Open 561: Farmer's Market (Game Over)

[don_johnson]

vote: TSO

I seen trouble all my days.

also, I need to brainstorm on this fruit thing. pretty sure its a gamebreaker.

[don_johnson]

two nights of no killing sounds reasonably helpful for town.

did I mention I'm a miller too?

oh and

DAYKILL: Aeronaut

may as well thin the herd...

[don_johnson]

"thin the herd"...

[don_johnson]

i'll be giving my fruit to hayato.

that said, let's get some posts up.

post 16 is a go.

unvote, vote innocentvillager

I'm not buying it.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote mathbandit

there it is. you guys are welcome.

[don_johnson]

^^ you're making this too easy.

[don_johnson]

hm. if 120 checks out fact wise, then I'd say its a good post. I hate sorting out walls though.

fitz: long time no see. what do you make of this nonsense and where do you sit on the fruit plans?

[don_johnson]

fruit below. check.

why are we lynching siv? I will try to read up here tonight, but a case summary or link would help...

[don_johnson]

@don_johnson:

• Why are you voting mathbandit?
  Did you ever check out the facts from post 120?
  Who are your top three suspects and why?
  Who are your top three town?

i'll present the mathbandit case when I return.

no. I'm not a fact checker. I was just commenting on the content of the post. if anyone checked the facts I would love to know.

I do not have three suspects atm. I need to devote some attention to this thread. right now I am on mathbandit for a couple of his posts early on, but that may change with a reread.

I don't have a top three town atm. but I will update that when I return.

v/la until Thursday July 17

i'll check in on Monday or Tuesday, but i'll be out of touch until then.

[don_johnson]

neil: I've been hoping to get time to put the mathbandit case together, but my initial vote stems from early on. give the thread a read and tell me what you think.

[don_johnson]

mathbandit. the case. I wish I had the time to sift through all of this. #87 is what confirmed it to me. the innocentvillager vote just seems a poor reaction to the recent three votes against himself. with part of the reasoning being "inactivity" which is a cop out on page four, and the other being "not observant of the mechanics, just mere posts after defending someone for having a different opinion on theory. just seems like a "shit, I'm getting found out, better brush it off and cast suspicion elsewhere" type post. that is really the crux of my original case. reread that couple of pages and tell me what you think given that context.

[don_johnson]

[quote= mathbandit]
As you said, it was Page 4. This means that the slightest little tell, that would normally be brushed aside, will instead be used to justify votes and such. Inactivity is one such tell. Another tell that I find to be mildly accurate is the pretense of now knowing Open information pertinent to the Scum. I would expect most Town players to know that Scum cannot Fruit + Kill. I would also expect every Scum to know that (s)he cannot Fruit + Scum, but I would not necessarily expect them to know that Town are aware of that.[/quote]

this seems to make no point nor justify your position. an inactive player is more likely to be ignorant of set-up than an active player. to accuse someone of "inactivity" in and of itself on page 4 is a cop out in itself. it reads much more like a diversionary tactic to me than it does a bonafide scumhunting strategy.

[don_johnson]

there is no logic to that train of thought. whether or not someone familiarizes themselves with the set up is way more of a personal playstyle type thing. this still does not address the other point brought against you. but seriously, you can talk til you are blue in the face(and hopefully you will), but your actions have determined your fate imo. the iv vote was terribad.

[don_johnson]

but seriously, you can talk til you are blue in the face(and hopefully you will), but your actions have determined your fate imo. the iv vote was terribad.

If you are claiming that my lynch was set in stone by a post I made on Page 4, I have nothing more to say to you. Not in this game, not ever.

well. that's overly emotional.

[don_johnson]

or we could agree that dj is awesome town all the time and realize that he has a knack for finding scum early and without having to read too much and then we could vote mathbandit and watch him flip scum. but whatevz.

[don_johnson]

bulge: I'm on v/la. plus, I'm normally lazy. if "lazy=scum" is your best read after 14 pages or wherever we're at, that's pretty sad. you haven't even addressed the point I

did

make about math. his complete avoidance of the wagon on him and his diversionary and weak vote on iv. but whatevz.

fish: no need to be testy. you do your thing.

[don_johnson]

I'm usually right.

[don_johnson]

^^ I repeat: "lynch this guy"

[don_johnson]

can everyone explain why they think mathbandit is town? I really don't understand all the whining in this thread. why does neil have to "read" anything he doesn't want to? I found scum on page 4. I'm not going to bother "reading" until I get the lynch I want and wake up alive on day 2. I know math is hating this, but I'm sorry, it's not my fault math drew scum and revealed himself so early with such a stupid post. you guys keep complaining, but none of you seem to want to work together. we're not going to go anywhere if we all stay voting different people. we need to agree on someone. if you want me to move my vote to progress the game, then I will, but I think it will be much more "fruitful"(haha) if you all accept that I am an excellent day 1 scumhunter.

tldr; kwitchyerbitchin' and vote mathbandit. the replacements may be more appetizing when we show them that we are a strong town and capable of winning despite the inactivity.

robo: it ain't your fault.

fitz: what's wrong with active lurking on day 1? its not a scumtell. lots of players active lurk on day 1. some even active lurk as a playstyle. neil's play is more likely better off judged once we have context(i.e. flips).

I say we lynch math and then don't give out fruit tonight. let's thin this herd a bit. it makes more sense to save our no kill nights for later(obviously not too much later).

[don_johnson]

dear god. "reading is not paramount to winning at mafiascum". it's just not. we can debate this til we turn blue, but its a playstyle difference. acting like a baby and threatening us is poor form. I'm here. I'm posting. I've posited a logical case against you. that's playing. if neil wants to coast, then vote him and campaign for his lynch, but you're not going to win over e=veryone if you're whole case is "he's not reading" or "he's not active". inactivity can be a tell dependent on context, but as a stand alone, it is simply a lazy and innacurate attack. grow up, please. if you're so sure you've found scum, then do seomthing about it. don't just whine and complain that other people play differently than you. have you taken the time to meta me? if you are so into reading, why don't you search some of my games? some of us don't read as much. deal with it and quit trying to control everyone else.

mod: can we get a votecount?

[don_johnson]

I say we lynch math and then don't give out fruit tonight. let's thin this herd a bit. it makes more sense to save our no kill nights for later(obviously not too much later).

No. That's a bad idea.

why? how does skipping our first night equate to a "bad idea"? is it a simple math thing?

[don_johnson]

No. I'm not going to devote hours upon hours to this game if others can't be assed to read the thread.

once you have read the thread, what else is there for you to do? I mean, how many "hours" are you really "devoting" here at all?

Choosing not to read the thread is not a "playstyle difference" anymore than it would be to claim that my basketball playstyle is to stand put with a baseball bat and swing at the ball if it comes near me.

horrible analogy. I have a winning percentage in both town and scum games. I'm obviously doing something right. I never insinuated that my playstyle is to randomly select people to lynch. I simply don't believe that "reading" is the paramount end all be all of scum hunting.

fact: good scum can post and look like good town.
fact: bad town can post and look like scum.

reading gets you nothing here.

votecount analysis, short term interactions, timing.
^^ all more important than what a player actually says.

reading sections of a thread can be much more valuable than reading an entire thread. are there times when an entire reread is warranted? absolutely. does someone need to pay attention and read every post on day 1? absolutely not. it can actually help if some townies don't take a central role.

but whatevz. I'm arguing theory with scum. if you were town you'd be doing something other than whining and arguing.

Well, don, saving our no-kills is a silly plan because what exactly do we gain?

thini the herd.

It's not like vig shots. You don't remove scummy players with scum nightkills. You remove the scum-decided towniest players. And the towniest players shouldn't be part of the herd.

that's a chance we take. even if a "townie" player gets killed, the herd is still smaller, their alignment is still confirmed.

There is an argument that this town is doing absolute crap at working out who the towniest player is and that maybe we should poll the scum, but still, we won't know their criteria and we can't ask the now decided towniest player what they think as they're dead.

first half of this sentence is great. this town has no standout leaders. their seem to be three factions here: those of us voting and calling for the lynch of a certain player, those lurking and/or inactive, and those complaining about the inactivity but doing nothing to help. my guess is that scum is in the latter group for the most part. but its a day 1 crapshoot for most of us. let scum thin the herd on night one. then we stop kills the next two nights unless we are lynching scum. two flips > one. there is no one on this playerlist whose night kill would break my heart and/or demoralize town or its chances for victory.

I kinda want to lynch fish or bulge. Could maybe compromise onto math, don or ice if deadline seems about to hit. Do not want to lynch anyone else.

can you post a case on your top two suspects? maybe even a full read list?

neil: very nice post. I see we have differing views on mathbandit. I saw his initial iv vote as a deflection from the growing wagon on himself. but whatevz. i'll vote siv with you.

unvote, vote: siv

[don_johnson]

I don't see scum math being this upset over inactivity. I just don't.

oh. of course. because scum never use tactics like AtE. [/sarcasm]

[don_johnson]

I still mathbandit is a good bet for scum.

unvote, vote:mathbandit

i'll switch back to siv if necessary, but I think this is the best vote. seriously.

[don_johnson]

when is deadline?

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote:siv

[don_johnson]

i got fruit.

[don_johnson]

someone died. unless the scum are paired, whoever didn't give fruit is scum. right? if aronis flips town, then we know a)dj is not scum b)ice is not scum(unless aronis accuses him of lying) and c) scum is in a pair. right? I don't know. this is gonna make my head hurt, but let me know if I'm wrong. what are the possibilities here?

[don_johnson]

bins: if you noticed, I didn't vote anyone. I'm not "jumping" to any conclusions here. I'm honestly trying to figure out what the possibilities are. rereading my earlier post, I see a mistake or two in my thought process, but this whole scenario is a bit convoluted. I don't think scum would be dumb enough to just not give fruit and kill. but on the other hand, they could easily play the dumb card and get two townies for one(me and bulge). so I guess it may pay to reread aronis at this point. I was saying mathbandit for scum from page 4 and I agree that neil has come out of the gate with nostrils flaring, so I could see that pair pretty easily. I thought the pairs were fitz' idea, no? if aronis does flip town, then that means scum is either ice or in a pair depending on what aronis says. I realize I can be implicated in some of these scenarios, but I don't think its accurate to say "dj may be scum if so and so" when I know I am not scum. so whatevz. we need aronis for sure. did everyone else check in so far?

Nobody could make a case on Math with a straight face.

a) I had a case. legitimate. math diverted attention from his own early wagon. its pretty obvious imo.

b) what's also obvious is your mathlove. why don't you let math defend himself?

[don_johnson]

someone died. unless the scum are paired, whoever didn't give fruit is scum. right? if aronis flips town, then we know a)dj is not scum b)ice is not scum(unless aronis accuses him of lying) and c) scum is in a pair. right? I don't know. this is gonna make my head hurt, but let me know if I'm wrong. what are the possibilities here?

I don't get how aronis town means you're not scum?

yeah. I think I'm wrong there. it wouldn't clear me.

[don_johnson]

I nominate fitz to devise another fruit giving schedule before we pile the votes on. but yeah, we can wifom this all day. one of aronis/ice is 100% scum.

[don_johnson]

oops. sorry, my last post was in response to the last post on the last page. are we ookay with the plan in post 701?

[don_johnson]

You weren't fruiting

You asked to change last minute, remember?


Don, are you still certain math is scum?

meh. not certain. I skimmed the rvs and aronis' hayato vote seemed a little odd. neil has been pretty scummy all game, but it could be his playstyle. I'd like to reread and see if there's any other connections to Aronis.

is it worth speculating on why there was a no kill? I'm not sure if it narrows anything down at this point. the other thing that worries me is that iceguy might get a pass for this. if ice is scum, then he's playing the longcon, so I'm not sure if that's the way to go, but I would like to here his opinion. letting him coast is not a good idea. i'll be back later.

[don_johnson]

I gave fruit to xay and received fruit.

[don_johnson]

neil: who did you fruit? I say your play is "scummy" because I feel you've been overly aggressive about small things while being overprotective and almost "whiteknightish" when it came to mathbandit. however, I still think math is more likely to be scum. his post today seems completely dismissive of everything we went through yesterday. bins seemed like obvtown to me. I fully expected bins to get shot.

also, there is no sane reason for scum to have not killed last night if they weren't giving fruit. this line of thought also implicates mathbandit.

neil: why are you clearing your own slot from aronis flipping scum?

[don_johnson]

I think we should be rereading and trying to find aronis' partner. imo, its most likely math or neil based on gameplay. once I get a read in maybe I'll have an actual case. ice's play yesterday seemed pretty genuine, and scumice means scum is running the longcon, which I find most players do not have the patience for. scum are usually trying to get things done as quick as possible. its a flaw, I know, because the longcon wins games, but its more of a rarity imo.

aronis' rvs vote is on hayato/neil. i'll reiterate that. I know its not an end all be all method of scumhunting, but it certainly piques my interest in neil. combined with neil's hurry up offense and whiteknighting of math, it makes for the start of a case. math, on his own, deserves a second look. ice would be my third choice atm, but that may change after a reread.

xay: I honestly think I should be the "most cleared" from yesterday. aronis' kill makes more sense as a framejob. why wouldn't aronis kill ice? I'm puzzled as to why scum shot at all. aronis seems to have been traded. and that's a pretty hefty trade, which brings me back to the longcon. which player stood the mostr to gain from the bulge kill and the ice/aronis standoff? imo, whoever survived the ice/aronis standoff was likely to be crowned conftown. fitz seems to have taken a dive in participation today which raises my hackles in that direction, because he seemed uber pro town until today. I don't know. I think it would behoove you to read the game at this point. that is my plan.

fitz: what are you thinking?

[don_johnson]

mod: can we get a votecount?

fitz or bins should be working out a fruit passing plan tonight. I have no more fuirt.

I do not know where my fruit came from last night. no one has owned up to it. either xay misread the instructions, or neil gave me fruit. I don't know.

I'm really hung up on the aronis thing. people think I'm scum with aronis, but that doesn't make much sense. why would scum frame themselves? why would aronis sacrifice himself for an nk? if scum is aronis/ice, then why sacrifice aronis? only reasoning I can see there is to eliminate the pairing. but why nk at all? I don't know. my guess is that the final scum is voting already today. that's gonna limit my focus on reread.

[don_johnson]

I think neil might be our guy.

[don_johnson]

isn't that a 180 on mathbandit?

neil: why mathbandit?

[don_johnson]

why? why would scum compromise both partners?

[don_johnson]

that is less likely than many other scenarios. dj wasn't anywhere near being thought of as conftown or beneficial town. why would aronis sacrifice himself for dj? it would make more sense the other way around. you should put a little more thought into it.

[don_johnson]

Why are you talking about yourself in the third person?

dj does that sometimes.

And i don't care if it the last thing that I would expect anyone to do, you know why? Because that is exactly what I would do as scum. Spread the most fog possible. Create the most doubt in the most obvious way to hide what was really going on.

if that's the case, then you should be voting iceguy. ice benefits way more from that scenario. but whatevz.

I have put thought into it, and the little ad hom comment is fucking noted.

relax, bro. no offense intended. I was just implying that you weren't following your thought through to the logical conclusion. if you think this was a mafia smokescreen, then you should be voting iceguy. or fitz, or bins. pretty much anyone but dj. I didn't exactly come out smelling like a rose here. you haven't even bothered to look for connections. your case is predicated solely on nk speculation that doesn't seem to be fully fleshed out. asking you to think it through is not meant to be an insult.

i think we should probably be lynching ice first. fish: i agree with your thought process here, just not your conclusion. i can't stop thinking about it. why sacrifice aronis? it didn't even frame me because ice outed aronis as the killer. i don't know. the more i think it through the more i want to vote ice and believe that neil's "scumminess" is just his playstyle. math is probably just VI.

vote:iceguy

sorry if you're town, bro. posting your neil case might help allay my fears.

[don_johnson]

that's exactly my point. its confusing the hell out of me. but if scum was aronis/dj, why sacrifice aronis and not dj? it makes little sense in that direction. its what I've been saying. I'd like to hear from ice.

aronis sac'd himself. why? there was no need to. scum could have fruited

and

killed, or just fruited and would have avoided a scum lynch. if this thing was a huge smoke screen, we have to find out who benefited the most. that leads me to ice, the argument being staged to clear ice into endgame. I don't know. I would like a chance to reread, but the votes seem to be piling up and I don't have the time atm.

[don_johnson]

I think my contributions were good. so whatevz.

[don_johnson]

can you at least paraphrase the reasoning for your vote?

[don_johnson]

you're killin me. I thought I'd have another day phase yet. if I'm the lynch then get it over with.

[don_johnson]

I think that its telling DJ came in thread yesterday saying that Aro was totes scum aaaannndndddd then never voted him. Just saying.

how is that significant at all? and where did I say "totes scum"? you obviously aren't reading. I had a couple posts where I laid out my thought process. whatevz. if ice isn't scum then you lynch me tomorrow. then you'll see. if ice flips town I will spend the day tomorrow doing a reread(I think my nk would be unlikely at this point). I will post my analysis and you can lynch me. deal?

[don_johnson]

someone died. unless the scum are paired, whoever didn't give fruit is scum. right?

if aronis flips town

, then we know a)dj is not scum b)ice is not scum(unless aronis accuses him of lying) and c) scum is in a pair. right? I don't know. this is gonna make my head hurt, but let me know if I'm wrong. what are the possibilities here?

I nominate fitz to devise another fruit giving schedule before we pile the votes on. but yeah, we can wifom this all day.

one of aronis/ice is 100% scum

.

Pretty sure this is you saying Aro is scum.

except of course, for the bolded parts. and the rest of my posts. nice cherry picking. seems I'm not the only one with bad habits.

its ice then me, or me then ice. I don't really care. if we lynch ice and the game continues, i'll provide content tomorrow before I'm lynched. I have no fruit left, so if there is a fruit plan, it should be restated or posted to confirm.

[don_johnson]

good luck.

[don_johnson]

ftr, I would have given you a full analysis tomorrow. its always better to keep me as along as possible, but whatevz. you should be able to nail this as long as fitz or bins ain't scum.

[don_johnson]

no one ever confirmed giving me fruit. you may want to make sure xay still has some.

[don_johnson]

hey DJ was right c:

its funny cause its true.