Mini 1604 -- Zodiac Mafia (Game Over)

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE: Iecerint for being the first player to post.

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE: Xayzeck

SURELY

you thought your response to Witness Protection through. [/sarcasm]

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE: Xayzeck

SURELY

you thought your response to Witness Protection through. [/sarcasm]

i was responding to this btw

i can't seem to figure out why you're voting me, because you think i'm scum or just for the sake of wagons

It was really more of a wagon vote, since being nervous/unsure how to answer questions is null.

if it's the latter i'm really interested how you came to such a conclusion

This is confusing as phrased. If I'm doing it for the sake of wagoning you, then there is no real "conclusion" to come to.

Waiting to see if Iec kill went through.

Fake dayvigs happen all the time. I'd worry more about reactions than if Iecerint is really dead.

[StrangerCoug]

Then we should try to see if anyone will claim the dayvig so we can control the shot

I'm not in favor of this as it can easily allow the Mafia to influence the shot. The dayvig has a brain. That player should be allowed to use it.

UNVOTE: Xayzeck
VOTE: Salamence20

Fake dayvigs happen all the time. I'd worry more about reactions than if Iecerint is really dead.

Normally, yes. But 3.

Still, though, why do you think a dayvig would happen so fast on Day 1?

[StrangerCoug]

Ah, Red does the Vi/Tierce style of VCs. Cool

SC I'm not understanding your logic on how scum control the dayvig

I really don't know if that is the case as phrased right now, but in that case scum would want as little outside input as possible in the first place. Depending on how exactly the dayvig works and the game situation at the time, they could use it to get rid of a threat (if they submit the daykill privately), use it on lynchbait (if they have to do it privately), or use it on a scumbuddy that needs to be bussed.

If the dayvig is town, then allowing input from other people can easily allow scum to misdirect the kill on whomever they want. It's a super-old game, but my first time being vig here is a good example of why I believe what I do about directing the vig. I let other people direct my kills, and guess what happened?

[StrangerCoug]

^ This.

But yeah. Letting the dayvig decide on his own may not seem like the best idea on the surface—and it could very well be in unskilled hands—but it's better than essentially giving the scum a kill they don't deserve.

[StrangerCoug]

Scum in my experience tend to be more concerned about setup/role stuff on day 1.

This is an illegitimate argument since it is known there really is a dayvig somewhere among us. It's also a meta argument, which has a tendency not to work very well.

I'm not in favor of this as it can easily allow the Mafia to influence the shot. The dayvig has a brain. That player should be allowed to use it.

I want dayvig to claim intent to shoot before actually shooting, and I want them to shoot today. I want them to shoot today because mafia probably wants to hang onto the dayvig in order to wait for earlier LyLo or a suicide shot while going down, and both of those are less advantageous than forcing mafia to take a shot they will have to explain. I also see no advantage lost from giving whoever you're going to shoot a chance to claim/give final thoughts if town.

Welcome to my townlist. I can see this as a way to avoid losing someone to an inexperienced vig.

Scum have two horoscopes (dayvig in scumhands, this horoscope in townhands) that award them an extra kill. They have two tries at said extra kill per day. You think that RedCoyote gave scum some day redirector power role to deal with vig power in town hands... why?

Is this directed at Iecerint or me?

[StrangerCoug]

My point would be just as valid even if this was an open game. I'm not just talking about speculation but strategizing instead of scumhunting as well.

Why would it be a scumtell to strategize? You expect the town to screw itself over? Is that what I'm supposed to be getting?

[StrangerCoug]

My point would be just as valid even if this was an open game. I'm not just talking about speculation but strategizing instead of scumhunting as well.

Why would it be a scumtell to strategize? You expect the town to screw itself over? Is that what I'm supposed to be getting?

It's a scumtell because in my experience scum is more likely to talk exclusively about strategy in the early game. Why that is I'm not sure. It may be rolefising. It may be trying to look protown without taking any actual stances. In any case it's not strategizing in itself that's scummy. It's making strategizing te entirety or almost the entirety of your play.

I really do not buy this crap. Nobody's been talking exclusively about strategy, I don't smell anybody trying to rolefish, and while you admit that strategizing is not a scumtell, when we have some idea of who could have what, strategizing is quite protown. It's not unknown to break setups that way (though it's far too early for there to be evidence either way of a broken setup).

UNVOTE: Salamence20 (though I still wouldn't mind that person lynched)
VOTE: Dry-fit

[StrangerCoug]

I really do not buy this crap. Nobody's been talking exclusively about strategy

Then how would you characterize Salamence's play in this game?

Part the strategizing you talk about, part fluff, and no scumhunting whatsoever.

I don't smell anybody trying to rolefish, and while you admit that strategizing is not a scumtell, when we have some idea of who could have what, strategizing is quite protown. It's not unknown to break setups that way (though it's far too early for there to be evidence either way of a broken setup).

As I said it's not talking about strategy. It's only or almost only talking about strategy.

And I acknowledged that. Read my post again.

[StrangerCoug]

Ah so it's his fluff posting that's saved him.

How, exactly, is his fluff posting "saving" him when I still have him on my scumlist? I think you're outright misrepping me at this point.

[StrangerCoug]

Except that I never explicitly said strategizing was scummy.

[StrangerCoug]

Have I suddenly lost the ability to communicate?

I'm not convinced we have a communication problem. If anything, we're at an impasse where neither of us are budging.

Based on this post, I gather that SC's main problem with DryFit is that he seems to be railing against people who are strategizing because strategizing is vital to town and calling it a scumtell is antitown, but I think that point is pretty much completely talking past Dry-Fit's logic bolded here, which isn't even that Salamence is "strategizing exclusively", only that he's mostly done nothing but strategizing. I don't think the SC rebuttal of "he fluffed too" quite addresses this point.

I've done the best explanation I can. I pretty much have Salamence20 as useless, and the strategizing he's done is too little to make him town in my eyes.

Ah so it's his fluff posting that's saved him.

How, exactly, is his fluff posting "saving" him when I still have him on my scumlist? I think you're outright misrepping me at this point.

To this, it wasn't that his fluff posting saved him from your scumlist, it was that his fluff posting saved him from being someone who exclusively talked strategy. You said there wasn't anyone who exclusively talked strategy in the post quoted above.

I interpreted the context to be otherwise.

[StrangerCoug]

OK.

UNVOTE: Dry-fit
VOTE: Salamence20

Right now I believe that, if Dry-fit and Nachomamma8 are the same alignment, they are both town. I'd expect a weaker defense of Dry-fit from scumbuddy-Nachomamma8.

[StrangerCoug]

@STD: We're not going into this again. Either you're being ignorant or you forgot who I am (a person someone like you would love to policy).

His response was legitimate, and your refusal to explain why you feel like STD would wagon you based on personality is anti-town. I know you're leaning town on him but I am not unvoting you until you give him a proper response. Why is it townie for STD to wagon you?

[StrangerCoug]

Based on *something* he thinks I'm dangerous VI out to ruin games.

First, is this a "something" you are allowed to talk about?
Second, assuming that is true, what about it makes you think he's town? You need to be able to explain your reads.

So why wouldn't he wagon me if he had the chance (like he does now)?

I cannot read STD's mind, so I cannot answer your question.

[StrangerCoug]

He's hyper defensive and I think it's just how he is.

am i? did you do meta or are you just going to say that because you don't want to scumread me?

Why do you care about meta? Anybody here can manipulate their own meta to serve their best interest.

[StrangerCoug]

He's hyper defensive and I think it's just how he is.

am i? did you do meta or are you just going to say that because you don't want to scumread me?

Why do you care about meta? Anybody here can manipulate their own meta to serve their best interest.

Exactly why I brought it up? Meta reads are only reliable through play experience. We haven't played, if she has a problem with it then she should push it, not brush it off with meta that she doesn't back up yet still chooses to vote me for who really knows why

That's not the point I was making. I believe meta is useless to determine alignment. If you want an idea of how she plays in general, though, your asking for meta is more forgivable.

I don't have a problem with it...see this is exactly what I'm talking about. You are hyper defensive, but I think it's just your personality and playstyle, not alignment indicative.

My vote is still on you because I don't really have a scumread. (I know it's bad, but not much is happening) I was thinking Sala, maybe, but his 207 read as town and I kind of agree with it. PV could be scum.

Nine pages and you've got no real reads? I find that a bit on the suspicious side, almost like you don't care about reading this game.

FoS: Elyse

[StrangerCoug]

This would be where I have to disagree with you a little, because I feel meta is a great tool for scumhunting, but only if you've played with the person. I don't think you can meta someone you have never played with, whereas if you play with the person a lot, meta reads make more sense.

What Elsye did is she started out with a (i think sort of)scumread on me, which was bad enough as it is because she never explained how it was scum indicative, and then dismissed it herself through metatells(maybe because of Nacho), yet keeps her vote on me(maybe because of Sala).

You seem to be asking me why I care about her meta? That isn't the case, I'm curious as to how she arrived to "It's probably playstyle/personality" which is a metatell she's using on me to nullify the scumread she has on me(not sure if nullify is the correct word here, since she has expressed that PV could be scum yet hasn't moved her vote, so i'm scummier than PV? idk).

There's so little effort to read me here, and so much of looking good to good players while still staying on a small, supported, safe wagon, which I think to be scum.

I'm just sheeping Nacho at the moment because Elyse doesn't have much support(to be fair i didn't really push for it), plus I don't mind a Sala lynch(for now at least).

You said that I was asking for meta in general was more forgivable? I'm not sure I understand, because I don't recall asking for her meta? I do recall asking her if she meta'd me though, but I get the feeling that's not what you understood.

In any event, my job is not to be a playstyle critic. I do seem to have misunderstood you (I do have some legitimate concerns about Elyse), and in any event you are not on my scumlist.

[StrangerCoug]

@SC
I have reads - just not scumreads. But now I'm voting PerV.

Page 9 is still rather late to be getting them.

I see an FoS, and a vote based on some sort of interaction between two other players, but I can't seem to discern your scumlist. Would like to see it.

The strongest scumread is Salamence20, followed by Elyse. I don't have a solid scumread on anyone else.

[StrangerCoug]

Your scumread on me is because I don't have scumreads - and your only other scumread is Sala.

I've had Sala for awhile now, I had Dry-fit until Nacho explained how his actions were town, and now I have you. So that's not a valid excuse.

So basically, from your PoV, my only scumread should have been Sala.

That is not true at all. I said that you should have scumread someone—anybody that made sense—by now. Not Salamence20 specifically. If you thought Sala was town, then you should have someone else as scum, and all your voting has been out of "laziness". You have admitted that your Xayzeck vote was a pressure vote that you left even though you now thought he was town, and I'm not getting a genuine vibe from your PV vote.

And since I gave reasons as to why I'm not scumreading him, there's not really a difference between us. It's just that you scumread Sala and I don't, and you scumread me for not scumreading anyone else.

I scumread you for not scumreading anyone

PERIOD

. I am not trying to force you to sheep me; I am trying to force you to take an actual part in this game.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm not saying I should sheep you.

No, but you

ARE

saying that

I

am saying that.

What I'm saying is that you expecting me to have scumreads when you had one before me is wrong.

In what way?

[StrangerCoug]

I'm not explaining this in the right way.

You have two scumreads - Sala and me.

Your scumread on me is because I didn't have scumreads, so at that time (when I said I didn't have scumreads), your only scumread was Sala.

And I said I don't think Sala is scum.

So who was my scumread(s) supposed to be? I literally wasn't scumreading anyone, and you can't fault me for that because you weren't either - except for Sala who I specifically said I didn't find scummy. I wasn't going to make stuff up just to appease people.

UNVOTE: Salamence20
VOTE: Elyse

As I said, I don't care that you didn't, and still don't, think that Salamence20 is scum. I care that it took you this long to get a read at all, be it Salamence20, PeregrineV, Xayzeck—I wouldn't even care if it was

ME

if you had a good reason to suspect me.

You've demonstrated that you know I'm not here to decide your scumreads for you. Now knock it off with the misrep.

[StrangerCoug]

How am I misrepping you?

If I don't care about your read on Sala, then why do you keep defending against me by talking about your read on Sala? It's like telling the doctor you don't need a cast on your arm because nothing's wrong with your leg.

Right now I believe that, if Dry-fit and Nachomamma8 are the same alignment, they are both town. I'd expect a weaker defense of Dry-fit from scumbuddy-Nachomamma8.

but nacho could unknowingly be defending scum. So do you think dry-fit is town independent of nacho defending him?

No. My post implies only that I don't think they're both scum. I don't expect any immediate alignment information about Nachomamma8 from Dry-fit dead or vice versa.

I scumread you for not scumreading anyone PERIOD. I am not trying to force you to sheep me; I am trying to force you to take an actual part in this game.

Where did Elyse say you wanted her to sheep you?

It's implied here:

Your scumread on me is because I don't have scumreads - and your only other scumread is Sala.

So basically, from your PoV, my only scumread should have been Sala.

[StrangerCoug]

Sala to Dry to Toasty.

Vote hopping

To whom is this accusation directed?

[StrangerCoug]

Toasty, who voted me for thinking PV is votehopping

Which is not a legitimate reason to vote you, now that you bring it up. I would call three votes in fourteen posts vote hopping.

FoS: Toasty and PeregrineV

I'm seeing a chainsaw defense here.

[StrangerCoug]

Toasty, who voted me for thinking PV is votehopping

Which is not a legitimate reason to vote you, now that you bring it up. I would call three votes in fourteen posts vote hopping.

Sorry I missed the memo on the minimum posts needed before changing votes.

There's no hard number, but I do consider it a bad sign.

FoS: Toasty and PeregrineV

I'm seeing a chainsaw defense here.

Just so I'm reading this right, you think Toasty is defending me by attacking Sal, right?

Yes.

I think you should look up the definition of a chainsaw defense.

Firstly, I never said PV was town, I just think Slamence20's reasons are the shittiest on the wagon.

Let's break down PV's 3 votes:

1) Burn: RVS
2) My slot: early push
3) Salamance: some sort of unexplained speshul reasons and probably my biggest problem with the PV votes (although PV not explaining things isn't really out of the ordinary)
4) My slot: push again because my lack of posting made him suspicious. And this is fair.
5) Salamence: Goes back here because after my slot provided

actual content

, he went back to his scumread.

So that's not vote-hopping. He isn't bouncing from place to place to go with the flow of the game. Its not like he went from me to salamance to gemini.
So yeah, its a bad reason for voting PV.

Fair enough.

Un-FoS

for the both of you.

@Coug: If you had a vote on someone and they provided content that changed your mind, would you keep your vote on them?

About alignment, which is what I think you're asking about, no.

[StrangerCoug]

Why do you have such a problem with people townreading me?

How do you deduce that Xayzeck has a problem with people townreading you? He responded to this with a reasonable question and you blew him off.

[StrangerCoug]

In what way? You can't just call an arbitrary post scummy.

[StrangerCoug]

I don't really know why this game is hard to get movement; I can't really blame anyone for feeling that way because I feel it too.

I'm not seeing much advancement, either. My scumreads are still pretty much Salamence20 and Elyse, though I await to see how Iecerint responds to me. I don't believe that I've previously stated Xayzeck is town, but that's the only really new thing I have.

[StrangerCoug]

1. That is, back up your words. You make an attempt in the second part, though, so I'll just address that:

2. If my question is not legitimate, then neither is Xayzeck's, which I don't buy since it was not the first question to which Elyse didn't give a straight answer. I am also not trying to win anyone's favor, and there is no indication that Xayzeck suspects me in the first place despite the disagreements that we have had.

[StrangerCoug]

Xayzeck is town, though, so it's not troubling if he does scummy things until he's done like 10 of them.

How is that relevant to your attack on me? I think Xayzeck is town as well.

[StrangerCoug]

I think you're being deliberately opaque, Iecerint. Xayzeck and I effectively asked Elyse the same question; the only difference of note is that I was more explicit. You are playing favorites by giving Xayzeck a free pass for scummy behavior that I am supposedly committing.

FoS: Iecerint

[StrangerCoug]

I think you're being deliberately opaque, Iecerint. Xayzeck and I effectively asked Elyse the same question; the only difference of note is that I was more explicit. You are playing favorites by giving Xayzeck a free pass for scummy behavior that I am supposedly committing.

FoS: Iecerint

Why not upgrade this into something that matters? Do you think Elyse will get lynched today?

I'm questioning whether

ANYBODY

will get lynched today at this rate. I'm willing to give Iecerint the rope for his behavior but changing my vote right now simply changes who's tied for the most votes. Convince me that Elyse is town and I'll switch.

[StrangerCoug]

@SC
What's your read on Iec?

Scum, which you would have picked up if you were reading the thread.

[StrangerCoug]

UNVOTE: Elyse
VOTE: Salamence20

We need a consensus here, and my suspicions of Salamence20 didn't go completely away.

[StrangerCoug]

I think you're being deliberately opaque, Iecerint. Xayzeck and I effectively asked Elyse the same question; the only difference of note is that I was more explicit. You are playing favorites by giving Xayzeck a free pass for scummy behavior that I am supposedly committing.

FoS: Iecerint

Is this the first time you have suspected Iecerint in the game? It seems kind of out of nowhere. For some reason I thought you were town reading him.

It is, but read the conversation Iecerint and I had. It's not "out of nowhere."

[StrangerCoug]

Nice total lack of votes you've got there.

Be a shame if something were to happen to it.

What is the point of this threat? All you're doing here is fear-mongering and telling us jack about why Xayzeck is scum. It's the exact same thing you did with me.

[StrangerCoug]

Nice total lack of votes you've got there.

Be a shame if something were to happen to it.

What is the point of this threat? All you're doing here is fear-mongering and telling us jack about why Xayzeck is scum. It's the exact same thing you did with me.

lol.

Xayzeck's post was saliently non-constructive. I was lampshading it. It should be super obvious.

And how, exactly, is your post any more constructive than his?

[StrangerCoug]

There's less than a day until deadline and your wagon is the biggest.

Did you even read the game before you made that shot?

Why are you asking him that question when you apparently can't read your own posts? You're voting Salamence despite him being fourth place in your scumlist. I understand compromise lynches, but damn...

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Possibly ill; LA.

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE: Salamence20

Why are you concerned about self-preservation?

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE: Salamence20

Why are you concerned about self-preservation?

...Did you read his post...?

I don't buy his claim, if that is what you are asking. We agreed that the vig was to be used today and he wanted to save it for a guilty.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: I consider myself well enough to declare myself out of LA.

[StrangerCoug]

why are people voting Aronis?

No useful content. Juls also doesn't have much content. Sort of hammered salamence. Salamence is likely town, worth at least keeping around if cop to verify.

I'd be willing to switch to Xayzeck personally; I will not vote Salemence today. I will reassess tomorrow.

~STD

I did not hammer Salamence. OK? Like get your fucking facts straight.

I don't think that was Gemini Blind's intended statement. "Sort of" implies he knows you didn't.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, my thoughts on a few people not-Salamence:

I am now questioning my earlier Iecerint scum-read. #561 does not look like scum bussing a buddy in trouble to me as it introduces new information to the game. That's town effort.
Apathetic about whether Aronis is lynched or not at this time. He's almost a non-factor in this game, and I haven't liked what I have seen. I would like for him to step it up.
I need a refresher on the Xayzeck case—I had him as VI.
Nachomamma is still town, Gemini Blind, CrashTextDummie, and Dry-Fit I have in my town block.
I don't have a strong read on PeregrineV or ToastyToast.

[StrangerCoug]

Right now I feel the most comfortable voting Aronis. He didn't post a lot of substance yesterday, his actions toward Salamence20 read as a somewhat reluctant bus to me, and I think his opening post today is a little disingenuous.

VOTE: Aronis

I feel like I really need to rethink this game, but Iecerint is off the table for a lynch today.

[StrangerCoug]

I feel like I really need to rethink this game, but Iecerint is off the table for a lynch today.

Why?

I thought the lynch made Gemini Blind look somewhat bad for stalling it, but since the slot is dead, that's not a route I can pursue, and I have few strong scum reads at this point. I don't have a town case for any of you, PeregrineV, or Xayzeck, however. Those are players I need to look at.

[StrangerCoug]

My doubting Iecerint was scum in the first place originated in #570, and I think the lynch cements that.

[StrangerCoug]

Gemini being killed was so dumb that I am inclined to believe that a kill was blocked and Gemini died by some other mechanism.

That would explain my thinking, but the evidence of a night vig is flimsy, which is why I'd rather not dwell on it. I don't think Gemini Blind was SK'd.

[StrangerCoug]

Question: Does Xayzeck-Salamance make Xayzeck seem more town or less town to people?

I want to say

SLIGHTLY

more town. I thought Xayzeck was one of the easier lynches and Salamence20 was trying to get it as cheaply as possible. Xayzeck not supporting a Sal lynch post-claim can easily come from either alignment, though.

[StrangerCoug]

Why do you want to lynch Nacho?

The longer Nacho is alive, the more I want to lynch him.

This does not really tell us anything other than how long he's alive is a factor in how scummy he is, which is unreliable by itself in the first place. As Aronis said, support what you're saying.

UNVOTE: Aronis
VOTE: Xayzeck

[StrangerCoug]

This does not really tell us anything other than how long he's alive is a factor in how scummy he is, which is unreliable by itself in the first place. As Aronis said, support what you're saying.

lol ur quick with your votes

And your problem is?

The general idea with Nacho alive = I want to lynch him more is really just "there are certain players who don't make it to lylo" kind of tell, and the closer we get to lylo, the more I think that person is scum, because the only reason they aren't dead, is because they're scum.

Assuming we have two scum left and mislynch every time until we get there, this kind of logic will also apply to you and three other players. If you are town and scum wants to lynch Nacho, you are playing into exactly the same trap they want you to fall for. Tell us what gives or die. "There are certain players who don't make it to LYLO" doesn't cut it.

[StrangerCoug]

So we have less than three days here, though deadline extension is possible. We need a real wagon to emerge, and it should be on Aronis. He's dodged my question about why he didn't like my Salamence case. He hasn't brought anything to the table scumhunting wise today. Though he's not really the only one that applies to. And as far as I remember no one has a town read on him. Let's make this happen.

I can swing back at crunch time, but I like my Xayzeck vote better.

[StrangerCoug]

This does not really tell us anything other than how long he's alive is a factor in how scummy he is, which is unreliable by itself in the first place. As Aronis said, support what you're saying.

lol ur quick with your votes

And your problem is?

Will you please answer me?

[StrangerCoug]

UNVOTE: Xayzeck
VOTE: Aronis