NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[davesaz]

/confirm

[davesaz]

VOTE: Egg
Trying to be serious even before the game begins, eh?

[davesaz]

/confirm as town 3-shot reviver

Let's hope for a good time!

Why did you claim? I have no idea why someone in their right minds would claim reviver, and I hope you make it to D2 to realize why.
Can you revive yourself?

/confirm

guys is supersaint a good role y/n

I know some who would argue it's good, and some people who would argue it's bad.
Usually scum claim it to stop wagons on them, which is a con.
They also stop wagons on townies, so that's a pro.

Vote Pere

I honestly think he is scum.

FoS Thor

^in case I'm wrong. You know why.

Also there is nothing joking about this post.

I'm completely serious.

For real.

^__^

Please elaborate?

I don't think any of the confirm phase comments can be taken at face value. Reviver isn't even a normal role. Supersaint could be real but suffers the drawbacks you pointed out.

[davesaz]

Thanks to all those who replied re: the normal role question. That's going to require some extra thought.

[davesaz]

Spoiler: goodmorning quotes

Thanks for your cooperation GM.

What cooperation?

Sorry, tiershift is tunneling me, and you a little, but I found there was more reasoning to your questions.
Even if we disagree on the conclusions.

Tunneling usually implies that you think the person in question is Scum.

Have I indicated such at any point?

Egg is weirdly disconnected.

Considering 4 is the meta for almost garunteed, I would say 5 people in a hood contains a scum, and maybe even multi factions.

Subversion of site meta is one of the easiest ways to make a Normal more interesting. Again, I'm not planning on drawing any alignment-based conclusions just based on whether someone's in a Neighbourhood.

Muffin. That post ain't shit.

goodmorning, do you think Csareo is scummy, maybe townie, or null? I'm getting an everything from you.

It's pretty Null. I've seen this particular brand of play before, though I haven't played with this particular player, and it is not indicative imo. At least, not yet. Could be getting there.

I somehow end up in a large pissing fest with -someone- in every goddamn Large I participate in d1 and it makes it really fucking unfun.

Why don't you just ignore him then?

I'd find it understandable.

Got any weird feelings on anyone so far?

So when I first read the game I thought Csaro was a lil' to "try hard" but

his wagon went rather fast

and that worries me but I'd prob be ok with his vig.

What? I don't think he got above L-10 at any point. How is that "fast?"

Thanks for the moral support, guys, I am officially the grumpiest fuck ever to walk the halls of these forums. :/

wlu tso

I can kind of envision Nero's actions as being scummy.
My other top reads are GM and TSO. I'll take my vote off of TSO once he answers my questions.

Top reads? I assume you mean scumreads? Explain them, and explain why you're trying to appease TSO in this post.

If you first tell me how I'm appeasing TSO. I am pretty confident the dudes scum.
It's just if I push it any longer I'm going to be hanged.

"If you only answer my questions I'll surely unvote you." If that's not appeasing I don't know what is.
I'll repeat the questions too:
Explain your read on Nero.
Explain your read on me.
Explain your read on TSO.
Explain why you would unvote a scumread just for answering questions.

P-EDIT: Please show me where I've said you're Scum. I'll wait.

@Muffin: It's not explicitly non-Normal.
Do you want to start making relevant posts anytime soon?

I'm sorry, did you miss the part where I was on Vacation with Limited Access for the last week? Did you miss the part where I'm going to catch up on 10 pages on the plane? How about you cut me some slack, OK Chief?

Every time you post and don't say anything it makes the game one post longer and more daunting, which makes cute baby animals cry.
I wish you a fair amount of luck in your catchup. I think it might be needed the way this game is going.

Does that help you understand why I might be trying to get off the TSO wagon?

So basically you're concerned that it's making you look bad?
Hmmmmmmmmmm.

explaining Nero snipped and that

So you're scumreading him because he makes jokes? I don't think he's directing anyone anywhere in particular.

- Humor and Misdirection

I really don't see TSO either being humourous or attempting to direct conversation.

- Meta Change

How many games have you played with TSO? Because as far as I can tell I've played in 6 at least with him, not counting any games where either of us was in hydra.
I know a fair amount about his meta and the way it's developed, particularly this new slightly less fucks given style (which I like a bit better than the somewhat abrasive TSO of yesteryear).
I'm not sure whether you do.

- The interaction where he showers me in compliments until you guy's don't

I don't think that happened; or, if it had, that it would be alignment-indicative.

- RVS voting me while also giving me a compliment

1) not sure that was meant as a compliment
2) that's kind of what happens when you RV. The number of times I've randomly voted someone with a "HIIIII" or an alarmingly cheery smiley is far greater than the number of times I've yelled something like "SCUM OMG" or "DEATH TO THE WEST" or something.

- Keeping RVS vote on me after calling me town about a dozen times after

This did happen, but why do you find it scummy?

- Refusing to answer ^

Refusing to answer anything is never a scumtell.

- How others joined my wagon when it became obvious TSO slipped on my meta

How is others joining your wagon indicative of TSO-Scum?

- He actually keeps up with the VI gambit unnecessarily for several posts

I don't think that was a gambit and I don't think he found it unnecessary.

- Thor Votes TSO and says he'll vig me (this needs more looking into)

But what does that have to do with TSO being Scum??

- Refusing to answer my questions and being anti-town

Being anti-Town is also not a scumtell.

P-EDIT: Please show me where I've said you're Scum. I'll wait.

You said you had a read on me of some sort. I'd like to see it explained, yeah?

Getting town vibes on goodmorning.

Nero Cain is similar to other stuff I'm seeing from him, but I don't have a good feel for whether that aspect of his posting is alignment indicative in this game. So I need to spend more time partitioning the information.

What is this multiball thing? Multiple scum teams?

I think what I've seen from Thor looked like town, but would have to re-read to confirm.

[davesaz]

Getting town vibes on goodmorning.

Why? What do you think of csareo/tso?

I only said gm was a vibe. Don't see scum going into that much trouble or detail. Content can certainly sway me on that.

I see csareo/tso as likely to be tvt, but that is not a firm position yet.

I do plan to probe, but I'm not sure yet where the probe should go. So taking the opportunity to pick low hanging fruit. It's the way I normally approach hunting.

[davesaz]

TSO looks like angry young person to me, not scum. That's fairly definitive. Scum don't do this except when thrashing around right before a lynch.

I think I'll look back at csaero to see if the earlier posting was intended to get exactly this reaction.

@Cho, I don't like sheep. Fair warning.

[davesaz]

Hmm, as town I often RVS and then find that person to be town. I rarely move my vote unless (1) a significant wagon forms or (2) I find scum to move it to.
So I don't see townreading and then not moving a RVS vote to be indicative. And this wagon was far from significant.

I'm not saying T S O is town as a result, just saying it's null. Using meta to call it scum may be valid if he's scum when angry more often than not, but I can't use this directly.

[davesaz]

About flying under the radar, I tend to do that when there is a lot of action. I'll soak it up and give some reads later. If you want something specific just ask, however that usually leads to me getting a lot of questions. I'll give some thoughts after work.

How do you feel on giving truthful reads with shaky foundation, vs. just waiting to say anything at all?

[davesaz]

@TobyLoby. Why is most of your posting about Csareo?

[davesaz]

And I townread Scripten.

Have a few minor reads.

TSO seems mildly town. Toby and Tiershift feel town. (Tier feels quite town, in fact.)

Nero Cain looks a little suspicious. Cho feels like scum to me.

UNVOTE: Thor665
VOTE: Cho

Null on scripten. This is the only post to really get reads off of. I agree with about half of it. His light ISO is really what is keeping me from getting off of the fence.

There is not enough information for me to read Scripten. I have seen enough of Thor to read him as town, though his town read of Scripten is questionable from so little material. Grayfoxxxx's post is giving reads on people where I'd expect there to be enough material, and admits that Scripten is still null due to insufficient material. I get a slightly leaning town on fox as a result, but this is very weak.

Toby and Tiershift look like town to me too. I already called out Cho for sheeping, and was leaning scum on her at the time.

I'm beginning to feel like Nero Cain will just be a player who is unreadable to me in the absence of a serious inconsistency, at least until I've seen him flip a couple of times.

I need to read goodmorning's posts since I posted the "feels town" read to see if new material helps clarify it.

[davesaz]

@Pere

, What are your thoughts now that you've read the thread?

Varied and probably not very exciting, but here goes.

Players:
1. Aeronaut*- In some twist of irony has fewer posts than me. We'll see what the catchup police have to say about him, I suppose.
2. Alina- replaced? being replaced?
3. Aneninen- early scumvibes. Later, saying and doing the right things, but taking the meticulous post-by-post approach with no analysis of the posts along with the stunningly empty conclusion of Pere is scum (418). This can easily be compared to Thor's 477 with actual reasons (even if wrong).
4. Boonskiies- Probably scum
5. Cho- thought the mafia claim was good discussion starter. However, it never went anywhere after that, nor was it used to start discussion. For that, downgraded from town-rvs to null (I think psychologically that when scum claim scum it helps relieve their conscious about being scum. If others take it as fake/humor, so much the better. In any scumclaim cases, esp. RVS, I look to motive) Nothing has improved the null read, including the wagon on him.
6. GrayfoxxxxCsareo- I liked for town at the start. That diminshed somewhat by the TSO tunnel. Grayfoxx is still got some town sheen, and has not degraded it any since taking over. We'll see how it goes.
7. davesaz- Early scumvibes. Improved somewhat, but still hits me when I read some of his posts. There is scumhunting there, but it seems of the cautious type.
8. Egg- Liked his early push on me. His later self-doubt I read somewhat as town, but keeping your vote there after expressing that doubt takes away the town cred. This is one I'm be exploring more of later.
9. Garmr- probably town.
10. goodmorning- Another player I usually start reading with a town bias towards their posts. So when I read them and feel icky, not a good sign. Leaning scum.
11. Goofyd00d- Early scumvibes. Some of the things he says are contradictions in and of themselves. (295 and 455 are examples)
12. hephaestus*- skimmed and will catchup later
13. Izariael- Already discussed. early townlean, but high expectations expected.
14. Muffin- Torn here. Outing neighborhood protown, but votes Cho as scum same post. claims I scumposted without a definition of why it's scumposting (very similar to Aneninen).
15. Nero Cain- early townvibes. We'll see if these stay.
16. PeregrineV- So town! My God, so town!
17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.
18. T S O- I think he's town this game. Probably means he's scum. Not my issue, but not voting him right now.
19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.
20. TierShift- very early scumvibe, went away slowly. I see peeks of town, but not enough. Null for now, looking for more.
21. TobyLoby- Early null. The styling of some of her posts I think is town, but their delivery and followup are not there. It's like a one-way questioning but I don't think I've seen responses to the responses to her questions. Slight null-scum, but waiting for a strong read to pop.

More on this multiball thing- When otherscum have otherscum to hunt for, it's easier for them to look town. If it does turn out to be 2 scumteams, that would explain why most of the active posters aren't looking too scummy- they are also scumhunting. But, not crossing that bridge until we get to it, if ever.

I have a feeling that there will be people you're reading that I would say I don't have enough information on, so still null to me. I don't think it is fair to call that caution though. I believe being honest about nulls is town while making up a read on little or no evidence is scummy. Not extremely scummy, so not enough to use that by itself as a read.

One of your observations about Thor reminds me of something I've seen at another site. I want to closely re-read the thread before commenting on this further, so this part of my post is largely a reminder to myself to come back to it. Can't spend that much time on it at work.

Spoiler:

Check my profile age if you want to know why the reminder lol

[davesaz]

The interaction graph sounds like a lot of work, and not sure what it reveals. Really bad style clashes can overshadow alignment to the point to make scumhunting difficult. Scum can hide in them, and town can be confused by them. Even a small group totally avoiding each other doesn't necessarily mean anything. In a game this large it's entirely possible that some players just don't have time to interact with every other player.

pedit: I like the way this game is picking up speed. For a while there it seemed to have stalled. Especially good to hear from slots which had been silent.

[davesaz]

For all those participating in the multiball discussion, please read 2 more closely. Anyone could read that and infer multiple factions, though in fact I believe it is standard boilerplate which neither confirms nor rules out the possibility.

I think it's pointless speculation that does nothing but introduce a good source of WIFOM. And the cloud of doubt just makes the participants in the discussion look scummy while making it harder to see scummy behaviors in others.

[davesaz]

This is written by someone who is not paying attention to the issue or can't figure it out.
The conversation has NEVER been about whether it is or is not multiball.
You should read it again.
Then offer an opinion on the scumtells being advanced.

This is you not understanding that I fully understand the issue and am firmly stating that there are no scumtells involved in this discussion.

[davesaz]

Then why were you trying to halt a conversation that wasn't happening and why are you not trying to advance the Egg wagon?

Doesn't matter to me if you discuss it. Just saying that I don't find it enlightening. Unless you think that merely having the discussion is itself a scumtell?
Which side of the argument should be suspicious? Don't answer that, I can guess your answer. Maybe as a 3rd party I should be even handed in who I suspect.
At least one of the participants has been posting about other things. I have not looked at the other participant to see if he's also casting a wider net. Perhaps I should.

[davesaz]

Followup -- nope, the other participant is pretty much talking about this issue exclusively. Note that I said pretty much, not totally. To the extent that I see in ISO, for about the last 20 or so posts, rough estimate.

[davesaz]

<checks VC> Since when is one RVS vote a wagon? Unless your point is that my vote is still RVS? Well, yeah, it is. Some of the silent missing types have been replaced and the talkative present ones have been saying stuff, so I agree it's time (even past time) to do a little work.

pedit: good, more stuff to reply to. I'll do that separately. The above @Thor's previous...

[davesaz]

I thought we started over?

You indicated desire to do so and I never said anything about it one way or the other - yes.

And I explained the logic about all of it. If you want to continue to press that you do not understand what I am saying, then say so.

I literally just did.

If you disagree, then say so (and I think you did).

That is also correct.

If you want to say you meant this

Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role. But that's all I get out of it.

when you said this

Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be scumbuddies. But that's all I get out of it.

Then say it. Or, say exactly what you meant using as many or as few words as possible.

No, I meant that when I specifically said the word multiball. As I said.
I put it in context to show just how silly your raised statement is.
Now please address it.

Split to introduce context.

Then why were you trying to halt a conversation that wasn't happening and why are you not trying to advance the Egg wagon?

Doesn't matter to me if you discuss it. Just saying that I don't find it enlightening. Unless you think that merely having the discussion is itself a scumtell?
Which side of the argument should be suspicious? Don't answer that, I can guess your answer. Maybe as a 3rd party I should be even handed in who I suspect.
At least one of the participants has been posting about other things. I have not looked at the other participant to see if he's also casting a wider net. Perhaps I should.

Again - you are talking about a conversation that is not happening.
Do you agree with the logic of Pere's raised issue? Why/why not?
<snipped to remove extraneous to the context>

Ahem, that conversation up there. Where you're discussing with Pere.

I do not agree with the logic that mentioning multiball implies knowledge that the setup is multiball.
Because 2 clearly has language that someone

could

infer multiball from.

Making an accusation for mentioning it could be scum trying to make a bogus case, or it could be town trying to use the accusation as a way to get a reaction. From that perspective the discussion might be interesting, or it might be just smoke. But I found it interesting that there is a difference in the amount of non-multiball activity from the two main participants in the discussion.

[davesaz]

Since when is one RVS vote a wagon?

I have always refered to it as such and have no idea why people wish to argue about it every time I do.

What do you call a one vote wagon?

A one vote?

What about two votes? Is that a wagon, or is that two votes, or is it a tandem bicycle or what?

Why are you even debating the definition with me when it is clear what I was talking about whether or not you agree with my word choice?
Yes - you are well past the time to do some work.

Dave is a scum read now too.

Only quoting the first sentence of my reply is a misrep. The point is not that you called it a wagon, it's that it was RVS. Which I freely admit so how can you call me scum for that? Why would I call attention to it myself if I were scum? Not to mention that my other posts today are clearly lining up a thought process that one of you or Pere might be scum as a result of the big multiball hairball. Consider perhaps I'm choking on all that data, too busy figuring out whether it's TvT or not to look beyond it.

[davesaz]

Don't push me to claim, please.

I'm almost positive it's multiball. My role basically implies it.

Kinda annoyed that someone would passively role claim day 1 with only one vote on them. If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum. Unless your just saying that to get some town cred but that will sort itself out in time.

UNVOTE: boon

VOTE: Aneninen

Read 2. I don't think that anyone should claim as a result of this whole multiball thing. Though seeing this interaction it makes me want to consider going after everyone who mentioned it before the big conversation started to see if this whole mess is one big fishing expedition.

[davesaz]

Thor engaged my post callng the multiball-related scumtells into question, where PeregrineV is just ignoring me.

While I find it distasteful that Thor focused more on the terminology and less on the content behind my posts, I can much more easily see that being town than actively avoiding the whole issue. I also find it pretty scummy that PeregrineV would focus on only Thor's mention as scummy, where at least two others have posted about roles.. One of which was before Thor.

VOTE: PeregrineV

[davesaz]

I don't have any previous backgrounds with neighborhoods to say whether it's good to completely out them or bad. I read the wiki article which gives odds of scum in a hood depending on hood size, and assumed that the article is based on totally random hood assignment. My approach to it will most likely be to just ignore them and hunt scum the same way I would normally. The night talking thing is interesting, though the sites I played on before tended to allow private communication unless the game rules said otherwise, not like this site which prohibits unless allowed.

[davesaz]

Scum will have knowledge of all neighborhoods they have a member in. Town does not have general neighborhood knowledge, unless we reveal the neighborhoods before any of us are eliminated. The only knowledge that scum^* gain from reveals is any neighborhoods they don't have members in. It doesn't seem to help scum.

Things which reduce the gap between what scum know and what town know is good for town.

(*) Scum and other factions <if any>

[davesaz]

@thor, if you say one more time that TierShift is not answering the question, I'm going to want to know what question.
If you're trying to get an answer on the "goodmorning whine" then you're going about it the wrong way by quoting something completely different in your reminders.

[davesaz]

Regarding the mention of 4th party. If there were two scum teams (mafia and werewolf or 2 mafia) and a SK, then some people might call that 4 parties -- Town, Mafia, Wolf/Mafia2, SK.
I do not think mentioning it is indicative of alignment because the normal setup rules explicitly mention these 4 possible alignments.

[davesaz]

P-Edit: I don't remember off the top of my head but I think it was probably meta-based.

What was the p-edit replying to?

[davesaz]

I don't think that not posting in the neighborhood pregame can be used for alignment. People could have misinterpreted the thread being open as a mod mistake and just not gotten around to posting there.

Thor is posting longer analysis than he did in a newbie game we both replaced into and were town. But I don't find that aspect of his posting to be alignment indicative since there are so many more players here. The style is similar to that game. Yes, this is me using meta, about the first time I've been able to apply it on this site. On top of that, I see town motivation behind the things that Thor is doing. Thor goes in my town pile, but I also think he's skilled enough to do this as scum so it's not a permanent thing.

The reason I voted PeregrineV is that his post of reads was very comprehensive but mostly really thin. I believe I commented that I didn't see how there could be so many reads with so little information. When I combined that with the aspect that Thor pointed out (Pere seems to be fishing for a 2nd scum team) it pushed Pere firmly into scum territory for me.

I have that same game quoted above in common with Scripten. He was scum in that game. The dry sense of humor seems very similar. One of the things on my todo list is to look at his non humor posting and see if it is also similar to the sample game. Null pending going back through the sections of thread where he appears.

I really hesitate to post on this, because setup discussions bother me. But there is some evidence that misinformation about the setup could be used as a tool and I dislike that even more than the mere discussion. I'm going to take that bull by the horns and give an example. I also noticed the different size neighborhoods. I think it would be a huge mistake to assume that existence of a smaller neighborhood (3) means that none of those people could be (or are likely to be) scum. In fact a Pere scum read pretty much demands the logic that hood size is not alignment indicative, since he's one of the members of the 3. I will note that if Thor were scum, then an assumption that a 3-hood is 2 scum from different factions and a townie would result in the Thor v. Pere situation. Not that it changes my read right now, but another reason to not consider my Thor read as permanent. And to reiterate, making that assumption, or any other assumption about neighborhood makeup, is inherently dangerous. Like WIFOM with both glasses poisoned dangerous. We should try to ignore the hoods and just hunt scum as though we don't know about them.

[davesaz]

I'd think it scummy even without the meta. Verifiable evidence that it's a pattern is helpful to an extent.

Have you settled on a 2nd scum read yet? Anyone stand out? In addition to Scripten I was thinking about looking into someone not getting noticed, provided they have enough content to analyze. I'm explicitly not looking for advice on who to investigate. The brighter a high visibility discussion is, the bigger shadows it casts, which makes the shadows a good place to look for scum.

pedit @Nero: PV = point of view? Further explanation: "Thor scum reading Pere" implies "Thor does not believe the canonical percentages for scum in a hood". Which is consistent with his posting on the matter. Agreed it does not nail down either Thor's or Pere's actual alignment.

pedit2: Oh, you mean PV=PeregrineV. Not necessarily. I don't hold with the notion that the hood leads us that direction. I'm willing to keep the Thor read fluid for different reasons, and haven't even developed a read on Egg yet.

[davesaz]

@Boonskiies: your Cho read is getting stale. What do you think now? Have you even considered questioning anyone or doing other scum hunting?

[davesaz]

FWIW, going through reviews of various players. I reviewed some posts of Muffin. I would call this town with some pretty good confidence.

Spoiler: muffin

i mean it's pretty obvious that if scripten meant "trying to look town by doing lazy scumhunting" rather than "he's bussing me and we're scumbros" then everything is copacetic

i disagree with that description of Iz's post; but that doesn't mean i need to scumread scripten for it. the "leading" cho wagon wasn't much of a wagon at all so attacking someone for being like the 4th person onto a wagon in a 21p large is pretty meh.

the problem with the meta on this site is that a lot of people are too fucking rigid, god damn open your minds, not all scum or town play will fit into your pre-existing mental schema

scripten's a big boy, he doesn't need me to defend him despite your burning desire to argue with me about scripten's motives

ask him yourself, perv

Reminder that throughout this entire exchange where PereV is calling Thor scum, Pere has had his vote parked on a go-nowhere wagon.

What's the matter Per? Scared to vote Thor?

trading vanity for vanity

Vote: Thor

maybe i'm crazy

like, i'm not exactly convinced pere's not scum but i find you quite a lot more so

Hi

I would like you to explain this vote. "Gut" or "I don't know" is not a sufficient explanation for a 35+ page read.

[davesaz]

I'm not sure it holds water that you can reply when your name comes up at the end of the thread and then say you're still reading the history. There are other strategies besides slogging through it post by post. You could try ISOing and then peeking at the context around interesting posts. Heck, you should be able to get some reads off the posts you're replying to.

[davesaz]

haven't even developed a read on Egg yet.

Why not? You have 30 posts, they have 24. If you think all 24 Egg posts are null, then would like to hear that.

Because a read would require allocating more thought to that slot than I have up to this point. Unlike some people I could mention, I don't do a single read through and instantly pigeonhole all 20 players. That seems a lot more suspicious to me than having few reads.

[davesaz]

^ This is more reason to lynch this guy.

I know you have posted a couple of things other than Anen related, but are you even bothering to seriously ready anyone else? Can you explain in a little more detail how being scum is the only reason someone might aggressively defend against an attacker who seems to be deliberately misunderstanding one's posts?

[davesaz]

@Egg: Are you caught up? I've seen some replies you posted to recent posts. Planning to make any attempt at independently scum hunting?

[davesaz]

EBWOP

Bloody cutn paste

These were Aneninen's reasons for scumreading me. To a point, they are fluffy bullshit which is no way indicative of me-scum.

When I called him out, he literally did nothing relevant to refute anything I said - ergo, he knew it was true.

Why would Town do this?

Nope,
I do not have to be able to prove Aneninen is town in order to argue your play is scummy.

It is plausible that Aneninen is Scum and you have (previously) made a derp case against him as somewhere to be out of the way, and not commit to stuff.
It is plausible that Aneninen is

Town

and you have (previously) made a derp case against him as somewhere to be out of the way, and not commit to stuff.

You certainly to my mind have not been trying to get your scum read lynched.

I saw the first version and figured the cut & paste issue. Hate when that happens.

You discount the possibility that someone might have multiple scum reads. It's kinda hard to pursue more than one at a time. Unless your point is that TSO is not actually pursuing any read? That could be a good point but is not the one you're making. It's also telling when a player seems to focus on the interaction between two other players, seemingly to the exclusion of thinking about anything else? Have you been looking elsewhere? I don't "remember" seeing anything, though it would be easy to miss with the noise factor.

It actually does matter if you think Aneninen is town or scum, because it changes your motive. Sure, it's not a necessary condition, but makes subtle changes in the end result.

[davesaz]

^ This is more reason to lynch this guy.

1.I know you have posted a couple of things other than Anen related, but are you even bothering to seriously ready anyone else? 2.Can you explain in a little more detail how being scum is the only reason someone might aggressively defend against an attacker who seems to be deliberately misunderstanding one's posts?

1
Yes I have bothered to read other people I have strong stance that tso and pere are town and will not vote them today. I have been engaging with other people while pushing my main case which you acknowledged in your post so the original question loses it's umpphh phrasing it differently would have a more powerful effect.

2This question is meh and shows your bias seriously you could phrase that way better as it push your opinion into someones mouth. The scenario was I was pushing boon skies who may or may of not been town in the eyes of annienen (null read) and he aggressively defended boon to discredit my reasoning not really to defend boon skies as at the time others had said stuff about boon like thor and he didn't bother with them just me. He was unable to discredit my reasoning and played it off as lets agree to disagree. Town don't seek to discredit cases for the sake of trying to make another player look bad.


Davez a side note to help improve your game try to ask question that don't push what your thinking onto someone ask question to try and draw out what they are thinking. It does give others a better read on what your thinking sure but you should save that for the cases as your opinion in question taints the answer.

Let's try that again, without the specific example.

Player A posts something. Player B attacks player A in a way which appears to be deliberately misunderstanding A's posts. Player A defends. Player B misunderstands Player A's defense and continues to attack. Ad infinitum.

Is player A's defense something only scum would do? Or might A as town aggressively defend against an attacker who is misunderstanding A's posts?

What are your thoughts on the town or scum motivations of player B in this situation?

[davesaz]

I've seen a few people quoting this post.

Scum will have knowledge of all neighborhoods they have a member in. Town does not have general neighborhood knowledge, unless we reveal the neighborhoods before any of us are eliminated. The only knowledge that scum^* gain from reveals is any neighborhoods they don't have members in. It doesn't seem to help scum.

Things which reduce the gap between what scum know and what town know is good for town.

(*) Scum and other factions <if any>

You have to ask why the footnote? Really?

I don't enjoy being tunneled. Too many people in this game appear ready to tunnel folks because their posts do, or do not, seem to have setup knowledge. You know, the posts which say something about multiball. If I don't like something, I do things that I hope will avoid it.

For the record, since there is so much (IMO distracting and really unnecessary) discussion about the topic:

• I define multiball,for the purpose of this discussion, as more than one non-town faction. I
  don't care
  if you agree. I don't care what the wiki says.
  
• The odds favor more than one faction.
  
• Some people could read the townie role PM, quoted in 2 as implying that there are multiple factions.
  
• The quoted post by me says that scum (and other factions) gain knowledge of the neighborhoods they don't belong to. Town gains knowledge of all neighborhoods. Therefore I think that town gains more from revealing than non-town.

When I post something which requires precise language, I use it. When caveats are needed, I post them.

End of PSA.

[davesaz]

You're quite fond of that history-based read, aren't you? While the historical proof only came after the fuss, am I right?

Actually, given the number of these games I played in, and the fact it's 21 players, I immediately thought it unlikely to have 2 scumteams (hence the Thor statement). Thor pretty much challenged that assertion, so I pulled the games.

So proof, yes, because it was requested. Opinion was part of the the 501.

A difference of opinion does not automatically make one of you scum and the other town.

[davesaz]

Who would have thought my vanity vote would spark some actual looking into Thor?

Umm, I think vanity is right, if you think it has anything to do with people looking into Thor. Thor is the cause of people looking into Thor. You're almost a non-issue to this point.

I'm rereading today, should have decent reads on people by the end.

By the end of what? The game? And what do you mean by decent? Will you be providing anything other than gut / meta reads?

P-EDIT: I find daytalk a little unlikely given that the neighbourhoods seem to all be Night-only, unless nobody bothered to share that gem. I'd like to think that someone would have taken the Cabd-NY169 route and gone "yeah we're daytalking

masons

neighbours so scum probably have daytalk."

If there is daytalk, I'm sure not seeing any evidence of it. Though TBH I'm not sure what evidence would be.

[davesaz]

I looked up to sky to see the dark grey cubes flying.
The dark grey cubes of double standards, of puppetshow authorities, of inverted telescopes.
Thought control punishes the one who still dares and drives into caves those who dare not.

Things like this:

"Town don't seek to discredit cases for the sake of trying to make another player look bad."

make me think things like these.

But, nowadays I need not care.

I should not care.

There are puppets who are able to dance with no one.

Time passes.
It's time to give you a bone so that you will search more meat on it.
This.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: T S O

I'd have more ideas. That has not been a bad idea. Even if I have better ideas too. I could post more. I could post in a sensible way. But no. Not yet. You would not believe me. Not yet. The puppets are made of Regardless-Of-Cards. The more they use them, the smaller they will be.


Hint.

The events make sense. Especially if it's a Multiball.

How do you define "talk to" vs. "talk at"?

As for this post, I can see that you threw something literary sounding around the vote so that the vote is not naked, but I'm not getting the drift of what the words say, if they say anything of substance.

[davesaz]

Davesaz is really glaringly posting lots of IIoA. Newbie though. Consider this a warning to be more proactive.

It would be a bit easier if anyone was commenting on what I say. Some of the information is intended to generate a response which can then be analyzed.
I see a whole lot of stuff going by which either doesn't change my reads or doesn't apply at all. What am I supposed to do, comment on it anyway?

[davesaz]

Aaaaand fck the shyt, I had been nearly finished with my catchup when I misclicked and it's gone.
Fortunately, there are not too many things to post about.
Csareo is being Csareo right on Page2. And he goes on like that which is a null and basicly, most of the posts are related to him. In the game I linked he did the very same.
That post-pair from Nero, calling Csareo not-town and town in his next post is a WTF.
Also, need we care about those Day1/2 stuffid claims?

Unfortunately, I have no real reads yet. Mostly because of Csareo, who has been drawing away the focus of the game.
However,
@Those who're scumreading them: what's the case against TSO? What's the case against Toby? These things might be based upon real content but I'm simply too tired to distill the very little real content out of the Csareo–respond-to-Csareo–Csareo–another-respond–Csareo... rondo.

Anen: I mean, I'm reading what you're saying as you having seen Csareo play similarly before and he was town, but you're also calling his play here a null.

Having thought about this question (I woke up about an hour ago) I must admit, my null-read is based upon the assumption that a scum!Csareo wouldn't have a very different gameplay. (I didn't find any games which he was surely scum in.) However, in Mini#1601 (before replaced into his slot on Day1) he had done more vote and read-flipping than here. We must remember this, though this may be a sing of a kind of improvement of his gameplay.

@Thor. I re-checked TOS. He

should

know Csareo's gameplay well – yet he's putting too much effort into his conversation with him. Also, TSO had voted for "Caesar" and our mod posted that his vote wouldn't be counted. TSO hasn't correct his vote since then (nor did another vote), as far as I can see. These things are disturbing.

TSO knows how terrible Csareo is on Day1 and he also knows that he was town in that game. I simply don't understand why TSO's maintaining a long interaction with Csareo – he must have known that by getting involved in that would increase the "noise" in the thread. It's definitely anti-town and – in my opinion – scummy too.
There's something else which is merely an intuition. What if both of them are scum(s) and their Day1 is purely intentional?

Tier, do you think this is a natural progression of reads?

If you want to explain why it makes sense, I'd appreciate it.

Do you mind if I join in?

Actually, do I care if you mind? Maybe I shouldn't...

• In 223, I don't think Anen has a read at all, and is asking why other people are scum reading you.
  
• In 241, Observing that your vote was not counted and you did nothing to fix it. Questioning that seems reasonable. I thought the same thing at the time (that it was odd you didn't fix the vote). If you really wanted your vote there, I would expect town to revote. Not revoting is something I might expect scum to use as an excuse later. You can point to the (bad) vote and say "see, I did think he was scummy" and perhaps get away with it.
  
• In 250, Anen questions why you kept at Csareo so long, and attributes anti-town to the behavior. Then there is a followup thought that you might both be scum. It was around this point that I attributed the whole thing to anger, and others agreed with me.

I don't see anything wrong with the sequence from Anen. It's very easy to see town motivation in Anen's side of that sequence of events. You did something a little questionable, and drew suspicion as a result. What I'm not sure of is why you're continuing to make a big deal about it. I think Anen didn't even vote you until the last 24 hours, after you continued to poke at the subject. What's really mystifying is how you can think the original 3 posts you quoted were scummy, or more accurately how you can think that progression of reads is scummy.

Is this really the focus of your case on Anen, or do you have something stronger and more recent? Thinking Anen could have town motivation for these 3 posts does not necessarily equal a town read.

P-edit: So it's the timing you're concerned about? I often post, think, and post again. Not hard to imagine someone else doing that... Though I'd have to look at the time stamps to see if it was a matter of minutes or hours to know for sure if it's reasonable.

[davesaz]

BTW -- definitely hours. Plenty of time to read and/or think more. So timing itself is debunked.

[davesaz]

T S O - Keep the last thing I said in mind though, just because those 3 posts are townish doesn't mean that Anen gets a pass. "Because he won't listen to me" goes both ways as a bad reason for a vote. There is still work to do to sort out whether it's scum acting like bad town, or just bad town.

[davesaz]

Walk me through what I'm supposed to see?

You're not supposed to see anything. That's the point.

So let me get this straight. You were reaction testing Toby by

not communicating

? And you expect us to believe that? Or are you just saying that your reaction test involved Toby perhaps as an experimental subject, and you were really looking for the reactions of someone else to that non-communication?

If you were looking for whether there was a response or not, I'd think you would have posted something provocative in order to generate, or not generate, that response. No evidence of that kind of activity with regard to Toby.

Let me guess, the reaction test was saying there was a reaction test? To find out who, if anyone, responded to that? Or aimed at a specific player?

I think it makes a dandy way for scum to deliberately not say anything useful for a few days. From a scum motivation, if someone calls you out on it it gives you an attack point. And if nobody calls you out on it, then you get to skate for a while. I think I like this explanation a lot better than what I've seen in your responses to it.

[davesaz]

Flubber, welcome! The different view on Thor is thought provoking. I'd be interested in your thoughts on goodmorning.

[davesaz]

Annnndddd... things got busy. If you scan posts on me, yes I have variable game focus. No comment beyond that. Still need to follow up on Flubber's take on Thor to see if it has any legs.

[davesaz]

@^: TSO is not likely to flip, much less so to flip Scum.

ANYWAY.

I REALLY WANT A VOTECOUNT OMG

Players who are Town: GrayFoxxx, Garmr, TSO, Tier
Players who are not Town: Thor, Fonz
Players who may be Town: Cho, dave, Flubbernugget, Pere, Scripten
Players who may not be Town: Aeronaut, Axle, Anen, Muffin, Nero
Players who may or may not be Town: Boonskiies, Egg, hephaestus, Izariael

If you'd like an explanation of one of these and I haven't already given it, you're welcome to ask.

Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

[davesaz]

Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.

Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

I know Izariael is in your null pile. Can you explain the null based on material in the thread? Or explain what's missing?

Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

[davesaz]

What is WOTC?

[davesaz]

@Flubbernugget: Regarding a fairly recent colorful post that you replied to. Sometimes a scum hunter needs to know something about the player specifically targeted by the question. When other people grab onto that question is can interfere with the attempted read.

[davesaz]

I think my question of why axle was encouraging a gamestate stall was more important.

I got something useful technique-wise from his reply to your question about it. I already knew a little of the technique and had previously used it to decide whether to vote PV. I hope that this back and forth didn't screw the process he was trying to use. I don't think these 3-4 posts will actually stall things, and I think if it does then we look at the people who make too much of it.

What is WOTC?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WOTC

Thanks. The abbreviations page now has a link.

[davesaz]

I've been troubled by TSO returning to the same set of 3 posts, especially after he had appeared ready to drop it in 1239. His posts in the vicinity of 1331 and again at 1371 look to be ducking the game, perhaps to see if the focus on his tunnel will subside. But then he's back at it in 1470.

On the positive side, TSO has been engaging with multiple players, and does occasionally touch on topics other than Anen. In particular see 1492
Still, that doesn't seem to be generating alternate scum reads.

Axle clearly has two targets, perhaps 3. I find those targets to be worthy of hunting. I don't mind the "dodge", since I understand the undercurrent.

I found it interesting that Flubbernugget and Muffin are both asking questions about Axle's methods at the same time. Could just be a coincidence that this is the current topic. But I'm worried that they seem intent on throwing chum after being explicitly told that there is bait in the water.

[davesaz]

Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.

Explain your reads. I don't listen to meta, I lynch the players who rely too much on it. Because only scum don't explain their reads.
Clear enough for you?

[davesaz]

Town TSO

is far more likely to throw himself at a brick wall like that.

This is pure meta.

Town

anyone

is more likely to fall into that trap. That TSO is especially isn't really the point.

I happen to agree with this, though it does start a little in the direction of assuming scum

can't

tunnel. I think it's more accurate to say that scum do tunnel, but they do it strategically where they're likely to either appear town or get a mislynch. Scum don't generally tunnel randomly, and they don't generally go back to their tunnel after being called on it by town. This analysis counts as a town-leaning factor for TSO.

I don't like TSO's attempted use of appeal to his own authority. I have not looked deeply into the reasons it came up, and have no real desire to do so. Even if it were in direct response to something like "your case is crap", using previous results to show he can catch scum (in a good game for him) doesn't give a free pass on proving his case in this game. If someone challenges his case, he needs to be able to back it up. If he can't back it up, admit it was a bad case and move on. Not being able to back a case, and in particular being unwilling to back it, is scummy. Notice I'm not focusing on the AtA itself, but the lack of backing on the case.

These two aspects of returning to the tunnel, that scum wouldn't do it causes a town lean, but failing (and refusing) to back up the case causes a scum lean, means that the tunnel itself nulls out. I think we should be sorting TSO by things that don't relate to the tunnels. That kind of analysis will be more accurate than ignoring either side of the equation.

@Axle: The above paragraph means that you need more on TSO than just the tunnel. I totally agree that the tunnel puts him in "needs investigation", but things other than the tunnel are the key.

[davesaz]

If you can back up your case, then back it up for me please.
Don't forget that I've looked at the early part before and discounted it, which you apparently had agreed with.

[davesaz]

Are you ever going to actually play this game?

[davesaz]

Yeahhhhhhh, "pretend" wasn't in there because I wanted you to explain; if I had I'd have asked you to.
"Pretend" was in there because I was trying not to get annoyed.
"Was" is in the previous sentence because now I

am

annoyed.

Well, you responded and I think it was a fair price.

I'm not quite ready to call TSO totally town based on your explanation, but I agree that the potential reward on his play does not seem to make sense for scum. Waiting for his promised case... The lack of apparent scum motivation for TSO's play makes me doubt Axle. While Axle has posted on other topics, his push on TSO seems awfully one dimensional, and he doesn't seem to be taking enough surrounding information into account. However, Axle's push does get mitigated to some extent for a similar reason that TSO gets mitigated. I'm not sure what's the scum angle in continuing to push someone when the argument isn't gaining traction.

Likewise I'm not willing to call Thor as definitely not town, because there isn't a lot of directly scummy behavior. I am significantly less confident in his towniness than early in the gamee. Like Axel, he is posting on multiple topics but doesn't seem to be actually pushing anyone but PereV. There is support for the PereV wagon which means it's not as risky for potential scum to maintain.

I'm interested in hearing more / looking into The Fonz. I got immediate scum vibes but can't quite lay a finger on it right now.

The set of talking people seems to be smaller than the set of not replaced people. I know there are a couple of V/LA but still I'd probably like to suspect the ones who are here doing next to nothing over the ones who are not here at all.

[davesaz]

He's passively scumhunting.

The reason I voted PeregrineV is that his post of reads was very comprehensive but mostly really thin. I believe I commented that I didn't see how there could be so many reads with so little information. When I combined that with the aspect that Thor pointed out (Pere seems to be fishing for a 2nd scum team) it pushed Pere firmly into scum territory for me.

I read this as "my vote on PV is shit so maybe sheeping thor will spray enough fabreeze on it for nobody to notice."

This is how I play. I prefer to read the thread and decide who is scum by what they post. I have enough time to post a few times total per day across all my internet activity, everywhere. Deal with it.

[davesaz]

I wasn't questioning him to win an argument. I was questioning him to clarify his stance on TSO. I wasn't questioning him to build a case on him. I was questioning him to attempt to read him.

If you find this valuable, asking people lots of questions to help attain a read, why have you not done this with anyone else?

You're kidding me. The rolefishing set is aimed at a single newb newb newb player _{(who actually tried to rolefish)}. The second set is thinking of a hypothetical reasonably experienced set of Scum _{(who are apparently not taking the "lynch Boonskiies" action)}.
Of course I'm thinking on different levels - one of them is labelled "Inexperience Challenged."

So, what you actually asked a newbie was: Why would a hypothetical reasonably experienced set of scum try to lynch PR's?

How is a newbie supposed to know what reasonably experienced scum do or don't do?

I don't think that is what you were asking.

Wait, what newbie was GM asking a question of?

I honestly had no problem with either question. And I would have classified GM's 2nd line of questioning differently than you did. But what's your definition of a newbie?

@GM, same question, how do you define newbie?

[davesaz]

More examples of Dave saying how much he loves gm and hugging up to her. Why don't you just marry her dave?

Try reading 1632 and 1803. I'm following a line of questioning here. It's subtle, but you have to be subtle with certain targets.

[davesaz]

Try just answering please. Explaining the why would contaminate the question.

[davesaz]

How about something more specific than that. # games? # months? Behavior?

[davesaz]

Because Tso is being Tso.

Do you have specific game to refer me to that will make your point clear? (so that I can see it for myself)

I expect that to be way harder thing to do as TSO is more experienced player with larger palette of previous play styles as town or scum.

Also I do argue he is better lynch that PereV, or Thor, who I have said I dont want to lynch D1.

This for instance is self described on wiki "Bah. I played fucking shit here."
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=29163
and he does not seem to do the anti town stuff I am talking about there.

Wait you ask me for examples as why tso is being tso but it's ok that annienen didn't provide an example how boon is self conscious as town and your fine with that? (even through i do think his town now.) That's kinda bs and hypo fucking critical. I'm going to show you a game where tso is acting similarly to what he is now except he used no hard cases at all, mini 1510 . He also got into one of his pushes on majiffy like he did with ane this game and it lasted till a majjify lynch if i remember correctly.

This game also shows my 2nd scum tick which i only had 4 times before this game
1.my first normal with banksy flareon
2.that game on grimgrove (tso counter pushed me on this one day 1 i so could of got him lynched but then again i fucked up end game.),
3.Regefan in mafia in space(ffery told me to shut up about regefan because she was in a foul mood and he was her number 1 town read I was right she was wrong instinct vs theory)
and 4. a game with Beelzebub in georgetown(yuck belzefail).

Axle you are my 5th to trigger this instinct in a strong enough manner.

I'm having a difficult time understanding what you're trying to say here. Care to explain what the point is?

[davesaz]

@Thor what do you think of some of the weaker vote on your wagon like dave's and boon's?

So Flubbernugget... I've noticed that damn near every post you make is a poke like the ones you were sending my way, or weak questions like this. Observations but no analysis. I'm starting to think you're scum trying to skate by.

[davesaz]

Axle is town. As scum, he'd know there is no daytalk.

If Axle were scum, he'd know if there is or is not daytalk. But you wrote this pretty definitely -- "he'd know

there is no daytalk

".
This makes it sound like

you

know there is no daytalk.

VOTE: Egg

[davesaz]

I'm quite surprised that nobody scumread me after I "caught" Egg having "scum knowledge".

This brings up two inconsistencies. Some players are seen as scummy if they point out other players who seem to have inside information, but other players who make the same observation are not scummy. And there seems to be a double standard on the posting of apparent inside information as well.

UNVOTE:

[davesaz]

I don't see either inconsistency.

PereV called you out for seeming to have inside information. Your scum read on him is based on the way he's inconsistently applying the inside information tell to you and not to others. But you are being inconsistent with how you're handling his inconsistency vs. how you handle the same inconsistency in others.

[davesaz]

To be fair I scum read people sheeping thor on the pere wagon If that's what you mean by thors wagon and thors town reading everyone of them and I felt he could only explain one adequately.

Are you saying that sheeping is sufficient to scum read someone? Or that it's scummy to town read someone who is sheeping you?

[davesaz]

Why would I come into a fresh discussion with an agenda?

Is this a serious question?

Lets talk hypothetically; If you are scum do you think you would have an agenda while entering a fresh discussion?

I begin to see the problem here. One of us is wrong about my alignment. Hmmmmm.

The only agenda I have, as either alignment, is to figure things out.
I don't come into questioning intending anything else.

This does not quite ring true. Sure, maybe at a high level you're figuring things out, but that's not the only factor in deciding whether to enter a discussion and how. Scum can and do butt in when a townie is after their buddy, for example. Disrupting the questioning process is a way to help a buddy without openly defending them. So information gathering as the explanation for entering a discussion is really shallow.

[davesaz]

Can you guys stop theory crafting.

My opinion is that Aneninen is scum for reason s aforementioned.

It is a distraction to be arguing about theory, this game is long enough

If you're talking to me, it is not theory. If you're not responding to me, then who? Quoting is good.

[davesaz]

Are you two going to like, bury the hatchet or something? We townies always have the option of lynching both of you later if it's MB.

[davesaz]

Crap, there was another page after the place I had read to, and it screwed up my joke entirely.

[davesaz]

Hey, wait, it wasn't that bad after all. But I derped by jumping to conclusions anyway. lol

TSO -- you

still

owe that case. I'm seriously considering sheeping onto your wagon for this reason.

[davesaz]

I have to agree with TSO on the evidence here. PereV didn't even attempt a case on Anenienen, and had just barely called him scummy in a not very committal way.

But I also have to ask TSO, how is it alignment indicative to vote a counterwagon?

[davesaz]

The only agenda I have, as either alignment, is to figure things out.
I don't come into questioning intending anything else.

This does not quite ring true.

Sure, maybe at a high level you're figuring things out, but that's not the only factor in deciding whether to enter a discussion and how. Scum can and do butt in when a townie is after their buddy, for example. Disrupting the questioning process is a way to help a buddy without openly defending them. So information gathering as the explanation for entering a discussion is really shallow.

I

began

the questioning process, so I'm really not sure where you're going with this.

You are saying things that are not true. (Unless it is true that you never have an agenda, do you really mean that?)
Why does this need to be explained?

What alignment says things that aren't true?

[davesaz]

I don't think you can call it misrepresenting when person B is correcting person A's interpretation of B's own statement. B said something, A used an incorrect meaning of B's words, B corrected A. Not a misrep.

@GM, I don't really care about the words you hilighted. I care about the words I hilighted, and those words say you're scum. It's a lie that you never have an agenda other than figuring things out.

[davesaz]

Adjusted that for how it was used in the discussion.
Adding in the other SK ones changes it to a 6/13 ratio.
Meaning, roughly, 50%

This is not a correction, this is Thor saying PV is wrong it's 50% when clearly in the discussion PV was not meaning SK+scum games. At this point Thor should have realized (he should have before but this is the absolute latest) that PV meant only games with 2 scumteams.

This means when Thor says 'adjusted for how it was used in the discussion' he is misrepresenting PV because clearly that was not how PV was using the term multiball in the discussion.

It does not matter what Thor's original meaning was.

I disagree. Thor's meaning is the only thing that does matter. Thor's case is that PV persists in scum reading him after learning that he misunderstood Thor's meaning. I'm also starting to think that PV's case is a SK slip.
VOTE: PeregrineV

[davesaz]

Dave, why do you townread thor? Who next to pere do you scumread? why?

Thanks, I was beginning to think that nobody would ever ask.

My townread on Thor is not very strong. He is engaging with several players, not just beating the PereV drum with nothing else to say. Staying out of the big 1v1's, or at least not going in very deep. I wasn't sure how to interpret his lack of reaction to my test. I don't see the big "we gotta lynch someone" that I'd expect from town, it's kinda like he's got his fish on the line and is quite willing to leave it there till deadline.

I'm pretty sure one of Axle or TSO is scum, but I can't tell which.

TSO could be read as someone who is making himself obnoxious enough to be ruled out as possible scum. As a townie that play could be intended to make sure that scum don't target him as NK because he's good lynch fodder in future days, while town don't lynch him because his play is annoying but not very scummy. As scum, he could be aiming for the same niche (annoying but not especially summy) while hoping that his tunnel takes hold -- then he's absolved by being able to say "don't look at me, I'm just tunnely". The errors in interpreting his targets' posts could be strategic, or just misguided.

Axle could very easily be scum going after the obviously annoying target. Town might thank him for lynching TSO if the noise ratio goes down, even with a town flip. This doesn't feel like a TvT. TSO is defending but not tunneling back, so either scum Axle is after town TSO, or town Axle is after scum TSO.

[davesaz]

Can someone give me a summary of the scumread on Anen? The density is so high that I hadn't noticed that a wagon formed there, till the VC.
And I'm quite surprised to note that Axle is posting so much to/about TSO, but voting PereV.

[davesaz]

Re: Anen read. I'm not necessarily asking for this from TSO at this time. Anyone voting Anen who has a reason for it feel free to answer.

[davesaz]

Start with which word, or words, were disquieting. Focus less on the oddly part.

[davesaz]

Dave, why did you need to be asked about your reads in order to discuss them?

Yay, you did it too!

That's an expression of joy that someone bothered to read what I'm writing, and respond to it.

I tend to be interrupt driven. If I read something that catches my attention, I act on it. When there are multiple pages a day flying by which are not actionable, I tend to zone out. Saw that argument before, and it doesn't seem to have changed since I was last here. When I post something and nobody acts like they even saw it, it demotivates me.

So yes, I'm overjoyed every time my name comes up this game.

Oh, you're also kinda asking about reads. Haven't had a whole lot to trigger reads. I'm trying to poke gm and she seems to be ignoring me. I asked Anen why he's constantly posting about people talking at him vs. to him, and didn't see an answer. I posted a serious dig at the way people are inconsistent in their treatment of setup knowledge "slips" (more than once even) and got nothing but yawns. I have high standards on town reads because I've been burned numerous times by scum doing a really good job of acting town, here and on other sites. Look way back in my iso and you'll see I jabbed at PereV about having a read on everyone in the first couple of RL days into the game.

[davesaz]

(2) it seems that there are a couple of players who are talking at and about me instead of talking to me, who are constantly scumreading me regardless of the posts I write.

What does this mean?

The answer makes a difference in how I read you. Please give an example of talking at you, and an example of disregarding what you post.

[davesaz]

I have posted a couple of times why I think PereV is scum. It's not just sheeping (which I define as merely voting after someone) but also actively agreeing with the case and independently finding it scummy.

I find AxleGreaser's focus to be scummy. All that posting in a direction, but IIRC he's been voting someone else the whole time.

Goodmorning's evasiveness is scummy. I don't buy the "oh, I don't have time to be concrete" thing. It has been weeks. And everyone knows that the only "fact finding" scum need to do is finding a bogus "scum read" that townies will agree with.

Confirming I have played elsewhere. Dozens of games, single and multiple factions, bastard roles, cults, with or without private communication. Haven't played neighborhoods (because those sites did not have private forum threads), and not a lot of experience with 1-shot roles. Most of what I have played would not be considered Normal here. I'm finding it to be more challenging, especially the lack of free for all private communication which was available in the majority of games I've played. And one game here equals months of posting for the whole mafia forum on my previous sites. So just keeping up on reading is hard.

[davesaz]

One "day" in one game.

[davesaz]

@Boon: Why are you so sure about both points?

[davesaz]

Thor's town. And it's multiball...

These points, that you just posted.

[davesaz]

I don't like how Axle is spending most of his time putting up walls at/about Garmr but not voting him. Same thing happened yesterday and clogging up the thread is a scum tactic.

VOTE: AxleGreaser

[davesaz]

Dave is that your only scum read?

No, but I can only vote one. I don't trust Boon's claim but am not ready to take action on that yet. TSO's missing case on Anen was pretty scummy and he would have a motive to kill Anen to get out of having to provide a case.

Axle is town.

This statement is missing a "because" clause. I don't like that for town statements any better than I do for votes.

[davesaz]

Very cute, but your reply is missing a how you know that clause.

[davesaz]

Yesterday I was very uneasy with goodmorning. The reasons to reads ratio was way too low for my taste. 2800 dispelled most of that. While it's a little bit of a wall from going into so many points at once, it is narrowly focused on each point covered and there is an investigative point to it. It's not the amount of effort, but the kind of effort that looks like town motivation. Still have some doubts, over the semantics discussion which I saw as a possible attempt to brush off agenda focused criticism.

Thor is looking more scummy to me than before. I saw his actions as townish, but scum could easily be motivated to act that way. Scum who believe it's multiball would be even more motivated in that direction.

Flubber's fairly caustic entry was a little scummy, but I know from a previous game that he gets that way as town. I'm significantly more comfortable with today's activity.

[davesaz]

'But as scum you don't catch scum, eh?' To finish that sentence?

Actually as scum I'd probably somehow be more competent at catching scum than as town.

That would be a real trick.

But I don't actually bus as scum in general - I've done it once so far, excluding deadline busses, as far as I remember. It's kinda a point of pride for me.

You now claim to have meta where you don't bus (as point of pride) but are better at catching scum as scum that town.

Pinocchio how long is your nose?

Wanna show me some links of you catching scum as scum without bussing?
and you being better at that as scum than as town?

Considering 2826, this may be the scummiest townslip I have ever seen, and I really don't know what to think of that.

I don't see it. Can you hilight what the "slip" is?

[davesaz]

Related somewhat I really like this method of posting cases

Why? Or more to the point, how does it help town?

[davesaz]

Go to his iso, use Ctrl+F for 'Boon' find a post where he's talking about Boon and his claim and how he doesn't see it as a valid scum move.

Ok.
Looking prior to your post where you referred to it. (1022)

Spoiler: here is every post where Dave talks about Boon

@Boonskiies: your Cho read is getting stale. What do you think now? Have you even considered questioning anyone or doing other scum hunting?

Don't push me to claim, please.

I'm almost positive it's multiball. My role basically implies it.

Kinda annoyed that someone would passively role claim day 1 with only one vote on them. If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum. Unless your just saying that to get some town cred but that will sort itself out in time.

UNVOTE: boon

VOTE: Aneninen

Read 2. I don't think that anyone should claim as a result of this whole multiball thing. Though seeing this interaction it makes me want to consider going after everyone who mentioned it before the big conversation started to see if this whole mess is one big fishing expedition.

Spoiler: Every post where dave replies to someone who talked about Boon, but dave doesnt

@Pere

, What are your thoughts now that you've read the thread?

Varied and probably not very exciting, but here goes.

Players:
1. Aeronaut*- In some twist of irony has fewer posts than me. We'll see what the catchup police have to say about him, I suppose.
2. Alina- replaced? being replaced?
3. Aneninen- early scumvibes. Later, saying and doing the right things, but taking the meticulous post-by-post approach with no analysis of the posts along with the stunningly empty conclusion of Pere is scum (418). This can easily be compared to Thor's 477 with actual reasons (even if wrong).
4. Boonskiies- Probably scum
5. Cho- thought the mafia claim was good discussion starter. However, it never went anywhere after that, nor was it used to start discussion. For that, downgraded from town-rvs to null (I think psychologically that when scum claim scum it helps relieve their conscious about being scum. If others take it as fake/humor, so much the better. In any scumclaim cases, esp. RVS, I look to motive) Nothing has improved the null read, including the wagon on him.
6. GrayfoxxxxCsareo- I liked for town at the start. That diminshed somewhat by the TSO tunnel. Grayfoxx is still got some town sheen, and has not degraded it any since taking over. We'll see how it goes.
7. davesaz- Early scumvibes. Improved somewhat, but still hits me when I read some of his posts. There is scumhunting there, but it seems of the cautious type.
8. Egg- Liked his early push on me. His later self-doubt I read somewhat as town, but keeping your vote there after expressing that doubt takes away the town cred. This is one I'm be exploring more of later.
9. Garmr- probably town.
10. goodmorning- Another player I usually start reading with a town bias towards their posts. So when I read them and feel icky, not a good sign. Leaning scum.
11. Goofyd00d- Early scumvibes. Some of the things he says are contradictions in and of themselves. (295 and 455 are examples)
12. hephaestus*- skimmed and will catchup later
13. Izariael- Already discussed. early townlean, but high expectations expected.
14. Muffin- Torn here. Outing neighborhood protown, but votes Cho as scum same post. claims I scumposted without a definition of why it's scumposting (very similar to Aneninen).
15. Nero Cain- early townvibes. We'll see if these stay.
16. PeregrineV- So town! My God, so town!
17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.
18. T S O- I think he's town this game. Probably means he's scum. Not my issue, but not voting him right now.
19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.
20. TierShift- very early scumvibe, went away slowly. I see peeks of town, but not enough. Null for now, looking for more.
21. TobyLoby- Early null. The styling of some of her posts I think is town, but their delivery and followup are not there. It's like a one-way questioning but I don't think I've seen responses to the responses to her questions. Slight null-scum, but waiting for a strong read to pop.

More on this multiball thing- When otherscum have otherscum to hunt for, it's easier for them to look town. If it does turn out to be 2 scumteams, that would explain why most of the active posters aren't looking too scummy- they are also scumhunting. But, not crossing that bridge until we get to it, if ever.

I have a feeling that there will be people you're reading that I would say I don't have enough information on, so still null to me. I don't think it is fair to call that caution though. I believe being honest about nulls is town while making up a read on little or no evidence is scummy. Not extremely scummy, so not enough to use that by itself as a read.

One of your observations about Thor reminds me of something I've seen at another site. I want to closely re-read the thread before commenting on this further, so this part of my post is largely a reminder to myself to come back to it. Can't spend that much time on it at work. [spoiler2=""]Check my profile age if you want to know why the reminder lol[/spoiler2]

Thor the post you claim exists does not exist in this thread.

So no Thor I cant find the post.

Dave does not say what you claim he said in this game thread.

Could you try searching in another thread where you and Dave can both post but I cant see it?

I remember

seeing

something here that says substantially the same thing that Thor said, but don't see anything I said that could have even been construed to mean the same thing. I think it was probably someone else and Thor got the attribution wrong. Whether he got the attribution wrong by mistake or design, I leave to the reader to discern.

If this point remains unresolved when I'm next available to look at it, I may try to find it myself.

---

As for what I actually think about Boon, I find Boon's claimed role to be pretty weird. Are there normally town bulletproof here? Anyone familiar with that being a role?

[davesaz]

@Boon: Why are you so sure about both points?

ok, you saw two nightkills, what does that make YOU think?

I thought it was likely that we would have multiple killing roles, but it's nowhere near being clear what those roles are. Hence the question about certainty.
Not to mention the d1 comment about "my role implies it", which deserved some possible followup.

[davesaz]

PSA: "False Dichotomy"

Spoiler: logic

A

False Dichotomy

is a logical fallacy which arises from "either this or that" arguments which ignore the possibility of additional possible results. A classic example is "if you're not for me then you're against me", which ignores the possibility of having a neutral opinion.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled scum hunting.

[davesaz]

@Thor: I thought GM was on the lurky useless side too, D1, but D2 has been completely different. But don't let that interfere with your wanting answers.

[davesaz]

The job offer is one you created - it is one that only you can choose to fill or to not fill. I'm not part of that conversation.

I see I am already the staff recruiter?! I can appoint the Guardian Angel myself?! I shall take the position then Thorsie!

I got this now Thorsie no problems!

I don't get why you feel the need to ask thor slandaar you either do or you don't that's a pretty weird thing to do.

If you want a serious answer: fun.

This pings me a bit. Sure, a little fun can be good, but this would also make a nice intro to actually defending Thor under the guise of a make-believe angel role. After all, guardian angel and devil's advocate are not far apart. Maybe you're on the same scum team? This does come at a time that Thor's wagon is on the rise.

[davesaz]

Ooh, a chart. Don't think I've seen a chart on this site before.

[davesaz]

In fact, the sheer amount of time you're spending calling me a liar rather than pushing any kind of case makes my case even stronger.

Yeah, I noticed this too. And I think it might be disproportionate to other instances where people could be accused of lying. TSO comes immediately to mind, how many times did he promise a case on Anen? Yet it's been dropped while Thor is continuing to press you. Now Thor might claim he's just better at pushing people on this sort of thing, but I'm not so sure hammering on the same nail is the right approach for town, if other town aren't paying any attention to it.

[davesaz]

Well, that was a lot to catch up to.

I saw Thor saying things about

how many times

Anen was talked about vs how many times PV was talked about. How many times is clearly a quantity question, and Muffin responded with a quantity answer. Thor then said it's stupid to just count the mentions. Muffin then said, quite reasonably I would observe, that it's not just the quantity of the mentions that Thor was concerned about, but the

quality

. I totally expected Thor to reply that quality of mention / conversation was exactly what he was talking about, but Thor's reply was about Muffin's question being stupid, the measurement isn't either quality or quantity.

Then after 2-3 pages, Thor comes back and says it is indeed about the quality of the conversation. Though he still refuses to use that word to describe it, the words he does use still boil down to quality.

My take away from this event are:
1. Thor wants to make up a reason on Shiro
2. Thor's response to Muffin was to try to discredit him.

VOTE: Thor

[davesaz]

@Axle: You don't need to repeat your same post over and over again, especially if you want my vote on your suspect.

[davesaz]

And if it's not my vote you want, or my vote off you at least (why you care when it's just one is another question of course), then who the heck are you trying to talk to? Is anyone paying attention to you at all?

[davesaz]

I don't think Muffin's interpretations were completely unfounded, as you say they are. "Degree of mention" does suggest a

qualitative

attribute rather than a

quantitative

one.

This.

But the point is not whether the original query was meant to be quantitative or qualitative, it is how the later conversation developed. Instead of jumping all over Muffin for days, Thor could have directly stated what he thought was wrong with Muffin's analysis. That is the town approach. The scum approach is to try to discredit Muffin, because if Muffin can't be discredited, then he proves Thor's case is wrong. Even better, Thor could make his own case, instead of trying to get others to make it for him. That has happened multiple times. Furthermore, his reaction to getting called on it is scummy too.

[davesaz]

@Slandaar: At the end of the 2nd quote, which "it" is actually wrong?

[davesaz]

Who do you currently think is scum?

[davesaz]

Who do you currently think is scum?

Who are you asking?

That was directed toward Thor, who had just posted, but could be answered by anyone.

[davesaz]

Guys, Muffin was town. Let's not ignore the implications of that. The things he was pointing out had 100% motivation. His stuff on Thor seems true.

Muffin being town=//=being right

Thor is repeatedly trying to catch others in misinterpretations of ambiguous things that he says. Then, when he does "catch" someone misinterpreting, Thor misrepresents that as intentional and scummy, when his own intentional ambiguity / opaque posting is causing the misunderstanding in the first place. Then, once he has his fish on a line, he steadfastly refuses to clear up the situation by explaining what he meant. He even goes to the extreme of extending the argument by introducing more unclear points as bait for further misunderstanding. I don't see town motivation in acting this way.

[davesaz]

Thor I don't just randomly decide I'm going to out reads but apparently thats a thing so okay

So the concern was that I was randomly offering my reads and opinions on people?
How odd of me.

TBH I had trouble parsing Flubber's "out reads".

This response is one that I can agree with, in part. Well founded reads are not sufficient to make someone town since scum can also do that, but I find unfounded reads to be scummy. Even if it's just gut, or tone, or total player contribution, I like to see an explanation.

[davesaz]

This Axle post

Spoiler: longish

I've only seen her act opaque with Thor because he deserves it.

I think perhaps you had better rethink that he "deserves it" is a reason for play. If everyone got what they "deserved" from other players the game would go straight down the toilet and scum would romp it in.

However even going with that.
(note in the following exchange there is NO thor at all. So Thor cant possibly deserve this as hes not there...)

Davesaz makes fairly(very) reasonable approach requesting information
and GM is about as opaque as it gets.

Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.

Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

Not from Gray, no. With Csareo it was pretty much cumulative answers to my questions, but I'll go back through tomorrow and pull some quotes for him while I'm doing the Fonz thing for Thor.

Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.

and no he didnt go through and get that stuff for dave...

Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.

Explain your reads. I don't listen to meta, I lynch the players who rely too much on it. Because only scum don't explain their reads.
Clear enough for you?

Yeahhhhhhh, "pretend" wasn't in there because I wanted you to explain; if I had I'd have asked you to.
"Pretend" was in there because I was trying not to get annoyed.
"Was" is in the previous sentence because now I

am

annoyed.

what he did get was annoyed.

There now you have seen her being opaque with davesaz.
Go back and read the exachnage in thread in complete context.
Did Dave deserve an answer?

Where as GM's claim

If you'd like an explanation of one of these and I haven't already given it, you're welcome to ask.

turned out to be fiction / good PR.
not genuine transparency.

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.

[davesaz]

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.

and what is your view on the Garmr wagon?

Don't see the reasons.

[davesaz]

@dave: I can't remember the last time you posted an original thought. This, too, is beginning to bother me.

Gee, I believe that the questions that Axle quoted were mine, and I was the first to ask them.

[davesaz]

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.

and what is your view on the Garmr wagon?

Don't see the reasons.

err. What do you mean?

not see == says you dont see any reasons for Garmr being scum posted in thread.
not see == you say the ones that are posted dont make sense to you.

Don't agree with.

[davesaz]

@GM: 3412 is adding original ideas to someone else's point. 3520 was also adding. I have no control over others seeing things and responding to them before I've even had a chance to read them.

[davesaz]

The unmodified and untrimmed post, as evidence.

5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.

@reinoe

First

Please show me where Thor portrayed it as scummy. (He didnt)

Second:

Here 3127 is an argument of Muffiins. (The flipped conf town player)

I claim the argument and the point it makes is crap. (not scummy, it cant be, he flipped town)

Please show how Muffins argument is in anyway good....

Note you didnt actually say it has to be good just not scummy. Merely being Not scummy is irrelevant to working out if the case holds water, so I am assuming you actually meant to say more than that.

The statement in question, with emphasis:
"First Please show me where Thor portrayed

it

as scummy.

(He didnt)

"

It

refers to Muffin's case. You specifically said that Thor did not portray Muffin's case as scummy. Nothing here about

when

. Your post

as written

should be interpreted as "At no time did Thor portray the case as scummy." Reinoe proved that Thor did think Muffin's case was scummy, before flip. That proof is

not

a misrep of you. At most, it is a misinterpretation of your statement, if you really meant that Thor didn't call Muffin's case scummy

after the flip

. But that interpretation is nonsense, because even the stupidest newbscum on the planet wouldn't say someone's case was scummy after they flipped town.

Maybe this is just passionate defense of your honor, but it puts you back on my radar. Especially considering you're reacting to it while not under any kind of duress.

[davesaz]

@dave Thre has been some loud noise, don't forget 3656 + 3657

I replied to that.

[davesaz]

he then claimed I "moved the goalposts to quantity"

He claimed I moved to "quality"

So Muffin claimed I had meant quantity and moved to quality.
You claim I started at quality and moved to quantity.

I am pretty sure one of you is insane.
Sort it out and get back to me.

You stated a case on Shiro.
Muffin asked what the basis was.
You said it was because Shiro was talking more about Anen but voted PereV.
Muffin showed the quantity was roughly even.
You said that number of mentions was immaterial, it was degree of mention.
Muffin asked you to show, with quotes of Shiro, what you meant.

You refused to do so, and continue to do so.

This is what is scummy. The bolded thing. Someone asks you to prove your point, and

you ask them to prove the counter point

.
You complain about others not carrying their case forward, but you're doing something even worse, not just failing to carry it but refusing to.
Not just creating miscommunication, but actively fostering it and refusing to fix the problem.
You did that with PereV, where the two of you were clearly using different definitions, and given a chance to find common ground holding steadfast to your point. (Which he did too, but you're still here...)

Is that clear enough? Do you get what the case is?

[davesaz]

Oh and I am saying this because a while ago u said the reason was how I worded it. And how it was made in a way to pass the responsibility to others. Something u did in a much bigger deegre by abstaining to vote.

I guess the reason changed though.

No, I just tried a different way of explaining it because clearly the other way was not understood. I would have voted Anen obviously if I needed to and as is evidenced I was around at deadline to vote if required.

Everything you have said you have said today not yesterday when the vote happened.

This is how things actually happened:

Shiro PV is town
Hrm Thor Why do you think PV wouldn't do this as scum?
I Iso'ed Anen a bunch now he is town.
Vote PV.

Why PV over Anen? no reason. No reason at all. It all goes back to passing the responsibility to Thor.

The usual reason that town vote a wagon is

needing to avoid a no-lynch

. Because the situations where no-lynch helps town are slim to none. Town often vote a less scummy player in order to avoid a no-lynch. For this reason, I do not use "strength of read" as the determining factor in interpreting someone else's vote, especially early game.

Note: I have not looked at whether "avoid no-lynch" is the reason in this case. I have not looked at placement. If someone feels these factors are actually relevant (cough Thor cough Slandaar cough) then

provide the evidence yourself

.

[davesaz]

That said, I'm going to avoid doing so for a long time because...I will...spend time...haha! I have wasted town's time by letting them focus on me being scum longer rather than dismissing the case asap and working a mislynch!
???

If you have the oft-stated "I'm Thor and nobody is going to lynch me haha" attitude, then doing this as scum looks pretty realistic to me. It is far easier to bait people into attacking you so you can twist their words to discredit them, or break the communication path by shifting your stance, than it is to manufacture a case which doesn't match the evidence.

Pedit: It is not unusual for town to avoid saying at the time that they are only voting to avoid a no-lynch. Precisely because the scum can latch onto that kind of statement to press a bogus case for a mislynch.

[davesaz]

I have not looked at whether "avoid no-lynch" is the reason in this case. I have not looked at placement. If someone feels these factors are actually relevant (cough Thor cough Slandaar cough) then provide the evidence yourself.

Read the game - Shiro later clarified that the vote was made to 'avoid no lynch' but did not do so initially.
Why are you even asking this?

I don't think I was asking anything. I was stating that I have not looked and do not plan to. If someone wants to prove a case, then prove it. With quotes and stuff, not with "read the thread" or "prove I'm wrong".

If I later have reason to think Shiro is scum, then I'll do the work to prove my case, but I don't see the need to disprove someone else's case on a 3rd party.

P-edit. Simplified example: You make a case. I say I don't understand, please provide your evidence. You say you don't understand why I don't understand. That's scummy -- town would provide the evidence right there. I go ahead and explain what I don't understand. You attack the reason I don't understand instead of explaining what you mean. That's even more scummy. And this goes on for days.

[davesaz]

@Dave - like, here's my conversation with Muffin as I perceived it at the time;

1. I state I find Shiro scummy for the vote switch between Pere and Anen considering how much he talked about each.
2. Muffin asks me to defend that stance.
3. I ask him to look at the posts and tell me if he feels it was a legit switch.
4. He says he counted the number of times each name was mentioned and Pere was mentioned more - and apparently didn't care that, blatantly, there was more Anen conversation than Pere conversation.
5. He then asks me to defend my stance again.
6. At this point he has looked at the posts (by his own admission) and chosen to use an odd metric (number of times a name was mentioned) instead of "oh - look, he posted a whole lot about Anen and almost nothing about Pere" which is the actual situation.
7. I point out that I find his metric dumb.
8. He responds by posting all the comments and noting the size of the posts - that said he is including in the Pere quotes huge sections not discussing Pere, which make them appear larger.
9. At this point I am starting to believe he isn't reading anything and is attacking me weirdly.
10. I point out that the post size compare he did is not legit due to the padding.
11. He claims I am moving the goalposts to quality and again is demanding that I back up my case.
12. I claim I never moved the goalposts and ask him how he came to the conclusion I did.
13. He claims I am moving the goalposts to quality and again is demanding that I back up my case.
14. Other people agree with him.
15. I point out what is obvious if you read the posts - that Shiro talked about Anen far more than Pere and did an unexplained vote move.
16. Everyone claims that my delay in pointing out something that is obvious to anyone who reads the posts is scummy and that muffin's name count thing was somehow a legit reaction because saying "amount they were discussed" is somehow a vague statement that apparently can mean "amount a given word appears in an Iso as opposed to amount of words spent on a given subject"

And here we are.
Where do you think my above narrative differs from reality?.

I think your narrative is either completely missing this post, or very badly misrepping it.

So, yeah. 3 posts seem to be mostly about pere, and 4 mostly about anen, including one that is sort of about both of them. Not to mention if you go through them chronologically there is a clear progression of reads. Do you want to try your pathetically-bad argument again?

In before Thor just restates the same argument ignoring the factual evidence that he is full of shit.
In before "yeah but it's the QUALITY of the mentions, on some subjective scale it's impossible to argue against because I just made it up"

Not only did Muffin adjust his analysis of the number of mentions according to your revised criteria, he also provided a specific analysis of the trend in the quoted posts. "Not to mention if you go through them chronologically there is a clear progression of reads."

You go on to attack him on the last sentence of the post. Which is pointing out, ahead of your reply to it, that the section that I pulled out proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Muffin

was

taking quality into account! And you continued to attack him for the number of mentions, after he had already shown that the actual content of the Shiro quotes disproves your case.

Also, you complain that the "filler" in the PereV posts was commentary about you. Which, as scum, you want to discredit.

[davesaz]

Just reminding everyone that I totally wasn't stalking Tier's ISO and now is the perfect time to realize he hasn't revived anyone and needs to be LaL'd.

I hope that this is a joke, just like the post you're referring to (during RVS).

[davesaz]

Perhaps I used an incorrect word or phrase there. You attacked Muffin for the word "quality", that's a fact. And you pointed out that the filler was about you, that's a fact. My focus is

your

posts and

your

responses to others' posts.

[davesaz]

Yes, that was stated poorly. The point that Muffin actually was using quality is immaterial.

Point 11, Muffin pointed out (in the post I quoted) that his argument was about quality BEFORE you could change the goal posts. Because he anticipated that you would change them. That is a fair assumption to make, since you were already trying to discredit him for legitimately trying to debunk the "amount of posting" argument.

You attacked him for anticipating that you would discredit his new point, and the way you actually attacked him was by discrediting the anticipation (i.e. the use of the word quality).

Or to put that another way, you made a bad case, someone debunked it, and instead of working to prove your case by adjusting to the debunk (town motive) you tried to discredit the debunker (scum motive).

BTW, that first sentence in this post. That is what town do when someone misunderstands them. They don't merely fling their hands and try to discredit the poor sod who chooses to interact with them.

[davesaz]

You also haven't explained why I was trying to discredit someone for town reading me - I also don't understand that.

You are pulling this one out of the air. I pointed out, that you pointed out, that the filler was about you. I did not note, or even care, if it is positive or negative filler. My point is that you brought attention to the filler being about you. I don't think you said (back then) that it was positive commentary, but that would not affect the point that you are commenting on things commenting on you, and making that the key point of it being filler. I still haven't looked at what kind of commentary and don't plan to. This is not scummy, it is merely a choice of how I spend my time.

To summarize, you say there is filler

about you

. I find the bolded part to be scummy regardless of the content of the filler.

[davesaz]

Well, yeah, except you flat out are saying things that don't make sense - whereas I am not. So it's kind of a conversation difference.

I would not expect you to admit what I'm saying is making sense, since to do that would be to agree that you're scummy.
And I'm not saying your posts don't make sense, or that they're wrong. I'm saying that they don't show town motivation.

However I will openly admit that I often write things that others have a hard time reading. Typically it is because I clearly see the logic and assume that others must also see it.

[davesaz]

Saying the posts contain filler

about you

, when talking to Muffin, is discrediting toward Muffin. Not Shiro.

I could see if you had said merely "hey those quoted posts contain more information". That would be reasonable.
I can't see any town motivation in the distinction about the content of the additional information, especially pointing out it's about you.

Also, why would someone agreeing with your case not say they think you're town? So even more so, in your reply to me, why is it relevant that the information is positive? How does that have any bearing on my accusation? Perhaps it matters to your case against Shiro, but it doesn't make a bit of difference toward what you accused Muffin of, or what you're accusing me of. And whether we disagree with your Shiro case is not indicative of our alignment.

[davesaz]

Our alignment that is...

[davesaz]

Thor is repeatedly trying to catch others in misinterpretations of ambiguous things that he says. Then, when he does "catch" someone misinterpreting, Thor misrepresents that as intentional and scummy, when his own intentional ambiguity / opaque posting is causing the misunderstanding in the first place. Then, once he has his fish on a line, he steadfastly refuses to clear up the situation by explaining what he meant. He even goes to the extreme of extending the argument by introducing more unclear points as bait for further misunderstanding. I don't see town motivation in acting this way.

This post?

Thor says something.
Someone disagrees with it.
Thor attacks the person who disagreed with him.

Disagreeing with things that others post is not scummy.
Attacking people who disagree with you is scummy, if you do it to the degree that Thor is doing it.

I don't see any way this position can be unclear. You're welcome to disagree with it.

[davesaz]

For folks of advancing years like me, it's more like whether we can remember the 1st sentence of an Axle post (or sequence of posts) by the time we reach the end.

Seriously though, I'd still rather see posts than not. And the gist is usually obtainable even if the nitty gritty details escape me later.

[davesaz]

I do not believe any part of the case on Garmr. How can I make that any plainer?

I don't have a town read on him either.

[davesaz]

I also would like to reiterate that you haven't backed up some of your other whoppers.
I believe this is because you are scum.

My role PM disagrees.
I am posting my

opinion

of how I see your posting. An

opinion

cannot be a lie.

But you have convinced me that my opinion should be that you're an asshole who I don't want to play with, vs. scum.

UNVOTE:

[davesaz]

Why are you bugging

me

about it? I'm the piece of shit who lies about all of his opinions anyway.

[davesaz]

And before anybody goes like "ooh, AtE". It's real folks. NOBODY calls me a liar. Even when I'm scum, I do my best not to lie. I'm WRONG a lot, but I avoid LYING at all costs.

[davesaz]

Tone. You've done the same thing to at least three people (Pere, Muffin, me). Do you act this way all the time?

It's not the type of thing you can really prove. Deep down it still screams scum, but don't think I've had a successful scum catch on this site yet. The one I actually did have pegged was BBT in the newbie, and he got away with it. I don't have legendary status here so even if I'm right nobody is likely to believe me.

But I can say with certainty that between the things that you're doing, and Axle's pages of walls a day, and GM's sensei routine, I don't have a clue who is scum. At least one with a postcount less than mine, probably.

Pedit - is suggesting scanning my posts for a phrase a mention of events in an ongoing game? I know that I clearly can't post a link... I will refrain from saying anything further. And TBH it could be in one of two games, one of which is finished...

[davesaz]

EBWOP: There should be at least one scum with postcount less than mine.

[davesaz]

@Dave
So id still like a response to what you dont like about 3799

Also given recent events, regarding truthiness, I hate to say this but

This post seems to be factually inconsistent with

For folks of advancing years like me, it's more like whether we can remember the 1st sentence of an Axle post (or sequence of posts) by the time we reach the end.

this post

I do not believe any part of the case on Garmr. How can I make that any plainer?

I don't have a town read on him either.

for you to disagree with every part of the case, you would have to have read every part of the case,
and remember it

So have you read all of the case and remembered more than the first sentence of an Axle post?
if so what was the pro town point of 3784
or how do you know the case is wrong if you cant remember it?

Ah, an easy question. 3784 is a joke about middle aged people, with a second goal of hopefully prodding you to cut down the size to something manageable. (the town motivation is in lowering the volume slightly, and I'm not the only person who suggested that)

Not liking the case is driven more by not liking the posting style. I have a hard time with trusting the 1000 word essays. (possibly an exaggeration, but in which direction ) And I am mistrustful of the really heavily attacking style. Kinda the same reaction I have to Thor's posting, though it is being used in a different way. In academia I'd call it "proof by intimidation". I played with someone on another site who constantly got away as scum by diving into every game as uber town, usually having both the most, and the longest and most aggressive posts. It got to the point that the best scumtell on him was that he didn't get NK'd on N1. He stopped playing after he started getting PL'd every time he lived to D2, and mafia caught on and stopped NKing him..

I think I

might

have said before in this game that I'd pay more attention to that set of evidence if it wasn't you driving it. It's certainly not a new thought on my part, just don't know if I've been open enough with my feelings on the matter to say it.

I don't remember, is Garmr replacing out? If so, is it squicky to you to lynch a position which is pending a replace?

[davesaz]

IZ's View of the game:

Votecount 1.16

[7]

PeregrineV:

Egg

,

Thor665, Scripten

, davesaz,

The Fonz, Boonskiies,

T S O

[4]

Aneninen:

WBOCampfire1104, Muffin, TierShift, Garmr
[4]

Thor665:

goodmorning, Nero Cain, flubbernugget, Izariael
[1]

goodmorning:

Slandaar
[1]

Scripten:

PeregrineV
[1]

Slandaar:

Aneninen
[1]

T S O:

AxleGreaser
[1]

WBOCampire1104:

Grayfoxxxx


[1]

Not Voting:

hephaestus

Red = Scum. Blue also applies to all Red's.
Blue = suspicious vote on PV.

It's just not very believable.

Let me see if I've got this straight. Are you saying that Iz has not scumread a single person who is off the PereV wagon at that point in time? Or did you just fail to trim the other lines from the VC?

First of all, the context of our discussion earlier involved votes on the Pere wagon, not all voting overall, so I don't find this representative of my current view of the game.

Second, if you're going to attempt to call my reads un-natural because of a perceived block, at least use the final vote count rather than using one that you think illustrates your point best.

Votecount 1.FINAL

[12]PeregrineV:

Egg

,

Thor665, Scripten, The Fonz,

davesaz, TierShift, Shiro,

T S O

, Garmr, AxleGreaser, Muffin,

Boonskiies

-- LYNCH

The characteristic we are talking about is people who voted PV with actual reasons

No comment one way or the other on whether that was what you were talking about, but I'd question whether it is a good way to restrict the data. Scum who hop on late with little or no reason have a built-in alibi of town motivation to ensure a lynch of some kind. You can't scum hunt on late hops alone, but it gives a straightforward way of cutting down the suspect pool to a manageable size, for deeper investigation. And I don't necessarily buy the notion that early votes with reasons is the best pool, other than to scan for bogus reasons. I tend to look for off wagon with reasons for that part of the suspect pool.

Which is why we ignore half the votes on the wagon and use a previous VC.

That is not reflective of how *I* evaluated the votes, and therefore fails to adequately represent my views to do so.

For example, it was not Boonskiies first Pere vote that I scumread, but rather his second where he went several posts prod dodging then hammered Pere with a naked vote. I found it unsavory.

I'd lean disagreement here, unless there was prior evidence that Iz was evaluating using the whole vote. If there were such evidence, then I'd lean toward thinking the trimmed vote is a misrep.

The latter votes have minimal reasoning to none so there is very little assessment to be made on whether they were scummy or not. Basically what looks fake is; your scumreads are the people who voted PV with reasoning before deadline.

And yet you're scumreading Shiro's vote, while saying that her vote is irrelevant to my observations of the Pere wagon. Clearly, the amount of reasoning attached to a vote does not determine whether a vote can be evaluated.

Looks like a contradiction on Slandaar's part.

In terms on looking at the votes I am saying as scum it is easy to scumread the people who put the most reasoning into their votes on the mislynch and ignore the other people who jumped on later. Shiro's vote complies with the latter. Looking at the people who posted reasoning we get the VC I posted obviously you might be able to argue a name onto it but the point still stands.

Ah, so you are arguing that scum could scum read people with reasoning votes, but scum can't scum read people with no reasoning votes?
I don't see how the 2nd half of that follows. While it would be difficult to make a case solely on a no reasoning vote due to the WIFOM resulting from "town needs a lynch", you're making a leap that the no-reasoning vote is the only evidence the hypothetical scum can use to make a case.

[davesaz]

Catching-up.

Garmr, 360: This was just WTF. What Tha Fukk.

Garmr, 415 – that vote, uhhh. If you have told that you had voted for Boonskiies because of lurking and producing nothing I would have believed it. But, what kind of reasoning was that?


some reads.

Garmr is FoS-Scum.

Having trimmed down Aneninen's 418 to a manageable size, I see that there

is

a Garmr scum read there. Doesn't this contradict Axle's statement that Garmr thought Anen was scum reading him but really wasn't?

@anenien
What's wrong with my reasoning?

Boonskies was the fact he needed to clarify that those were rvs votes.¹ No one really asked him for it and it seems odd as town why you feel the need to say hey this is a rvs vote. He really hasn't done anything to strike me as town either.² Also he dodged the csereo subject and didn't give his thoughts on it which made me feel uncomfortable.³

(1) Boonskiies was just being Boonskiies. I can tell you I've seen that. Even if you haven't come across with him, why is it a scumtell?
(2) So? Hasn't done anything to strike me as town either? This description fits quite a lot of people here.
(3) He has dodged almost every subject so far.

I'm not saying that he's town. He may be scum. But, NOT because of your reasons, Gammrnmhrm.

1.I'm not the only one who thought that was scummy (thor did) and how is that even a defence boon skies is boon skies. Like i said why would town need to clarify themselves.

2.Well if the only thing that strikes me are scum points thenwhy should I think his town?

3.You just made my point even stronger. Dodging subjects is town how?

Is there something abnormal about this interaction? Doesn't look like Garmr has backed down on Boon, and it does look like Anen is trying to get him to back down. Doesn't this contradict Axle's version of this event?

Side note: At this point in time I thought that Anen's mispronouncing of people's names was scummy, and intended to anger them into bad reactions.

[davesaz]

Next Axle point, Garmr dropped Boon and switched to Anen because Anen made him drop boon.

Starting from the actual event...

If you don't like Aneninen, try using your vote. I hear all the cool kids are doing it these days.

Well I would, but my vote's on my top scumread atm.

That's fair enough. I was talking more to Garmr.

I might talk to you about your Anen read a bit when I have time - that's not now. Probs tomorrow.

Boon skies is my top scumread but Aneninen is a close 2nd. I would really prefer if you jumped on the boon wagon with me.

So Garmr already had a scum read on Anen. There has been almost no posting in Garmr's ISO in between the posts I just quoted and this one. Not a very big leap of faith that Garmr's scum read on Anen came from those posts.

Don't push me to claim, please.

I'm almost positive it's multiball. My role basically implies it.

Kinda annoyed that someone would passively role claim day 1 with only one vote on them. If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum. Unless your just saying that to get some town cred but that will sort itself out in time.

UNVOTE: boon

VOTE: Aneninen

Boon claims, Garmr switches. Null at best, this is certainly not a scumtell and I could even see scum staying on and trying to get Boon to clarify since it is in scum's interest to figure out the role (unless someone calls them on it, in which case they say they're just checking for BS and drop the vote).

Garmmrn, 646 – I'll ignore your vote until you provide any reasons for it. I don't think you're surprised now.

Maybe you should check my iso and you would find the reasons because I did put some of my thoughts out on you.

Anen asked why the vote, Garmr says it should be obvious why.

@Garmmr: I've already checked but apart from the part that "I'm the close 2nd" and the part where I questioned your Boonskiies vote I have found nothing.

Tomorrow I may have more time. I'll check the posts between Thor and PeregrineV again because it's possible that I missed things because of the sheer size and amount of the posts.

finally I don't like the way Aneninen handled the way I pushed on boonskies by trying to disprove my points yet being unable to, ending up saying I don't agree with you. It just felt like a failed chainsaw attempt for boon.

Basically What I'm saying is you tried to defend against my points with out having a valid counter points in fact you actually strengthened my points in some parts and that comes off as scummy.

Ah, but he did give a reason in those in-between posts (I only skimmed and don't feel like going back to add the quote).

It doesn't look like Anen "made" Garmr switch. But I must say that if I were in Garmr's shoes at this point I might think that Anen "facilitated" the switch by becoming a better target than Boon. A contradiction in Axle's theory? Depends on what Garmr said about it later.

[davesaz]

@Thor: I can't quote/link (rules), but I have less than 600 posts here and only a fraction of those would meet the rules criteria for not being able to quote. To make it even easier, you can search for 'literal truth'.

[davesaz]

Who?

[davesaz]

Heph lurked in recently completed Open 570 and was mafia.
One game does not a pattern make, but I had been thinking along those lines and as Thor pointed out my vote is not currently in use.
This is as good a use as any, while I take deeper looks to see which of the other wagons may be more deserving.

VOTE: beastcharizard

[davesaz]

Proof by intimidation is reaching a difficult point, waving your hands, saying some intimidating words, followed by QED. I left that world behind long ago but am still fond of the term. It does not mean you intimidate me.

The age joke was a

joke

.

Your point was that Garmr said

Anen

dropped Boon? Garmr typoed that post the way I'm reading it. At a minimum something is wrong textually. It doesn't parse...

[davesaz]

Proof by intimidation is reaching a difficult point, waving your hands, saying some intimidating words, followed by QED. I left that world behind long ago but am still fond of the term. It does not mean you intimidate me.

The age joke was a

joke

.

I fully get the joke about age, I make it regularly.

The other part of the joke, was charcterising my posts as entirely forgettable, I imagine due to lacking in substance or direction or something.

The other part of the joke was characterizing your posts as

long

.
Did you understand what the corrected definition of

proof by intimidation

means?

Your point was that Garmr said

Anen

dropped Boon? Garmr

typoed

that post the way I'm reading it. At a minimum something is wrong textually. It doesn't parse...

please state which post you are claiming garmr

typoed

. And what you claim he meant to say.

It's the same post you quote below. I'm claiming I don't know what he really meant to say because it does not parse correctly as English, or at least there is not a single unambiguous parse for it.

fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the

he stopped my pressure on boon

at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand. I believe he had to try and discredit because I don't think he was expecting to be questioned on 418 becuase he just labeled me as scum because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game, if he is going to label me as scum for my reasoning he should be able to show why it's flawed and then explain the scum motivation behind my post.

he made the point I am discussing several times.

I assume you're referring strictly to the part in a different color. Let's look at the two sentences.

What I found scummy was I didn't like the

he stopped my pressure on boon

at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand.

Is Garmr trying to quote Anen? Is the part you marked with a color a quote? So Anen said "he (Garmr) stopped my (Anen) pressure on boon"? Or is Garmr missing a word between "like" and "the", such as "I didn't like the way he (Anen) stopped my (Garmr) pressure on boon"?

From the text alone

, it is not clear which of these meanings is the correct one. He and my are both pronouns without referents, as written. It is not even clear to me how you are interpreting it. So instead of quoting it yet again, and coloring a phrase pink, tell me in your own words what you think the whole sentence means. Not just the hilighted part, but the whole sentence. With inserted referents for all the pronouns.

Now, let's take the 2nd sentence. Which case do you think Garmr is referring to here? Garmr's case on Boon? At this point in time, Garmr is not pursuing a case on Boon, and hasn't for about 1000 posts IIRC. Is Garmr pursuing a case on Anen at that time? Could Garmr be complaining about Anen's efforts to defend against Garmr? If that is a possible meaning for this sentence, then it is the more likely meaning, in my opinion.

[davesaz]

@Axle: With a replacement in the slot, is it even fruitful to argue this? We're never going to get a clarification from Garmr anyway. If the whole point is to determine my alignment by seeing what I'll do to defend that slot, what you're going to get is likely to be some disagreement about how the posts should be read, and questions about your interpretations of the posts. I don't think comparing our relative language and logic skills is a good use of time or alignment indicative.

[davesaz]

@Axle: With a replacement in the slot, is it even fruitful to argue this? We're never going to get a clarification from Garmr anyway. If the whole point is to determine my alignment by seeing what I'll do to defend that slot, what you're going to get is likely to be some disagreement about how the posts should be read, and questions about your interpretations of the posts. I don't think comparing our relative language and logic skills is a good use of time or alignment indicative.

[davesaz]

Answer the questions I asked. Because I don't think you're trying to figure out the Garmr slot alignment, you're trying to paint it as scum regardless of the truth.

I don't think 2441 has the meaning you are assigning to it. 418 happened before Garmer changed his mind on Boon. How many times do I have to point this out?

[davesaz]

Not to mention, Garmr isn't even a player in this game any more. Once again, how is it better to continue to read Garmr than it is to see what the new player does?

[davesaz]

I should rephrase that, at the time Aneninen did his thing with boon. Boon didn't even hint at a power role this comes after Annienens chainsaw defense of him. Also he admits he doesn't even think Boon is town he just wants to discredit my points which he didn't. To me that's a scum that doesn't want to make his read look bad but backfires.

Like, if you're trying to read Garmr, and not paint him only as scum, leaving out this post is very misreppy.
Garmr is talking at this later point about the earlier timeframe, before Boon claimed. Garmr thinks Anen was discrediting his points on Boon.

You disagree with Garmr's point on Anen. I get that. Anen flipped town and Garmr was wrong, I get that too. But it is not the contradiction you're painting it to be. And I don't see scum pushing this kind of case. I think it's a town case.

To use a phrase I've seen before -- Garmr might be scum, but he's not scum for the reason that you are focusing on.

Do you have another reason?

[davesaz]

Is it your belief that all contradictions are scummy? Or do you think it's possible for town to be just plain wrong about something?

Is the contradiction the whole case?

[davesaz]

And if I'm understanding right, the contradiction is:

Anen's points do not discredit. Not discrediting implies not stopping pressure. Pressure stopped.

Not A -> Not B
Not A = True
B = True (is a contradiction, should be Not B)

Back into English, this assumes the only reason pressure might be stopped is because the points are discredited.
If the pressure is stopped because the points are attempted to be discredited (regardless of whether the discredit works) we get.

Attempt to discredit -> stop pressure
Attempt = True
Stopped = True (no contradiction)

Again back into English, is stopping one's pressure on a case, when a 3rd party tries to discredit it (whether successful or not) alignment indicative.

If you're town, pushing a case that someone is trying to interfere with, and you have to drop it later for some reason, is it reasonable to still think the interference could be scummy. As town I would think it is scummy for someone to try to discredit my case. As town I would expect other town to point out errors in the case. I wouldn't make the logic error of assigning blame of stopping the case to the interference, but someone else might.

If you're scum, pushing a speculative case on a hapless townie, and someone tries to interfere. You later have to drop the case for a different reason. Do you take up arms against the player who interfered, or go after some other easier target. What's the scum motivation for focusing attention on your own failed case? Moreso, what's the scum motivation for keeping it up after someone asks you about it?

[davesaz]

Further explanation: B=true is a contradiction only if Not A -> Not B is the only predicate which sets the value of B.
For those not into logic, move along.

[davesaz]

So Garmr felt that Anen did NOT successfully refute his points, but also felt that his interjection had affected the dynamic of his interaction with Boon in a manner that was either negative or counter-productive to what he was aiming to accomplish.

Garmer feld that Anen's intervention destroyed his ability to continue to pursue the interaction with Boon. The points made by Anen were wrong, but the interaction stopped the pressure.

It is perfectly reasonable to think that scum might stop pressuring someone when interrupted.

It is not reasonable to think that scum would continue to argue the same failing point forever. There is no way scum is going to do that. Scum would

stop and completely drop the subject

, and probably not even say why they were stopped.

[davesaz]

can you guys explain to me what you're arguing about? Should Boonskies be getting more pressure or is that relevant?

Clifnotes edition, Dave version:

Garmr was hunting Boonskies for acting VI. Anen jumped in with, among other things, "Boonskies is Boonskies". Garmr switched targets to Anen, saying that the "refutation of his points" was not really a refutation and that Anen was responsible for Garmr stopping his pressure on Boon. Boon later soft claimed a power role.

Axle is hunting Garmr for a contradiction between "Anen stopped my pressure on Boon" and "Anen's argument did not refute mine".

Anen was NK'd and flipped VT.

[davesaz]

I think the onus is on the prosecution to provide the next evidence. Are there other points against Garmr / Josh that do not hinge on the contradiction?
Maybe you should do the old man (and others) a favor by stating them down here at the tail of the thread where everyone is looking...

[davesaz]

Maybe this attitude

I find that scum players, especially the not so good ones, focus on finding scummy things someone did then ride that like there is no tomorrow.

is the root of the current discussion.

Who is doing that thing up there right now, riding a single (marginally) scummy thing that someone did?

[davesaz]

I think my question of why axle was encouraging a gamestate stall was more important.

Maybe this old question bears additional thought.

[davesaz]

Would you consider the question to again be relevant? Is Axle currently gumming up the works?
What do you see as our path to a lynch today?

[davesaz]

So Garmr felt that Anen did NOT successfully refute his points, but also felt that his interjection had affected the dynamic of his interaction with Boon in a manner that was either negative or counter-productive to what he was aiming to accomplish.

Garmer feld that Anen's intervention destroyed his ability to continue to pursue the interaction with Boon. The points made by Anen were wrong, but the interaction stopped the pressure.

It is perfectly reasonable to think that scum might stop pressuring someone when interrupted.

It is not reasonable to think that scum would continue to argue the same failing point forever. There is no way scum is going to do that. Scum would

stop and completely drop the subject

, and probably not even say why they were stopped.

Are you now arguing Garmr is scum?

Garmr did drop the point, he was trying to make against Boon.
He dropped even though he claimed Anen made the points stronger.

Garmr was looking for some nice quiet place to park his vote, and then not really push the lynch.

No, I'm arguing there is no possible way Garmr could be scum, because of the continued discussion of Anen's effect on the Boon push. Based on my opinions about how scum play.

Scum would stop talking about Boon. Period. Scum Garmr would never again mention his push on Boon. Not even to defend against someone attacking him for it. The correct scum play is to say "what are you talking about, I dropped that ages ago when Boon soft claimed". The correct scum play is to say "well, Anen flipped town so there is no point in further discussion about whether that was a chainsaw". No, arguing with you about it shows explicit town motivation. Garmr was using Anen to argue that you, as scum, are beating the dead horse of Anen's influence on Garmr's Boon push.

You have been doing other things that are towny. I'd like to believe that you honestly think that Garmr's slot is scum. But the scum tell you claim is the reason you're scum reading Garmr, "riding a little scummy thing into the next week", happens to be the exact thing you're doing yourself! And it's an incredibly weak scum tell, at best. I would never use that, and being tunneled over using it, as the sole evidence to push a case.

In the meantime, we have Thor hard claiming a PR. It's either a truly ballsy gambit, or he really is a PR pointing out that we're being stupid tunneling on this Garmr thing instead of looking for something a bit more meaningful to lynch.

[davesaz]

I have tried hard to push wagons thank you Shiro. Defending the leading wagon's who are town is a big part of moving votes onto the wagon you want.

Can you quote yourself pushing a wagon? Even more so, can you quote yourself trying hard?

[davesaz]

I'd be in favor of a TSO lynch as an alternative, since we're having so much trouble getting any of the existing wagons going. TSO failing to provide an Anen case D1 is the kind of behavior I'd expect from scum who discover their case holds no water. And a NK makes perfect sense as a way to silence that subject forever. Lurking / soft replacing out also fits the profile of almost caught scum who want to lay low.

[davesaz]

So you town read Beast, GM, and Thor?

Null-insufficient data, Weak Town, Strong "needs more cooking time could be scum leading town but want to believe it's just town"

That Thor read is pretty much the same as my BBT read in the newbie game. I have a really bad weak spot on players who are borderline "Strong Town" vs "Scum Leading Town". Such a slot should be a dead 50%, but I'm wrong something like 90% of the time when I go it alone on deciding. If a trusted town player helps me with the coin flip I'm more like 70% accurate, regardless of whether the town player is with me or not. Just pointing out the evidence that I miss is sufficient. If I could have trusted Thor's vote on BBT to start the last day in that game, we'd have nailed him.

[davesaz]

Regarding Beast, I don't think we have time to force enough interaction to accurately read. Lynching TSO would give us the ability to associate either way the flip goes, while Beast gives us next to nothing on associations. IIRC...

[davesaz]

I actively tried to push it, and Thor promptly tied me up in knots. There is definitely a tone thing there, but there is a fine line between scum playing the town like a fiddle, and a strong townie casting nets and gutting the fish who wander into them.

[davesaz]

Can you refresh the case against GM? I want to see what you point out and compare that to other material where alignment is known.

[davesaz]

I just looked at Slandaar. He's pretty liberal with town reads, but doesn't seem to actually back them with any reasons. I think I'm seeing some pushes, but they are always on wagons which aren't going to go anywhere. And I see a lot of defending the leading wagon, whatever it might be at the time.

Scum analysis: A scum player might do the defend the mislynch thing to establish cred and then repeat it on a partner. The naked town reads could be a mixture of partners and legit townies, so when the legit ones flip he gets cred. I'd say this is a very risky strategy if it turns out to be MB, but good scum play if it is not. Risk averse scum would avoid things like the guardian angel thing, but gambity players might attempt it.

Town analysis: A town player might defend strong town reads this way. I have seen others say that it is bad to explain town reads because it tells scum what to do to get by you. Town might feel more comfortable with the light hearted guardian angel thing. I don't remember seeing as much pressuring of targets who are out of the limelight as I'd like to see from town. See my poke at Egg (accompanied by slash at Thor) for a (fairly weak and unsuccessful) example. I wouldn't call his pushes on "topical" players especially hard.

Slandaar could be scum if he's a gambit style player. If he tends to be risk averse then it's more likely he's town but it would be a weak read.

[davesaz]

Can you refresh the case against GM? I want to see what you point out and compare that to other material where alignment is known.

For me, I just find the slot useless and a better lynch than me due to useless.
That's also my case on Beast.

Really? And you expect anyone to vote that?
Tell me again, what are your contributions other than yelling very loudly?
I mean, is it really that much of a distinction that people listen? Last I heard by way of vote count, fewer were listening to you than GM.

[davesaz]

<Dave thinks some in the shower>
CLICK!


VOTE: goodmorning

Reason: Gamestate ephiphany

Thor, how certain are you that GM is the right player to wagon at this time? Just a sniff, rock solid, somewhere in between?

[davesaz]

No, really.

[davesaz]

Thor, as a result of my epiphany, I was

really

expecting a different kind of answer.
If you really have no confidence that GM is scum, then kindly pick someone who is actually scummy instead of useless.
Staying on a no confidence and no reason wagon leads me to believe your "power role" is non-town. That impression can still be fixed.

[davesaz]

Dave - since he ducked backing up the AtE.

Do you have reasons in the thread?
(Someone was scum reading him earlier i forget who?)

or we need to fly with my reasons?
My reasons would be thin as I spent some time this game town reading dave.

perhaps if i went back and reread his whole game with my recent understanding of his technical/mafia capabilities,

3936 is valid as far as it goes. 3937 is a concise to the point summary.
(these set a benchmark for the (literary and mafia)skills Dave ought be able to use if he is trying)

yet

3896 is padded at the end with pointless trivial pedantic questions ,that he then demands answers too 3910 and then does nothing with the obvious answers in 3914
then he runs away into mind numbing propositional calculus 3920 for no functional purpose blah blah....
and then at the end of it...all tries to accuse me of the mess he made (3942(but distancing self) 3944). (seemingly deliberately)

That doesn't look good to me, but it would look whole lot worse if garmr flips scum.
How bad it would look if Garmr flips scum has me wondering where the game is at.
For that maatter how is dave so sure garmr is town. 3957 That seems like very black and white view of how scum will definitely play.

Are there so many linkages to a scum!garmr flip that scum is going all in? 3957 or ....
Hmmm.

Also those technical/mafia capabilities (above) seem in my mind quite at odds with he kind of player that gets confused by mere technicalities

Spoiler: such as

I'm claiming I don't know what he really meant to say because it does not parse correctly as English, or at least there is not a single unambiguous parse for it.

yes it true that computer program would get confused by it, but human with skill, actually trying should find it clear what garmr meant.
To get bogged down in the technical imperfections, smells of a ploy.
similarly this, does not feel like a genuine misunderstanding of Garmrs post.

Which case do you think Garmr is referring to here? Garmr's case on Boon? At this point in time, Garmr is not pursuing a case on Boon, and hasn't for about 1000 posts IIRC.

Yo, dimwit!

Ever think I might be reading

YOU

with all of this?
I was trying to figure out if I needed to go all-out on getting

YOU

lynched for making a case with such horrible logic.
The reason I don't give your case weight is the way you are making it and the way you are pursuing it.
So much confirmation bias, so much unwillingness to accept that someone might make a mistake and not be scummy.

The Garmr slot might be scum, but not for the reason you are pushing. I am not town reading that slot. I might even be scum reading that slot.
But I'm not going to vote for it based on

your case

.

[davesaz]

Thor, as a result of my epiphany, I was

really

expecting a different kind of answer.
If you really have no confidence that GM is scum, then kindly pick someone who is actually scummy instead of useless.
Staying on a no confidence and no reason wagon leads me to believe your "power role" is non-town. That impression can still be fixed.

Are you saying your gm vote was a reaction test? Or was it genuine?

A claimed unspecified power role is pushing and voting a wagon, but admitting the only reason he's doing it is because the player is "useless".
Consider reasons someone looking at this might want to know if the read is genuine or not.
Prove to the PR I'm willing to vote my town read, but ask for some kind of confidence factor.
Consider not really wanting to vote for one's town read, solely on the word of a PR.
Is the PR confident that this is the right move? Apparently not.
Is the PR willing to preserve my town read and go for someone we both feel is a better lynch? Apparently not.

Mafia roles are also power roles. I guess our PR isn't town.

VOTE: Thor

[davesaz]

@mod, I voted Thor in the post immediately before the VC, which was about an hour before.

Fixed

[davesaz]

Look at that shotgun vote. We have to move 4 votes to make Thor happen, or 6 to make Josh happen.
For me to vote Josh, someone other than Axle needs to convince me the slot is scummy, without using the "Garmr contradiction" case as evidence.

Thor has basically been begging to be put at L-1 so he can feel justified in full claiming. I don't get the mentality on this site that says it's scummy to claim earlier than L-1, but whatever. Though there is a double standard on that, few people seem to think that Boon's claim is terribly scummy. Though that is possibly just due to how silly the claim is.

The two votes on Flubber should be in play. One of those players could certainly try to make a case there. I've seen some town in Flubber's posting, but it is certainly not stellar. Nero and Fonz, are your votes on Flubber mainly just to protest the top wagons?

TSO's vote may not be available to us, depending on whether he's really still here or not.

Tier, whatever you're looking at me for, pay more attention to the overall picture and less on minutae. I'm far from perfect, but I'm doing mostly stuff that would be crazy for scum to do.

Boon, Shiro, Josh, beastcharizard: The single votes, or non-votes, are wasted where they are.

@ALL: What are we going to do if Thor claims something we can't/shouldn't lynch?

[davesaz]

No, I'm arguing there is no possible way Garmr could be scum,

because of the continued discussion of Anen's effect on the Boon push. Based on my opinions about how scum play.

Scum would stop talking about Boon. Period. Scum Garmr would never again mention his push on Boon. Not even to defend against someone attacking him for it. The correct scum play is to say "what are you talking about, I dropped that ages ago when Boon soft claimed". The correct scum play is to say "well, Anen flipped town so there is no point in further discussion about whether that was a chainsaw". No, arguing with you about it shows explicit town motivation. Garmr was using Anen to argue that you, as scum, are beating the dead horse of Anen's influence on Garmr's Boon push.

The Garmr slot might be scum,

but not for the reason you are pushing.

I am not town reading that slot. I might even be scum reading that slot.

For me to vote Josh, someone other than Axle needs to convince me the slot is scummy,

without using the "Garmr contradiction" case as evidence.

Hey dave your position on the Garmr slot lately seems rather a lot inconsistent.
Explain this.

Especially who persuaded you to change your mind so fast?

and why.

Highlight the 2nd half of the first sentence of mine that you quoted, and you place the weight in the correct place. The comma doesn't belong which is a mistake I sometimes make in my technical writing as well. Sadly, I can't quote that for reference.

No, I'm arguing there is no possible way Garmr could be scum

because of the continued discussion of Anen's effect on the Boon push

. Based on my opinions about how scum play.

[davesaz]

The way I'm reading this now, Thor, Axle, and Slandaar are all scum.

Thor has been "pushing" wagons on no evidence at all, and attacking anyone who questioned him about it.
Axle has been grinding at Garmr/Josh, and trying to refute people by discrediting them.
Slandaar has been WKing without doing real scum hunting. The Shiro "point a day" thing was nothing more than a way to appear busy without actually scum hunting.

Furthermore, Thor saw Boon claim a PR and get away scot free, so he did it too. At the time I thought that this, along with the steadfast GM vote for "uselessness" was crumbing cop or tracker. But then Thor refused to answer when I asked him about confidence. It's a fake claim, and we should lynch it.

Thor chose me as the one for his new OMGUS because I'm the only one of this sorry lot who is actually thinking about the cases that other people make and seeing the BS.

[davesaz]

TL/DR: It feels like by having Thor and GM wagons, it's just the people who disliked the PV push yesterday and the Thor push today scapegoating the most vocal/passionate advocate of each wagon, when I think it's more likely scum are more somewhere less prominent in either case. Flubber's 'Blame Thor AND Peregrine for NOISE' stuff feels scum-motivated.

Though there hasn't been a GM wagon, really. The biggest it got was...three? It definitely made two.
Does that affect this read?

Yeah, this is me falling for Thor's "my wagon on GM" and actually thinking it's a

wagon

. Evidently I forgot that Thor will freely use

wagon

and

wagon

interchangeably.

I don't make myself a new copy of the current VC every time I post.
I do tend to believe that when someone says he's "pushing a

wagon

" that there is actually a

wagon

to push.
That is not scum. My role PM says town. If you feel you can get a lynch on me, then by all means make the game easier for scum with a mislynch.

[davesaz]

For me to vote Josh, someone other than Axle needs to convince me the slot is scummy, without using the "Garmr contradiction" case as evidence.

Here my two posts about him.
3630
3624

Are they helping ?

3630 rehashes one of Axle's points, and a couple of really thin "contradictions" which Thor (the king of seeing contradictions) doesn't even agree with.

My reading of the events summarized in 3624 is: Frustrated by Axle, can't get him to go away, tries to start a counter, realizes it won't work, gets pissed off beyond redemption, leaves. I don't see it as alignment indicative.

[davesaz]

How can you not give the slot to someone else? There is some reason you can't replace out?

[davesaz]

For me to vote Josh, someone other than Axle needs to convince me the slot is scummy, without using the "Garmr contradiction" case as evidence.

Here my two posts about him.
3630
3624

Are they helping ?

3630 rehashes one of Axle's points, and a couple of really thin "contradictions" which Thor (the king of seeing contradictions) doesn't even agree with.

My reading of the events summarized in 3624 is: Frustrated by Axle, can't get him to go away, tries to start a counter, realizes it won't work, gets pissed off beyond redemption, leaves. I don't see it as alignment indicative.

Thor does agree that it is untowny thought process

How is that not alignment indicative ? He realised he entered a situation he couldn't talk himself out of so he replaced out in hopes that people will leave the slot alone. It is kinda frustrating that it has worked wonders

There are reasons a town player might think it is better for town to replace out in that position. It's not an exclusively scum thing to do.

[davesaz]

Does anyone know Thor's meta to know well enough to say whether his drop in interest / reduced push is alignment indicative?

[davesaz]

Vote Thor? As I don't think any other wagon can grow legs, and this isn't one of the extremely rare situations where a NL is good for town.

[davesaz]

I get the feeling that Axle uses a triple standard for contradictions.
A really hair trigger one for people he's attacking, a who cares one for people he finds townish, and a gosh I never did that for ones he's accused of.

[davesaz]

I get the feeling that Axle uses a triple standard for contradictions.
A really hair trigger one for people he's attacking, a who cares one for people he finds townish, and a gosh I never did that for ones he's accused of.

Dave are you voting one of the candidates for lynch today? or are you rebelling against the system because you are a cool kid?

I'm voting Thor.

[davesaz]

Not planning to do that.

[davesaz]

I believe that Thor's claim is fake, and he's scum.

[davesaz]

I believe that Thor's claim is fake, and he's scum.

I would point out in my meta that I've never fakeclaimed a role except to claim VT.
So, the claim is real - the actual debate is whether I am a scum JKer or a town one.

What's your case on me again?
I know it's none of the earlier stuff because you already admitted to basically making up the value of half of that. So what is the current case? I honestly have no idea.

"Have never" as a meta claim is a handy defense the first time you do someting.
"Would never", which you're not saying here, would be trust tell territory for me.
Therefore it proves nothing about this claim.

Your overall behavior looks like scum motivation to me. Taking up the majority of D1 with the multiball argument. The sequence of attacks on people who question your attacks on other people. The linguistic technicalities -- whether you scum read Muffin for using, or not using, or talking about "quality" (whatever the detail is) the attack

was

connected to the word "quality". And when someone jumps you for that technicality, that person is scum too.

I think you're the type of player who could plan to get yourself run up to L-1 so that you can make a fake claim and then skate for the rest of the game. That should be flattering, since not many people would have the cajones to try to pull it off. But I believe that's exactly what you're doing.

You talked a non-trivial amount about "the GM wagon I'm pushing" when in fact there was no such wagon. Oh, wait a second, there was a

wagon

by your definition. Before you ask, no I'm not going back and pulling up quotes, mostly because I'm working my butt off this week between home and job.

I tried to get you to respond specifically to having a magic feeling that GM is scum, and you not only blew it off but actively discouraged it -- then you came right back and claimed that GM was indeed the target of your ability. How convenient that the target of your flake claim is the player I thought you had to mean, from earlier comments. That doesn't make your claim real though, because it opens the question of why, if you thought GM was "useless", would town use the ability that way? Why use that ability at all, before we know how many kills to expect? If you meant it to be protection, then why wouldn't you wait until someone claimed a role worth protecting? These are not WIFOM questions, they are serious. The claim can't be real -- a player of your stature would not use an ability this way.

General tone, general play, general feeling. It is more likely your actions are scum motivated than town.

[davesaz]

And when i flip town it will tell you nothing.

[davesaz]

I mean like where the F is dave?

Watching you try to mislynch me. Not like I'm going to convince anyone that derp is not scum. My play has been totally honest.
I wouldn't be surprised if most of the wagon, other than Thor, are town. Scum

should

keep me as future mislynch bait or a weak link in lylo.
Nero not hammering is a big question mark. Maybe even scum on Thor's team. Possibly scum on another team or SK that plans to NK Thor, if it is MB.