Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Dyslexicon]

Hi. :3

VOTE: wgeurts

Yes.

[Dyslexicon]

Hi Dys. What's droog talking about?

Why wguts over Cheetory?

I think he wanted two wagons instead of one, and then realized a vote was not where he initially thought. And then he made som insinuation that YYR was initiating stupid discussion by asking the thingy that was the thingy about you. I don't know why he thought it was stupid. And I don't know if I intepreted it correctly (he will hopefully shed more light on it himself). I like punctuation. And I miss my nickname, but Dys is cool.^^

I have no answer to that just now.

[Dyslexicon]

Am I the only one imagining droogs chanting out loud what he is typing? :3

[Dyslexicon]

Right?

So Keely. It's pretty obvious that it's either Wingnuts or you dying today. You should join the wagaruts wagon. Blair found him.

Dys has mysterious reasons for doing things and it's weird.

I've played with someone I call Keely on another site, and I wonder if it's the same person, but I kind of doubt it from posting style. Keely. I like to write it.

And yes, some reasons are half mysterious to me as well. Why, brain, why?

[Dyslexicon]

@ Keely, All the names are hard to remember. But I like doing nicknames. Why are you not upset about dying? Dun dun DUUUN.

[Dyslexicon]

I've had a good life.~

I'm glad to hear it.

VOTE: Cheetory

[Dyslexicon]

Question was dumber than autocorrect

Why?

(Also, autocorrect makes things funny. Sometimes).

[Dyslexicon]

VOTE: wgeurts

Also if I accidentally use the name Keely it's referring to Cheetory6 and the name Young refers to YYR. Be back after dinner.

Cheetory, do you think this clarification is more likely to come from townJohnny or scumJohnny?

Pretend Cheetos have a direct answer. Then what?

1) a discussion about how useless meta is
2) a discussion of Johnny's past meta
3) a throwaway answer that leads nowhere
4) someone calls it dumb

^my best guess. I can't imagine any useful scumhunting coming from that question

But he didn't have a direct answer. Also, I don't think "useful scumhunting" looks like something in particular. You never know what can come out of something, but I was never the organized type.

@Johnny, my gut is having weird feelings on you. Tell me a story, please? What are you seeing in these early posts? Any spark, inspiration?

[Dyslexicon]

Um...

@wgeurts, can you please direct me to games you've played that are done?

[Dyslexicon]

I like Dys right now, but it could be the avatar.

(Do you like Twin Peaks) (This is between fluff an not fluff before y'all complain :3)

Vote: Cheetory

L-1

Anyone who isn't serious about this can flee like children now. We have a wagon at near lynch.

I don't know why but I find this sentence weird. And so I'm saying that.

I would be willing to lynch Dyx as an alternate wagon.

Rude! And why?

Goal for this game: Beat NM to a page top post.

I know the game just started tonight, but it would still be good to hear from the rest of the people.

Blair

- Why do you have a slight town read on Droog? I understand the null, but don't see anything townish yet. I know there are some people that like to townhunt rather than scumhunt early game. Is that how you usually play?

Also, I don't think "useful scumhunting" looks like something in particular

This looks like a useful defense for later in the game. What made you vote Cheetory?

Did Thor ever explain his town read of droog?

What do you mean by "useful defense"? It's how I view the game, basically. I voted Cheetory a bit because he was very calm and I was curious to why, and if more votes/larger wagon would get some kind of stuff happening, and a bit because why not.

yyr: move on from your question. what do you think of thor's entrance?

More votes on wagon are super neat.

deep breath
*sigh*

do you think thor looks town or scum
a thor read is not valid unless it is on someone who is not thor

What do you mean by this last bit? o.o

---

And then the quickhammer happened. -_-


So far, Blair is making a lot of sense to me. Not particularly alignemnt indicative, but how she doesn't explain some things or is more in the grey area of thing, but it still reads like a comprehensive town mindset to me. It's rather vague, but it's what I got on her.

YYR is indeed confusing me too (don't remember who said this, possibly Blair). He insisted on Cheetory saying Johnny was scummy (?) while I honestly read it more as a non answer as Cheetory claimed. He's dead now though. But yeah, didn't get that.

Thor I'm not reading as town, not reading as much of anything as of yet. Kind of forces on a lot of question and logic that seems too black and white. I could see it as a tactic to trip town up (if he's scum) cause town says a lot of weird things (at least in my experience). Past the style I find it hard to read alignment, buuuut there's more to be read.

That's the people that stood out most to me right now. Day 2, apparently.

[Dyslexicon]

Oh lol, I did't see Johnny was dead scum before now. Yay :3

[Dyslexicon]

Ugh. My post disappeared because I was logged out? >:(

[Dyslexicon]

Ugh. My post disappeared because I was logged out? >:(

What I remember.

@wguerts, if you are town make sure to use the rest of the day to gain reads from the situation you're in. Don't self vote.


@Phillammon, is lynching wgeurts policy or a normal lynch to you? You're saying both things after each other in the same post. You say you're down with the policy lynch, and then reasoning for it being scummy.

I beg to differ on your read of Thor. I don't think he's explain everything, he actually refused to.
I agree with what you're saying about having a slight bias for people that seem to have similar thought processes. For me, I have an easier time to see where Blair is coming from.

About your read on Blair, can you specify in your own words what statements are "odd" to you?

About your read on me, what thing is the minor town thing and what is the minor scum thing?


@Thor, You didn't explain your initial "did you just claim scum?" (paraphrasing) thing with Cheetory? I was wuut on that. If the leap is so logical you should have no trouble explaining it. Also, we have PLENTY of time today to explain why Blair is so scummy, since that is what you believe. Why wait for the wgeurts lynch? I don't like how you're avoiding questions.


@Droog, why do you read Thor as town?


@Acryon, can you explain the relations you mentioned in more depth? The things about if X is scum Y is town and so on?

[Dyslexicon]

YYR's interaction with Johnny seemed to be confined to the discussion of Johnny's meta, which I'm not a fan of. It might just be me being dense, but I don't see YYR so much as insinuating that Johnny is scum until #99, which was after the flip, and as I said, the specific wording of that post had me a bit on edge. There are repeated references to scumJohnny in YYRs ISO, but mostly in relation to Cheetory's (scarily accurate) read, rather than any of his own, as far as I can tell (and, as mentioned earlier, with regards to the clarification and meta thereupon).

That is interesting, and so I'm saying that.

Reads coming later, just don't lynch me yet.
I made a mistake and no I do not think I did well in Lynching him, we are lucky beyond belief that he hit the biggest opponent. I'm starting to doubt Blairs townness so I'm going to VOTE: Blair and give reasons later.

She was your only read and town a bit ago. Please make sure to explain.

@Acryon, can you explain the relations you mentioned in more depth? The things about if X is scum Y is town and so on?

To be honest it is a lot of gut, but ultimately I felt the exchange between the two of them indicated that they are not scum together.

Alright. Not particularly satisfying for making such a claim. I don't see the necessity of making the claim what so ever. You also said if wgeurts is scum Blair and Thor is town, is that also gut?

---

@Thor, your scum read on me is for very weak reasoning. Do you have any questions about it? Wagon should not be in plural in your sentence :3 (I haaad to).

[Dyslexicon]

Will come back to this later.

[Dyslexicon]

In post 83, droog wrote:
In post 73, YYR wrote:
In post 63, droog wrote:
yyr: move on from your question. what do you think of thor's entrance?

More votes on wagon are super neat.


deep breath
*sigh*

do you think thor looks town or scum
a thor read is not valid unless it is on someone who is not thor

What do you mean by this last bit? o.o

normal mafiascum play is to announce
often without prompting
that thor is a 'thor read'.

this would tell me nothing
it would tell me something if yyr had a thor read on someone who was *not* thor
we could extend this to all players site wide

for example i have a not_mafia read on thor

I still don't get it. I think I don't understand the context. Sorry =/

@Thor, You didn't explain your initial "did you just claim scum?" (paraphrasing) thing with Cheetory? I was wuut on that. If the leap is so logical you should have no trouble explaining it. Also, we have PLENTY of time today to explain why Blair is so scummy, since that is what you believe. Why wait for the wgeurts lynch? I don't like how you're avoiding questions.

1. I have been asked this before. My answer was (paraphrased) as follows; I answered that reasoning in the very post that I made the comment you are asking about. Please go back and read that post again. If you still don't understand the logic then come back and ask me about it and I will explain it, but I have already supplied that informationa nd will answer it by quoting it back to you.

That offer and answer stands.

2. I have actively been explaining why Blair is scummy...have you missed all of that?

3. You are saying I am avoiding questions, I will counter with the idea that you are avoiding reading posts, because literally both things you're complaining about I could answer with quotes. Ask me about them again and act bewildered like I haven't answered them and I promise to do so...and to mock your reading comprehension. Or go and read my last few posts today and the post where I made the 'claim scum' comment and notice that I've already done both of these. Your call.

@Droog - I actually though that your 'Thor read on someone else' thing was a joke like 'I could learn something if Thor had a read on someone else'. I think my internal joke was funnier than yours.

1. And I still don't get it. I don't get why it's so logical to assume Cheetory was claiming scum. To me it is not. I think it should be clear that I don't understand it, and I'm asking you to try and explain it in a different way than what you have. I don't see why you're so opposed to this, and I don't think it's too much to ask.

2. You hadn't when I posted my post the first time (and it disappeared) and I purposefully didn't catch up on the posts in the meantime because I didn't want to lose my train of thoughts or confuzzle them with new trains. I have a lot of trains. What you had said at that point was that Blair said something scummy and that there was PLENTY of time after the wgeurts lynch to explain that, in which I don't at all see why you would wait until after the wgeurts lynch. You did make claim about Blair afterwards, none of them which I felt pointed towards any alignment, just that you don't get each other's "logic" (and I'm totally writing as I remember things and preceive things, and I'm totally going to keep doing that :3). Acryon had more actual points towrads Blair imo (which are things I'm going to revisit soon).

3. You are right that I didn't read your very last posts. Nothing in Cheetory's post you pointed out was a scum claim, and I would like you to explain this in another way than you already have. Obviously, I'm not understanding where you're coming from with a couple of things. To me it would be great to get it explained in a different way if possible instead of you being snarky about it. I'm not the only one wondering. If you still feel like you've been as obvious as you can feel free to quote it again, that will help too. I'm trying to get where you're coming from, that's why I bother at all.

Droog, I was so sure that that was going to be a haiku from the formatting.

Blair, I'm in agreement with a policy lynch on wgeurts, but ON TOP OF THAT I have a scum read on him, and a much stronger one than I have on anyone else. The quickhammer is the reason for the policy lynch, and basically every post after that is my reason for the scumread.

Alright. I agree that wgeurts looks scummier now that he voted Blair after a lot of people had talked about Blair being scummy. Reads to me as saving his own skin (or trying to). Assuming Blair is town, which I'm inclined to think.

I'm still puzzled by the move to quickhammer though. As scum. But as town as well. Eh.

@Thor, your scum read on me is for very weak reasoning. Do you have any questions about it? Wagon should not be in plural in your sentence :3 (I haaad to).

I never claimed the reasoning was strong and only even provided the reasoning because I was asked to. If I wanted to get answers about it I would have already been asking you questions, I don't think I come across as shy. We are in a different state of the game than when I expressed the desire to lynch you, and though I don't find you townish I also don't see you as a top lynch option today.

Why are you so eager to discuss this?

I'm totally trying to imagine you shy.^^

I'm eager to discuss this, because I'm eager to interact with you. You're one of my higher suspicions right now. Interaction helps, to me, and also hearing reasoning for what people think about me and my alignemnt. You don't think I should be eager? I think I should.

I also have another question for you: Do you think Cheetory would be a likely lynch if the quickhammer hadn't happened?

@Droog, why do you read Thor as to

thor made an interesting choice by holding the cheetos wagon at L-1
lots of players would have backed off, especially after cheetory started posting longform

it would have been very easy to back off the lynch and suck up town credit for it

My response to this would be that I think Thor would do that as any alignemnt. (Which he confirmed). I think his forceful logic (in lack of a better description) isn't indicative of his alignment. My issue with him is where he focuses his energy, and also a thing that Johnny said, namely this:

There was equal opportunity to get on Wagbutts and you, I wanted to know why she elected to vote for the player that's not here. My guess was she didn't vote you because you're actually here to defend yourself.

This is where I scumread Dys, townread YYR,

and say I would townread Thor if I didn't know better.

I remember this gave me feels of Johnny and Thor possibly being scum together when I read it, and now Johnny has flipped scum. This is why I'm giving Thor dah attention. I've seen scum distance (not really distancing, maybe rather jokingly avoiding a read) in this manner before. It jumped out to me in any case, even before Johnny flipped.

[Dyslexicon]

@Phillammon

About your read on Blair, can you specify in your own words what statements are "odd" to you?

About your read on me, what thing is the minor town thing and what is the minor scum thing?

Phil, I don't think you answered this. This makes me sad

---

Blair. Hi. Hi, Blair.

[Dyslexicon]

I quick hammered because he already had 6 votes and I was impatient and am

new to mafia on this forum

I'm not buying the bolded part. Unless you've never, ever played mafia before, the theory should be the same wherever you played. Just because you're new on this forum isn't an excuse to quickhammer.

VOTE: wgeurts

I believe that's L-1.

I'm kind of not buying that you're not buying it. Or rather, have you never seen players doing weird or not thought through things, or been kind of clueless? (Actually I think most of us are, sometimes :3 *raises hand*). My point is, what you're pointing out as the point of suspicion here feels weird to me. It doesn't make him any more likely scum or town from my point of view. Unless he deliberately quickhammered with the plan of playing a newbie card afterwards, which I find unlikely.

I'm curious about your reads at this point, if you have any you are willing to share? Your shaddowez name is so mysterious! =O

[Dyslexicon]

YYR is confusing me, so he's probably Town, too.

This be meta, not meta or joke?

[Dyslexicon]

I can tell I'm going to be lol and %) and mafia feeelz when I catch upø. But I'm not going to do that now.
My sister is visiting (I live abroad), and I won't be as active as I would like to just this weekend. But we have tiiiiime.

[Dyslexicon]

Hi Thor <3

[Dyslexicon]

Blair! *buddies*

[Dyslexicon]

That last version is really different than anything I ever got in my head (Thor), and I write drama for a living and it's pretty cool as such. And I will need to read again. BAIIII

[Dyslexicon]

With Blair, it's a lot of the same things that Thor's been calling out, actually- the use of the word "illogical", for example, always has me a bit wary- even more so because it's being used not to describe Thor's argument when she uses it, but Thor himself- going for the man, not the argument strikes me as a bit off. It may be faulty reasoning on my part, but it almost feels like (and I want to make it absolutely clear I am not saying this is the case, it's just the feeling I get from the wording) Blair is conceding that the argument is accurate, and as she can't refute the argument to discredit it, she's trying to discredit the argument by discrediting Thor and getting the argument by association. That's not town behaviour, to my eyes.

I didn't really take it as a "going after the man". I think the whole thing between them is a lot of miscommunication and stubbornness from both sides and that could mean town or scum from either. Yay, conclusion!

1. And I still don't get it. I don't get why it's so logical to assume Cheetory was claiming scum. To me it is not. I think it should be clear that I don't understand it, and I'm asking you to try and explain it in a different way than what you have. I don't see why you're so opposed to this, and I don't think it's too much to ask.

Do you understand what I was calling her scum for? Whether or not you agree with me, do you understand my case?
If yes - then I don't get the point of this question.
If no - what part of my case confuses you and I'll expand on it.

I didn't. I do now, cause you made a pretty list. I didn't get it cause I didn't get at all that his supposed bad logic meant he was scum. And I didn't fint the logic too bad either (to clarify, the logic you get out of his posts is bad, but I don't think that's what he was really saying or meant to say).

I didn't want to get into it because I want wgerurts dead. I wanted him dead 12 hours ago, and for some reason town is derping around and wanting to be distracted. i do not think it is a good idea.

And I wondered why? See, it's not obvious to me why we should have lynched wgeurts 12 hours ago from this post of yours.

If you want it explained in a different way...well, first off ASK THAT. Don't say "you haven't explained it" say "I don't understand your stated reasoning". Those are two vastly different requests and will be approached in different ways.
Also, if you don't understand, it would be helpful to be told *what* you don't understand, so that I don't waste my time. And if it's "everything" then you really need to be totally up front with that because what you're asking for is a baby steps walkthrough...and I reserve the right to be snarky if that's what I need to do.

I will try to communicate in a more direct way with you. Sometimes I think information is implicit in my posts, but it doesn't come across the same way for everyone, obviously. I'm also not used to thinking in terms of A or not A in the degree I experience you do (from your posts, but I might be wrong), and my head is more like bunny! plane! jumping <3.

I'm going to take from your answer the following.

1. You agree you aren't reading things.
2. You agree you are asking me to explain cases further by claiming I haven't explained them at all - and recognize this is a poor way to go about it.
3. You admit to needing baby steps.
4. You admit to trying to slow and collapse the day in discussing cases that are pointless or that are not being actively pushed by me to get a "read" from me while ignoring my primary push that is unquestionably going through today and kind of joinging in the general town herp-derp of wasting time and energy instead of getting a flip now.

Definitely not what I've been trying to communicate. I don't know where you take this from. But it's probably all my fault and never yours. :3 *tries some snark as well*
Seriously though, this is just weird. I'm sure you can get something else out of my post if you try.

I find this bothersome, and refuse to avoid snark in responding to you, and frankly think if you're requesting this you should recognize that you deserve some snark.
I'll do up a step by step breakdown of both cases now.

Your snark is cute though^^
I enjoy it.

I never claimed to oppose explaining it - why do you think I did? Please back up that statement with a quote or explain why you're trying to act like I'm doing something I very much am not doing.

I would like you to answer this though considering you admitted to not reading all my posts.
Because that's just screwy and anti-town.

I was refering to this.

No, I accused you of coming up with a cover story to an attack on me that makes no sense at all as soon as anyone looks at it.
I would tell you to kill me, but you can't, so after wgeurts we'll have PLENTY of time for me to explain exactly how scummy what you just said was.

Also this, although it's different. But you took a long time to actually explain your initial leap (which so shockingly wasn't self evident for me). You just refered back to your first post all the time. I feel I get the picture of what you actually meant now. So yay!

I'll explain it as soon as you explain to me how "I don't understand your logic, I'd love you to explain it" became "Thor's attack is illogical" until I forced you to explain it.

Because I'm pretty sure that makes you scum.
We'll verify with some rope in a little bit.

Basically, I'm thinking communication could be easier, and I'm trying to work towards that, believe it or not.

Thor's case on a dead player that someone wants explained.

Spoiler: Trying to spare town meaningless walls of snark...somewhat ;)

Firstly, I don't understand the point of bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning, especially since it seems to me like most of the players here seem experienced enough to know that bandwagon analysis can be useful for town. Why would scum not simply position themselves on a wagon in such a way that will protect them from the general analysis players apply to bandwagons? Unless the point is just to put pressure on someone? Which, again, scum equally stands to benefit from safe bandwagon votes for the sake of appearing to be playing protown.

droog's vote on me stands out as the most likely candidate for scum posing as a protown player for adding momentum to a wagon without really doing anything else, which reads as coasting to me. By extension, I'm also not particularly a fan of Dys's vote, but I feel worse about droog's. Droog also calls YYR's questioning of me bad scumhunting which almost makes me feel like he finds YYR more questionable than me and thus makes his vote on me for purely bandwagon's sake even more questionable.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. But you're pointing out that bandwagoning isn't helpful because scum can place themselves on bandwagons in a way to avoid suspicion.
You then vote Droog for the reasoning of "his position on the bandwagon looks suspicious"

I feel like I *must* be reading this wrong, because if I'm not I feel like you just claimed scum. Discuss?

That is not how I read her commentary. She indicated that bandwagon analysis is good for town, but that scum could use it against town by controlling where and how they place themselves, and does this while complaining about the wagon on her. So, basically, she's saying no town should be doing it because we should know scum would use it, yet she also thinks town are doing it and that scum are using it. Functionally she's suggesting that everyone here needs a combo of poor town play and good scum play in order for her case to make any sense. It's a wifom snarl, because there is no evidence presented as to why she thinks that way. To be frank, it's also weird because even though she's saying town should know not to do early bandwagons, her only scumhunting effort is based off of analysis of an early bandwagon, meaning that, as town, she understands that's *exactly* a good way to scumhunt whether or not we think scum can try to hide themselves. So...what's her boggle specifically? It doesn't gel for me.

Okay, the above represents my case.
Frankly, I ALREADY think this is a step by step breakdown, but I'll see what I can do to make it simpler.

1. Blair makes a post.
2. In this post she complains about town bandwagoning (her).
3. She admits bandwagoning is a potential scumhunting tool.
4. She lists reasons why bandwagoning is bad however.
5. That reason is that scum know it's a scumhunting tool and will play the game and use it against town.
6. Therefore it is bad that we're bandwagoning her, because we should be good enough to know there's no gain.
7. Oh, but she has some scumhunting.
8. Using bandwagon analysis.
9. That she just complained couldn't give good reads, so why are we doing it to her?
10. But she has the ability to spot scum doing the move the precludes the value of bandwagonig, and, hzzah! Has spotted scum!
11. So this begs a question.
12. If she agrees that even stealthy scum can be scumhunted on a bandwagon, and indeed *uses* bandwagoning as a scumhunting tool. Why is she against the bandwagon?
13. I theorized (incorrectly as we have discovered) that this showed she was lying about something for some purpose, because clearly she knew it was a tool and even more clearly she would choose to use it, so why complain about it happening.
14. My theory was that it was because the wagon was on her, specifically, and the crossed message was because she was scum trying to downplay the wagon on her by lying about her scumhunting beliefs...possibly instead she did feel that way about wagons but chose to fake scumhunt and call an attacker scum to try to defuse the wagon.
15. I point out the inherent lack of internal logic/lie/what have you, explain to her that I find it jarring and that I presume she must be claiming scum.
16. Certain town players are confused by this and choose to ask me about it in weird ways that don't involve just asking about it.
17. She and I talk.

If any of this confuses you please cite the number of the point that confuses you and explain the confusion as best you are able and I'll attempt to make it simpler.
Literally all of this information is already in my quoted posts.
So...I dunno, hope this helps.

Thanks! So here's the thing (or one thing, at least). I find what you take from Cheetory's posts selective and unnuanced. Why it was hard to follow in the first place is that I'm wasn't getting the same things from Cheetory's post (although admittedly I didn't read the last ones before after he had flipped town), and even if there is internal bad logic it isn't at all a case for him being scum imo. I was also not seeing why any of your earlier points on Blair was making her scum or town. I thought Acryon had more actual points to consider, although you were being more forceful about it. You point out a contradiction or something you don't agree with in #111 i.e and call her scum for it. I don't see why that makes her scum at all. It's like you jump from "I don't agree with your logic, and it can therefore not be seen as logical in any way, and therefore you are scum". I might be doing you unjustice, but this is the source of my confusion. My source of interest (in terms of alignment) is if you do this thing where you try to forcefully find holes in townie's logic to call them scum for it and the one comment from Johnny. I can see you coming from a town perspective too, but I'm wary cause I think you come across pretty similar as town and scum. I would be greatful if you provided me with a couple of games where you've been scum. I've already played with you as town, although that is a long time ago.

Thor's case on a living player that Thor is almost assuredly pursuing tomorrow but, despite the fact that neither Thor nor his target are lynch options and also despite the fact everyone will be around to discuss it with after a lynch that must go through today, we want to debate it now for a reason...of...not being able to figure out Thor's alignment without doing so...apparently?

Spoiler: Again, snark and wall behind here

Okay, so my issue with Blair. Let's start with this post.
This is an IMPORTANT post to remember. So, do your best to remember this post and when I go BUT REMEMBER THAT FIRST POST!?! That will be your cue to recall this post.

So you feel a strong urge to stand up for and defend this town read, i take it?

Yes, but not for it's own sake - it was more interesting to me that you appeared to be attacking poor logic... illogically.

Blair attacks me (or, by her language, talks to me...) I personally think calling someone illogical is an attack, but we can use whatever word you wish and my point will hold. Blair avocado's me, whichever.
Specifically she calls my

attack

avacado on Cheetory illogical. Read her reply a few times, let it sink in, and then we shall move on.

I respond and explain my issue with the logic of Cheetory, but we can leave that out for the sake of succictness, the important issue is that I ask this;

Why do you like the logic? Specifically as you can, please, I'm a little dense at times.

I will now post Blair's response and my rejoinder in one fell swoop, again to save space.

Why do you like the logic? Specifically as you can, please, I'm a little dense at times.

I don't like the logic, but I can believe that Cheetory meant it when he said it - and I do like that.

I'm tossing a flag on this play. You dinged me for attacking something illogically - I was attacking the logic of the statement. For me to have been illogical you *should* be able to defend the logic to show where your ding on me was coming from.

So please try this again, no dodging allowed. I have a vote and am ornery.

So, Blair was a little weird there, she didn't want to come out and defend the logic (or explain why I lacked logic, which would have been another way to answer the question)
Instead she didn't answer the question, she dodged it and tried to reframe it as "liking the honesty" from Cheetory.
Well...that's all well and good, but whether or not you think it is honest has *nothing* to do with me thinking it's illogical. In fact, if you agree her logic is bad (which Blair appears to do here) then...how am I being illogical in attacking bad logic?
Where am I being illogical in the *manner* I'm attacking the bad logic?

The answer does nothing for that.
It's a dodge.

My reply is a NOT ON MY WATCH, YO! reply, wherein I'm trying to force Blair to be specific.
I saw the dodge and was not happy.

Explain my illogic then. Because if the above is it I fail to see how you can justify calling something you don't understand 'illogical'.

Not understanding someone's logic is generally how I recognize poor logic, yes. It was also an invitation for you to explain that leap to me. Are you declining, or is it so self-evident that you don't feel it's necessary?

We follow this up. I am asking now for her to explain my illogic and why she found my logic illogical.
She replies with "well...I didn't even understand your logic, and really was inviting you to explain it"
But...REMEMBER THAT POST!?!

Her first commentary to me was an avacado - Thor is being illogical.
What she is saying now is that when she wrote that what she meant was "I do not understand your logic nd would like it explained...by the way, Thor, how can you think I was ever attacking you?"

Here's the real deal.

1. She *was* attacking me.
2. She never attempted to ask for my logic.
3. She ignored that in Post 74 I explained my logic (allowing her to now assess whether it was or was not illogical - something she hasn't done.
4. When I asked her straight up what she was about (and in her later claim what she was about was asking me to explain my logic) she *dodged* answering.

So, when her goal was "what was your logic" she said "you are illogical" ignored my logic explanation, and dodged my question the first time when I was questioning what she meant when she called me illogical.

You tell me, do you think any of her actions read as "what was your logic, Thor?"
Now read them again and ask if they make sense for a scum attacking me but then getting spooked when I challenged her to back up the attack and provide support and thoughts for it.

I know which I read it as.
And that's going to be my case on her tomorrow...which could come a lot sooner if town decides to attach its head straight.

I don't think any of this proves her alignment scum or town.

what can we do in day 2 we cant do in day 3?

Talk to wgeurts.

I mean, we're even already having Day 3 discussion now. It's mind boggling.

To think such a strange occurance can come to be! Day 3 discussion in day 2. It's not the right order! I don't see the problem. But since wgeurts didn't want to help out anyway, I guess it's just the same. And yes. Pressure of killing is fun.

thor

this is a textbook semantic wall argument
no one will decipher it all
classic town v. town tactics

which only makes me wonder if you're both scum. probably not.

am doing an iso of blair to elaborate on before

p-edit

this discussion is getting lamer by the post

I like you.

You think I am lying about seeing poor logic in your post.

I am saying that equating poor internal logic with a scum claim is illogical.

I am also saying that I see that equation in your post.

Subsequent dialing down is irrelevant, were you or were you not saying that if you understood Cheetory's post correctly then he was 100% scum? Because that's what "you just claimed scum" would indicate to me.

I must say though, that bolded is pretty obvious. I don't think Thor really thinks that is the case.

No, let's not shut this down, let's go;

I'm looking; there is literally nothing suggesting that I was taking a hard line stance on her answers nor that any non-suitable answer would confirm her as scum. Every post is about me trying to understand her stance and get her to explain it. There is nothing to support your claim besides a "you claimed scum" comment...which is apparently the end of all discussion from me towards Cheetory despite being one of the very first things I said to her and never being mentioned by me again - yet that is your big hangup as far as my interactions with her goes?

How does that even work?
Like, why were you so worried that I was going hard line on her (And are till worried that I did) when, that one quote (which, I might suggest comes off as more pressure/joke than serious stance I expected people to sheep) is the only evidence you have and every other interaction showed me talking to her about her thoughts, agreeing with and disagreeing with various parts of them, and even discussing th logic of her vote and offering to help her wagon someone else.

Like...your case is so empty here. What is your boggle, where is the other support that I was being hard line? Where is the other evidence to show my belief was hard line? Where's the beef here?

You're taking one comment and trying to build a mountain of it - what am I missing?

You kind of write as you're hard line, probably more than you really are. Where I think you have a point about Blair is that it's possible she doesn't really care or need the discussion you're in as much as she pretends. Or rather, that there is pretending involved, which would come from scum. I don't think she has a "case" on you, and I don't think she was trying to. I think it's possible that she discuss things just to discuss. I don't see that as town.

Like...your case is so empty here. What is your boggle, where is the other support that I was being hard line? Where is the other evidence to show my belief was hard line? Where's the beef here?

i think youre really mistaken to call anything blair has said against you a case

actually, blair, im interested to know what your current thor read is

p-edit

thor i thought it was clear from the start that blair thought your logic was bad because you equated cheetory's bad logic on me to a scum claim

i think half the resulting kerfuffle is about how serious that original remark was

I like you.

have fun you crazy couple you

I love you!

dyslexicon

reads list please

This will have to be later.
Right off the bat, I'm hesitant about a lot of my reads.
You read town to me.
Thor reads more town, but I still want to investigate him further because my feels said to D1.
I'm worried that Blair is purposfully derailing with useless things. And I'm also worried about her lack of commenting for me having town feels on her (I think I stated this earlier, possibly more than once). And so, she's down to null.
I think Phil have pretty posts, but I want to see more.
I have little opinion on YYR and Shodwz. Which bothers me. Especially Shadowz is getting my squinty stare.
Other people I forget. Oh, Acryon. Acryon could be scum.

Basically I have few strong stances on anyone. I haven't ruled anyone out yet. This will need to be fixed.

i think i said earlier blair was null
your exchange was a classic town v town exchange
still null on blair, maybe null-town?

sure but my yyr goal isnt huge. i want to hear more from dyslex and shaddowez
gut feeling after day 1 tells me there's scum somewhere in yyr/dyslex/shaddowez

I'm curious why noone is reading me as town :3

---

Uh. I might be even vaguer than usual. XD

Have a heart. <3

[Dyslexicon]

Ugh. Town >_>

[Dyslexicon]

Basically I have few strong stances on anyone. I haven't ruled anyone out yet. This will need to be fixed.

This actually sums up Dyx's wall.

I have actually seen players post more to say even less, but not often.
There were about two actual points in that whole thing.

If you want scum games click on my topics list and pick and pluck away - I have a ton of them.
I will admit that I have a ard time believing you're actually going to meta me by reading other games though - as you can barely manage this one.

Unvote: Blair
Vote: Dyslexicon

I'm not a pointy kind of person. And in this particular game there's not a lot of content on alot of the players. A lot of the focus has been on you and Blair going back and forth.

I was actually wanting you to pick one and then also read another, but I guess I'll just have to find the one for myself :3
I'll read it, but not now (cause time issues).

So is your alligation that I "can barely manage the game", or that I'm scum? What is making me scummy in that case? Cause here you're not really accusing me of being scum apart from voting me which can be taken as an accusation. I would want to know why you think I'm scum rather than town.

Also, did you answer the question I had earlier about if you think Cheetory's lynch would have gone through if wgeurts hadn't quickhammered? I think not?

Also also, what do you make of how people read you, if anything?

You read town to me.
Thor reads more town, but I still want to investigate him further because my feels said to D1.
I'm worried that Blair is purposfully derailing with useless things. And I'm also worried about her lack of commenting for me having town feels on her (I think I stated this earlier, possibly more than once). And so, she's down to null.
I think Phil have pretty posts, but I want to see more.
I have little opinion on YYR and Shodwz. Which bothers me. Especially Shadowz is getting my squinty stare.
Other people I forget. Oh, Acryon. Acryon could be scum.

Basically I have few strong stances on anyone. I haven't ruled anyone out yet. This will need to be fixed.

im having a great deal of difficulty telling if your reads are
"oh oh, scum!" or
"oh oh, shiny!"

this inches you toward my town pile
and makes me want to ignore your reads

I don't have very strong reads right now. I don't think I'm alone on this, but that's not really relevant. What's relevant is that I don't and I'm not going to pretend I do.

I get the feeling that Thor doesn't really think I'm scum.
I'm confused by the town reads on him. Which is why I need to look over what scum!Thor looks like.
Apart from that there's basically a bunch of people I need to here more from.
First guess on scum on hunch from D1 would be Thor.


@Phil, can you please explain to me why Thor is solid town to you?

[Dyslexicon]

So is your alligation that I "can barely manage the game", or that I'm scum? What is making me scummy in that case? Cause here you're not really accusing me of being scum apart from voting me which can be taken as an accusation. I would want to know why you think I'm scum rather than town.

My accusation is really pretty clear...but as far as I can tell no one in this game is capable of reading beyond surface level. It's very strange.
I pointed out that you were barely able to read this game.
I noted that you were asking for other games to read.
I suggested this is a sham - because if you don't have time to read this game then you certainly don't have time to meta dive others.

In short - I am saying that you're extroverting fake scumhunting commentary to try to cover for doing nothing, and am calling you scum because of it.
Hope that makes sense, who can tell anymore.

I disagree that I'm barely able to read the game. I read English pretty well. That I don't interpret it the way you want to =/= I can't read the game. I can't read the game the same way you do. That is true. It's painfully clear we have vastly different thought patterns. I did read some of your games (I skimmed most of course, cause I'm not going to use that much time right now (I can't anyway)). I got the impression that you are slightly less snarky and interested in bashing other players in the scum games I saw. I could read this as town frustration. However, you did have narrow focus (and I don't recall your focus being that narrow in the other game I played with you).

This is definitely a bad accusation. It's your subjective opinion that I can't read the game at best. I did dig up your games, and I'll likely dig up more when I have more time if I'm still not satisfied. If you can't tell, I don't come to hard conclusions often in a game of imperfect information.

What speaks scum for you still:
- Johnny's comment and mah feels to it.
- Interpreting posts in a selective way and just going for it. Someone said something like "ceating your own narratives" about other players (and one at a time) when you were scum in a game. That's what it feels like.
- I still don't actually think you think I'm scum. I don't feel it.

What speaks town for you:
- Activety (although a lot of it was for one discussion)
- Frustration, if from town. (This is not an invite to make you come across as more frustrated :3)

I didn't, but it's kind of a dumb question. 'Maybe, but I don't know' is the best anyone could do in answering it if they were being remotely honest.

Cool. I was wondering because you said this to Blair after Cheetory's lynch:

Scum motive would be to get town cred by defending a likely mislynch who would flip town while setting yourself up the next day to call the primary pusher of said wagon scummy for "illogic" attack, and then push to get me lynched. This is an incredibly basic scum strategy and considering the way you have talked about the game I do not believe for one second that you have no idea of it as a strategy.

I personally don't think Cheetory was a likely lynch, and in any case not a lynch Blair (if scum) would know or have good reason to believe would go through. And you kind of suggest that she planned to "attack" you for it when he flips town. You are calling it a likely mislynch here for your argument, and so I was wondering if you just picked that up to have more "points" on Blair. It doesn't read thought through from a town perspective, more like an afterthought.

As I've noted before, I'm not shy, if I got a read off of any of it I would have said so. Most people are town reading me or calling me some sort of nebulous thing, which is pretty normal. Most of the reasoning is pretty thin. No one has said anything particularly insightful nor strong opinioned as far as I go besides *maybe* Blair's commentary which I don't think makes sense, or your new recent flip flop which I'll discuss in a few.

I know that you're not shy, but I reserve my right to ask you questions as I don't believe you would share everything on your mind all the time. I've not bit flip flopping as much as you think (more on this further down). Phil called you solid town. That is strong opinioned. Do you beg to differ? I'm curious why you aren't curious, especially if you don't find his reasoning insightful? Or do you? Also, do you think I would spend my time arguing with you if I was scum? This is a serious question.

First guess on scum on hunch from D1 would be Thor

.

Oh really? But mere moments ago the commentary was thus;

Thor reads more town

, but I still want to investigate him further because my feels said to D1.

I wonder what happened betwixt and between to change your thoughts or clarify them?
Oh, wait, I did this;

Unvote: Blair
Vote: Dyslexicon

Amirite? [/quote]
You read more town than I had been reading you in that interaction. Not town. You've never been a town read to me, and actually never very far from null. Scum/null/I has the suspicionz. To be fair that might have been unclear in my post, but my thought process has never been you as a town read.

[Dyslexicon]

You are pretty apparently not reading this game. i am not debating understanding (I don't think it needs to be debated :rimshot: but you are clearly having issues with reading this game.

That's not something for you to decide. It's not debatable that I read the game. Why are you making up things like this? For real. Stop it. It's annoying. And counter productive.

I do not believe you have read other games of mine.
I might buy that you lightly skimmed them, but if you'd read them enough to have opinions you would have opinions in this game - that is my point.

This is not debatable either. You can believe what the hell you want. I did, I used the time I had, I did it the way I wanted to, I have an opinion, it is not conclusive. Maybe I'll do more, who knows. I don't plan my every move in the world. Your claims here are absolutely BS. You can't decide whether or not I read the game, I'm very sorry, you just can't. I find it anti-town, cause this leads nowhere: "You don't read the game. You didn't read my past games." "Um. Yes." I have read the game. I've described to you what I've done further. I've not claimed it to be hard work or good scum hunting or whatever the hell else you are trying to put in my mouth here. This is all I'll say about that.

I am no more frustrated than normal in this game, and if you think I have a narrow focus I would challenge you to name the player I haven't interacted with...yeah.

I'm not talking about "interacting". I'm talking about you having a thing with Cheetory, rah rah. A thing with Blair, rah rah. And now a thing with me, rah rah. All of those are the most memorable, to me. To be fair a lot of other players haven't posted a whole lot or a whole lot of importance, so it isn't just you that has "narrow focus" (I do as well, but this was in relation to what I saw in your past games (although admittedly I should check upon town games as well. I'll do it if I FEEL LIKE IT.)

I agree you are saying things that are not conclusions while claiming to be getting lots of evidence and working hard behind the scenes.

I'm not claiming to get lots of evidence or working hard behind the scenes. You are claiming that I'm claiming that right here. I haven't. Don't put words in my mouth. This is what I mean when I say you spin narratives out of my posts. Go read my posts again, I've been describing my thought patterns and actions openly, whether or not you like them or agree with them.

She came in and defended an L-1 wagon, by any definition that is a likely lynch.
That is different than 'would be lynched' which is what you asked me.
I hope that explains the difference.
My point was quite good.

A lot of those votes was from RVS. The quickhammer was random. Not any L-1 wagon, imo.
Your point about that being a possible scum tactic is valid, but only as far as Blair a) is scum, and b) thought Cheetory was a likely lynch. The theory is maybe slightly strengthened by first VT being vengeful. To me it seems a bit paranoid or manifactured depending on your alignment.

Calling me 'solid town' with no reasoning of note and no proactive actions from it is *not* a strong opinion. It is simply a clearly stated opinion. We have no idea how strong that opinion is at this stage.

You have failed to show why I should be curious, so I'm not sure where you come from asking me why I'm not curious. You might as well ask me why I'm not curious about his null read on you. They are of equal value to be curious about. I am curious about many things, that said the human mind can only juggle so many tasks and the Mafia thread can handle less than that.

I do not find his reasoning insightful.

To me "solid town" seems like a strong opinion. Maybe, just maybe, different players perceive things differently, and that one can attribute intention accordingly. /return of the snark. As you've been taking notice on, I don't have strong opinions on anyone, and it takes a lot for me to get that at all, except if it doesn't. Deal with it. I've been waiting for the quieter players to show up too.

It's good that you are curious about many things. Huzzah! (I found the read notheworthy, but apparently you didn't.)

Yes, I think you would spend time arguing with me as scum. Why should I not think this?

I'm not going to answer this just now.^^

So...basically your strongest scum read became less scummy, and may be nullish.
Do you feel like wet cardboard yet?
You should feel like wet cardboard.

I feel like myself.

You are stating opinions like they're fact. You're not wet cardboard, but it's annoying.

that is a large series of walls

pretty sure thor caught you in a blatant contradiction dys

Where?

dyslex, please talk to someone besides thor
who is doing a great job at absorbing all discussion
and preventing anyone else from having meaningful interactions

Yes. I will.
I want more people here.

Actually I feel her answer makes sense.

It still relegates her to saying "nothing-at-feth-all" but it makes sense.

Contextually even

Of a more valid point though, for someone who cannot read this game enough to offer up a single read - what do you make of her asking me for other games of mine for her to analyze? And then a claim of having skimmed some (in my opinion - aka opening them up and loosely scrolling through so she can claim something...maybe). I'm not buying that story at all. Someone who is actually doing that sort of research would be able to say something. I also don't believe she's doing research on anyone else, so, like, I'm her single option super investigation while everyone else is just null slop? Nah, I don't buy it.

I did offer up my reads/opinions. That they are not conclusive you will all just have to deal with. Personally, I don't understand how anyone has strong opinions and reads right now. I'm not that kind of person in mafia, I'm just not. And this game is especially "dry" right now. I promise you that all the reads, hunches or feels I do have will be announced in time. Take it or leave it. I don't care what you "buy" that I'm doing or not doing. Please come up with something better.

another post mafiascum didnt show me
i think if she was scum trying to lynch you there are a lot of steps she could have cut out
scum not trying to lynch you would make more sense

however mafiascum time and time again has no perfect townies
dyslex being ditzy speaks much more to me as town than scum

plus, lots of townies can convince themselves that they're doing good scumhunting when they're not
do you have any explanations that would impart scum motives to dys?

I'm not trying to lynch Thor or anyone right now. Most people aren't even posting.

I haven't claimed to do "good scumhunting". I know very well my reads are vague and I very much crave more of a feel for the game. I'm used to faster paced games, and so to me there's a lot of silence here. I'm following the instincts I do have, whether or not you like it, and I'm going to keep doing that.^^

I don't think she's trying to lynch me, and never meant to imply as such.

I do think she's trying to present herself as scumhunting more the instant pressure was applied to her. Prior to my pressure it was all "Lulz :3" after my pressure suddenly she's looking at past games and analyzing things.
It feels faked to me. I think if she was town and thought she was doing fine before she would keep doing the same, and if she was town who thought she was doing poorly before would have a more wide range scumhunting work as she tried to get reads on multiple people. Instead she talks about doing all this intense work, but only about one player. That doesn't read wonky to you?

This is alligations that I don't do "good town work", not that I'm scum. I'm not parading anything as "intense work". I've been interested in you. You've been around. You're putting words in my mouth and make a horrible case. I'm looking forward to interact with other people too. And I'm sure we'll talk again. Maybe I'll try just observing you unless there are burning questions from either side. Good day, sir! *dramatic turn*

[Dyslexicon]

Hi! Won't be able to respond right now, unfortunately. But I will tomorrow night (my time Europeeee).
Glad to see this has picked up a bit.^^

[Dyslexicon]

Hi there thread.

Let's start with some reads, cause you all can't wait for that.

I'm going to split my read post up, because it's pretty long. I apologize for being wordy, and will try to be less so by posting more often.

Scummy:

Phil:

- First post with reads looks nice and proper. He presents the reads as not solid, and they have a lot of gut reasoning and weak reasoning that doesn't commit to anything (except killing wgeurts). To me that's null, but not as pretty as it looks. I still have a issue with the calling wgeurts lynch policy, but then also treating him as being very scummy.
- 134, interacting with wgeurts, he states "If you're scum, then we can disregard them. Or even better, figure out who your remaining partner is from your reads (though I admit that is very very WIFOMy)." I can't imagine why you would want to warn a scum read (especially that inexperienced!) that you can derive from his posts who his potential partners are. Seems untricky, not in a town way.
- 183, after I ask him he specifies the "one minor scum thing" and "one minor tow thing" in regards to his read on me, and the conclusion is basically that the town thing could be scum as well and the scum thing could be town as well. The post also contains the alligations that Blair was "attacking the man" with her infamous illogical-comment, which I still don't really get. And if he's going to arrest her for that, Thor himself is balancing that line many times anyway, imo (but that's a different story I guess, point is it seems like a non-point against Blair.) I also don't like this phrasing: "the use of the word "illogical", for example, always has me a bit wary". It just seems like scum phrasing to me. That's a gut thing.
- 275, this is a detail, but something that struck me: The phrasing "Even though it's apparently an unpopular opinion, I'm still thinking YYR is where my next lynch would go if Wgeurts flipped town." is framing his stance as "unpopular" but something he is willing to stand for anyway. I'll come back to why this strikes me. In the same post he states that if wgeurts flipped scum he would want to do more analysis on scum interaction. Scum so far would then be Johnny and wgeurts, not a lot of posts to go through. And wgeurts would be a scum read for Phil anyway, so that statement feels disgenuine to me.
- 297, is just explaining why Thor is solid town. Read the reasoning for yourself. I don't find it convincing, and notice how Phil praises Thor for his methods. This could be scum buddying/town reading a strong willed town player (if Thor is indeed town).
- 328, I get really bad feels from this post. First confessing that he hasn't read all of the Thor/Blair interaction (I seriously hope I find Thor flipping tables because of this), which I find strange because Phil has mentioned several times that Blair is a null read necause some is town and some is not, which sounds to me like someone you would like to read all the posts from. I don't find that he really defends the idea that Blair "attacked the man" convincingly, and talks most about how Blair is still null. He states: "This strikes me as something townish- not making any judgements until you've had time to gather information, which is, again, a mark of genuine scumhunting." I wonder how this goes hand in hand with praising Thor for his methods, which I (and I have the impression I'm not the only one) experience as not not making judgements, but rather jumping the gun with whatever semantic/problems he can derive from posts. (Thor, don't hate on me until I come to my read on you.) So it's praiding Thor's methods which to me is very forceful, and then praising Blairs holding off on judgement which to me is something entirely different. And, he now brings back again that it is townish of Blair to attack him rather than some of the more "popular" targets. This goes back to the detail of post 275, when he shows he is aware of how this looks townish (to him anyway), and frames his own action in this light.
- Last post he's posted until now is about moi. It seems inconclusive, but he isn't done. Hi.

I also find Phil to feel the most distant or rehearsed.

VOTE: Phillammon

[Dyslexicon]

Scummy, but a hard read to me because of reasons:

Thor:

My main concerns are as following:
- I find it hard to read Thor, because a lot of his posts annoys me. Especially, and naturally, the ones focusing on me, putting words in my mouth (saying I'm claiming I'm doing hard work, or having read several games of his (it was two btw) and cutting out pieces of my posts to show me how I don't read the game.) The turn on me was sudden, after having Blair as a focus and thinking she was scummy. The reasons are terrible. I experience his reasoning basically that I'm not reading things, or not reading what I say I am. This is something that I can't prove, and so it's just pointless discussion. I let myself get annoyed, probably too annoyed. Then there's the issue that I don't have stances. I think it's weird to pick me out on this when at the time there was little discussion being had, and the discussion that was there was pretty repetitive. I don't find a lot of players had solid stances, and some hardly posted. I was being open that my reads weren't strong, and I will continue to be when they aren't. Lame point.
- My interest in Thor was on more so from gut from Johnny's post. Initially I took what I preceive as writing in an inflexible manner as more town, but I also thought that Thor would do this as scum (and actually have pretty much the same tone as town and scum). This is why I wanted to check, and I found that I think he does overall have the same tone.
- I didn't like his focus on Cheetory (although I wasn't aroudn then). I certainly don't like his focus on me. It's like he just has decided upon things, refuses to listen, and his "your logic isn't mine logic and therefore you must be scum"-stances are very much what I imagine scum!Thor would do.
- He's also mainly arguing anyone who questions or suspects him. I don't find it town at all. He seems very defensive.

Null, but I could see you being paired with both of my scum reads:

Blair:

- The discussion between Thor and Blair seems weird to me. I can't be too specific about it, but it seems Blair knows that the discussion is kind of counter productive and Thor is making a mountain of it, and that she somehow doesn't have responsibility in that. I didn't like that.
- Early on she seemed town to me though.
- Could easily see Blair paired with Phil.
- I didn't really like her no-stance on me. She says both town and scum has feelings, but apparently is unable to derive anything in regards to where my feelings stem from?
- 401, I don't like, and will need to answer. But you are misrepresenting things here.

She's still null to me though, cause I can't shake that gut town thing from the start. =/ O.o

Null, and wouldn't be shocked if scum:

YYR and now Fink:

I deleted this, cause it didn't say much either way. New replacement new read.

Two questions to regular players:
- Is saying "Imma catch up" and then replacing normal here? Does it mean anything in regards to alignment?
- Maybe silly, but what is an Alt? Is it a second account or something? o.o

[Dyslexicon]

More null:

Shadow:

- Don't agree especially with a lot of his reads. I do like his "no nonsense" way of posting, as it comes off as having nothing to hide. Want more involvement.
- Don't understand her issue with me other than having "low content". That I use emoticons and stuff you just have to get used to :3
- Haven't really stood too much out to me. If my gut where to decide, I'd say maybe town.

Null, but maybe leaning townish:

Acryon:

- I wasn't initially having good feels on acryon with his focus on Blair. I don't know why though.
- I like his comment about Phil's lack of town-drive in his read post, since I've felt Phil as distant. Seems like something town would easier pick up on than scum fabricating.
- I do like him going after Thor, just because whether or not Thor is town or scum I don't think scum would go after Thor and open for a big discussion, because that normally ends up in long discussion with an indignant Thor that would have things to say about it.

Townish:

Droog:

- Townish for lack of scumminess.
- Also, I find he posts reactions in real time.
- Focus discussion.

All in all comes across town. Still not set in stone with any read ever, almost. Edit: And by the time I got to post this I'm a bit paranoid again. Dunno. Still townish.
- Oh, I did find it peculiar that he was worried noone read him as scummy. Why do you expect people to?

Bins:

- When she describes her read on Blair, I can pretty much agree with all she is describing, and this is my main reason for reading her town. I understand where she's coming from in general, but especially this read reads genuine town mindset to me.
- She also had the post she said she was working on ready, and not being secretive about it. Liked it.

Could actually be my strongest town read. Hah!

Warning: I post these reads having read up until post 456.
I will now read the few posts afterwards, and respond to stuff I feel I want to or need to respond to.
My Phil read is more thorough since he's the scummiest one to me. Other reads are more colored by what my thoughts have been/is on them as I go.
I will try not go this long without posting, both for my own sake, and for the sake of avoiding to post such long posts.

[Dyslexicon]

@Droog, needed a break after catching up and do reads. Will get to the other stuff as soon as I have candy and coffee.

[Dyslexicon]

I'm currently reading up. I expect to have a post out by tonight, if not, I probably got distracted by America's Next Top Model or something.

Phil

- Town. He's been offering explanations and answering everything directed at him. He's also been giving town info about his thought processes, while scum are often likely to just say what they're thinking with no good reason.

I really don't get this read. Also, I disagree with the last sentence. I think town is generally more likely to just say what they are thinking with no (apparent) good reason, while scum tend to explain cause they have to create a town narrative in their head. (Of course this depends on the player, but I don't agree with what you're saying here).

I'd very much like an updated opinion on the YYR slot/Fink, and also seperate opinions on Thor and Blair.

I mean that saying "useful scumhunting" doesn't look like anything in particular seems like a good setup to be able to not do much. If people later on down the road say "it doesn't look like Dys is doing much in the ways of useful scumhunting", you could say "Well, I am scumhunting in my own way, how do you know what "useful scumhunting" looks like?"

I could. And so could anyone else. It works for anyone. It's not meant to be "useful defense", it's just how I see the game. I very much view this as a people game, and people are different. Which is much excite.

At the same time, I do have a hard time believing that she planned on poring over not one but

two

scum games of yours in any real detail, and she does admit to skimming in 301.

And I never said I was going to make them into pocket books and read them like a curriculum. Sorry to be joking about it, but I do find this point a bit ridiculous. I will try to explain once more:

- I didn't have good feels on Thor. However, his tone is what I've experienced him as town before. Therefore I wanted to see if his tone and presense felt generally the same if he was scum. Cause I haven't seen scum!Thor, so I wouldn't know.
- I found two recent games. I think his tone is generally the same. I got the sense that he had a bit of a narrow focus, and maybe slightly subdued to this game. But tone generally the same. I was happy with the findings, I'm not going to use all my energy into this game, but I got something out of it.

Of course I admit to skimming those games. Of course I did not read them religiously, and that was never the intent. I don't think I said anything that implied this at all.

tl;dr

: You were probably right to say she was disingenuous in asking for two scum games to read over (the very fact that she publicly asked for them when they aren't hard to find demonstrates she was more interested in making sure we all knew she was doing it than actually doing so), but you could have made this point without claiming she wasn't reading this game, either (which I think was just another way of saying "You aren't asking a lot of meaningful questions or drawing significant conclusions," which, again, is a point that can be made without the above claim).

I wasn't. I wanted to make sure of two things:

- I wanted to see not only one, but two games, as insurance.
- If Thor gave me one or two games (I actually thought I asked for one, but I see I asked for a couple), I would make sure to find another too, because I wouldn't trust him to give me representable games if he is indeed scum.

I asked this in thread because I remember people did that last game I played. I thought it was pretty normal. Thor was the one injecting that with me claiming to do hard work and stuff. I never said that, and I never meant that. What work I do or don't is what work I do or don't. Normally I take mafia (and most games) pretty seriously, believe it or not. It's still a game though, and I like to have fun.

Is there anything you or anyone don't understand about this?

If you believe me or not (or claim to do), I can't control. I naturally can't prove what I did or did not read.

Summary: You raised a fair point, but included an unnecessary and unverifiable jab that inevitably led to a lot of pointless arguing.

I don't think the post is very fair. Thor might be the type of person that would not read a game, posts here and there, only looking at one person. Or he might be, I don't really know Thor, but he seems to like having things in order. That's cool. But I don't, not necessarily. I like to get the general vibe of things.

Proceeding to say I don't read this game is just ugh. Especially when other players are actually saying they haven't read parts and just gets light snark.

I have stated Phil as a town read.

As far as showing Dyxs' lack of reading, how about this;

You are right that I didn't read your very last posts.

Or this?

That last version is really different than anything I ever got in my head (Thor), and I write drama for a living and it's pretty cool as such. And I will need to read again. BAIIII

Which I'll agree she's claimign to have read - but is now saying she needs to read it twice before being able to offer comments on it...?
Or this?

(I skimmed most of course, cause I'm not going to use that much time right now (I can't anyway)

Which, fascinatingly, shows I was correct in my belief of her reading.

I'm going to do this in a list.

#1: You are quoting just a tiny bit of my post out of context. The full post explains how I hadn't read your last posts YET when posting one of mine. That is because I had just spent time catching up and mafiascum ate my post and it was gone. So I wrote it again WITHOUT looking at the post appearing in the meantime, because I didn't want to lose my train of thought or get more theories in my head confuzzling the thoughts I had there and then. I did, of course, read the post afterwards.

#2: I was pretty drunk when I posted that and the posts around then. I thought mafia was a good idea, but it probably wasn't and I definitely could not have a focused catch up then. Again, of course, I have read the posts afterwards. Maybe I should've explained my drunkness before, but I didn't really think it was such a big deal.

#3: This is a quote about the other games I looked into. Would it help if I called it looked into? Would you understand it then? It's not relevant to the BS claim that you make that I don't read this game anyway.

So on and so forth.
If you find the arguing pointless than don't discuss it.
What I'm asking you is - do you think she said that as town or as scum? You seem to be agreeing she said it for the look of the matter. Now what is your read on her alignment once you notice that? Because you said a lot without concluding much.

So, is your issue that it can happen that I haven't read things in order, or that I may even dare to post something without being 100% caught up? Ok, maybe you like it when everything is linnear, and think it's mind buggling to have D3 discussion on D2. I don't. How does this makes me scummy? This is your only point on me. Noone else seems to have such a big issue with it, but you really TRY to make it an issue. You're taking things way too literal if you really believe I'm not reading the game.

---

Between acryon and Thor: I don't think acryon's point is very good. However, I don't think he comes across as scummy for it. More town, actually. Thor saying that he thought wgeurt was scummy and that policy lynch is also a scumness lynch is a question of belief to me. I don't agree that it's scummy of Thor to not vote Blair under the circumstances.

1. No one asked for my thoughts on wgeurts.

This bothers me. You've told me several times that "I'm not shy" as a way of implying that you will bring up what's on your mind. Now to say "noone asked me" is another example that you're just picking words to serve whatever your case is at the moment. I'm starting to think this is a null tell for you though.

No, I didn't say under certain conditions. I said under one condition, and it certainly didn't meet the criteria of that one. The only reason to ever not choose your #1 is if there is no time to complete a wagon. Otherwise, why would you ever go with the choice with a lower chance. That is completely illogical.

I don't agree with that. I too would've voted wgeurts that day, just because it would be totes sad if he was scum getting away with that. And because I didn't trust him, regardless of his alignment. If you asked my gut at the time it would've said town for him though.

[Dyslexicon]

Fink is a town read. Yes, because we agree on reads, and I find his reasons good. Don't see why he'd defend me like that if it wasn't real/town, and his reasoning reads town mindframe. The "this makes sense because I know I'm town" thing is kind of funny, but not scummy.

I'd be very interested in updated reads on this slot.

---

@Thor, I'm not going to respond to you anymore unless you or other people find it strictly necessary. It goes nowhere. You clearly have no interest in listening to anything I say. You seem more interested in discrediting me at any chance. Btw, I think the discrediting of players (not only me) is getting really old, and I hope for less of that and more of the cute snark.

Would lynch Phil (1st) or Thor (2nd).

[Dyslexicon]

Dyslexicon:

What exactly did you want clarification on in my #401? I'm more than happy to answer, but I'm unclear on what the question is.

I meant I needed to clarify to you. I did, 492.

@Dyx - how many of my games did you read/skim/look over? Just the two?

Two where you were scum, but I looked over more of the recent ones cause I used the search posts function and didn't know beforehand what games you were scum or not. Don't know if there's an easier way to do this.

the thor wagon is not moving today
everyone loves to attack thor but no one wants to commit

personally i want some more flips before thor/blair

so join me on the yyr slot

VOTE: vote: fink

Everyone does not love to attack Thor. Thor loves to attack everyone that disagrees with him. I've seen three people being willing to vote Thor, and a lot of people have him as a town read for some reason. You've said multiple times that it's popular to attack Thor. How is it any more popular than to attack me for "not providing content" or other BS variations of Thor's endless stream of whateveritis? Or attacking Phil for that matter?

Not at all interested in voting Fink.

How about Dyx, do you have Dyx as town? Let's flip Dyx which will actually even give *insight* into the Thor/Blair false dilemma people are excited about.

What are you even talking about here? What insight?

Phillammon looks much worse, seems stretching a lot for pushing any of several

mislynches

in #328,

especially as reading through this, the several clarifications on the case on my predecessory were lost in the noise to me reading it, I find it hard to believe it's so obvious and unlikely to him that others could also lose that in the noise.

btw was this a slip?
need to find #328 manually since the link heads to a different game

I do wonder, why did you not adress this, Fink?

I have my thoughts. Still think Fink is town.

How about Dyx, do you have Dyx as town? Let's flip Dyx which will actually even give *insight* into the Thor/Blair false dilemma people are excited about.

Dyx is null to me right now. I think a Thor flip would be good.

How am I null. Have I not provided enough for you to have a read or at least a feel on me either way?

[Dyslexicon]

---


@Thor, 498. 1a. The alligations that I'm posting more thoughts because I was called out for not doing it is so ugly, because a) I post more thoughts and you can call it scum cause oh no I had to post thoughts or b) I don't post more thoughts and you can ceep calling me scum because I'm not posting thoughts.
1b. The alligations that I didn't have solid reads are shit in the first place cause it was at a time not everyone had posted content anyway, a lot of other players did not have solid reads either (very few I believe, if any), and I didn't have a feel for the game yet.
1c. Someone (don't remember who, maybe Fink) suggested i was town being guilty I hadn't "contributed content" or whatever yet. I want to clarify that I'm not guilty. I just didn't have that strong of an opinion or a feel of everyone in the game. I didn't have a sense of the larger picture and how all of the players interact as a whole. ¨

2. Now your issue is that I asked you for games and going for "fake scumhunt points". I've explained this up and down, and if you've decided to not listen to me and ram on your way (as you obviously have and you've not listen to ANYTHING I've said ever, and I don't think you will) then fine. This is something I can't prove. It should be evident from my posts that my actions are town. Players can go back and see. You are the only one obsessing about this. This is the only thing you're even saying about me, apart from not agreeing (or even reading? Seriously, cause your "summations" sounds like fiction) with what I say. I'm so over adressing this. Which leads me to...

3. ...if you're so convinced I'm scum, why are you not adressing obvious things as how I called out Johnny D1? Or how I acted around wgeurts, asking him to contribute if he were town? Why are you not even trying to show me as scum as a whole, you're just. You know what. I don't even know. If this is your actual town play color me extremely underwhelmed.

---

Does Thor's "case" on me convince anyone of you guys? Why, why not? I want stances on this. If people want to vote me I want reasoning.

To me it seems like a cop out. A lazy vote with a lot of repetitive arguing over something I can't prove or disprove. He's not interested in listening to anyone but himself. I fear (and there's a reason I use this phrasing) that he's using it as a scum tactic to rally against anyone that will be likely to vote him and talk back to him. If he's scum and he succeeds in lynching a couple of town that wants to lynch him I fear that he'll be able to ram himself arguing semantics to victory.

---

I like Blair less. Especially 526, "Yes, if Dys is lynched and flips scum it would be perfectly reasonable to find my defense of her suspicious - that is a tell I wouldn't argue with. (Hold me to it!)". This does not seem town to me. It sound like you're not at all worried that I will flip scum. Which is curious, cause what she calls a "defense" of me doesn't sound very convincing to me.

---

What is up with me and Phil getting compared?
Can someone please answer me what and Alt is? I'm foreign and haven't played on here in ages. I also had a question about the replacement, asking how usual it is and what it might mean. Would be most thankful if someone would care to answer.

---

@Phil, 558, The reason I deleted the things I wrote about YYR in the first place was because my post was already so long, I didn't want to have too much unnecessary stuff there, and the read was highly inconclusive due to lack of involvement from YYR. If you or anyone really want to know my main point was that I thought "yeah, could be scum" after reading Droog's case but it didn't really convince me in any way. Since a replacement was here I expected to be able to read him better. In short: more of a null read on YYR and nothing I thought was worth spending words on as I'm naturally wordy anyway.

I would like you to adress the points in mine and Fink's case.

---

@shadows, I understand business. Please flesh out your reads and stances when you do have the time. I have a hard time remembering where you stand and especially why, unfortunately.

---

I would still lynch Phil or Thor, and not anyone else. Maybe Blair as a comromise.
All players reading the above as town, please state reasons why if you already haven't?

---

(I'm sorry if I'm coming across as bitchy in this post. I'm being a bit smack smack, because I do get emotionally invested in games. Have a heart <3)

[Dyslexicon]

@Phil, I would also appreciate some examples whenever you say things are "odd" or that people are having "odd statements" or saying "odd things", or that you are more specific in describing that they are things you don't agree with or things that doesn't make logical sense to you or whatever makes it "odd", because I don't know what you mean when you say this. It could mean about anything.

[Dyslexicon]

Oh, didn't realize it had been so long, sorry.

[Dyslexicon]

@Droog, you keep mentioning "real flips". What exactly do you mean by this? What is more real about those flips and who are they? Seriously confused by this. What questions are you missing that I haven't answered? Thor is ignoring a bunch of questions too. His only way of tackling things is to just dismiss questions, or rather the person behind them as being silly. Frustration is too nice of a word to how I feel about it. At this point I'm just tired of fighting with him.

I just find Thor's defense of Phil really weird. And I really think Phil is scum.

Regarding Fink:

He does come across as town to me. The only thing is that he seems very sure that I'm town, and keeps defending me quite fearlessly. I also after the Thor/Fink interaction don't see it as impossible that they are scum together. It's just something in how they seem to comfortably interact, a lack of worry or something (yes I'm talking feels, deal with it). This just feels different than the annoyment Fink has expressed earlier. That being said, a lot of the stuff he says are things I agree with and have thought of myself, and he even sometimes words it pretty much exactly how I've been thinking them, which is why I have a very hard time seeing him as scum. Right now, I think Thor/Fink is the only pairing I could see if Fink is scum. Also, his comment about if Thor is town he might not want to play with him again is brilliant if he is scum, cause that's exactly how I feel. When I do go "omg I feel the same way" i.e when Fink expresses confusion by Blairs defense/non-defense on me, that is how I see Fink as town. Plus he seems thorough and actually curious.

@Shadow, 586, In your read on me you mention stuff, but I fail to see why they are scummy to you, or what scum motivation you think you see, for example with me saying I was going to stop to respond to Thor, but then doing it anyway. What is the scum motivation? Also, I explained why I took YYR out of my reads in 560, did you read it? I see no reference to it.

I did notice acryon refering to YYR well after the replacement as well. Didn't like that tbh. I still feel acryon's push on Thor doesn't make total sense, but I don't see it as very scummy, I think because it's something he actually believes? I'd like to interact more with acryon. Hi acryon.

@598, just no.

Regarding what's up with Blair comparing me and Phil and just Blair stuff:

Don't really understand how. I still feel that articulating intuitions and feeling are perfectly valid, and obviously it helps being as concrete as possible, but I feel that this is what Blair is doing. And that seems real, but her confident on me flipping is so bizarre. Even the way it's phrased.

@Blair, 607, I was expecting more words. Can you answer me what an Alt is, cause noone else will?

The one motive that makes the most sense to me is that you essentially agreed with Thor because he didn't seem as crazy-pants to you as he did to me: because you feel like you

have

been going after Phil unfairly: since you know both he and Dys are town or something. Since Dys is one of my stronger town reads, and Phil is one of my stronger scum reads (reevaluating this depending on how you play out), your "double standard" didn't seem at all crazy to me, it seemed logical. I wouldn't have agreed with Thor, and based on your behavior earlier in the thread, I'm surprised you did. My best thought for why you would do that is that you have more information than I do (i.e. are scum). I'm open to other reasoning.

About this, remember it was Blair that first brought up that the me-case and phil-case were similar (Blair's cases anyway). And reading it again I could see it from a meta-perspective, but definitely disagree that my reads were as non-commital and flimsy as Phil's first read post where he also explicitly stated that they weren't solid at all. (It was a very early post though).

I want Blair to explain further before I offer more thoughts (which i do have).

---

I'm still wanting to flip Phil way more than anyone else right now. He'd have to show up (!) and convince me pretty hard that I shouldn't want his lynch for me moving my vote.

[Dyslexicon]

Didn't adress the "useful scumhunting"-comment by shadow, so:

This is one of the few things that actually makes me think much of anything about shadow (besides gut). I can buy it as a "didn't like this" and the way he's talking about it and how it wasn't a big issue seems real to me. It's also consistent with how he first misunderstood Fink's line of questioning. Reads town mindframe and not made up to me. There's not a lot of stuff to go off of from shadow, and I wish for more involvement from him. Makes me actually feel better about shadow than acryon, as I don't particularly like acryon pushing it further from there.

[Dyslexicon]

Thank you Thor, you're a sweetheart <3

Good night^^

[Dyslexicon]

@Dys - you seem aware that something is screwy with Blair. I know that basically in your mind I can be scumbuddies with any and everyone here (including Blair for some reason) so...I dunno, wanna help me bus my scumbuddy? You seem to have no real strong reads at all, so why not shift to whichever of Fink/Blair strikes you as a better wagon since you don't seem to have a strong scumread you're pushing. The other allowable solution is to actually, y'know, state your reasoning and some reads straight up, which would be new and exciting and at least let people know where you're coming from. I am bothered that you're not leading or stating much, yet are helping to lock down the wagons via an odd preference.

Dude. Pay attention. I have stronger reads than a lot of people, and even if you think I don't, I don't give a shit. If you find it hard to read between the line, here's the short version. You're welcome.

Scum read:
Phil. Let's lynch.

I don't even know, but dangerous if scum, and really obstructing the thread, going hard after two know town (from my perspective obv), not interested in listening, ridicules people he doesn't agree with, super defensive:
Thor. Would lynch.

Maybe scum, don't like the last posts and briefness of it:
Blair. Would lynch as compromise.

Just null:
Acryon

Leaning town:
Shadow (but still wanting more)
Bins/replacement (really liked Bins and read towny)

Town, right?:
Droog (BUT, please give more lengthy explanation for your reads, and explain this stuff about the "real flips".)

Town:
Fink (or else I'll cry )


Now tell me how these are any less strong than i.e shadow's reads, or mostly anyone else actually, or go bark up another tree. SO tired of having useless stabs back and forth with you, which, if you are town, is at least 90% communication style issues anyway.

Now sheep me. I know you want to.

I want Blair to explain further before I offer more thoughts (which i do have).

What would you like explained? Did my previous post cover it or were you referring to something else?

Not really. How explicit you were about the fact that "Yes, if dys flips scum, I expect to be suspected!" without seeming worried at all, I could maybe attribute to you being overly and maybe even jokingly explicit since you were talking with Thor. Or else I don't see the point in saying it at all. What is suspect about is that Thor was basically "Let's flip Dys just cause, and if Dys flips scum, you are next!" dun dun DUUN! And you were just like "Sigh. Ok." O.o

@Thor: I do not believe Blair to be scum. So no. I could be convinced to move onto Dys, but not onto Blair.

Why do you believe she is town?

@Dys: ....you do realize that basically everything you attributed to Blair in that post was said first by Thor? And for that matter, the argument goes both ways-

seeing as you are, to all intents and purposes, using Blair's case on me as your own, the fact that "your" case on me is near identical to Thor's case on you should be ringing some alarm bells

, if you genuinely are town. Specifically, because if you're town, you know that the argument is incorrect, but seem to think it's alright when you replace your name with mine in the key points.

I'm not using Blair's case as my own at all. I don't agree that the cases against us are identical at all. On the contrary, Blair explaining why they are not makes sense to me. Also, it's only one point being discussed, not the entirety of the two cases. [insert wtf is the case on me anyway rant?] I have already said this, I have already said I don't even think it's fair to compare is in it. So what's the point here? I'm not doing what you're saying here.

Actually, now I come to think of it properly, I don't need much convincing at all to move onto Dys at this point.

And what is

your

reasoning?
That I deleted my null thoughts on YYR? Cause I answered that, any comments?
Also, if you want to vote me what's stopping you?
Who else besides me do you think is scum?

[Dyslexicon]

You should - the game is about communication. if you're town and fail at communication then you fail as town.

I don't give a smurf that you don't like the way I'm thinking or posting. Since several people have been complaining about your communication, maybe this is also relevant for you?

Thank you, I did find it hard to read between the lines and find it beneficial that you state things clearly as you just did and had failed to do prior.

I'm glad it helped. I've been trying to be clear all the way. I'm not rigid though, so if you can't read between the lines you might miss important things.

(Funny sidenote, I seem to think you can't read between lines, and you seem to think I can't read lines.)

He's very carefully voting for wagons that look like they could be starting to take off while making as few waves as possible, as scum would do to encourage the mislynch without really being tied to it.

He literally just turned down an offer to hop onto Blair, a move he could have blamed (easily!) on me i things went south.

What's to say they're not both scum?
What even is this?
With all your complaints about people who are not reading the game (who actually are but whatever), and not contributing, you are STILL defending Phil?

[Dyslexicon]

Hm. The refusal to hop onto Blair is more of a null point to me, since I can interpret it in different ways.

[Dyslexicon]

I'm also willing to vote Blair. Phil is a stronger scum read, so I'd rather keep my vote on him.

I agree with this.
One of them is the more overt and clear method of communication though.

Not to me, really. Which is kind of the point. And especially in this game. It's not a math equation, it's messy human motivation. Anywayyy... *awkward half turn*

1. Nothing besides my reads at the moment. But if he thinks they're both scum I'd still rather he stick to Blair.
2. A complaint that he is killing the Blair wagon (that I support) to embolden the Phil wagon (that I oppose)
3. There is a difference between being an unoptimal player and scum. I call lots of plays bad, I don't call all bad plays scummy. There is a large difference.

Alright. I still think Phil is scum.

[Dyslexicon]

Careful, you almost stated an opinion there.

Haha, I knew you wouldn't be able to resist. Oh, what would you have done without me in the game, Thor? And for the record, it was an opinion: It's a null tell. I interpret it that you're seeing it as a town tell? I do not.

[Dyslexicon]

You two would make for a good sitcom married couple.

I actually understand Thor's position, I just strongly support the Phil wagon. If I were Thor I'd be a bit frustrated with me too. But I'd rather Phil take off than Blair.

You know what would be really nice? Acryon, Droog, Shaddowez, and a hypothetical Bins replacement getting some actual opinions about this. Also, I'd like a pony.

I was just about to write basically the same things. Especially the last point. I think moar voices are needed. And I'm ready for a lynch.

(Also, would you be our adopted child? If we earn enough from our sitcom, maybe you'll get a pony^^ Droog could be the haiku reading uncle :3)

[Dyslexicon]

I'm waiting on DCLXVI too, right now. I have to concur, that's one helluvan entrance, as they go.

How about responding to 636 in the meantime?

[Dyslexicon]

I was also mainly waiting for people other than Thor/Fink and/or for DCL to catch up.

Also: Kitty!

[Dyslexicon]

Won't have much time just tonight/tomorrow morning anyway though (a bit unpredictable, studies...)

[Dyslexicon]

I responded to part of that in #659, I'll handle the rest shortly, apologies for missing the other question

Unless I've misinterpreted (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), it was prettymuch entirely #560 (and by extension #526)- I've already mentioned that I found Blair's defences more townish than scummish, even with the suspect reasoning in #526. I'm unconvinced that pointing this out is enough to take someone off my hitlist, based on the points I've already made.

I'm a bit confused as to what "it" is refering to here. You point out my 560 and Blair's 526, and you say that you find Blair's defense more townish than scummish. So that is kind of answering why you don't think Blair is scum, although it's not very reasoned, so I'd like you to expand if you can. I don't see you answer any of my other questions here unless I'm missing something obvious?

[Dyslexicon]

But yeah. I'll wait for the response.

[Dyslexicon]

I don't hate your vote.
I'd rather lynch Phil.

:3

I'll have more to say when my silly research paper is done.

[Dyslexicon]

Of course I have actually already provided info on why Blair is a superior lynch, whereas your case on Phil has been questioned and not defended.

:3

>:(

I can't tonight. I have a head ache.

But really, I can't understand why you think he's town. Like, at all.
I might even be Acryon > Blair right now.
More on this and exciting stuff soon. I've been thinking about things (I know, Thor, it thrills you, but ceep calm, and you shall maybe get opinions from me :3)

[Dyslexicon]

Yes, droog, yes.

[Dyslexicon]

Thor, I'm not admitting lack of input. Sorry that you misunderstand me.

[Dyslexicon]

Also, three people on a wagon is not suspiciously large. It's suspiciously slow moving if you ask me. Anyway. Let's see if I can gather some thoughs.

[Dyslexicon]

1. So I've been thinking about the "amagad Dys is totes fake scum hunting for asking for my scum games guys" and the whole deal with that. Being more removed from it, I could see players, especially a player like Thor, getting caught up in it and take it that way. So this is just admitting that. I thought it was scummy at first especially the weight he gave it (well that is weird still, but), I don't really see it as a scum point anymore. I could see both scum!- and town!Thor doing that. That's that.

2. Phil is scummy guys. Come on. He is being more and more passive, and not explaining himself at all. In addition to his previous scumminess:
- In 558 he is "about to pronounce Dys null-town but making some odd statements", but he has an issue with me deleting my YYR read. Which I explained, and he then has no comment to it. In 633 he accuses me for using Blair's case on him (not true) that is identical to the case on me (definitely disagree). So he says that if I'm town I should know the argument is incorrect and therefore not applicable to him. Clever. Especially since I am town. However, I never believed the comparison to be fair or important in the first place.
- After I ask him a bunch of questions, about this among other things, he becomes passive and has nothing more to add. I don't even know what 659 is a response to, I must admit.

I think it makes total sense for scum to be passive and skipping things at this point. Especially if it's likely that they get lynched. Scum has no NKs anymore, and I don't believe it's party time in the scum QT unless scum is droog and Fink or something. It reads scum that has given up.

3. I've been given more thought to a Phil-acryon paring and I think it's a pretty likely one. A quick ctrl+f search find that Phil is refering to acryon a total of 2 times in his ISO:
Here:

Haven't woken up yet:

Fokem
acryon

And here:

For the record, in light of recent events, Droog and Thor are moved to Solid Town,

acryon has been provisionally placed as Townish

, and Blair is staying right where she is at null, because I'm seeing more good town behaviour at the same time as things that scare me...

(Side note, Blair: #222 actually really amuses me because you're using a False Dichotomy to attack a perceived logical fallacy)(Don't do that, by the way)

Phil only once refer to Shadow, but that is an explained read at least.

Acryon refers very little to Phil too (except from two quotes, two times to give reads that are null).

Phil and acryon both have almost no interaction with each other or shadow.

Shadow have more references to both acryon and Phil than them of him.

Note: I don't know if this is a "normal" way of scumhunting on these grasslands, but I find it interesting. Especially since it makes sense for me that scum would be passive. And because being two scum buddies it also makes sense to avoid interacting (it's pretty normal for scum anyway).

4. Blair. I've not been able to shake the gut feel that Blair is town. But that's that. The "double standard" that Thor is talking about I don't see as a double standard at all. It's simply a case of reading different players differently. What makes sense for

this

person, as town? As scum? And what makes sense for this? That's how I understand it, and to me completely elementary and straight forward. The Blair made about being suspicious if I flipped scum without being worried that I would doesn't make sense for town. But really, it doesn't make sense for scum either, unless you believe Blair to be careless/incompetent scum, which I don't really think. That is why my reaction to it is mostly, this is just weird.

All in all this makes me want to lynch acryon over Blair. Still rather Phil, just because I so strongly believe he is scum, and I will be really upset if he isn't.

[Dyslexicon]

Oh. Things happening. I need to make dinner, and then I'll be able to catch up.

[Dyslexicon]

Wow. Ok.

- Acryon says a lot of stuff that seems rushed. I can only mostly gut read this now, cause that was a lot of back and forth and wtf is this, but to me acryon seems more townish than scummish through his defense.
- His push on Thor reads townish to me (agree with Blair) unless he and Thor are scum together. I don't at all agree with him insisting on that you HAVE to vote your #1 scum read, and if anyone has the time this would be something to meta him on. Or if acryon himself has a done game where he is town and is insisting that? That would make the push pretty townish to me.
- The fact that he just pulled together a top of the head read post also seems townish to me, if like he says he thought he was going to be hammered at any moment.
- But then there's a lot of things that just doesn't make much sense.
- I don't understand the scum motivation for not voting Phil, unless they are scum together. I don't understand it as town either though, especially since Phil is indeed a scum read of his (weaker than Thor, but still).
- Don't get acryons scum read on me, cause that's new and not explained, acryon?

my reasoning is, the more posts you make, the more likely you are to make a scumslip

@ DCLXVI, Droog, Acryon, Shaddowz, Thor

So what do you guys think of this earlier comment given Phil's recent play? It seems suspicious to me that he's playing with so little commentary, especially now that he's suspected. He seems to be minimizing his responses, or is this just in my imagination? He still hasn't moved his vote OR explained his vote on me. I think it all fits with my over-cautious scum explaination, given that he agrees that that is how scum should play?

And he is basically hiding now.

@Acryon - why do you rule out Dys as my partner? Since they are 2nd or 3rd most likely scum, but if Phil flips town then #4 DC jumps into being my partner - why not #2-3 Dys?

I can think of lots of reasons >_>

@Fink - I see your point about Phil there. I will point out that whether or not he thinks the best way to scumhunt someone is to get them to post a lot does not mean that he thinks the best way to play as town is to post a lot - that isn't exactly an either/or situation. So, I'd give it a minor scum twinge, but nothing more. I feel like you think it's a solid hit out of the park - I am very much not with you on that.

You've been way too lenient on Phil, especially given how you've been barking at other players. He's actively avoiding questions, saying he's going to get to them, and saying he's going to continue this and that, and then nothing happens. His posts are more and more brief. It reads scum half given up all the way.

Also, your whole argument that Phil was an easier wagon. Obviously not. Someone comes in and offers acryon as an alternative and now he's way ahead. It's like Phil is coasting on one pretty post at the start that wasn't really that pretty anyway.

If I didn't know that lynching me doesn't help town at all, I would tell you to just lynch me, because I have unfortunately probably done town a lot less good than I intended at this point =\

This isn't convincing me though =/

Maybe a Dys, Fink, Droog, DCL...maybe.

Wow, we might almost agree on something here. O.o
Although, maybe I'd want Blair instead of you.

So Phil, why aren't you voting for them? Or if you are, why haven't you explained your vote on me any of the times I've asked you?

I have explained. Judging by the responses to your other points made in the next post, reading what people say rather than accusing them of not responding might be a good idea.

(Incidentally, may as well throw that on the pile. While I can see town motivations for trying to rile people up, I can see a hell of a lot more scum motivations for it)

If you're not lynched today I want you to get back to the questions you promised.

I responded to part of that in #659, I'll handle the rest shortly, apologies for missing the other question

---

I could see acryon being scum with specific partners (mostly Thor or Phil), obviously not both which is the problem.
I'm gut reading him town. I just am.
If Phil is not lynched I'm fine with lynching acryon, there's enough doubt and things I don't understand and things that are unexplained. Why are we not lynching Phil though? With the danger of being lazy I think both of them need to flip, but my scum read is so much stronger on Phil (if anyone was in any doubt about that).

I didn't like shadow's vote on acryon at all.

[Dyslexicon]

@DCL, what is your thoughts on Phil. I haven't heard you say anything about him except from asking shadow's this:

Unless I'm counting wrong (and I really hope I'm not), Acryon has 3 votes on him, which puts him at L-2.

VOTE: acryon

That makes it L-1. Please don't hammer him until he's come back from his V/LA and has time to respond to the most recent posts.

Why acryon instead of phil? You have both of them listed as suspects and bother were L-2 when you put that vote down?

[Dyslexicon]

I still like my Dys vote, but really don't see her being scum with Acryon

, who is my next highest scum read. I'm willing to compromise on him or Phil to ensure a lynch. Since I saw some votes on Acryon, I want to reread before moving my vote to make sure I don't derphammer.

A couple of reasons - while I never did a "rating" system, when I first did my reads list I did feel acryon was scummier than Phil. My read on Phil is partly PoE, and based more on his lack of scum hunting and following up on things. My read on acryon is actually based on things he is saying/how he is saying them, along with his interactions with other people. Additionally, I'm still suspicious of Dys (where my vote was before I moved it), and I see Dys/acryon being a more likely team than Dys/Phil. Since Phil and acryon were the two viable wagons,

since I moved my vote off Dys I'm going to move it to who I see as her partner

.

Um. I can see that it's super unlikely to see me and Phil as a potential scum team, but you said yourself that you couldn't see me with acryon, but now it looks like you can?
I don't really know why you're reading me as scum in the first place. Anything you're not satisfied with in my answers to you?

---

I know I'm repeating myself again and again, but I really feel strong about Phil.
I'm having more unsure feelings on acryon. And given how strong I feel about Phil and it seems like everyone is just sliding past his wagon, and it's super dodgy to me. I could really use a conformation or disconformation on Phil, but I realize that is my personal read.

Droog, Thor, shadow, DCL, if there's no chance one of you hop onto Phil, I'll hammer acryon.

[Dyslexicon]

@DCL, I was hoping for something more elaborate. Like, why?

[Dyslexicon]

no comment

Well then. *sips tea*

[Dyslexicon]

dys

- I'm still thinking scum on her, though possibly not as strongly as before. Based on ISO's, I could see an acryon/dys scum team though.

I still like my Dys vote, but really don't see her being scum with Acryon, who is my next highest scum read.

Since Phil and acryon were the two viable wagons, since I moved my vote off Dys I'm going to move it to who I see as her partner.

Actually, shadow, I'd like you to take me through your thought process on these changes here.
I have my thoughts, but I'd like to hear your's^^

[Dyslexicon]

Dys

- I should have said "who I more likely see as her partner". In the line just above where you bolded I said I see you as a more likely team, not outright saying that you are. I have liked what you've been saying lately, but I'll have to do a more complete reread to see if you still look scummy to me or not.

I'd still prefer an acryon lynch over a Phil lynch toDay.

That ok, but you're kind of using it as a relevant point. When if you "really don't see us being scum together" it's not really a relevant point, imo.

[Dyslexicon]

Um. So everyone thinking the quotes by shadow in 817 is alright? Cause I have an issue with it. Anyway, I want shadows to explain himself on that.

---

I'm feeling acryon will flip town. But I guess I'll see in the morning. Good night.

[Dyslexicon]

@Phil, What do you think of Thor's consistent town read of you?

I'm not particularly moved by Phil's reluctance to vote for acryon, nor his push on Fink for compromising on the acryon lynch. (I think it was pretty obvious Fink wanted Phil over acryon, and I agree with Fink on the point that the Phil lynch didn't seem to happen which was frustrating as hell, especially considering people HAD in fact mentioned the possibility of them agreeing to it, but then didn't after all.)

I wish for more elaborate thoughts from Droog. I want to see what his brain is thinking.

Very interested to hear DCL's reasons for Phil being town and full reads.

Shadow, get your butt in here.

[Dyslexicon]

Also, Blair, you've been extremely quiet lately, and I can't remember you saying a lot after you were pushed some. I don't like that and I want you to share your thoughts on everything going on.

[Dyslexicon]

@Shadow, you haven't really answered my whole question. Can you please explain your thought process between these two posts?

dys

- I'm still thinking scum on her, though possibly not as strongly as before. Based on ISO's, I could see an acryon/dys scum team though.

I still like my Dys vote, but really don't see her being scum with Acryon, who is my next highest scum read.

Based on ISO's you could see us as scum first, and you consistently had us as scum or at least not town reads, so what changed in between that made you think we could really not be teamed?

[Dyslexicon]

Now that acryon has flipped town, I'm actually willing to move you to null/lean town.

What impact did acryon's flip have on your read on me if you didn't see us as likely teamed anyway?

and even though it seems you're tunnelling on Phil at least you're giving arguments too, not just saying "sheep me" or "vote Phil, he's scum".

I've been giving arguments way before I ever said "sheep me". Not a change.

[Dyslexicon]

The first thing that I noticed was that you both had interactions with several other people in the beginning, but not each other. In posts 155, 157, 160, and 167 you have a brief back and forth that really provides no content, but provides the illusion of not distancing. You then don't interact for quite some time, including during the wgeurts lynch, which had neither of you on the wagon. His reads list in 382 has you as a null, and is very non-committal. Then, in your reads list in 479, you list him as null/leaning townish, which also seems very contrived and non-committal. Your response to acryon in 492 didn't do much for me, either, though at that point I was already thinking there could be a link.

In 605 and 619 each of you address Fink, and something about the way that each of you responded made me start questioning whether it would make sense as a team to talk to the same person the way you two were, and I was starting to doubt my team read. Your 621 pushes that a bit more, as you could have just let that go. Acryon could have continued to push the issue to try and get some heat on me, but rather than stand by you stepped in. You read him as null in 636 with no info, but you didn't provide content for...well, anyone really...so that's not really anything at all, other than you did downgrade him from leaning townish. Your 687 and 707 present even more chances for you to distance yourself, which you don't do. acryon had also had a lull in posting (it was over the weekend, so he may have been V/LA, I don't remember), which would have been another good time to continue not interacting, as you still hadn't been doing too much. At this point I felt all comments regarding acryon coming from you felt much more sincere and actually scum hunting than I did in the first part of the game, which led me to believe it was unlikely that you and him were a scum team.

Does that answer your question better?

It does answer the question. I don't see how the posts your pointing to really disproves a theory (me/acryon) you considered strong enough to express. It's rather vague, even if you point to specific posts. So it's an answer, but I'm not really sure how to feel about it. Not particularly good.

You were still a slight scum read, but if it was two out of the three of you, and it's not Phil and you, if acryon was town and I still think Phil is scum, that town reads you.

1. You scum read me to the point of still liking your vote on me at 712.
2. At the same time you really can't see me and acryon as a team. And you really really can't se me and Phil as a team.
If acryon and Phil were your stronger scum reads (apart from me), then who then could I be teamed with, and why did it make sense to vote me?

[Dyslexicon]

What do you all think of Shadow's latest posts?

[Dyslexicon]

I feel like I'm answering the same questions again.

(1)

- First off, seeing something as unlikely (or not really seeing it, however it was phrased), does not mean it's impossible. Now, let's look at my thought process again: I only had a total of three scum reads. Dys, acryon, and Phil. Since we know there are two scum, this gives me three total scum teams to work with:
{Dys, Acryon}, {Dys, Phil}, {Acryon, Phil}. Of those three choices, the one I thought least likely, and almost impossible, was you and Phil. I don't really see a connection between you and anybody else, which is why when acryon flipped town I was willing to move you out of a scum read.

You've now said you couldn't see me on a team with Acryon, Phil or anyone else.

(2)

- I'm not sure I exactly understand what you're asking here. I explained in my reads list is 586 and in my response to you in 883 why I was voting for you. If you're asking specifically about 712, that doesn't make sense since I said I was going to move my vote, which I did in 713. I also already admitted I should have been looking closer at the possible acryon/Phil scum team but I didn't, though that point is completely moot now.

I asked why it made sense to vote me, and yes I ask about 712 in which you clearly state that you liked your vote on me but were willing to compromise on acryon or Phil to ensure a lynch. I ask because it doesn't make sense if you were thinking in the terms you are saying here, namely me not being on a team with anyone, but still liking to vote me the most. It reads saying things to say things, trying to cover up a mindset that doesn't make coherent sense as a town mindframe.

The fact that you clearly state that you did not see acryon/Dys team, and then state "now that acryon has flipped town" and change your read on me doesn't make sense as acryon's flip in itself shouldn't affect your read on me if you didn't see a link in the first place.

Everybody

- What are your thoughts on the Blair replace? Whoever takes over that slot is going to have to try and figure out her mentality with regards to the whole Thor debate, which was a large part of her content.

No other thoughts than it kind of sucks and I hope we get a replacement soon that is able to catch up properly. And your's?

@Dys: What do you see in those responses that you don't like? Specifically, what's the scum-motive for his responses? I agree the logic is not good, and the explaination isn't that clear, but I get the impression there is something else bugging you about them. Care to share?

The scum motive is generating bullshit to cover up a thought process that doesn't make sense. I find it hard to believe his switches from "looking through ISO's I could see acryon/dys" to "really can't see acryon/dys" in the first place. The elaborate post by post thought process thing just looks way too fabricated and unnatural. The whole thing seems like BS to me because if he has had us as consistent scum reads then the "break up" in our possible teaming just doesn't make sense. Why then would this not change his reads? I think he's needing to rationalize his statements that are plain contradicting and it reads like scrambling and just making up justification, but it still doesn't make sense as a coherent thought process to me. If I was his prefered scum read, but not likely teamed with acryon, Phil or anyone else, how does this even make sense? He's the one saying he's been thinking in teams like this in the first place.

I didn't like his way of voting acryon while stating not seeing us as teamed in the first place. Since acryon was town, reads like jumping on a mislynch while still making it so that he could go back to "suspecting" me just the same afterwards. However, now that I've pointed out his statements doesn't make sense he's trying to scamble and realize I'd logically not be his biggest scum read.

What he's said is this: He was ok

compromising

his vote to either of acryon and Phil by 712. I was unlikely teamed with either (or anyone else). Acryon was scummier than Phil so he voted Acryon. Acryon flipped town and (and so!) he now reads me null/town since Phil is still scummy. If Phil is scummy (and scummier than me now), and acryon was even scummier than Phil, why then did he feel he needed to compromise on his vote? What happened after 712 that made him switch his read on me? (I don't have that many posts before he switches his reads, and a lot of them are questioning him about this).

It doesn't make sense to me at all. Am I crazy to think this? O.o Thoughts?

Okay, so I just want to chime in and say that those are almost exactly my thoughts on Blair too. You're right, we do agree on some things. Though I will still cite my post on Dys's reaction to your substitution regarding attitudes towards replacements, all the same.

What reaction?

[Dyslexicon]

"has done some scummy things, but has seemed townie at times too, and it's hard to tell how much on either side is due to Blair not paying as much attention as she should have been." I can see the point of view of scum-Blair or town-Blair

Okay, so I just want to chime in and say that those are almost exactly my thoughts on Blair too. You're right, we do agree on some things. Though I will still cite my post on Dys's reaction to your substitution regarding attitudes towards replacements, all the same.

Also, can you please answer at least some questions that are directed at you? Or say that you're not going to if you're not?

@Phil, What do you think of Thor's consistent town read of you?

[Dyslexicon]

Your reaction in #478 that I was SEVERELY displeased with. (I'll summarize it as "My read on YYR doesn't matter cause Fink is in that slot now", though I admit that is an oversimplification. I still take issue with it.)

It didn't matter so much that I needed to spend any more room on it in already large posts because he was very null and had'n't contributed a lot. I already explained this, did you see that?

[Dyslexicon]

@Phil, also while you're here, thoughts on Shadow and his recent posts?

[Dyslexicon]

Action!

VOTE: Phil

[Dyslexicon]

Hi people. Sorry for the inactivety. Not_Mafia has informed me that I won't be replaced if I post in thread.
I kind of forgot about the game because it was so slow and RL stuff was needing my attention. Sorry about that.
I don't want there to be any more replacements that has to read 40 pages though when I already know what's been going on.
Give me some time today and I will catch up on the last pages.

[Dyslexicon]

Hi again.

First of all, the thing I like about Droog's case on Fink is his main point that he is "playing for the audience" so to speak. The specifics of the case doesn't convince me.

Droog, I also object to you saying I worked myself up to back Acryons lynch and empazising how scummy he looked. Do your job and check facts. I couldn't quite convince myself that Acryon was scum by the end of it. This is not the first time I've gotten the impression you're not reading things.

Bob looks a lot scummier than Blair to me, especially in the conversation with Thor. It read nervous and I don't even know what.

Still don't like Phil, but he is being more active which is good. I also noticed a sudden emotional change in one post, wonder what that's about. Eh.

Yeah. That's what I have. I'd entertain a Bob lynch now.

---

Welcom, Bert.

[Dyslexicon]

Dys, if you're talking about #978, I wasn't having a great day and had kinda got to the end of my wits with everything and ended up sort of venting. My apologies for that, I'll try not to let it happen again.

I'm sorry you didn't have a great day. Not all days are great. Eh.
Incidentally, I think that post was one of the posts that actually made me think you could be town, as it was the first that showed some kind of "care" for the game (sorry if this offends you, but it ties in with you avoiding a bunch of questions and saying you were going to do things and not doing them pretty much all game).

@Everyone Else: I can't tell if
a) Everyone is sick of hearing me talk about Phil and isn't interested in anything I'm saying.
b) No one is clear on why I find Phil scummy because that's been lost along the way somewhere.
c) People get what I'm saying but have no interest in voting Phil today.
d) Other.

a) I'm eager to hear more FROM Phil, I'd say.
b) I'm very clear about that.
c) I don't even know anymore.
d) Yes.

the thing I like about Droog's case on Fink is his main point that he is "playing for the audience" so to speak.

@Dys: I've been struggling to get an explaination of this out of Droog: could you explain where and how I'm "playing for the audience"

specifically

. I think I've been more-or-less thinking out loud in my posts all game. Is there something different about the posts I made about Acryon? Is it just because Acryon turned out to be a mislynch? Or is it that people are now forgetting my posts on Blair, Phil, Thor, Shaddowez, or my initial catch-up posts?

How was my discussion of Acryon different from the thinking out loud I've been doing all game?

Well, I don't necessarily agree that this is what you are doing and that it is scummy. I'm appreciating the point because it makes sense to me to think that. I've had a strong town read on you since you became active, and a lot of your "thinking aloud" has been my exact thoughts to the point of scary, and I'm going to be very surprised and impressed if you flip scum. I'll say two things though that has been on my mind. One is if it is somewhat true that are thought processes can sound alike to me it worries me that I could see your style being similar to a really invested scum!Dys. The second is during the conversation with Acryon, I personally landed on the feel of Acryon being more town than scum and it somehow didn't sit right with me that you agrued him as scum. This is all very self-sentered though, and I don't know how valid it is. I still think you're town for echoing my thought process and your investment, also the display of emotions I've seen reads town to me. Conclusion, still town.

i do read everything
i dont remember it

if someones opinion was so lacking that i dont remember it
thats just as useful as taking the time to triple check

speaking of opinions:

scum > fink > bob > [everyone else] > thor > phil

I was pointing out that you were misrepresenting me.
Thanks for the reads. Don't think I agree :3

---

My current thought/reads are kind of different. Bob is not explaining himself well and it seems he's using a lot of "why would scum be this ill-explained"-reasoning. It's giving me pause in reading him as scum. It seems too fearless for scum.

Thor is using the argument that Bob is going after people that suspect him. But Thor, you have been doign EXACTLY THAT all game. You went hard after me when I suspected you, you went after Acryon who obviously suspected you, and now Bob who suspects you. Your track reckord is this: Cheatory - town, me - town, Acryon - town.

Basically, I'm back to not trusting Thor at all.

If I'm to entertain Phil as town (which I am, lol, who'd though), I get town being: Fink, Droog and Phil.

Scum to me is among Thor, Bob, Bert and Shadow.

VOTE: Thor

What do we all think about lynching Thor?

---

(Also, I've been much more busy lately, and I apologize for being very absent. I'm trying my best to keep up.)

[Dyslexicon]

I support a lynch between Thor and Bob now.

[Dyslexicon]

Lalala. So, are we lynching Bob?

[Dyslexicon]

we have more mislynches than other towns would dream of
and we're still pushing deadlines

@dys; are yo uwilling to consider the bob wagon?

Yeah, no.

The most compelling arguments to me is still Blair's weird non-paranoia that I would flip scum, also his question what do you think of bob/dys team, wtf?

Problem is I read all his energy towards Thor mostly in two ways: Town, or scum hardcore distance. I think it's unlikely that it's scum flailing, cause that's what it looks like. It could be though, I don't know Bob very well (could see him teamed with Phil maybe, but if he's scum not teamed with Thor or Phil I don't understand the blantant tunneling on Thor, unless it's laziness. Well actually it could be just that).

I'm willing to go with it, there's a decent chance I guess, and the mutual tunneling is boring. We also need a lynch.

VOTE: Bob

That's L-1 guys.

[Dyslexicon]

VOTE: Thor

Yeah. I'm not about to move my vote.

Bai. Later.