Micro 382 - CREDIMVS PAVONI DEORVM (Game Over!)

[Wake1]

I've been ninja'd.

Standby.

[Josh_B]

And Josh, while you're at it, I'll have you weigh in on this further, leaving no stone unturned.

I see you. You're online. You've posted elsewhere. You're online now.

Do not think that fact escapes me. I would hate to think you're Scum, hoping for me to distract players from your lynch. If I'm going to question people, which in turn may delay your lynch, I'll not have you remain silent through it all.

Teirshift, or scripten are going to put a vote on vettrock dp3. Scum will win.

[Wake1]

Phine post. Ninjad

1)

"Wake, when scripten drops the hammer, you are the most likely person to be NK'd."

One moment there. Two parts. First, don't speak of the future. We don't know for certain if Scripten is going to hammer you. Secondly, I don't see exactly why you think I am the most likely person to be NK'd. As everyone is well-aware by now, I have been extremely busy, and even now I am sacrificing time with my family in order to be here with you all. My time, frankly, is precious and scarce. Scum could bank on me struggling to find time to be here, and they would be right. Why exactly do you think I'm going to be the NK? Walk me through this. Scum likely have better targets to choose from. I certainly hope you aren't grooming me to be mislynched should you be lynched and flip Scum.

2)

"Before that happens can you tell us about your expeience as a mod in dealing with scum planning in their thread to push certain issues? "

Before

if

that happens, you mean. Let's be pointedly accurate here. I have experience hosting quite a few games. Not sure how exactly this will help. Do you mean Daytalk? Scum Daytalk? I don't think we have that here, although I may be terribly wrong. I have an ongoing game offsite utilizing that, but I cannot discuss it because there are more than 3 members on MS that play over there, in that very ongoing game. Why are you asking me this? If you would explain better what truths you are aiming for it would certainly help me to answer your questions. Take your time, and use as many words as you need if you feel it will help me better understand what it is you're wanting from me.

3)

"And can you check post 419 to see if Asher and Bbt's cases against vettrock and myself are similar enough that they appear pre planned? II think they are, and that it trumps the individual scuminess if any individual player."

I'm not feeling comfortable with vettrock. If he was convinced about wolfy's innocence, he could have fought harder.

Also, given that you both thought he was town, why did neither of you try to defend him?

-I expect to see this in the scum thread at end game.

I do not know, because there are parts of the game thread I have not read. I do not have the time to read, reread, and reread hundreds of posts over and over again. This is why I ask for clarification, and condensed posts. If players ask me, I can do so easily, because I have not one thing to hide. Ergo, I know others can as well. I don't know about their two cases. Does any of it hinge on the idea that there could be Scum Daytalk?

[Josh_B]

About fakeness. I'm looking at 5p lylo and tiershift is being bull headed. Scripten is reasonably not hammering. If he votes for me instead of Bbt, i think this game is lost right now. Anything short of how I really feel is probably fake. Not Fake- vote for bbt you retard. However, i am refraining from calling names and being overly aggressive in hopes that my points will be heard better, because that's what works on my wife.

[Wake1]

So, wait a bit.

If you're Town, and you know this is dire, isn't there supposed to be some sort of emotion?

Are you normally emotional as Town when you know something bad is coming, and you're probably going to be mislynched?

Do elaborate on your feelings right now. I'd like to keep you talking.

[Wake1]

How do you really feel, Josh?

Let it out.

Lemme see if your tears are real.

[Wake1]

FoS @ Tiershift

for obstructing inquiry and taking posts out of context. Remember this should I turn up dead over the Night.

[Josh_B]

Phine post. Ninjad

1)

"Wake, when scripten drops the hammer, you are the most likely person to be NK'd."

One moment there. Two parts. First, don't speak of the future. We don't know for certain if Scripten is going to hammer you. Secondly, I don't see exactly why you think I am the most likely person to be NK'd. As everyone is well-aware by now, I have been extremely busy, and even now I am sacrificing time with my family in order to be here with you all. My time, frankly, is precious and scarce. Scum could bank on me struggling to find time to be here, and they would be right. Why exactly do you think I'm going to be the NK? Walk me through this. Scum likely have better targets to choose from. I certainly hope you aren't grooming me to be mislynched should you be lynched and flip Scum.

2)

"Before that happens can you tell us about your expeience as a mod in dealing with scum planning in their thread to push certain issues? "

Before

if

that happens, you mean. Let's be pointedly accurate here. I have experience hosting quite a few games. Not sure how exactly this will help. Do you mean Daytalk? Scum Daytalk? I don't think we have that here, although I may be terribly wrong. I have an ongoing game offsite utilizing that, but I cannot discuss it because there are more than 3 members on MS that play over there, in that very ongoing game. Why are you asking me this? If you would explain better what truths you are aiming for it would certainly help me to answer your questions. Take your time, and use as many words as you need if you feel it will help me better understand what it is you're wanting from me.

3)

"And can you check post 419 to see if Asher and Bbt's cases against vettrock and myself are similar enough that they appear pre planned? II think they are, and that it trumps the individual scuminess if any individual player."

I'm not feeling comfortable with vettrock. If he was convinced about wolfy's innocence, he could have fought harder.

Also, given that you both thought he was town, why did neither of you try to defend him?

-I expect to see this in the scum thread at end game.

I do not know, because there are parts of the game thread I have not read. I do not have the time to read, reread, and reread hundreds of posts over and over again. This is why I ask for clarification, and condensed posts. If players ask me, I can do so easily, because I have not one thing to hide. Ergo, I know others can as well. I don't know about their two cases. Does any of it hinge on the idea that there could be Scum Daytalk?

Right i should have said if. From my pov. You are the most reasonable player in the game right now. Scripten and tiershift have already expressed intrest in voting other town players specifically vettrock.
Common interests, and defending a scum partner are points to look at after someone flips but saying the same sthing by two different players is the most solid associative tells in this game. While the whole town is clamoring for information the scum already know where to look, and that means thy have thier syories straight. It isnt like scriptens later post saying that he thimks vettrock should have defended wolfy more too. Bbt and asher seem to have known the story prior to posting it and have each made a case against other players. It appears predetermined. Like "here's the casr, present it in your own words."
In order for that to happen, scum do not need day talk, and that is not what iI'm siggesting. But they do need to have an organized idea prior to the daystart. If the plan is good enough, they can pull it off without a hitch. If it isnt the scum team is recognized by their organization and the town wins.
If the town is willing to recognize it.
At this point people are so caught up in their own confirmation bias, the answer is right there and no one is even considering it.

[Josh_B]

I have to go to work for two hours. I'll be back around 730ish

[Asher Kendrell]

AsherKendrell, knowing you have only 16 posts, why are you done posting for now?

Vettrock, my excuse for not posting is because I've been hit very hard with work. What is your reason for not posting?

I extend this question to Asher, too, especially since he's stated he's done posting.

I said I was done posting in response to scripten waiting for me. I had said that I wished to post something, posted it, and told him that was what I wanted to post. It wasn't supposed to be a "I'm done posting, only lurking from here on out.", it's more of a "I said what I mentioned wanting to say, you don't have to wait for me now."

I'm still here to post.

[Scripten]

However, i am refraining from calling names and being overly aggressive in hopes that my points will be heard better, because that's what works on my wife.

Spoiler: OOC

I couldn't help myself.

Actual game stuff tomorrow, maybe earlier. Got a lot of classwork for tonight.

[Josh_B]

Commonly known information that is also included in the OP of this game: Mafia Goon: During the Night, you may talk to your partner.

Being able to talk to your partner isn't a scum tell, it's a hole in the game. It's the thing that separates mafia from town. Mafia need to guard themselves from appearing too organized, or else they will be found out. Every scum tell can be attributed to a player being a Village Idiot or a bad player except for tells that show players have schemed together a plan.

I swear, I almost missed the plan. I was so damn worried about BBT twisting my words, and Scripten throwing in his little jabs, that I really wasn't paying that much attention to Asher. A couple of his posts kind of pinged me as strange, but that's it. You can see in post 404 when I realized that both BBT's case against me, and Asher's case against Vettrock were strikingly similar. Too similar not to be planned.

Maybe you guys have already noticed this, Asher still hasn't responded to 404, and due to Scripten prolonging the hammer, he's definitely had time. But alas, nothing that Asher says is going to change the fact that I found the two players with a plan, I've exposed that plan, but I can't win by myself.

So Tiershift and Scripten, get over here and stop messing around. This is the scum team. Let's lynch Asher and BlueBloodedToffee. Remember what Wolfy said at the beginning of this game.

BBT's first newbie game (my second) I read him as solid town the whole game - he was scum.
He drew comments afterwards from the pros for exceptional 1st time scum play.

Don't fall into the same trap that Wolfie did. I've played with BBT before. I know him he's a good scum player, but it doesn't matter. Sometimes you get caught, and this time I have him dead to rights. You can either look past our differences and I can help you win the game, or you can lynch me and try to work together with the remaining town.

tiershift and scripten, you fell into BBT's trap on D1 when you voted wolfie. Do NOT fall into his trap again. Hey, you might already be snared for this DP, but recognize that he is Mafia, even if you really really need my flip to prove it, and vote the shit out of him in LYLO. Please DO IT, but you don't have to wait until lylo, you can vote his ass right freaking now. Like BBT said to Wolfy in this game...

Wolfy, stop insulting me. I don't know why you're making this personal.

Well this isn't personal this is voting for scum.

[Josh_B]

I think that when I was phone posting earlier, I accidentally hit the alert triangle. Who do I need to tell that it was an accident?

[The Bulge]

Votecount 2.7

BlueBloodedToffee (2) -

vettrock, Josh_B

Asher Kendrell (0) -

Josh_B (3) -

BlueBloodedToffee, Asher Kendrell, TierShift

(L-1)

Scripten (0) -

Wake88 (0) -

TierShift (1) -

Wake88

vettrock (0) -

Not Voting -

Scripten

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

Deadline in (expired on 2014-09-14 20:28:00) (September 14).

[Asher Kendrell]

My response to 404

Spoiler:

Asher,

He seemed pretty convinced that wolfy wasn't scum.... If he was convinced about wolfy's innocence, he could have fought harder.

What? is this the same exact thing that BBT is trying to push? I think it is.

Both your vote on Wolfy, and your vote on me have been empty. I'm glad that you were able to convey your reasonings for voting Wolfy in this DP. But last DP when I asked you for a catch up post would have been better.

I just looked in my refrigerator for Ketchup, and I didn't have any. So, I was sad. Then I wondered if Asher felt the same way in this game.

No Catsup Asher?

I'm sorry, but I find that to just be snarky, not discussion. That's not asking for a catch up post.

Where did you come up with this?

so it sounds more like he would be okay with a no lynch as long as it happens slow rather than immediately.

Did vettrock actually say that he would like a no lynch, or just that he didn't want a lynch on wolfy. Did he say he didn't want a lynch on Wolfy, or just that the speed of the lynch was anti-town?]

Vettrock said that an early no lynch is anti-town, but so was a quick lynch. That leaves either a slow lynch or a slow no lynch. Since he was against the lynch on Day 1, he must have been for the slow no lynch. Or he was fence sitting like I said earlier.

I'll be blunt, I feel like Josh is digging himself into a hole here. I'm with scripten and bbt.

I'm not liking how vettrock only comes in to defend him.

And you didn't like it when he didn't defend his town read, so which do you like? when he does or when he doesn't?

Already talked about this in 499.

Response to 379 Spoiler that I felt pertained to me (Josh_b)

Could just be a bad play for town, or I'm thinking cornered scum.

Which part is bad town play? and what is cornered scum about what I've said and done so far?

322 and 360 are just you lashing out at BBT. That looks to me like you're feeling trapped and trying to escape. Even if you think he's scum, it's beyond necessary.

End of story just sounds like a cop out. It forces an end to questions and attempts to end all discussion. I can't see a way that benefits the town. It's just backtracking on his part. Also, "how long do you plan on tunneling this?

I've said the same thing over and over, and over, and over. Please read this post for clarification.post 354

I don't have a problem with repetition. I do have a problem with trying to end discussion. Even discussion that seems like it's going nowhere. People talking about nothing is better than not talking at all.

Yet you drop vettrock 17 minutes later then tunnel on scripten for the rest of the game? Excluding a vote on me which you've now replaced, you've been tunneling on scripten and then call out bbt for tunneling?

Yep, I didn't tunnel on vettrock. The tunneling between Scripten and myslef has been mutual, and I have been tunneled on by BBT.

Except you were focused on a BBT/scripten scum team, but now it's clearly BBT and I who are the scum team. So you call out bbt for tunneling, but you're looking quite focused on him yourself.

[Josh_B]

asher. Well I found the scum team now, so thanks.

[Asher Kendrell]

Now? As in my post changed something?

In any case, I have class tomorrow so I can't post until roughly 17:00 EDT.

[Josh_B]

Your post changed nothing, and you still got the scum PM this game.

[vettrock]

Scripten, what are you hoping to gain from prolonging the day?

We have two players looking to have something said before the end of the day. I don't see why we should need to cut them off.

Ideally the day should last until everyone has said their piece only scum gains from cutting it short. More posting by town and scum are both helpful to down.

huh.

Josh, what was it that prompted your read on scripten and BBT to change?

Do you mean from BBT/Scripten to BBT/Asher?
An ISO PbPA on Asher. My case really just started with Asher's contradiction to his feelings on Vettrock. First he said he thought Vettrock should have tried to defend Wolfy more if Wolfy was a town read, then he said that he didn't like it that Vettrock was defending me.
If I'm one of Vettrock's town reads, doesn't it make sense that vettrock would defend according to that line of thinking?
I thought,

If Asher didn't like the way Vettrock handled the Wolfy wagon, wouldn't he be more inclined to appreciate the way that Vettrock is handling the Josh wagon?

But while I was doing that deja-vu hit me. What Asher said that he didn't like about Vettrock in the first place was nearly identical to the thing that I've been battling from BBT. /case solved.

I do think vettrock should have defended wolfy. I also think that if he believes you're town, he should defend you. What I didn't like about it was that the first (non-quoted) line of his first post in ~40 hours was defending you. That seems to me to mean that he's extremely focused on protecting you. Which is quite a 180 turn from how he handled the wolfy wagon, which means there's something different about you. Either he's utterly convinced you're town, or you're working together. I don't think that's much of a contradiction on my part.

I also have a limited amount of time to play the game. The main difference from my perspecive of my defending wolfy vs. defending Josh is just I have had a lot more time to defend Josh.

If you were Scum, what would you be doing?

Knock it off with the self-meta-probing questions already

Josh should claim if he's at L-1. Does that sound reasonable? Same with BBT (assuming he's at L-1, too).

Ewwwwwwww
Let me break down why I do NOT like this post.

First, Bbt is under no threat of getting lynched.
Second and most important, Josh claimed VT already. Things would be different if he had claimed a PR, but at this point asking BBT for a claim will not help us decide a lynch and only will give info to the scumteam where possible PR's lie.

Nicely played off with a parallel to josh, though.

Wake, how does BBT claiming aid us?

When doesn't claiming at L-1 aid the Town?

Assuming BBT is also at L-1, and assuming you know that's true, then it's possible someone else could vote to hammer BBT. I don't know, but it's possible, assuming we have to wagons at L-1. If BBT isn't at L-1, and you know this, yet you question anyways in spite of that knowledge, then I would wonder why you haven't corrected me yet for not knowing where the current votes stand.

I find it odd how BBT asserts he's under no risk of being lynched in spite of being at L-1. It sounds presumptuous, considering we don't know for sure what everyone is thinking. And your last question, trying to make it seem as if I'm fishing for PRs when I'm not, is not helping me think you're Town. My vote's staying where it is for now.

More to come in a little bit.

First I agree with the self meta questions. While I answered the "what you would do as scum" question to be cooperative, I don't think they accomplish anything. If you are scum, you can either do what you said, or do something different to "show your not scum" or if you do just what you said, you can claim the scum is trying to point the finger at you with their actions. As scum, you can do what someone says when they do that to point the finger at them. It doesn't help the town and just throws more misdirection into the game.

When you are at L-1 with someone claiming intent to hammer, that is the time to claim. That is when when the town can gain by re-evaluating who they are lynching. I would have been very surprised if Scripten or anyone else on the Josh wagon moved to hammer without any warning. Pushing for a claim without intent to hammer is rolefishing in the worst way. Very scummy in my book. Especially after being told that there is no reason for the claim, he continued to push. I don't have a lot of time to play and read and re-read everything either, but this just seems to much of an obvious scum move to ignore.

Wake's accusation and shifting is vote to Tiershift was also either just him taking things way to personal, or scummy as well. What did Tiershift do to change your opinion of him. What was the behavior change other than calling you out for your role-fishing.

Also I don't see why we would assume Wake88 would be the nightkill. I don't see any particular reason why him rather than anyone else.

The thing I really don't like about the Josh wagon, what how is is almost exactly the same as the wolfy wagon. This leads me to believe there is as least one scum on that wagon. The difficulty is determining who it is. My suspicion is primarly BBT and Asher, However given wake88's recent posting, I'm going to call him out.
VOTE: Wake88

[TierShift]

Okay I think I like vettrock a little better now maybe

[Scripten]

I don't believe you have the option of pointing at your ISO and otherwise remaining silent when I dig at you for answers.

Except, when the case has been made very clearly already, it's your responsibility to keep up. You aren't "grilling" me for answers. You're wasting my time and doing nothing while pretending to scumhunt.

I am a Townie. Sacrificial in that as long as one Townie lives we all win. I don't know what would happen if I don't get my answers, but I do know, looking at the landscape, that I have absolutely nothing to hold me back. I don't think Scum could well afford that kind of intense, unbearable scrutiny.

Since you're so happy to call others out on statements that look fake to you, here's an example a very fake-looking statement. You're

so

sure you're town that you need to tell us how town you are. Yeah... real townies don't need to do that.

Scripten, as noted in (537) he took my quote out of context, while using hyperbole. That's why I'm voting him, because Town has no good reason to try and take one's words out of context. Why are you asking this when the post was just recent, and obvious? It makes me wonder, considering the post was less than ten posts back. This gives me the idea that if TS flips Scum, that you're his partner, because you're asking me why I'd be voting your partner when it's fairly obvious it's because he shifted the context of my post.

Except TS's posts make sense and yours are so verbose as to be nonsensical at times. Do you not understand why we asked you to paraphrase? It was not because we couldn't find your points, rather that you were being obtuse and wordy for no reason.

FoS: Wake88

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So lynch Josh today and Wake tomorrow. Game won.

Hammer Scripten?

[Scripten]

We have plenty of time to talk. People are still mid-conversation right now, so cutting them off would be both rude and pointless.

I don't think we're at risk of people burning out. Do you?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Probably not. I guess I'm just impatient. I hate giving scum a chance to muddy the waters.

[vettrock]

Probably not. I guess I'm just impatient. I hate giving scum a chance to muddy the waters.

Almost completely disagree with this. More posting can only help town. Yes, scum can throw out some bogus stuff but in the end that is what helps the town flush out the scum. Assuming someone is scum, yes it is better that they get hammered but I'm not confident that will happen, and if someone is convinced to change, that will only further help the next day.