Micro 382 - CREDIMVS PAVONI DEORVM (Game Over!)

[TierShift]

VOTE: mr ree

Don't think that was random, now was it?

[TierShift]

BBT, you think he random.orged or didn't? Why/why not?

[TierShift]

I feel such questions need not be answered.

[TierShift]

U guys suck

[TierShift]

Okay that was mean sorry

[TierShift]

Who do you think is buddying who, exactly?

[TierShift]

Ree best wagon

[TierShift]

I actually failed to be noticed he posted, idk why. I don't see why I should censor myself if someone else things like I do. If anything, it shows independent thought reaching the same conclusion. You can thus assume that your questions were really below the mark. Profit and learn.

God fucking dammit you fuckin ninja

[TierShift]

Ahahaha this is hilarious actually

[TierShift]

my buddy Tier (who funnily enough I've never played with before)

You should play with him more often he's a p cool guy I herd

Script, your questions are useless because whatever answer comes out of it is useless and not game-related. Any question should be aimed at generating content.

BBT what is the scum motivation in pushing the issue?

[TierShift]

Or he's a newb genuinely thinking he made good questions?

[TierShift]

Tough break.

[TierShift]

Dam

[TierShift]

Hello everyone.
I've played with Wolfy and Clusk92 before.
VOTE: Shaded

You have no thoughts about the previous exchange whatsoever?

[TierShift]

VOTE: vettrock
for unnecessary prolongation of RVS.

[TierShift]

Someone tell me if there was anything useful in those walls

[TierShift]

Town or scum overreaction?

[TierShift]

I think you should let that idea go, scripten.

[TierShift]

Someone tell me if there was anything useful in those walls

I wasted my 3000th post on this, btw :/

[TierShift]

I got gamestart pm tho

errgh, My need to play this game interrupts my need for vengeance.

VOTE: scripten

That scummy push was scummy.

Whayyyy

[TierShift]

Josh, I asked why you found the push scummy.

If random votes are random I'm not going to randomly add them into random cases.
No, it's not a scumtell and I don't know what you mean by scumsided.

[TierShift]

not really

[TierShift]

Thanks for the assessment.

[TierShift]

overreacting and counterpushing aren't scumtells. Weak questions slightly so, but not enough to justify a full-on scumread. How about your scumread?

[TierShift]

12-27 is not enough for a scumread
31 no one likes to admit to making mistakes, not a scumtell
41 meh maybe maybe not

BBT, how many scumz in the lurkers?

[TierShift]

that's not an answer.

[TierShift]

Idk just trying to be proactive

Someone do something stupid so we have something to talk about

[TierShift]

Still a little bit early to start looking for teams guys, especially without a single scum flip.

Not liking my current Tier vote, that guy may actually be town. Looking for a new wagon. Any suggestions?

Yo dis wagon

VOTE: josh b

Vote tags are p hard when drru.k

[TierShift]

Don't push shitty wagons against RVS posts, unless you want to be scum read.

He's scumreading because he

has

to, it seems.

Plus, that sheep is horrible.

[TierShift]

I don't understand this, especially the first part. Elaborate please.

It's the wording. It's not: "I scumread you for pushing wagons against RVS posts", it's: "you deserve to be scumread for pushing wagons against RVS posts". The first one shows he's (more or less) genuinely attacking the person, the second is looking for a justification for the vote.

[TierShift]

At least we've had a few more players posting now. So, let's try this again.

Vettrock:

If you were scum, who would you target for a night kill assuming the day ended right now with a no lynch?

If the Day ended right now and I was scum it is hard to say who I would nightkill. I think we need a bit more information, as at this point I'd just have to pick a random person. A nightkill should be the person most believed to be town, or a person that is particularly threatening to you. The problem with the second option, is it points the finger at you unless they also fall under the first catagory. As there isn't anyone who is generally accepted as town at this point, I'd have to go random.

I do not like the sound of that.

[TierShift]

Scum need to pretend they're not scum in the position they're in when they answer that question. They mustn't answer truthfully because that is who they

will

kill.

Town, however, put themselves in the place of scum and pick the most threatening player to their wincon.

You seem to be of the first kind, trying to make some theory up to justify not calling who you will kill.

I must remember this question for scmhunting purposes.

[TierShift]

I think I was the first one to call you out on that sheep, bud.

I'm not townreading scripten per se. I'm just pretty sure you sheeped bad reasoning and god did it feel wrong.
I'm taking rvs pushing as a null-tell. And you saying it isn't is not changing that.

I'm not gonna read all those walls btw, but I don't see much evidence as to scriptenscum.

[TierShift]

I really have no idea what that whole post by scripten means

Nor why the quoted things are contradictions

But that's probably because I don't understand what he says in the first place

[TierShift]

Ok, here's what we're going to do, Josh and Script should both list their points against the other

in point form

so I can kill both of their cases and we can proceed from there.

That should save us from walls of baseless accusations.

Good idea

It's scripten contradicting himself about who brought up the Idea that I care about my placement on the wagon. Looking over the post now, I didn't do a good job of coloring it correctly. And yellow marks logical fallacies.

Is this your case?

So, reading that game, I know that Skripten understands that town are allowed to agree with each other, and that scum can be caught on Page 1. IMHO that means all of his accusations of sheeping are scum motivated.

Why can't you be clearer?

[TierShift]

Josh IGMEOY

VOTE: wolfy

Bbt you made a good post for once, good job.

[TierShift]

Trainz

Scripten, none of those points merit a scumread, even if all of them are correct. Except perhaps the sheeping while denying the sheeping, which is what I voted him for.

[TierShift]

Josh IGMEOY

VOTE: wolfy

Bbt you made a good post for once, good job.

It was a crap post - stop stirring

Nah I agree with that post mostly

BBT:

I do not appreciate that I'm suddenly "potential town" because I agree with you. What's with that? That's not a town-sided attitude to have. That's self-serving meta BS.

Hi fellow this is exactly what I thought when I saw BBT's 'scripten might be town' post.

[TierShift]

People who use the words certain and sure without guilties are lame.
Has not much to do with alignment, though. It only makes me want to trust their reads less.

Wolfy, I do not feel the same way you do regarding BBT pushing your read change as scummy. I think it is in fact scummy. You haven't explained why it isn't other than 'my vote wasn't for realz yo'. So please do.

[TierShift]

VOTE: Wolfy
Can't trust a wolf.

Yo what the fuck is this?

Wolfy I want an answer to my 181.

[TierShift]

I am actually out of ketchup. I'm not actually sad, I'm feeling pretty good. Yes I am. I think Wolfy is quick to call others scummy, but incredibly defensive on his own.

Sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep

If only I didn't like my current wolfy vote this much...

What are your other (scum) reads?

scripten, I think you are hunting for reads because you want to know who to NK. I don't think reads are good right now, and I'd like you to have to shoot in the dark.
This isn't my normal stance, I'll admit, but the question you are asking BBT right now seems like the same question you asked Vettrok. Since scum have to fabricate their reads, we're about one second from going into NP, and we still have players MIA.

At this point it probably won't do anyone any good to give reads until after the flip.

I simply disagree that scripten is scummy for poking for reads. As we're not yet having a lynch, I don't see the harm in letting people who are perceived scummy to out their reads.

[TierShift]

Nor with Asher giving reads, I presume.

[TierShift]

Hi wake. No offence, but I find most of your wall useless and I see you are drawing very little conclusions from all the facts that you sum up (IIoA!). Can you do a town/scum readslist?

Your 'assessment' of vettrock is just a crapoad of IIoA so I cannot agree or disagree. I myself have talked about the part where he talks who he'd NK, but the way you speak about it is based on how it should theoretically be instead of if it is alignment-indicative or not. Please keep that out of a readslist. As for my read on him, null. I want him to post more. I don't care too much for the mild aversion to the lynch either way.

I need to check on.josh to see if I'd like that wagon. I sure did before!

As for Asher, I've already said i found his 'RVS' vote scummy and I think that was where I was looking for a wagon today. But I like his 253 and I'm yet to decide if newbscum or newbtown.

Asher, I'm glad to see you're going to be more active. I asked for your reads. Can you provide them?
With all this stuff you're saying about vettrock, what is your read on him? Does 'uncomfortable with' mean scum to you?

[TierShift]

Jesus can you make your posts readable

[TierShift]

That last part on wake is not a towntell.

Who do you want to pursue today?

[TierShift]

That last part on wake is not a towntell.

Who do you want to pursue today?

Specifically because it's wake, or are you just saying "not in general"

Not in general.

I'll have more time for this game from now on and will start a reread (and hopefully finish it) tomorrow.

Scripten, I did in fact vote josh before. I haven't cobfronted him or wake yet because I want to go back to day 1, re-examine voting patterns and wagons and then make up my mind about preliminary reads. Afterwards I'll get to questioning others.

[TierShift]

I'll have more time for this game from now on and will start a reread (and hopefully finish it) tomorrow.

Literally same post

[TierShift]

Okay. Posting this as a reminder to get back atcha after vettrock posts.

[TierShift]

Good evening TierShift.

...

I'd like to talk with you, please. I need to get a better footing on your alignment this game. Your cooperation would be valued.

A very good day to you, Mr. wake. If you want to communicate with me, I'd like to see you cut down on post length. It's not hard.
However, only this time, I will address your wall at the end of my reread.

[TierShift]

Okay guys, first 3 pages.

You're really pushing this issue. You have to be scum.

Your questions were bad. How are they supposed to help you work out somebody's alignment? They were awful questions designed to look like you were prompting discussion and scum-hunting.

I'm so sure you're gonna flip scum.

I much dislike this post in the context of scripten being active and trying to find scumminess in all corners of the game. He might have done in a bad way, but this still is no reason to push him.

Hello everyone.
I've played with Wolfy and Clusk92 before.
VOTE: Shaded

This is fencesitting, still.

I read it and I'm not sure what to make of it so I threw something in other direction to see what develops,

To see what develops...from an RVS vote...are you serious?

I suggest you read it again and contribute something useful.

This comes off as tryhard and I must keep this in mind as possible buddy interaction.

errgh, My need to play this game interrupts my need for vengeance.

VOTE: scripten

That scummy push was scummy.

And josh is still completely wide of the mark. This sheep is bad bad.

Upon rereading I get a very strong townread on scripten who pushes his thoughts hard, seems to tread back but then defends his reasoning again. No appeasing and no overdefensiveness, in fact, just explanation of his thoughts. I like 47 a lot (it is actually the first time I read it!), the rationale behind voting BBT is solid.

[TierShift]

Town or scum overreaction?

Vettrock, you missed this question re scripten vs bbt. Please answer.

Anyway, BBT actually seems relatively town to me at the moment despite the butting of heads. You, on the other hand, are actively setting off my scum radar for the reasons that drove me to put my FoS on you before along with your reactions. Let's make this vote actually work toward something.

Where/how did you get your BBT townread?

At least we've had a few more players posting now. So, let's try this again.

Vettrock:

If you were scum, who would you target for a night kill assuming the day ended right now with a no lynch?

If the Day ended right now and I was scum it is hard to say who I would nightkill. I think we need a bit more information, as at this point I'd just have to pick a random person. A nightkill should be the person most believed to be town, or a person that is particularly threatening to you. The problem with the second option, is it points the finger at you unless they also fall under the first catagory. As there isn't anyone who is generally accepted as town at this point, I'd have to go random.

I hate this is the only thing vettrock contributes at this point.

[
The bottom line comes down to whether or not I was actually sheeping BBT or if I had my own reasons to think that you are scum.

You called me a sheep

, I had my own reasons that I have expressed. The reasons have nothing to do with BBT, and everything to do with your play. That is not sheeping. And you are just pushing buzzwords.

I recall you yourself saying that you were sheeping BBT (your original sheep, remember?). Now you're saying you're not. What is it?

So to contribute to the Josh/Scripten debate:

I can follow most of Josh's argument with the exception of the color coded one which wasn't clear until I dug back into the original post to see what was added and what wasn't. Scripten seems to be bending stuff a lot more, but at this point I think its more being defensive that necessarily scummy. He is trying to bend things to support his view. Scum definately do this as they have to make things up, but confirmation bias and bending stuff due to confirmation bias definately affects town as well.

So sightly scumminess to Scripten, but I'm not ready to call him scum yet.

Bad analysis!

[
Nah. It says I was reading him as pretty!

I wasn't. It was a vote to get a reaction. What I got was next to nothing. He just carried on bickering with Scripten. That tells me town.

You may have been about to get a reaction;

Can you please give more of an explanation? What did you decide was alignment indicative?

But you chose to ignore this for some reason. Why is that?

Your logic and thoughts are not consistent so far. You were very fence-sitty at the beginning as well. I think that was an opportunistic vote that you realized you couldn't explain without it looking like you were sheeping so you retracted it.

Then you immediately OMGUS me. Why do you think I'm scum exactly?

I'm almost certain you're scum here.

I llike this post a lot, still.

I'm ending my reread for today. Vettrock and josh look bad.

[TierShift]

Teirshift,

Spoiler: another spoiler because it's fun to make spoilers and most of theinformation is already in the game

Concerning Scripten

We're barely off the first page, and he's already coming up with scum tells that look more contrived than convincing.

I don't know what your definition of sheeping is, but my definition is "following another player for the sake of following another player, without having your own ideas." At any point does it appear that I do not have my own ideas?
I tried to make a joke about being called a sheep, as though my comments weren't original enough by scripten's standards. It seems like he has pretty lofty standards, or he's just trying to press anything that can get traction. What do you think about that?

You know, all those pages and I still don't know what the whole point of the sheeping thing was except to call me scummy over something rediculous. I agree'd with BBT at the beginning of the game, if you want to call that a sheep, call it a sheep whatever. But that's a pretty weak case.

You just repeated and slightly altered BBT's arguments. I call that a sheep, yes. But sheeping is not scummy by itself. Sheeping bad reasoning is. I have trouble seeing two town players reach that same conclusion. It is easy to imagine scum seeing a case being pushed against someone and thinking 'hey, I can do that!'.

[TierShift]

I wouldn't expect you to bus your partner right now. When you made your first post restating your case on Josh it looked like you were trying to keep a counter-wagon going to oppose the Wolfy one I was starting.

However, you changed that and voted for him. Therefore, right now, you're probably town and Wolfy is scum.

Your townread on scripten was based on his willingness to vote scum (wolfy). Now that this scum flipped town, does that affect your scripten read?

Scripten, I don't think your suspected towniness had as much to do with your actions as they did with wolfy's.

Solid town? Seriously?

Wolfy, I think it's fair that you used the tone of my response to decide on my alignment, you didn't answer the question about what made you decide on alignment in the first place.

And I can see a vote on Mr.E, but there really isn't any pressure on him, or much interactions to justify a vote, so right now your vote looks terrible, can you explain it. Maybe I'll do that PbPA and see what he has to say about it. But later, when I get off work.

Noting that josh abstained from commenting on the thing that mattered at the time: the wolfy wagon.

VOTE: Wolfy
Can't trust a wolf.

I might need to do some meta research on this guy.

Jesus Christ. I don't believe you're this bad at mafia. Like, I just don't.

Think about it. Think about the question and what my response could be. Think who that might help, think who gets to use that information over N1...Jesus Christ.

PEdit - Wolfy,

stop insulting me. I don't know why you're making this personal.

[TierShift]

Finished day 1.

And this reads list hasn't changed/updated in nearly 4 pages worth of posts? Even after all your unvoting and voting? Even after saying I am scummier than scum despite apparently town-reading me?

Come on man, you just put the final nail in your own coffin.

Mr. Ree, hammer awayyyyyyyy!

I'm not overly sad at the fast hammer, but I don't like you pushing for a hammer this hard. I don't call you scummy for it, but it's something in your playstyle you might want to fix.

Calling for a hammer at this point is scummy in my book. BBT's claims that Wolfy is certain scum is scummy provided Wolfy flips town. I don't see what the town gains by lynching at this point. Personally, I think it takes a bit longer to get good reads on people. Maybe I don't have the Uber skills of all of you, but knowing with "certainty" that someone will flip scum is something that only scum can say.

While I'm not for dragging things out unnecessarily, lynching at this point is anti-town.

Complaining about wagon without contributing

I'm not convinced Wolfy is scum. The problem is everyone on the wagon can't be scum since there are only two scum. I think rushing to this lynch is incredibly anti-town.

Same comment.

[TierShift]

I've not been following the drama between Josh and Scripten. His content and engagement with the game makes me think Town, initially. The wordiness makes my eyes bleed. I'll very tentatively put him in my Townlist. So now I'd like to know what his reads are; especially his reads on Vettrock.
Do you aim to go after Scripten today, Josh?

Can you elaborate?

Not much to work with, because many of the posts are so short. What do you think of Josh_B, Vettrock, or an Asher wagon today, TS? If you read my bit on Vettrock down below, do you think it feels like he's playing safe and guardedly? Why did you change from Josh to Wolfy? I'm having difficulty reading TS, because he hasn't done much to make me believe or distrust him. I do want to know if he follows my train of thought on Vettrock.

Incidentally, I have the wagons you're talking about as my biggest scumreads at this point.

I think vettrock is not playing at all and everything he has said, feels off.

I changed to wolfy because I was less certain of joshscum than of wolfyscum. If you want elaboration on that, feel free to ask.

As it is right now, I have a tentative Townread on you. Your posts ring with reason, but questions abound, and I'd like them to be answered in full, if it's not too much trouble. It would certainly help me feel you're a member of Town.

What posts of his 'ring with reason'? Is it only because of this 'reason' you have a townread on him?

[TierShift]

I have no doubt there's at least one member of Scum on Wolfy's wagon.

Wy do you think so and who is that member, most likely?

Asher, please share your thoughts on Vettrock.

Vettrock is kind of a mystery to me. He hasn't done anything outwardly scummy, but not a lot of pro-town moves either. He seems to be mostly sitting on the fence to me.

At least we've had a few more players posting now. So, let's try this again.

Vettrock:

If you were scum, who would you target for a night kill assuming the day ended right now with a no lynch?

If the Day ended right now and I was scum it is hard to say who I would nightkill. I think we need a bit more information, as at this point I'd just have to pick a random person. A nightkill should be the person most believed to be town, or a person that is particularly threatening to you. The problem with the second option, is it points the finger at you unless they also fall under the first catagory. As there isn't anyone who is generally accepted as town at this point, I'd have to go random.

Vettrock doesn't really give an answer, only that his hypothetical night kill would have to be random or the most believed to be town. On the one hand, vettrock's the only player who hasn't been voted against yet, and his only vote was on shaded, who posted basically nothing before being replaced by you. He seemed pretty convinced that wolfy wasn't scum, and that lynching him was anti-town. To me it seems like vettrock has been skirting on the edge rather than taking a stance. His opinions on wolfy didn't really matter because his vote wasn't needed to lynch.

I'm not feeling comfortable with vettrock. If he was convinced about wolfy's innocence, he could have fought harder. If he thought he was scummy, he could have stated his intent to hammer as well. It seems convenient that he could slip past day 1 with no suspicion and avoided the wagon.

I like where this guy is looking.
[

[
I'm willing to provide reads, but I'd prefer to wait until vettrock comments on what's been said today. If he doesn't show up, I can still make a list.

Are you done waiting? Who else do you think is scummy?

The scumminess of the wagon outwieghed the scumminess of the player.

What made the wagon scummy?

From my POV, scripten looked very opportunistic. Although at this point I will admit that I'm probably in a confbias loop of his behavior.

Why do you think you are in confbias? How does that affect your read on scripten?

[TierShift]

Spoiler: happy days, wake

I'll bold responses, since I'm on my phone.

Good evening TierShift.

...

I'd like to talk with you, please. I need to get a better footing on your alignment this game. Your cooperation would be valued.

Please note this, everyone.

I'm noting my cooperation would be valued.

Your vote on Mr. Ree in (6) makes me wonder why it was cast. It looks like an OMGUS, which is inherently anti-Town, or so the majority says. It didn't escape me how you voted for Ree in (6), and then asked BBT in (9) if he thought Ree's vote was random. If you don't think Ree's vote was random, then you should be able to explain why you thought otherwise. Though your questions in (9) pangs of Townish curiosity, your (6) leaves me without complete understanding.

all right, an ongoing game prompted me to believe mr_ree's vote wasn't random. I can't explain further. However, seeing as BBT probably did not know about the rationale for me not believing it was random, I wondered why

he

thought it wasn't random.

(13) is difficult to weigh. Questions are good for illumination and discussion. You may not feel his questions needed to be answered, but the content derived from the discussion revolving said questions can prove fruitful. In fact part of our discussion involves them even now.

the questions were utterly useless and I felt that throwing out a snarky remark about that would be better for discussion purposes than staying silent or answering the questions. I was proven right.

(15) and (16) leave me wondering why you made them. There should have been a reason, yet I'm not seeing it. Your explanation would be appreciated.

scripten was being lame and BBT's 14 was lame too.

Your (18) rings Townish, yet it's generic and safe, in my humble opinion. It does not look like Ree was the best wagon, per your (21). I would like some answers from you on this.

I don't know what you want me to say here. I was mostly thinking scripten's questions were going nowhere. So I called for a ree wagon.

The grammatical errors in (24) probably mean nothing. It also doesn't seem you are using the function which stops and allows you to preview/edit your post when someone's posted before you've finished typing. That, too, likely means nothing, although knowing these subtleties isn't inherently detrimental. Scum doesn't have Daystart, so in (24) it can't be said that you and BBT were Scum partners who spoke privately before the Day started, which could have explained you two thinking the same thing around the same time. I'm not certain what to think of (24). Same with (25).

Since I'm not a native speaker, I'd like you to tell me which grammatical mistakes I made. This paragraph seems of little relevance, though.

Content is and continues to be generated because those questions were put forth and discussed (30). Again it pangs Townish when you ask BBT for the scum motivation in pushing that issue. You can never tell, apropos (32). He could be an alt. (34) and (40) begets indifference. For the third time, TierShift says something that reads Townish in (42). At this point I am Townreading him a little.

TierShift, maybe you should not have acted so hastily when you cast your vote for Vettrock in (46) for, as you call it, unnecessary prolongation of RVS. Him posting a supposedly RVS vote in (38) isn't grounds for a serious vote, especially when I've played in games when the person's first post, a random vote, was after the #100 mark. Let's discuss this further, because this latest action is stirring up doubt in your alignment.

I saw the first thing I considered scummy, so I voted it. Trying to return to RVS is scummy, whether you like it or not. Not very, but enough to cast a vote. Also done with faint hopes vettrock would find it interesting enough to talk about.

Please share what (53) is regarding. An elaboration on (55) would help, because it can be difficult understanding what you're meaning at times. I mean no disrespect by that.

Can you stop being overly polite, please?
53 was a question aimed at vettrock, 55 regarded scripten thinking me and bbt were buddies for something he didn't find too strong a tell himself.

I notice in (65) that you didn't vote Josh_B near the timeframe when he voted for Vettrock and then for Scripten. Josh's (61) was obviously a random vote, yet your accusation of him prolonging RVS unnecessarily doesn't materialize. At that point your vote is still on Vettrock, and you do indeed have time to change it from him to Josh, since by your logic when it comes to the unnecessary prolongation of RVS, #61 must be a worse offense than #38.

Josh wasn't prolonging RVS since he read the game and voted seriously immediately after. He actually contrivuted while vettrock failed to do so.

If you would, I'd like to know what your view is on Scumtells, per your (78). In your words overreaction and counterpushing aren't Scumtells. I wonder if you think hypocrisy is.

It all depends on context. There are very, very few scumtells that can be applied at any time. Hypocrisy can be a playstyle thing and isn't necessarily scummy. Same goes for the other two, although a bit less. However, if you're using these to further your own cause and not as genuine paranoia, I take it as a scumtell.

I need to rest. Will be back tomorrow to rejoin you on this. Goodnight everyone.

sure, come again. What's with this focus on me, anyway?

[TierShift]

Mr. Ree clearly delayed the hammer so that discussion could take place. All you did to try and prevent the lynch was 236 and 240, and that was mostly about how anti-town it was to lynch Wolfy. Not actually trying to defend Wolfy himself.

Also, in 137 you eluded to Scripten being slightly scummy but you weren't ready to call him scum yet. You instead decided to leave your vote on Shaded, an inactive. Why was that?

VOTE: Vettrock

Goodposting

I considered that wolfy might be scum. But him not being scum means something different than him actually being scum. I've considered the off wagoners. Myself, Shaded, and Vettrock. In order for both scum to be off the wagon, it has to be vettrock and wake. Both seem town to me, so scum is probably not off the wagon.

VOTE: asher

Why do vettrock and wake seem town to you?

In response to wake88 asking for opinions on the tiershift post

Spoiler:

Your vote on Mr. Ree in (6) makes me wonder why it was cast. It looks like an OMGUS, which is inherently anti-Town, or so the majority says. It didn't escape me how you voted for Ree in (6), and then asked BBT in (9) if he thought Ree's vote was random. If you don't think Ree's vote was random, then you should be able to explain why you thought otherwise. Though your questions in (9) pangs of Townish curiosity, your (6) leaves me without complete understanding.

To me, tiershift's vote looks as random as the rest of them, with his comment being a small jab at mr_ree. I think mr_ree's vote was random, but it looks like tier/bbt/scripten were just trying to get a discussion started. Neither post seems scummy or town to me.

(13) is difficult to weigh. Questions are good for illumination and discussion. You may not feel his questions needed to be answered, but the content derived from the discussion revolving said questions can prove fruitful. In fact part of our discussion involves them even now.

The questions were very generic, but tier or bbt could have at least tried to answer them. On the other hand, discussion did get started so the questions achieved their goal.

(15) and (16) leave me wondering why you made them. There should have been a reason, yet I'm not seeing it. Your explanation would be appreciated. Your (18) rings Townish, yet it's generic and safe, in my humble opinion. It does not look like Ree was the best wagon, per your (21). I would like some answers from you on this. The grammatical errors in (24) probably mean nothing. It also doesn't seem you are using the function which stops and allows you to preview/edit your post when someone's posted before you've finished typing. That, too, likely means nothing, although knowing these subtleties isn't inherently detrimental. Scum doesn't have Daystart, so in (24) it can't be said that you and BBT were Scum partners who spoke privately before the Day started, which could have explained you two thinking the same thing around the same time. I'm not certain what to think of (24). Same with (25).

Most of these posts seem to be for shits and giggles, rather than for discussion. Nothing really to be gained here.

Content is and continues to be generated because those questions were put forth and discussed (30). Again it pangs Townish when you ask BBT for the scum motivation in pushing that issue. You can never tell, apropos (32). He could be an alt. (34) and (40) begets indifference. For the third time, TierShift says something that reads Townish in (42). At this point I am Townreading him a little.

I think I'd agree with the slight town read. 42 seems to be an attempt to also get vettrock more involved with the conversation, which doesn't really happen.

TierShift, maybe you should not have acted so hastily when you cast your vote for Vettrock in (46) for, as you call it, unnecessary prolongation of RVS. Him posting a supposedly RVS vote in (38) isn't grounds for a serious vote, especially when I've played in games when the person's first post, a random vote, was after the #100 mark. Let's discuss this further, because this latest action is stirring up doubt in your alignment.

You have played in games with random votess past post #100, I have not, and I can't really speak for anyone else here. Vettrock's vote to me seems less random, more like he's trying to create a conflict/throw a wrench in the works. Still early enough in the game that I don't think either of their votes means much in terms of alignment.

Please share what (53) is regarding. An elaboration on (55) would help, because it can be difficult understanding what you're meaning at times. I mean no disrespect by that. I notice in (65) that you didn't vote Josh_B near the timeframe when he voted for Vettrock and then for Scripten. Josh's (61) was obviously a random vote, yet your accusation of him prolonging RVS unnecessarily doesn't materialize. At that point your vote is still on Vettrock, and you do indeed have time to change it from him to Josh, since by your logic when it comes to the unnecessary prolongation of RVS, #61 must be a worse offense than #38.

53 seems to be in regards to 51, but that's just a guess. I can't see the point of 55, so that confuses me as well. 65 seems to be questioning what about the push was scummy? Given that ~5 hours happen between josh's rvs and tier commenting, it looks like he skipped over 61 for 63 because 63 was an actual vote. Josh replaced the rvs rather quickly, whereas vettrock never changed his vote.

If you would, I'd like to know what your view is on Scumtells, per your (78). In your words overreaction and counterpushing aren't Scumtells. I wonder if you think hypocrisy is.

I'd disagree with tiershift here. While I understand that overreaction and counterpushing don't necessarily point out scum, as they are reactions of anyone who feels they are being targeted or unfairly treated, I think they can also be used by scum to appear more townish. I can't speak for his view on hypocrisy.

I think I got everything.

I'm not happy with what asher chose to respond to.

[TierShift]

Okay, here is where I stand. I have strong townreads on scripten and BBT. Wake is tbd and the rest I consider scummy, but they can't all be scum.

Asher is just scummy as fuck in general. I mustn't forget to meta him. I want to vote him a lot.
But there is also josh who has over the course of the game taken nothing but convenient stances who now is voting for him. Josh seems to be defending the off-wagoners for reasons I can't see if he were town. His buddies are very likely in there, if he's scum.
Vettrock I want gone too since I can very easily see him being paired up wirh either asher or josh.

I have outstanding questions to all three of them and I'd like them to answer these asap.

Let's see what this does.

VOTE: josh

[TierShift]

UNVOTE:

I need to sort my reads first.

[TierShift]

Josh, the wolfy wagon was where the focus was at that moment. Are you denying that?

[TierShift]

Bbt please answer the question.

[TierShift]

Correct. My initial town-read on Scripten was

based

on him joining the Wolfy wagon. However, the way he joined it (almost with no reasoning and very little encourgament makes me think he is town). Then he questioned my town-read on him. Add in that I feel his 268 is pretty town, all of these things make me feel like he is more likely to be town than scum.

There's no need to make the text bigger, thanks.

Does this all offset the extreme scumminess that scripten was radiating? The enormous RVS case he pushed? Your certainness he was scum?

[TierShift]

Josh, the wolfy wagon was where the focus was at that moment. Are you denying that?

are you asking if the focus was on the wagon itself? I haven't considered that before. So I say no. The focus was on wolfy's behavior, not the wagon itself.

All right, that's just semantics. Fact is that this guy gets pushed to L-2 very rapidly yet you totally abstain from commenting on that, while casually questioning wolfy. That's scum behaviour, letting a wagon form on town, appearing against it, but not actually acting as such.

The scripten push is totally lame. Can you talk about wake and vettrock being town?

[TierShift]

@349: Yeah, I saw you stating they were town, now the explanation.

I'll scratch together why I think vet is scum later on, if you still want it then. Wake is null, as I've said. I've yet to see him take stances.

@350: okay, my question was bad. Doesn't change the conclusion I reach about you wrt wolfy wagon.

@BBT stop being dumb, thanks.

[TierShift]

Spoiler: bbt read plz

You keep pushing the idea that the wagon should be analyzed for scum. Indeed, it usually would and I would usually do that too. However, if you're scum, you're banking on people analyzing a wagon that was on a townie. I mean, how can there be no scum on a townie mislynch right? But, I feel it was an all town lynch. Killing one townie on the wagon leaves a narrower pool for town to lynch from again because that would be the natural progression for the game.

I could be wrong. Hell, there could be two scum on that wagon. I just don't see it though. I've never seen somebody act so scummy who flipped town. Never. The fact that neither you or Vettrock even considered that Wolfy could be scum really doesn't sit right with me.

I considered that wolfy might be scum. But him not being scum means something different than him actually being scum. I've considered the off wagoners. Myself, Shaded, and Vettrock. In order for both scum to be off the wagon, it has to be vettrock and wake. Both seem town to me, so scum is probably not off the wagon.

VOTE: asher

Josh_B: You seem to think that wolfy's play was ambiguously scummy. That is, you felt that he was just playing poorly as town rather than acting scummily. That doesn't really explain why you didn't try to stop his lynch and, despite not voting for him, didn't seem to have much of a problem with it. I mean, you're acting now as if you were campaigning for him being town, which is just objectively untrue.

How the fuck was I supposed to stop his lynch? I didn't know what his alignment was. I know what it was now, that it. I didn't campaign for him as town, and I'm sorry if I am comming off like that. There are two different points in time that we are talking about and perhaps what I'm saying about each point in time is getting mixed together.

Before the Lynch: I don't know if Wolfy is town or not.
After the Lynch: Wolfy was/is town. I know it for sure, and I'm going to treat it that way moving forward.

.

I'm having a hard time responding to what you are saying because we don't agree on the premises.
You say that I was convinced that Wolfy was town, even though I wasn't. Your continued questions are based on me being convinced that Wolfy was town during DP1. Particularly "why didn't you try harder to stop the lynch?" And my answers is

"I didn't know if he was or wasn't town."

I'm sorry that I wasn't utterly convinced that he was scum, the way you were. I also think that you are trying to push this issue that I should have been convinced one way or the other, or that I was convinced of something that I wasn't.

And fuck.. I'm losing posts.

[TierShift]

Ok I forgot the part where he talks about that reaction test as alignment-indicative.

Lol, I'm sorry. Carry on.

[TierShift]

I'll be blunt, I feel like Josh is digging himself into a hole here. I'm with scripten and bbt. I'm not liking how vettrock only comes in to defend him.

VOTE: Josh_B

Yo I asked for a readslist. Is josh scummier than vettrock?

Teirshift, that was the case that BBT was trying to push.
I gave some consideration to the possibility that wolfy was town, and now he's the towniest town to ever town in this game.

BBT/Scripten= scum team.

I'll move my vote to either. It is on scripten now. Wake, Tiershift,

Asher

, Vettrock, who do you want to lynch first?

pedit: Asher?

No not really, your reads are bad and you should feel bad.

I think Josh is town, wake is null, Asher is moderately scummy, Tiershift is slightly town. BBT and Scripten moderately scummy. Yes I realize this is three scum. I'll pick BBT for now, but I would consider either of the other two as well.

Are you at least going to lay down a vote? Or... you know, do something other than comment on the situation and sit back. Come on, if you're not scum, then help the town, please? your play has been poor and lazy all game.

VOTE: BBT
I meant to put down the BBT vote, but I guess I missed it (hence the "I'll pick BBT for now")

I'll admit I haven't been as active as I should be.

Yo are you caught up? I asked you a few questions. Can you give me

some

sort of reads?

[TierShift]

So vettrock, if I get it right, your reads are:
The people who aren't pushing josh are town and the ones pushing him are scum?

[TierShift]

Scripten & BBT: I've got a moderate town read on these two, especially because they're focused on generating discussion and scumhunting. Then again, could be a scum pair, never know. But I would be much more surprised to find them as scum versus josh/vettrock.

Why do you think they could be a pair? Why not together with other players?

[TierShift]

Current developments are interesting, I can get behind a BBT vote.
I'm going to abstain from commenting for reasons that will be obvious.

[TierShift]

You're some sort of scummy lately

I'm just saying you're not to be forgotten.

[TierShift]

Yeah I was.

But I feel your hostility towards josh has something to it..

Josh what do you think?

[TierShift]

Brofist scripten

Huge brofist

[TierShift]

VOTE: josh

[TierShift]

Scripten will probably explain when he gets in.

[TierShift]

Because you're scum. I'm done.

[TierShift]

Ttm about bbt

[TierShift]

It means talk to me

Me and scripten think you are town bbt

[TierShift]

I am town.

You have outside communication in this game?

Nothing of the kind. Look through scripten's past few posts and look for any irregularities.

[TierShift]

Did you see my crumb back scripten?

[TierShift]

The italics annoyed me

so I quoted the post to see if there was anything to it
lol

you should work on your crumbing scripten josh could ahve seen that.

You comfy with hammer bbt?

[TierShift]

please.

[TierShift]

scripten quote my post directly following yours and you'll see.

[TierShift]

Huh. Apparently italics marks without text between them get removed *shrug*

[TierShift]

There is no crumb. Apparently.

[TierShift]

Yeah, just hammer. Either of you.

[TierShift]

josh offered to self-hammer.

[TierShift]

unexpected.

[TierShift]

Asher, outstanding questions to you in my iso.

[TierShift]

Nhmm ok.

You're still weird.

What do you think about the reaction test?

[TierShift]

I see the crumb, but I'm not sure what he was trying to get out of the alignment test. I understand that to mean he was shifting his vote to BBT to see his reaction, rather than because he really thought he was scummy. I don't see how that makes anyone scum or not scum. The only thing would be that Josh then shifted is vote to BBT, hoping to build a wagon apparently. I don't think that necessarily makes him scum.

It literally goes like this:
Josh says: hey I'm pretty sure scripten is scum!
Scripten says: hey uh BBT is scum
I say: yeah bbt uh looks good
Josh goes: lol I was wrong scripten isn't scum BBT is
Josh: intent to hammer

You really don't see how that is scum?

UNVOTE:

Not because I'm not sure josh is scum. Just to see wtf wake and vettrock are doing

[TierShift]

huh.

Josh, what was it that prompted your read on scripten and BBT to change?

[TierShift]

So josh, your case is two people pushing the same points?

[TierShift]

Nevermind, I'm done with this day. Dragging this out any longer will just lead to apathy.

VOTE: josh

Scripten, please hammer.

[TierShift]

So josh, your case is two people pushing the same points?

the points are rehearsed points against two different people.

And you've seen scumteams exhibit this behaviour before?

[TierShift]

If you were Scum, what would you be doing?

Knock it off with the self-meta-probing questions already

Josh should claim if he's at L-1. Does that sound reasonable? Same with BBT (assuming he's at L-1, too).

Ewwwwwwww
Let me break down why I do NOT like this post.

First, Bbt is under no threat of getting lynched.
Second and most important, Josh claimed VT already. Things would be different if he had claimed a PR, but at this point asking BBT for a claim will not help us decide a lynch and only will give info to the scumteam where possible PR's lie.

Nicely played off with a parallel to josh, though.

[TierShift]

Tiershift: Let's say Josh_B flips town. Who's scum?

Uh, I'm pretty sure he's flipping scum.

Wake's last post pinged

hard

. So poooossibly him with asher or vettrock.

Josh did claim. He's a Vanilla Townie. (Again, correct me if I'm wrong, please.)

He's not asking both to claim. He's saying "josh claimed, so bbt should claim".

[TierShift]

Wake, how does BBT claiming aid us?

[TierShift]

Ooh, this is proving to be more fruitful than I thought it would be!

[TierShift]

Okay wake, let's try it like this:
If bbt claims VT, how is this day going to end?
If he claims earl, same question.
If he claims cop/doc, same question.

[TierShift]

Rolefishing denied, wake.

[TierShift]

I'm feeling overwhelmed with all the posts to sort through.

You should make it a point to check in more often.

[TierShift]

Just don't lurk then whine at the amount of posts, I hate that.

I'm not going to answer questions aimed at other players, if that's what you're asking.

[TierShift]

Wake pls

[TierShift]

Pls

[TierShift]

Fucking read

If I were commenting on the questions I'd have done so

[TierShift]

Fucking read

If I were commenting on the questions I'd have done so

But why don't you when asked?

I don't think Scumhunting is a one-way street. You may ask questions, but you'll be asked questions, too.

What message do you think I'm going to infer when you fight and refuse to answer my questions? Do you have something to hide?

I've responded to your extremely long post before, so don't even insinuate I'm not helping you. You haven't even referenced back to that.

I don't have anything useful to cmment on those questions, so I don't.

You're annoying me, wake.

[TierShift]

Okay I think I like vettrock a little better now maybe

[TierShift]

I'm VT.

Wake is probably scum.

I'm gonna look for crumbs.

[TierShift]

Wait. I missed the last 3 pages.

Wake is right.

VOTE: scripten

[TierShift]

I'm thinking I'm the only one who saw BBT's actual crumb?

[TierShift]

Thanks, but I need to improve. I've been playing for years, and there's still so many subtle things to improve upon.

Definitely not casting any votes in LyLo early on ever again. I figured if Scripten was Scum I could try and preempt his attempt to have me mislynched.

That's a good thing to always remember!

[TierShift]

Thoughts about the setup:

I know the setup is very similar to the old newbie setup, but especially as scum you notice that the four possible setups aren't equal in balance. The setups with cop are much better for town than the ones without. Doc and Earl don't differ much in strength, unless you get TWO succesful protects, which is highly unlikely. Other than that, they're just named townies.

At the start of day 2, I thought asher would be the lynch of the day. Had he been lynched, a doc would hardly have been an issue, while failing to.hit a cop N2 would pretty much mean game over.

Even on day 3 if we had missed the cop at night and instead killed wake, BBT would have the scumteam pegged. While having done a good job as scum and having mislynched twice. A doc wouldn't have meant trouble.

So uh, maybe try to make the different setups more balanced if you want to run it again. Well modded tho!

[TierShift]

Thoughts about the play:

We really didn't have too hard a time as scum. I think asher was obvscum, displaying pretty much any newbscum tell I know (lack of scumhunting, being on every wagon, parroting, not explaining votes, etc.), but he managed to stick at it and convince a few people he wasn't the scummiest guy around. Kudos for your day 3 play asher, claiming Earl was good there and keeping alive the paranoia in Wake was smart. I think getting rid of mr_ree N1 was a good move since he was probably the one distrusting us most.

I don't think the town did a super bad job, though. Wolfy and josh were both legit scummy and decent lynches. I think scripten scumhunted well and did a good job of being town. Vettrock pointed out scum probably would have been on the two mislynch wagons, which was a good thought and town could have profited from listening to him. He was a bit too silent, though.

On the crumbing:

Both scripten's and BBT's crumbing turned out to be huge boons to the scumteam, securing a mislynch and a cop NK, respectively. Crumbing is dangerous. I'm not saying it was stupid to crumb, but think about

why

and for

whom

you are crumbing. I think scripten's crumb wasn't bad and it was just a case of wrong place at the wrong time for josh, but I think BBT's claim was definitely locateable for scum (it was) and he moreover said I was 100%town somewhere. Which is not smart to say as a cop when having an inno on someone else. So think about crumbing.

General tips to town:

Try to work with people who are willing to work with you

Josh's reaction to being at L-1 was

not

a scum reaction. Don't ever regard last words as 'caught scum is caught', however beautiful your reaction test (I thought it was actually a smart reaction test!). Josh was still scumhunting and people like scripten and BBT should at least have tried working with him.

Don't make it an ego fight

Don't take attacks personal, keep an open mind and think about the guys that are slipping under the radar during the argument.

Night Kill Analysis

A biggie! Mr_ree was suspecting asher heavily.

Don't quickvote in LyLo

And profit.

[TierShift]

I didn't give in-depth feedback to everyone because I don't like giving unsolicited advice to a single person. If you want it, please ask, happy to provide it!

I'd like feedback too and especially what I can improve on.

Wake, do you want feedback by pm or in-thread?

[TierShift]

@Saulres:

I think the whole wagon on Wolfy may have been town. If there was scum on it, it's one of Tier or Asher; leaning Asher.

That was the crumb. First post of day 2. BBT later said he townread me from the start and he was townreading me.more than scripten day 1, so he got an inno on scripten.

[TierShift]

That was not a purposeful crumb? >>

[TierShift]

Okay, BBT, I suck at giving positive feedback, jsyk. Here we go:

1. You're not a scumhunting god.

Your reads are not the be-all, end-all. Your reads weren't accurate and with you jumping so fast from one read to another, it is annoying to read how 'sure' you are in your reads. You should push your reads like a normal person; you should know your reads change a lot and your posting style should reflect that. Look at other players' reads. Try to adgust yours based on them.

2. Listen to everyone.

Yes, even to your scumread josh or the lurker vettrock. Everyone. Readjust opnions based on what they say. You can weigh the stuff your townreads say heavier, but be sure that they're not just manipulating you into scumreading others.

3. If everyone agrees with you, something is wrong.

This is true in almost all cases. Unless the scumteam is reeeaally weak and obvious, keep in mind that scum would like town to push their wagons for them.

4. Let the game flow.

No need in pushing every wagon super hard by yourself, look at reactions provoked by wagons and talk to other people about wagons, instead of tunnelling.

See, all negative

Hope this helps!

[TierShift]

Conciseness

Wake, the most important thing you should be working on is choosing the subjects of your focus and conciseness. I see a lot of posts discussing trivial things, like RVS behaviour and thoughts when making certain posts.

As a rule of thumb, it's a good idea to only ask questions if the answer will help you to better form a read on someone. So do it when a post seems weird, out of context or when you don't understand a vote, for example. I'd say at least 3/4 of your questions only helped to clutter up the thread.

Don't answer or ask questions over multiple paragraphs. Keep it short. Walls stink. They are toxic to any town.

Reasons for voting

Don't focus on people antagonising you. I've seen you do this in multiple games. They're not scummy for antagonising you; in fact, they aren't afraid of you voting them and thus more likely town. Your vote on me was for crap reasons (saying somethkng fluffy) and I don't know what your rationale for voting scripten was, but it was a bad vote. The guys disagreeing with you are probably more town than the guys agreeing with you. Important to remember!

Don't quickvote in LyLo

Profit

Even worse because claims weren't out yet, I think.

[TierShift]

You pegged one of the scum early on, wake? Didn't see it.

Oh and if someone repeats a question, give a 1 sentence answer and link the post with the full answer. Link, not quote.

[TierShift]

Oh and wake, another thing: avoid arguments.

I took adding ree mostly as a non-cop slip

[TierShift]

And an addendum for BBT: don't call non-inno's a 100% townread as cop.

[TierShift]

Damn it now I'm mad.

I DID see BBT's crumb but I didn't believe it because Scripten was Scummy in my book.

Cop results>anything

And if scripten turned out to be scum, you could have blamed BBT

This was the one, TS.

Aw I kinda feel really bad for Wake. You could tell at the beginning of the game that he was really trying to improve (and doing a good job at it). He even had the correct scumteam nailed in one of his posts. But now he's second guessing himself.

Apparently I meant Bulge instead.

Where did you peg us, then?

[TierShift]

Oh and wake, another thing: avoid arguments.

I took adding ree mostly as a non-cop slip

That's tough.

People be calling you Scummy for anything: even ridiculous things or making them up.

I don't know how to parry that without arguing it.

Say: 'that's ridiculous, you're making this up. Can you point to where I said this?'

Instead of getting into an argument, the other player will now show you how he interpreted your post wrongly and then you can say: 'but I meant this'. From the other player's reaction you can even get a read on him.

Avoid arguments at all costs, really.

[TierShift]

About conciseness, let's take an example. Your very first post about BBT is lengthy.

I would change it into this and not lose valuable info:
BBT seems to certain in his reads; it comes off as fake, especially when they change so much. When scripten jumps onto wolfy, he follows him.

In fact, scripten and BBT follow much of the same trajectory and I'm having a hard time reading them.
BBT, I'm interested in hearing about your strong scumread on scripten flipping to a townread. Can you give full reads too?

That's about 5x shorter and omits very little, if anything of relevance.
I don't know what you're talking about with: 'can you show me players who play like this'.

[TierShift]

You shouldn't deflect attacks, you should invalidate them. Explain why the attack is wrong. Don't fight the attacker. If they make a fair point, acknowledge it. Refute what's wrong. Then continue with your scum targets.

[TierShift]

And there probably will be players purposefully antagonising you. Ignore them.

[TierShift]

Well, uh, I guess I qualify as one of those players? When someone makes a faulty argument against me, I try to pick out the holes in their reasoning. If the one attacking me is town, they'll probably realise their logic is faulty.

[TierShift]

I don't have other examples for you atm, wake. Talk to me when you got your ass into another argument.

Why did you vote scripten, btw?

[TierShift]

Not much. Just the same thing I said to BBT: if everyone's agreeing with you, something is wrong.

And there's useful info in the post directed at the whole town.

I thought you were a big newb at first with the stpuid questions, but you did a good job afterwards. You should probably have listened to josh before he was dying.

[TierShift]

That doesn't translate in a super strong scumread.

[TierShift]

Tiershift, I thought your continued FOS on Asher throughout was epic when I found out that you and him were on the scum team together. It started with a "WTF is this?" that grew very steadily and felt really townish. It wasn't the all of a sudden, "look at me I'm adding my partner into my scumreads so I can WK off of him later, lol" that I'm used to.

Thanks. I hate bussing but couldn't add him into my townreads, so I tried to go for the best.

[TierShift]

Tbh I don't lie as scum

I pretend I'm town and then am honest to what that town-me would feel

The only thing I lie about is my read on my buddy