NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #18 (isolation #0) » Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:44 am

Post by Muffin »

/confirm

guys is supersaint a good role y/n
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Post Post #128 (isolation #1) » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:04 am

Post by Muffin »

VOTE: csareo
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Post Post #227 (isolation #2) » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:35 am

Post by Muffin »

Airport WiFi phone post. Got a 5 hour flight ahead of me, I'll try to wget all the pages and read up on the plane.

lol @ people taking anything I've posted until now seriously. Is supersaint even normal?
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Post Post #230 (isolation #3) » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:53 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 228, goodmorning wrote:
In post 223, Aneninen wrote:Unfortunately, I have no real reads yet. Mostly because of Csareo, who has been drawing away the focus of the game.

You don't think the way people focus on him and what they say is indicative?

@Muffin: It's not explicitly non-Normal.
Do you want to start making relevant posts anytime soon?

I'm sorry, did you miss the part where I was on Vacation with Limited Access for the last week? Did you miss the part where I'm going to catch up on 10 pages on the plane? How about you cut me some slack, OK Chief?
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Post Post #303 (isolation #4) » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:02 am

Post by Muffin »

I think I"m voting Csareo's slot. UNVOTE:

Well when the thread was locked I was about to say that Csareo was town, but that I think he needs vigged to keep the noise:signal ratio down because holy shit. We'll see who the replacement becomes but I might still be in favour of that slot being vigged for info re: TSO's alignment..

Outing the existence of neighbourhoods is a pro-town move IMO.

Town reads:
Thor
Tiershift

I don't really have any scum reads yet due to lots of noise in this thread. The interaction between Cho and TSO bears further scrutiny.

VOTE: cho
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Post Post #311 (isolation #5) » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:08 am

Post by Muffin »

Wut, I thought it was Boonskies who outed the neighbourhood.

God damn it.

/rereading
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Post Post #313 (isolation #6) » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:11 am

Post by Muffin »

Whatever I'm keeping the vote on Cho currently.

In post 278, T S O wrote:Why are you voting me?

In post 279, Cho wrote:Because TierShift wants to. Because I want to. I thought I made that clear.

In post 280, T S O wrote:So, you're voting me because you like voting me and you like mimicking TierShift?

In post 281, T S O wrote:If you give me stupid answers, you'll get a stupid question back.

I do not accept #279 as an explanation. Why are you voting me?

In post 282, Cho wrote:Because TierShift wants to. Because I want to. I thought I made that clear.

In post 284, T S O wrote:
Unvote
Vote: Cho

In post 285, Cho wrote:What the f***!?

In post 286, Cho wrote:Reasoning, please.


Cho, why do you expect reasoning from TSO despite being unwilling to provide your own? We both know "sheeping tiershift" isn't a real reason.
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Post Post #319 (isolation #7) » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:18 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 312, T S O wrote:
In post 303, Muffin wrote:I think I"m voting Csareo's slot. UNVOTE: We'll see who the replacement becomes but I might still be in favour of that slot being vigged for info re: TSO's alignment..


It seems off to me that you want the slot vigged to death but you're unvoting it at the same time. Do you not think it's worthy of a lynch, but worthy of a vig?
I think Csareo's slot is town. I think Csareo the player needed to get vigged because Csareo the player was lynchbait and needs to go play a bunch of games in the Newbie Queue to figure out how to things work. In absence of some vigilante having a better target, I think Csareo would have been an excellent shot. If he gets replaced by some other VI like ZZZX then I might still think that.

Also, what assumptions can you make about me from a town/scumflip or that slot?
I'm not saying that D1 of a Large I'm calling your alignment based on what he would flip. I still think he's town but if I was wrong I might look at your early interactions with him as experienced scum crushing a weaker scumbuddy before he can give the rest of the team away, Fate-style.
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Post Post #323 (isolation #8) » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:29 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 316, Cho wrote:And I'm not sure how to take you discarding the neighborhood-outing towntell entirely once called out on it. Is it scum trying to maintain consistency and avoid potentially being called out for flipflopping? Not sure.
Did I discard it? I'm pretty sure I said I thought it was Boonskies that outed it originally. Either way, it's not like scum have never made pro-town moves like outing a private QT in order to appear pro-town before. It's a pro-town move to do that but don't expect me to just give you a pass when I see something worthy of further scrutiny.
In post 320, Cho wrote:Of course I'm sheeping TierShift. What are you talking about?

and . It's kind of ridiculous to think that was seriously me asking for a reason. After that exchange, there were so many excuses to vote me.
So you're just trolling then? How about you don't. This thread is long enough already.

T S O wrote:Oooh, I'm the experienced scum in this scenario. That made me feel irrationally proud of myself.
:lol:
T S O wrote:But I don't actually bus as scum in general - I've done it once so far, excluding deadline busses, as far as I remember. It's kinda a point of pride for me.
Therefore I clearly cannot choose the wine in front of
me
!
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Post Post #333 (isolation #9) » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:11 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 330, T S O wrote:Well, it's great that you want to vote me even more now. Maybe you're actually going to- wait, you're already voting me.

The whole point of my answer, though, is that I can actually back up my meta of voteparking - not with examples, but with actual quotes of me saying I votepark. It's a recurrent habit, but it -is- my playstyle.

Knowing your own meta makes that meta useless. That is not a valid defence.
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Post Post #347 (isolation #10) » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:57 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 346, Garmr wrote:I'm going to be honest I'm lost now and don't know what to think.


UNVOTE: toby

Shittyvote is shitty
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Post Post #397 (isolation #11) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:55 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 366, PeregrineV wrote:I'll probably be catching up today. Anything I should look for?

In post 369, PeregrineV wrote:
Vote: Scripten

In post 374, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 370, Thor665 wrote:I don't think you get to naked vote at this stage of the game - reads and thoughts please.


It's not naked, it's more an acceptance that Izraeil probably knows better than I at this point, and last time I thought they were scum, ignored them, and we lost.

Of course, an actual read will give me a better idea. Is there a reason you think he is particularly town?

Holy shit this is scumposting.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: PerV
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Post Post #427 (isolation #12) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:29 am

Post by Muffin »

The pigeon thing is getting really old, really fast.
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Post Post #485 (isolation #13) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:33 am

Post by Muffin »

PerV, why are you voting Scripten but not pursuing him at all? You're "scumhunting" elsewhere instead of where your vote (and ostensibly your top scumread) is. Why is that?
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Post Post #497 (isolation #14) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:10 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 494, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 485, Muffin wrote:PerV, why are you voting Scripten but not pursuing him at all? You're "scumhunting" elsewhere instead of where your vote (and ostensibly your top scumread) is. Why is that?


It was a sheeping of Izreal, who I determined was town from a single/couple of posts based on a recently completed newbie game and I decided to place a vote while I caught up.


So you still think Scripten is scum? yes/no
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Post Post #514 (isolation #15) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:41 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 500, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 499, TobyLoby wrote:Why yes?


I'm actually working on my reads right now, but let's add in all the attention the 2 votes he has has garnered. It earned him a Thor townread, a Muffin inquisition of my vote, an Egg agreement with Izreal of the Scripten vote, and a TobyLoby questioning of the vote. Considering no one but Thor ever squeaked about Scripten prior to his 2 votes, I find all the sudden attention to be interest arousing.

This is specious logic and you know it.

I'm questioning your vote because it was a shitty vote, and the implication that I'm scum defending my buddy Scripten is just a transparent attempt to fling shit at the wall and see what sticks.
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Post Post #521 (isolation #16) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:51 am

Post by Muffin »

The simple facts are:
  • by your own statement you couldn't have had a scumread on scripten when you voted because you hadn't read the game and you parked your vote there while you caught up

Then, after catching up you:
  • didn't try to convince anyone else to join you on that wagon
  • didn't show any reasoning as to why Scripten is scum
  • didn't post any analysis of Scripten's posts to highlight scum motivation for his posts

Then, when called on your shitty vote by me you:
  • tried to paint my attack on your shitty vote as a chainsaw defense of scripten
  • posted a big giant reads list stretching something scripten wrote to fit your pre-existing vote


I'm not sure how any of those things come from a town frame of mind.

pedit I don't have a read on aninen i will iso them and get back to you
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Post Post #522 (isolation #17) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:51 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 521, Muffin wrote:The simple facts are:
  • by your own statement you couldn't have had a scumread on scripten when you voted because you hadn't read the game and you parked your vote there while you caught up

Then, after catching up you:
  • didn't try to convince anyone else to join you on that wagon
  • didn't show any reasoning as to why Scripten is scum
  • didn't post any analysis of Scripten's posts to highlight scum motivation for his posts

Then, when called on your shitty vote by me you:
  • tried to paint my attack on your shitty vote as a chainsaw defense of scripten
  • posted a big giant reads list stretching something scripten wrote to fit your pre-existing vote


I'm not sure how any of those things come from a town frame of mind.


All this @peregrine
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Post Post #528 (isolation #18) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:03 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 516, T S O wrote:What's your read on Aneninen?

Having done a brief read-through of Aneninen's iso I didn't really get any pings. I find him pretty annoying with the stupid pigeon shit, always trying to be funny and ingratiating, but then wondering why people think he's a VI and worrying about getting WOTC'd later. Judging by his join date, it's an attempt to fit in (if he's not an alt) and the pigeon crap points to him being a high-schooler who thinks it's funny.

As for his alignment in this game? I don't think I could call him scum (though I'd like to), but he's not really townie either. I have trouble reading newbies, because a lot of his content is pretty hollow and seems like it won't go anywhere, but then I remember that I'm not super pro at this game either, and when I was a newbie I had no fucking idea what I was doing.

Still, I'd gladly YOLO-hammer him though, if he was at L-1.
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Post Post #536 (isolation #19) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:17 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 534, T S O wrote:If you don't like Aneninen, try using your vote. I hear all the cool kids are doing it these days.

Well I would, but my vote's on my top scumread atm.
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Post Post #541 (isolation #20) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:31 am

Post by Muffin »

I would like to know, for my own scumhunting purposes, which players are in a neighbourhood with which others.

Because sometimes neighbourhoods result in weird coordination that can look like a scumteam but is not.

So... yeah.
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Post Post #550 (isolation #21) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:06 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 544, PeregrineV wrote:A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum.
Specious logic again.
Why would I?
Because you're voting him?
At this point I'm arguing I don't have a town read on him, he gave me early scumvibes, and I find the interest in him interesting in and of itself. You tell me why he's town and maybe we'll debate the finer points.
No, that's not how it works. The onus is on you to explain why someone is scum. I myself have him pretty null, but you voted for no reason and then stretched the facts to justify your vote instead of just finding someone scummier to vote. That's not a natural progression that I'd expect from a town player.

If you aren't scumreading him why are you still parking your vote there? Why not vote one of the other players you're attacking?
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Post Post #556 (isolation #22) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:02 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 553, PeregrineV wrote:
Explain how my logic is superficially plausible, but actually wrong.
Because if you actually go into depth, any rational player would realize that your argument falls on its ass if your definition of "town cred" is different from his. I'm done debating semantics with you on this point. Your logic is faulty and you know it.

My vote is staying there because why not?
Yes, you need a safe place to park it so you can pretend to be scumhunting. I understand.
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Post Post #566 (isolation #23) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:52 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 558, Thor665 wrote:
I'm going to vote you on the basis you're claiming scum.


Do it, then.
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Post Post #579 (isolation #24) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:04 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 567, Thor665 wrote:
In post 566, Muffin wrote:
In post 558, Thor665 wrote:
I'm going to vote you on the basis you're claiming scum.


Do it, then.

I am voting him.
You should do it too and be more useful.

My bad I thought you were still voting TSO.

I voted PerV like 8 pages ago.
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Post Post #581 (isolation #25) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:12 pm

Post by Muffin »

i mean it's pretty obvious that if scripten meant "trying to look town by doing lazy scumhunting" rather than "he's bussing me and we're scumbros" then everything is copacetic

i disagree with that description of Iz's post; but that doesn't mean i need to scumread scripten for it. the "leading" cho wagon wasn't much of a wagon at all so attacking someone for being like the 4th person onto a wagon in a 21p large is pretty meh.

the problem with the meta on this site is that a lot of people are too fucking rigid, god damn open your minds, not all scum or town play will fit into your pre-existing mental schema
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Post Post #582 (isolation #26) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:14 pm

Post by Muffin »

scripten's a big boy, he doesn't need me to defend him despite your burning desire to argue with me about scripten's motives

ask him yourself, perv
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Post Post #593 (isolation #27) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:52 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 587, Scripten wrote:So ready to vote PereV

Just Dew It®
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Post Post #599 (isolation #28) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:09 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 594, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 582, Muffin wrote:scripten's a big boy, he doesn't need me to defend him despite your burning desire to argue with me about scripten's motives

ask him yourself, perv


Yet you are defending him.

The question is out there from both me and Axle. We'll see what he says.

i know, i need to stop arguing with my scumreads
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Post Post #630 (isolation #29) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:30 am

Post by Muffin »

Reminder that throughout this entire exchange where PereV is calling Thor scum, Pere has had his vote parked on a go-nowhere wagon.

What's the matter Per? Scared to vote Thor?
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Post Post #708 (isolation #30) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:08 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 702, Izariael wrote:Does anyone object to doing this?

Given they've already been exposed, I definitely agree that the pro town move is to lat out who is in which neighborhood.
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Post Post #903 (isolation #31) » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:53 pm

Post by Muffin »

Crap. I'll try to catch up tonight.

My other game is complete shit right now so I'm a little frustrated with mafia atm.
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Post Post #919 (isolation #32) » Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:36 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 893, goodmorning wrote:trading vanity for vanity

Vote: Thor


maybe i'm crazy

In post 896, goodmorning wrote:like, i'm not exactly convinced pere's not scum but i find you quite a lot more so

Hi

I would like you to explain this vote. "Gut" or "I don't know" is not a sufficient explanation for a 35+ page read.
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Post Post #934 (isolation #33) » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:13 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 924, Aneninen wrote:Walls with zillions of post-links haven't been popular either. And I hate long-long-long quote-walls. Besides, there are players here who haven't been doing anything useful and you call a readlist which was a result of ISO-ing everyone? Hmmm...
I'm telling for the last time: ask a question (eg. why do you have a xxx-read on yyy?) and I'll answer. If not, I'll finish this conversation because we're getting nowhere.

My advice would be to just make a wall of quotes and then put them in spoiler tags. You can PM me if you need help with it.
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Post Post #935 (isolation #34) » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:15 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 927, goodmorning wrote:On Thor is mostly a tone-based read as I think I've made clear.

Is that the best you can come up with?
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Post Post #949 (isolation #35) » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:45 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 945, goodmorning wrote:Were you expecting Thor to fuck up bad?

I was expecting something better than "tone" which is basically just a gut read. If you can't come up with more than a "tone" read ( :roll: ) from 35 pages, then maybe there's a better place for your vote, hey?
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Post Post #956 (isolation #36) » Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:56 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 954, goodmorning wrote:And no, it's not a gut read. It's a(n admittedly limited) meta read.

Please link me to games where this meta of "tone difference" is displayed in town vs. scum.
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Post Post #958 (isolation #37) » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:49 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 957, goodmorning wrote:You are totally welcome to read the post wherein I linked 2 games.

Hey, thanks for being caustic.

I skimmed your iso and only found #555 which links 4 games, none of which support your assertion that Thor is scum, because he was not a player in any of those.

I'm willing to work with you, but I need you to link me games that support your meta read on Thor. Otherwise your "read" isn't much of one.
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Post Post #962 (isolation #38) » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:23 pm

Post by Muffin »

k thx
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Post Post #1029 (isolation #39) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:58 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 1022, Thor665 wrote:Muffin - Not fond of hard Thor defense. Call it mildly mild on the scum side.

Don't misconstrue things please.

Attacking a really weak case on someone does not equate to "hard defending" that player.

You can consider yourself an ally of convenience if you like.
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Post Post #1034 (isolation #40) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:34 pm

Post by Muffin »

ok
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Post Post #1070 (isolation #41) » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:22 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 1069, Egg wrote:
In post 739, davesaz wrote:Scum will have knowledge of all neighborhoods they have a member in. Town does not have general neighborhood knowledge, unless we reveal the neighborhoods before any of us are eliminated. The only knowledge that scum* gain from reveals is any neighborhoods they don't have members in. It doesn't seem to help scum.

Things which reduce the gap between what scum know and what town know is good for town.

(*) Scum and other factions <if any>


^this kind of looks like being too careful not to slip knowledge of how many factions there are.

Even when looked at in context of two other players arguing back and forth about multiball?
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Post Post #1147 (isolation #42) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:09 pm

Post by Muffin »

V/LA starting tomorrow until Monday for Thanksgiving.
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Post Post #1487 (isolation #43) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:55 am

Post by Muffin »

Okay, catching up
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Post Post #1606 (isolation #44) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:57 pm

Post by Muffin »

Having caught up, I still don't see Pere as town.

I was townreading Aneninen until he voted TSO, now I'm not so sure.
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Post Post #1607 (isolation #45) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:20 pm

Post by Muffin »

Dear PereV,

It seems the entirety of your scumread on Thor revolves around setup speculation. I myself am undecided on him. Frankly I think too much of this game revolves around Thor. Can you link to posts of his, other than setup spec, that demonstrates scum mentality?
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Post Post #1609 (isolation #46) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:13 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 1608, AxleGreaser wrote:It seems to me you you ought have scum read on me, unless I mistake your post.
What would give you that idea?

If so wanna talk about it?
Not really.
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Post Post #1623 (isolation #47) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:09 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 1612, Aneninen wrote:@Muffin. What was your problem with my TSO vote?

I didn't like the way you seemingly developed a scumread on TSO because he was aggro on you.
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Post Post #1628 (isolation #48) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:55 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 1589, Garmr wrote:
In post 1585, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1584, Garmr wrote:But I don't see tso as scum


So you can explain how it is plausible he has his read on Aneninen?

because I also have similar problem with your read on Aneninen, but find TSO scummier, so I started with him.


Bang this just hit me.

I have explained my reasons even through it started with a misunderstanding. What I find wrong is how your attacking the Aneninen, wagon and trying to disassemble it with out once saying Aneninen, is town. Sure you said here are some of annienens town games but not even once in the slightest have you said Aneninen to say what you think his alignment is Hell. When you presented Aneninen, town game to me you didn't even say this is why Aneninen, is town/scum because of this game and that one match up(they don't). Your like here's some Aneninen games I can't be bothered pointing out the points to show why they can be referenced with this game.You been passively defending annienen as well.

I think you did this subconsciously as he is either your scum buddy or your trying to buddy him. Your also reluctant to share your reads other than tso and you been playing a mediator role the whole game when it doesn't involve a scum read like you want to get in on the action yet not get to heavily involved.

come on people read through his iso Aneninen is mentioned over 100 times but not his alinement.

UNVOTE: Aneninen
VOTE: Axlegreaser

Why does this make an axlegreaser vote more palatable to you than an aneninen vote? It seems to me this ought to reinforce your scum read on aneninen the scum bro, should it not?
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Post Post #1645 (isolation #49) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:09 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 1644, AxleGreaser wrote:Warning: Csareo vanished in a puff of mod logic we wont be talking about, so mainly ignore that it didn't happen

Why don't you think a player slot should be judged by all who played it?
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Post Post #1679 (isolation #50) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Post by Muffin »

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Post Post #1686 (isolation #51) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:47 pm

Post by Muffin »

Whining about stalling the game causes the game to remain stalled. Just knock it off and scumhunt.

What is your read on PerV, axle?
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Post Post #1688 (isolation #52) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:57 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 1687, AxleGreaser wrote:Would you like to ask me about something else at this time?

My read on the situation is similar to his, unless something changes one of Him or Thor seems like likely lynch.
For some reason inexplicable to me other people don't have a problem with TSOs play enough to vote him yet.

I guess this one is me dodging at this time.


Simple question. Is PereV town or scum?
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Post Post #1828 (isolation #53) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:06 pm

Post by Muffin »

Prod dodge. At a wedding, back late tomorrow night.
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Post Post #1948 (isolation #54) » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:55 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 1710, PeregrineV wrote:Still can't see what everyone is so enamored of. I want his gift for all my scumgames.

Vote: Scripten

Why haven't you been able to articulate why Scripten is scum?

The only thing I can see is the "town cred" thing from like 65 pages ago. Which posts, specifically, demonstrate scum motivation from scripten?
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Post Post #1972 (isolation #55) » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:17 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 1917, Slandaar wrote:...

GM thinks rolefishing is scummy, now think about this response;
In post 1802, goodmorning wrote:It's terribly transparent,
trying to lynch a PR.
trying to rolefish.
Your answer is too simple
- it doesn't take consequences into account.

GM is scum. She is thinking on different levels when it suits her.

The End.

Can you explain this a little more please? The struck-through text confuses me.
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Post Post #1973 (isolation #56) » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:21 am

Post by Muffin »

like is that paraphrasing you've inserted willy-nilly or what
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Post Post #1977 (isolation #57) » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:42 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 1969, Aneninen wrote:
In post 1965, Slandaar wrote:
In post 1961, Aneninen wrote:
The , vote for GoodMorning is terrible, as for its reasoning. Everyone: check that out, also the #s of the posts!!!

Whats terrible about it?


I've highlighted them, see below. (As far as I know he didn't have a game with Csareo before. TSO had. Why don't you scumread him too?)
Also, the quotes you'd made proved nothing.

In post 1917, Slandaar wrote:I think Thor and PV are both town.
Lets lynch someone else.

Vote: GoodMorning

GM is good as scum so she hasn't made any huge mistakes or slips and this makes it hard to make an argument against her but her tone doesn't feel right and she never seems to have much point to what she says.
:]
But seriously;
The way she acted during Csareo's time was incredibly scummy.
She asked him multitudes of questions and argued lots of what he said because
it was easy
.
It looks good when you argue with someone like Csareo because you will always win and thus come out looking good but at the same time she wasn't pushing the wagon or really doing anything with the questions she asked or points she disputed.
You can see this later where she never again questions anyone to such an extent, take Thor she never questions him.


You need to explain why the parts you underlined are scummy, or you will never get anyone to join this wagon you want to start.

Also,

In post 1965, Slandaar wrote:
In post 1961, Aneninen wrote:
(By the way, did he want to derail the PeregrineV wagon in ? We should remember that later!)

Yep I want to derail PV wagon.

Derail? Isn't that word used for a scum-action? To derail a wagon of a scumbuddy?

Words have fluid meanings that differ from person to person. You will not ever catch scum in this manner outside of the newbie queue.

FWIW I find your case on Slandaar to be very lacking.
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Post Post #1978 (isolation #58) » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:43 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 1976, Slandaar wrote:
In post 1972, Muffin wrote:Can you explain this a little more please? The struck-through text confuses me.

The point I was making there is she was calling rolefishing scummy but saying scum wouldn't try to lynch claimed PR's because it's too obvious but rolefishing is also very obvious. So saying one is scummy and one isn't is terrible as they are essentially the same argument.

ok
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Post Post #1981 (isolation #59) » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:47 am

Post by Muffin »

let me read gm's iso real quick
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Post Post #1983 (isolation #60) » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:08 pm

Post by Muffin »

So why aren't you voting Aneninen? I'd get on that wagon. I'm not comfortable calling goodmorning scum at this point, though.

I think your argument is logical but predicated on internal consistencies that may or may not exist. Townies do scummy/irrational shit all the time.
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Post Post #1985 (isolation #61) » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:16 pm

Post by Muffin »

Here's something interesting though:

GM doesn't comment on Aneninen townreading me
In post 863, Aneninen wrote:...

Muffin
– Not too much content but it seems that he's doing real scumhunting. Lean town.

But does have a problem with davesaz townreading me
In post 945, goodmorning wrote:
...
In post 936, davesaz wrote:FWIW, going through reviews of various players. I reviewed some posts of Muffin. I would call this town with some pretty good confidence.

...really?

That's incredibly weak. Muffin has been asking easy questions and flying low, and you want to call that Town?
...

In that same post she really seems to be treating Aneninen with the kid gloves.
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Post Post #1986 (isolation #62) » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:19 pm

Post by Muffin »

oh shit:
In post 945, goodmorning wrote:
In post 928, Thor665 wrote:If it's a reaction on me - I was planning to ignore you other than to occasionally point out how your vote is useless and that you don't appear to be scumhunting in any functional way at all.

GOLLY GEE MISTER

I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU FIGURED ME OUT

I don't have any real need to question anyone at the moment. Reads are forming based on reading, it's all quite fun.

In post 935, Muffin wrote:
In post 927, goodmorning wrote:On Thor is mostly a tone-based read as I think I've made clear.

Is that the best you can come up with?

Were you expecting Thor to fuck up bad? Because I'm not. You may have noticed he's good at this game. He's not going to make any pushes he doesn't think he can justify, he's not going to overstretch his hand, and with this being a Large there's plenty of room to hide in.

I figure if I keep on about it then by the time we hit D9 he'll get lynched.
Of course, if he gets NK'd then great, I can move on.


In post 936, davesaz wrote:FWIW, going through reviews of various players. I reviewed some posts of Muffin. I would call this town with some pretty good confidence.

...really?

That's incredibly weak. Muffin has been asking easy questions and flying low, and you want to call that Town?

In post 938, Aneninen wrote:@Goodmorning. What exactly do you want to "reach" with that vote? If you don't provide a case against Thor, I doubt anyone might follow your vote. I also doubt that Thor will be "scared" of your vote.

I don't know what you mean with the first question. To the latter stuff:
In post 927, goodmorning wrote:On Thor is mostly a tone-based read as I think I've made clear. I don't expect anyone to believe/follow me and I'm fine with that (to all others who asked).

If I was trying to scare Thor, I would have wasted a couple days constructing a massive case full of bullshit and yelled it at people until they believed me. It turns out that if you repeat yourself often enough, no matter how many times you get discredited, SOME PEOPLE WILL STILL BELIEVE YOU.
I find that incredible, but it's true. It's happened to me enough times.

I find that Garmr has affirmed himself out of the uncomfortable list.

Barring vig, why would a scum player get vigged? Is this gm slipping that she knows thor is town?

That phrase really pinged for me.

oh god oh god oh god oh god oh god oh god oh god oh god indecision
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Post Post #1988 (isolation #63) » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:36 pm

Post by Muffin »

fuck it

not ready to lynch goodmorning yet, but have been getting less and less confident pere will flip scum

UNVOTE:
VOTE: aneninen
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Post Post #1995 (isolation #64) » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:07 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 1986, Muffin wrote:Barring vig, why would a scum player get "nightkilled"? Is this gm slipping that she knows thor is town?
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Post Post #1996 (isolation #65) » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:07 pm

Post by Muffin »

ebwop
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Post Post #2053 (isolation #66) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:51 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 2016, Aneninen wrote:Whenever I post a case, everybody loses their minds.
Do you really think "losing our minds" is a fair characterization of what's going on here? Your case was bad and it was called such.

For your information, about Slandaar. (Supplementary for .)
– the highlighted bits were scummy because, (1) "let's lynch someone else is way not enough for launching a case; and there are other possibilities besides Thor and PereV; (2) that part about "Goodmorning is scum because she doesn't make mistakes as scum" must have been a joke, but a real life experience from me is that players tend to make joke out of real things just to attenuate their "annoying" thoughts; I still can't see why a player who has never played with Csareo before is scummier because of their interaction with him than another one who has played with Csareo. (And this argument against TSO from me was called weak... yet another double standard)
Okay let's try this a different way. Here is what you need to do to get your "case" taken seriously and to have your posts not be skimmed/ignored. Use the following format, borrowed from someone else earlier in thread:
  • Snippet of relevant post,
    using the quote tag function

  • explanation of why it demonstrates scum motivation

So far you have failed to show scum motivation, including in the above quote.


– I was FoS-ed in another game for using the phrase "derail a wagon" and I was town

Pro tip: FOSses don't mean anything. They're stupid and you should ignore them like everyone else.
Secondly: This supports my point that word choice is rarely if ever going to be indicative of alignment.

– and the most important part, which, I must admit, an intuition-read, was his nervous reaction to my scumlist. Some calls things like that "reaction tests". But, I've already learnt it: if someone else performs a reaction test, noone bats an eye. If I do the same...
Oh, it was a reaction test? Okay, what would a town reaction have been, and why does "nervousness" indicate scum? Be specific, clear, and explicit. Reaction tests are highly overrated, and you need to demonstrate why the reaction you got was scum, and what you would expect to be a town reaction.

Muffin was "not confident enough" about his reads
What town motivation is there for you to put words into my mouth, twisting my post into something I didn't say? What I said was that I am not confident Pere will flip scum.

Remember what I said before?
My posts are misinterpreted, misrepresented or ignored, and used by many for playing the "Regardless Of Card" at me and many are talking AT me instead of talking TO me. It still works in this way: some players ARE interested in focusing on me and make out arguments out of anything to call me scum. I have a couple of ideas, but if you check the thread, there WILL be one name which crystallizes itself out VERY clearly. Who's ALWAYS there whenever there IS a possibility of a wagon against me. (No, I won't tell it. If I told, there would be more votes without cases for me.)
Feel free to lynch me, but and as soon as I flip town start examining all the votes for me and all the players who were eagerly voting for me without providing any reasons. I strongly think THAT would be more helpful to the town than my posts.
Honestly this whole tirade reads to me like inexperienced scum who's angry and doesn't understand how/why they got "caught", initially overestimating the amount of suspicion they were under (what was it, a measly 4 friggin votes?) and then over-reacting as a result.
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Post Post #2055 (isolation #67) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:55 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 2052, Egg wrote:Goodmorning's "reaction test" was weird. I don't understand why you thought Toby would react to you not interacting with her on Day 1 of a large game.
Yes I agree. Town
or
scum, I rarely if ever notice one player not interacting with me, especially if they'd done so earlier. It's not like she was being conspicuous about interacting with everyone else, either.
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Post Post #2146 (isolation #68) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:15 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 2134, davesaz wrote:I'm quite surprised that nobody scumread me after I "caught" Egg having "scum knowledge".

This brings up two inconsistencies. Some players are seen as scummy if they point out other players who seem to have inside information, but other players who make the same observation are not scummy. And there seems to be a double standard on the posting of apparent inside information as well.

UNVOTE:

If you're trying to fish for scumreads you have to act scummy, not act like a clueless newbie which is how I read you at the time.
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Post Post #2148 (isolation #69) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:18 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 2144, goodmorning wrote:THAT'S WHY I SAID I WAS BUTTING IN

BECAUSE I DID

GET REKT

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post Post #2163 (isolation #70) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:40 am

Post by Muffin »

Fully 80% of posts by AxleGreaser are just straight-up illegible. Please be town, and get NKed so I don't have to wade through them any more.
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Post Post #2167 (isolation #71) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:04 pm

Post by Muffin »

So in other words Aneninen, you can't demonstrate why Slandaar is scum, and can only throw Appeals to Emotion?

Why are you voting Slandaar? You can't even come up with reasons why he is scum.
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Post Post #2172 (isolation #72) » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:37 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 2170, beastcharizard wrote:So, who is town and who is scum?

You should read the thread (yes, it's long) for yourself and come to your own conclusions though.

Spoiler: pro tip
I'm so town I have a degree in urban planning.
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Post Post #2196 (isolation #73) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:40 am

Post by Muffin »

Can you guys stop theory crafting.

My opinion is that Aneninen is scum for reason s aforementioned.

It is a distraction to be arguing about theory, this game is long enough
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Post Post #2244 (isolation #74) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:45 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 2233, T S O wrote:Peregrine's jump on Anen is awful.
Explain why. Be explicit.
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Post Post #2247 (isolation #75) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:31 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 2245, T S O wrote:Because going back 700+ pages in his ISO, there has been no mention of Aneninen and it's really just him saving his own skin.

That's patently untrue, though. He's mentioned Aneninen numerous times and had at least semi-decent reasons for scumreading him.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TSO
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Post Post #2268 (isolation #76) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:42 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 2259, AxleGreaser wrote:decide fuck it,
he
is clearly not actually playing on my team.

The bolded "he"... is that referring to Aneninen or TSO? I have trouble following your trains of thought.

Also, is Aneninenenineneninen town or scum in your opinion?
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Post Post #2272 (isolation #77) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:42 pm

Post by Muffin »

thank you
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Post Post #2385 (isolation #78) » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:59 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 2357, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2352, davesaz wrote:I don't see the big "we gotta lynch someone" that I'd expect from town

I did that for a while.
Then people acted like everything was great or that I was a jerk being holier-than-thou.

So I stopped caring.
I embrace the derp lynch that will soon happen, and the joy of watching people comment on Day 4 that some of the votes are "hard to read".

Acts holier than us, in a post claiming to be upset for being called out on being holier than thou. Grade A trolling, 10/10 would get trolled again.

Do us all a favour and drop the appeals to emotion pls.
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Post Post #2389 (isolation #79) » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:36 pm

Post by Muffin »

I still think TSO is a better lynch but I will come back just before deadline to hammer if necessary
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Post Post #2396 (isolation #80) » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:21 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 2390, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2350, Aegor wrote:
Votecount 1.19


[6]
PeregrineV:
Egg, Thor665, Scripten, The Fonz, AxleGreaser, davesaz
[5]
Aneninen:
Shiro*, TierShift, Garmr, T S O, PeregrineV
[4]
Thor665:
goodmorning, Nero Cain, flubbernugget, Izariael
[1]
goodmorning:
Slandaar
[1]
T S O:
Muffin
[1]
Shiro:
Grayfoxxxx

[3]
Not Voting:
beastcharizard, Aneninen, Boonskiies

@Muffin - yeah, because that wagon is totally about to spring into action with you offering a vote move.

Pere is at L-5, and is the runaway lead wagon.
There are three days left.
The gak?

Dunno what you mean by "the gak" but TSO is a quality vote and you should sheep it for great justice
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Post Post #2427 (isolation #81) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:48 pm

Post by Muffin »

Fine, whatever, compromise lynch:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: aneninen
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Post Post #2430 (isolation #82) » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:02 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 2428, T S O wrote:Imagine if you actually gave a reason for me being scum?
Or even responded to me proving your Pere accusation against me was terrible?
Wouldn't that be magical?

I really haven't been doing much more than skimming since thursday so I missed these, I guess.

Signal:noise ratio in this game is p bad tbh, where did you ask these?

Scripten wrote:
In post 2428, T S O wrote:Imagine if you actually gave a reason for me being scum?
Or even responded to me proving your Pere accusation against me was terrible?
Wouldn't that be magical?


This.

Muffin:
Or, at least, give a reason why you will not post your case? My light townread on you is slipping, and I don't like that.

why do I care if people are townreading me? I'm here to find scum not to be read as town.
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Post Post #2531 (isolation #83) » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:44 pm

Post by Muffin »

Lame.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: PereV
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Post Post #2646 (isolation #84) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:48 pm

Post by Muffin »

oh, didn't get a PM saying Day started. Catching up
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Post Post #2821 (isolation #85) » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:47 pm

Post by Muffin »

le prod dodge

got unexpectedly busy, will try to catch up soon
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Post Post #2864 (isolation #86) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:06 am

Post by Muffin »

I'm slowly but surely looking at the Pere wagon.

@grayfoxxx:
are you caught up yet? I have questions for you.
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Post Post #2958 (isolation #87) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:45 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 2619, Boonskiies wrote:Thor's town. And it's multiball...

In post 2621, davesaz wrote:@Boon: Why are you so sure about both points?

In post 2623, Boonskiies wrote:@Dave - which points are you referring to?

Boonskies, why is Thor town?
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Post Post #2970 (isolation #88) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:13 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 2960, Boonskiies wrote:I don't care enough to explain anything on him. I was just trying to get people off Thor and onto Iz when I said he was town.

That's really not an acceptable answer. If you're townreading him, you should be able to articulate why.
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Post Post #2989 (isolation #89) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:39 pm

Post by Muffin »

VOTE: boonskies
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Post Post #3033 (isolation #90) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:18 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 2990, Flubbernugget wrote:Well damn muffin.

Can we at least get some thoughts on nero right now?
I have no strong read on Nero currently. His ISO is mostly fluff/filler. It's a lot of setup spec and mod meta, all of which is 110% useless. There are a few decent posts and no outright pings.
In post 2998, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 2994, Nero Cain wrote:Well why do you want thoughts on me if you aren't scum reading me?


I would like to know why muffin disagrees with you.

In which Flubber implies that my read on Boonskies should take other players' reads on Boonskies into account. I laugh at your silly implication and flimsy logic. Ha ha ha ha.
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Post Post #3034 (isolation #91) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:22 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 3011, Nero Cain wrote:Yeah, I never said anything about a false dichotomy.

@town flubber is caught scum and continues to reply to me yet his replies have NOTHING to do with whats being said. town cred to the next 8 voters.


also I am not scum reading boons
You'll have to spell out why exactly this makes flubber scum. Be explicit.

In post 3025, Nero Cain wrote:I found flubs asking for opinions on me(his town read) to be strange. Explain what you think the town motivation is in that?
What is the scum motivation for that?
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Post Post #3089 (isolation #92) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:28 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 3083, Thor665 wrote:I'm mixing you up with someone else in my head, clearly.

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.

Cute misrep.

Here's the "wall" in question, about Anen. I note without surprise that the first line explicitly shows Shiro's diminishing scumread on Anen. Given the proximity of deadline I do not see any internal inconsistency there.

Contrarily, you're now stretching the facts to fit your vote.
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Post Post #3099 (isolation #93) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:43 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 3088, Shiro wrote:Who did u even mix me up with ?

In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:@Shiro - some other lurksack.
In other words, you can't think of someone you can pin it on?

@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

Prior to #2558, instances of "pere" in Shiro's ISO: 8
instances of "anen" in Shiro's ISO for the same period: 7

Seems like a misrep to me, bud. Flow of Shiro's thoughts are evident to me, and seem reasonable for someone w a town mindset.

You're doing a really bad job selling Shiroscum.
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Post Post #3100 (isolation #94) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:44 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 3093, Boonskiies wrote:I claimed my role at not even at L-2, how is that a panic claim? Also, it's not similar to the one I did my tracker fake claim, as I claimed that one day 1, in a game where I was
much
more active than I was here. If I was scum for one of my first times, don't you think I'd be far more interested in this game than I was day 1? Also, it got to the point where I wasn't going to draw a NK anymore , so me claiming does nothing to change that.
wifom
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Post Post #3106 (isolation #95) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:42 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 3104, goodmorning wrote:@Muffin: hey do you still think thor is town? if you do then i wanna talk about that shit
judging by later posts MAYBE NOT


Nope, not particularly. One weaksauce case on PereV I can maybe forgive because it's D1 and we all have low info. But I would not expect arguably weaker cases on D2 from him.
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Post Post #3107 (isolation #96) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:44 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 3101, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3099, Muffin wrote:Prior to #2558, instances of "pere" in Shiro's ISO: 8
instances of "anen" in Shiro's ISO for the same period: 7

:neutral:
Wow.


Is this you capitulating, and accepting that your rationale for Shiro being scum is entirely false? Or is this you expressing disbelief that I have twice shown you being dishonest in your characterizations of Shiro?
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Post Post #3110 (isolation #97) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:26 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 3108, Thor665 wrote:I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.

Oh so now the valid metric is "Thor's qualitative, arbitrary scale describing the degree to which someone was mentioned"?
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Post Post #3117 (isolation #98) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:24 pm

Post by Muffin »

Time to make gm happy I guess?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: thor
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Post Post #3127 (isolation #99) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:15 pm

Post by Muffin »

Prior to and including the vote in question:
Spoiler: 3 pere mentions
In post 2404, Shiro wrote:Oh it wasnt ???Sorry my bad

UNVOTE:ANEN


Also page 70 finally almost done

In post 2420, Shiro wrote:
Shiro, I hope we are getting some of your reads before deadline hits. Especially on the leading wagons.


Yea I am on page 92 so almost done but I wont make anything productive till tommrow. It is late here and I have been reading this thread from early morning. My mind cannot do much at this time. It needs rest

A quick thing though.

Both Pere and Thor lynch seems bad to me.

Thors lynch I just cannot see it. Par a small part where he wasn't all that active I cannot see as scum at all like. Why does that wagon exist ?He was the only one trying to get town to do anythimg early on and kept it up. There has been some back and forth but still. Is that me being too newbie to see something here :/

Pere is honestly the same but less regard. He is only off when talking with Thor but most people that argued with thor ended up seeming off after it is that a thing ? I did notice he has a knack for winning argument. The fact that most people on pere wagoon have little reason of their own and just follow thor is off by itself . Especially earlier. Liek using Thor abbility to push well to further a lynch. He pretyt much hold his own when talking to others about the case.

I guess best wagon is Anen. His posts seem off and coming right out of a game that he was town(even if I was maf) his post don't have the same town vibe they had there. I don't really know how to explain this tbh. Has GM noted anything similar to that ? If I recall Tier has and he was in the same game I speak of.

In post 2462, Shiro wrote:Thor can I ask you something ? I think I understand your reason behind Pere wagoon but why wouldnt scum pere back off when he had the chance ? I mean he had a few chances biggest being the one where it was pointed that there was a misundersating with what multball meant. Why wouldn't he step away and spare himself all this trouble ? He was clearly losing the argument anyway.

Spoiler: 4 anen mentions
In post 2420, Shiro wrote:
Shiro, I hope we are getting some of your reads before deadline hits. Especially on the leading wagons.


Yea I am on page 92 so almost done but I wont make anything productive till tommrow. It is late here and I have been reading this thread from early morning. My mind cannot do much at this time. It needs rest

A quick thing though.

Both Pere and Thor lynch seems bad to me.

Thors lynch I just cannot see it. Par a small part where he wasn't all that active I cannot see as scum at all like. Why does that wagon exist ?He was the only one trying to get town to do anythimg early on and kept it up. There has been some back and forth but still. Is that me being too newbie to see something here :/

Pere is honestly the same but less regard. He is only off when talking with Thor but most people that argued with thor ended up seeming off after it is that a thing ? I did notice he has a knack for winning argument. The fact that most people on pere wagoon have little reason of their own and just follow thor is off by itself . Especially earlier. Liek using Thor abbility to push well to further a lynch. He pretyt much hold his own when talking to others about the case.

I guess best wagon is Anen. His posts seem off and coming right out of a game that he was town(even if I was maf) his post don't have the same town vibe they had there. I don't really know how to explain this tbh. Has GM noted anything similar to that ? If I recall Tier has and he was in the same game I speak of.

In post 2436, Shiro wrote:Hmmm first of the pigeon jokes felt off I had hard time believing that the person that made a complicated impssible to see crypto message acted that way.

He had many posts that made little sense but screamed screamed town. I don't really see that here either

His approach to being top counterwagon want as defensive.

I get the feeling he is more laid back here but that might be cause of his TSO interaction which would have made most people go fuck it.

Tier has a point though half a newbie game isn't sufficient meta to cross check.

That is on top of my head. Will read his and Pere ISOs when I get home to try and make a better conclusion .

In post 2488, Shiro wrote:Ok after reading Anen ISO a few times I don't see him as scummy as I initialy though maybe TSO constant "He is scum" rubbed on me as I was reading through everything in one go.

Axl

1. Well when pressured and your response is pooping it did make me raise an eyebrow but then again he was pressured with pretty much nothing. Soo..

2. Well for one when in L-1 he stopped caring about not getting lynched and tried to show what should be looked at if he is lynched.

3. No which is why I said it is probably because of TSO action.

4. Yes actually. I mean why respond defensivly to empty stuff ?

5. Well as I mentioned a bit above after re reading it like 2 times I am left with a better impression. *Sigh*

Also not sure if that what you asked but:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=58764
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=58767


Eh I dunno I am not going ot vote for Thor wagoon cause it makes absolutly no sense, and now after the re reads I feel relucant to vote for Anen. He does seem like a nicely placed mislynch. God damn it...Dx

@Dave if that makes any diifference back in the game she was IC with me everyone did say that her day 1 play is evassive and vague as town. Litteraly everyone that knew her said so. It drove a person mad xD


In post 2498, Shiro wrote:@Axl I meant anen not you xD

It was posts:

1969 and 424 also one to you that I forgot number

But in any case I do feel much less inclinted to vote anen now anyway.

@Tier Isn't GM always evassive and vague during day 1 ?


And then there's the vote itself:

In post 2513, Shiro wrote:
VOTE:PERE


I thought Anen was best but eh now I dont want it and Thor is still a really horrible wagon imo so yea


So, yeah. 3 posts seem to be mostly about pere, and 4 mostly about anen, including one that is sort of about both of them. Not to mention if you go through them chronologically there is a clear progression of reads. Do you want to try your pathetically-bad argument again?

In before Thor just restates the same argument ignoring the factual evidence that he is full of shit.
In before "yeah but it's the QUALITY of the mentions, on some subjective scale it's impossible to argue against because I just made it up"
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Post Post #3128 (isolation #100) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:19 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 3126, Thor665 wrote:What do you think the correct scale is then and/or what I meant?
Specifically and only number of times a name was mentioned?
Because that is either incredibly stupid or incredibly dishonest of you.


First you spoke of the number of mentions:
In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere.


Then I did a quick ctrl+f and saw that mentions were roughly on par.

After that you decided that no, even though you said "look at how many thoughts were posted", you didn't mean quantity. What you meant by "how many" was in fact a meaningless, qualitative "the degree to which they were mentioned":
In post 3108, Thor665 wrote:I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.


But as shown above even if we go back and look at not just a ctrl+f but a holistic appraisal of Shiro's iso before the vote in question, you're still wrong. I might excuse a newbie for making such a weak argument but you can't hide behind the excuse of "my case is bad because I am a bad player".

Therefore I can only conclude this is your attempt to push a mislynch on a quasi-lurker in hopes that town would just go along with you rather than lynch someone with name recognition, and a newbie that you could probably bully into making a damning mistake.
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Post Post #3130 (isolation #101) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:00 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 3129, Thor665 wrote:So when I said 'thoughts' you went with 'names' and decided that was legit.
At first perhaps. I then went and did it your way. You're still full of shit.

Your Pere quotes are pretty heavily padded out with conversation about Thor and you know it.
Hmmm, you're saying it's the quality of the mentions that matters now? I'm pretty sure I saw that mentioned somewhere already...
Muffin wrote:In before "yeah but it's the QUALITY of the mentions, on some subjective scale it's impossible to argue against because I just made it up"
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Post Post #3131 (isolation #102) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:03 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 3129, Thor665 wrote:Back up this gak some more please.

Says the guy voting an obvtown newbie.
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Post Post #3136 (isolation #103) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:18 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 3134, AxleGreaser wrote:since then Muffin moved off you, but I wouldn't count on that being permanent.

You are correct. I would happily lynch him or thor.
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Post Post #3165 (isolation #104) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:23 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 3146, TierShift wrote:There's a thing I want to know, though. Yesterday, you were pretty much set for lynching pere and I believe you townread thor (didn't you?).

I think if you go back you'll find I got off the Pere wagon with time to spare, stating that I was no longer confident he would flip scum. With deadline looming and nobody else being a viable lynch candidate I guiltily voted Pere rather than no-lynch which IMO is just as good as a mislynch for scum.

Here is how my townread of Thor went during D1:

Image
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Post Post #3166 (isolation #105) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:29 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 3159, Thor665 wrote:I'm saying some of the quotes you provided are "padded out" (i.e. made larger seeming) by conversation about me.

They're direct quotes, I haven't padded anything.

If you think my analysis is incorrect, feel free to do your own and show me the error of my ways. I'm open to being convinced, but somehow I think you'll just keep going "NUH UH" instead of doing anything useful.
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Post Post #3172 (isolation #106) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:04 am

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In post 3170, TierShift wrote:Your paint skills are majestic.

Over 9000 hours in mspaint, bro.

Bow down to the master. :lol:
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Post Post #3187 (isolation #107) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:45 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 3182, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3166, Muffin wrote:
In post 3159, Thor665 wrote:I'm saying some of the quotes you provided are "padded out" (i.e. made larger seeming) by conversation about me.

They're direct quotes, I haven't padded anything.

If you think my analysis is incorrect, feel free to do your own and show me the error of my ways. I'm open to being convinced, but somehow I think you'll just keep going "NUH UH" instead of doing anything useful.

No - it's a valid question from my part. Where do you think I went with 'quality' as a shift there?
You claimed I did.
Where did I and how?

I didn't.
At all.

Thrice you've disagreed with the analysis I did. Stop dodging it. If you think I'm wrong or misrepresenting you, show me Shiro's posts the way I ought to have seen them.
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Post Post #3188 (isolation #108) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:49 am

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It should be obvious the bit about "quality" was paraphrasing.

First you said the number of name mentions was not sufficient. Then you said I misrepresented the posts, and something something the degree of mentions.

So show me the right way to interpret those posts.

If you don't, it's because you can't.
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Post Post #3192 (isolation #109) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:28 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 3175, reinoe wrote:Also could someone ask me some questions?

What is your read on Thor?
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Post Post #3194 (isolation #110) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:29 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 3191, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3187, Muffin wrote:Thrice you've disagreed with the analysis I did. Stop dodging it. If you think I'm wrong or misrepresenting you, show me Shiro's posts the way I ought to have seen them.

That's not what I'm disagreeing on.

YOU claimed I had asserted a quality instead of quantity - being a shift from my original statement.
I am asking YOU to back that up.
I can't prove something you said that I think is made up - that's not a valid thing to ask me to do.
Unless this is admission you're making gak up? Is that what this is? I can work with that.

You can't do it, can you? You can't show why my interpretation of Shiro's posts is wrong. You can't show what a "proper" interpretation of them is.

Gee, why not, Thor?
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Post Post #3198 (isolation #111) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:32 pm

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In post 3195, Thor665 wrote:The quality over quantity thing.
I did say something that it is easy to take as quantity - but you then accused me of shifting to quality and changing the goalposts.
That was made up gak on your part - T/F?

I tried twice to look at quantity. You shot it down both times. Flimsily. So if it's not the two ways I've tried to show it quantitatively, and it's not qualitatively, then why can't you show evidence to back up your statements about Shiro?

Why not?
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Post Post #3199 (isolation #112) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:33 pm

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In post 3196, Thor665 wrote:No piss off, dude.
I can back up what I said.

Obviously you can't, or you'd have done it already.
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Post Post #3201 (isolation #113) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:36 pm

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In post 3200, Boonskiies wrote:If I was a SK, why the hell would I try to draw the NK's? I'd want other people to die.

Since you admit you no longer think Thor is town, I would like you to vote him please.
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Post Post #3204 (isolation #114) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:01 pm

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In post 3203, Thor665 wrote:I got called out when I tried to push a completely weak-ass case on a newbie obvtown lurker, and now I'm feeling cornered so I'm voting the guy who called me on my bully tactics

ok
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Post Post #3206 (isolation #115) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:02 pm

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Thor: "I can back up what I said"
Muffin: "lol do it then, show me why I'm wrong"
Thor: "no, I'll just vote you instead and pretend to be angry"
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Post Post #3212 (isolation #116) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:19 pm

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Okay, to recap:

Thor parks the vote on shiro for "mostly gut and wagon placement", doesn't elaborate on "wagon placement" and then sits on the vote for something like 15 pages
Spoiler: write him a citation
In post 2556, Thor665 wrote:
Vote: Shiro

In post 2696, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2694, Scripten wrote:I don't think he's really pushing a wagon, tho. He's got a vote out and he's initiating an argument, but 1v1-ing just doesn't seem pro-town.

The only way that becomes an issue is if everyone else treats it as a 1 v 1. Otherwise it is simply two players cross voting - aka, two wagons.

Shiro is scum due to gut and wagon placement.

In post 3028, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2963, Flubbernugget wrote:Would wagon if boons, iz, dave, and you get sorted out.

So you have stronger scumreads on all of them.
I think it's safe to say a Thor wagon is a non-starter.

Can you describe your case on the other three - just a quick nugget sort of explanation - you feel very empty to me right now and I'd love to flesh you out.

In post 2971, Shiro wrote:@thor Hey since axl bored you and you didn't answer him mind answering to Shiro why the placement on the Pere wagon was scummy ?

Do you think that your wagon placement looks townish or null?

In post 2974, AxleGreaser wrote:and if instead of being a hardSmurf and saying no you find it... you had tried youd have realised your error and Id have moved on days ago,.... (and wasted lots less time)
as it is, I see you claiming, reclaiming, and insisting on, one basis for your read then oops no its another.

And yet, despite all that, you actually go nowhere with it.
Proving my point that it was empty work.
So - no, I have no guilt in "wasting" your time. Your intent was to waste mine also apparently, and at least mine wasn't done intentionally.

In post 2979, T S O wrote:Thor, will answer tomorrow - literally falling to sleep.

Sure, I'll quote this to help me remember.
Though that does remind me.

@Goodmorning - remember when you lied to me twice yesterday about answering that question about wagon analysis? You ever planning to do that - or was it all lies from top to bottom?

Shiro calls him on it and he goes with the "I was mistaken" defense
Spoiler: oops lol i was thinking of someone else
In post 3083, Thor665 wrote:I'm mixing you up with someone else in my head, clearly.

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.

Shiro then posts the relevant dates to show that Thor was talking out his ass when he said Shiro was "taking forever". I decide to look into Thor's "case" against Shiro
Spoiler: Factual Stretch Armstrong
In post 3089, Muffin wrote:
In post 3083, Thor665 wrote:I'm mixing you up with someone else in my head, clearly.

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.

Cute misrep.

Here's the "wall" in question, about Anen. I note without surprise that the first line explicitly shows Shiro's diminishing scumread on Anen. Given the proximity of deadline I do not see any internal inconsistency there.

Contrarily, you're now stretching the facts to fit your vote.

Thor claims "oh yeah it was someone else nameless" but can't say who he allegedly mixed shiro up with. Thor then says "look how many posts about Anen/Pere" which I took to mean quantity.
Spoiler: No it was the other other guy
In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:@Axle - so you cannot state a read on Shiro then?

@Shiro - some other lurksack.

@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

So I go back and look at mentions
Spoiler: I just did a quick CTRL+F and found roughly equal number of mentions
In post 3099, Muffin wrote:
In post 3088, Shiro wrote:Who did u even mix me up with ?

In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:@Shiro - some other lurksack.
In other words, you can't think of someone you can pin it on?

@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

Prior to #2558, instances of "pere" in Shiro's ISO: 8
instances of "anen" in Shiro's ISO for the same period: 7

Seems like a misrep to me, bud. Flow of Shiro's thoughts are evident to me, and seem reasonable for someone w a town mindset.

You're doing a really bad job selling Shiroscum.

Thor decides that's not good enough
Spoiler: Can anything appease him?
In post 3108, Thor665 wrote:I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.

So I go back again and look at the number of posts as a whole that mention Pere or Anen (or both). Remember kids, all this is because Thor is asserting that Shiro disproportionately mentioned one over the other prior to voting Pere.
Spoiler: Why isn't he showing us this himself if he thinks my analysis is wrong?
In post 3127, Muffin wrote:Prior to and including the vote in question:

....

So, yeah. 3 posts seem to be mostly about pere, and 4 mostly about anen, including one that is sort of about both of them. Not to mention if you go through them chronologically there is a clear progression of reads. Do you want to try your pathetically-bad argument again?

In before Thor just restates the same argument ignoring the factual evidence that he is full of shit.
In before "yeah but it's the QUALITY of the mentions, on some subjective scale it's impossible to argue against because I just made it up"

Thor decides that no, this isn't good enough either:
Spoiler: Perfectionist my ass
In post 3129, Thor665 wrote:So when I said 'thoughts' you went with 'names' and decided that was legit.

Your Pere quotes are pretty heavily padded out with conversation about Thor and you know it.
Back up this gak some more please.

And despite repeated prompts for him to just do his own analysis if he thinks mine is so bad....
Spoiler: He just won't. Like a stubborn child
In post 3166, Muffin wrote:
In post 3159, Thor665 wrote:I'm saying some of the quotes you provided are "padded out" (i.e. made larger seeming) by conversation about me.

They're direct quotes, I haven't padded anything.

If you think my analysis is incorrect, feel free to do your own and show me the error of my ways. I'm open to being convinced, but somehow I think you'll just keep going "NUH UH" instead of doing anything useful.


So, dear town:
  • I don't see any town motivation in refusing to post a summary of Shiro's posts, with his own analysis
  • I don't see any town motivation in arguing semantics while refusing to do the above
  • I do see scum motivation for both


Please vote Thor. It is a quality wagon and you should all sheep it for great justice
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Post Post #3213 (isolation #117) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:21 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 3207, Thor665 wrote:It's funny that you're accussing me of dodging yet are unable to talk to me.

And by funny I mean stupid.

In post 3208, Thor665 wrote:I'm not stuttering here - I expressed my issue and thoughts VERY clearly.
Yet you can't handle them?

BullSmurf.

You're faking.

Sweetheart, if you think the way I've interpreted Shiro's posts is wrong, then you should show an analysis of Shiro's posts that points to scum.

You can't. Why not?
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Post Post #3254 (isolation #118) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:57 pm

Post by Muffin »

Holy shit Thor, are you really this dense or is it just an act?
In post 3202, Thor665 wrote:I made a statement about amount.

You translated that to "number of times a name is mentioned"
Your exact words were "look
how many
thoughts were posted about Anen". I interpreted that as "number of mentions". Obviously you felt that that is the wrong interpretation. Fine.

Then, when I point that out - you shift to "percentage of posts...but I'll just count posts where the name is mentioned and pay no attention to the amount that each is actually discussed"
I did not use the term "percentage". You pulled that out of your ass. I quoted every post in Shiro's ISO that I felt was about either Anen or Pere. If you have a problem with that, don't be so vague next time.

You know that's not what I meant and are dicking around.
That's your opinion. I am not a mind reader.

When I call you on THAT we go into this game where you claim I changed the goalposts to "quality".
Except I never did.
I exhausted every definition in my head for "how many thoughts were posted about a player". I see no other way to count "thoughts posted about" someone. You shot down the only two ways I could think of to quantify them. So what else should I have assumed but quality? You were the one that used the phrase "degree of mentions" as if that means anything concrete at all.

Here's how this works. You have two options and two only:

  1. Post your own list/comparison of the number of Shiro's thoughts posted about Anen vs. thoughts about Pere, since you seem to disagree so strongly with mine. It should be easy for you to do.

    or


  2. STFU
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Post Post #3256 (isolation #119) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:02 pm

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I'm happy to wait for you to post a list of posts.

But you can't do it, can you Thor? You'll just come back with faux-righteous indignation and dodge the question for the umpteenth time.
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Post Post #3272 (isolation #120) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:53 pm

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In post 3225, Boonskiies wrote:I'm not a good town player, let's be honest. I suck while I'm town and make no logic.

I hate hate hate this argument.

"I play such-and-such way as town, therefore bla bla bla"

If you know your own meta, then your meta is useless.

I've said this so often I'm putting it in my sig.
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Post Post #3324 (isolation #121) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:23 am

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In post 3311, Thor665 wrote:Yo, Muffin, back up your gak more - because I'm not unvoting you

Implying I give a flying fuck.

You got caught. You've been asked like 15 times to back up your retarded case on Shiro but you can't do it. Gee, I wonder why that is?
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Post Post #3327 (isolation #122) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:12 am

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In post 3311, Thor665 wrote:First off - let's rebut "name mentions" I give you Post #2434 or 2436

Awww our little Thor is making progress! He's still throwing a temper tantrum but he's at least doing what he should have done many pages ago!

Okay so that brings it to, what, something like 5 anen posts and 3 pere posts? That's great and all but you haven't addressed what I perceive to be a clear progression of reads. Voting a townread D1 at deadline is not as scummy as you're trying to paint it to be. Nobody knows anything D1.

You've done nothing to dissuade me from the conclusion that you're just trying to bully town into mislynching a newbie.
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Post Post #7211 (isolation #123) » Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:16 pm

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In post 7183, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 7178, goodmorning wrote:dave was obvTown. Lynching obvTown in a multiball game is very very bad of Town.

no offense to Dave but I'm a better player. Thor also has a point that a large number of town DID support his wagon.

but muffins modkill SHOULD have ended the day.

Yeah I'm sorry about that.

FWIW I wanted to start a discussion about theory. I used an example from this game solely as an example. I personally feel that I didn't compromise anything, but the powers that be disagreed, and again I'm sorry about that.
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