NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[Scripten]

/confirm

[Scripten]

I have had a lot of beer tonight.

VOTE: ote Thor

He's a thor.

[Scripten]

I now support Csaro's lynch also.

Scripten's drunk post is also a policy lynch.

People should vote one or the other, my RVS stage is over.

Policy lynchers should be policy lynched.

Thor vote is serious.

[Scripten]

Also here. Really busy and currently in the max number of games I want to take on at a time.

Nobody is really pinging hard either way.

TSO vs. Csareo is a lot of reading and not a whole lot of enlightenment.Trying to figure out who's pushing it.

[Scripten]

Have a few minor reads.

TSO seems mildly town. Toby and Tiershift feel town. (Tier feels quite town, in fact.)

Nero Cain looks a little suspicious. Cho feels like scum to me.

UNVOTE: Thor665
VOTE: Cho

[Scripten]

Because the day is still young. In spirit.

[Scripten]

Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten

This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.

It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?

Also, Cho was tied with TSO at

three

votes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.

[Scripten]

The pigeon thing is getting really old, really fast.

I dunno, it makes me chuckle a little.

Also, PeregrineV is mighty scummy, but he feels like almost too easy a lynch. Does the normal setup allow for vengeful scum?

[Scripten]

@Izariael, 439 – since when have "feel" and "seem" been buzzwords?

Since about the time when "scum" and "active lurking" became buzzwords.

Everything is buzzword!

Best buzzword? Chainsaw.

[Scripten]

Policy lynchers should be policy lynched.

Thor vote is serious.

Why do you support Csareo's lynch? It's not a policy lynch, because you just said you are against that. What makes him scummy?

What? I never said I did?

I think you might need to reread that exchange.

Egg:

What do you like about Izar's vote on me? Just curious.

[Scripten]

@Everyone - Pere claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now.

Heh. I like this. Not yet ready to sheep Thor, but this is a good post.

Don't push me to claim, please.

What is this in reference to? I've got to admit that this game moves way too fast for random statements with no direct context to stick in my mind.

[Scripten]

Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten

This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.

It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?

Also, Cho was tied with TSO at

three

votes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.

@Scripten

Please explain how you think that would get "town cred" and is not actual scum hunting.
(I fail to see your point of view) (I fail to see how you can hold your point of view.) (It feels made up.) Show me your perspective.

My explanation is literally right there in the quote. Everything about Izar's vote was based on pedantic "You use words that I'm going to construe as scummy because I said they are" logic and hyperbole. The top two wagons were on my top scumread and a town read. I don't (didn't) have a strong enough read on any other player to warrant starting another wagon.

17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.

Uh huh... Because nobody makes votes just to gain good favor with the rest of the town, right? Izar hadn't finished reading the thread, and when you sheeped them, they even seemed surprised/possibly nervous. That said, you are looking WAY scummier than they are right now.

So ready to vote PereV. (Btw uhm... muffin, your nickname for him MIGHT not be apropro. ) His (intentional(?)) misinterpretations and the fact that he's ready to vote Thor for discussing multiball are huge red flags. Does nobody else follow why the latter is so scummy?

[Scripten]

1)

My vote wasn't based at all on your WORDING of your reads.

Both you and Thor seem to think that I gave a shit about how you worded it. I didn't. What irked me about your reads is that they were the most bare bones reads ever. There was NOTHING of interest there that offered a glimpse of what is making your gears turn. Anyone can say "oh, they feel like scum. I think they're town. They seem town." I don't care about that. I want to know WHY you think that. What about their behavior has driven you to those conclusions? I've already clarified this and offered you an opportunity to explain your reads, and you still haven't done so, which I continue to find scummy. 445, 458

Would you care to elaborate now? Your answers won't be alignment-indicative, but they will at least establish a ground zero for your reads. Then I can catch you lying later like the scum you are. Thanks.

My vote on Cho was due to the fact that she had very little actual content and she looked the scummiest of all the players I'd seen up until that point. Her 320 should have been more than enough for an early vote. That said, (592) has me doubting if I should keep my vote there. I don't wholly agree with it, but it felt slightly townish. In fact, I have a much better vote to hop onto. I bet you'll confbias the hell out of that one, too.

PeregrineV's sheep on my vote was unexpected and unusual, but it's kind of the only red flag I've seen from him. PeregrineV's play here seems consistent with what I've seen from Town!Peregrine, so I don't really have a scum read on his slot at this time. I think Peregrine has a tendency to appear pretty scummy as town, so my past experience with him has me trying to look past my initial misgivings of his play and look for alternative motivations that could come from town. I'm still undecided on how I feel about him, but it's definitely not a "he must be scum" feeling.

"He always looks scummy to me, so I'm forgiving scummy behavior." Is this not what you are saying here?

And this is a terrible post. If I say "@Everyone - Scripten claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now." will you think this is a good post too?

If you actually had anything and I didn't have a sexy green role PM, maybe.

It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.

Considering 4 is the meta for almost garunteed, I would say 5 people in a hood contains a scum, and maybe even multi factions.

Here's another mention of multiball that didn't bother Pere.

Could be Goofy is scum.

Scumreads for everyone!

Yeah, you started with 397 and have been digging your hole deeper ever since. :shrug:

Spoiler: Heh

UNVOTE: Cho
VOTE: PeregrineV

[Scripten]

Well you may think its right there in the quote, but it still does not parse to me.
I accept that, "The top two wagons were on my top scumread and a town read. I don't (didn't) have a strong enough read on any other player to warrant starting another wagon.", is a reasonable position to have held.

Then read my (606). You could also have tried looking at Cho's play up to that point.

You still have not explained how you see someone who you claim did this
Scripten said: "Everything about Izar's vote was based on pedantic "You use words that I'm going to construe as scummy because I said they are" logic and hyperbole."

is going to them trying to do
"Uh huh... Because nobody makes votes just to gain good favor with the rest of the town, right?"

(439). Overemphasis on my word choice (pedantry), the laughable position of a "solid null read" as contrast to my vote, (fishing for favor) and mentioning how my vote was on "the top wagon" (hyperbole) just to make sure their case looks stronger. Need I say more?

Just because a case is wordy doesn't mean it is right.

[Scripten]

It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.

What has Thor been saying? In your own words.

Nah. I think you can figure it out. Actually, on that note, what part of finding it likely that this game is multiball is alignment-indicative? Do you think that scum have a better idea about the setup than town do?

P-Edit: Gorramit. Ninja'd by Thor.

[Scripten]

It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.

What has Thor been saying? In your own words.

I'd also like this clarified, since it seemed directed at me but I don't actually understand what Thor comment it's referring to. Thor's address of Peregrine and I are two separate topics, so clumping them in together to say "[we're both] missing what Thor has been saying" seems like an attempt to buddy up with Thor.

Ah right. I'd forgotten about that.

My point was that the discussion was centering on an argument over whether or not this game was multiball on one side, while the other side was examining the motivations behind the discussion. PeregrineV was accusing Thor of being scum for bringing up multiball, but Thor was not claiming that PeregrineV was scummy because he disagreed. There was this cognitive dissonance between what Thor was saying and what everyone else involved seemed to be hearing. He's since explained this better than I can. (After all, I'm not in his head.)

Aneninen:

I did understand. My vote is on PeregrineV right now, if you have not noticed. What was weak about my explanation?

[Scripten]

I'm still not quite sure why your statement in 606 was directed at me then... I don't recall being involved in their multiball discussion, but have been observing that discussion from the sidelines. How did I fit in with all of this?

Misunderstanding why I liked that post of Thor's is directly related to misunderstanding the nature of that post. That is, you looked at it only in the most superficial fashion. He was (as I interpreted it) indicating that PeregrineV's motivations were in question more than his stance on whether or not the game is multiball.

Given that this is completely non-confirmable outside of your dying role-flip, how do you expect anyone

[else]

to hold this as a townread for you?

I don't. You specifically asked me a question and I replied from my specific PoV. Do you see where the context of Thor's case on PeregrineV differs from yours?

---

My neighborhood is davesaz, Nero Cain, and TSO. I believe this may have already come out, but I'd like it in my ISO for people to see.

[Scripten]

My neighborhood is davesaz, Nero Cain, and TSO. I believe this may have already come out, but I'd like it in my ISO for people to see.

Given that it is no longer alignment-indicative to be revealing ho is in your neighborhood, why is it important to you that this is in your ISO?

Because an easily-compiled list of neighborhood composition is pro-town.

[Scripten]

But the time for being up-front and pro-active about neighborhood composition is long past. Throwing it out there now is a formality more than anything, since everyone is aware that multiple neighborhoods are in play. It might be pro-town, but I would expect scum to follow suit as well because it would be blatantly scummy not to.

Yeah. It's a null tell that is, IMO, pro-town. Knowing who can talk to one another overnight is useful information. I'm not actually sure what part of this you are questioning?

Meh.
I just got the feeling he expected people to praise the revealing of it or something.

Nope. Honestly, I don't really know very well how neighborhoods will factor into the game, but it seems pretty likely that having information about the neighborhoods will help nail scum.

[Scripten]

Scripten, what do you think of me thinking you are the scum from my hood?

Kinda hard to form any real opinion on it. I don't know where your reads are, am either null- or town-reading other players in the hood, and I am speaking from a different PoV than you are. (You already know your own role. I already know mine.) There's too many variables for me to make a judgement call on that statement other than saying it's wrong.

[Scripten]

Eh, the whole reason I think scum are going to be in the hoods is 'cause mods putting a scum spy in the hoods is p common these days. Nothing Dave has said seems all that scummy too me (but that could be that I haven't read everything yet) and the only really niggle that I get from TSO is like, he'll lash out at anything he thinks is criticism so him being "oh yeah I'm grumpy" and just kinda laughing it off seemed a bit uncharacteristic? Do yo have a read on TSO and Dave?

I hadn't really thought much of the hoods, to be honest. I still don't know exactly what to think, though I feel like knowing who is in what neighborhood will be useful later on.

Right now I've got a slight townread on TSO, a null read on Davesaz, and a null read on you. If I had to choose scum out of those three, I'd probably vote you. (My read hasn't changed markedly from my (362), at least among my hood.)

[Scripten]

Mostly gut, based on your interactions with Toby and Csareo initially. I disagree with your (243) and (245), but they moved you out of an early scum read. (The alt-hater thing is not really alignment indicative, but I do have a thing against policy lynches.)

Since my initial read on you, you've slightly moved from minor scum to null-leaning-scum for a few things to do with TSO.

[Scripten]

you thought my alt thing was serious?!?

+

Not the jokes you made, obviously, but the sentiment could easily have been genuine. I've seen much less pushed much harder.

[Scripten]

My neighborhood is davesaz, Nero Cain, and TSO. I believe this may have already come out,

but I'd like it in my ISO for people to see.

I fail to understand why you chose to include the bolded statement. It sounds like you want to intentionally include something that *could* be seen as pro-town just for the sake of appearances. I don't see why a town player would be so concerned about making sure

this detail

is on their ISO. As long as they can confirm that no information about the hood is being lied about, then what is it to a town player whether they or another player opened up about it?

Confirmation bias much? I said right in that post that I thought that the information was already out there. I wanted it in my iso so that when another player looks at my iso, the information is right there within my posts. You're tunneling into a molehill and making it out to be a mountain.

(The alt-hater thing is not really alignment indicative, but I do have a thing against policy lynches.)

Seems somewhat contradictory to what you said here

Policy lynchers should be policy lynched.

Thor vote is serious.

In which you are saying you would policy lynch someone on the basis that they support policy lynches. This is like pushing for capital punishment on people who support capital punishment. Does someone else come along and policy lynch you for policy lynching someone who supports policy lynches? Where does this chain end? You're perpetuating the very thing you're trying to stop... and then now say you're against it?

You do realize that my 39 was contradictory within its own context, right?

Because it's a joke. If you read the next two posts after that, you might understand it a little better.

I don't actually see why a town player would specifically go out of their way to tailor their ISO to be "townier" in appearance, regardless of the details in question. It just seems like a counter-productive thing to be doing when you could be instead spending time actually, you know... looking for scum. It's like trying to coif your hair in the middle of a house fire. Like... get your priorities straight here. Survival > Appearances.

Because two sentences outweighs the rest of my posting? Okay.

[Scripten]

Did you wind up reading 822 before posting this? I think if you had waited another few sentences to comment you would see that I've changed my mind on this.

Oh, I realize now that I'd misread your 822. My apologies.

And your post 39 said "Thor vote is serious" so I didn't really read it as a joke. I was aware that it was contradictory in and of itself, but I had taken it as a serious stance. If it was intended as a joke, then great. Haha.

I have a dry sense of humor that doesn't really translate well into text. I should probably stop trying to make jokes.

That said, I do have a personal distaste for policy lynches. Just that post conveying it was supposed to be funnier than I suppose people are taking it.

[Scripten]

That

"I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so."

is indeed a bit WTF. (I mean, it makes no sense.)

I said that in response to Izar's point that me voting for top wagon was somehow scummy. (Did you notice that, with extra votes on her, Cho wrote a post that was town-feeling enough for me to feel comfortable unvoting her?)

More to come regarding current events when I have time.

[Scripten]

Which one of Cho's posts gave you town vibes?
I'm waiting for that "more to come".

(591)

While she is not a town read of mine, that post made her less scummy than other players. So I moved my vote.

I apologize, but just keeping up with this thread is difficult. My workload will be lifted come this thursday. (Got an exam tomorrow, a newspaper to write, and an essay due the day after.) I'm not exactly on V/LA, but my content is, as you have noted, lower than I'd like it to be. Larges are tough to be active in.

[Scripten]

Scripten, why do you think knowing neighborhoods will be more useful later than now?

I can't give you any real specifics. I've never played with neighborhoods before. However, more information for town is usually a good thing. I also can't see the reveal being particularly anti-town, either. Unless scum get their own neighborhood (which seems like it'd be a little game breaking), they'll probably tell their team all about the composition of their individual hoods, anyway. While this may not cover every hood in the game, it would still be more information than town will have.

Current Events

Thor v. Nero Cain looks weird. I'm not sure I'm following what Thor was doing where he told Nero that he was buddying him, and I'm not sure why Nero took what Thor said as reason to vote him. (Yes, I realize that buddying is a scum tactic. I don't think it follows that claiming to be buddying someone is also a scum tactic.)

Axle's posts are really hard to read. Like.... super hard to understand. I don't think this is a scumtell, but it's definitely an annoying trait for any alignment. TSO doesn't read as scum to me, though I don't think his push on Aneninen is strong enough to justify a counter-wagon.

[Scripten]

Well, I don't really see a reason that Thor would not elaborate on why I'm townish. Explain the town motivation there?

I think he was going for a reaction test. Like I said, I'm not wholly following what Thor has been doing.

dislike gamr for similar reason. His "If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum." is p silly.

Scum already know if its mb or not.

How do you know this? (Bolded)

Another empty post by scripten. This happens too often. I've played with town-him before, in which he very clearly stated opinions, took sides and was very proactive.

I can't really deny that I haven't been as proactive as I usually am. The large game isn't giving me the same level of reads that I can normally get, and engaging every single player is a lot more difficult. I do plan on talking directly to more players now that I have more time.

At p20. Two things.

Csareo was

scumhunting

derpily. One of those last two words is alignment relevant.

please enlighten me.

Bolded. Not necessarily in agreement, though.

[Scripten]

"If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum." is p silly. Scum already know if its mb or not.

Potential scumslip

I think nero just slipped he confirmed that scum know it's multiball

Ehhh... I called it out, but I'm not scumreading him too hard for it. Jumping on tiny things like that pushes mislynches. I disagree that it's worth calling it a scumslip.

P-Edit - TBH, even if it didn't have the "or not."

[Scripten]

Eeeehhhhh.... not really. It's a weird statement, but I can just as easily see it coming from town as scum in either form. There's so much needling over tiny things this game that introducing another one isn't exactly good play.

[Scripten]

Whats weird about it? Seems like it would be basic logic.

I guess I just don't see the link between the size of the scumteam and whether or not the game has multiple scumteams. (Or are we including SKs in that definition?) Or are there other aspects I'm missing?

Also, time to engage some new peeps.

Aeronaut:

You said you'd be back from VL/A yesterday. Any news on that front? I would like to see your thoughts on the various back-and-forths that have been coming around.

AxelGreaser:

Do you find TSO backing off on his wagon to be alignment-indicative. If so, which way do you see it moving? Also, hypothetical question. Let's say you had to start a wagon on a player who's not got any votes on them currently. Who would you choose and why?

Boonskiies:

You still feeling that Cho vote? I'd like to see you put your vote to use or at least push the person you're voting for. Frankly, I'd like to see Cho actually play the game, fwiw.

[Scripten]

I guess I just don't see the link between the size of the scumteam and whether or not the game has multiple scumteams. (Or are we including SKs in that definition?) Or are there other aspects I'm missing?

multiball is traditionally 2 mafia teams and that's the context that I've been using it in. Its a 21 player game and there's only going to be like 5 or 6 scum max. If its a 4 or 5 player team then you know there's not going to be another. If its 2 then you know there's going to be another. 3, maybe.

This is very basic game logic and I'm not sure this is a scum whine or a new player just being new and not understanding.

I've played in games that were larger and had a small scumteam with an SK or two to balance things out on other sites. I'm not wholly aware of normal setups here.

[Scripten]

Literally nobody replied to any of the questions I posed earlier. Aeronaut is the only one who hasn't posted since. Reposting them.

Aeronaut: You said you'd be back from VL/A yesterday. Any news on that front? I would like to see your thoughts on the various back-and-forths that have been coming around.

AxelGreaser: Do you find TSO backing off on his wagon to be alignment-indicative. If so, which way do you see it moving? Also, hypothetical question. Let's say you had to start a wagon on a player who's not got any votes on them currently. Who would you choose and why?

Boonskiies: You still feeling that Cho vote? I'd like to see you put your vote to use or at least push the person you're voting for. Frankly, I'd like to see Cho actually play the game, fwiw.

Boonskiies:

You moved your vote to sheep Thor pretty quickly after I asked you about your Cho vote. Did my question drive you to examine your vote?

(3) Tiershift's scumhunting and game-reading seems to be genuine. Eg. 1165/1166, 1175,
Hm. He mentioned Scripten's "current events" part in 1178. It's strange that Scripten had left out plenty of things, eg. the TSO/Aneninen event. I wonder, why.

I mentioned it. I said that it was a bunch of tunneling that didn't give me any sort of alignment-indicative reads, save for the very end when TSO finally backed off on his case on you. I tried to ask AxleGreaser about it since he was also slightly involved in the interaction, but he just dodged the question.

Okay, scripten's ISO is weak as fuck. There's a distinct lack of opinions other than 'Pere is sooo scummy' for reasons unexplained. So scripten, I want those reasons now.

I've played with townscripten; he clearly explained his reads and had an opinion on everything. Not seeing that here.

Except that game was significantly different in context. It was, for one thing, a micro and not a large. Far fewer people to actually engage with. We also

lost

that game, and most likely in no small part due to my play. While meta isn't wholly useless, I don't think a 1-to-1 comparison is going to help much in this game, since I'm still relatively new and I'm constantly reassessing my playstyle.

Also, PereV felt obviously scummy to me. His naked vote and obvious sheeping of Izar (Who's been a fairly minor part of the game since.) were something, but it was really his reaction to Thor's push on him that made me vote him. The multiball discussion, at least from Thor's side, was not actually about multiball. It was calling out PereV on -really- scummy play. The more Thor pushed, the more PereV tried to keep the discussion on MB and setup speculation, just to push his idea that Thor should be auto-lynched if the game turned out to be multiball. I'm just amazed that so few people really caught on to it.

And yes, I realize that I'm mostly sheeping Thor's case. However, with there being so many people in this game, it's a lot tougher to push individual cases. I'm attempting to circumvent that by engaging players who have not really been pushed very much so far. I have a hunch that smarter scum will be lurking pretty hard this early on.

AxelGreaser: Do you find TSO backing off on his wagon to be alignment-indicative. If so, which way do you see it moving?

That is the weirdest shit I have ever seen in a Mafia game. It feels wrong.
(I am probably not going to be able to say why or what.)

I have read it several times since I got back. That is not helping.

I see it moving towards sleep, I need some of that.

@Anyone who happens to know (save me finding it)
What neighbourhood is TSO in?

...Are you serious? I'm asking you to tell me if you found anything alignment-indicative in a current event. That is not a weird question and there is absolutely no excuse not to answer it.

Also, answer the other part of my post. I'm NOT liking your play so far.

[Scripten]

but it was really his reaction to Thor's push on him that made me vote him. The multiball discussion, at least from Thor's side, was not actually about multiball. It was calling out PereV on -really- scummy play. The more Thor pushed, the more PereV tried to keep the discussion on MB and setup speculation, just to push his idea that Thor should be auto-lynched if the game turned out to be multiball. I'm just amazed that so few people really caught on to it.

Okay, so you really voted pere for his reaction to thor's push. What exactly was scummy in his response other than 'lynch thor if MB'?

"Lynch Thor if MB" wasn't really the response. That was just what prompted it.

It was the way in which he responded in general. Notice how Thor and others (including myself) are saying that it doesn't matter if the setup is MB or, his push was wrong due to being based on non-alignment-related opinion. Eventually the conversation drifted into PereV's push and the way he would segue into talking setup whenever the topic drifted from it. Thor's (1364) summarizes the deflective way PereV switched things around.

Hell, even when he made out like he was going to change the subject (627), he just goes right back into speculation. We've got almost 60 pages of empty posts, potential scum that are hiding behind 1v1 arguments/tunneling (Scum love those!) and evasive/dodgy persons. PereV, (not just) in my opinion, has been fostering this atmosphere and reeks of scumminess for it.

[Scripten]

Also now that i am more awake.
No I do not provide neatly packaged simplistic statements about the people I am trying determine the alignment of. (At the moment that is TSO)

and the answer said exactly what was happening. I was tired. I did read it several times.
I did find something quite weird was going on, it was probably weird in the sense of fferlyt trajectory
in that I wonder about changes in direction of events that seemed to have no cause, hence my question about neighbourhoods.

Oh, holy crap, I misread your post really badly. Apologies, I thought you were directly referring to my question when you said "it" was weird and wrong, rather than TSO's post. That was totally my bad there, and I take back what I said about your play. (I don't respond well when I think my questions are being blown off.)

Also, to answer your question, TSO is in a neighborhood with myself, Davesaz, and Nero Cain

[Scripten]

Also, answer the other part of my post. I'm NOT liking your play so far.

Given that I only just stopped voting you the feeling would be mutual.

Scripten: "Also, hypothetical question. Let's say you had to start a wagon on a player who's not got any votes on them currently. Who would you choose and why?"

Well I did just start voting someone, who had no votes it was TSO. So if you are looking for me to provide original certifiably obviously non sheep input into the game that is it.
You could always read the thread carefully and see if I was me tooing in the other discussions or adding original input.

Whats the problem is TSO your buddy?

I have a townread on him, if that counts. I don't agree entirely on all of his wagons, but I think he'd be a mislynch. That's why I asked you to pick out someone scummy from the players who haven't got wagons yet. I wanted to pick your brain on the players that might be skating by.

[Scripten]

Scripten: (I don't respond well when I think my questions are being blown off.)

Really, how unusual of you.

Spoiler: spoiler

BTW thats now possibly for me the funniest 12 words in the thread.) and my words out side the spoiler are sarcasm, because yeah i know the feeling, but it is not only not respond well, but find it to be scum indicative, when people try to get out of being responsive when cornered.

Ta. for the neighbourhood thing, I had at some point searched and found that, and that does not seem like the kind of neighbourhood that could explain what seems to be a change in direction of TSO.
Time will tell.

The problem I'm finding with evasiveness is that how often scum can successfully hide in it, since it's so common for townies to play that way. It -should- be- a scumtell, to the extent that scum shouldn't be able to do it and get away with it, but it's not and that makes me frustrated. When I read your post for the first time, it seemed like you were calling my question "weird" and thus refusing to answer, so I responded aggressively to attempt to get a real answer out of you. Of course, since my reading comprehension failed so hard, I've got egg on my face right now.

That said, why would you expect a hood to change a player's direction, as you say?

[Scripten]

That said, why would you expect a hood to change a player's direction, as you say?

discussing things in hood could from my external view, generate jumps and gaps in the flow/trajectory of a player.
any information exchange channel that i am unaware of might do that.

So might sitting down and thinking, whoops why did I xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <<< bunch of graphic imagery elided as pointless and tasteless.
So if TSO is the kind of player that can sit down and think oops all by himself, then I suppose no need for another channel.

I can help out here. I don't know about the other hoods (though it would make sense for them all to operate the same way), but ours does not have daytalk, so TSO either had another avenue of communication for what you suggest or came to his conclusion independently. I'm pretty sure it's the latter. Do you disagree?

[Scripten]

Also, Scripten, can you link a town and a scum game of yours?

Just go and check my wiki page. It's got a link to a few games of mine, two town and one scum.

[Scripten]

I believe boons soft roleclaim as I don't see why scum would do it. I will agree through his done pretty much nothing all game.

Yes, he may be a town-PR, but he may be a scum too who wants to get a "free card" for a while. I still don't understand why he softclaimed at all. (Especally since it's in contract with his post. I mean with the

lack

of his posts.)

@Scripten. I've checked it. Your gameplay here is very far from the one you were scum in. It's not a very strong alignment tell though. That game was a Newbie and this one is a Large Normal with 21 players and the total amount of finished games is quite low.

I said as much earlier. I don't really have time to go back and ISO myself for the quote, but I believe I was talking to Tiershift.

Meta is useful, but people's playstyles change based on context and, if they are aware of their meta, they can analyze what works and what doesn't to improve their game.

[Scripten]

Scripten talk to me about your read on PV.

What would you like to talk about? I've already given pretty much all the thoughts I can on it. Just ISO me, the posts aren't that far up.

I find your (1361) and (1541) inconsistent. Most I can make of it is that 1541 invalidates 1361. Am I right?

[Scripten]

AxelGreaser: Do you find

TSO backing off on his wagon

to be alignment-indicative

been meaning to get back to this, please show me what you see as

TSO backing off his wagon

.

Not sure i agree he was ever on his own wagon, but I want what you saw as him backing off his wagon.

What? I never said TSO was on his own wagon. I'm not sure why you would think I'd say that? I said he'd backed off of Aneninen's wagon in (1240) and I wanted to know what you thought of that.

Why are you asking me this when it seemed like you understood when you answered in (1376)?

[Scripten]

1250 is a quote, in the text of the question that I colour coded the same i made a typo and left out "on"

Well I kind of did, or rather guessed, when I looked recently I did not find a post that is clear enough about him backing off.
Also as that *only* backs of an interpretation of a set of three posts that should not from TSO claimed his case was have changed his whole read.

As I said I found the thread weird, and not helped by the number of posts replying without quoting or explicitly referring to what has a point where.

...

What?

[Scripten]

The pink words are words you actually said.

When i quoted them I actually quoted them put them in pink, then when referring to the m I copied them but messed up an dleft out the word

on

.
That is I typographical error

I never claimed you said things you didnt. I quoted you.

please stop jumping at shadows.

Yes. He backed off on the wagon he was pushing against Aneninen. I asked you to tell me what you thought of it. I'm still not seeing the disconnect here.

[Scripten]

I don't think Thor's the type to back off when he thinks he has scum in his sights. This means I think the counterwagon on him is bad. If PV's town, high likelihood Flubber is scum trying to get townie points for opposing a mislynch, and use it to subsequently persecute people on the wagon. That seems to me a fairly common scum replacement strat. Not sure I see that from a PV buddy though - for the same reasons, "Replace in and hardcore chainsaw your buddy's attacker" is a pretty rare and bold scum move.

I don't think Flubbernugget is scum. At least, I'm not getting scum vibes from him. He's working pretty hard on Thor, and not doing a fantastic job of it, true. But his viewpoint feels organic to me, mostly in terms of tone and the way he is pushing and retracting his points. I mean, compare and contrast his play with PereV's, and you can probably see where I'm coming from with my vote.

Aneninen:

I think we have a pretty good wagon on PereV. Not sure how happy I am with either the wagon on you or Axle, but eh.

[Scripten]

TSO:

I take it that you're townreading Boon, righ? Just want to check where you stand right now.

[Scripten]

I'm sort of reading and liking slandaar.

I like that he's started conversations outside the ones that were already there and that his posts seem to be discouraging tunneling. What's your take?

[Scripten]

I feel very discouraged from reading because all the discussion before I left was nonsense and it probably is now. We nded a flip. Pere wouldn't be my first choice, but I can live with it

Agreed. Let's do something new. Who do you think would be the best choice to lynch today?

[Scripten]

Can we go over why Dave is scummy? I've not gotten that vibe at all. Granted, I've never seen him be scum, either.

[Scripten]

PereV:

We have lots of time. I'd like to see you talk about something other than the setup. Can you give thoughts on things other than trying to tunnel me or your 1v1 with Thor? What do you think of Fonz? You had a sort of interaction with him.

How about Axle? Do you think his playstyle is helpful for the town? Do you think his pushes are in the right direction?

[Scripten]

Spoiler: Egg

I've played with townscripten; he clearly explained his reads and had an opinion on everything. Not seeing that here.

VOTE: scripten

Was that a large game?

It was a micro, and Tier was scum.

It was the way in which he responded in general. Notice how Thor and others (including myself) are saying that it doesn't matter if the setup is MB or, his push was wrong due to being based on non-alignment-related opinion.

Wait. Wasn't the argument that Thor was scum for having knowledge of a setup with two scum teams? Now he's scum for the same argument even if there turns out to be only one team? Guy just can't win with you people, can he?

What? I think you misunderstand my post. I said it doesn't matter whether Thor or PereV is right about the setup. What matters is how they each interacted with one another. PereV's reaction to Thor pressing him about his statement that Thor would be scum if the game was MB felt pretty damn scummy, and the game setup has no bearing on it.

I'm trying to get a better read on PereV, but I'm not sure how well that's going to work.

Axle is town. As scum, he'd know there is no daytalk.

Could also have been pretending to not know for town cred. I don't think that question was alignment-indicative.

Spoiler: PereV

I expect town-Fonz to read the game and make an independent decision (see Slandaar). His jump on the largest wagon (even if me) based on post 300 or so was surprising.

Beyond that, look for logic fails for scum-Fonz (Cold War Mafia)

Hm. I was townreading Fonz, but okay. This could be useful after a flip.

I see where Axel is coming from, I had similar issues with TSO for many games (see earlier post).
His playstyle is meticulous, which I find refreshing or skippable, depending on my mood.

As long as he stays true to himself but can adjust his scumhunting if he figures out he is wrong (in general and for this game).

This sounds like a town read. I suppose that makes sense. Do you think his pushes (discounting TSO) are worthwhile?

@Scripten: I asked you to expand on why you think the way in which Flubbernugget retracted his reads, specifically, was townish. Please do so.

Ah crap. I meant to do this ages ago. Apologies. Going to make another post for that. Give me a few minutes.

Davesaz:

I don't think that's a scumslip on Egg's part.

[Scripten]

Spoiler: Flubber's Posts

That reminds me, how come nobody took issue with Thor's reads list that was all town\lurksack?

That reminds me, how come nobody took issue with Thor's reads list that was all town\lurksack?

Issue with it for what reason? Calling too many people town? Too many lurksacks? Or too many of each?

Are all of your scum reads PoE?

It kinda implies you're not scumhunting. I mean, you have that huge back and forth with PV over a superficial case, and thats the only scum read I can remember you having. If you have better scum reads, why are they less prominent than some scum slip discredit?

Pere, who do you want dead today?

At this point, it will probably be me.

My vote on Scripten triggered too much for a simple vote. I'd want to lynch him.

Thor arguing like this I can see from town Thor, but the topic/reason/trigger was also insignificant. I'd lynch him. (But part of me wants to wait until multiball gets confirmed )

Egg for vote-parking. Unless someone can point out town-Egg doing this, classic scumtell.

Lurkers.

I'm ISO'ing your wagon right now and Muffin is probably vote parking worse than Egg yet was never mentioned.

@thor: your case is sound and valid as far as I can tell but it's beating the rotting remains of a dead horse and cousing apathy. If you don't see any other scumtells in him (or opportunities to dig for additional scumtells) what about this particular instance do you think could in be causing something worth going on about for this long?

@axle: okay I misread your post. But I don't understand the hesitation to list other scum reads.

Well, a couple of those are actually quite explicit and not vague at all.
And I don't see the point you're trying to make regardless.

6. If he made a mistake he had plenty of time to at least discuss why he believed in that mistake. Instead he got dodgy - was that also a mistake on his part?

5. Which do you think is the more likely response from a town Pere who thinks he's right? How about from a scum Pere that doesn't?

If he is more focused on winning the argument what makes you think he would admit a mistake?

And either way I see you two arguing about it regardless of alignment, although the argument is more beneficial as scum.

Fonz:

These posts feel organic and natural. He doesn't keep pushing the exact same point over and over, but had some amount of ebb and flow to his discussion with Thor. Feels like a townish Flubbernugget to me.

[Scripten]

These posts feel organic and natural. He doesn't keep pushing the exact same point over and over, but had some amount of ebb and flow to his discussion with Thor. Feels like a townish Flubbernugget to me.

I'm pretty neutral on that He changed his stances because I was battering the arguments. You'll note he walked away from me with no particular commentary about how he felt about it. That doesn't particularly vibe like townish ebb and flow. I'm not saying it's scummish either, but I don't get the town vibe.

I disagree. I don't really want to go ISO him again, but I remember seeing that he was scumhunting other people and generally interacting in a way that suggested that he hadn't just popped up to look like he was scumhunting you and left once he was out-maneuvered. In the last game I played with him, I was scum and drilled him really hard until he flipped town. Flubber being overwhelmed as town is perfectly understandable and this feels like how he would react under pressure in a large. It's not a strong town lean, but it's a bit more than null.

[Scripten]

Oh, and I debated a little on whether I should do this, but I see a lot of discussion on it and it's already out there and I kind of want to squash it.

I DOUBT VERY VERY SERIOUSLY THAT BOON IS A COP. I HAVE A REASON. I WILL NOT ELABORATE. I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANYTHING ANYONE SAYS IN RESPONSE TO THIS.

I'm willing to listen to this. Do you think a Boon fakeclaim is alignment indicative or some sort of townie gambit?

[Scripten]

[Scripten]

Aww... those don't work in there. WELL.



Fine, question extends to the rest of you lot, then. Boon fakeclaim more likely to be town- or scum-motivated?

[Scripten]

I think those were his ketchup posts.

They were a little daunting, but I mustard up the courage to tackle them.

[Scripten]

Do you think it's obvious I'm a cop? I'd like to know how many people think that's obvious.

Somethin' like that.

[Scripten]

So, who is town and who is scum?

I'm town. Thor's probably town. TSO and Davesaz are probably town. AxleGreaser... might be town? It's a tough one.

PeregrineV is most likely scum. Goodmorning is pinging my scum radar a bit. Boonskiies is... well, himself.

Everyone else is hinging on various levels of null for me.

Are you town, beastcharizard?

[Scripten]

You forgot me!
Why davesaz?

Oh, right, I did! Tiershift is maybe town. He's a little quiet, but this feels way different from his scum game. (Granted, that was a micro and this is a large. So eh.)

Everyone else is hinging on various levels of null for me.

Am I?

Yup.

[Scripten]

This sounds like a town read. I suppose that makes sense. Do you think his pushes (discounting TSO) are worthwhile?

Does he have a non-TSO push? He seems to really like TSO for scum.

Sure, he's made pushes elsewhere. I take it from your reaction that you don't see them as being particularly stand-out. I agree.

[Scripten]

Okay, can we stop this in its tracks, please? Because holy shit I do not want to read another fifty pages of this crap. Please.

[Scripten]

Imagine if you actually gave a reason for me being scum?
Or even responded to me proving your Pere accusation against me was terrible?
Wouldn't that be magical?

This.

Muffin:

Or, at least, give a reason why you will not post your case? My light townread on you is slipping, and I don't like that.

[Scripten]

why do I care if people are townreading me? I'm here to find scum not to be read as town.

Up to you to decide that. But it'd be nice if you'd post your reason for pushing a TSO wagon if you want people to vote him.

[Scripten]

Four pages in less than a day, filled mostly with walls. Lovely. And my two biggest scumreads are voting each other. This quote bugs the hell out of me, though, so I think I know which one I think is not aligned with town.

@Axle you should vote me lets make this a 1v1 you and me.

VOTE: Garmr

It's like he sees how much Axle is prone to clogging up the thread with walls and wants to make it that much harder for us to wade through them. (*Cue incoming misrep claim*)

And can someone sum up what the hell is going on with the Boon/Iz/Anen/GM hood? All I'm getting is that Anen had a plan that a few of you sort of want to go through with, Boon is claiming a PR, and is also misrepping people from the hood. I'm getting a preliminary townread on the way Izar is treating the situation, but it may just be because I don't fully understand it.

[Scripten]

I'm quite interested in this post becuase day 1 you weren't scum reading axle.

-snip-

You were town reading axle not to long ago and you haven't even given a read on me and Now ime and axle are your biggest scum read?

That doesn't make much sense.

It wasn't a town read either. I've been trying to figure out if his walls are a scum tactic for generating noise and making the game that much harder to play for the rest of us or just a playstyle thing. An (admittedly short) bit of meta research coupled with you egging him on made me scumread you harder, since it encouraged him to get into a tunnel-y 1v1 against you. So I voted you.

[Scripten]

So you did a short meta on me. Can you point out the games you read and how far you actually read into them?

Not on you, but on Axle. What I saw from other town games of his looked consistent with his game here. Meta isn't perfect, but it was enough to figure out which to vote.

Also you said he might be town how is that not a town read? Sounds like a null-town read to me.

I don't equate a null-town read as a town read. I felt that you two are most likely not aligned with one another and that you were the more likely scum.

[Scripten]

What made you feel the need to meta axle yet not meta me? Also the way you word this is interested you show quite a bit of certainty in this?

You, Axle, and Anen all had that walls of text thing going on all day 1. Anen had a bit of townie genuineness that neither you nor Axle seemed to show. When you pushed Axle to argue with you, I went to see if his town game would line up with the noise he's been putting out in this thread. When it did, I found your post to be calculated.

Also scriptian i was arguing with axle alot day 1 So what about today made you go holy shit now they both look scummy.

Check out the post where I voted you. That you are egging him on for a 1v1 makes all kinds of red flags go off.

[Scripten]

What would my scum motivation for wanting a 1v1 be as it draws attention to me and him. Also how did you find them calculated what stroke you as me calculating?

Actually, 1v1s just clog up the thread and make it really hard for town to legitimately scumhunt because their conversations are derailed onto the 1v1. I usually find tunneling to be done by town, but it's a legitimate scum tactic as well. It's a distraction, and since you seemed to realize this, I find you attempting to create another day of pointless tunneling to be scummy.

[Scripten]

I have 1v1 in my town meta which I think I have brought up before and I usually investigate other things while 1v1ing anyway.

I did not see this. Can you quote yourself or link me to it?

Aslong as you don't do a thor and pere and keep it going the whole day. It should be fine. But why do you think I want to draw away from the current conversation. I feel like I'm starting two ongoing ones at once.

I think you wanted to get into an argument with Axle because everyone else's eyes glaze over when these arguments happen. It causes town apathy like what happened on Day 1 because wading through those posts is just ridiculous.

[Scripten]

So...basically as long as you don't do a 1 v 1?
Because if you initiate and then stop - it's not a 1 v 1. It's a wagon that you are planning not to push.

Wait a second. Since when is initiating a 1v1 the same thing as pushing a wagon? I totally disagree that the two are one and the same, even if they share a few traits.

Are you saying that Garmr is just pushing a wagon when he goads Axle into fifteen straight pages of incoherent back and forthing?

[Scripten]

And my two biggest scumreads are voting each other. This quote bugs the hell out of me, though, so I think I know which one I think is not aligned with town.

Why does the other need to be town?

The way I see it, there's two players in a 1v1. One or both are probably scum. Lynching Garmr and watching him flip scum won't clear Axle, but I am more confident that, if only one of those two is scum, then Garmr is it.

Are you saying that Garmr is just pushing a wagon when he goads Axle into fifteen straight pages of incoherent back and forthing?

I don't see what difference this is other than saying that you don't like how he is pushing a wagon. I see little value in debating word choice over it.[/quote]

I don't think he's really pushing a wagon, tho. He's got a vote out and he's initiating an argument, but 1v1-ing just doesn't seem pro-town.

TSO:

Are you sure you don't want to take a ride on the Garmr wagon instead? Just think, you get to spend all day interacting with him! It'll be a party.

[Scripten]

Oh, almost forgot.

Thor:

Why is Shiro scum? Lurky slot syndrome, just sheepy as hell, Or something else?

[Scripten]

The only way that becomes an issue is if everyone else treats it as a 1 v 1. Otherwise it is simply two players cross voting - aka, two wagons.

Intent is important. Doesn't the intent to spawn a 1v1 make you cringe?

[Scripten]

As I indicated already - a 1v1 is a cross vote.
It is nothing more and nothing less than that. It is not actually a problem, and the only way it becomes a "problem" is if people want to discuss something else, and instead sit around and whine that they can't.

It's a problem if posts get lost in the noise and conversation is stopped because of it.

[Scripten]

There's a brian in this game?

He means Dave.

I don't know why.

Don't ask.

[Scripten]

Alright then, let's vote Thor.
VOTE: Thor
Thor is the

slot where I'm most curious about

right now. Egg/Pere were town, and Egg was killed for a reason. A Thor lynch will tell us why.

vs

Thor's town

. And it's multiball...

A towny player cant just be making unequivocal statements, and then later going "I am most curious about", lets lynch thor for information that then wont mean anything as the whole neighbour hood will be dead.

This... is actually a fairly good point. Boonskiies, can you walk us through your thoughts or can someone tell me how this is not opportunistic as hell?

[Scripten]

VOTE: thor

VOTE: thor

I really don't like to admit this, but the Thor case is starting to feel alright. (2959) bugs me a lot. (3099) is a solid post. I'd rather not be on a lynch with Garmr, but one scumteam having two kills seems unlikely to me so it's possible that he and Thor are not aligned.

[Scripten]

What are your reads on Fubber and Muffin.

I'm not sure on Flubber. Leaning slightly scummy. Muffin is town.

[Scripten]

I'd rather not be on a lynch with Garmr, but one scumteam having two kills seems unlikely to me so it's possible that he and Thor are not aligned.

Wow, my reading comprehension fails tonight. I thought Garmr was on the Thor wagon. I'd love to build his wagon up, but the wagon on Thor is more solid than my case...

[Scripten]

(2963) (2998) (3071) all ping for me, specifically, and his general "I don't want to step on toes" fake-ish scumhunting has me a little put off. I don't have a strong read on him because I've only played one game with him on this site. (We've played off-site before, but the meta there was a lot different.) More than that, I was scum with him last game we had together and tunneled him to death, so approaching him from a different mindset is difficult.

[Scripten]

Vote: Izarael

Izar is scummy because Muffin fell for his scum plot to have a vanilla townie push his case or something?

[Scripten]

I love it when my scumreads pretty much out themselves. Garmr's replace out is not alignment-indicative, but that opportunistic vote on Thor is just icing on the scum-cake.

That said, I'm a little bothered by Garmr's jump onto Thor's wagon. It -definitely- does not read as a bus attempt, so Thor is either town or, at least, scum/3rd-party not aligned with scum-Garmr. (Sorry, bringing up multiball again... ) It makes me feel like the Thor wagon should migrate over to Garmr for today.

Saying he is caught scum is quite an overstatement, anyway.

Let's just go for thor.

Which makes me worry about this quote.

Tiershift, why so singleminded for the Thor wagon? I mean, I was starting to like it, but Garmr's recent actions must have been enough to get you onto his wagon. Do you really find his replacing out to be -that- alignment-indicative. I'm all for waiting for his replacement to see if miracles occur, but this makes that Thor wagon look mighty wrong to me.

[Scripten]

Note - Shiro already did move.

Why are you trying to spread misinformation, Thor? I really want to believe you're town, but you keep doing this. Why?

What is your real reason for misrepping Shiro?

[Scripten]

...because I was scum and figured no one would look and that Shiro would forget that he hadn't voted me and everyone would accept what i said as absolute fact.

What is your real reason for asking a question like this?

You've done it twice now, and only, as far as I've noticed, when concerning Shiro. It's not entirely unthinkable that a player reading through the game might see you mention something false and internalize it.

[Scripten]

It is based on his chronic obsession with invalidating others' interpretations of his statements rather than clarifying.

-snip-

It is based on his behavior of consistently devaluing the scumreads of others on him by saying they are "terrible town" or "a useless slot" instead of countering the argument systematically.

-snip-

It is based on his inability to hold himself accountable for his own actions or the impact they've had on the gamestate, and his distinct preference to point fingers everywhere else.

I hear you talking - the most I get is "I am voting Thor because he bugs me"
I am pretty sure that's not a scum case.

I'm gonna pull a Thor here.

[Scripten]

It is based on his constant stalling and limiting of the exchange of information.

It is based on his voting habits, which appear to be sheer OMGUS on PeregrineV, Muffin and myself. Woe be unto those who question the mighty Thor and his infallible gameplay...

It is based on my belief that he is not genuinely scumhunting, as nearly all of his scumreads have come from reactivity rather than proactivity.

Actually, I'd respond to those points which hold a decent amount of water like the ones I've highlighted above. I wouldn't want to give other town players reason to doubt my motivations and mislynch me, since that would be pro-scum. I wouldn't summarily dismiss the entire case because I feel myself above it, since that would probably distract from finding actual scum.

[Scripten]

Thor what are you trying to showcase on your wagon?

You found a bunch of names highlighted in green, including Muffin, while others are in black, including the person I'm voting, to be confusing as to my point?
I must be making another quantity vs. quality commentary - I'm so hard to understand and I never realized it.

THE NUMBERS THOR. WHAT DO THEY MEAN.

What numbers?

It's a thing from COD.

[Scripten]

Thor:

Well it helped me settle my read on you, so there's that. I get that you're a pretty good player, but sometimes walking through points can be useful to those of us who aren't you. I don't think anyone in the game has memorized the play/actions of every other player. For instance, I thought that Izar's point on you stalling was not only limited to your 1v1 with Muffin.

How come you seem to have a town read on Garmr's slot, Thor? You didn't find his play today to be suspect?

Flubber:

"To win the game, you must join the Garmr wagon."

I would like to push my Garmr wagon harder, but I'm not comfortable doing that while I wait for his replacement.

[Scripten]

Thor:

I wasn't clear before. I'm not reading you as scum. I don't agree with your reads on Shiro or Garmr, but whatevs. I pushed you because I was starting to doubt my townread and your play wasn't helping me. You answering those questions reinforced my read and made me more happy with it. I am almost certainly not the only one. It's not like you're unaware that you have a wagon on you.

[Scripten]

Tiershift, why so singleminded for the Thor wagon? I mean, I was starting to like it, but Garmr's recent actions must have been enough to get you onto his wagon. Do you really find his replacing out to be -that- alignment-indicative. I'm all for waiting for his replacement to see if miracles occur, but this makes that Thor wagon look mighty wrong to me.

What do

you

think of his replace-out? I think it's telling enough to push him to somewhat above null.

I'm entirely null on it. I don't think it's alignment indicative, but I do think his other play has been scummy.

What do you think of the garmr wagon? You've been on there for quite a time, without doing shit. Why aren't you doing more to get your scumread lynched?

I recently mentioned this in a post to Thor, but I've backed off the wagon until he gets a replacement in. I kind of missed the shitshow that apparently convinced him to replace out, so I wasn't able to say anything until after he was replacing out.

Also, why does my singlemindedness mean the thor wagon is mighty wrong?

Not your singlemindedness, but the interaction between the Thor wagon and the Garmr wagon.

[Scripten]

Tiershift:

I love it when my scumreads pretty much out themselves. Garmr's replace out is not alignment-indicative, but that opportunistic vote on Thor is just icing on the scum-cake.

That said, I'm a little bothered by Garmr's jump onto Thor's wagon. It -definitely- does not read as a bus attempt, so Thor is either town or, at least, scum/3rd-party not aligned with scum-Garmr. (Sorry, bringing up multiball again... ) It makes me feel like the Thor wagon should migrate over to Garmr for today.

[Scripten]

Scripten, who is scum if not garmr?

I'm not really looking to make a compromise, but if Garmr is town, then I would probably most support a GM or, less so, a Flubbernugget wagon. Starting to wonder about the quiet slots, too, but then, lurkers are always suspicious.

Missing a third alternative where Garmr is town and Thor is scum. Never mind that option 2 is also a viable vote for Thor.

Sure, that's possible, but I don't think it's likely. Not really ready to vote even minor town reads in lieu of a stronger scumread.

[Scripten]

Well, I'll just call it like I see it: Garmr wagon seems like a deliberately-placed counter-wagon made by scum to avoid Thor lynch.

Explain this, please. What scum do you see on Garmr's wagon, then? What I saw was Boonskiies wagon dissolving and the Garmr wagon coming out of Garmr, y'know, being scummy.

[Scripten]

@Scripten: What is your read on Thor and why?

Thor is weird and I sometimes don't like his play but I think he's town. I can't really come up with a solid case on him being scum, and I can see town motivation in some of his actions, or at least a tone that suggests town, but he has a habit of being super opaque and stubborn that bugs me.

[Scripten]

Welcome to the game Josh!

Sorry you had to replace into a scum slot. Who're your scumbuddies?

[Scripten]

Slandar replaces my dave scumread.

The post you quoted was from The Fonz and not Slandaar, btw.

And there might have been a scumread or two on Egg, but I don't remember any offhand.

[Scripten]

First of all, sorry about the wall. A lot of my case revolves around the trajectory of Garmr's posts, and without examples, I won't have any context to go on.

Spoiler: Why Garmr is hypocritical, opportunistic scum

I'm going to be honest I'm lost now and don't know what to think.


UNVOTE: toby

Shittyvote is shitty

Will agree with you as tobys now in my null-town list. I took a step back and looked at her whole posts as a whole. I think I was just paranoid.

Garmr

– Hard question. He's been after the wrong players all the time (not only because of his vote for me, I mean Toby and Boonskiies too) and I don't know whether it comes from a town or a scum mindset. Unsorted.

Everyone can be sorted into three mind sets town,third party and scum. I operate from a scum mindset (In any game) and that changes the way I hunt for scum. Basically my filters different but it has worked in past games. Because of that I enjoy scum games more and if you look into my past scum games you can see the effort and time I put into each masterpiece. I'm currently trying to improve my town game since I feel like I mastered scum and tbh to me it looks like you have town mindset playing a scum game. People with town mindsets tend to have difficulty hiding flaws as scum.



anyway

some reads I haven't really talked about.

Scripten

- I don't know what think of this guy his post are dull and i'm curious about his defenation of town cred is and why anyone who is voting him would get it. and tbh his vote on pere looks like a little bit of a off.

null-scum

EGG- Egg is a weird read I like some of his posts(452 for example) even through I don't agree with his conclusions (his veiw on pere). But him being wrong doesn't make him scum -I feel comfortable placing him as town.

davesaz- tbh he has a lot of wording in his post and I don't like some of conclusions. In my eyes he hasn't really impacted the game so null.

"If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum." is p silly. Scum already know if its mb or not.

Potential scumslip

I think nero just slipped he confirmed that scum know it's multiball

Ehhh... I called it out, but I'm not scumreading him too hard for it. Jumping on tiny things like that pushes mislynches. I disagree that it's worth calling it a scumslip.

P-Edit - TBH, even if it didn't have the "or not."

So you do find it scummy through? Since you don't think it's a slip what reason do you find it scummy for?

But I'll take your word on it since fferys like a mentor to me.

Err this makes no sense. I suggest you go back and think that thought again.

I talk about 1403 fferlyt trajectory in terms of failing to follow the recent thread, as a natural flow, (also as it wont have been clear so far) while TSO is in the center of that feel.
That has no (known) connection to multiball.

Once you brought up multiball, in 1410
I did also talk about multiball and say
"Yeah if its multiball, rather lot of common tells go away. Scum can still however be faking it, as survival is stronger instinct in scum as there are fewer of them scum hunting has risks, if you personally start pinging on guys in the other scum team they may NK you as a seemingly dangerous townie. So scum in multiball (I hypothsise) still will play different, but it will be harder to find them but there will be more of them?
Also at least one multiball scum player wants to be the one scum under the radar player the other team cant find."

That bit has no "fferlyt trajectory" in it

and finally even if it did appeal to your authority is bad logic.

This is getting weird again. What kind of weird, I don't know.
As I am not pushing this exchange in any useful direction (I think I am being responsive) I suggest we stop unless you are getting something out of it.

Your right it won't further the game state But I am interested in interacting with you, I find it easier to understand someone if I'm interacting with them but I guess that was a awkward attempt to start an interaction because to be honest I don't know what subject to start with and I been trying to think of something for a while. So I'm going to reach out to you for this.

@Pere and thor

I think I'm falling asleep with this thor vs Pere thing can't you two resolve this.
You could put up a final case on each other then wait for like 3-6 days while focusing on other things then come back after providing reads and pushing other people. Whats the point of clogging up day 1 with just a case on one person. Your just filling walls upon walls and you stop addressing your views on other people with this tunneling.

Why does this make an axlegreaser vote more palatable to you than an aneninen vote? It seems to me this ought to reinforce your scum read on aneninen the scum bro, should it not?

A axle lynch is more telling at this point. His the one that doesn't want to mention what he think of annienen his the one avoiding the subject. Look at the recent stuff his been posting that's not town.

so far he is getting away with it, and youre town reading him for it? (as its got no percentage except you town reading him for it?)

You agree that boonskies is being boonskies right?

@axle oh well the misunderstanding caused me to meta tso which is a positive thing.

If TSO is “so easily bullied into things.”

Unlike tso I'm not so easily bullied into things.

What did this post mean and why?

Fucking fine.

Vote: PeregrineV

If that'll get you off my fucking back, great.

How to shatter a town read by tso.

It means the fact that tso gave in ruined my image of him. I had a image that tso took no shit and stood for what he believed in like me but the fact he caved into thor so easily ruined that image of him.

UNVOTE: ane


VOTE: pere

Because I don't want a no lynch

So, to summarize, let's take a look at a few points.

- Garmr has spent the whole game interacting almost exclusively with other players who were obviously either VI or wall-builders.
- Notably, he's mostly spent the game pushing on Axle, Anen, and occasionally Csareo early on.
- If you look in the spoiler above, you'll notice how he calls Thor out for tunneling PereV, but he wants to tunnel Axle D2!
- Waffles on several players for doing certain things, then does the exact same thing not that much later on.
- Again, go to the spoiler for examples, but pay specific attention to his interactions with TSO and Thor.
- Garmr pushes an Anen case almost all of D1, but he backs off before it actually could have led to a townie lynch. He spends most of D1 and D2 pushing Axle and helps clog up the thread instead. (He even admits that he's not trying to push the game state!)

Now, can we lynch scum and call it a day? There's no point in lynching even a soft-claimed power role at this point in the game.

[Scripten]

Yea useless vote is useless gamr wagon reached oblivion

UNVOTE

VOTE:SLANDAR

So wait, you consider your vote on the leading wagon that isn't on a softclaimed PR useless, so you move it onto a totally new wagon?

WTF?

Thor665:

How is this wagon dead? Because Garmr replaced out? I must be missing something, so can you help me out here?

Also, I'd be up for voting GM, Beast, or Slandaar, in that order. I'd not vote Slandaar unless it were deadline, though.

[Scripten]

Then I am willing to go try and do something else. The problem with gamr case is that gamr is not with us anymore. Pushing someone who wont caught up to the game before deadline is impossible.

And yet people say that there's no scum motivation in replacing out. (I personally think it's kind of a gambit in poor taste. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, though.)

I don't understand why Thor just refuses to vote Garmr when his scumreads are based on such weak criteria.

[Scripten]

I don't understand why Thor just refuses to vote Garmr when his scumreads are based on such weak criteria.

Meant Garmr's slot here, of course.

[Scripten]

Technically, that would be Thor, for reasons I've stated before, but alright.

Basically, I find GM's play to be empty (hilarious that she's calling me useless) and with Thor's claim, her case on him is just not looking good. Feels like there may be scum motivation there. Beast is just not feeling at all useful. I don't usually push for policy lynching lurkers, but that slot just... ugh. Also, Heph was totally scum in Open 570 and acted just like he did here before he was replaced. Slandaar's play is weird and I'm not sure if I like it, but I don't think he's past my lynch candidate line.

[Scripten]

Axle I'm not voting garmr because I want to wait for a better catch up and because a vote for Thor is a vote for lollipops and rainbows and if you don't like lollipops and rainbows you're a communist.

That must be why you insist on Stalin the game.

[Scripten]

Unless Reinoe is lying about his double vote to get a reaction out of Thor by creating a fake hammer.

PEDIT: I think GM's got the gist of it.

[Scripten]

GM:

JoshB, you, and Beast are my top scumreads atm, in basically that order. Also, do you think fake-doublevote is useless just because Thor is experienced? If I'm not mistaken, it's totally within Reinoe's playstyle to do a real doublevote quickhammer, so him faking it is possible, too. Not really WIFOM, either, unless you think Thor and Reinoe are a scumteam and Reinoe is trying a crazy gambit to pull votes off of Thor. (I don't.)

[Scripten]

@Slandaar

let me get this correct....in a previous game Boon fake hammered someone. And Boon pointed out that he's done the same thing and you think Boon is scum for that?

He fake-hammered someone, they had Thor's reaction, and they were town.

He claims that Thor is scum because he did what another player did in the same situation as town.

Which is pretty dumb, not gonna lie.

[Scripten]

Thor:

Agreeing with the sentiment being shown here. If you're a one-shot JKer and you've expended your power already, why wait to claim?

And why use your power this early in the game? It seems like waiting until at least one scum had flipped would have been better play, but I'm a newbie, so maybe I'm not seeing it.

[Scripten]

Because an L-1 wagon is more useful for town later for analysis purposes.

Thor665:

goodmorning, Izariael, reinoe, Flubbernugget, davesaz, Josh_B, Boonskiies, Shiro, Nero Cain(Intent)

Okay, can you give highlights from your wagon for us?

[Scripten]

Because an L-1 wagon is more useful for town later for analysis purposes.

Thor665:

goodmorning, Izariael, reinoe, Flubbernugget, davesaz, Josh_B, Boonskiies, Shiro, Nero Cain(Intent)

Okay, can you give highlights from your wagon for us?

Sure, of course I already have given my opinion on them
How about you go first and then I'll do another immediately thereafter?

How about we both start now so you don't get derphammered before giving some reads.

What have I done?

This is a good question.

[Scripten]

Nero you did kinda defended Boon in more than once occasion before. If I recall correctly. Saying that he is genraly read as VI town and the like.

He wasn't in your lynch canditates either

That's not white knighting, tho. That's just a basic VI town read.

[Scripten]

Thor:

I kinda have to do more work than you, and I had a meeting. Now that I'm back, I'll post my reads.

Thor665:

goodmorning, Izariael, reinoe, Flubbernugget, davesaz, Josh_B, Boonskiies, Shiro, Nero Cain(Intent)

If Thor is town:
- davesaz, Josh_B, and Boonskiies are in the prime scum slots on a wagon (If those slots are similar to smaller games.)
- Nero Cain's push for Thor to claim and immediate backing off is a little suspicious. Reads like rolefishing rather than pushing the game state.
- Goodmorning is likely scum, since she started the wagon, but hasn't pushed it nearly as hard as others on it.

If Thor is scum:
- Shiro is likely scum. Thor pushed him when the day started, but never really built up much of a wagon on him. Would be a pretty by-the-book bus attempt.
- Nero Cain is a little less suspicious in this case.

Regardless of Thor's flip, I see Izariael and reinoe as town for their play when interacting with the wagon. Goodmorning could potentially be scum, though I'd like to see more from her in light of recent events before making a call.

Thor? Your turn, if you would please.

[Scripten]

I don't like this Thor/Scripten discussion, it feels sleazy.

Oh?

How?

- Goodmorning is likely scum, since she started the wagon, but

hasn't pushed it nearly as hard

as others on it.

bitch please

Disagree? Show I'm wrong. Muffin and Izar took up the majority of the case; that puts you in a prime scum-leading-town slot. Of course, you only really have to worry about that if you know Thor is town.

[Scripten]

So lets talk about Scriptens actions in the hood last night.

TSO wasn't posting and I called him on it. He said that he forgot and then wanted to talk about Anen. He also asked if we got a night start pm. I told him no and then asked him about his Fonz and Garmr reads. Scripten then made a post that made it sound like me and TSO were fighting. I thought it was strange that he was acting like me and TSO were getting into it. His response was that the night dl was over and to ignore him.
This seemed weird and scummy.

All I saw was you telling TSO that you wouldn't talk to him about what he'd asked about. I wanted to get information from both of you before the night deadline was up. Lo and behold, NEITHER OF YOU FECKING POSTED ANYTHING.

Exactly what was the scum motivation behind that? FFS.

[Scripten]

Alright, so here's what happened in the thread:

1 - Nero and I discuss our reads (Davesaz shows up to give some reads as well during this time.)
2 - We start wondering where the hell TSO is, and I suggest that perhaps he forgot to read his PMs. (Nero mentions that lurking up the night is a scum tactic.)
3 - TSO -finally- shows up, asks if we all can talk about Anen.
4 - Nero says "no" and tells TSO to tell him about Fonz and Garmr.
5 - I'm expecting this to just cause everyone to clam up, so I mention that there's less than a day left to the night at this point, and ask them to exchange reads or something. (I also specifically ask TSO about Anen here)
6 - TSO says he's on an iPad and can't really post; Nero asks me who I'm talking to, and I explain that I'm expecting them to butt heads. Considering their playstyles, I was expecting them to clash and for nothing to get done.
7 - Deadline comes and the topic is still open, so I say that I expected our private topics to be closed at the time the night expired. Dave says that the deadline is only for orders.
8 - Nero says that he doesn't like what I'm saying in the thread. I ask why, and he says it's because I'm trying to play mediator in an argument that didn't exist.

There's some sort of disconnect here going on between me and Nero and it's frustrating.

[Scripten]

5. Please answer Nero's question: who

was

your second-place scumread D1?

He did already. It was you.

[Scripten]

Given that I was your second strongest scumread and you never called me Scum, one scumread is the most accurate truth.

This is pedantic. It does not help your case on Thor.

Josh_B:

Where do you stand on Garmr's reads/play? You're a more coherent player and that, in and of itself, makes my read on your slot wiggle a bit, but I want to know what you think about your slot's play so far.

[Scripten]

Ugh, I hate this. I'm not scumreading Dave or Thor enough to want to see them hang. If we can't hang the Garmr/Josh_B slot, can we lynch beastcharizard? It's done nothing but evasive, active-lurky BS. That's more likely scum than any of the three leading wagons, IMO.

UNVOTE: Josh_B
VOTE: beastcharizard

[Scripten]

Ugh, I hate this. I'm not scumreading Dave or Thor enough to want to see them hang. If we can't hang the Garmr/Josh_B slot, can we lynch beastcharizard? It's done nothing but evasive, active-lurky BS. That's more likely scum than any of the three leading wagons, IMO.

UNVOTE: Josh_B
VOTE: beastcharizard

may I suggest that if you had rowed the garmr/Josh B wagon harder when it was at 4 and I was voting it...
we would not be here?

Well there was something that happened midway through the case being pushed. You know, when Garmr replaced out? Pushing an empty slot is pretty uncool, and I don't feel comfortable doing it.

Alright, so here's what happened in the thread:

So earlier TSO indicated he had told the hood he would post a case today. 2736

Is that the case?
I dont see that in your summary?

The summary was in context of my discussion with Nero Cain. I don't think I transcribed everything that happened in the quicktopic.

[Scripten]

So this was one of my first times playing scum. Also first time in a large.

Anybody have thoughts for improvement of my game? (inb4 don't get scumread by town vig )