Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

[goodmorning]

/confirm

[goodmorning]

Vote: Toffee

For not being nice to meta or meeeeeeeee

[goodmorning]

everyone hates meeeeeeeeeeeeee ;_;

[goodmorning]

Hmmmmmm Sonic might be Scum.

[goodmorning]

Hmmmmmm Sonic might be Scum.

Why?

Because that post was so utterly overdone it's ridiculous. He's holding the cards in his left hand and telling us to watch the right, but in such an obvious way that it looks to me like a double- or triple-bluff.
I mean, there're a couple different options and not all of them have him as Scum, but it's pretty blatantly manipulative and I don't like it.

I am an ordinary Vanilla Townie!

I think the masons should not claim first at all, and

my partner

should instead try to find out who is town and masonize them so that eventually town will get a strong townblock of town!

So, are you a vanilla townie or a mason?

You should know your own role...

The bold is interesting to me. Prizes for guessing why.

[goodmorning]

Was gone, will catch up in morning

[goodmorning]

I get that it's ridiculous, but you were pointing out his likelihood of being scum in a wishy washy manner, not his supposedly ludicrous manipulative attempts. DO you find any scum motivation behind the post?

If I didn't then I'd hardly be likely to say I'd thought he could be Scum, would I?

I think it was the way the "Why?" came after the vote rather than after the quote. Like he needed an excuse for joining an rvs wagon. It just didn't seem to flow.

No it was rather a serious vote.

Which you oddly have yet to really explain, afaik.

[goodmorning]

^Are you scumreading me for not having been here, or is it still OMGUS?

[goodmorning]

Meta is a good tool if used wisely. Don't blame the tool for the way it's sometimes misused.

I don't really want to get into this in the middle of a game, would prefer to talk about it post-game, but if somebody is aware of their meta or how certain people interpret meta, it can be manipulated quite easily.

BUTTING IN
There's a difference between actions and tone, and there are also some actions that people don't seem to be able to help doing even if they're indicative.

But it's definitely better saved for after the game.

[goodmorning]

wow you are so good at explaining

[goodmorning]

Well, I still haven't read pages 2-4, so I'm not really at much of anywhere at present. Will probably post much more soonish though.

[goodmorning]

Well, I still haven't read pages 2-4, so I'm not really at much of anywhere at present. Will probably post much more soonish though.

How slow at reading must you be to be unable to read two pages?

Obviously, it's scum-alignment-reading-speed-failure-and-beetlejuice syndrome!

I actually read quite quickly, but I haven't been able to sit down at the computer for more than a few minutes at a time and I'd really rather only read it once for now.

Beetlejuice? Really?

Haven't you heard? A vote is the town's best weapon!

A vote is a good weapon; however, when it only sticks on someone for a page or so, it pretty much becomes useless. Your vote serves no purpose as you're expected to move it onto the next target within the next 25 posts.

I don't want to be pointing my weapon and accidentally killing someone who is town.

I can't even this contradiction.

Ms knock it off please. I know you find it funny but it's really not

THIS

Hmmmm p2 Zeb looked like reachy Scum but p6 Zeb looks much townier.

@Josh: Well, there's not a lot of mileage in a grudge.

@Huntress: The best townbloc is a joke townbloc. LET'S START A COUNTERBLOC OMG

Also those who were in the game from the start. Were there Day 1 start PMs sent out?

There were day start PMs but no link to the game thread. New mod.

I object to the characterisation of non-link daystart PMs as something a new mod would do.

[goodmorning]

Does this mean that you have read the game already?

Does this mean you read the rest of my post already?

On lurker PLs: meh.

[goodmorning]

what a fucking shock

[goodmorning]

was anyone else surprised? i was surprised

[goodmorning]

mmmmmmmmmm this is already dull

it's almost like i've seen this farce before

[goodmorning]

oh wait

i know where

it was on page 2

well shit

i didn't think we were far enough into the game to start repeating ourselves

sonic might be scum

[goodmorning]

if only that was a catchup post

you may have noticed that all the posts were from the current page

this is because i still have not read pages 3-4.

i was yelling at seagulls all weekend. i didn't take my computer. then i fucked about yesterday and was out tutoring today. i am tired of thinking. proofs should be shot.

effort is not indicative of alignment

something it's cute that you're trying to use a newbscum tell and fucking beetlejuice though something something

[goodmorning]

i sort of figured it would be self-evident given my utter lack of reference to page 3-4

but, you know, comprehension is for losers or something

[goodmorning]

Lol

Coming from the person who can't read 2 pages

well once i read them i'll at least be able to comprehend them

it's almost like i care about solving the game and you don't

perish the fucking thought

Toffee pressures Metal Sonic

Metal Sonic tells Toffee to leave him alone

I don't like this at all. Town should be fine with scumhunting, even if it's on them (since they can say all their thoughts; as town, they have nothing to hide). Also, the uncle sonic thing bugs me.

Will post more when I have time

This is an overreaction. I don't like this post.

See, I actually quite like that post. It screams "NEWBTOWN" in neon letters.

Also, GM can you actually do something please.

I am doing something. That something just doesn't extend to pages 3-4 atm.

This post in particular was one of the worst catchup posts that I would only expect from bad VIs (user VDA) or just textbook scum.

It does not provide any substantiation comments on the game state, does not give any reads, does not mention if anybody is town, and are just lackadaisical comments that provide absolutely no contribution or any form of curiosity of scum hunting nature that would be expected from a townie.

I called you out for lurking, so you read the previous pages and made a few swift comments to appease te town and super quote blocks to make your post seem long. Like, it takes only 10 minutes max to read 2 pages of content, and for the past few days you checked the thread only to prod dodge. When an expected analysis of the previous two pages was to be analyses, you gave no analysis whatsoever. No reads, no scumhunting, nothing.

I actually agree with most of this.

Really?????

It hinges on my post having been a catchup post of pages 3-4, which it categorically wasn't _{(the posts having been in the hundreds and all on the current page was a dead fucking giveaway)}. It then throws in a slice of

utterly fucking useless

Beetlejuice and pretends that means something. How in the flying fuck can you agree with any of that?

You think town semi-role fish?

I never semi role-fished. All I said was that I am a Vanilla Townie over and over. I told the masons to stay quiet. If anyone is going to get rolefished, it's the scum.

this post = worst post

Ironically, Goodmorning received 3 votes during RVS and these lurkers probably haven't removed their votes yet. With your vote, goodmorning will be at L-2. If he is scum as I predict, he is going to cry, lol.

Oh you poor thing.

I am the type of person who replaces into L-1 slots. Votes do not and have never bothered me as any alignment.

Look at how defensive she is. And I wrote a pretty big case against her for a game with less than ten pages. You read that, didn't you?

I've found that if you let the bullshit live it tends to multiply.

And your case was a pretty massive fucking steaming pile.

"Boo hoo, gm hasn't read these fucking pages yet" WELL EFFORT IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT

Do I need to bring up my delaying making a case for a month as VT again or are people sick of that yet?

Defensiveness does equal scum. Active lurking also equals scum. Not contributing to the town despite being here =

refusing

to contribute = scum. What else? Right. Having bad reactions when one is being put at L-3 at page 7 probably adds quite a few scumpoints too.

Rebutting a case =/= defensiveness.
Being at the fucking beach =/= active lurking.
And I'll repeat for the record that I do not and have never cared about votes.

Vote: Sonic

[goodmorning]

Lol

Coming from the person who can't read 2 pages

well once i read them i'll at least be able to comprehend them

it's almost like i care about solving the game and you don't

perish the fucking thought

JUST TO MAKE THIS STAND THE FUCK OUT

[goodmorning]

No. I think he's Scum because
1. He hasn't displayed any interest in the actual content of anyone's posts, preferring instead to substitute his own narrative over the actual words people are actually saying.
2. His attempts to control the game are incredibly manipulative (as are some of his posts).
3. His butting in at various times is annoying at best (implies scummy at worst).
4. He's failed to answer my questions to him or discuss my rebuttals of his case. Which then links back to 1 and the whole fucking cycle starts again.

And that's not even getting into whether he was or wasn't rolefishing, or anything he might have posted on 3-4.

[goodmorning]

He has a habit of dodging questions. OK, let's do this then.

What is this supposed to mean?

GM

- I don't know how to read her until she reads the thread.

I've read 75% of the thread. Do you have 75% of a read on me?

I think it was the way the "Why?" came after the vote rather than after the quote. Like he needed an excuse for joining an rvs wagon. It just didn't seem to flow.

No it was rather a serious vote.

Which you oddly have yet to really explain, afaik.

And why do I have to explain Huntress's imagination?[/quote]
What you have to explain is your apparently serious vote. Stop dodging.

GM's OMGUS on MS is just bad. I'm willing to lynch her but I'd rather gain more in the day.

The definition of OMGUS: To suspect someone in reaction to their suspecting you.
I suspected Sonic. He then "suspected" me in direct reaction.
If either of us is OMGUSing, it's Sonic.

Apparently point 1 applies to npiaa as well as to Sonic.
So, too, point 4.

[goodmorning]

ew quotes why

[goodmorning]

Thanks to both of you for that.

[goodmorning]

@Shinobi: Maybe you could explain that sentence.
@Zeb: Why ISOs?

P-Edit: And why cop out on Josh and Peabody? They've posted more than the lurkers have.

[goodmorning]

Then I'll ask you at a later date.

[goodmorning]

I've thought about it and I have no idea what you think having me answer that question will accomplish.

Why ask it?

It will accomplish making you readable.

I don't see what it is about that statement that has made it so inexplicable for you.

[goodmorning]

What you have to explain is your apparently serious vote. Stop dodging.

It was a pressure vote. As far as I know. I can explain my vote whenever like to.

Yes, and when people ask you to and you refuse, it looks quite bad when the only reason you can manage after all that time is "pressure".

GM's OMGUS on MS is just bad. I'm willing to lynch her but I'd rather gain more in the day.

The definition of OMGUS: To suspect someone in reaction to their suspecting you.
I suspected Sonic. He then "suspected" me in direct reaction.
If either of us is OMGUSing, it's Sonic.

Apparently, your case against him consist of nothing besides his argument is (supposedly) wrong. THAT, is OGMUS

That is not what OMGUS is.
Are you even reading my posts?

GM you think MS is scum because he presented a bad case on you?

No. I think he's Scum because
1. He hasn't displayed any interest in the actual content of anyone's posts, preferring instead to substitute his own narrative over the actual words people are actually saying.
2. His attempts to control the game are incredibly manipulative (as are some of his posts).
3. His butting in at various times is annoying at best (implies scummy at worst).
4. He's failed to answer my questions to him or discuss my rebuttals of his case. Which then links back to 1 and the whole fucking cycle starts again.

And that's not even getting into whether he was or wasn't rolefishing, or anything he might have posted on 3-4.

It's not like those were posted a long time ago.

Okay, let's move on from the fact that I think that question is dumb and I'll give you an answer even though I really don't want to:

Because ISOing players during day 1 isn't going to produce much in the way of findings, especially when you can just read the thread and glean the exact same information but with better context. Using an ISO this early is needless busywork and it's just generally better to ask questions and play the game. Even if you didn't want to talk much, reading the thread is still better because looking at a pure ISO doesn't give you the same quality of read because of a lack of context.

And that isn't even getting into the fact that nothing of importance has actually warranted an ISO dive, in my opinion.

So how does this answer make me readable in any way? How does this help you figure out my alignment?

Why didn't you want to give me an answer?
It's bringing some of your thought process to the fore. It'll also be helpful later if I decide to meta you.

TOWN CASE for MS:
Option1. MS is a VT looking to get recruited into the mason thread.
Possibilities:
1. The masons believe him and recruit him, at the same time scum kills him.
2. The masons don't recruit him because he may be NK'd, so they choose someone else, and scum NK him.
3. The masons recruit MS and the scum kill someone else because they are trying to outwit the masons.

Option2. MS is a scum trying to out the Masons.
Possibilities:
1. The Masons attempt to recruit MS, their actions fail and MS is lynched as conf scum.
2. The Masons do not attempt to recruit MS, and it is impossible for him to get NK'd.

Option 3: MS is a Scum trying to get recruited in a suicide mission.
There are 3 Scum in this setup, and the sacrifice of 1 to
A. prevent the Masons from recruiting anyone
B. out one or both Masons with what amounts to a Cop guilty
would hardly be a stretch.
The Masons may only attempt to recruit once, so if it fails that's it. That's the problem with what you've put out there.

Also WIFOM doesn't really count as a Town case, but ok.

It kind of defeats the object of questioning someone if someone else answers first and provides an answer for the person who the question was directed at.

QFT.

I'm not liking NPAU right now. I think he is my #1 lynch for today.

I could see joining you.

@Josh271: Orrrr maybe he's not confident enough to come up with his own reads yet and thus steals them indiscriminately?

JoshB

:

Well, he's scumreading me. I don't like his logic on me, which I am answering later in this post, but that doesn't mean he's scum. 21 posts is a good amount considering he replaced in.

Peabody

:

Doesn't like me either. I strongly disagree with post 259, considering that I

actually did explain me read

. Does have a lot of content per post, but the logic is totally off.

Why does Peabody thinking you might be Scum mean he's Scum?

@npiau

: See? THAT is what you thought I was doing.
I'm not.

At any rate it's newb as all hell.

[goodmorning]

Toffee dude only plays micros.

:/

1. Why is this relevant?
2. No, I play only Micros.

[goodmorning]

Zebulin, What do you think about the interactions between NPAU and GM?

I feel like their argument against each other is the other person's argument is bad, which a bad argument and circular logic. My gut says it's town vs town, but I'm not 100% sure. (Well, no one is except the scum or if they're the 2 masons.)

What? I'm saying he's

not reading my fucking posts

.

His argument would be fine IF IT WAS BASED ON REALITY.

[goodmorning]

eyyyyy uct

long time no shout

[goodmorning]

My vote is still on her. I don't see a problem

This tunnel's getting older by the second. Please contribute relevance.

[goodmorning]

Working up a readslist.

[goodmorning]

^I agree.

[goodmorning]

Newb scums are obvious scums

Newb towns are vi

I don't think I agree with this.

For me it's mostly a tone thing - his general posting is pretty null.

Gimme something good.

He doesn't have anything good.

[goodmorning]

Technical difficulties, please hold.

[goodmorning]

If you consider something like a votecount to be similar to be a real post, then I sure have been posting elsewhere.

My technical difficulties have been resolved. Have restarted working on the reads. Wednesday is my at-school day, so I'm mildly tapped out atm but it should happen by/during tomorrow.

From what I remember of what I had before:
Zeb or whoever is in that slot is Town still, Sonic and npiau are still Scum.
Toffee and Mala lean Town.

[goodmorning]

Which is why your top (and only) 3 scumreads in your post 905 Suburban Warfare readslist were TOTALLY NOT ALL TOWN OR ANYTHING, NOPE.

And it's not like the majority of your votes in that game were on Town or anything, NUH-UH.

this is totally not a steaming pile of lies and bullshit everyone

fucking totally

[goodmorning]

I'm not the one who's falsely argued 100% efficacious scumlists.

And if you're calling post 900 "early game"... even for a Large, it really isn't.

[goodmorning]

GM

if you are town, indeed town, then do something other than defend yourself from Ms

I'm tryyyyingggggggggg

[goodmorning]

ahahahahahaha my wagon

shit looks sketch as fuck

[goodmorning]

Look, I have a life outside of mafia.

There are 6 people on my wagon and I only have townreads on 2 of them. uct is null and the rest look like scum to me.

When half the people on your wagon look like Scum, it makes you feel real good about yourself.

[goodmorning]

Short version of readslist, since everyone's so goddamned desperate and shit:
Town (L>G): Malakittens, BlueBloodedToffee, Scripten, Josh_B
Null (T>S): Huntress, Peabody, ucitron00
Scum (G>L): Metal Sonic, nopointinactingup, hephaestus

[goodmorning]

dave goes after Peabody, shinobi goes after uct

[goodmorning]

When half the people on your wagon look like Scum it means they've underestimated you.

[goodmorning]

Look, I have a life outside of mafia.

There are 6 people on my wagon and I only have townreads on 2 of them. uct is null and the rest look like scum to me.

When half the people on your wagon look like Scum, it makes you feel real good about yourself.

SO you don't see anything wrong with concluding there's 3 scum on your wagon? That's a lazy read to me and it proves that you're not trying to find out who scum is, meaning you're scum.

Yeahhhhhhh you're being ridiculous.

I had scumreads on you and Sonic long before my wagon, and my scumread on hephaestus is mainly based on him being 100% useless.

It's not "they're on my wagon, therefore Scum." It's "they're Scum, and, interestingly, they're on my wagon."

[goodmorning]

@MS & Mala

- Which one of 637, 639 and 640 made you suddenly feel like GM wasn't scum anymore?

MS, you have been pushing for a GM lynch pretty much all day, it's within your grasp, and you unvote? What is that about? Did somebody say earlier that GM/MS was a possible scum-team? I could see that.

Mala was second on the wagon as well and then she suddenly jumps off with no explanation. A bus gone wrong?

@GM

- What do you make of MS and Mala's actions?

To be honest I don't really know.
I've had my thoughts on the indicativeness of votes/unvotes shaken a bit recently.

This is a good enough post to make Scripten town if NPAU was lynched and flipped scum today.

Scripten is already Town, did you miss the memo?

EFFORT IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT

my scumread on hephaestus is mainly based on him being 100% useless.

You're a funny gal

When we talk about effort, we talk about frequency of posting and numbers/lengths of posts. Anything related to those is non-indicative.

When we talk about someone not contributing any content, that's scummy.

I'd like to see more from her, and this might be unfair, but it feels to me when I consider GM in this game, that she's in a constant state of not being current in the thread.

Nah, I'd call that fair. The worst should be over though.

[goodmorning]

To be honest I don't really know.
I've had my thoughts on the indicativeness of votes/unvotes shaken a bit recently.

Can you do any better than this?

If I could I would have.

Can you explain your town-read on Mala please?

Sure.

For a start, her first post reflects a lot of the same thoughts I'd been having up to that point, though I was pretty vocal about them.
The questions she's asked have been fairly on point.
The way she's engaging with the game is not the same as the way she engages as Scum. No, this is not a thing that's easy to fake.
She's visibly reassessed several times.
(Plus she could probably have pushed a lynch through on me without taking too much flak.)

[goodmorning]

For a start, her first post reflects a lot of the same thoughts I'd been having up to that point, though I was pretty vocal about them.
The questions she's asked have been fairly on point.
The way she's engaging with the game is not the same as the way she engages as Scum. No, this is not a thing that's easy to fake.
She's visibly reassessed several times.
(Plus she could probably have pushed a lynch through on me without taking too much flak.)

Sheeping you doesn't make her town.
Can you provide me some examples of her on point questioning.
Disregarding meta-read.
Who has she reassessed and how is this alignment indicative?

No, but having a similar thought process might.
Sure. 89 is full of them.
I'm sure you are, but it'd be dishonest of me not to mention it since it's a big part of my townread.
Zeb, me, Josh, just from what I remember. Scum tend to be a bit less malleable than Town. Reassessing displays 1)public thought process 2)genuine attempts to solve the game.

[goodmorning]

This game gets my fullest attention tomorrow.

Why did NPAU put GM to L-1? His vote moves around so much for such faulty reasons. Ugh.

SO you don't think I should wagon my scum read? I already mentioned why she's scum.

I'm going to point out that your "case" on me appears to be "I don't like 29, wah."

Yet your first vote on me, which came after 29, was "a pressure vote."

Interesting.

[goodmorning]

Gm best lynch, npau safest lynch

What in the flying fuck does that even mean?

that unvote.

I like this.

[goodmorning]

Minor readslist shakeups:
Town (L>G): Malakittens, Peabody, BlueBloodedToffee, Josh_B, Scripten
Null (T>S): Shinobi, dave, Huntress, ucitron00
Scum (G>L): Metal Sonic, nopointinactingup, hephaestus

[goodmorning]

being active

and making reasonable comments will do that to you.

The bold made me laugh. I can appreciate a good joke.

This I don't like.

[goodmorning]

No, but I think you've missed the point of Josh's post. Whether that's deliberate I don't know, but if it is it's disappointing.

[goodmorning]

Hmm, can you elaborate?

Yeah, he meant, I believe, that if Shinobi were to begin posting content and being active that it would make people townread him.
It would be disappointing to me if you were misrepping Josh deliberately because it would be quite scummy, and I don't want you to be Scum.

As to associatives before flips: the worst of them is that they can get distracting and entice you into a mindset that you'll hold fervently to even if a saner person would have admitted incorrectness.

[goodmorning]

Nothing I've seen so far makes me want Sonic lynched any less.

I'd like to see a bit more of Huntress, tbh.

Still waiting for dave to post something real.

GAME IN STASIS.

[goodmorning]

Explain Shinobi please?

[goodmorning]

So I guess the one I didn't notice leaves Shinobi back at the previous point of just a scum lean and near the top of that list. The reason it doesn't swing all the way to town for me is that scum could make the same point that Shinobi did in order to cast doubts on the townpeople on the NPAU wagon to deflect suspicion from a buddy.

I see. I don't agree but I do understand. Thanks for answering.

I wish the people I was unsure of would post a bit more. I'd like to know in particular what Huntress thinks of Mala at present.

[goodmorning]

The reason it doesn't swing all the way to town for me is that scum could make the same point that Shinobi did in order to cast doubts on the townpeople on the NPAU wagon to deflect suspicion from a buddy.

Do you see town motivation in Shinobi's posts, esp. the latest ones where he started stabbing at me?

You're joking, right?

[goodmorning]

In seriousness, there's something I really don't get here. When I get poked by people, my first reaction is "OK, explain, let's talk." It's not to instantly say "there's no Town motivation in this."

There's plenty of Town motivation in trying to figure out the game. So why panic-discredit?

[goodmorning]

I see some serious problems on both sides of the current 1v1, but more on this tomorrow.

[goodmorning]

I need to eat something, but main Shinobi problem: case a bit weak, reluctance to share not great. main uct problem: prodding people is absolutely not antitown and he needs to explain why he said that.

[goodmorning]

@GM: So what if my case was weak? I thought it was strong. I pushed it and I figured out I was wrong. What's the problem with that?

The main problem is the latter point, which you have apparently ignored: reluctance to share.

I had a lot of points on my case. Not just 29.

Yeahhhhhh, let me recap your 4-point case (634) on me:
1) I don't like 29.
2) She didn't read some pages but was still actively participating.
3) She voted someone she'd been calling Scum all game.
4) When asked to clarify her scumread, she did so, summing up the points she'd previously made in handy list form.

Bizarrely, I don't really find any of those to be valid points.

I need to eat something, but main Shinobi problem: case a bit weak, reluctance to share not great. main uct problem: prodding people is absolutely not antitown and he needs to explain why he said that.

It wasn't a prod, it was him saying "lets lynch this fuck"

You can't read his abrasive language and think it was a townie prodding for info

You don't think wagoning or threatening to wagon someone can get results that just questioning them can't?

And personally, I don't find it that abrasive. It's all just rhetoric, and I find that important to remember.

[goodmorning]

Actually I feel warm and fuzzy about this vote:

VOTE: goodmorning

Why are you nitpicking at the fight between uct and me? It looks and feels like you're trying to spread doubt because you didn't really draw any conclusions about what you were speculating on. What are your reads on us?

I literally do not know what you are talking about.

I will repeat: both of you don't come out of it well, you for failing to stand and deliver and he for calling a pro-town action scummy.

That said, my readslist currently stands here:
Town (L>G): Huntress, Malakittens, Josh_B, Peabody, BlueBloodedToffee, Scripten
Null (T>S): Shinobi, ucitron00, dave
Scum (G>L): Metal Sonic, nopointinactingup, hephaestus

My minor problems with the two of you are outweighed at this point by dave with his heavy-handed hinting here, and still more by my much harder scumreads on others; I wouldn't be interested in a lynch on either of you at this stage.

[goodmorning]

anyway, best way to figure out what anything regarding the gm wagon means is to lynch gm

this might be the dumbest thing i've ever read

and i've read twilight

@GM, in your read list you have Town L->G ans Scum G->L. What do L and G mean? Least and Greatest would fit but it would be strange to me to put them in that order.
Most significantly, which is most scummy for you, NPAU or MS?

It is least and greatest. They're in that order because they're in that order.

Sonic is scummier. If I thought npiau was scummier why would I still be voting Sonic?

[goodmorning]

Intent to hammer npiau. I'll be around at various times today so if anyone wants to say something, there's time in which to do so.

I literally do not know what you are talking about.

I will repeat: both of you don't come out of it well, you for failing to stand and deliver and he for calling a pro-town action scummy.

That said, my readslist currently stands here:
Town (L>G): Huntress, Malakittens, Josh_B, Peabody, BlueBloodedToffee, Scripten
Null (T>S): Shinobi, ucitron00, dave
Scum (G>L): Metal Sonic, nopointinactingup, hephaestus

My minor problems with the two of you are outweighed at this point by dave with his heavy-handed hinting here, and still more by my much harder scumreads on others; I wouldn't be interested in a lynch on either of you at this stage.

I'm not sure I can accept this as an answer. I gave my case, but I don't understand what your reasoning is that leads you to believe that putting off posting my case the way I did warrants a null read. If it's null, why don't you put more effort into figuring me out? Why aren't you interested in pressuring me to see why I did things the way I did? Did you draw any conclusions from the other posts I made earlier in the game? Where do you stand on those?

It's null because you've done some Town things and some Scum things. What makes you think I haven't put effort into figuring you out?
Do you think pressuring someone is the only way to garner reads?
I did.
As I said, some of the later ones leant Town. Why so curious?

[goodmorning]

I should probably read through the thread to find out who the masons are.

Can I just say how much I don't like this?

I don't like this. A lot.

[goodmorning]

Scripten was revealed as recruited mason, which means the masons have used up their one shot ability. (We can infer it is one-shot from the posted PM, right?)

So, exactly why would you not like the idea of finding out who they are? Two confirmed town would help.

What Josh said on the subject, which is weird because he's the one who was vaguely fishy but whatevs.

Uct and NPAU may be good wagons also. These are based on reading Scripten's ISO now that he be dead.

...
what.

No, no. It's more likely town would be this open about 'finding the masons' than scum.

Not necessarily. Josh is the type who would totally say that sort of thing as Scum.

[goodmorning]

So, GoodMorning, what do you think about yesterday's lynch? You said intent to hammer, but ended up not being on the wagon. Do you think the real hammer was a scum claim?

I don't think anything in particular about it.
No, why would I?

[goodmorning]

I feel like uct's done that before but it's been a long time since we played.

I should go look that up.

[goodmorning]

Sorry you're Scum and I have to get you lynched Wisdom

it's ok, we can still be fraaaannnssss

On a more serious note, what would Josh have gained from trying to divert a wagon at deadline? (@Shinobi)

[goodmorning]

On a more serious note, what would Josh have gained from trying to divert a wagon at deadline? (@Shinobi)

He doesn't have to be a part of a bad wagon.

Hence nobody can call him out for lynching town.

I meant that you said "if you really thought he was Town then why didn't you try to make his wagon go away?"
I'm asking: what would he have gained, as each alignment, from trying to make the npiau wagon go away at that point in time?

Sorry you're Scum and I have to get you lynched Wisdom

Interesting, I'd expect you to try and read me to confirm your read since you know me and I recall you saying you can read me pretty well.

You don't seem interested in that.

Look, Sonic was Scum. I'm pretty sure of that. I can read you once you post a little more but I think I know what it's going to be.

You did nothing to stop a wagon on someone you thought could have been Mason at one point. You became less sure of his lynch as his wagon grew, yet, you did

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT IT

. Instead, you decided to 'Watch the clock and thread', which does not come from a town perspective.

Same question I asked Shinobi, now to you:
I'm asking: what would he have gained, as each alignment, from trying to make the npiau wagon go away at that point in time?

[goodmorning]

I'm asking: what would he have gained, as each alignment, from trying to make the npiau wagon go away at that point in time?

He wasn't trying to make the wagon go away.

Did you read my case?

Let me rephrase the question:
If he had tried to make the wagon go away, what would he have gained, as each alignment?

Look, Sonic was Scum. I'm pretty sure of that. I can read you once you post a little more but I think I know what it's going to be.

Well, you're wrong. So the only thing setting up a tunnel on me does is making me think I've been right in scumreading you.

If you think I'm setting up a tunnel on you you might want to go check the D1 VCs.

[goodmorning]

You, for the purposes of this game, are Sonic. You replaced into his slot. The slot's role has not changed. I said I'd be happy to read you. I said I wouldn't find a Scum result unexpected.

That's it.

[goodmorning]

I'd reeeeeeaalllyyyyyy like it if Toffee would answer my question, yeah?

[goodmorning]

@Toffee: Like, really really. You may feel it is a small detail, I do not.

[goodmorning]

TOFFEE FFS WHY

[goodmorning]

@Toffee/Shinobi: If [dave/Josh] had tried to save npiau, what would he gain as Town? As Scum?

IT IS ACTUALLY AN IMPORTANT QUESTION OK

[goodmorning]

It's an important hypothetical question which I am happy to explain the purpose of once you've both answered it.

[goodmorning]

There's quite a lot of point. You claim that if he really thought npiau was Town he should have done something about it. I want to know what you think he'd have gained if he had.

I really need you to answer it.

[goodmorning]

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh

[goodmorning]

I'm asking you specifically, what would Josh have gained from trying to save npiau? Please stop dodging the question.

[goodmorning]

No, you didn't answer the question. I asked "what does hypothetical Josh gain from trying to save npiau?" You responded "I just have a problem with the fact that he distanced from the wagon."
That is an answer to a question, but not to the question that I asked.

[goodmorning]

I literally hate everything. It's genuinely important and you all just go "oh, it's a hypothetical, it doesn't matter"

IT FUCKING MATTERS, OK

Let me answer it, since you don't seem to want to:
npiau was going to be lynched. It was close to deadline, and he was the wagon that was up enough to get there.
As Scum, you don't fight the wagon because you want him lynched and you don't want to look like you knew he was Town.
As Town, you don't fight the wagon because a lynch on Town is better then no lynch at all, plus you can't be certain you're right - maybe the people who put the wagon at L-1 are on to something.

So, if either of them is Scum, why admit to not finding npiau scummy at the last moment?

[goodmorning]

As Scum, you don't fight the wagon because you want him lynched and you don't want to look like you knew he was Town

. As scum, you don't want to come across like you're on a bad lynch, so you pretend to second-guess yourself to gain credibility that you really feel the wagon you're on is wrong but you have no option but to stay on it.

As Town, you don't fight the wagon because a lynch on Town is better then no lynch at all, plus you can't be certain you're right - maybe the people who put the wagon at L-1 are on to something.

As town, if you think the wagon really is bad, you try to steer town elsewhere onto somebody who you're scum-reading. You trust in your own reads more than anybody else's because you

know

you're town and you cannot be certain of anybody else.

My thoughts ^^

If someone being Town made them right then everyone would have a 100% Town winrate. Trusting your own reads is important, but treating them as infallible is downright dangerous.
If there isn't time to move wagons (which I'd say there wasn't) then trying to do so is unhelpful. dave did have no option but to stay on it, whether or not he genuinely felt it was bad. Why are you so convinced that he would only have done so as Scum?

I literally hate everything. It's genuinely important and you all just go "oh, it's a hypothetical, it doesn't matter"

IT FUCKING MATTERS, OK

Let me answer it, since you don't seem to want to:
npiau was going to be lynched. It was close to deadline, and he was the wagon that was up enough to get there.
As Scum, you don't fight the wagon because you want him lynched and you don't want to look like you knew he was Town.
As Town, you don't fight the wagon because a lynch on Town is better then no lynch at all, plus you can't be certain you're right - maybe the people who put the wagon at L-1 are on to something.

So, if either of them is Scum, why admit to not finding npiau scummy at the last moment?

It's not a hypothetical. Josh came up with another wagon 24 hours before deadline which had no chance of convincing anyone. Where's any kind of motivation for it? All you're pointing to is the fact that voting on the NPAU wagon makes sense if you're town

or

scum. If neither of those answers are satisfactory in terms of finding out why he did what he did, then why are you listing two completely different scenarios which don't explain his actions at all?

OK, first of all, Sonic was MY wagon, not Josh's.
Second: my point is that one can eliminate the Scum motivation

when we answer the question in the last line of my post

. What do we have left? Town.

I gave a naked read that scum could be found in {BBT, Mala, Josh}. The point of that read was actually to find out which of them went ballistic and which brushed it off. Ever heard of a reaction test?

BBT wins the grand prize by going ballistic. Can I get some support please?

Nope. I think if it were actually a reaction test you'd have opened the day with it.

[goodmorning]

Unless your point is that bbt's bullshit don't make dave scum, in which case I fully agree.

That's definitely not how I'd play it as any alignment, and the above was precisely my point.

Hmmmmm.

[goodmorning]

Oh, @Toffee: Yes he does.

[goodmorning]

oh god i am so confused

@Shinobi: look, maybe i just don't think anything of vca stuff.
i find it interesting that you and toffee have such similar yet different thoughts here; toffee feels dave didn't do enough, you think josh did too much.

[goodmorning]

Wisdom is Town.

My entire view of the game is now utterly fucked.

Rereading.

[goodmorning]

let me finish rereading dammit

[goodmorning]

Scum don't need to read.

Choose...defend your buddy or bus him.

Go!

Everyone needs to read. Why are you trying to rush a lynch?

[goodmorning]

SIX PAGES

I AM TRYING TO READ

I HAVE SCHOOL WEDNESDAYS

WHY

Hmm, I was starting to think Josh was town as well.

More due to Pea's vote on him though. If he's bussing, he's fooled me for now.

VOTE: Peabody

lolololololololololololol what

BBT, why are you pretending to scumread Wisdom?

I laughed so hard when I read this question.

SO HARD.

GM is hardly playing so I can't question her.

What questions do you have? ASK AWAYYYYY

Not voting(5):Malakittens, hephaestus, gooodmorning, Huntress

I don't want to pressure anyone into making a decision, but this vote count looks like we're in mylo.

well i am ALMOST DONE

GET EXCITE

I want to see a hell of a lot more from Mala after her V/LA. Those posts were awful.

More from GM aswell.

I was trying to think of some polite way to say, "then stop shitting up the thread while I'm in class, christ on a unicycle" but politeness escapes me at the moment.

I've got like 15 pages left, not counting 62-68 which I've just read and so probably won't reread in my reread.

[goodmorning]

I was trying to think of some polite way to say, "then stop shitting up the thread while I'm in class, christ on a unicycle" but politeness escapes me at the moment..

What? How am I 'shitting' up the thread? At least I'm trying to solve the fucking game. So many people are jus coasting/lurking/cba it's ridiculous

I don't see as much "solving" from you as I have in the past. I do see a bit of "this is how the game is, deal with it" but that's not the same thing at all.

Wisdom is definitely Town though, so...

[goodmorning]

@Toffee: I'm on a 5-game streak of correctly reading Wisdom. I'll grant that he was gone for a while, but I feel pretty good about it. I'll probably have a small paranoid meltdown in a little bit, but I feel OK about it right now.

Why is everyone's play so diametrically opposite D1 vs D2? I'm having a really hard time reconciling any of my reads between days.

That said, my current reads:
Town (L>G): Malakittens, Josh_B, Peabody, dave, Wisdom
Null (S>T): Shinobi, ucitron00, Huntress
Scum (G>L): BlueBloodedToffee, hephaestus

LET'S TALK

[goodmorning]

Caught up?

Why is Shinobi null and not scum? Like your reads otherwise

Shinobi is more of a lean-Scum than full Scum for me. Mainly it's the contrast between his case against Josh and Toffee's on dave; "why did Josh get off the wagon?" is a much better question than "why didn't dave try to start a new wagon?"
A few of his later D1 posts also give me some pause.
Then there's that I'm not so certain that 2 Scum would make such a similar argument, and I'm more inclined to think Toffee is Scum than Shinobi (though associatives before flips are not particularly valid).

I keep forgetting this, but Toffee didn't ask me about 1277. I don't know why it bothers me so much but it really does.

[goodmorning]

I have so many problems with that question.

[goodmorning]

Then don't.

[goodmorning]

Shinobi is more of a lean-Scum than full Scum for me. Mainly it's the contrast between his case against Josh and Toffee's on dave; "why did Josh get off the wagon?" is a much better question than "why didn't dave try to start a new wagon?"
A few of his later D1 posts also give me some pause.
Then there's that I'm not so certain that 2 Scum would make such a similar argument, and I'm more inclined to think Toffee is Scum than Shinobi (though associatives before flips are not particularly valid).

So...What constitutes the scum-lean?

Aside from you taking advantage of the back-and-forth between triton and me.

Just because your posts are better than Toffee's doesn't mean they're necessarily good.
If by "taking advantage" you mean "noticed me putting in a lackluster amount of content, failing to justify a case, and (apparently randomly) deciding uct was Town," then yes, I definitely took advantage of your posts with uct, which should totally not be treated as game-relevant or anything, nope.

@Josh: Anti-Town does not necessarily equal Scum.

Vote: Toffee

[goodmorning]

@Wisdom: You'll have my vote if/when it's needed. I just want to hear a little more from Huntress and Mala before tomorrow.

[goodmorning]

I had a question for Mala but forgot. I'll try and remember while we wait for Nero to catch up.

@Josh: Nobody really doubts that Toffee is Scum. That is, however, an interesting observation.

[goodmorning]

this doesn't really excuse you joining a wagon your scum-read is leading.

Side note: I hate this logic.

Still waiting on Nero. Anything?

[goodmorning]

Because you're Scum?

[goodmorning]

guys ffs what are we waiting for

Uh, Nero, I think.

You're sure you want Shinobi over Toffee?

[goodmorning]

Yeah, fuck reasoning for lynching people.

Who needs that shit.

This is lovely considering your uct thing earlier.

[goodmorning]

(and by lovely i mean massively hypocritical)

[goodmorning]

Shinobi's frustration looks real, which is why I'm not voting him.

Explain pls.

[goodmorning]

Peabody is Town. I look forward to seeing what Aegor has to say.

[goodmorning]

BBT is scum hunting.

This statement is questionable.

[goodmorning]

I'm waiting for Aegor to post.

It's very easy to ask people to contribute, isn't it? I bet you think it makes you look busy.

[goodmorning]

I'm not busy?

You're right. I should start trying to question people or present cases or something...

If only I could express my scumread on Toffee or - oh, wait. I already have.

It's cute that you're trying this though.

[goodmorning]

1732
1523
1226
1170
All deal with the basic issues that define Why Toffee Is Scum.

[goodmorning]

I wouldn't answer your hypothetical question. This doesn't make me scum.

Not answering questions is not a pro-Town action.

I argued your second point in 1236

I'm sure you did.

Rush a lynch? We had already had a week's worth of discussion. How is that rushing?

We had 2 weeks left, a player or 2 on V/LA, and a playerslot up for replacement. It's definitely rushing.

Aaaaaand meta. No comment. Nobody reads me correctly using meta, it's actually quite funny.

This rings a little flat to me.

[goodmorning]

WOW

SO SCUMHUNTING

SUCH SCATHE

WOW

[goodmorning]

GM is hella scummy, especially for 210, which is essentially OMGUS. Moreover, she kept defensively responding to attacks instead of actually reading the two pages that she claimed she had yet to read. That always looks bad to me because it indicates a priority of defense over scumhunting.

Sonic was pushing a bad tunnel. That it happened to be on me was besides the point.
I kept responding to current posts rather than go back and read because responding to current posts is more helpful in keeping the game moving. For some strange reason, I don't like it when games get stalled out.

In other news, I love how Toffee keeps trying to make himself the victim. It's 3000% hilarious.

[goodmorning]

wazzup y'all.

Got through page 20. BBT's 474 has made me pretty sure he is town, even if Mala satisfactorily responded.

NPAU was on my scumlist for flying under the radar, but then he got lynched later. I assume it was because of that, but I guess I will see.

Given the current wagons, I would much rather lynch Peabody. GM is also hella scummy.

bitch pls

Toffee stopped being Town the second D2 started happening


I won't vote for Peabody.

[goodmorning]

You were in my first game but I thought we had a Micro more recently. Apparently I was mistaken.

[goodmorning]

But that hephaestus slot (nero cain) logic to not get onto the wagon is ridiculous. Scum read on heph (especially for that one terrible finger point he put back there on day.... day whatever that was).

Other to joust avoid a nl, why should I join a wagon with mt biggest scumread on it? Do you often join wagons with your scumreads on it?

You shouldn't vote Peabody because he's Town, but if what's stopping you is a scumread being on the wagon... well, Scum can bus. I've never ever understood people not joining a wagon just because they scumread one person on it.

[goodmorning]

Wisdom was Town therefore Aegor is Town. Effort, whether in reading the game, posting about the game, or anything else, is not indicative of alignment.

Vote: Toffee

Can we please get back on track here?

[goodmorning]

With 4 to lynch and 3 Scum alive I don't see a Mason voting first, not even if they think there's been a scumslip or 5.

Anyone got a CC? Toffee, you have crumbs to back that up?

[goodmorning]

Depends on if someone CCs you or not. If not, I need to reread.

[goodmorning]

Seeing as you're my top scumread, quite a bit hinges on whether you are or are not Scum.

[goodmorning]

I just told you I'm the Mason.

And I'm saying I'm not sure I believe you.

Assuming Wisdom is town, which if I remember correctly, everybody and their cat was town-reading him, then this means we have an all town wagon on Josh.

All-Town wagons mean little. I haven't done the stats for Opens, but in Newbie games 8% of all lynchwagons are all-Town on Town. I'll grant that a full 23% of lynchwagons in Newbies are all-Town on Scum, but that means more than a quarter of all-Town lynchwagons are on Town.

[goodmorning]

All town-wagons usually point to scum.

I've literally just told you that it isn't as indicative as you seem to think it is.

[goodmorning]

What on earth are you talking about?

[goodmorning]

Aegor is Town.

[goodmorning]

1. VCA doesn't work like you're trying to make it work.
2. You're making a LOT of assumptions there.

[goodmorning]

Aegor could still CC you.

[goodmorning]

Well in that case I need a reread. I don't have my computer right now so we'll see how fast that can go.

[goodmorning]

I have returned to my computer and will be rereading shortly.

[goodmorning]

VCA this. VCA that. VCA Everything. VCA is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE VCA. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.

[goodmorning]

Slowly. I've had SO MUCH READING to do and this game is pretty low comparatively on my priority list.
I keep having to take breaks from reading too or else I find myself forward 10 pages with no memory of what happened in them.

[goodmorning]

And this is the part where I bring up the tired point that "stalling" isn't alignment-indicative for me, per Shadows and Lights where VT-me delayed making a single case for a whole month.

I don't have a read on Josh at present; I've thrown everything out.

[goodmorning]

It's not like you can't look it up. If you want to cast aspersions there are better ways to do it.

[goodmorning]

So, I was doing some stats, and conveniently now have the ones for Opens ready to go. So:
In Opens, 14.39% of lynchwagons are solely comprised of Town. 36.84% of those all-Town wagons are on townies, a percentage which is surprisingly a lot higher than in Newbies.
The data set for these stats is all Open games that have ended in this calendar year (31, thus far).
You can find all this in the stats thread I put up for just this purpose.

So assuming that all 5-6 of those possibly all-town wagons you've picked out are on Scum is immensely silly.

[goodmorning]

How about instead of producing these lovely stats, you start contributing something?

I mean, you keep promising it but it never comes.

We'll see if I'm right at the end of the game. I have explained why I think people are town and why this makes those people on certain wagons scum.

There are nearly 100 pages for me to go through, it's not going to be quick.

VCA is a decent scumhunting tool. Its not as perfect as Titus and DGB make it out to be but I pretty much hate GM arguing against that.

It's really not that useful, to be honest.
You can't make the assumption that a certain wagon is going to be a certain way/composed of a certain demographic.

Vote: Josh

Anyway, so we should all argue about VCA more sometime.

[goodmorning]

Oh Toffee.

Anyways, there are people who deliberately manipulate VCA as Scum, like lining up all Scum in a row on the same wagon and suchlike. Scum know there's an expectation about how many will be predicted on and how many will be predicted off. You know what they say, as soon as site meta is known people will manipulate it until the opposite becomes site meta, and so on. It's cyclical or something.

[goodmorning]

4 votes indeed.

So what do you think about VCA Josh? Like it? Loathe it? Don't care?

[goodmorning]

PERFECT WIN AWW YISS

I got so apathy though.

Why were people calling gm/huntress town all game?

Fuck if I know.

I wish this had ended sooner 'cause Wisdom was all bragging in the Hydra Micro that he knew what gm-scum looked like and I just wanted to be like "bitch pls wisdom"

I mean, I was Scum there, but still.

@Mod: You did fine. Accommodating, pleasant, etc.

[goodmorning]

I felt really bad for Toffee, but not so bad that I didn't start completely trolling.

[goodmorning]

Ha gm gotcha

tbqh the only thing that I wouldn't also have done as town was get as frustrated as I got, but good on you. Actually that's pretty much the whole reason I got as frustrated as I got.

I felt really bad for Toffee, but not so bad that I didn't start completely trolling.

Yeah, I definitely felt his frustration. I got really lethargic during day 1 and day 2 and I think it showed, and I was still one of the more active players in the game.

That was bad.

Just goes to show what an apathetic Town will let happen. If you're Town you have a duty to be active so the Scum can't hide amongst lurkers.
Toffee not claiming when he was run up was a little surprising to us. We assumed if he was a Mason that he would have, so more fool us because when I put it that way it looks super obvious.

From our discussion last night:
Huntress: Who do you think is most likely [to be a Mason]?
goodmorning: Shinobi maybe? I have no idea. I just feel like Toffee, with a large wagon and a nearness to deadline, might have yelled about being a mason, insulted everyone, and peaced out. He was not calm.
But if the two of you think it's so then I will concede that I haven't been so much reading Toffee's posts as calculating my own to enrage him.

[goodmorning]

Scumteam, were there any slips or scummy things that we should have picked up on? I did not strongly suspect any of you.

nya was pretty blatantly scum and heph wasn't great but Nero managed to get that slot respected enough. Huntress flew INCREDIBLY under the radar without anyone noticing. I was trolling Toffee pretty hard.
So any of those things should probably have been noticed but weren't.

[goodmorning]

On deadlines: Have you considered a conditional deadline? I tend to do (#players + 1) days, with a minimum deadline of a week.