Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[droog]

VOTE: wgeurts

Also if I accidentally use the name Keely it's referring to Cheetory6 and the name Young refers to YYR. Be back after dinner.

Cheetory, do you think this clarification is more likely to come from townJohnny or scumJohnny?

??????????????????? why

say things to start discussions but
if you say stupid things you will start stupid discussions

VOTE: cheetory

driving up 2 wagons instead of one

[droog]

wait yyr is two of those votes so it doesnt matter

[droog]

Hi Dys. What's droog talking about?

Why wguts over Cheetory?

I think he wanted two wagons instead of one, and then realized a vote was not where he initially thought. And then he made som insinuation that YYR was initiating stupid discussion by asking the thingy that was the thingy about you. I don't know why he thought it was stupid. And I don't know if I intepreted it correctly (he will hopefully shed more light on it himself). I like punctuation. And I miss my nickname, but Dys is cool.^^

I have no answer to that just now.

I counted 3 votes on wgeurys and 2 on Cheetos and wanted to tie
Then I realized yyr was 2 of those


Also his first

[droog]

Question was dumber than autocorrect

[droog]

VOTE: wgeurts

Also if I accidentally use the name Keely it's referring to Cheetory6 and the name Young refers to YYR. Be back after dinner.

Cheetory, do you think this clarification is more likely to come from townJohnny or scumJohnny?

Pretend Cheetos have a direct answer. Then what?

1) a discussion about how useless meta is
2) a discussion of Johnny's past meta
3) a throwaway answer that leads nowhere
4) someone calls it dumb

^my best guess. I can't imagine any useful scumhunting coming from that question

[droog]

Then why did you opt for option #4?

Because I had nothing better to say

[droog]

Do you?

[droog]

It was a hypothetical to explain why yyr's question was pointless

Not for why I voted you.

[droog]

Droog

- You wanted to tie up the wagons, but then realized your count was wrong. Do you have a reason for keeping your vote on Cheetor now?

Firstly, I don't understand the point of bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning,

the answer to both
early run ups make nice examinations

yyr: move on from your question. what do you think of thor's entrance?

[droog]

yyr: move on from your question. what do you think of thor's entrance?

More votes on wagon are super neat.

deep breath
*sigh*

do you think thor looks town or scum
a thor read is not valid unless it is on someone who is not thor

[droog]

I don't like that Blair has exclusively townreads this early.

Heyo Thor Cheetory is a boy.

blair explains why she has townreads
you don't explain why you have a dys scumread

please dazzle me with your dys case

[droog]

*Picks up the axe and chops off the head*
VOTE: Cheetory
Majority reached, man I love waking up.

[droog]

this game sat in sign-ups for how long?
3 weeks?

[droog]

VOTE: wgeurts

this one's on principle

[droog]

with 2/10 scum we have 6 mislynches to lose

[droog]

i was thinking we could use 4

[droog]

If that's your line of questioning, that's awful.

we have five mislynches left

i would rather have five mislynches than six with someone who will quickhammer

[droog]

Acryon

I pointed out yyr's lame question /because/ there was nothing better
It's not a contradiction because the first caused the second

I would rather be honest about a dumb question than pretend its in any way helpful
At risk of being the "I got us out of RVS guy"
Me calling the question provoked more discussion than the question

I'm null on Blair. Blair v Thor looks like semantics
Liked actions entrance

Leaning town on Thor

[droog]

In post 83, droog wrote:
In post 73, YYR wrote:
In post 63, droog wrote:
yyr: move on from your question. what do you think of thor's entrance?

More votes on wagon are super neat.


deep breath
*sigh*

do you think thor looks town or scum
a thor read is not valid unless it is on someone who is not thor

What do you mean by this last bit? o.o

normal mafiascum play is to announce
often without prompting
that thor is a 'thor read'.

this would tell me nothing
it would tell me something if yyr had a thor read on someone who was *not* thor
we could extend this to all players site wide

for example i have a not_mafia read on thor

[droog]

I didn't buy 106 from Blair. 103 seemed like trying to make the post from Droog look worse than it was, something scum likes to do.

Long-story short - I don't think she is asking any particularly tough questions, especially outside of the conversation with Thor. It seems like she's jumping on opportunities to earn easy town-points.

post 106 was a question
so which is it?

blair is not asking tough questions, or she is asking questions that are too tough?

[droog]

@Droog, why do you read Thor as to

thor made an interesting choice by holding the cheetos wagon at L-1
lots of players would have backed off, especially after cheetory started posting longform

it would have been very easy to back off the lynch and suck up town credit for it

[droog]

i have some other reasons but they're all of the form of things i wouldnt use in public

like when you're playing a f2f game and you realize your friend has to be scum
how do you articulate that? "joe's holding his coffee cup too tightly for him to be town?"

i think thor has dodged a few opportunities this game to steal easy town credit. ergo, town.

[droog]

point me to the opportunities you mean
there's been too much back and forth about logic for me to care

i thought thor and blair both had good points about whatever their argument started about

[droog]

ehhhhhhhhhhh

i could see 103 from scum but
if blair thought i meant that wgeurts is town and we should lynch him blair's question makes sense

110 and the vote looks fine to me
wgeurts is getting lynched no matter what
that was the immediate conclusion of day 2

what kind of town credit does scum blair pick up by bussing?
or why does scum blair need to vote on a sure lynch?

the vote is null at best

[droog]

with 2/10 scum we have 6 mislynches to lose

i was thinking we could use 4

If that's your line of questioning, that's awful.

we have five mislynches left

i would rather have five mislynches than six with someone who will quickhammer

from the first 2 posts its reasonable to assume i meant
"wgeurts is town lets lynch him anyways"

frankly i could go either way on wgeurtrs
classic dumb townie or newb scum

but i dont want to go into another l-1 with someone who is willing to quickhammer

[droog]

mafiascum ate my post hang on

[droog]

I'm not getting your angle here.

"Scum can do X to avoid suspicion" + "PlayerY did X" = "I find PlayerY suspicious"

I disagree, but it isn't

that

irrational. Saying someone did something to avoid notice is not invalidated by having noticed it.

[...]

Thor is conclusion-jumping, but it's very early game and I'm having a hard time discerning how serious he actual was.

So you feel a strong urge to stand up for and defend this town read, i take it?

Yes, but not for it's own sake - it was more interesting to me that you appeared to be attacking poor logic... illogically.

Do you consider defense of early town reads pro town? Why/why not?

As much so as at any other point in the game, yes. Is the fact that it's "early" relevant?

Also, to answer your defense, she basically pointed out that wagon analysis is wifom - and then proceeded to suggest she could read a wagon enough to vote. That *does* seem to lack internal logic to me as a response. You may continue your defense of her with this clarification from me if you wish.

I must have missed where she called it WIFOM - I thought she was asserting she could read it?

Regardless, do you find a "lack of internal logic" a reliable early scumtell?

I find I'm the opposite - I would expect in the earliest stages of the game that scum would generally be the most logical, not the least. It is at this juncture that their information advantage is at its height, and their options are the most diverse - they have the luxury of choosing the scumreads that will sound the most reasonable and running with them, while Town tend to dive in with whatever cases they actually believe with little regard for their reception.

in the context of everything blair said that one quote doesnt look bad
the general trend of blairs response to you is definitely not an avocado

but i like this game where we replace words with different words and pretend they mean the same thing
thor, your case makes a lot of sense*

*which in my new special language means no sense at all

[droog]

you see blair attacking you and then denying she was ever attacking you

i see blair criticizing, reaching out, and explaining in equal parts

I disagree, but it isn't that irrational. Saying someone did something to avoid notice is not invalidated by having noticed it.
[/quote

explain what you think this means

Regardless, do you find a "lack of internal logic" a reliable early scumtell?

heres blair asking for clarification

I find I'm the opposite - I would expect in the earliest stages of the game that scum would generally be the most logical, not the least. It is at this juncture that their information advantage is at its height, and their options are the most diverse - they have the luxury of choosing the scumreads that will sound the most reasonable and running with them, while Town tend to dive in with whatever cases they actually believe with little regard for their reception.

blair did more than just attack you mate

your case is built on 68 and 108
68 covers a lot more than you make it sound
for someone attacking you she neglected to bring any attacks

"I must have missed where she called it WIFOM - I thought she was asserting she could read it?"

does not sound like someone attacking you

p-edit will read blairs posts next

[droog]

thor your case is built on a small part of blair
the idea that she was attacking you is laughable reading the full of 68

[droog]

actualy wait

P-edit: @Thor: I don't think Cheetory has to be logical for you to be illogical.

I didn't understand the leap from "you seem to be contradicting yourself in the same paragraph" to "You are essentially claiming scum" and I still don't.

P-edit: @Thor: I don't think Cheetory has to be logical for you to be illogical.

I didn't understand the leap from "you seem to be contradicting yourself in the same paragraph" to "You are essentially claiming scum" and I still don't.

this is 84 which you did not quote
shes already asked you to elaborate on your logic and then you reply

Explain my illogic then. Because if the above is it I fail to see how you can justify calling something you don't understand 'illogical'.

[droog]

droog, let's chat.

What do you think of shaddowez?

this is the first time ive given a thought to shaddow
if hes said anything meaningful so far i havent remembered it. going to look through

[droog]

looking at his iso i dont remember anything of his because he hasnt said anything worth remembering

[droog]

so is there anyone not willing to lynch wgeurts?

i would like to hear any cases against. if you dont have one, hammer.
we need to move on.

[droog]

what can we do in day 2 we cant do in day 3?
whereas the sooner day 2 is over the sooner we're free to not vote wgeurts

[droog]

thor

this is a textbook semantic wall argument
no one will decipher it all
classic town v. town tactics

which only makes me wonder if you're both scum. probably not.

am doing an iso of blair to elaborate on before

p-edit

this discussion is getting lamer by the post

[droog]

thor

this is a textbook semantic wall argument
no one will decipher it all
classic town v. town tactics

which only makes me wonder if you're both scum. probably not.

am doing an iso of blair to elaborate on before

p-edit

this discussion is getting lamer by the post

[droog]

thor everytime you refer to cheetory as 'her' while arguing with a female it only becomes harder to understand which sentence goes where

[droog]

there is so much of this crap in both your iso's im going to quote whatever i think will pacify you thor

[droog]

Explain my illogic then. Because if the above is it I fail to see how you can justify calling something you don't understand 'illogical'.

Not understanding someone's logic is generally how I recognize poor logic, yes. It was also an invitation for you to explain that leap to me. Are you declining, or is it so self-evident that you don't feel it's necessary?

I'll explain it as soon as you explain to me how

"I don't understand your logic, I'd love you to explain it" became "Thor's attack is illogical"

until I forced you to explain it.

you got the chronology backwards

Firstly, I don't understand the point of bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning, especially since it seems to me like most of the players here seem experienced enough to know that bandwagon analysis can be useful for town. Why would scum not simply position themselves on a wagon in such a way that will protect them from the general analysis players apply to bandwagons? Unless the point is just to put pressure on someone? Which, again, scum equally stands to benefit from safe bandwagon votes for the sake of appearing to be playing protown.

droog's vote on me stands out as the most likely candidate for scum posing as a protown player for adding momentum to a wagon without really doing anything else, which reads as coasting to me. By extension, I'm also not particularly a fan of Dys's vote, but I feel worse about droog's. Droog also calls YYR's questioning of me bad scumhunting which almost makes me feel like he finds YYR more questionable than me and thus makes his vote on me for purely bandwagon's sake even more questionable.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. But you're pointing out that bandwagoning isn't helpful because scum can place themselves on bandwagons in a way to avoid suspicion.
You then vote Droog for the reasoning of "his position on the bandwagon looks suspicious"

I feel like I *must* be reading this wrong, because if I'm not I feel like you just claimed scum. Discuss?

I'm not getting your angle here.

"Scum can do X to avoid suspicion" + "PlayerY did X" = "I find PlayerY suspicious"

I disagree, but it isn't

that

irrational. Saying someone did something to avoid notice is not invalidated by having noticed it.

Cheetory is looking pretty Town to me right now - not terribly pro-town, but Town.

the first thing blair says against you is exactly why she doesnt like your logic

[droog]

Like...your case is so empty here. What is your boggle, where is the other support that I was being hard line? Where is the other evidence to show my belief was hard line? Where's the beef here?

i think youre really mistaken to call anything blair has said against you a case

actually, blair, im interested to know what your current thor read is

p-edit

thor i thought it was clear from the start that blair thought your logic was bad because you equated cheetory's bad logic on me to a scum claim

i think half the resulting kerfuffle is about how serious that original remark was

[droog]

have fun you crazy couple you

[droog]

Scummy:
YYR- I'd like to emphasize hard that this is NOT a solid scumread, it's just... it's about equal parts gut and the phrasing in posts #53 and #99 that just ever so slightly worry me. It's not much, but YYR's the only player who, to my eyes, has not done anything particularly townish while giving me a gut feeling on them of scum.

i feel the same way
if only because yyr's passes at scumhunting were so disappointing

would you lynch after wgeurts?
(if you're reading this i give you permission to hammer btw)

[droog]

I like Dys right now, but it could be the avatar.

I quick hammered because he already had 6 votes and I was impatient and am

new to mafia on this forum

I'm not buying the bolded part. Unless you've never, ever played mafia before, the theory should be the same wherever you played. Just because you're new on this forum isn't an excuse to quickhammer.

VOTE: wgeurts

I believe that's L-1.

in iso these are the only two reads of yours i found


please provide me with your list of reads before i decide you dont have one
because you dont have reads
because youre not scumhunting
because youre scum

[droog]

ehhhhhhhhhhh

i could see 103 from scum but
if blair thought i meant that wgeurts is town and we should lynch him blair's question makes sense

But obviously you didn't think wgeurts was town, because otherwise why would you want to lynch him? There's a big difference between "Not sure if he is town or scum, but he is worth lynching," and "I think he is town, and we should lynch him anyway." Your post clearly conveyed the former and she tried to insinuate the latter.

what kind of town credit does scum blair pick up by bussing?

I don't think she is bussing; I already said I think only one of them is scum.

or why does scum blair need to vote on a sure lynch?

the vote is null at best

I think it was opportunistic.

Nobody was really questioning wgeurts just yet, so she jumped in to start it.

In a vacuum, this isn't scummy, but in the context of her other posts, I think it is.

@the last part

huh? blair purposefully did not jump on wgeurts first chance she got
i think you have to reinvent several words to conclude that blair holding off makes her the one jumping in

[droog]

dyslexicon

reads list please

[droog]

ive been pretty clear i find you town, blair null, and yyr null-scum

[droog]

i think i said earlier blair was null
your exchange was a classic town v town exchange
still null on blair, maybe null-town?

sure but my yyr goal isnt huge. i want to hear more from dyslex and shaddowez
gut feeling after day 1 tells me there's scum somewhere in yyr/dyslex/shaddowez

[droog]

since nm took the trouble to send us all pms

VOTE: yyr

what do you think of everything thats gone down

[droog]

when did that wall get there and why did it not tell me before i posted. reading.

[droog]

You read town to me.
Thor reads more town, but I still want to investigate him further because my feels said to D1.
I'm worried that Blair is purposfully derailing with useless things. And I'm also worried about her lack of commenting for me having town feels on her (I think I stated this earlier, possibly more than once). And so, she's down to null.
I think Phil have pretty posts, but I want to see more.
I have little opinion on YYR and Shodwz. Which bothers me. Especially Shadowz is getting my squinty stare.
Other people I forget. Oh, Acryon. Acryon could be scum.

Basically I have few strong stances on anyone. I haven't ruled anyone out yet. This will need to be fixed.

im having a great deal of difficulty telling if your reads are
"oh oh, scum!" or
"oh oh, shiny!"

this inches you toward my town pile
and makes me want to ignore your reads

[droog]

Sometimes the timing of the preview function can get a little wonky.

ironically, i didnt see this post until after i made my last one

[droog]

scum, making well reasoned arguments, and in general looking genuine, and because he hasn't made any noticable slips in spite of having a very active slot (my reasoning is, the more posts you make, the more likely you are to make a scumslip, as he has not, activity is a minor towntell (emphasis on minor, the rest is more important to me)). Even though I don't entirely agree with his results, his methods are good, and that's what makes him look townish to me.

at a certain point this breaks down
the more effort you're putting into a game
the more you make sure to not have scumslips

mafia does have a 'zone'

anyways please provide some reads on players who are not me/blair/thor

[droog]

that is a large series of walls

pretty sure thor caught you in a blatant contradiction dys

[droog]

normally here i would ask for a vote
but after the quickhammer
we're practically still in rvs

so.

dyslex, please talk to someone besides thor
who is doing a great job at absorbing all discussion
and preventing anyone else from having meaningful interactions

[droog]

page 8: a nice panoply of posters
then thor starts his case on blair

page 9: blair and thor
with some droog!

page 10: blair v thro

page 11: im sensing a pattern
dyslex shows up

page 12: thor v dyslex

[droog]

on the bright side i have multiple reads on thor now

[droog]

ok thor have a conversation with me then

[droog]

Actually I feel her answer makes sense.

It still relegates her to saying "nothing-at-feth-all" but it makes sense.

Contextually even

Of a more valid point though, for someone who cannot read this game enough to offer up a single read - what do you make of her asking me for other games of mine for her to analyze? And then a claim of having skimmed some (in my opinion - aka opening them up and loosely scrolling through so she can claim something...maybe). I'm not buying that story at all. Someone who is actually doing that sort of research would be able to say something. I also don't believe she's doing research on anyone else, so, like, I'm her single option super investigation while everyone else is just null slop? Nah, I don't buy it.

another post mafiascum didnt show me
i think if she was scum trying to lynch you there are a lot of steps she could have cut out
scum not trying to lynch you would make more sense

however mafiascum time and time again has no perfect townies
dyslex being ditzy speaks much more to me as town than scum

plus, lots of townies can convince themselves that they're doing good scumhunting when they're not
do you have any explanations that would impart scum motives to dys?

[droog]

That was not me attacking your thought process
It was me explaining mine

I could see a passive dyslex scum.
I could not say the same of Blair
Who could be other types of scum

I would like to see more from dyslex before committing to a read
The shift from nothing to say
To something to say
Will be informative

[droog]

Thor, will look at yyr again later.

[droog]

blair,
too many words kills discussion
take dyslex as an example

who is what that comment was directed at:
"dyslex, please talk to someone besides thor"

[droog]

im still thinking thor is town
but have you ever had a brilliant case against scum
and they proceed to have a long form argument with you?

no one will read it
most people will develop town or null reads on you and your accuser
thats what the last few pages have felt like

[droog]

blair, i dont like the implication that my yyr vote was a lynching vote
it clearly was not -- i asked the guy a question

i dont like yyr and i will iso later but
dont tell me my vote wasnt informative
i already know that

[droog]

I confess that I straight up have not been reading some of your banter with Thor more recently, largely because it appears to be going nowhere productive and is taking up a lot of space. Sorry about that.

see

[droog]

My fenceposting on you has primarily been because you are commiting things that I both consider town and scumtells/town and scum behaviour. I did explain those, regardless of what you're claiming, but thankfully with your most recent post I've got more to throw on the pile with your YYR comment alone. Your request for reframe on the case on YYR- which has been reframed multiple times in posts between the posts you quoted, and thus you *must* have read if you were being thorough- strikes me as something of a stalling tactic on a slot that has been next to inactive and actively prod dodging in its most recent post. What it feels like you are trying to imply is that the slot's only garnering votes due to inactivity (which is not the case, search YYR in my and droog's ISOs), which is sorta corroborated by your list of reads. Trying to defend YYR against an attack which he isn't actually having used against him strikes me as really quite suspicious.

This said, you have spent a majority of your posts so far defending other players (and occasionally yourself), with no overt accusations being made against anyone until the most recent post. This strikes me as something townish- not making any judgements until you've had time to gather information, which is, again, a mark of genuine scumhunting. The fact you're attacking me rather than one of the more popular targets is also indicative of that- you appear to have arrived at Phillascum through your own thought processes. Shame they're wrong, but hey, it's better than not thinking at all.

something off here
not like phil is trying to suss out whether blair's scum

it feels like phil is trying to keep the option of lynching blair open to get a mislynch

let's call you null-scum

[droog]

i looked through yyr and found almost all of it scummy
only treating a few posts

if you want my opinion on the others pick one and i will have a ready explanation for why it means burn yyr with rope

[droog]

VOTE: wgeurts

classic rvs vote that doesn't need explaining
except

VOTE: wgeurts

Also if I accidentally use the name Keely it's referring to Cheetory6 and the name Young refers to YYR. Be back after dinner.

Cheetory, do you think this clarification is more likely to come from townJohnny or scumJohnny?

yyr already had an rvs vote. why change it?

The fact that Cheetory gave me a reason for thinking scumJohnny and not townJohnny when I asked makes me think he has better reasoning for voting Johnny over his initial vote, which I don't see going anywhere. I think he's being too conservative with his vote especially when Johnny has given out information that wasn't strictly necessary and he claims there's possible scum motivation behind it.

now this is the post to which yyr has to be referring
and it conveniently fits between the posts where yyr changed his vote

I guess it could be playing carefully/thinking a little far ahead if I stretch. Could easily be explained by the fact that Johnny might be nervous about playing on mafiascum for the first time in a year though so meh.

play this back

The fact that Cheetory gave me a reason for thinking scumJohnny and not townJohnny when I asked

I guess it could be playing carefully/thinking a little far ahead if I stretch. Could easily be explained by the fact that Johnny might be nervous about playing on mafiascum for the first time in a year though so meh.

cheetory never said anything like what yyr accused her of

now, its entirely possible that

yyr could manipulate, bandwagon, lurk, and fail to provide any meaningful scumhunting
(all in his first five posts)
without being scum

so i will show scum motive

remember how yyr created the day 1 wgeurts wagon by pushing it to 3 votes and then hopped off to vote for cheetory?

yyr: move on from your question. what do you think of thor's entrance?

More votes on wagon are super neat.

not only does he not commit to a read on thor in any way
he

admits that he likes wagon building

why again did he switch from wgeurts to cheetory?

Cheet, your argument is that you responded with a reason for scumJohnny to not detract momentum of some possible strategy I had in mind.

My argument is that I didn't say it was scummy. You're putting words in my mouth. Read my response again and stop insinuating things I didn't actually say.

No, the first part of that paragraph is saying what I just said unless you want to reinterpret the first part of that paragraph for me. You're playing semantics if you didn't say he was scummy but instead only gave a reason that could mean he's scummy. Then what was the point of the exchange you and I had if you're essentially saying you said nothing of interest?

that paragraph is a mess so i'll break it down

No, the first part of that paragraph is saying what I just said unless you want to reinterpret the first part of that paragraph for me.

yyr says cheetory gave a reason why johnny could be scum -- which she did not do

You're playing semantics if you didn't say he was scummy but instead only gave a reason that could mean he's scummy.

yyr says that cheetory must have been calling johnny scummy
she gave a reason why he could be scum!

Then what was the point of the exchange you and I had if you're essentially saying you said nothing of interest?

so he accuses her of either contributing absolutely nothing
but this was in response to a situation

he created

that could not possibly have contributed anything

(which i pointed out earlier on day 1)

in short:

1) yyr's initial question was a horribly-worded meta question to which any answer is manipulable
2) yyr manipulated cheetory's answer
3) this provided yyr with a 'case' on cheetory
4) which scum would have needed for a mislynch

thor, none of us were building caes on cheetory.
the wagon on her was a classic day 1 first wagon
yyr alone was arguing that cheetory was scum

he set up the situation that let him argue cheetory was scum in the first place

as a final point, take a look at what yyr started doing day 2:

VOTE: wgeurts

Debating whether Johnny would make such a weak push on a Blair as a scummate. Seems a little too weak for it to be the strong busing I know Johnny is willing to do. Don't know how much he'd be willing to do in for this setup, though. Meh.

it's the same pattern

[droog]

heyo

thoughts?

[droog]

yes, why?

[droog]

I'm interested on hearing this Blair read when everyone else thinks null/scum

[droog]

Thor, I know yyr is subbed but what do you make of my case

[droog]

was not calling you scum
i said that i would infer you were scum if a reads list wasnt forthcoming

you avoided reads on a few players
but you've given more than other players have.

hm.

you mentioned not liking yyr. what did you make of *my* case on yyr?

[droog]

Aw, snap, you're presenting an either or situation - you being so illogical there Droog!

thor i looked at my 253 when shaddow quoted it and found this
was very confused, what were you getting at?

[droog]

What do you think of the replacement?

yyr's?

still dont have one

[droog]

What do you think about Shaddow/YYR, droog?

was null or null-scum before
dont really remember what or why
very town pleased with his last spate of action

[droog]

eh, im willing to cut bins for slack as a sub
on a slot we had zip for

slack ends tomorrow night
would rather see the desiccated husk of an unfinished post
than an excuse

[droog]

nice post bins

thanks for explaining on blair
makes me feel a bit better about that slot

honestly slightly concerned no one's expressed scum read on me
blair did -- sort of?
i give it three phases before everyone decides in unison to lynch me after all

would like your opinion on yyr bins
no need to wallpost for it

[droog]

Liking the new crop of reads

I'm willing to entertain scum Thor (suddenly feel like his questions only prove into discussion of what he asks -- will look later)

But he's not a top read
I'd like a few real flips before tackling Blair/thor

[droog]

There are questions like
"What do you think of him"
And then
"What do you think of me"

[droog]

All votes are made with intent to lynch yes

[droog]

Acryon Thor is not the only one who camped on wgeurys
Why does his vote draw ire

[droog]

I agree I asked questions like both of those - I'm not following what the issue is.

I'm trying to decide if the questions you've asked are useful by my standard
Haven't had time to look
So I put it up as a public reminder for myself

[droog]

since nm took the trouble to send us all pms

VOTE: yyr

what do you think of everything thats gone down

Definitely a vote with intent to lynch

[droog]

Also emphasizing that a votes intent, once declared, ABSOLUTELY cannot vhange

[droog]

But not of the sort that tars a sub before he's had a chance to really post?

Oh wait e's provided his reads therefore you can tar his past self all you want

[droog]

Yes maam

[droog]

Are you accusing me of back pedaling from a not clear position?

[droog]

a lynching position tha was never originally clear?

??????

[droog]

Also emphasizing that a votes intent, once declared, ABSOLUTELY cannot vhange

[droog]

i expressed yyr as a scumread
i voted him to get answers out of him and get a better read on him
thor asked me for my case on yyr
which i provided

[droog]

im with thor on this one

[droog]

UNVOTE: yyr

because hes not here and my vote is better put elsewhere

VOTE: Dyslex

time for some updated reads
what do you think of the players who just provided reads
(acryon, bins, and shaddowez?)

(pssst: blair; i have proven the existence of a vote that isnt entirely meant to lynch)

[droog]

In post 403, droog wrote:
Also emphasizing that a votes intent, once declared, ABSOLUTELY cannot vhange


I may be missing the context in being able to infer what you mean from this. Are you saying that once a vote has been cast, you always want that person lynched, regardless of if you change your vote? Or just that while a vote is on a person, it's because that lynching that person is it's intent?

that was sarcasm to pre-empty blair
who was arguing that i was voting to lynch yyr and then backpedaled

i actually voted to pressure yyr and then pedaled forward

im clearly scum because my intent toward the yyr slot changed

[droog]

did not realize dys is at l-2

dys, please respond

[droog]

Is acryons terrible argument a plot to get us to town read him

Does anyone understand his argument
I can't see scum making it otherwise

[droog]

Do you always vote your #1

[droog]

ergo
under certain conditions town votes for #2 or lower

now tell me why thor's vote was not such a condition

[droog]

What do you think of me not voting fins

[droog]

Few notes:

I'm everyone's top town read
Scum is hiding somewhere my praisers

It's hip and trendy to say that Thors arguments suck for town
(Wasn't that line mine?)
Especially while arguing with him

Did dys respond to the case on her?
Lots of reads but that's the in thing too

[droog]

Thor would you still lynch dyx

[droog]

which questions

[droog]

i ask because i dont remember you pushing dyx for
a while

so thor
doe dyx's new posts back up your case

[droog]

Are you accusing me of back pedaling from a not clear position?

pretty sure i did go into this somewhere after

yyr was a top read so i voted him
but as pressure and not a lynch
which is pretty clear since i asked a question and didnt make a case

then thor wanted a case so i made one
which makes it pretty clear that im telling other people to vote yyr

[droog]

blair your investigations have been pretty worthless this game

[droog]

are you saying i should not have voted yyr in that situation?

thor: dead null

[droog]

acryon who do you think is scum besides thor

[droog]

the thor wagon is not moving today
everyone loves to attack thor but no one wants to commit

personally i want some more flips before thor/blair

so join me on the yyr slot

VOTE: vote: fink

[droog]

wait

UNVOTE: fink

we have fink and bins?????

[droog]

Fink replaces YYR

VOTE: Fink

back where i started

[droog]

Thor/Blair false dilemma

why is it a false dilemma

[droog]

dont think i ever gave my opinion on fins so

1) yyr was a scummy scumlord
2) fink joins the hip and trendy thor criticism
3) fink pushes philamon who just so happens to have a handy wagon to hide behind
4) i am too far invested in yyr as scum to not see what more pressure gets me

[droog]

Phillammon looks much worse, seems stretching a lot for pushing any of several

mislynches

in #328,

especially as reading through this, the several clarifications on the case on my predecessory were lost in the noise to me reading it, I find it hard to believe it's so obvious and unlikely to him that others could also lose that in the noise.

btw was this a slip?
need to find #328 manually since the link heads to a different game

[droog]

i would rather believe that thor and blair are both scum than that only one is

[droog]

fink have you played mafia on other sites before

[droog]

I've read all of the Mastin-academy stuff

wow
i thought mastin academy was designed to discourage people from reading into theory

asked because your last few responses looked too good for a newbie
could have implied coaching

im probably going to reread
town isnt giving me any easy hints this game

[droog]

@Droog:

What's the case on Dyslexicon as

you

see it?

havent followed it much
most of her and her enemy's content is wallposts

sounds like

1) she talks a lot of fluff
though dys looks like a pretty bloated poster anyways

2) her case on philamon falls apart
not sure about this

id prefer a real flip before deciding whose cases dont make sense
nobody's case this game makes sense

3) dodged some thor questions
though practically everyone has done it

hm

i could see dyslex's style of disappearing and only answering select questions
as consistent with being coached

head says town
gut says scum

[droog]

i like my vote on the yyr slot
dys is not high priority yet

could see myself on philamon
probably need to reerad

[droog]

I am not opposed to a YYR lynch but am opposed to the YYR lynch wagon.

please elaborate

[droog]

i am talking about you
get other people to talk about you if you want
means talking to other people

asking me to postpone your death until until
you feel you participated enough
is worrying

[droog]

i wont stop playing but im going to disappear for a bit
i havent read the last few pages as well as they deserve

starting to have a terrible time telling everyone apart
if you're not blair, thor, or fink, i have a horrible time remembering what you said

we'll see what i can do this weekend toward fixing that
im quite occuppied

[droog]

@Droog - same question to you, really, I thought you had them both as scummy and you seemed to pick Fink for no readily clear reason I can think of - why not pick Blair instead just for yucks?

eh, sorry, im going through something this weekend and am still rereading
probably going to change around my scumreads when i get back.
been meaning to take a second look at acryon.

point this at me when i start posting in earnest and ill give a better answer

[droog]

quick aside

that was the best entrance all game

[droog]

I'm waiting on DCLXVI too, right now. I have to concur, that's one helluvan entrance, as they go.

something about tis screams scum to me

i think in my absence from reading im starting to like the idea of town thor and town blair
i think id be okay with philamon. let me read through the thread to confirm my new biases

[droog]

probably acryon too

[droog]

*as a lynch

[droog]

ceep

[droog]

is it just me or is the entirety of acryon's 136 really namby pamby
thats a lame insult sooooooo

" I don't like when players seem to be stifling discussion. "
"You have nothing better to say, so you tell someone else the things they are saying are dumb? Not sure I get this. "
"What the heck is this? Why would someone hammer this early and in the middle of discussion... Thank God cheetory was a sniper."
"This didn't seem genuine to me. It's easy to say in response to someone calling you out that it was just banter, but I don't think I buy that."

[droog]

i dont even remember what i was pushing before
being sick in bed all weekend does that

but someone please explain to me why arycons first sentences are all these vague trickle down licorices that sound as scripted as joe biden isnt

[droog]

When did I not have a vote in play?

I didn't say you didn't. But for all of the discussion you were involved in, you would think your vote would move at some point in an effort to actually pressure someone. It wasn't doing much sitting on wgeurts for all of day 2.

[droog]

why the hell am i voting yyr
[unvone][/unvote]
VOTE: vote: acryno

[droog]

2. Droog is kissing a lot of ass.

[droog]

i dont even like that i was voting yyr so why is philamon voting yyr

[droog]

itd be easier to follow michael jackson at the michael jackson world funeral tour than
whatever the hell kind of case that was

[droog]

I would support an Acryon lynch. I think a Blair lynch is superior.

is this still how you feel

[droog]

666 is on the acryon wagon too

thor this seems as close t ocompromise as were ever going to get today

[droog]

unless you can wrastle up blair and make her confess

[droog]

here's what im seeing:

dys: phil and acryon
thor: acyron and blair
droog; acryno

what the hell are we sitting around for

[droog]

wait who is shaddowez

[droog]

respot those responses please

[droog]

to wildly pick and choose

They are wrong, and I certainly think there are better options for lynches to reveal information(Dys and Phil both fit that I think).

so

you admit that lynches to reveal information can be good
but still maintain that votes should always be on your top suspect

there's a bad disconnect there

[droog]

some of you guys have weird ideas about how to play mafia

[droog]

i like your pounce

everything ive wanted to say has been covered by 666 pretty well already

[droog]

i like your pounce

everything ive wanted to say has been covered by 666 pretty well already

I went ahead and re-posted that conversation you asked for. Any thoughts?

seeing your thought process explained
1) i still think its naively wronng
2) i sympathize with it more which means im leaning more town on you

not enough of a shift to make me think you arent the best lynch option righ

wait

if we dont have mafia nightkills
why are we constrained by deadlines at all

[droog]

shaddowez is probably also topping my scum lists at the moment
most everyone eles is making fair town impressions on me

[droog]

oh i agree; ti'll be better if we pretend that deadlines matter

but in hindsight acryno's argument holds even less water
with no effective deadlines there's no rush to always vote your #1

not that this occurred to anyone else any sooner

[droog]

heres what im thinking suddenly

we have 2 scum hiding in 9 players with 5 mislynches to lose
itd be more productive to think in terms of not lynching not suspects than lynching suspects

[droog]

no reason to lynch suspects when we will disagree for a long time without generating anything

there are no nightkills
there is no pressure on scum

there are almost no meaningful interactions we can get this way

better to agree to lynch a few players nobody feels strong enough town reads on to save

[droog]

5 players alive at lylo, so sans self here are 5 players id be comfortable with in lylo

blair
666
dys
thor

i could only find 4

[droog]

so sans self

[droog]

yyr slot left enough of an impression on me
i was liking your slot better but you said something recently that i didnt like

give me time to gid it up

[droog]

In post 722, Thor665 wrote:
If you want to affect the wagon you need to be talking to the people voting it, not the obv. votes that aren't placed yet.

I'm not terribly interested in defending Acryon, I think he's a perfectly reasonable lynch candidate. If anything, I'm hammer-curious myself. But his very reasonableness as a lynch candidate without any real thing defining that, and the speed with which his wagon took off are what worry me, and I think it's worth questioning him before he dies. I don't see why that's surprising at all. And getting his vote actually onto Phil would give others (you/Droog/adorable kitty roman numeral guy) some more leverage to also queston Phil. I think it's self-evident that talking to Acyron is the best use of my time right now.

In post 724, acryon wrote:
1. I think it is non-impossible, but quite unlikely that a Thor wagon could gain momentum, but I do think it is worth keeping my vote to send the message that I am serious about thinking he is scum, and I don't want to let him off the hook.

That message is obvious. Why is that more important to you than applying pressure to pressurable people? What do you think voting for Thor is actually accomplishing if you die when Phil comes back?

i lost whatever thought i originally had
duly noting it so i will remember later

the above is a bit contradictory regardless
"I think it's self-evident that talking to Acyron is the best use of my time right now."

when your use of that time is to talk meta

[droog]

blair

everyone realized that no one was terribly apposed to an acryno lynch

[droog]

Why are you keen to throw out the non-math questions as talking theory?

you have to perform
mental gymnastics

to read my last few posts as 'keen' to put you in any light
you asked i answered

[droog]

acryon, what do you make of fink

[droog]

666 why are you piling on the acryon case
he's getting lynched that's not changing

[droog]

It's past hammer time

[droog]

(saying "only 3 of us seem interested in that" when basically everyone on one wagon except for thor has stated that they could be convinced to go for a Phil lynch is straight up not true)

(Sorry for the multipost)

Straight up lies here. How much more does it take guys?

VOTE: Phil

i have a short attention span
please explain the lie

[droog]

will say that im not caring for fink in general
any honeymoon the yyr slot got on fink subbing in is over

and im not inclined any more toward the slot
may write a case later

[droog]

you're unwilling to even read my posts then

no
just busy

thoughts on phil? need to read more first. strictly null.
but

not having read everything youve produced yet
does not mean i cant have a valid read on you

hell given how much ive leaned into this slot all game
are you trying to suggest i havent looked into it *enough*?

[droog]

Won't post tonight. Spent 9 hours on one assignment

Will provide answers and a fink Iso eventually

[droog]

heh, i just got back. have been busy all week.
will do some rereading (probably back to page 30)
will post reactions then a fink case

[droog]

Also, regarding hurting town's ability to make a reasoned decision, I feel like Thor deciding for people what they are doing is a good example of that.

I don't know, Thor's comment that the two most likely lynch candidates end up voting for each other seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Why do you think that comment is scummy, rather than just aggressive/presumptious?

If you want to affect the wagon you need to be talking to the people voting it, not the obv. votes that aren't placed yet.

I'm not terribly interested in defending Acryon, I think he's a perfectly reasonable lynch candidate. If anything, I'm hammer-curious myself. But his very reasonableness as a lynch candidate without any real

thing

defining that, and the speed with which his wagon took off are what worry me, and I think it's worth questioning him before he dies. I don't see why that's surprising at all. And getting his vote actually onto Phil would give others (you/Droog/adorable kitty roman numeral guy) some more leverage to also queston Phil. I think it's self-evident that talking to Acyron is the best use of my time right now.

1. I think it is non-impossible, but quite unlikely that a Thor wagon could gain momentum, but I do think it is worth keeping my vote to send the message that I am serious about thinking he is scum, and I don't want to let him off the hook.

That message is obvious. Why is that more important to you than applying pressure to pressurable people? What do you think voting for Thor is actually accomplishing if you die when Phil comes back?

2. I don't see how abstaining from voting for someone else hurts the town's ability to make a reasoned decision. If my vote were to go anywhere, it would go to Dys or Phil, but as I've implied, I'm less convinced that they are scum than I am of Thor as scum. I think keeping my vote on Thor benefits town more than switching to one of those others, for the reasons I answered in 1.

Your vote isn't applying any pressure to anyone. Thor is not shaking in his boots with fear that he's getting lynched today. If you always abstain until the last possible minute, it makes town react based on urgency rather than talking it through. Thoughts?

And while you're at it, why are you still talking about voting for Dys? What in the last few pages makes you think a vote there is going to do any good?

3. If people honestly don't see what I see, then the wagon makes sense I guess. They are wrong, and I certainly think there are better options for lynches to reveal information(Dys and Phil both fit that I think).

Who's the scummiest person on your wagon besides Thor?

If Phi flips scum, who is your top suspect?

If Phil flips town, who is your top suspect?

my reasoning is, the more posts you make, the more likely you are to make a scumslip

@ DCLXVI, Droog, Acryon, Shaddowz, Thor

So what do you guys think of this earlier comment given Phil's recent play? It seems suspicious to me that he's playing with so little commentary, especially now that he's suspected. He seems to be minimizing his responses, or is this just in my imagination? He still hasn't moved his vote OR explained his vote on me. I think it all fits with my over-cautious scum explaination, given that he agrees that that is how scum should play?

@ Acryon: Don't you see how voting Phil to put him at L-1 could put more pressure on him here? It would give the others the ability to demand some real answers out of him. If you're going to keep voting Thor, how about you at least make a case on him, other than the not-taking-his-vote-off-wyguerts thing, which no one but you thinks is suspicious.

So in my opinion Shaddowez had by far the scummiest jump onto the Acryon wagon. DCLXVI came into the game, read it, and placed a vote on a non-existant wagon that turned out to be pretty damn viable, that doesn't seem scummy to me at all. Thor has been jumping at the bit to get a lynchable wagon going (something I don't actually read as scummy coming from him right now) and has never had much read on Acryon. I have 0 difficulty believing Thor would see Acryon as a viable lynch candidate and a perfectly reasonable compromise. Droog had been catching up on the last several days and saying for a while he needed to reevaluate things, when he came back, he moved his vote based on the other two responses and preferring Acryon to Phil I think. Shaddowez just kind of came and tagged on to a rapidly rising wagon to put it into lynch range.

IMO Scummiest-> Towniest looking only at how votes were placed on the Acryon-wagon is Shaddowez > Droog > Thor > DCLXVI

I'm really surprised Acryon isn't looking at this sort of thing

at all

and it certainly brings me closer to wanting to hammer him. Especially given that Acryon had Shaddowez as only a lean town before, while DCLXVI was a straight up town read. Acryon seems completely disinterested in explaining this, he seems to have 0 interest in scumhunting, just in pushing his one target.

Also, Acryon, don't say it's "mathematically wrong" when you obviously aren't doing any math.

Spoiler: math example using numbers pulled out of my ass, because I'm annoyed at the phrase "mathematically wrong"

Let's say Thor has a 5% chance of getting lynched today (I think that's being generous.)
Let's say you are overconfident and think Thor has a 75% chance of voting scum.
Not counting yourself, assuming Thor is scum, there are 7 people left. Looking at your reads list, let's say you have no interest in voting for me or Droog, so there is 1 scum in 5 people if you assume Thor is scum. That means, even if your scum read on Phil were tied with Blair/DCLXVI/Shaddowez/Dys (i.e. I'm

seriously

underestimating this because you say he's your #2 scum read), that gives Phil a 20% chance of being scum to you.
So by voting for Thor, you have a ~4% chance of lynching scum.
Let's say you could vote for Phil and make it 50-50 that he gets lynched (it's probably a bit less than that, but you get my point, since if you're town, you know you are town and shouldn't desire that outocem.)
Then you'd have a 10% chance of lynching scum by voting Phil, accounting for him being town 80% and maybe not being lynched.
In this case, by not voting, you're making it LESS likely that your scum reads will be lynched, since presumably you have yourself as a town read.

IT IS MATHEMATICALLY REASONABLE TO VOTE FOR YOUR LESSER SCUM READ.

Okay, so that math example was probably pointless, but GRRRRRRRR

i dont want to write a case yet. spar me.

[droog]

oops did not mean to quote

[droog]

So what do you guys think of this earlier comment given Phil's recent play? It seems suspicious to me that he's playing with so little commentary, especially now that he's suspected. He seems to be minimizing his responses, or is this just in my imagination? He still hasn't moved his vote OR explained his vote on me. I think it all fits with my over-cautious scum explaination, given that he agrees that that is how scum should play?

thor says that gingers have big dicks
thor then dies his hair red
what do you assume about thor?

phil says that scum do x
phil then does x
what do you assume about phil?

[droog]

observation
dys, 666, and fink all suavely worked themselves up to back acryon's lynch
reads more like they're convincing others than themselves
one is scum

[droog]

Do a quick Ctrl-F over Fink's ISO for Acryon. First mention is that Acryon is slightly scummy (from the first 10 pages alone) (#461), which is immediately revised to "dumb but probably town" (#480). There's then no significant mention of Acryon until #721, by which time, surprise surprise, Acryon is at L-1 (and has been for some time). At which point Fink immediately starts to turn on this previous town-read in the very next post-

i agree

[droog]

@ Droog

i'm curious why you're unwilling to even read my posts then.

???????

[droog]

@not mafia:

could we get a mass prod?

we're two hours away from 50% of the player base needing a prod.
i know there are no nightkills or deadlines but come on guys

if you're bored let's lynch a few players so we can get down to an active group

[droog]

thanks : )

[droog]

i want to hear fink respond to my questions
still waiting

[droog]

because ive been tunneling on the fink slot all game
i want to see if there are answers to my questions or if she's confirmed scum

did not expect waiting for fink to become
waiting for everyone

((happy birthday))

[droog]

((or forum join date??)

[droog]

now if i ask you for a reaction to the quotes i mukked up from fink
will you say you agree they are scummy, disagree, or want them explicated?

[droog]

explained

[droog]

VOTE: fink

[droog]

So what do you guys think of this earlier comment given Phil's recent play?

It seems suspicious to me that he's playing with so little commentary, especially now that he's suspected.

He seems to be minimizing his responses, or is this just in my imagination? He still hasn't moved his vote OR explained his vote on me. I think it all fits with my over-cautious scum explaination, given that he agrees that that is how scum should play?

thor says that gingers have big dicks
thor then dies his hair red
what do you assume about thor?

phil says that scum do x
phil then does x
what do you assume about phil?

thor this quote screams scum
phil says that scum tend to be quiet
then phil becomes quiet

using that against phil is meta AT BEST
for a scumhunter, it makes poor sense -- it wont convince you of anything you're not already convinced of
as scum it makes great sense -- it makes phil look scummier

[droog]

the entire conversation with acryon itches
here's what i mean

So in my opinion Shaddowez had by far the scummiest jump onto the Acryon wagon.

DCLXVI came into the game, read it, and placed a vote on a non-existant wagon that turned out to be pretty damn viable, that doesn't seem scummy to me at all. Thor has been jumping at the bit to get a lynchable wagon going (something I don't actually read as scummy coming from him right now) and has never had much read on Acryon. I have 0 difficulty believing Thor would see Acryon as a viable lynch candidate and a perfectly reasonable compromise. Droog had been catching up on the last several days and saying for a while he needed to reevaluate things, when he came back, he moved his vote based on the other two responses and preferring Acryon to Phil I think.

Shaddowez just kind of came and tagged on to a rapidly rising wagon to put it into lynch range.

fink by contrast spends the rest of the day asking acryon questions to prove,
loudly and in public
that she's doing nothing of the sort

@ Acryon

But you haven't explained thet non-nothing reason for your reads changing at all. You are dangling at the end of a rope here, you should probably do so.

And also, you fail math. Whether or not that makes you townie or scummy, how about you lay off saying things mathematically don't make sense.

remember that exchange about math?
a nice way to rebutt acryon without making an enemy of him
"you're factually wrong" and not "i think you're scummy"

I'm not terribly interested in defending Acryon, I think he's a perfectly reasonable lynch candidate. If anything, I'm hammer-curious myself. But his very reasonableness as a lynch candidate without any real thing defining that, and the speed with which his wagon took off are what worry me, and I think it's worth questioning him before he dies. I don't see why that's surprising at all. And getting his vote actually onto Phil would give others (you/Droog/adorable kitty roman numeral guy) some more leverage to also queston Phil. I think it's self-evident that talking to Acyron is the best use of my time right now.

these are not the words of someone trying to suss out whether aycron is town or scum
she announces interest in lynching acryon
but wants to keep him around and ask him.... what?, exactly?
correct him on his math and ask him why his reads changed?

[droog]

(saying "only 3 of us seem interested in that" when basically everyone on one wagon except for thor has stated that they could be convinced to go for a Phil lynch is straight up not true)

(Sorry for the multipost)

Straight up lies here. How much more does it take guys?

VOTE: Phil

memory tells me that phil is more correct here
ill look over fink's phil case otherwise but everything acryon convincing her of phil is suspect

if acryon is scum, she found the teammate!
if acryon is town, phil is even scummier!

[droog]

eh, i want to make sure someone's going to read it first
by all means if im saying something stupid/wrong please fix it

would rather see fink's response to anything else

is there something else im better served paying attention to?
im willing to entertain shaddowez

i think we're best served in phil/fink today though

[droog]

fair enough

"I'd like to discuss phil/fink vs. DCL/Blair with you, yes."

go on.
i could see scum DCL but i have to reason to suspect scum DCL
blair badly needs a sub

[droog]

Phil,

when undersuspicious

plays in a way that he has shown he believes to be good for scum.
That makes Phil scummy.

ideas and actions are different
most players here believe inactivity hurts town. and yet.

why do you keep saying phil wasnt under suspicion?

p-edit; will respond

[droog]

observation
dys, 666, and fink all suavely worked themselves up to back acryon's lynch
reads more like they're convincing others than themselves
one is scum

I was convincing myself. And I was showing my thinking. I don't see what's wrong with either of these. We needed a lynch to get moving, Droog, Thor, Shaddowez, and DCXwhatever were voting Acryon. Blair, Acryon, and Phil were opposed to voting Acryon. As I've made clear before, it was obvious a Phil lynch that I most wanted wasn't going through.

Either Dys or I was going to have to vote Acryon or stall the day out. After some reflection, which I posted A LOT about, I decided that he had a better-than-random chance of being scum and was a detriment to town and someone I wouldn't want in LYLO even if he were town.

I stand by my vote. But I don't think it makes any of us three scum.

I'm particularly interested in why you see Roman Numeral Flaker Jerk as "suavely working himself up" for it, given that he was the first vote on the wagon.

And I'd like it if you could point out

why

thinking out loud and deciding to lynch Acryon is scummy

, rather than just

having you apply weasel word adjectives

without any analysis or discussion of specific posts.

now you're manipulating my words
you realize you're being dramatic right?

thought is fine. i think *your thought* is aimed at convincing everyone else that you're scumhunting
not at actually scumhunting

((everything i meant in the word 'suave' is contained in the sentence below it:
"reads more like they're convincing others than themselves"

and 'worked themselves up' does not imply anything about chronology))

[droog]

big part of the argument seems to be predicated on the notion that I shouldn't have voted for Acryon if Phil was my top scum read,

?????
i do not have time to address the rest right now but
where did i say this

((if i did say this i deserve a big "??????"))

[droog]

If it wasn't that, then perhaps you could clarify why you think my vote was scummy. Specifically.

"i will convince myself that acryon is scum"
"i will convince everyone else that i think acryon is scum"

i am accusing you of the latter
which would come from scum motivation

it is not that you should have voted for someone else
or that i disagree with your reasons
or that i think the acryon lynch was a poor one

i think you are more interested in showing that you are scumhunting
"look at me im scumhunting"
then actually scumhunting
this is directly related to my thinking some of your questions to acryon were uselesss

(i wil not get back to any reply you make for a while))

[droog]

@fink: forgot what i havent replied to, selecting a bunch.
if i miss something let me know.

let's start with this:

Phil,

when undersuspicious

plays in a way that he has shown he believes to be good for scum.
That makes Phil scummy.

why do you keep saying phil wasnt under suspicion?

why do you keep saying phil wasnt under suspicion?

At no point did I say this

, he most certainly was, at least from Blair, Dys, and me.

you have to play very trick semantics to say
'phil was undersuspicious'
and
'at no point did i say he wasnt under suspicion'

so i put your words here

in the scum pile

Spoiler:

[quote="In post 924, droog"
thor says that gingers have big dicks
thor then dies his hair red
what do you assume about thor?

phil says that scum do x
phil then does x
what do you assume about phil?

I assume that Droog is making a fallacious argument.

Phil, earlier, in a forgetable post, comments on what is good play for scum.
Phil, when undersuspicious plays in a way that he has shown he believes to be good for scum.
That makes Phil scummy.

I don't think it's worth voting for on it's own, but I think it's another reason to be more sure of my suspicions.

@Droog: If you agree that Phil was doing what he thinks scum do, why

don't

you find that scummy?[/quote]

observation
dys, 666, and fink all suavely worked themselves up to back acryon's lynch
reads more like they're convincing others than themselves
one is scum

the question you ask here is answered by what you're responding to

phil said that scum tend to do be quiet, and was then quiet
this is not admissible in court
any more than any other meta is useful

if phil said 'i as scum tend to be quiet' and then was quiet
we would roundly ignore this self-meta
same thing.

that this is part of your case
puts you

more in the scum pile

I was convincing myself. And I was showing my thinking.

I don't see what's wrong with either of these.

We needed a lynch to get moving, Droog, Thor, Shaddowez, and DCXwhatever were voting Acryon. Blair, Acryon, and Phil were opposed to voting Acryon. As I've made clear before, it was obvious a Phil lynch that I most wanted wasn't going through.

nothing is wrong with those.
i say that in this specific case
you sound more like you're convincing everyone else than yourself

that is, as ive said
"look guys im scumhunting"
and not
"im scumhunting"

I'm particularly interested in why you see Roman Numeral Flaker Jerk as "suavely working himself up" for it, given that he was the first vote on the wagon.

because, after there was general consensus that acryon was going to be lynched
you, dys, and 666 kept emphasizing how scummy acryon looked
in hindsight it reads like a good justification to vote for what became a mislynch
without hindsight, it looks scummy -- why does town need to tunnel on a sure lynch?

another point

for the scum pile

Oh wait, my overabundance of reasoning is what I was accused of in the previous post. You can't have it both ways.

im trying to have it both ways?
please substantiate this because otherwise it makes you look scummier to me (not what you want)

i think your overabundance of reasoning is par tof what makes you scummy
im not accusing you of a lack of reasoning

(am i? please correct me if im an ignoramus)

Again, Droog, Thor, XCLVI-whatever, had already made it clear they wouldn't vote for Phil yesterday. The only other person on the Acryon wagon was Shaddowez, who wouldn't have been enough to lynch. It takes 5 to lynch. There were 3 of us on the wagon and 5 openly not willing to vote for Phil, and Shaddowez. That lynch was not happening.

The point: Phil is stretching here. He's not looking at anyone else on the Acryon wagon. From his first post it's clear he

never intends

to look at anyone else on the Acryon wagon.

He's stretching hard for reasons to find me scummy.

Town would be honestly concerned with finding scum. Scum would be concerned with getting the biggest advocate of their lynching off their back. Phil is behaving like scum.

[/quote]

you asked me somewhere for my phil read
its related to my response to this

i find myself on the same case as philscum
so i read him more town than i had before

im not stretching hard for reasons to find you scummy
i agree with some of phil's reasons
(like the one i quoted earlier)

so i disagree with your bold
and

add it to the scum pile

to me it looks like you're not interested in anyone but phil
thats ok -- im not interested in anyone but you
but using against phil the evidence that he's single-minded
when you're single-minded
is inconsistent
stretching it
and scummy

[droog]

Thor just scored the first two points on the Blair wagon that I'll accept

[droog]

This exchange is moving me to your side Thor

Give me another summary of your Blair case
Now that I have bob to compare by

And a day/two for bob's honeymoon to end

And I may vote with you

[droog]

Droog

- At this point, do you think that it's more likely for Bob to be scum than Fink, or do you just think it

more likely for a Bob lynch than a Fink lynch?

scum > fink > bob

[droog]

I literally just did that for you three days ago in a conversation you flopped on like a wet blanket.
Would you mind participating? Your town shine has been long lost to me, and I'm having a hard time remembering why I had it in the first place - you're barely here.
Here's a quote with a case summation;

half of this has been a busy schedule
which i wont go any further into

i specifically wanted your case on blair in a more prominent spot so bob would have to see it
give me a day to mull it over.
im leaning toward agreeing with you now though.

[droog]

Droog, I also object to you saying I worked myself up to back Acryons lynch and empazising how scummy he looked. Do your job and check facts. I couldn't quite convince myself that Acryon was scum by the end of it. This is not the first time I've gotten the impression you're not reading things.

i do read everything
i dont remember it

if someones opinion was so lacking that i dont remember it
thats just as useful as taking the time to triple check

speaking of opinions:

scum > fink > bob > [everyone else] > thor > phil

[droog]

a) Everyone is sick of hearing me talk about Phil and isn't interested in anything I'm saying.
b) No one is clear on why I find Phil scummy because that's been lost along the way somewhere.

i would pick these two
far as i can tell most of what youve said on phil has been in reference to things youve said on phil

i would appreciate a core of your case, like thor gave for blair, and then move on from it

[droog]

merely in finding reasons to push a wagon he

wasn't interested in before the Acryon lynch

but now sees as viable. i.e. the behavior of scum rather than town.

and im being accused of not reading???
the yrr -> fink slot has been my primary scumread all game

[droog]

@Droog: When did Phil go from someone you'd entertain lynching to your top town read? Why?

Thought I said this
His case supports my reads
I assume you're scum, so he's town
Or bussing scum

I like his cases

[droog]

Your last post was much better fink
I will look into that when computer works

VOTE: bicephalous bon

Not third case on Blair
Bobs recent behavior
Needlessly defensive

[droog]

don't ridicule me too much
1) you might accidentally peer-pressure people into voting me
that wouldn't be a bad thing if it didn't have any consequences, but 2) you'll definitely be lynched the day after me
3) I'd aim for another compromise and keep people doubting

1) Why do you think we'd vote for you because Thor ridicules you?
2) What is it with your slot and making promises about how the rest of us are going to lynch? Why would you think mislynching you would lead to lynching Thor? He's been voting your slot forever?
3) What does this even mean?

1) Mafia is a social game. I think townies, consciously or subconsciously, do take into account who will blame them more for mislynching them. Replying to someone's question with a smiley sends the message that you'd find it ridiculous if a player isn't voted or if you think the question is a good one.
2) here I'm doing the same thing back but with more words
3) A natural extension of 2)'s premise is that scum thor is better off if he'd compromise on a lynch instead of continuing to push me. I said this to make sure he keeps voting me when the deadline comes around and he still claims to think I'm scum.

It's only fear mongering if you identify with the scum persona I fleshed out.

Your post was essentially addressed to

town

though. You don't want people to be peer-pressured by Thor into voting for you. And scum or town, would you expect Thor to unvote you because of empty threats?

What is it about Thor's response that makes you think he's identifying with the scum persona you described.

I didn't expect thor of all people to complain about fucking fear mongering after he replied with a smiley to one of my questions

I implied that thor would only have an issue with it if those things were really on his mind

And address this please:

No one even questioned whether it was a good idea other than to be a bit slow about hammering the lynch?
And I *did* lambast them?

So...what sort of attitude did you expect and not see again?

I didn't expect a specific thing. I'm sure there are thousands of things you could have said which would've made me believe you were honest about your intentions.

Nothing in this post is anything I could really get worked about
It's like a he said she said

Bob is very argumentative
Needlessly
I'm not sure why town bob would be

[droog]

I'm interested in what I think Thor's trying to get at, i.e. what is it about him that makes you think he wouldn't put something at L-1.

I'm not sure he wouldn't have done it, but I think the way he went about it was weird (I know I implied something else in 1008, but that was me getting fed up)

drawing strong reads from the first few pages and being unable to properly articulate them isn't a new issue for me

as bert and thor can attest, in playing card, I got a strong gut read on one scum after another flipped based on early interactions, but I got lynched before him and at least for some people on my wagon it was mainly because of this

I can see how you'd think this is an easy thing to hide behind, but my scum game is strong enough that I don't have to and I never have

Fink asks a clear question
Bob doesn't have a clear answer
But a clear explanation about why there's no clear andwer

[droog]

bob's posts make a lot of sense if he's a blair alt

[droog]

If bob somehow isn't scum
It's funk or Thor

Nice reenact analysis Fink

[droog]

So let's talk about the Bob/Blair slot. The TL;DR here is that I was unconvinced that Blair was scum, but basically every post that Bob makes makes me more and more convinced that the slot is in fact scum and Blair just had me completely fooled.

me too
iF bob is scum, thor is town
if not i want to stop making compromise lynches and get fink tomorrow

[droog]

It's l-1go ahead
In hindsight
Fast lunches would've stopped this game from stalling