post Post #54 (isolation #14) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:13 am

Post by zoraster »

completely agree, Cabd. I think that should be Standard Operating Procedure from now on.
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Post Post #57 (isolation #15) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:20 am

Post by zoraster »

I don't know why you'd do it that way. using more dice actually just makes it more likely people will share the same roll. I'd rather just do 1d100 for each player.
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Post Post #59 (isolation #16) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:24 am

Post by zoraster »

yeah. you just have to make sure to post the role to number list in the same post as the dice or else you could tamper with that to suit the rolls.
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Post Post #66 (isolation #17) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:45 pm

Post by zoraster »

True but your reviewers will see that. It is my theory that most mod cheating happens because it is easy and so difficult to get caught
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Post Post #71 (isolation #18) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:07 am

Post by zoraster »

I mean, it's nearly impossible to prove one way or the other. I think there's likely a lot of it going on. It seems pretty obvious to me. Regardless, I'll do what I can to be a transparent as possible with my selections, and now that can involve the dice roll.
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Post Post #73 (isolation #19) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:00 am

Post by zoraster »

oh, i think i can safely say the listmods aren't going to require random generation that way if that's what you're worried about. I'm speaking as a mod in general. I think it's good practice. Personally I'll take every opportunity to show my players I am giving them a fair game.

Also, the data didn't show that 90% of mods were randomly selecting. Theoretically, they could all have been selecting non-randomly, but if they did so evenly in each game type as a group, it'd be impossible to tell.
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Post Post #75 (isolation #20) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:23 am

Post by zoraster »

That's why in the past I've used RGAM, which involves posting the time of the draw, then in the recording showing the time and date website. Then doing the draw. Sure, I could edit it together, but it increases the cost of manipulation a lot and might result in being caught.

I don't trust you. I don't trust any mod. I don't think all mods who don't show their system manipulate at all, but I wouldn't be surprised if something like a third to half do so.

I doubt there are many mods who manipulate games hugely. I think it's likely that they randomly generate and then look at it and either (a) think this is a crappy draw and redo the randomness or (b) swap a couple of players around to make for what they think is a more fun experience. I think mods do this in the hopes of providing players with a better game, so it's not like I think mods are doing this maliciously. But I think it goes on.
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Post Post #77 (isolation #21) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:43 am

Post by zoraster »

Rerolling is absolutely manipulation of results.

My general thought is that if I've been tempted to manipulate results (I have), and if there's a ZERO percent chance of being caught, at least some fairly sizable portion of the population will choose to manipulate. My desire to provide a completely unbiased game will not be shared by all those who share my temptation to manipulate.

Truth be told, the systems I put in place are there to help remove that temptation so that I don't have to wrangle with it every time I do a new game.
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Post Post #81 (isolation #22) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:10 am

Post by zoraster »

like a bad answer answer to an even worse interview question, it's just that I care too much; work too hard.
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Post Post #86 (isolation #23) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:01 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 83, RichardGHP wrote:I do the randomization way before sign ups even take place. Removes pretty much all temptation to tinker with the assignment. If you get a list which is not strictly desirable (e.g. the entire scum team taking up one single section), you will obviously want to reroll that. On that basis, I am not entirely opposed to zoraster's example a). But I think that altering the distribution any more specifically than that is just not good modding practice. Having said that, it absolutely should not be incumbent on the mod to prove that the distribution is random.
what do you mean a single section?
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Post Post #87 (isolation #24) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:03 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 84, penguin_alien wrote:In terms of using the dice tags, it seems to come with a decent chance of having to perform supplementary rolls some significant part of the time. Just looking at a Micro or Newbie set-up with nine slots, rolling a d100 for each player (it would seem that that's as high as it goes) only gives nine distinct numbers 69% of the time (back of the envelope number). One could roll for the player slot to get each role individually while readjusting the list after each roll, but that generates a whole lot of posts, never mind doing that for some of the larger games. The advantage of that would be the ability to see how time stamps elapse between mod topic posts, but it's still not proof against someone aborting and deleting partway through.

In terms of randomizing for any given game, it seems to me in my limited experience that one never knows how people are going to work in the actual situation, either as a scum team or as a complete player group. Trying to outguess the competence players will bring to the table in a specific situation seems like a good way to miss out on some surprising synergies.
You're reversing it. What you do is you make a list:

1. Cop
2. Doc
3. Tracker
4. Mafia Goon
5. Mafia Roleblocker
6. Mafia Godfather
7. Mafia Goon
8-17. VT

Then you roll for each player. Higher number is 1, lowest number is 17.

When I've done this in the past for various things I'll do two rolls at once: 1d100 and 1d50 or something. The second roll is only used to break ties.
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Post Post #88 (isolation #25) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:04 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 82, Mr. Flay wrote:
In post 75, zoraster wrote:I doubt there are many mods who manipulate games hugely. I think it's likely that they randomly generate and then look at it and either (a) think this is a crappy draw and redo the randomness or (b) swap a couple of players around to make for what they think is a more fun experience. I think mods do this in the hopes of providing players with a better game, so it's not like I think mods are doing this maliciously. But I think it goes on.
Counterpoint: It's not interesting when the New York Yankees play the Cedar Rapids Kernels. That's not a game.

Will I manipulate the draw to give a favorite player a favorite role? No. But there have been situations where the game benefits from a different randomization seed. As a Dungeon Master for RPGs, I can tell you that the dice hate you, and the players both.
As if we can really guess the outcome that well, but I'd rather have mods let the Cedar Rapids Kernels play the Yankees than have mods manipulate results to give what they think is a more even game. If I know you feel this way, I will 100% think to try to guess what you'd do as a mod, particularly if two poor scum players have flipped scum already.
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Post Post #100 (isolation #26) » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:19 am

Post by zoraster »

we don't often see people truly just trolling (abc and his alts notwithstanding), but we do occasionally get people who continue to post in games after they're dead. Players who have been force replaced/modkilled are the biggest source of this, often to argue with the mod. As much as I get a high from using the small modicum of power granted to me, it would be nice for a mod to be able to prevent that before I have to turn to the banhammer. Still, I don't think this is exactly high priority.

As for the hydra thing, that's true, but hopefully eventually we'll get some alt-masking set up, but that's a Kison project.
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Post Post #107 (isolation #27) » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:55 am

Post by zoraster »

are you trolling? read the OP.
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Post Post #119 (isolation #28) » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:13 am

Post by zoraster »

If we don't trust the mod, this fixes that. or at least in regards to this. Just because I don't trust a mod to not manipulate results doesn't mean I don't trust the mod to not cheat in more obvious ways (e.g. telling his friends who's scum). Anyway, it's a way for a mod to gain and keep trust from the beginning.

I mean, use this method or don't, but no need to get upset at people who are using it.

As for the others, it doesn't really matter how you do it so long as the basic idea is there: post a list of roles, generate values for players (or vice versa). I think some ways are somewhat superior in that they reduce the need to roll a second time, but it's a minor point.
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Post Post #123 (isolation #29) » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:28 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 120, Jake from State Farm wrote:why would a mod tell his friends who scum is? lol
Why? Because he's colluding with his friends. Do I think mods do this? Almost never. But that's my point.
In post 121, Zachrulez wrote:
In post 119, zoraster wrote:If we don't trust the mod, this fixes that. or at least in regards to this. Just because I don't trust a mod to not manipulate results doesn't mean I don't trust the mod to not cheat in more obvious ways (e.g. telling his friends who's scum). Anyway, it's a way for a mod to gain and keep trust from the beginning.

I mean, use this method or don't, but no need to get upset at people who are using it.
It just annoys me because there's a program that exists specifically for the purpose of randomizing roles. If it was built into the site somehow, I would have no problem using it. But rolling dice for the benefit of verification vs the random generator shell... I'm going to pick the page that's specifically designed for it vs the faults that the dice tags have.

I also don't think it was ever clarified that the dice couldn't be manipulated anyway.
It fulfills the purpose of randomly assigning, but it does not fulfill the specific purpose of letting your players know you aren't manipulating.

The biggest way you can manipulate it is by deleting the post. But you run the risk of a reviewer seeing you do this, plus that kind of thing is on the system. Flay indicated there may be a way to do so more directly, but I haven't figured out how to do that, so unless someone is purposefully picking a system that makes life harder to manipulate and then manipulates, it seems unlikely.

The truth is that these attempts are designed to make manipulation much harder, not impossible. That was the point of RGAM too, which could be manipulated but why would you choose to do that and then have to do all the work to manipulate it? The dice roll/private thread is just another way -- a better way incidentally -- of doing that.
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Post Post #126 (isolation #30) » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:51 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 124, Zachrulez wrote:Are you talking about him telling friends that are actively playing the game, or friends that aren't playing that they might be calling on to be somewhat of a backup mod or a friend that just wants to follow along the game knowing all the rolls without actually playing in it?
I was talking about telling friends in the game. But again, my point is that I DON'T think mods are doing this, whereas I DO think mods are manipulating results.

Whether or not manipulation is technically allowed seems besides the point. We as listmods have announced and as of now have no intention of requiring use of the private threads like this. I can just say that I think it's a worthwhile thing to do. I am harshly critical of anyone who chooses to manipulate, so I reject the "Acceptable way to do it as long as players don't know." No. This simply isn't true. Acceptable from the standpoint that I'm not going to take action, but not beyond that. That goes for someone who'd regenerate because they think all scum in the first 3 on the list looks bad too.

I'm sure it's viable, but I'm not sure there's interest among the people who do these sorts of things in putting in the work to do it. We're talking marginal gains here, whereas there are other things that offer larger ones.
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Post Post #128 (isolation #31) » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:55 am

Post by zoraster »

I could generate 100 random.orgs and screencap the one that I liked best.
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Post Post #130 (isolation #32) » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:02 am

Post by zoraster »

I have no problem with people asking someone else to generate (reviewer/backup is obvious solution), though I'm not so eager to do so as the listmod. The issue is that it just pushes the temptation to manipulate to a second person. That person may not be as invested in the game, but that doesn't mean there won't be that temptation.
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Post Post #134 (isolation #33) » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:28 am

Post by zoraster »

oh it wasn't that i don't trust the listmods. I do. I just meant alternate people like reviewers. I just think that the listmods aren't going to want to do dozens of generations.

And yes, at a certain point, you do. But total blind trust isn't necessary and won't happen.
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Post Post #138 (isolation #34) » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:13 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 135, RichardGHP wrote:Why would you not trust the mod?
In post 91, RichardGHP wrote:
In post 86, zoraster wrote:
In post 83, RichardGHP wrote:I do the randomization way before sign ups even take place. Removes pretty much all temptation to tinker with the assignment. If you get a list which is not strictly desirable (e.g. the entire scum team taking up one single section), you will obviously want to reroll that. On that basis, I am not entirely opposed to zoraster's example a). But I think that altering the distribution any more specifically than that is just not good modding practice. Having said that, it absolutely should not be incumbent on the mod to prove that the distribution is random.
what do you mean a single section?
I mean, if the scum team is taking up three spots on the list right next to each other, for example. Or any such situations where the distribution isn't considered to "look" particularly random.
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Post Post #140 (isolation #35) » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:46 am

Post by zoraster »

he means that if that happened, he'd reroll. in which case, he manipulated it. He treated that choice as "obvious." So I have a hard time believing that he doesn't understand why I wouldn't trust mods when he's admitted he would do so and thinks it's an obvious choice.

I'm not trying to pick on Richard here at all as I like him and would play in a game he ran. But I am trying to dismiss this idea that manipulation doesn't happen as well as defend against this kind of absurd "why don't you trust the mod! if you don't trust him to do this, you wouldn't trust him to do anything!" argument I'm feeling. Because I am pretty sure it happens regularly. Whether that's a real problem or not is probably an open question, but I choose to do things to improve my reputation with my players, and I think they appreciate that. At worst they simply don't care.
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Post Post #142 (isolation #36) » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:06 am

Post by zoraster »

i'm not arguing anything other than richard manipulated the results. whether or not players can divine anything, the manipulation occurred. and now that introduces a new outguess the mod element.
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Post Post #145 (isolation #37) » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:43 am

Post by zoraster »

no, it's not bad. we'll clean up the private topics made public occasionally and put them in the archives.
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Post Post #149 (isolation #38) » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:21 pm

Post by zoraster »

i mean, it might be, but if it's accidental and truly unthinking, that's not really much different than closing your eyes and hitting "Randmize" 6 times before opening them.

as to the question: what do you mean?
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Post Post #160 (isolation #39) » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:36 am

Post by zoraster »

come on, that's not necessary. At the very least, at least RGHP is being honest, which is instructive.
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Post Post #164 (isolation #40) » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:58 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 161, Jake from State Farm wrote:in the past on another site I have done similar things to richard, an important role goes to someone who is a VI or something you want to re-roll it.

Right or wrong it is his right to set his games up however he wants so like he said if you don't like the way he does it just don't join his games. I wouldn't be surprised if more people actually did this but most wouldn't have the courage to speak up.
This is my point. I think Richard is just an example of someone who is willing to admit to it, whether he's misguided or not. I suspect he is just one of many. Which is why I don't think it's wrong for me to say I don't trust mods to secretly randomly generate without manipulating.

That being the case, there are gains by being able to verify (or at least partially verify) random generation. As a mod, I like that. As a player, I like that.

---

All that said, this is just one very tiny benefit of private topics on the whole. There are certainly bigger ones, and I don't want that to get away from us.
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Post Post #165 (isolation #41) » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:01 am

Post by zoraster »

ANNOUNCEMENT


The following will be added to the Private Topic policy:
Xalxe wrote:Moderators of Mish Mash games who would benefit from the use of Private Topics should PM Xalxe for permission to create them. Permission will be granted on a case-by-case basis, depending on their intended function. Generally, they should only be used for topics which require multiple users to have access, not one-on-one discussions.
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Post Post #167 (isolation #42) » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:26 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 166, Mr. Flay wrote:
In post 164, zoraster wrote:This is my point. I think Richard is just an example of someone who is willing to admit to it, whether he's misguided or not. I suspect he is just one of many. Which is why I don't think it's wrong for me to say I don't trust mods to secretly randomly generate without manipulating.
I'm legitimately curious what you think you gain by a permanent paranoia about the randomness of role generation.

Even if a mod fudges 15% of the time, it's not anything you can rely on or make decisions based on. Newbie Games showed a general and systematic bias against some setups, and we fixed that by having the LM roll for them. But for an individual mod, in an individual game? The fact that Richard MIGHT reroll tells you absolutely nothing about the setup. The fact that I might reroll tells you nothing. The setup is already so complex that the small chance of a non-random factor literally vanishes unless they are blatantly assigning PRs to their friends. In which case, would you really play that mod's game to begin with? It's not like you can 'verify' that they have randomly assigned the roles BEFORE that particular game is over, so what are you really gaining by all the hoops?
And I think that's a legitimate question that has a couple different answers, both of which are true.

1. Does there have to be anything "gained" by permanent paranoia? Particularly so if it is justified paranoia? I don't base my beliefs on what I'd like to believe is true.

2. That said, the reason this came up was when several people balked at some of us saying that using dice rolls in a private topic might be a good way to have verifiable randomness. If all mods everywhere always perfectly randomize their roles and never manipulate and every player believes this to be the case, this would be unnnecessary. But because I believe mods absolutely do manipulate, and I think other players share my belief, it works in my favor to provide new and better ways of proving to players that I am doing everything I can to give them a random setup.

You've made a lot of assumptions about what players might and might not take into account. I do not make the same assumptions.

As for what's gained even though they don't verify until after: I tell them beforehand that things are randomized using this method. Unless they believe I'm lying about that in a way that will get me in trouble when the game is over, they now have assurance I did not manipulate the roles. Regardless, the vast majority of players in my games, particularly my large games, are repeat customers. I tend to run multiple games a year.

That built trust is important to me, even if it is not to others.

You are free to randomize (or not randomize) your roles as you see fit. I have not suggested nor do I plan to suggest we mandate anything here. But if you believe there is an implicit criticism of those who do not strive to prove their randomness when such a thing is readily available, your belief is correct.
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Post Post #169 (isolation #43) » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:51 am

Post by zoraster »

Why in the world would that be? That is a patently absurd statement to make, and there is absolutely no reason for me to need to do that. It's incumbent upon you to show that imperfect randomization is not a problem if you want to justify it despite the fact that randomization is a pretty crucially held concept in mafia games.
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Post Post #171 (isolation #44) » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:17 am

Post by zoraster »

Well it's a little bit more work for the mod to put together, but is it inferior outside of that?
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Post Post #185 (isolation #45) » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:57 am

Post by zoraster »

the point isn't whether this is a reasonable inference for someone to use scumhunting. whether you think it is or not is totally and completely irrelevant. It's whether a player might use it. And it's pretty easy to see how that'd come about. And just because Richard could do something to punish someone who played guess the mod doesn't make that a good result.


I don't know what your point is here, Flay. People are saying, "here's a great way to verify randomness to my players" and you're lashing out for some reason.
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Post Post #192 (isolation #46) » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:51 am

Post by zoraster »

false. you can bookmark.
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Post Post #197 (isolation #47) » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:15 am

Post by zoraster »

PTs are required for Normal review. They aren't required for Large Themes, which require a reviewer but aren't overseen by me directly.
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Post Post #199 (isolation #48) » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:15 am

Post by zoraster »

for the normals?

They're created by Tierce. And by that point, she already has the submitted setup and posts it in the OP. It's easier for her and it's easier for the reviewers to keep track of the multiple setups under review at any time. Plus there are all the other benefits of using a PT such as being able to actually read the role PMs (an essential function of the review group) in the format it's going to be posted rather than BBCode.
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Post Post #203 (isolation #49) » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:01 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 200, Zachrulez wrote:
In post 199, zoraster wrote:for the normals?

They're created by Tierce. And by that point, she already has the submitted setup and posts it in the OP. It's easier for her and it's easier for the reviewers to keep track of the multiple setups under review at any time. Plus there are all the other benefits of using a PT such as being able to actually read the role PMs (an essential function of the review group) in the format it's going to be posted rather than BBCode.
The format it's posted in is BBcode. Quicktopic codes via HTML.

I don't think the coloring and coding format is essential to determining the normalcy of a role pm, but whatever.

I still think there some be some level of access for users to create private topics to design game setups. I will initially be designing my games in QT until there is some kind of access for that without having to ask for permission. (I'm stubbornly opposed to the idea that I have to ask for "permission" to merely design a game.)
I know. But when you post role PMs or what not into a QT, you can either (a) not format it at all and just have text or (b) leave in the bbcode. Whereas when you use a PT, you can do both: you show exactly what that role PM is going to look like. That makes it far easier to read as a reviewer.

And the formatting probably isn't necessary to determine normalcy, but why not use the tool we have?
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Post Post #205 (isolation #50) » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:05 am

Post by zoraster »

In the future it is possible that we might allow people more access to forming a private topic as we only want as much red tape as we absolutely need. It is far easier to give more access than it is to take it away, so we're taking this slow as we evaluate.

However, we're definitely not going to do so because someone has a hang up about asking for permission and thinks it's insulting to have to do so.
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Post Post #207 (isolation #51) » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:10 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 206, Zachrulez wrote:The point I'm making is that since I don't have the permissions to use private topic prior to submitting, I am just going to continue designing setups in QT and then porting to Private Topic since it's been required for reasons I can't fathom, so the reviewers will not see that benefit from me anyway.
Use it or don't use it.
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Post Post #209 (isolation #52) » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:17 am

Post by zoraster »

what i mean is: request access from us or don't request access from us. We are here and happy to work with you if you decide to use PTs to design your game, and I have not turned down a single mod who has asked yet. You have to use the PT if it's a normal, true. But you are welcome to "Design in QT and port over to PT" if getting access from us is so objectionable. But your objections are not the ones that will lead us to to provide unfettered access. So feel free to make the choice to do it as you've stated.
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Post Post #211 (isolation #53) » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:56 am

Post by zoraster »

We know.
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Post Post #226 (isolation #54) » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:39 am

Post by zoraster »

no. listmods cannot see all PTs.
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Post Post #246 (isolation #55) » Tue May 13, 2014 10:36 am

Post by zoraster »

i would be fine with this, particularly the "OP decides whether to allow editing or not" part.
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Post Post #249 (isolation #56) » Thu May 15, 2014 3:00 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 247, chamber wrote:Editing permissions are decided at the forum level. It would be very little work to turn them on for all PTs, but then, I don't see why someone should be allowed to edit posts in PTs more than they should be allowed to in a mafia game.

I have no intentions of doing the coding required to add topic level editing permissions.
Really the time it's annoying is for review threads, particularly the normal review threads where the OP isn't the primary person doing the setup. But a minor concern.
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Post Post #251 (isolation #57) » Thu May 15, 2014 4:56 am

Post by zoraster »

I believe you can flay.

1. Add user to the PT list
2. Change OP user to user.

I don't have permissions to do that, but you should be able to.
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Post Post #253 (isolation #58) » Thu May 15, 2014 4:58 am

Post by zoraster »

Okay. Maybe...

1. Change OP to Mr. Flay.
2. Add user to the PT list
3. Change OP user to user

When we were testing I had access to this stuff, but now that it's removed I can't test it out for myself, so sorry if these suggestions don't end up working.
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Post Post #255 (isolation #59) » Thu May 15, 2014 5:01 am

Post by zoraster »

i know you'd have to ask us, but for games, the listmods can do that for you.
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Post Post #258 (isolation #60) » Thu May 15, 2014 5:19 am

Post by zoraster »

yeah, the only time there's more work is if you ask us to add someone without a flake, but at least I do that somewhat frequently: hydra mods sometimes ask to have their individual accounts given topic mod permissions, sometimes a backup needs to take over for a week while someone's on vacation or whatever. It's not a big deal. If I were really on the ball, I'd add backup mods as a topic moderator to every game when the thread is created, but mod flakes for large themes are so infrequent it seems a waste of time.
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Post Post #279 (isolation #61) » Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:46 am

Post by zoraster »

A very good point. I have no problem with private topics being created for marathon games as that's clearly in the spirit of the rule even if it's not obviously by the letter. I have edited the OP to reflect that it is allowed.

My only concern is that right now mods gain privileges to create private threads through the system that also allows you to create a thread in one of the main mafia forums.

Short Answer: At least until you hear otherwise, feel free to create Private Threads for this purpose.
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Post Post #281 (isolation #62) » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:50 pm

Post by zoraster »

yeah. i'll set you up.
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Post Post #286 (isolation #63) » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:05 pm

Post by zoraster »

Sure. i'm testing something out. i've given you permissions for 5 days. i think after that point you'll still have total access to your thread even though you're not a large listmod.
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Post Post #288 (isolation #64) » Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:51 am

Post by zoraster »

sure
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Post Post #291 (isolation #65) » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:24 am

Post by zoraster »

it's far prettier and easier on the eyes generally, but i agree that it could be touched up a bit lighter or something for readability.
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Post Post #301 (isolation #66) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:00 am

Post by zoraster »

I want mine to be bright red and flash rapidly. Preferably blaring some klaxons.
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Post Post #310 (isolation #67) » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:31 pm

Post by zoraster »

I believe that QTs are only linked on google when they're linked in postgame chat, etc.
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Post Post #318 (isolation #68) » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:13 pm

Post by zoraster »

no
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Post Post #319 (isolation #69) » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:15 pm

Post by zoraster »

sorry, i should expand: I don't think it's possible without significantly reworking things (that would involve a lot of work by people whose usernames do not begin with Zor and end in aster.) As it stands, search is purposefully turned off because of the risk of being able to search and find things you shouldn't have access to.
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Post Post #324 (isolation #70) » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:24 pm

Post by zoraster »

Dice isn't one of the custom tags I can directly do much about.

I assume this is primarily an issue with reading on your phone. Do you need to do much dice work from your phone? Usually the dice is used as a method of randomizing roles.
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