Mini 1602: Game Over

[implosion]

God. Dammit. I was going to vote Tammy as soon as the day opened for not being townread yet, with some witty line like "it's been 4 minutes and tammy isn't obvtown, vote tammy" but now I can't do that because she is.

Flames isn't scummy though.

VOTE: Elias

[implosion]

And by that, I mean

VOTE: AGar

[implosion]

Flames isn't scummy though.

We have a sympathizer.

I never said Flames was scummy though. I said he had too many numbers and was being dumb.

And I never claimed to direct that line at you, it was a general observation in light of his being wagoned.

[implosion]

My changing my vote has nothing to do with Flames not being scummy.

[implosion]

Malakittens just lied .

[implosion]

Actually,
VOTE: Tammy
That condescension in post 16 feels like scum trying to brush off the srs vote from flames.

I don't know if your being serious, but flames's vote wasn't serious.

Nope. Flames said it was serious. Ipso facto, it was serious.

[implosion]

VOTE: Rack
Serious vote.

[implosion]

phok gets a very mild scumread.

@tman: post 37 is awkward. Lots of unwarranted ellipses, throw in a "so confused" at the end, and that's more than enough for a vote from me on page two. If desired I can explain in more depth why those are enough to warrant a vote from me on page two.

[implosion]

hey, hey rack
this is Tammy's town meta from my experience
if you want confirmation, you can do a site search ^_^

[implosion]

Anywho, the more in-depth explanation (note that this will inevitably sound like reaching, because it is): the post (37) sounds overdramatic, i.e. it sounds like it's trying to make active attempts to look a certain way. This is particularly notable since rack's posting style overall seems fairly concise. The "but... but......" and "so confused" both contribute nothing to the actual content of the post, while contributing to the tone.

[implosion]

I've noticed Tammy has been making lots of references to how she's town.

Never fear Town Tammy is here!

Now we just have to see if the mod will count votes cast on town.

*checks role pm*

Nope! My claim in my first post was indeed corect.

It's been in a joking manner, but seems like she's emphasizing her towniness to much. Does anyone know if this is normal for her?

Yep.

From the opening post of the last game I played with Tammy (she was town):

Did anyone hear that sigh of relief earlier this afternoon? Yeah, that was me when I saw I was town. Empire's a terrible troll.

[implosion]

"Oh, what's that? rack and implosion are saying conflicting things and citing the same source of evidence, but implosion is providing specific evidence while rack is saying to go look for it yourself?

Gee, implosion, that sure is crazy! I'd better vote rack with you."

[implosion]

Part of me wants to unvote, but eh, i'll keep it here for now.

I like the above post by agar. In particular the asking Elias to say something readable; I had a thought earlier along similar lines. It's a good observation and the kind I'd expect to be more likely from town, I guess.

[implosion]

rack claiming it's a reaction test is really funny because it reminds me of a thing from the game I linked to with tammy that I heavily scumread someone for (they were eventually lynched d1 and flipped scum). Basically in that case the scumread was a matter of me saying "I don't think you could genuinely have said these things with the explicit intent to reaction test." rack's opening I can sort of buy, but not easily.

I guess we'll say this. rack: do you frequently do explicit reaction tests like this (i.e., telling explicit lies to gauge reactions)?

A part of me says that rack is scum, and the above question is obfuscated by the fact that rack is an alt, and rack is taking advantage of that to write off the tammy stuff. But then it also seems odd that scum would lie about thinking Tammy had scummy meta. eh. Idk, thinking about it there really isn't much room for that reaction test to have been entirely fake. If rack is scum and wasn't actually reaction testing, but was actually trying to paint Tammy as scum and then switch direction when it wasn't working, I don't see a good reason for rack to have claimed that Tammy had meta that made her scummy when rack didn't actually have any meta like that. Which makes me think the reaction test is real. Which makes me think this is a meh vote.

Unvote

VOTE: Malakittens

[implosion]

*twiddles thumbs*

[implosion]

Some votes are labeled as reaction tests. There's a certain category of votes, and votes within that category can be glorified into reaction tests. That is the category of vote to which my vote on Malakittens belongs. Or in plain english, I don't actually have any particular reason.

I've also been lurking like 80-90% because of sheer laziness.

Agar and Tammy are town. I think rack is town.

Flames, on iso, is a good candidate for scum, so I'm willing to support Agar in his venture for justice. Riabi is also an excellent candidate, as 184 (as others have pointed out) was the bad kind of waffling, i.e. it looks like scum wanting not to commit.

Some more reads are coming in a short bit, probably a couple minutes~

Unvote

VOTE: Flames

[implosion]

Aninenen's probably town. phok's weakly town (mostly gut).

Elias makes me twinge a little. The way he's fossed rack feels a little manufactured. Not very strong here, but eh.

Can't say much about shadow or chaoslord.

tman, upon isoing:

Actually,
VOTE: Tammy
That condescension in post 16 feels like scum trying to brush off the srs vote from flames.

I don't know if your being serious, but flames's vote wasn't serious.

Nope. Flames said it was serious. Ipso facto, it was serious.

Did you actually think it was serious, or were you being sarcastic here.

Sarcastic. But tman also is probably town.

[implosion]

So since everyone in this game seems oh so fond of listing all of their reads in one post I'll join the party

Tammy
AGar
~
rack
phokdapolees
tman2nd
Aneninen
~
Malakittens
shaddowez
chaoslord54
~
Elias_the_thief
Flames682
Riabi

Town -> scum, with very weak ordering within each tier (except for Tammy being fairly above AGar). Highly subject to change of course.

[implosion]

Implosion I think your reaction test was bullshit. Because of the few games you have with me or saw of me do you really think a reaction test would work on me? Like I think you had a better chance at selling meta differences than selling that was all a reaction test on me.
I mean I really don't buy it and let me tell you I buy a lot of things.

It wasn't a reaction test.

[implosion]

Can anyone explain why implosion is town?

My role pm told me i was

[implosion]

I'm currently not a fan of implosion's play style right now, but I'm trying to figure out if it's scummy or just him seeming like an ass to me.

I can tone down the sass a bit if you'd like.

What do you mean by "vote labels" in 208? And why do you claim that I fos rack when I was simply adding more reasoning to an existing vote (which already had decent reasoning)? What specifically is bad about my attack on Rack?

To try to put it in less idiosyncratic english, basically sometimes people will make random votes for relatively little or no reason and then justify them as reaction tests. Mine is such a vote, except I'm not trying to justify it as a reaction test, the reason I voted Mala was because I was in the mood to vote Mala. It was a whim.

I claim that you fos rack because you voted him and later said he was probably scum in 148 :\. I use fos as a synonym for suspect.

As for why I don't like the attack, it's the way you're pushing the reaction test as him not having gotten enough out of it. It strikes me as an odd thing to push. Kind of a gut thing.

[implosion]

implosion is scum (his reads list in 210 has scumreads of pretty much every easy mislynch)

????

I gave scumreads on riabi and flames (arguably "easy lynches") and elias (i'd like to see you argue that as an easy lynch). I townread rack, the main wagon. I'd argue he's the "easiest lynch" given not only that he was the biggest wagon but that I started that wagon. I guess that's more moot if you think I'm scum with rack but still. The "easy lynch" argument is stupid in general. People are thought of as "easy lynches" because they are doing things that scum stereotypically do... i.e. because they are scummy.

[implosion]

*patiently waits for flames to hopefully say things*

[implosion]

Tammy bussing a wagon already in RVS in her second post reads opportunstic to me, and then the "declaring I'm town" without any real reason or support is ridiculous... but it is RVS. It's a good scum opening in my opinion.

I'm glad you have opinions! It's good. But unfortunately Tammy always does that as town.

(granted I've never seen Tammy's scumplay, but this game is pretty much her townplay to a T)

Implosion: I'm not sure where Mala lied?

Mala lied when she said she hadn't been voted yet.

Implosion feels like he's reaching a lot here, stretching to make Rack look worse than the null points that were actually there. While I agree (as Tman pointed out after) that Rack needs to cite his sources, I don't think starting a wagon on him is a good way to make someone act townie...

Yes. I was reaching. As a matter of fact

I explicitly said I was reaching

in post 70. I also think starting a wagon on someone is a wonderful way to make them act townie if they are town! It lets you see how they react, it lets you see how others react to the prospect of a wagon, it puts them under pressure to give reads/do stuff, and it puts a scumread closer to a lynch.

[implosion]

Anywho. I'd like to call attention to this line from neil:

And honestly, depending on my finished conclusion after my read through, if that's what he did, I'm going to call for a mod kill. That's against our town win-condition, and in the end, it fucks the town really badly considering our role.

This line makes me want to punch my wall in. It also is the reason I'm not going to unvote neil.

This is the kind of post that feels like treading the line towards gamebreaking. Claiming that you might call for a modkill on your own slot because your predecessor played against the town win condition? Really. That's just really bad mannered. I find it extremely difficult to believe it was said in complete honesty.

Why is it hard to believe? Well, Flames was playing badly does not equate to flames was playing against his win condition, and for neil to claim that he thinks this might be the case is hard to believe (although if it's based on past example I'd like to see that). Why is it bad mannered? It's presumptuous: he's making this claim that we can't even address without first presuming that neil is town (that Flames was playing against the town win condition). He's claiming that he will potentially call for a modkill on his own slot because his slot is town. That's just extremely annoying. Annoying to comprehend, annoying to read, and annoying to have in the gamestate. This is further compounded by the softclaim, which turns it somewhat passive-aggressive.

[implosion]

Although honestly my desire to not unvote is kind of more out of some kind of rage than it is out of thinking his slot is scum. I really hate that post. Bleh.

Unvote

[implosion]

I also just hate softclaiming in general. It also seems to happen from scum more often than town in that manner.

[implosion]

No, i more unvoted because he basically said "hey i'm a power role." I'm somewhat waiting for him to say which one. And somewhat just kind of staring at things and saying "blah."

[implosion]

Agar, what do you make of the lines I quoted in 317?

[implosion]

And wonderful. The very first thing I find when I look at neil's meta leads me to believe he has a history of fakeclaiming as town.

VOTE: neil

Claim pls. You've already softclaimed, fullclaim.

[implosion]

If I do get lynched, these are the people that definitely need to be looked at.

"You should look at the people on my wagon when I'm lynched! Oh, but I'm not going to mention which of the six of them I'm referring to with this line, nor am I going to refute any of their points, nor am I going to directly respond to the two people (Tammy and implosion) who have posted the most towards me since I replaced in!"

Nope.

Sorry, bud, doesn't work that way. You don't get to turn yourself into some martyr that's dying because of Flames or who's "getting lynched for the wrong reasons even if they are scum" without refuting any of the reasons.

Every single person

on your wagon has posted since Flames replaced out. No one is voting you just because of Flames, so suck it up and defend *yourself* or just accept the lynch and don't whine about it.

[implosion]

Like. This entire paragraph.

It comes down to only two options for my frustration. Either I'm town, frustrated because of the reasons I said, or you could easily claim I'm scum caught for the wrong reasons. Either or is acceptable logic. The pushes that have been on me, is what irritate me. They aren't acceptable logic to lynch a townie, ever. It's bad town play, period. If I do get lynched, these are the people that definitely need to be looked at.

Everyone. Just read this lone paragraph.

It's such sophistry. It's literally pure rhetoric. "The pushes on me are bad." No logic as to why they're bad. Or whose push on him is bad (out of the six people voting him, dare I add). "They aren't acceptable logic to lynch a townie, ever." Without any mention of more than half of the logic in question. "bad town play." Insulting everyone on the wagon (or, I suppose, every townie on the wagon) without any logic backing up what he's saying.


I wish I wasn't voting neil so I could threaten a hammer.

[implosion]

I really don't have much to say until neil answers the stuff that's been posed.

[implosion]

Last time I saw a d1 cop claim, I (and the town) waffled for a few days, then lynched them and they flipped scum.

In my opinion, the cop claim makes neil more likely to be scum for similar reasons to back then: cop is a role that, I think in the eyes of scum, has a perception of being a believable claim, but isn't actually common in the mini normal meta. Last time this happened, there was one actual cop in the last ten completed mini normals (and it was in a game that was modded by the half of the hydra who claimed cop). A cursory look suggests the meta may have changed (it was in 2 of the last 5). So eh. Idk. I guess this point doesn't hold much merit itg. I also have less intuition of mod meta than I did in that game. Tammy was also in that game (it's the game I linked when displaying her town meta).

Anyway, back to actual points (and Oso's question). I'm at least less convinced than I was in that other game. But does it make sense for a cop to softclaim? Hell no. Cops are often in games where scum has some way to deal with the cop. For instance a roleblocker, and a softclaimed target is perfect to roleblock. Idk, at least it's stupid, even if it is something that they could do.

Unvote

For now while I think about this a bit.

[implosion]

I have an idea.

@Everyone: if you are counterclaiming Neil, DO IT in your very next post!

If there is no counterclaim, we should assume that Neil's claim is real and disband his wagon. (After all, if his claim is fake we'll find that out soon.) If you've posted anything without counterclaiming start posting your other scumreads as soon as you can.

UNVOTE: – I'm willing to revote him if anyone counterclaims but now I'm scared of a derphammer on Neil.

also no. this is wrong. 1, if neil is scum, this is exactly what he wants, 2, a counterclaim doesn't actually mean a damn thing.

[implosion]

Oso, what do you think of neil?

[implosion]

So I just wrote out a big stupid conditional probability thing and then realized I have no idea how often scum would claim cop in this situation.

Meh.

[implosion]

Incidentally, Malakittens is in fact town.

[implosion]

Yeah honestly at this point my main motivation in wanting to lynch neil is wanting to see what his alignment is.

Although I think he's certainly a very strong candidate for scum. Let's go ahead and do this.

VOTE: neil

That's L-1 (I say this for Malakittens' benefit). At this point I don't really care what else neil has to say. People keep convincing me he's scum. The weirdest thing about the neil wagon is the sheer fact that I don't hear any loud voices against it. Which means if he's scum, then other scum are keeping quiet/on the sidelines or are bussing pretty strongly. But that's perfectly reasonable.

[implosion]

Well, that kill makes me think scum is on the wagon.

:s

this does not seem like a thing to me that can have any basis in good logic whatsoever. Granted that doesn't mean the conclusion is false.

[implosion]

chaos's jump on to the wagon feels somewhat meh, but I thought his most recent post felt town.

I want to explore this a bit.

VOTE: Elias

[implosion]

Actually I lied. Mala if you want to look for scum on the wagon, let's look here first...

Unvote

VOTE: shaddowez

Reasoning coming after I take a shower.

[implosion]

i didn't say immediately after i took a shower. I also kind of expected there to be more posts and didn't really feel like quadrupleposting especially when only one other person had posted so far.

Anyway, here's a giant quote wall looking at shaddowez's interactions towards Flames/neil:

Spoiler:

I don't like the fact that Flames had such a large wagon so quick in RVS. I know D1 gives a lot of time for messing around, but I would not be surprised at all if there was at least one scum on that wagon already.

This can be looked at as possibly defending-without-really-defending, or trying to deter anything that looks like an accusation of Flames without really looking like deterring it.

Flames

- you have any other reads? I'm not a fan of your sudden near-180 immediately after I post about what looks like buddying/White Knighting.

This looks like possible coaching. It reads like scum telling scum "hey, you're being scummy, stop that."

I believe I am comfortable putting Flames at L-1 though. He has provided very little content, is using weak arguments as his cases and/or is voting with the current wagon (obviously not himself, I mean Rack. Seeing as I don't have any other strong supicions right now,

VOTE: Flames

Lots of qualification on the vote: he's only voting him because he doesn't have any strong suspicions, so it's easy to get out, but he still wants to be on the wagon. The vote looks like scum begrudgingly deciding to bus when they realize Flames is probably going down rather than town looking for scum. "Seeing as I don't have any other strong suspicions right now" also doesn't mesh very well with voting him to L-1, but those make plenty of sense together if it's a bus.

UNVOTE:
Shadow, how is this situation at all different than the wagon on Rack?

Mainly, post count. The wagon on Rack started day 1 with an RVS vote, and grew in just a few days. In that timeframe, and the time since the Flame wagon started, everyone has been posting, and there's been more content to scrutinize.
What does concern me about the new wagon is the fact that pretty much all the votes (including mine) are from people that just hopped from one wagon to the other.

So he's concerned about the wagon, and about the people on it, yet is still happy with putting it at L-1. There's also the classic thing here of throwing a general accusation at a bandwagon rather than any individual people on it - if it's concerning that all of these votes are from wagonhoppers, then town-shaddowez should elaborate on what people are scummy because of it, and why those people are less deserving of a vote than Flames. He's also continuing to give himself an out with respect to the wagon.

I'm still waiting to hear more from Neil before putting my vote back on him. He showed up, got mad, then disappeared again which isn't looking too good.

Note that he unvoted because of the replacement. Here he gives more tentative support for lynching the slot without really committing.

I really wanted to hear more from Neil before voting, but I'm not liking his disappearing act. I realize that he hasn't been onsite posting anywhere else, but he's also just over 12 hours away from a prod. I don't like the couple of posts that he's made, and while I wouldn't outright pin them as scummy, they do absolutely nothing to up my read from the slot.

VOTE: Neil

That's L-1. I will unvote if Neil starts posting again and I get around to it before somebody hammers.

This also looks like it could be scum trying to get on the wagon before it reaches the lynch because they see it as inevitable.

I don't like the claim. I've gone through Flames' ISO and saw no crumbs whatsoever...he knew he was in deep, and while it was RVS he did manage to pick up 4 votes in no time. If he had a PR, one would think that would be a good time to start crumbing. It also reads as a stall tactic - he started posting info, disappeared until what should have been after a prod, claims and says he has to disappear again.

I would say the saying he ISO'd flames is a favor in point of shaddowez town, but meh. Similar comments apply to this as to everything else.

tl;dr: shaddowez's interactions towards the Flames slot, on the whole, feel like scum who doesn't want to push the slot, but wants to get towncred for being on the wagon.

[implosion]

The underlined bold part, that sounds, not really forced, but not really honest either or really valid. Hard to explain. I'll revisit Shadowez tomorrow and see if I can agree with what you posted.

Yeah. I mentioned it in the miniwall. It's definitely the biggest thing that gives me pause on shadow. The main reason I'm trying not to let it give me too much pause is that it's a kind of statement that I think I often wind up getting false townreads from - singular statements that make me think "scum-x wouldn't say this."

Also let it be known that I am in no way super confident on shadow-scum.

[implosion]

Also worth mentioning, I go back to college tomorrow. This will likely mean a drop in my activity.

[implosion]

Alright. Well.

Last time AGar had a scumread that I found myself agreeing with, we lynched scum. Riabi was a lingering scumread. And those are some good points from AGar. The possibility of Tammy having been killed for coptelling and that being Oso leaving a trail is a little bit tantalizing.

Unvote

VOTE: Oso

(If a shadow wagon were to materialize I would be in, but this seems like a more useful place to vote)

[implosion]

AGar, Malakittens, Aneninen, phokdapolees, rack, myself. This is the group that I don't have much interest in looking into today. I have no interest whatsoever in looking at AGar or Malakittens. Then comes rack, then Anen and phok.

Oso, chaoslord54, shaddowez, tman2nd, Elias_the_thief. At this point, I want to say 2/5 scum.

This post will probably serve mostly as a reminder to the me of a few days from now in the event that I get caught up in real world shenanigans and forget where I was.

[implosion]

Will

what

after work?

God, rack. You're just such a beacon of usefulness.

[implosion]

I'm considering voting rack to get him to do something if his next post is anything like his last four.

[implosion]

I remember thinking I had a good reason to townread phok. I'll look more at shit later. This is mostly a prod dodge.

[implosion]

This is also a prod dodge but I'll try to say something today.

[implosion]

@SK

, you forgot to replace Oso with BPC in the votecount.

Anywho, I'm going to do this just because I feel like it/because Oso was replaced, so why not.

Unvote

VOTE: shaddowez

I'm completely behind on this game and there's no chance in hell that I'm ever going to be in the mood to catch up so if there's anything super interesting to point out to me please do so.

[implosion]

@SK

, you forgot to replace Oso with BPC in the votecount.

Anywho, I'm going to do this just because I feel like it/because Oso was replaced, so why not.

Unvote

VOTE: shaddowez

I'm completely behind on this game and there's no chance in hell that I'm ever going to be in the mood to catch up so if there's anything super interesting to point out to me please do so.

Are you serious? There are only 4 pages for you to read. That's not a lot.

Yeah, I didn't say it's a matter of amount, it's a matter of mood, i.e. I'm lazy right now.

[implosion]

I thought I posted in this game yesterday. Alas.

@BPC who asked about the unvote: I don't really have that good of a reason, I mean I could pressure you with a vote but 1) if I'm going for pressure I'd rather apply it on someone who will feel it which isn't as true immediately upon replacing in, and 2) I haven't really been active enough in this game to benefit from the result of pressure voting.

@the people who said I should do more: you're right. I suppose I can actually give a comment on shadow's post on this page:

None of this is solid evidence, but it's what's pointing me in the direction of believe tman could have been responsible for Tammy's death.

This is phrased so, so sketchily. He doesn't even explicitly say that tman is scum. It feels noncommittal in a scum way.

[implosion]

I was at 2 votes when I replaced in. One more would feel hella pressuring, so I think that your vote was fairly important if you wanted me to be run up a bit to see how I would have reacted. This also requires almost no work on your part

Well, i mean, it would have been just keeping my vote where it was, so it would have required zero effort. I guess my reason to jump to shaddowez was literally just a whim. At this point I think I prefer that vote. I don't think pressure is the best tool on someone who's replacing in either (though don't quote me on that). A person replacing in is probably going to be giving plenty of readable content anyway.

[implosion]

Hooray, motivation to post.

D1 was full of almost entirely fluff. The biggest town read I have from implosion on D1 is his interaction with Neil. There was already enough pressure on Neil that this seems to pull a lot of attention for what would be a bus. That being said, his voting pattern with regards to the wagon leaves much to be desired. He votes for Flames in Post #208, then rages against Neil and unvotes in Post #318, saying "Although honestly my desire to not unvote is kind of more out of some kind of rage than it is out of thinking his slot is scum". Jumps on again in Post #333, off again in Post #398, and on again in 443, where he also says this:

People keep convincing me he's scum. The weirdest thing about the neil wagon is the sheer fact that I don't hear any loud voices against it. Which means if he's scum, then other scum are keeping quiet/on the sidelines or are bussing pretty strongly. But that's perfectly reasonable.

At the beginning of D2 he builds a case against me, strongly revolving around my vote interaction on the Flames wagon. The

only

vote change I did was due to the replace, which is something I do anytime I have a vote on a slot that replaces (note that I did it for chaos later, and I can point to another game where I've done so if people would like). Hypocrisy much?

He then unvotes me 7 posts later, and then:

@SK

, you forgot to replace Oso with BPC in the votecount.

Anywho, I'm going to do this just because I feel like it/because Oso was replaced, so why not.

Unvote

VOTE: shaddowez

I'm completely behind on this game and there's no chance in hell that I'm ever going to be in the mood to catch up so if there's anything super interesting to point out to me please do so.

I'm going to keep my DV vote for now, but would have absolutely no problem hopping on an implosion wagon.

This is a really disgusting strawman of my case on shadow. I never try to argue that his unvoting Flames due to him being replaced is what makes shadow scummy; I merely mentioned it offhandedly as it was necessary for proper chronology. Accusing me of hypocrisy is patently absurd for two main reasons. One, I didn't accuse shadow of being scum for unvoting at the replacement. Two, I did accuse shadow of doing scummy things in the way that shadow voted, unvoted, and interacted with the wagon, and those are things that I did not myself do. Ergo, calling my case hypocrisy is just pure BS.

It's great that shadow can recount all of the times I voted and unvoted that slot; unfortunately, shadow makes absolutely no attempt to explain why my pattern of voting and unvoting is in any way scummy.

There's also the accusation that most of my d1 was fluff without any justification of most of my d1 being fluff (read: it really wasn't), and without any explanation of why that would be scummy (read: fluffposting isn't scummy).

[implosion]

Or the people who are saying "or we could lynch my preferred lynch" could join the current largest wagon.

*cough*

[implosion]

zzzx isn't the worst wagon in the world. If it's the case before I go to sleep that his wagon is by far the biggest then i'll join it. But I still prefer shaddow, etc.

[implosion]

If someone could be bothered to say WHY we're voting shadow? But I feel like if there were a good reason it would be in thread by now.

ISO me?

[implosion]

K so as far as I can tell, BPC was the probable bodyguard target. If nobody disagrees that probably means he's off the table, not that I was scumreading him anyway.

This is bad reasoning. He never really crumbed, he just elucidated a townread. BPC was not a likely scum kill a priori (I may be wrong about this, but not as far as I can tell in terms of him and his slot having been under suspicion), so there's little good reason to think that he was the scum kill. We have no guarantee that the bodyguard was crumbed in the first place, and what he said about bpc does not come off as a crumb, it comes off as a general townread. Technically we don't have any guarantee that it was a successful protection though that is likely.

VOTE: ZZZX

for now. To humor mala + make him post.

[implosion]

Well You can force me to post by making the time become a weekend

thats... about it.

so yea wait for le weekend.

This is not exactly the most motivating reason i've ever seen to unvote someone

[implosion]

A. DV is a competent player

This does not imply that he crumbed a bodyguard target.

[implosion]

Also there are better ways to crumb, i.e. use language that would obviously be a crumb but only in retrospect. Or use very, very strong language immediately before the day ends. Something like "Yeah. This day has 100% convinced me that BPC is town." as his last post of the day after the hammer. I think that would be pretty good as a crumb. A general townread on someone is a bad crumb because it is safe, but it is not strong, i.e. there is no good way to tell that it is a crumb rather than a generic townread.

[implosion]

Provide examples.

I did, at least one. I can't really provide examples from real games because I've never seen a bodyguard crumb their target. Which is funny because I've seen some pretty damn competent players play bodyguard (of course, the main example I can think of of this was mostly lost to the crash, it's here if you're interested, retrospective was a bodyguard).

That's exactly what he did. His last expressed townread was "pretty sure BPC is town" and then an afterthought post justifying why. After that he spent every post trying to work out the lynch compromise, and he certainly wasn't on in twilight.

In the world where "pretty sure x is town" counts as strong language I struggle to think what counts as weak language. You're also just lying, he called BPC scum in his 4th last post and his 3rd last post has significant content. And his 4th last post was not right before the day ended, it was on the 10th. The day ended on the 13th.

[implosion]

I have no interest in continuing this conversation because i'm fairly confident that almost all of the contention is because of misinterpretations. It also just isn't useful.

Even if it were the case that DeasVail were known to crumb as bodyguard in exactly this way, even if we had a confirmed town tracker who tracked DeasVail to BipolarChemist last night, that wouldn't mean we could be sure that BPC is town. Scum could have had some other reason to directly kill DV (i.e. a rolecop). We just can't know. At that point continuing this conversation is pointless. Unless you give me a combination of a tracker who tracked deasvail to bpc and a watcher who watched deasvail and saw no one target him i'm not going to see this as having any weight.

[implosion]

on that note i'll talk about more interesting things later because today is going to be really rough and i don't want to burn myself out.

[implosion]

~prod dodge~

(sorry)

[implosion]

RL is harder than I thought it would be.

WRT npiau: I can imagine interpreting what I did with the neil wagon as scummy, but ultimately I did it as town. I guess the most accurate defense I can give is simply that the pattern of voting that I gave is something that I would in fact do as town (seeing as I did). It might also be something that I would do as scum. For it to be a strong argument in favor of me being scum, there has to be some good reason that I would not have done that as town or that I would be unlikely to.

[implosion]

By the way, I found something interesting. Implosion says in 19 the following: "Flames isn't scummy though.". Isn't it a strange ascertainment on the first page? (Or was it a joke I don't understand?)

It was a serious statement, because I found Tammy to be town, and so the next thing I would have done would be sheep Tammy, but I didn't think Flames was scummy.


@npiau: honestly it's probably pretty informative to compare my play to the game I mentioned. I linked to it in this post. iirc I unvoted the cop claim in that game too even though I still had a pretty good amount of conviction. I think even with a high degree of conviction it's an automatic response of sorts to unvote a strong power role claim.

[implosion]

proddodge/i should have time to look at this more tomorrow

[implosion]

Okay. So I'm basically just really behind in this game because I've been devoting energy elsewhere (considered replacing out, but I'm not going to because of how many replacements there have been) SO.

Where I'm at I think is that scum is probably in {nopoint, bpc, bert, notscience} with notscience as probably the least likely. I'm kind of willing to sheep mala here just as a straight-up sheep particularly after I was wrong yesterday and I haven't been putting in enough effort today. If there is some good reason to think NPIAU is town then I'm happy to reconsider but the points I had for chaos town were never really good in the first place. iirc it was mostly gut that wasn't substantiated particularly well.

[implosion]

Because his slot was being voted by two people?

[implosion]

And there was only one other vote out, so if ~apathy~ continues then that isn't exactly good for scum-NP at that point in the game.

Also fighting against apathy is just something that I thing a replacement would typically do regardless of alignment, just because it makes the game more fun.

[implosion]

Really? This guy is scum guys. Trying to take pot-shots a good point with crap reasoning.

"pot-shots?" I was refuting a point that was made to defend the person I was voting.

Are you seriously saying that if you replaced into a slot with two votes on it as scum, that you would be happy to just let the game keep going as it is? I can understand that as possible but my logic is based very literally on what I would do if I had replaced into your slot. The only way you can think that logic is bad is if you think I'm lying about what I would have done. You can think that if you want to, but I'd really have relatively little reason to lie about something so trivial. It doesn't guarantee that you're scum or anything, all it means is that you not contributing to the apathy doesn't make you town because there are reasons you could have done it as scum.

I honestly think if I were to assess my posts today without knowledge of my alignment that I would find them scummy, but the only reason for that is that I haven't been able to put in the effort to scumhunt because I haven't had the time or energy. Regardless of that, I have more energy now than I have, so etc.

[implosion]

Welp. I'm awake.

I'm a vt.

CASE ON IMPLOSION:

This is the part where the wagon stalled for so long before finally reaching the lynch on scum. This stall was no doubt intentional. There was a lot of unvote revote, especially when neil came into the game. For now, what I see most suspicious was implosion's activity. He seems to be unvoting whenever there is a burst in Flame's voting activity and yet always revote. It would make sense that implosion is not sure whether there will be a lynch on his buddy and thus, whether he should buss his buddy. I will spend more time looking at the specifics of this interaction. For now, implosion looks scummy from this.

I already talked about this part.

Point 2

: Implosion's recent posts
This vote on shadow was bad and and reason provided was a whim.

There's no reason why that has to be scum, particularly when I already gave an elaborate justification for scumreading shadow.

He went on to cruise through Day 2 with no pressure/content whatsover on why Shadow is scum.

IIRC I did say small things about what shadow was posting after my case. i.e. 585, 668.

Then he sets up for the next myslynch here on my slot. Day 3 votes before I came in, again no reasoning to justify votes just non-scumhunting materials all over the places. When I replaced in, he made a few posts, post 793 post 807 post 859 post 862
Taking potshots at cases on him without justifying his votes or any sort of scum-hunting going on what so ever.
NO SCUM-HUNTING, NO VOTE JUSTIFICATION
I fail to see why you guys do not see this but

This is scum cruising through the day.

I admit my play has been very bad today. But me as scum with more energy to put into this game would have done more scumhunting today; saying that I'm cruising and then calling what I do potshots when I do post material does not leave any way for me, under that philosophy, to do anything you would consider town. If I have been lurking most of the day and then start posting of course you'll be able to call what I'm doing pot-shots... it isn't exactly descriptive of whether i'm town or scum.

[implosion]

Assuming I'm being lynched I'd like to give a set of dying reads but I don't really trust my reads in this game given a combination of the amount of effort I've put in and shadow flipping town. I guess the thing I can talk about is my read on AGar.

My read's pretty much entirely based on d1 but basically, two things. One, weaker, is that he made almost exclusively points that I think accurately portrayed the game. Two, his interaction with the flames wagon. He literally never unvoted the slot, and the way he pushed it I don't think was a bus. He had good points on the slot and was proactive in finding them.

[implosion]

Did you miss where Mala soft claimed and "cleared" notscience?

I'm phone bound tonight so not of much use for discussion.

Re: implosion - May I ask what the difference is for you between town and scum cruising?

Also Nacho I haven't linked what Mala said about NP, I'll remind myself to tomorrow

I have actually.

Scum cruising do not explain their votes. They do not try to sound like they are producing content like Implosion did.

Sweeping statements like this are also really, really stupid. I'm sure I can find cases of town and scum cruising who both do and don't explain their votes; in fact I would be slightly surprised if I couldn't find examples of all four of those combinations within my own completed games.

[implosion]

Implosion, who do you think is scum?
You are still failing to do this thing called scum hunting ..

Where I'm at I think is that scum is probably in {nopoint, bpc, bert, notscience} with notscience as probably the least likely.

So I'm pretty much happiest with any lynch from you/nacho/bert.

[implosion]

For clarity those reads come almost exclusively from PoE. Mala/agar/sthar/anen are all town, I think.

[implosion]

Disclaimer i started writing this post like 4 hours ago, then had to do work.

I've given my reasons for thinking those people are town before, agar very recently, but I can repeat the others.
Malakittens is a hard townread since day one which isn't going to change.
Anen, actually it looks like I never explained this one. Various instances of his posting have looked town to me... and i don't have time to look in-depth at it right now.
sthar is town because rack was. His posting since then has also been moderately town.

I know this is crap in terms of specificity but I have a lot to do today.

@bert, i somewhat trust what mala is saying about notscience, which is why notscience is town but more weakly.

[implosion]

I SHOULD be awake and have access to my computer when deadline hits fwiw.