Micro 382 - CREDIMVS PAVONI DEORVM (Game Over!)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Too much effort put into 'random' vote and use of 'lucky' numbers.

Let's quicklynch indeed.

VOTE: Mr Ree

Wolfy, I almost OMGUS'd you. Almost.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So many people to OMGUS, so little time!

I don't know Tier, I just don't like the amount of explanation. Feels forced.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Those two questions are awful. Is this supposed to look like you're trying to start discussion?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scripten/Mr Ree scum-team.

Heard it here first.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Scripten

PEdit - Look at the timing of those posts about poor questioning. Silly Billy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And what's your point? He was writing the same thing you were at the same time, saw you posted, didn't see a need to make any changes before posting. Still not seeing any reason why you shouldn't answer those questions. Either of you care to enlighten me?

So if we were both writing the same thing, at the same time...what does that tell you about the questions you asked?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're really pushing this issue. You have to be scum.

Your questions were bad. How are they supposed to help you work out somebody's alignment? They were awful questions designed to look like you were prompting discussion and scum-hunting.

I'm so sure you're gonna flip scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're really pushing this issue. You have to be scum.

Your questions were bad. How are they supposed to help you work out somebody's alignment? They were awful questions designed to look like you were prompting discussion and scum-hunting.

I'm so sure you're gonna flip scum.

Uh huh.

Well, let's see. You drop the buzzword OMGUS twice in two posts, and push for a quicklynch. OMGUS is self-centered and quicklynching is a waste of an entire day's worth of information. Combining an OMGUS vote, which you were threatening and now have on me, with a quicklynch, an idea you really like, is anti-town.

Do you see where I'm going or do I have to spell this out for you entirely?

You're gonna have to spell it out for me.

I didn't realise your first vote was a serious vote, I thought it was RVS.

Oh dear, I may have some spelling out to do for you. I know Wolfy from a previous game, the OMGUS was a joke. Both times. I don't believe you couldn't figure this out for yourself, but whatever, I've spelled it out for you now.

Quicklynching was obviously another tongue in cheek comment. Wow, what are you trying to do here?

Pretty sure I have explained my vote on you as well. I fully expect you to get lynched when the rest of the players start the game. It's just too obvious. I don't know why my buddy Tier (who funnily enough I've never played with before) hasn't got his vote on you yet.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

my buddy Tier (who funnily enough I've never played with before)

You should play with him more often he's a p cool guy I herd

Script, your questions are useless because whatever answer comes out of it is useless and not game-related. Any question should be aimed at generating content.

BBT what is the scum motivation in pushing the issue?

Defensive. Feels quite strongly that he has to defend his position instead of just admitting they were bad questions. Scum don't like to look like/admit that they have made mistakes; genuine or otherwise.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Or he's a newb genuinely thinking he made good questions?

That's not the feel I'm getting from it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT:

I didn't realize that the comment toward Wolfy was a joke and not a threat. Didn't see the previous game you were talking about. Obviously the second mention of OMGUS was framed as a joke, but I saw it as you creating an atmosphere where you could push an easy day 1 lynch on a player. When I posted my questions, I was more incredulous than anything. I was under the impression that you were trying to normalize a later OMGUS vote disguised as something else. ("No way. I would never OMGUS vote anyone. Look at posts 7 and 10; I find it absolutely ridiculous.")

I'll admit I was slightly under pressure later on. I read your vote on me as that OMGUS vote I'd been expecting out of you.

The second OMGUS was framed as a joke because that's exactly what it was. What makes you think Mr_Ree would have been 'an easy D1 lynch'? Are you now trying to explain away your bad questioning?

Alright, maybe a bit too paranoid. It's becoming a bit of a thing that I'm not particularly good at RVS/Day 1 stuff.

And there it is. You were offered a route out by Tier when he made the comment about newbie questions and you have jumped at it. You're also now softly admitting to mistakes you have made after my comment re:scum not wanting to look like they have made mistakes.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I read it and I'm not sure what to make of it so I threw something in other direction to see what develops,

To see what develops...from an RVS vote...are you serious?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I suggest you read it again and contribute something useful.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You claim there's too much effort put into an RVS vote, then you vote that person. This doesn't look like RVS to me, especially with the snarky explanation about "too much effort put into RVS." Either you don't put effort into an RVS vote or you made that vote seriously. Or you're a hypocrite, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I maybe took the comment toward Wolfy too seriously. I didn't see it as sarcasm so much as a threat. My bad.

My first vote was serious. I really thought he had put too much effort into his vote to make it appear random.

So, basically, I voted you because of the action you took in voting Mr Ree coupled the with way you phrased that post. Sure, a joke, but if you're going to vote someone on their joke, then you should expect the same treatment in return. My questions were meant to draw attention to how you'd mentioned OMGUS in both posts you'd made more than to catch you in your answer. I've explained already how it's possible to get away with an otherwise poor vote/lynch by normalizing a game theory concept. You could have answered AND said they were poor questions, but nope, you just dodged. The fact that you dodged them made me push, because if there's one thing I've seen scum do consistently, it's dodge questions, especially ones that are easy to answer; questions that a townie would have no reason to avoid.

Again, my first vote was serious.

Your questions had no relevance to how you would work out my alignment, they were bad questions designed to make it look like you were prompting discussion and scum-hunting; not that you'd need to work out my alignment because you already know I'm town, amirite?

Again, keep in mind that I didn't realize that you had prior game experience with Wolfy or that your OMGUS thing was a running joke. I don't really do meta, and I don't know which game you are referring to anyway. You just said up and said "I'm not going to answer that." I pushed you to answer (Or even give a reason why you shouldn't answer) and you voted me here(20) with nothing else in the post. OMGUS, just like I had been expecting out of you, and you didn't even deign to answer why you were dodging questions. I ask AGAIN and you answer half my post here(23) and STILL don't either answer or explain what was wrong with my questions.

Circular discussion about to happen up in here.

How is my vote OMGUS when I have specifically said why I voted for you? I have explained what was wrong with your questions, I have nothing more to add on this.

Side Note: You had a whole lot of fluff in that post and this discussion is going around in circles now.

Wolfy:

Just to be sure, can you confirm that explanation, please? It's reasonable that it's a running joke, but I don't feel like taking chances.

BBT's first newbie game (my second) I read him as solid town the whole game - he was scum.
He drew comments afterwards from the pros for exceptional 1st time scum play.
My RVS vote wasn't random - I picked him because I knew him - but it was meant as a joke.
I am taking his response in the same manner.
I am leaving my vote on him though because after last time he's going to have to work a

lot

harder to convince me he is town

Wolfy, I would be offended if you wasn't so complimentary.

Now, move your vote onto a scum wagon please. Scripten is scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The whole purpose of the RVS stage is to throw out votes and see how people react, buddy, defend, sheep, etc.

It seems to me that there was a comment, and then someone's over reaction, and then an overreaction to the overreaction.

That's...nice and vague.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I was waiting on a game start PM.

@Mod - It might be worth sending a game start PM to Clusk and Shaded who are yet to post in the game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And you are sheeping like there's no tomorrow. Hence my comments about it. Again, do you have

anything

original to say, or are you just going to regurgitate what's already been said?

What can I say...I present good cases.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Tier - You're making a mistake if you think Scripten's questioning was coming from a newb townie.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thanks for the assessment.

Engage with me. If you think Scripten is town, tell me why.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Spoiler: Why Scripten is scum

Those two questions are awful. Is this supposed to look like you're trying to start discussion?

Your questions were bad. How are they supposed to help you work out somebody's alignment? They were awful questions designed to look like you were prompting discussion and scum-hunting.

BBT what is the scum motivation in pushing the issue?

Defensive. Feels quite strongly that he has to defend his position instead of just admitting they were bad questions. Scum don't like to look like/admit that they have made mistakes; genuine or otherwise.

Alright, maybe a bit too paranoid. It's becoming a bit of a thing that I'm not particularly good at RVS/Day 1 stuff.

And there it is. You were offered a route out by Tier when he made the comment about newbie questions and you have jumped at it. You're also now softly admitting to mistakes you have made after my comment re:scum not wanting to look like they have made mistakes.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Actually, I have a question about 36; what exactly was you paranoid about?

PEdit - That's so pro-town of you to do so. I'm not scum-hunting. At all.

PEdit v2 - Not sure if they're lurking or simply inactive. It's annoying, that's for sure.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah it is, there is a difference between lurking and being inactive; I interpret both differently depending on circumstances.

What do you want me to say on people who haven't posted anything?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Would like to see more from Wolfy and Vettrock given they know the game has started. Those two are lurking and I don't like it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Well, now that you're here (glad your team won today as well, always nice to see Liverpool lose). What do you think of the game so far?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It wouldn't surprise me if BBT & Scripten were the scum team - distancing with aggressive push in the full knowledge that we're not going to lynch on the basis of this discussion!

Why don't you jump on the Scripten wagon and we can put that to the test?

Yo dis wagon

VOTE: josh b

Vote tags are p hard when drru.k

I hate it when town starts voting town. Such a waste of time.

Why exactly are you scum-reading Josh?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I

really

don't like that you're so concerned about your image that you'll switch wagons just to be on at the right time.

Can you clarify where he did this please because I don't see it.

Still a little bit early to start looking for teams guys, especially without a single scum flip.

Not liking my current Tier vote, that guy may actually be town. Looking for a new wagon. Any suggestions?

You're keeping up with the game whilst contibuting zilch. Stop actively lurking and do something.

Don't push shitty wagons against RVS posts, unless you want to be scum read.

He's scumreading because he

has

to, it seems.

Plus, that sheep is horrible.

I don't understand this, especially the first part. Elaborate please.

still crap. personal but not alignment indicative.

Was about to say stop sitting on the fence, then;

VOTE: Josh_B
I can go with this. Looking pretty scummy.

Bad vote. Why do you think Josh is scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's in the post right above yours. Specifically, when I pressed him for sheeping, he seemed to think that the fact that he was second on a wagon was more important than having no original points. To me, it's not. He could have been the first to vote me and his vote would still be based on sheeping if he wasn't actually coming to his own conclusions.

You're just supporting this by claiming infallibility on a scum read that's way too powerful for this early in the game. The way you try to push votes around also makes you look scummy from my PoV, and if I flip, I highly suspect the rest of the town to agree. Considering I have a mild town read on you atm, that's bad.

For the first part, can you quote it please.

If I think you're scum, I'm going to push it. Whether we're on page 2 or page 52 makes no difference to me. Considering you think I'm scummy, I'm surprised you're 'mildly town-reading me'.

Is this a read to appease?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

^ This here.

I said that pushing votes around like that looks scummy. Just because you're slightly more town in my eyes doesn't mean you've not been scumread for your play.

I was asking you to quote Josh to show where he started speaking about his position on a wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oops sorry, prod received. I totally forgot the game, will catch up soon.

Hey, how you getting on with that catch up?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So, in summary:

Josh_B and Scripten

• two solid townies stuck in a conf bias loop that they won't get out of all game (or the best scum team ever)

BBT

• active scum hunting townie - just like the last game I played with him (when he was
  scum
  !)

Tiershift

• active scum hunting townie - stirrer/catalyst.

Clusk/Mr_Ree/Shaded/Vettrock/Me - all null - not enough content posting.
Still, it has been very entertaining so far.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mr_Ree
something not quite right about the response to the RVS votes - looks like trying to hide in the pack since then...

Hmm.

When did your read change on Josh? Why did you think he was scummy when you voted for him? What in particular changed your read from scummy to townie?

It's quite the jump from voting him for 'looking scummy' to a 'solid townie'.

VOTE: Wolfy

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Josh_B
I can go with this. Looking pretty scummy.

This says you were reading Josh as scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

[
Nah. It says I was reading him as pretty!

I wasn't. It was a vote to get a reaction. What I got was next to nothing. He just carried on bickering with Scripten. That tells me town.

You may have been about to get a reaction;

Can you please give more of an explanation? What did you decide was alignment indicative?

But you chose to ignore this for some reason. Why is that?

Your logic and thoughts are not consistent so far. You were very fence-sitty at the beginning as well. I think that was an opportunistic vote that you realized you couldn't explain without it looking like you were sheeping so you retracted it.

Then you immediately OMGUS me. Why do you think I'm scum exactly?

I'm almost certain you're scum here.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scripten, Wolfy is the lynch today.

Jump on the wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oh shit, Scripten might actually be town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So me and Scripten a scum team?
No - I see from a later post that you think Scripten might be town now.

Your "almost certain" = "worth fuck all" because you can't possibly accurately scum read from what somebody says this early in a game.
Post 27 about Scripten - "I'm so sure you're gonna flip scum."

Explain the difference between "so sure" that Scripten is going to flip scum with "almost certain" that I am scum.

Here is my explanation: BBT has insufficient information and is talking crap.

Stop using hyperbole.
Having slight scum reads at this stage is fine - being "sure" or "almost certain" is absolute crap.

That's a lot of fluff.

Nice post.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Having slight scum reads at this stage is fine -

being "sure" or "almost certain" is absolute crap

.

Scripten, Wolfy is the lynch today.
Jump on the wagon.

This is exactly what he did when I last played with him -

confirmed scum

Hi Wolfy.

You're looking pretty desperate right now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wolfy, can we still be friends after your lynch?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT:

I do not appreciate that I'm suddenly "potential town" because I agree with you. What's with that? That's not a town-sided attitude to have. That's self-serving meta BS. Considering your strong feelings on the matter, isn't that something you should be avoiding?

PPE: Post 162 does make sense. However, your answers have not satisfied me, Wolfy.

I wouldn't expect you to bus your partner right now. When you made your first post restating your case on Josh it looked like you were trying to keep a counter-wagon going to oppose the Wolfy one I was starting.

However, you changed that and voted for him. Therefore, right now, you're probably town and Wolfy is scum.

Wolfy's reaction should make it clear to everyone he is scum.

Self-serving meta BS? I'm not sure what you mean here.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Actually, I specifically meant that BBT's "Agrees with me = towntell" is BS. Tiershift got it, though.

BBT:

The whole conf bias thing is getting old as well. It's like you're setting up a meta for people in other games to look back on. Smells of gaming the system, and that's really uncool.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT:

Basically, you've been going through this game saying that people who agree with you are town. Your sudden town read on me supports that. Being so damn cocksure of your reads, especially on day 1, is folly. I said this before and I hold by it. If you're trying to manipulate your meta, please STOP. It's just making it more difficult for the rest of the town.

165 is why you're reading town to me right now. It's not because you agree with me.

I am intrigued though. What makes you think I am trying to manipulate my meta? Such a strange thing to say given my stance on meta.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I

do

push my scum-reads hard. Not much else to say, that's just how I play.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mr Ree, can you hammer please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mr Ree, can you hammer please.

Why should we want to quickhammer before Wolfy has had more chances to answer questions/slip up?

You don't think he has slipped up enough yet?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Look at Wolfy's ISO. It's ridiculous.

Anybody who accuses him of being scum is automatically OMGUS'ed and he accuses them of being scum.

So far he has OMGUS'ed me, FoS Scripten (calling us the scum-team), OMGUS'ed Asher and now thinks Mr. Ree is scum or not very clever townie.

You know there are only two scum in this game, right Wolfy? The only person who has avoided your wrath is Tier.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You know there are only two scum in this game, right Wolfy? The only person who has avoided your wrath is Tier.

an you're already

certain

you've found them!

You're still not answering questions...
What next when I flip town?

You're not flipping town. On the off-chance that you do, you should work on your town play. It's pretty bad.

Funny how you think I am still scum-reading Scripten. You're not keeping up very well are you?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You know there are only two scum in this game, right Wolfy? The only person who has avoided your wrath is Tier.

an you're already

certain

you've found them!

You're still not answering questions...
What next when I flip town?

You're not flipping town. On the off-chance that you do, you should work on your town play. It's pretty bad.

Whoa, now. That's not cool. You're deflecting a legitimate question.

Hypothetically, if he does flip town, where would you go on day 2 for first suspicions? Hell, why not give us both situations: IE scum and town Wolfy?

Jesus Christ. I don't believe you're this bad at mafia. Like, I just don't.

Think about it. Think about the question and what my response could be. Think who that might help, think who gets to use that information over N1...Jesus Christ.

PEdit - Wolfy, stop insulting me. I don't know why you're making this personal.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How in the hell would explaining your top potential scum reads help the scumteam? What, so they can eliminate the players that look towniest to

exclusively you

? You're really overestimating your power over this game if you think that.

I'm not saying it's a bad question specifcally because its aimed at me. I'm saying it is a bad question full stop.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Asking everyone for their full reads isn't good, but top one or two scum picks is a different story. Rather than just saying "it's bad because I say so," would you please explain how it is bad for you to give one or two reads?

If you can tell me what the advantages of doing that would be; sure, why not.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It allows us corroborate our own reads if you happened to notice something the rest of us missed. Likewise, it helps to alleviate the inherent advantage scum have over town. They already know who is scum and who is town, so scum reads give information exclusively to town. The scumteam really doesn't care who we think is scum. In fact, keeping scummy town players around can be useful to them. And process of elimination is only so useful.

Why do you think the opposite?

What you mean by this, of course, is it gives scum a running commentary of what town are doing/thinking and what direction we plan to head in on the next day in x, y and z scenarios. Scum can formulate a strategy over N1 to deal with this; do you see that?

scripten, I think you are hunting for reads because you want to know who to NK. I don't think reads are good right now, and I'd like you to have to shoot in the dark.
This isn't my normal stance, I'll admit, but the question you are asking BBT right now seems like the same question you asked Vettrok.

Since scum have to fabricate their reads, we're about one second from going into NP, and we still have players MIA.

At this point it probably won't do anyone any good to give reads until after the flip.

This guy knows what he is talking about. He's just approaching it the wrong way.

@Bold - Can you clarify this?

I would also love to see a reads list from Wolfy. If only for the comedy value.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

PEdit - Wolfy, stop insulting me. I don't know why you're making this personal.

It's not personal:
it's your reads that are bad - not you (probably)
it's your logic that is faulty - not you (probably)

Reads-list please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How about a concise reads-list right here on every player. An example format could be;

*Name - Alignment*

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How about a concise reads-list right here on every player. An example format could be;

*Name - Alignment*

how about you answer the questions I've asked you this game that you've dodged?

Here's another one:
Why did I claim VT?

By not providing a reads-list, you're really not helping your *fellow* townies. You know that right?

You prob claimed VT because fake-claiming something else would get you into trouble? Amirite?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So, in summary:

Josh_B and Scripten

• two solid townies stuck in a conf bias loop that they won't get out of all game (or the best scum team ever)

BBT

• active scum hunting townie - just like the last game I played with him (when he was
  scum
  !)

Tiershift

• active scum hunting townie - stirrer/catalyst.

Clusk/Mr_Ree/Shaded/Vettrock/Me - all null - not enough content posting.
Still, it has been very entertaining so far.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mr_Ree
something not quite right about the response to the RVS votes - looks like trying to hide in the pack since then...

since you're all too lazy to read back.
The only change is Asher's scummy entry as I said in 228

BTW If I were scum I would have claimed Cop - 50/50 is better odds than 100%.
If there wasn't a CC you might not have lynched me - if there was a CC I'd have outed the cop.

I'm V/LA now for 4 days so that's all you get.
Good luck town.
I wonder who BBT will be certain of tomorrow...

And this reads list hasn't changed/updated in nearly 4 pages worth of posts? Even after all your unvoting and voting? Even after saying I am scummier than scum despite apparently town-reading me?

Come on man, you just put the final nail in your own coffin.

Mr. Ree, hammer awayyyyyyyy!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Spoiler: Response to Wake

BlueBloodedToffee

As with Scripten, BBT is rather talkative. I wonder if BBT has any suspicions of Vettrock.

Yes, I do. Question further in post.

Well, crud. I was thinking about how Scripten made a case against Josh, and then turned around and killed Wolfy. I also considered how he talked so much. I noticed how BBT was chatty as well, and as I scrolled down his ISO I wondered if he'd jump on Wolfy. And sure enough he did.

What is this in reference to? Can you clarify please?

It's looking like Wolfy was a policy lynch

What? What makes you think Wolfy was a policy lynch? Did you not read my reasoning for voting him and his responses to any criticism thrown his way? He must have voted/FoS like 4 different people with his reads seemingly changing on a whim.

I'd like to see your current Scumreads, please. Out of curiosity, did you primarily lynch Wolfy for being anti-Town, or for being Scummy?

I thought he was scum.

27:

You're really pushing this issue. You have to be scum.

When you make posts like this, it feels not only forced, but also fake. It's that subtle twinge of fakeness that gives me doubts. I'd like answers from you on why you imply he's Scum, but then take your detour and go for Wolfy. Was it worth it? I think when you use strong language, going so far as to declare someone's Scum, your actions should follow suit with your words. Otherwise it makes you disingenuous, and no amount of posts will change that, in my opinion.

Again, I had my reasons for voting Wolfy. Look them up. His reactions to being voted just re-enforced my read even further.

What adds even more weight to my inquiry is your 79, in which you declare to all exactly why you think Scripten is Scum. Why the change? If you would, please walk me through on this. I daresay your earlier certainty betrays your innocence, because you've gone from declaring Scripten Scum to "

Funny how you think I am still scum-reading Scripten.

" Wolfy had flaws, to be sure, but he did flip Town, and you did flip-flop. If it's not too much trouble, I want answers, or I'm afraid I will begin to zero-in on your posts until my curiosity is satisfied.

It wasn't so much a change in read on Scripten, it was more to do with me thinking Wolfy looked much scummier.

I don't think Scripten is scum anymore. This is due to the way he joined the Wolfy wagon and then his questioning of my town-read on him.

This is the general consensus. I usually use spoilers to reduce game clutter. However this time, I wanted everything that I said about scripten to be in my Iso. I don't plan on going after him today. I want to get better reads on other players. At this point, I think vetrock is probably town. It was really tough to watch him replace my slot in Marvel and see him be so uncertain about Vezok. That game is over now, so :problem solved, problem staying solved. Marvel was a huge roller coaster for me that started back in April. I did a lot to be conf town, so it was disappointing to watch vettrock allow so much uncertainty to build up around the slot without ever addressing it.

I like seeing the responses from Asher.
I still think scripten is scummy.
I had strong feelings at the start of DP1 that BBT is town
Tiershift is in my town pile
ShadedMelee was null, Wake seems to be town. The inclusion of Mr. Ree in his questions makes it rather obvious that he planned to question him before he died, and therefore had expectations of him being in DP2.

Just to clarify; your town-read on Vettrock is based on meta, right?

Your reads list is strange. You had strong feelings I was town at start of D1, how about now? Has that changed?

You're town-reading everyone in the game except Scripten; who you're not going to pursue today. So, what exactly are you planning on doing for D2?

Also;

Vettrock and Josh_B

- Can you explain what made you so sure Wolfy was town? Also, given that you both thought he was town, why did neither of you try to defend him? You both just let the wagon and lynch happen whilst subtly stating you thought he was town.

I think the whole wagon on Wolfy may have been town. If there was scum on it, it's one of Tier or Asher; leaning Asher.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Not true, and I bolded my plans in purple. So you can see them better.

Yeah it is true. You're town-reading vettrock, you had 'strong feelings I was town at start of D1', Tier is 'in your town pile', wake 'seems town' and your 'liking the responses of Asher'.

What am I missing?

The scumminess of the wagon outwieghed the scumminess of the player. I never stated that he was town.

This makes no sense. The wagon consisted of myself (strong town-read), Tier (who is in your town pile), Asher (who's responses you like), Mr. Ree (who is a confirmed townie) and the one person you were scum-reading.

Elaborate for me, how did you find this particular wagon so scummy and why was there no mention of this D1?

Also, in 237 you say "Let me be honest, I'm not hammering Wolfy right now because his vote on me was something that I would do if two other players were arguing in circles about irrelevant useless crap that really wasn't all that alignment indicative".

How was this alignment indicative of Wolfy?

now let me ask you this question. At the beginning of the game, you defended yourself from scripten over the OMGUS on Wolfy. But when Wolfy came in, it seems like you didn't even give him a chance before you started saying he was scum and getting scripten to vote him. Why not? I could see how if wolfy flipped scum, you could solidify your opinion of scripten. But I can't see it with wolfy being town. From my POV, scripten looked very opportunistic. Although at this point I will admit that I'm probably in a confbias loop of his behavior.

See 142, 144 and 146 where I gave Wolfy numerous chances to explain his thought processes/reads and he just wasn't providing sufficient answers from my perspective.

Why are you making a relation between the OMGUS and my attack on Wolfy?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Spoiler: Response to Josh

BBT, Wolfy did not flip scum. Yet your reads still seem to follow that wolfy was scum. 142 was my point, you instantly voted him.

Right, and I could instantly unvote him if I was satisfied with his answers. My vote is my weapon, I like to use it.

My reads do not follow that Wolfy was scum. I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I'm still trying to decide if there were any scum on that Wolfy wagon.

Wolfy said he made a reaction test. Scum do not need reaction tests. That is moderately alignment indicative.

You're joking right? So scum could not use 'reaction test' reasoning to try and explain a bad vote? He went from you being 'pretty scummy' (109) to 'solid townie' (141) and didn't explain his thought process at all. Obviously, we now know it was just bad town play, but it looked ridiculously scummy.

The relation that I'm making is not about Wolfy. It's on your town read of scripten even though wolfy wasn't scum. Don't you think that it's more likely that scum would be scum jumping on an opportunity wagon?

I see where you're coming from. But I explained that the way in which he joined the wagon and questioned my town-read of him just gave me town-vibes. I could be completely wrong, and he's certainly not a solid town-read, but I just don't think he is scum right now.

and you are twisting my words. I said "I like seeing the responses from Asher." Not that I like the responses from Asher.

Can you clarify the difference for me?

I'll try and address some of the questions towards me, and I'll try and dig deeper to make sure I address all of the question later.

On Wolfy, and why I didn't defend him harder and why I thought he was town. I thought He was town. I didn't have a particularly reason other than his play being similar that the last time I played with him, and the fact that the wagon gathered much too quickly. Part of the reason I didn't defend him "harder" is just that he was hammered before we could really discuss much more. I'm thinking there was at least one scum on the wagon there pushing it. Since Mr. Ree is confirmed town that leaves BBT, Scripten, Asher, and TierShift. Asher I find particularly scummy with his jump into the game and make a vote for the largest wagon on the way to a quick lynch. I'm not saying we should wait until the deadline is looming to finish voting, but I think by ending the Day early, it is only hurting town.

More later.

The wagon gathering quickly is a good point, and it was something I considered. However, it was only the first 3 votes that went on fairly quickly, and I think they all came from town.

The meta point is bullshit though.

Mr. Ree clearly delayed the hammer so that discussion could take place. All you did to try and prevent the lynch was 236 and 240, and that was mostly about how anti-town it was to lynch Wolfy. Not actually trying to defend Wolfy himself.

Also, in 137 you eluded to Scripten being slightly scummy but you weren't ready to call him scum yet. You instead decided to leave your vote on Shaded, an inactive. Why was that?

VOTE: Vettrock

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Josh:

Elaborate for me,

how

why did you find this particular wagon so scummy and why was there no mention of this D1?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hi Josh, please see 280 and respond please.

As for the 'quick wagon, no reason', I don't believe for one second that town Josh would not find Wolfy's reactions scummy. Everyone (bar one) on the Wolfy wagon you were reading as town, how does that make the wagon scummy?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Spoiler: Response to Josh

When you decided that scripten was town, it was based on the idea that scripten wouldn't bus his scum partner so easily, and that you thought it was more likely that wolfy was scum than scripten. amiright? retrospectively, wolfy was not anyone's scum partner. And therefore, the "town" tell towards scripten is not actually a town tell. It actually increases the chances of him being scum, because he was so willing to cross the aisle.

Correct. My initial town-read on Scripten was

based

on him joining the Wolfy wagon. However, the way he joined it (almost with no reasoning and very little encourgament makes me think he is town). Then he questioned my town-read on him. Add in that I feel his 268 is pretty town, all of these things make me feel like he is more likely to be town than scum.

Why wouldn't there be scum on the wagon? As fast as the wagon went, the empty votes, the previous read abandonments. It surprises me that you wouldn't automatically assume there are scum on the wagon.

You keep pushing the idea that the wagon should be analyzed for scum. Indeed, it usually would and I would usually do that too. However, if you're scum, you're banking on people analyzing a wagon that was on a townie. I mean, how can there be no scum on a townie mislynch right? But, I feel it was an all town lynch. Killing one townie on the wagon leaves a narrower pool for town to lynch from again because that would be the natural progression for the game.

I could be wrong. Hell, there could be two scum on that wagon. I just don't see it though. I've never seen somebody act so scummy who flipped town. Never. The fact that neither you or Vettrock even considered that Wolfy could be scum really doesn't sit right with me.

I agree, Wolfy didn't answer some of my questions also. He said some questionable things. Obviously, it was bad town play. But let's look at the wagon for what it was. - A free mislynch. evaluate it just like you would any other mislynch

You agree? What part are you agreeing with? It's obvious

now

that it was bad town play, so on D1, by this thought process you should have seen it as scummy play, no? This is what I don't understand

Yea, it's almost like he's saying that you were doing the same thing that wolfy was doing. Switching erratically from an absolute scum read to town read. I guess it is pretty townie that he called you on that.
I don't think I have switched 'erratically'. I have tried my best to explain how my read developed; I can't do anymore than that.

I asked Asher for some sort of catch up on DP1, which he said no to. And I also called him out on his joining the wagon, which he ignored. Thank god he is at least posting some content about this game for somebody

You're scum-reading Asher?

Now that there has been some back and forth, what are other people's opinions about what's going on? In particular, with thoughts to myself thinking that it could have been an all town lynch. Is anyone thinking different? If so, who is the scum on the wagon?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You forgot to respond to this part;

I agree, Wolfy didn't answer some of my questions also. He said some questionable things. Obviously, it was bad town play. But let's look at the wagon for what it was. - A free mislynch. evaluate it just like you would any other mislynch

You agree? What part are you agreeing with? It's obvious

now

that it was bad town play, so on D1, by this thought process you should have seen it as scummy play, no? This is what I don't understand

Are you proposing a Scripten/Asher scum-team?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Even though this spoiler is directed at Josh, I would appreciate it if everybody could read it and provide some thoughts (as well as previous spoilers if they haven't been read already). I feel I am building a good case here but not getting input from anywhere else.

Spoiler: Response to Josh

You agree? What part are you agreeing with? It's obvious now that it was bad town play, so on D1, by this thought process you should have seen it as scummy play, no? This is what I don't understand

The reaction test was townie. Some of the other things, not so much. Obviously I couldn't have known if was bad town play or scum play. But I do know now, and I'm trying to move forward with that new information. This point seems to be where we are having a disconnect. I'm looking at Wolfy who died from being a VI. You still seem to be trying to prove that Wolfy was scum.

You haven't said what part you agreed with. I'm not trying to prove Wolfy was scum, I'm trying to understand how you were town-reading him yet done next to nothing to prevent his lynch.

This whole reaction test that you think was obvtown is ridiculous. You replied to Wolfy's reaction test with;

Can you please give more of an explanation? What did you decide was alignment indicative?

Then Wolfy went from you 'looking quite scummy' to;

So, in summary:

Josh_B and Scripten

two solid townies stuck in a conf bias loop that they won't get out of all game (or the best scum team ever)

And that was it. So your response, which you believed was enough for Wolfy to town-read you, (in 176 you said;)

"Wolfy, I think it's fair that you used the tone of my response to decide on my alignment"

was the whole reaction test? That's it, just one post and you're conf. town to Wolfy and you just accept that. I guess you keep town-reads wherever you can get them when you're scum, amiright?

Are you proposing a Scripten/Asher scum-team?

Maybe. We'll see. Are you proposing a Josh/vettrok scum team?

Maybe. We'll see. Still haven't decided if that was an all town wagon on Wolfy. Both scum white-knighting doesn't sit right with me though.

I would still like you to respond to this post but I think I have seen enough now.

VOTE: Josh_B

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Josh can you elaborate on this please; given that you're saying you didn't know if Wolfy was town or not. This quote suggests you were leaning town on him.

Let me be honest, I'm not hammering Wolfy right now because his vote on me was something that I would do if two other players were arguing in circles about irrelevant useless crap that really wasn't all that alignment indicative.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wake

: Tier is probably town. You should put more effort/energy elsewhere.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

With respect to you and your views, I'm not so sure about that. There are some things from him I'd like answers on. If you feel he is Town, and that I should actually put effort and energy elsewhere, I think the best path towards that would be to peruse the post I made regarding him, and point out exactly why my observations are flawed and/or unhelpful. I'm not sure what to think of you implying I should look elsewhere (if that is not true, please correct me).

I'm 100% saying you should look elsewhere (Hint: Josh).

I don't explain town-reads, it's unhelpful. The only reason I went into some detail on Scripten is because it was a developed read, from scum to town, and I don't mind explaining my thoughts/progression in doing so.

I feel Tier has been town since near the beginning of the game.

We may have to agree to disagree.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

.

I'm having a hard time responding to what you are saying because we don't agree on the premises.
You say that I was convinced that Wolfy was town, even though I wasn't. Your continued questions are based on me being convinced that Wolfy was town during DP1. Particularly "why didn't you try harder to stop the lynch?" And my answers is

"I didn't know if he was or wasn't town."

I'm sorry that I wasn't utterly convinced that he was scum, the way you were. I also think that you are trying to push this issue that I should have been convinced one way or the other, or that I was convinced of something that I wasn't.

And fuck.. I'm losing posts.

Can you respond to this quote below? It leads me to believe you thought Wolfy was town, or was at least leaning on him being town.

Let me be honest, I'm not hammering Wolfy right now because his vote on me was something that I would do if two other players were arguing in circles about irrelevant useless crap that really wasn't all that alignment indicative.

I believe this quote makes more sense if you add;

Let me be honest, I'm not hammering Wolfy right now because his vote on me was something that I would do if

I was town and

two other players were arguing in circles about irrelevant useless crap that really wasn't all that alignment indicative.

That's how I am reading that quote. Correct me if I'm wrong and explain what you mean when you say 'it's something you would do'.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, why is nobody placing any votes?

It's concerning.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's that twisty manipulative bullshit, you can't read it the way I wrote it cause it doesn't fit your agenda. How does it make more sense by you adding in some outlandish flim-flam?

I asked you to correct me if I'm wrong. Can you correct me? What did you mean by that statement?

Your townread on scripten was based on his willingness to vote scum (wolfy). Now that this scum flipped town, does that affect your scripten read?

Thanks asking this Tiershift. Maybe he'll respond if you ask him.

This is getting real boring.

Correct. My initial town-read on Scripten was

based

on him joining the Wolfy wagon. However, the way he joined it (almost with no reasoning and very little encourgament makes me think he is town). Then he questioned my town-read on him. Add in that I feel his 268 is pretty town, all of these things make me feel like he is more likely to be town than scum.

Tier asked the question half-way through his re-read (where he wouldn't have seen how my read developed and my reasoning in the above quote); stop acting like this question hasn't been answered.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's been answered.

It's right there.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Correct. My initial town-read on Scripten was

based

on him joining the Wolfy wagon. However, the way he joined it (almost with no reasoning and very little encourgament makes me think he is town). Then he questioned my town-read on him. Add in that I feel his 268 is pretty town, all of these things make me feel like he is more likely to be town than scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Should I make the text bigger?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hi Josh;

I asked you to correct me if I'm wrong. Can you correct me? What did you mean by that statement?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Deal.

I added it in because that's the way I read it. I read it as you saying 'Wolfy is doing what I would do as town in his situation, therefore I'm not hammering him'. I added it in to provide content to the point I was trying to put across.

Your turn.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

But you already knew that right? You already knew I was implying you were town-reading (knew Wolfy was town) from that statement.

It looks like a slip.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So you were town-reading Wolfy then?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

There's no need to make the text bigger, thanks.

Does this all offset the extreme scumminess that scripten was radiating? The enormous RVS case he pushed? Your certainness he was scum?

Right now, yes it does.

There are people who look much scummier to me today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So you were town-reading Wolfy then?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@BBT stop being dumb, thanks.

You don't think it's relevant to find out if Josh was town-reading Wolfy on D1?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wolfy said he made a reaction test. Scum do not need reaction tests. That is moderately alignment indicative.

So, this is Josh not town-reading Wolfy. Right?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Please see the quote from my 355.

Were you, or were you not, town reading Wolfy. It's a yes or no question.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's a loaded question, with a false dichotomy. I had

NO READ

on wolfy.
I attempted to engage him, 12 posts later he was at l-1 with the intent to hammer already stated. He was doing whatever the fuck it was that he was doing, and it really didn't matter to me anymore. End of story. I've said this a lot of times. I don't know why you keep asking me, or what kind of answer you are trying to get out of me, but that's it. How long do you plan on tunneling this?

Wolfy said he made a reaction test.

Scum

do not need reaction tests.

That is moderately alignment indicative

.

So, this is Josh not town-reading Wolfy. Right?

This suggests you had a moderate read on Wolfy.

I've seen enough. I'll keep tunneling you until you're lynched.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Reads-list for all players when you're done please Josh.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

391 is a case.

Not a reads list.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you give a reads-list please?

I'm not sure what your reads are on myself or Scripten.

Just a name and a comment on what you think their alignment is will be sufficient.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

In response to 393:

I'm not going over the read on Wolfy. It's clear as day you were town-reading him and did nothing to try and prevent his lynch. I also found it strange that you just accepted his town-read on you from his 'reaction test. This has all been said over and over, I see no need to keep doing it and that's all I'm saying on it.

Sure, I can explain those posts.

267 - I wasn't (and still am not) sure if the wagon was all-town. It feels all town to me; but, if it isn't, Tier and Asher would the two I would look at on the wagon as being scum. Asher more so than Tier because I have had a town-read on Tier since near the start of the game. The magnitude of this town-read has wavered over the course of the game but never turned into a null or a scum-read. I know I'm town and I'm pretty sure Scripten is town, therefore if there was scum on the wagon; it leaves Tier and Asher.

304 - The above kind of responds to this as well. I said Tier is

probably

town, which is a lot different to 'Back the hell of Tier Wake, he's like conf. town'.

I'm sure you can appreciate the difference.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scripten, wtf are you doing?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Current developments are interesting, I can get behind a BBT vote.
I'm going to abstain from commenting for reasons that will be obvious.

Are you serious Tier?

Have I taken crazy pills? WTF is going on in this game?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you elaborate on my scumminess?

Because you were hard town-reading me not too long ago

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know what's going on right now.

I'm stunned.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have no idea what's going on.

What's ttm?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I am town.

You have outside communication in this game?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alignment test is all I can see.

That was fucking clever. I only really noticed the italic 'l' on like, the rest I completely missed.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

For sure.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You guys are on another level.

I still can't spot Tier's crumb.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, sweet.

Just waiting for the hammer now...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My vote is on him.

Scripten holds the hammer...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's kind of him.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Aww, no self-hammer?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scripten, can you unvote me please.

Josh am be hoping on Wake hammering me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

PEdit - Josh may be hoping on Wake hammering me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you finish your reads-list now Josh?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You could do Wake next. Then Vettrock.

Sound good?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I would appreciate it if we could just hammer Josh and get this day done with. I see no need to drag it out further.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Tier, we can work out what Wake/Vettrock are doing on D3.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oh yeah, I can actually see that. It makes sense but I guess my excitement ruined it. What do you think about BBT and Asher having nearly identical cases against vettrock and myself like I pointed out earlier?

that is a team slip.

You know it is.
As town you are part of an uninformed majority, against an informed minority. You know that in the Night Phases the scum have a chance to work out their plan for the next day. Check it out and get back to me. Especially Scripten and Tiershift.

I could hammer myself but at this point I'm a

little

lot worried that even after I flip that Tiershift and Scripten won't look at that, and the thing is that

ALL three towns

who are left won't be able to work together.

It's poor play to try and push associative cases without a flip.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's poor play to try and push associative cases without a flip.

Tell that to Asher. I think he misunderstood you when you explained the whole "team" thing to him. There is no such thing as a "town team."
Besides, I'm not pushing moderate associatives. The stuff between vettrock and me is an associative case. The stuff between you and Scripten is an associative case. I'm pushing a unified team theory- An informed minority with an agenda and a plan.

You both made the same case against two different players, I'll admit, it was kind of clever and it took me doing PbPA to see it because it didn't pop out at me at first, but it's there plain as day. I would ask who created the idea for that case, but I'm pretty sure it was you.

Are you going to ask him to respond to my questions that I asked him? Are you going to respond to the questions I asked you? Particularly, what are you doing to get better reads on the other players that you think are possible scum?

I haven't pushed any case on Vettrock and you, I'm pushing you only. I don't know why you're referring to other people's posts when you're addressing me. I am not pushing any associatives at all, just you.

Are Tier and Scripten not also pushing the same points as to why you're scum? Is it only me and Asher? You should rethink that.

Did Tier not say he liked my first initial attack post on Wolfy D1? Is he not scum with me? He basically sheeped me right after my vote on Wolfy, so he used my reasoning. Why are me and Tier not a team but me and Asher are? What's the difference?

I'm not particularly interested in any of your questions, but I don't remember not answering any?

I'm waiting for your flip before I pursue other avenues. Have I not made my reads clear enough for you?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You've got heart man. You've been caught and you're still trying hard. I can respect that.

Can you continue your reads-list please, starting with Wake and then Vettrock after.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How is that reads-list coming along?

Still waiting on Wake and Vettrock.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Vettrock is done?

Can I have an updated read on both Vettrock and Wake please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Associative cases are bad without flips.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What case?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What's that got to to with you producing associative cases?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scripten, what are you hoping to gain from prolonging the day?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So Josh already claimed VT.

That means it's either him or BBT, and BBT hasn't claimed.

If BBT flips Scum Tiershift gets hyper-lynched. If Josh flips Scum then I don't know.

Scripten, whenever someone is at L-1 and they're at risk for being lynched, they should claim in order to avoid getting lynched. Refusal results in getting lynched. This is basic for Mafia. Josh claimed VT. Sans a current VC, I'm assuming BBT and Josh are both at L-1. BBT is at risk for getting lynched as well, and he should claim, too. If you don't lynch BBT and he flips Scum later on, I'll be thinking you're his partner. I'm under the impression they're both at L-1. I've been extremely busy and haven't been able to read much on what's going on. An updated VC would be awesome.

I am at L-1, but I'm under no threat of being lynched. So I do not need to claim.

Are you trying to fish for PR's?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scripten made it fairly obvious his vote was going on Josh.

You need to catch up so you don't continue posting useless content.

I seriously feel like you were role-fishing right there. Hmm.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So lynch Josh today and Wake tomorrow. Game won.

Hammer Scripten?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Probably not. I guess I'm just impatient. I hate giving scum a chance to muddy the waters.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Tier nailed me.

I'm extremely disappointed with my play this game. Tier you played great, the ONLY time I got suspicious of you was towards the end of D2. You even realized how I was working out the wagon.

Well played guys.

Thanks for modding Bulge. Really enjoyed the game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I didn't purposefully crumb anywhere, I'm way too paranoid to consider crumbing a PR.

I just didn't think about how other people may perceive my posts and it ultimately cost me.

PEdit - I'd like specific feed-back please Tier. I haven't won a single game on this site yet. 0-4 as town and 0-3 as scum I believe.

Tier I thought you played great. Like, you completely had me fooled. I got a little suspicious of you buddying me early D1 but you turned that around by questioning my reads and posts, it just looked genuine.

I can't think of a single fault in your play. You completely fooled me.

I'm seriously pissed with myself for letting Asher slip by though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll take feedback in the thread as well Tier, no need for PM. Thanks.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, I realize how it could be seen as one. But it genuinely wasn't. I just fucked up.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Negative feedback is better than positive.

Thanks Tier.