Open 563 - Jungle Republic (Night 5~)

[Paschendale]

@Wicked: As much as you don't like the votes on Bulge based on the claim accusation, you haven't really ever addressed my case on him. He almost exclusively defends himself, doesn't contribute to finding scum, and his vote on Titus did not look like one where the outcome was unknown. That wasn't a compromise vote. That wasn't a vote he genuinely believed in. That was a vote that was cast against a known enemy.

[The Bulge]

@Wicked: As much as you don't like the votes on Bulge based on the claim accusation, you haven't really ever addressed my case on him. He almost exclusively defends himself, doesn't contribute to finding scum, and his vote on Titus did not look like one where the outcome was unknown. That wasn't a compromise vote. That wasn't a vote he genuinely believed in. That was a vote that was cast against a known enemy.

Are you saying everyone else on the Titus wagon wasn't sure of their vote? Sounds like a pretty awful wagon to me.

[Not_Mafia]

I am not getting into an argument about IIoA, even though I don't entirely agree with your comments regarding it. That's a semantics/naming argument, it's completely irrelevant, and I've explained my specific issue. Plus I am mildly insulted: that you would accuse me of using a scum tell I don't understand when I have more experience than you OR you suggest I would deliberately distort a scum tell believing I could get away with it.

Cheap way to dismiss the issue by calling it "semantics"

Wicked's personal opinion of the "fake crumb" is largely meaningless when it's obvious a significant enough portion of the town are going to get hung up on it

That's ridiculous. That is appeal to majority and a terrible thing to resort to. This happens to me all the time- I am town, a bandwagon forms on someone, I townread the guy getting bandwagon'd and try to prevent their lynch, nobody listens to me and I get flak for not having the same invalid perspective, the guy flips town. I have a tendency to read well, once I played in a game where I was opposed to three major bandwagons (they were all town), that was a while ago but in the Shadedscum game I linked to I town read the day 2 lynch and despite countless arguments in his defense nobody freaking listened to me. Don't give me that "oh well everyone else thinks it's a crumb so your opinion doesn't mean anything".

So you've townread major wagons before? So? We all have. Here you've just pretended a case doesn't exist and never bothered to address any of the points against him other then "well I don't think it was a crumb". More of you padding out your posts with complete fluff

and why more people don't seem to be aware of why us extending out a lynch centered on someone crumbing our only PR is bad is beyond me.

If Bulge flips town it removes any future wifom of that crumb and hopefully redirects wolves kill to Fuzzy, but that possibility is dwindling more and more the longer this goes on and more of us figure out who the seer is. This lynch should have gone through 2-3 pages ago.

I DO NOT BELIEVE BULGE CRUMBED. Even if he flips scum I will believe that. That's why I'm trying to prevent the lynch. In general if I see a bandwagon that I don't like I try to prevent it. And I don't care about wifom, I want a scum lynch not a wifom-removal lynch.

Okay? You are not the only person in this game. And you completely sidestepped my point about helping to out the PR.

Why does that look like a bus to you?

-Almost never addressed Shaded despite voting him twice.
-You hardly justified your vote on him despite that being your strongest preference towards the end of the day.
-Very little effort to actually discern his alignment despite voting him twice, as if you already knew.

This point is fair. I had attempts to engage him, not ones he ever really reciprocated, my sitting on the wagon was lazy.

This merits its own post, especially the second paragraph.

Since his anti-town derailing of this lynch and unnecessary extending out of this day with discussion that is helping to make the identity of our only PR more and more obvious.

This is bs, and I am really irritated by your craplogic here. If I'm town (which I am) and I think Bulge is town (which I do), then it is absurd of you to say that my derailing is anti-town - you just can't fathom the concept of someone opposing your precious Bulge bandwagon, any opposition is scum in your eyes. The extending is perfectly necessary if I'm town trying to protect a town read (which I am).

You are completely misrepresenting what I'm saying here, never have I said "lol disagrees scum"

And you cannot be serious about the PR comment. Wasn't Unsight the one that said in the first place, "Bulge might be crumbing seer here" - you are so convinced that my case against him was bad and blame me for discussion that can out the pr yet you follow the bandwagon that is based on Unsight's initial unjustified rolefishing. And last I checked, you were the one that asked Bulge to claim. I personally have no more of an idea who seer is than I did three days ago so your assertion is baseless. Then again, I don't look over the thread for pr crumbs so I honestly don't care about the risk as it is.

Yes I'm serious, I don't believe Unsight was rolefishing and I'm not responding to rest of your post for obvious reasons, you can call me scum for this if you want but we both know what you're doing

I think you are trying to rush a mislynch, appealing to the belief that it'll save the seer when the seer is in no apparent danger AND the lynch is much more valuable.

TL;DR - Not_Mafia gives me flak for trying to extend discussion that could potentially out the seer. But note that Unsight is the one that initially mentioned that Bulge could have crumbed seer and Not_Mafia is the one that asked Bulge to claim - they aren't interested in seer preservation.

There is no risk of outing the seer by my wagon derailing effort.

I figured out who the seer was from your counter wagoning, so yes there is and was a risk

[Not_Mafia]

I just don't like how Wicked keeps saying TheBulge is completely clear

I never said Bulge was completely clear. Please get your facts straight. I am

pretty sure

that he is town, regardless of his alignment I think the single point against him is entirely invalid.

Riddleton you are too easily influenced. You first posted after my Unsight case and said that I'd convinced you. Then Unsight and Not_Mafia comment and suddenly you think only one of my five points is good, it now seems that you've abandoned my case.

Unsight and Not_Mafia cannot be trusted. Consider this order;
-Day 1 and 2 occur with Unsight and Not_Mafia paying little to no attention to me.
-I call Unsight and Not_Mafia scum in my Unsight-case post.
-Unsight and Not_Mafia suddenly suspect me.
I can't see how you'd trust them after all that. Obviously they'll both dislike my post and obviously they'll both have counter arguments because they don't want to be called scum, nobody does.

What was the point of this? Discredit a player and then say "Not_Mafia and Unsight are OMGUSing, it doesn't matter that they have valid points it's OMGUS"

[Not_Mafia]

Now that I'm on my laptop...

I'll start by clarifying something you are all obviously too tunnel-minded to understand:

I never fucking claimed Seer.

The way Wicked explained it is correct. It was a god damn wording issue. If that is the basis of the case against me (hint: it is), then either scum is getting way too stubbornly opportunistic or this town is incompetent. I think the former is more likely.

Continuing to ignore that the case on you goes beyond that, if you're on your laptop you saw Pasch's post

The thing that doesn't sit well with me is Post 319. When he was nearing lynch, he said he could

guarantee

he was town. snscompt1 immediately took his vote elsewhere. snscompt1 could have been jumping off his buddy's wagon or he may have read that post the same way I just did--soft Town Seer claim. The problem with this? The Bulge is still alive. Night kill analysis is WIFOM and usually not worth the time it takes to type, but I think the wolves would have to be asleep at the wheel to not take that bait. Unless he's one of them.

Why would you point this out? Regardless of how obvious you found it, do you really think it's so unlikely the wolves didn't catch on to it that was worth potentially outing the seer?

Regardless Bulge needs to claim

What the fuck is this shit and why did nobody pick up on it? First of all, I don't buy the "I caught the soft-claim but didn't want to point it out to scum" bullshit. Second of all, what you say later completely contradicts yourself.

"How dare you draw attention to our soft-claimed seer! Shame on you! ... By the way, potential seer, you should definitely claim now, yea."

I'll let Unsight respond but that case isn't as impressive as it seems to look to others and is largely window dressing, and Wicked's personal opinion of the "fake crumb" is largely meaningless when

it's obvious a significant enough portion of the town are going to get hung up on it

and why more people don't seem to be aware of why us extending out a lynch centered on someone crumbing our only PR is bad is beyond me.

If Bulge flips town it removes any future wifom of that crumb and hopefully redirects wolves kill to Fuzzy, but that possibility is dwindling more and more the longer this goes on and more of us figure out who the seer is. This lynch should have gone through 2-3 pages ago.

I find it absolutely hilarious that you think my wagon is town-driven, or at its least "a significant portion of the town".

What is the contradiction? The situations are completely different.

So vote him. You summed this whole thing up yourself here

everyone keeps assuming he's destined to flip WW

I addressed this before but I want to stress again how shitty this post is. Not to mention how shitty the wagon is. I will be legitimately surprised if there is any more than one townie on my wagon.

Can we make a Not_Mafia wagon happen? I'd also be down to lynch Unsight or Desp. Maybe Riddleton based on recent bullshit. I'll give him a read next.

PEDIT: Aw no N_M wagon Promise me it will happen tomorrow.

So basically you want to lynch anyone on your wagon. Because it's scum driven because what? You refuse to address the case on you?

[Not_Mafia]

Just read this;

Bulge will be lynch fodder and a sticking point for every day he's still here, and

we could have assumed a

mafia

kill like 4 pages ago

, instead we're splitting wagons multiple times for no apparent reason.

Are you a werewolf? Because I thought we were lynching werewolves today.

Yes kill, not lynch, pushing this as a slip is ridiculous.

[Not_Mafia]

I'm up for lynching Not_Mafia if two other people are (besides you and I), that's the only scenario where it'd be worth it for me to switch.

Not_Mafia wants to lynch you for a crumb that isn't even a crumb because he's afraid that we'll out the seer. Even though Unsight brought up the crumb and Not_Mafia asked you to claim. Meanwhile Not_Mafia

wants to lynch mafia it seems

. And I am getting flak for not following the popular opinion.

Yeah I never said this, I clearly said and kill as in NK and one look at the wagon I'm on would have told you this so I don't believe this was a genuine mistake

[Not_Mafia]

@Wicked: As much as you don't like the votes on Bulge based on the claim accusation, you haven't really ever addressed my case on him. He almost exclusively defends himself, doesn't contribute to finding scum, and his vote on Titus did not look like one where the outcome was unknown. That wasn't a compromise vote. That wasn't a vote he genuinely believed in. That was a vote that was cast against a known enemy.

Are you saying everyone else on the Titus wagon wasn't sure of their vote? Sounds like a pretty awful wagon to me.

You spend all this time screaming about their being no case and then this is your response?

[Not_Mafia]

I'm saying it's a shit lynch because there's no good argument for it that I can see and everyone's still acting like Bulge is conf scum. Lynch Bulge, NM, go ahead, I'm not attempting to defend against the wagon, I just don't want to be a part of it.

And I don't see Desp scum for reasons that he voted Splash vs Shaded. I don't think he'd just not bus his partner in that situation.

His votes were for poor and unfounded reasons. His contributions have not helped find scum at all and his day 1 play, especially his vote, looked like trying to fly under the radar. The last two votes on day 1, that being his and yours, both looked like this. They had all the trappings of votes cast by people who know exactly the outcome that a lynch will have (or at very least, know that it won't be their team). I can see why you're defending Bulge, since everything that implicates him also implicates you, but his general play has been worse, so he's on the block today instead of you.

Are you his teammate or are you just defending yourself by proxy?

@Wicked: As much as you don't like the votes on Bulge based on the claim accusation, you haven't really ever addressed my case on him. He almost exclusively defends himself, doesn't contribute to finding scum, and his vote on Titus did not look like one where the outcome was unknown. That wasn't a compromise vote. That wasn't a vote he genuinely believed in. That was a vote that was cast against a known enemy.

Bulge is responding to these in full, no excuses. Wicked as well if his V/LA permits but I'm not going to push it for obvious reasons.

[Paschendale]

Are you saying everyone else on the Titus wagon wasn't sure of their vote? Sounds like a pretty awful wagon to me.

Town players are never sure of their votes. Not without cop results or the like. Town players always know that they could be wrong.

Bulge is responding to these in full, no excuses. Wicked as well if his V/LA permits but I'm not going to push it for obvious reasons.

You may notice that neither of those posts are addressed to Bulge, but no, he really hasn't addressed any of it. He's just expressed ignorance of why the rest of us think he's a werewolf. He makes quips to avoid my conclusions about his vote on Titus. Almost everything he's saying is about the seer claim, not about why his day 1 activities didn't consist of any real scumhunting or why he voted Titus at all. Seriously, read his ISO. Find me one post that is useful in determining anyone's alignment. Find me one post where he suspects Titus' slot at all. Bulge isn't responding to anything except to say "nuh uh!" Why do you find that compelling?

[Riddleton]

Riddleton you are too easily influenced. You first posted after my Unsight case and said that I'd convinced you. Then Unsight and Not_Mafia comment and suddenly you think only one of my five points is good, it now seems that you've abandoned my case.

-I first said "You convinced me

at first

, but I'll rereadf his posts/ISO myself before I revote"
-I look through his postys and establish that I don't think some of your points are valid
-Therefore I'm too easily influenced..?

[Desperado]

I can't emphasize enough how dead Bulge should be and how bad this counterwagon on me is.

[Riddleton]

Town players are never sure of their votes. Not without cop results or the like. Town players always know that they could be wrong.

I like this post. Seems pro-town

[Riddleton]

I agree with NM in #704. There's more to the Bulge case than the softclaim

[Riddleton]

@NM's #702: Wicked's IIOA is correct but misguided. In the strictest sense it'd count but in reality it's obvious what Unsight is implying with the Wicked case. I consider it a null tell.

[Riddleton]

^ I think that's a bit strange how he'd say that's a scumtell though.

[Not_Mafia]

Exactly, which is why his 'cases' are hollow and just throwing out misreps and buzzwords and seeing what sticks

Also

@mod Requesting VC

[Mist7676]

Vote Count:

The Bulge

(4) - Not_Mafia, Riddleton, Paschendale, Unsight

Desperado

(3) - The Bulge, Bins, Wickedestjr

Unsight

(1) - fuzzybutternut

(expired on 2014-08-16 05:25:27)

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch

[Wickedestjr]

@Wicked: As much as you don't like the votes on Bulge based on the claim accusation, you haven't really ever addressed my case on him.

That's true and I apologize for missing it.

1... He almost exclusively defends himself, 2... doesn't contribute to finding scum, and 3... his vote on Titus did not look like one where the outcome was unknown. That wasn't a compromise vote. That wasn't a vote he genuinely believed in. That was a vote that was cast against a known enemy.

1. Can you please explain this or give a post number where you already did?
2. I disagree. I've seen scum hunting. He's not the worst offender of this, I can think of at least two players that have done less.
3. This doesn't make any sense to me. Last two sentences contradict. Mafia is not only an enemy to wolves.

[Unsight]

I figured out who the seer was from your counter wagoning, so yes there is and was a risk

This is why we should have lynched Bulge 4 pages ago.

[Wickedestjr]

I am not getting into an argument about IIoA, even though I don't entirely agree with your comments regarding it. That's a semantics/naming argument, it's completely irrelevant, and I've explained my specific issue. Plus I am mildly insulted: that you would accuse me of using a scum tell I don't understand when I have more experience than you OR you suggest I would deliberately distort a scum tell believing I could get away with it.

Cheap way to dismiss the issue by calling it "semantics"

Wrong. 1. That wasn't my full response, you cut out the non semantics part. 2. Unsight's defense against my IIoA was solely a semantics argument, HE ignored the specific point I made, instead criticizing the title I attached to the point.

So you've townread major wagons before? So? We all have. Here you've just pretended a case doesn't exist and never bothered to address any of the points against him other then "well I don't think it was a crumb". More of you padding out your posts with complete fluff

Prior to post 700 I don't think there was a case.

Okay? You are not the only person in this game. And you completely sidestepped my point about helping to out the PR.

I don't understand your point, then.

This merits its own post, especially the second paragraph.

Since his anti-town derailing of this lynch and unnecessary extending out of this day with discussion that is helping to make the identity of our only PR more and more obvious.

This is bs, and I am really irritated by your craplogic here. If I'm town (which I am) and I think Bulge is town (which I do), then it is absurd of you to say that my derailing is anti-town - you just can't fathom the concept of someone opposing your precious Bulge bandwagon, any opposition is scum in your eyes. The extending is perfectly necessary if I'm town trying to protect a town read (which I am).

You are completely misrepresenting what I'm saying here, never have I said "lol disagrees scum"

If I am town that believes Bulge is a mislynch, then what's anti town about my defense? Because mislynches are anti town...

I figured out who the seer was from your counter wagoning, so yes there is and was a risk

1. I don't believe you - still think your seer preservation is disingenuous.
2. If you really cared about keeping the seer alive, then you wouldn't have made this comment. That was a bad comment to make if true, two things very wrong about it.
3. There was nothing revealing about my counter wagoning.

[Wickedestjr]

What was the point of this? Discredit a player and then say "Not_Mafia and Unsight are OMGUSing, it doesn't matter that they have valid points it's OMGUS"

I wasn't trying to discredit Riddleton. I just want Riddleton to think for himself. I townread him and don't like to see my scum reads affecting his opinions.

I mentioned the 'order' because it felt convenient and yeah even a little omgusy.

[Wickedestjr]

Just read this;

Bulge will be lynch fodder and a sticking point for every day he's still here, and

we could have assumed a

mafia

kill like 4 pages ago

, instead we're splitting wagons multiple times for no apparent reason.

Are you a werewolf? Because I thought we were lynching werewolves today.

Yes kill, not lynch, pushing this as a slip is ridiculous.

I apologize. Didn't realize you were talking about fuzzy.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm up for lynching Not_Mafia if two other people are (besides you and I), that's the only scenario where it'd be worth it for me to switch.

Not_Mafia wants to lynch you for a crumb that isn't even a crumb because he's afraid that we'll out the seer. Even though Unsight brought up the crumb and Not_Mafia asked you to claim. Meanwhile Not_Mafia

wants to lynch mafia it seems

. And I am getting flak for not following the popular opinion.

Yeah I never said this, I clearly said and kill as in NK and one look at the wagon I'm on would have told you this so I don't believe this was a genuine mistake

Lynching is a kill method. Thought you were talking about how we could have secured the Bulge lynch four pages ago because you had also said that before. Not sure I realized you expected fuzzy to get night killed, that kill was not secured from my perspective.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP718- Paschendale, I don't think it's suspicious that Bulge never expressed suspicion of Titus. Rereading his Titus vote, it looked like a NL prevention vote - I was perfectly fine with it.