NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

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Post Post #23  (isolation #0)  » Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:04 pm

/confirm

I'm 18.

Vote: Scripten

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Post Post #36  (isolation #1)  » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:50 pm

I now support Csaro's lynch also.

Scripten's drunk post is also a policy lynch.

People should vote one or the other, my RVS stage is over.

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Post Post #64  (isolation #2)  » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:04 am

In post 40, Egg wrote:Thor, what are your thoughts on my Pere vote?

Indifferent.

In post 43, Cho wrote:Cho claimed Mafia 2-Shot Even-Night Bulletproof Vigilante in the neighborhood last night.

VOTE: Cho

I believe the claim.

Congratulations, you are a pro-scum and weak player who appreciates even worse gambits than Nero Cain.

In post 46, TierShift wrote:
In post 23, Thor665 wrote:Vote: Scripten

Why is this not a selfvote?

:neutral:
This is almost as derp as self-voting. Why would we even want to discuss that idiocy?

In post 60, T S O wrote:This is the first game I have ever seen from Csareo where his opening post was not astoundingly scummy. He must be Town!

What was his alignment in those other games?

Unvote.
Vote: Csareo

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Post Post #65  (isolation #3)  » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:04 am

In post 61, goodmorning wrote:Yes, I'm in a Neighbourhood with 3 others and Cho. No, I don't think we can say there's absolutely Scum in the Neighbourhood, though it is likely.

Maybe.
It's multi-neighborhood though.
Kind of works with the Masquerade theme I suppose.

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Post Post #71  (isolation #4)  » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:07 am

In post 67, T S O wrote:BE's Mind Mafia, page 1, enter Csareo.

He was town in that one. I don't know his alignment in the other.

I find that no particularly different in scumminess and usefulness than his first post here.

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Post Post #74  (isolation #5)  » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:09 am

In post 68, T S O wrote:Although, I mean, you could theoretically see the post yourself with a little bit of detective work.

This is true.
Or...I could make the person commenting about it do some work and provide the information for all. I know which I find both more pro-town and less effort. :lol:

PEdit - @TSO - yes, both to the neighborhood comment and the Csareo comment.

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Post Post #79  (isolation #6)  » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:14 am

In post 75, TierShift wrote:
In post 64, Thor665 wrote:
In post 43, Cho wrote:Cho claimed Mafia 2-Shot Even-Night Bulletproof Vigilante in the neighborhood last night.

VOTE: Cho

I believe the claim.

Congratulations, you are a pro-scum and weak player who appreciates even worse gambits than Nero Cain.

VOTE: TierShift
Deal with it.

Wow, such brilliant play, be still my heart - your scumhunting is of high standards and proves my point wrong.

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Post Post #132  (isolation #7)  » Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:28 pm

Unvote: Csareo
Vote: TSO

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Post Post #136  (isolation #8)  » Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:49 pm

In post 135, TobyLoby wrote:I don't think Boons anything is obvious.

It's obviously scummy though, so work with that.

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Post Post #156  (isolation #9)  » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:08 pm

I support killing Csareo via Vig.
I give even odds that he's town but I still am saying that.

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Post Post #170  (isolation #10)  » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:19 pm

In post 158, Csareo wrote:
In post 156, Thor665 wrote:I support killing Csareo via Vig.
I give even odds that he's town but I still am saying that.

Then why would you want to use a vigilante shot? How do you know there's a vigilante?
You do know using a vig shot fastens lylo by one day, so it is almost always scum motivated to use.

Maybe I'm a Vig and calling my shot.
I do not think your death will hinder town.

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Post Post #177  (isolation #11)  » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:22 pm

In post 173, Csareo wrote:I think you would be suprised.

Guess we'll find out one a Vig shoots you.

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Post Post #217  (isolation #12)  » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:52 pm

In post 215, Csareo wrote:If you first tell me how I'm appeasing TSO. I am pretty confident the dudes scum.
It's just if I push it any longer I'm going to be hanged.

:facepalm:

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Post Post #235  (isolation #13)  » Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:08 pm

In post 223, Aneninen wrote:@Those who're scumreading them: what's the case against TSO?

I agree with Csareo that it is odd that TSO left his vote on him while defending him. It shows a disconnect between action and vote that I find worthy of a vote.

@Csareo - welcome to where I was pages ago. I agree with you, you should be vigged.

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Post Post #253  (isolation #14)  » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:43 am

In post 248, Nero Cain wrote:I don't know if 561, 563 and 565 make me want to climb in the fetal position and cry or pl the fuck out of wegurts.

So in the future wegurts will join the game?
That's scary.

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Post Post #256  (isolation #15)  » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:32 am

Well...that's actually scum 101, Nero :lol:

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Post Post #258  (isolation #16)  » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:39 am

In post 187, Nero Cain wrote:So when I first read the game I thought Csaro was a lil' to "try hard" but his wagon went rather fast and that worries me but I'd prob be ok with his vig.

This is what you said about him.
Walk me through why it is such an unlikely scum comment from you?

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Post Post #259  (isolation #17)  » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:39 am

Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be scumbuddies. But that's all I get out of it.

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Post Post #261  (isolation #18)  » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:47 am

Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.

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Post Post #265  (isolation #19)  » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:26 am

In post 265, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 263, Thor665 wrote:second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.

maybe so but I can be plenty wishy washy as town.

I'll agree with that, though it doesn't affect my stance.

In post 266, Egg wrote:
In post 263, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption


Why? Also, if you're right, isn't Nero more likely town for seeming to genuinely assume there is no evidence for it?

Why? Because there are 21 players in this game.
And I could easily argue that he's more likely scum for trying to act like there's no reason to think that because scum are the only ones with legit evidence about the question and he's trying to cover for that knowledge but overplayed his hand.

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Post Post #272  (isolation #20)  » Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:02 pm

In post 269, T S O wrote:If anyone who's not Csareo has questions for me I'll answer them too.

My question is why are you bothering to address this when no one is sheeping his logic on your meta, which is your expressed issue with his stuff.
I will agree with you - I don't think he knows your meta from Adam.
Spare us the wall and play the rest of the game?

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Post Post #294  (isolation #21)  » Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:45 pm

In post 275, T S O wrote:
In post 272, Thor665 wrote:
In post 269, T S O wrote:If anyone who's not Csareo has questions for me I'll answer them too.

My question is why are you bothering to address this when no one is sheeping his logic on your meta, which is your expressed issue with his stuff.
I will agree with you - I don't think he knows your meta from Adam.
Spare us the wall and play the rest of the game?


k.

why are you voting me?

For lulz ;)
Also for my stated reasoning;
In post 235, Thor665 wrote:I agree with Csareo that it is odd that TSO left his vote on him while defending him. It shows a disconnect between action and vote that I find worthy of a vote.

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Post Post #329  (isolation #22)  » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:08 pm

In post 309, T S O wrote:Or it just shows that I tend to votepark and be forgetful as town. How do you know it's the former?

Because the former makes more sense to me than someone forgetting where their vote is within such a short time of making it.
Your answer here makes me want to vote you more - not less.

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Post Post #332  (isolation #23)  » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:11 pm

In post 330, T S O wrote:Well, it's great that you want to vote me even more now. Maybe you're actually going to- wait, you're already voting me.

The whole point of my answer, though, is that I can actually back up my meta of voteparking - not with examples, but with actual quotes of me saying I votepark. It's a recurrent habit, but it -is- my playstyle.

Lay them on me then.

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Post Post #343  (isolation #24)  » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:43 pm

In post 334, T S O wrote:"Regarding the vote, I don't really know. I tend not to vote much and I tend to votepark."

That's from Finagling Hills. p sure I can provide more later but I have to go to bed.

That's not how you link to quotes on a forum.

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Post Post #370  (isolation #25)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:42 am

In post 352, T S O wrote:
In post 343, Thor665 wrote:
In post 334, T S O wrote:"Regarding the vote, I don't really know. I tend not to vote much and I tend to votepark."

That's from Finagling Hills. p sure I can provide more later but I have to go to bed.

That's not how you link to quotes on a forum.


I guess I never heard how to link quotes from a locked forum.

Like this;
viewtopic.php?p=5243294#p5243294

Will there be other examples or is the one example it?

In post 369, PeregrineV wrote:Vote: Scripten

I don't think you get to naked vote at this stage of the game - reads and thoughts please.

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Post Post #371  (isolation #26)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:42 am

And I townread Scripten.

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Post Post #376  (isolation #27)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:20 am

In post 373, Izariael wrote:
In post 371, Thor665 wrote:And I townread Scripten.


Could you elaborate a bit? What are you seeing that I'm not?

Well, your presented case on him is pretty paper thin as stands, so it's not like you're even seeing anything.
My read on him is more one of gut and 'I agree with that' but I like how he singled out Tier as looking town and didn't mention GM - which is where I'm at and feels a logical town place to be rather than a scum looking to toss out some easy town reads.

As far as I can tell your case on him is made up of buzz words and dings him for being non-committal more than anything.
On Page 16 of a large.
After you just got done being non-committal in some of the reads you were offering.
Meh.
We had players who were 'non-posting' at that stage.
We had players who had been strongly committal and then reversed.
We haven't had a decent wagon yet (showing how non-committal most of the players are, quite frankly).
We have no town leadership.
I say that with an awareness that I am known for early crusades, and I haven't felt my teeth bite in yet.
So, basically your case is, to my mind, 'he is a player in this game'

In post 374, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 370, Thor665 wrote:I don't think you get to naked vote at this stage of the game - reads and thoughts please.


It's not naked, it's more an acceptance that Izraeil probably knows better than I at this point, and last time I thought they were scum, ignored them, and we lost.

Of course, an actual read will give me a better idea. Is there a reason you think he is particularly town?

:neutral:

Unvote: TSO (who still owes me more links)
Vote: Pere

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Post Post #388  (isolation #28)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:28 pm

In post 380, T S O wrote:hey big t

viewtopic.php?p=5179085#p5179085

my writing's in bold.

I still have yet to see you vote parking someone while calling them town and/or defending them.
Do you do that too?

In post 385, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 36, Thor665 wrote:I now support Csaro's lynch also.

Scripten's drunk post is also a policy lynch.

People should vote one or the other, my RVS stage is over.

I found Csaro's post refreshingly direct. What about them makes you want to lynch him?

Since when have drunk posts been a policy lynch?

1. I found it annoying that he was taking derp fake claims serious and extending the derp fake claim discussion.
2. Since always, for me.

Your post here is shockingly empty.

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Post Post #394  (isolation #29)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:42 pm

In post 389, T S O wrote:
In post 388, Thor665 wrote:I still have yet to see you vote parking someone while calling them town and/or defending them.
Do you do that too?


To the best of my knowledge, not usually, but I can guarantee if I went through all my games I'd probably find a pile of examples of me doing it.

I'm not fucking looking anything else up for you, though, since you were so kind as to make me waste my time before explaining that the examples had to be specific.

I kind of expected them to be specific, honestly. My issue with you was not 'he left his vote somewhere for a long time'
My issue was 'he left his vote on someone that he was calling town'
If you did that as a common thing (as you said) I expected the examples to reflect that you often had your vote on people you were defending.
What you have shown is that you don't move your vote a lot, and that in one game you were claling someone scum while voting someone else you also were calling scum.
I have no idea why you thought your links were an answer to my issue - am I missing something?

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Post Post #396  (isolation #30)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:44 pm

In post 392, Scripten wrote:
In post 368, Izariael wrote:Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten


This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.

It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?

Also, Cho was tied with TSO at three votes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.

I actually missed the bold and like the bold response to it.
Yeah - that's a terrible value call from Izarieal.

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Post Post #401  (isolation #31)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:57 pm

I'd hammer him if it was near deadline and he was at L-1.

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Post Post #416  (isolation #32)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:50 pm

In post 403, T S O wrote:
In post 401, Thor665 wrote:I'd hammer him if it was near deadline and he was at L-1.


Is there anyone you wouldn't do this to?

Yes. Though not many currently.
Considering that I am on record that a no lynch is preferable to voting a town read I really wish the rest of you would get it in gear.

In post 411, Cho wrote:I'm not a big fan of the Cho wagon.

I have no idea why, certainly you can't think Cho has been much of a townish looking player. He keeps posting empty commentary and seems aware that he is "disconnected" so it seems logical that people wouldn't like that and that the wagon has bite.

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Post Post #429  (isolation #33)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:40 pm

In post 427, Muffin wrote:The pigeon thing is getting really old, really fast.

You should have tried living through it's creation - I think I was over it by the third reference. When it showed up this game... :cry:

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Post Post #435  (isolation #34)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:55 pm

Could you vote Pere instead? You seemed to paint him with the same brush, and at least I know he's better than that. From what some people have said 'useless as Matthew McConaughey's shirts' is somewhat par for the course for Cho.
Request him to a Vig pool and vote Pere?

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Post Post #444  (isolation #35)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:22 pm

In post 437, Cho wrote:I think I'm fairly town for outing the neighborhood. Scum wouldn't do that.

Meh. If that's your laurel I stand by my comment.

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Post Post #446  (isolation #36)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:23 pm

In post 442, Goofyd00d wrote:
In post 435, Thor665 wrote:Could you vote Pere instead? You seemed to paint him with the same brush, and at least I know he's better than that. From what some people have said 'useless as Matthew McConaughey's shirts' is somewhat par for the course for Cho.
Request him to a Vig pool and vote Pere?


I don't see the point of pressuring Pere until he catches all the way up, like I said, pressuring Cho will pay off more right now.

:neutral:

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Post Post #447  (isolation #37)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:23 pm

I want to lynch Pere - get with the program.

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Post Post #449  (isolation #38)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:26 pm

In post 439, Izariael wrote:I don't understand what is so logical about throwing out:
In post 301, Scripten wrote:Nobody is really pinging hard either way.
In post 362, Scripten wrote:TSO seems mildly town. Toby and Tiershift feel town. (Tier feels quite town, in fact.)
Nero Cain looks a little suspicious. Cho feels like scum to me.

There is no analysis. It's just using "buzz words" as you said :down: and trying to be a convincingly active player.

Nah, using emotions to get reads isn't a buzzword. Saying 'I feel' is no better or worse than saying 'I think' and it makes you *feel* more scummy to me for even trying to paint it that way.

In post 439, Izariael wrote:Which reads were non-committal? My T S O read was a wholly-committed null at that point.

Is this sarcastic irony?
I hope it's sarcastic irony.

In post 439, Izariael wrote:Sure, but I haven't posted my reads on every one of the other 20 players yet. Doesn't mean I don't have reads on such players though. I still found Scripten's "here are some minor reads - look I'm participating" to be the scummiest read I have.

Your reads are not very impressive to me then.
Want to sheep me on Pere? Maybe he's alternate scum team to you, yeah?

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Post Post #451  (isolation #39)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:27 pm

In post 448, Cho wrote:In regards to your previous comment, Thor665, the fact that I'm self-aware shouldn't be equated with me being scum.

While we're both here, is there anything specific that you want me to look at? My computer is at 10% though so I'm not going to promise that results will come in the next 30 minutes.

I want you to look at and address what you wish to - if I had specific things for you to look at I'd ask you.
If you need guidance to help you scumhunt at this stage I feel that supports my earlier shirt based commentary and I still would like Goofy to sheep me now that he's admitting he's basically got the silliest vote in existence in play.

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Post Post #456  (isolation #40)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:33 pm

@Egg - Interesting, I got far worse on it. What eased him up for you?

@Goofy - sheep me.

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Post Post #459  (isolation #41)  » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:52 pm

In post 458, Izariael wrote:You can hope all you like, but I was srs. Nothing wrong with committing to a null.

Except trying to take credit for it while bashing someone offering mild alignment leans as weak - then there IS a problem with committing to it.

I COMMIT TO THIS NULL READ...by the way, this other guy isn't getting behind his town adn scum reads other than to say he "feels" this way about them. That's the scummiest thing in this thread!

I would be okay lynching Izariael now.

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Post Post #462  (isolation #42)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:36 am

In post 460, Izariael wrote:I'm not asking Scripten to perform micro-surgery on an ant. I'm asking him to give a simple explanation of why he has the reads he does.

No - you're calling him scummy for presenting his reads like that. That's my hangup with it.

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Post Post #477  (isolation #43)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:24 am

In post 463, T S O wrote:Does anyone want to explain why Pere's actually scum, without attached mindless rhetoric? I don't get it/I'm too lazy to read it.

For lack of participation, awkward sheeping, and general lack of buying into the game.

Why do you think he's not scum?

In post 471, Aneninen wrote:@Thor, "I want to lynch Pere - get with the program." – So do I. Join and you can have a sip of my leek-soup.

:neutral:

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Post Post #480  (isolation #44)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:45 am

You chose to explain it all the way out, all I was saying was 'vote Pere'.
I'll agree your vote (which you still aren't moving) is invalidated though.
Hint...hint...hint...

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Post Post #557  (isolation #45)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:37 pm

In post 482, T S O wrote:Well, I don't definitively think he's not scum, I guess. I just don't see why you're pushing this wagon so hard, given that, say, Cho has done the above, but her sheep is significantly worse than Pere's. Why aren't you pushing Cho, if those are your reasons?

I was already asked that question and also already answered it.
In post 435, Thor665 wrote:Could you vote Pere instead? You seemed to paint him with the same brush, and at least I know he's better than that. From what some people have said 'useless as Matthew McConaughey's shirts' is somewhat par for the course for Cho.
Request him to a Vig pool and vote Pere?

Want to discuss it any? I can do that.

In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball ( and ) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun. :]

:neutral:

Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
I presume it's a majority?

If not - then please explain this tell, I would LOVE to see you do that.

In post 555, goodmorning wrote:On the contrary. The existence of a Neighbourhood of such size implies that there is probably a Scum in it (though not definitively, as I've said).
In post 541, Muffin wrote:I would like to know, for my own scumhunting purposes, which players are in a neighbourhood with which others.

Because sometimes neighbourhoods result in weird coordination that can look like a scumteam but is not.

So... yeah.

I for one think there's some mileage in keeping some folks secret.

I did a bit of snippage here to put the thoughts together.
Yo, Goodmorning, why can you both believe that the neighborhood(s?) are likely to have scum in them but *also* be in support of keeping them secret?
Like, what's the benefit to town exactly?

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Post Post #558  (isolation #46)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:39 pm

In post 260, Nero Cain wrote:baring multiball, I'd know his alignment and thus would have no need to be wishy washy.

@Pere - also, Nero was actually the first one to say the word.
So...yeah, are you claiming scum?
I feel like you're claiming scum.
I'm going to vote you on the basis you're claiming scum.

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Post Post #559  (isolation #47)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:40 pm

@Everyone - Pere claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now.

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Post Post #561  (isolation #48)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:01 pm

How can it be incredibly distracting?

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Post Post #567  (isolation #49)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:15 pm

In post 566, Muffin wrote:
In post 558, Thor665 wrote:I'm going to vote you on the basis you're claiming scum.


Do it, then.

I am voting him.
You should do it too and be more useful.

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Post Post #569  (isolation #50)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:39 pm

Don't worry, you haven't even made that many footsteps.

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Post Post #583  (isolation #51)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:18 pm

In post 570, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 557, Thor665 wrote:Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
I presume it's a majority?


Let's find out together. Me being in them doesn't seem to have much bearing, so let's just look.

NY169 : 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY173: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY172: 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY171: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY170: 19 players, 3 mafia
NY167: 17 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY166: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK (in this)
NY165: 24 players, 5 mafia + SK (ran this)
NY164: 24 players, 3 mafia + 4 mafia (in this)
NY161: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY143: 21 players, 3 mafia + 3 mafia (in this) (2011)
NY137: 21 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY134: 22 players, 5 mafia

It seems 3 years and 35 Large Normal games ago, there was a 21 player game with 2 scumteams.
So, yes, a large majority were not.

Adjusted that for how it was used in the discussion.
Adding in the other SK ones changes it to a 6/13 ratio.
Meaning, roughly, 50%

So...yeah, I think that is a safe assumption to have in your head Day 1.
Also, you called me scum for bringing up multiball...in relation to a discussion where someone brought up multiball...so, yes, I do think that's weird on your part.

And, really, "changing your reason upon consideration of new information is scummy"
Pull the other one, it has bells on.

I don't have a lot of sheep yet.
Why are people scared of this - he is declaring scum.
If you don't think he is then you should probably explain why you don't find the commentary scummy. Because I find it five alarm chilli level.

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Post Post #584  (isolation #52)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:18 pm

Oh, or 4/7 if we only count games with 21+

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Post Post #585  (isolation #53)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:19 pm

Still basically 50%, but...yeah.

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Post Post #586  (isolation #54)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:22 pm

In post 575, AxleGreaser wrote:If that game was balanced with this player base (scum won) could you link me to 21P multiball game you thought was balanced?
Ive never played in a multi. So prefrably also a multi that wont hurt if I read it.

Your question is pointless because even Pere, in arguing against the idea, managed to provide multiple examples.

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Post Post #589  (isolation #55)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:36 pm

That also doesn't matter. I don't even wish to get into a 'is or isn't this multiball' discussion and never did - it's not germane to any issue on the table.

If you have an opinion about Pere calling me scummy for mentioning multiball or how I'm calling him scum for doing so - that would be excellent discussion to have.

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Post Post #590  (isolation #56)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:40 pm

In post 126, Goofyd00d wrote:Considering 4 is the meta for almost garunteed, I would say 5 people in a hood contains a scum, and maybe even multi factions.

Here's another mention of multiball that didn't bother Pere.

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Post Post #605  (isolation #57)  » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:45 pm

In post 591, Cho wrote:Do you understand this, or rather, follow my train of thought?

I follow your train of thought but find it very surface oriented.
The point isn't that he called me scum for multiball commentary - the point is how and why he did it considering the conversation it was brought up in.

Does that make sense?

In post 597, PeregrineV wrote:Except Multiball means 2 scumteams, as per the definition: "Serial Killers and other one-person groups do not count; the term is specific to scum groups of multiple players."
So, your attempt to use SKs to discredit me is pretty blatant.
Your attempt to use 24 player games as examples is also blatant. I included them for reference, but 24 is not 21, and the setup and balance for each is different.
So, try 25%. And recently, none of them.

I will agree the wiki defines multiball as notincluding SKs.
I will also say I have been in a game witha 2-player SK.

That said - if you look at my comment to Nero it clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'

Also, if I had clarified SK - I understand that 'SK hunting' is also considered a scumtell (or SK tell) so I don't actually see the point of even trying to draw the difference here.

Do you disagree that my comment means what I said it means here? And if you do, please explain why.

In post 598, PeregrineV wrote:Except you didn't say 21+. If you had, we wouldn't be discussing this.

:neutral:

Well...actually, yes, I said exactly that.

In post 557, Thor665 wrote:Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.


So I should add 'lying to butter up a case' to your scumtells then :lol:
You're trying to defend yourself in a pedantic manner.
It looks scummy to me.
What's up with this? Why don't you walk me through how and why you actually think your catch on me is scummy and also why it doesn't apply to Nero or Goofy - that would be interesting to hear moreso than the weak word dance you're doing now.

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Post Post #614  (isolation #58)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:37 am

In post 611, PeregrineV wrote:
Do you disagree that my comment means what I said it means here? And if you do, please explain why.

Try this format
-Thor's comment (linked)
-What Thor meant
Then I'll be able to answer it, since right now I'm not sure what you are asking.

I asked this: That said - if you look at my comment to Nero it clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'
About my post mentioning multiball.
That you called scummy.
This is not complicated - answer the question. You're the one who analyzed my post and found it alignment indicative - why not expand on your work?

In post 611, PeregrineV wrote:My bad, I did misread that.
I assumed that you wanted to point out 21 player games that were multiball, because we are in a 21 player game that you stated was obviously multiball.
You may now argue for the nature of 21+ games, but I'll state in advance that changing the facts changes the arguement, esp. about something like mafia game size.

I did not "change the facts" you did, or you misunderstood them. I am reminding you of what I clearly said.
Would you like to change your answer now that you understand the question?
Does it affect your read on me?
I also would LOVE you to point out where I said the game was obviously multiball.

In post 611, PeregrineV wrote:-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.). However, I don't think it is in your nature to "slip", nor to be so bold nor so brazen about possibly having a scumrole.

So it is suspect because...?

In post 611, PeregrineV wrote:-I already pointed out the differences between mentioning, speculating, and stating. You've been pushing everything based on my 501 statement, and instead of just letting it go (which I do sometimes), I proceeded to point out why you were wrong. You've since continued to push for my lynch, not for actually being wrong in my opinion, conclusion, or summary, but because I have that opinion, posted that conclusion, and backed up that summary. Making this another case of (strength of reaction) vs (strength of initial post) (see Scripten vote).

Actually I'm calling your entire use of logic here suspect and pointing out the double standard you are using n applying it and calling that scummy.
You have responded with further proof that you're either not really reading the game or are trying to bluster through my issues.
I don't feel like we're actually talking yet.
You're not talking openly, you're offering up misrepresented or half finished thoughts and then waving your hands wildly in the hopes this will go away.
I mean, look at the quote above. I asked you to explain how what I did was scummy - you didn't actually. You even admit that I wouldn't tend to do that as a slip which leaves...what exactly? If it wasn't a slip I was intentionally doing it? Okay...why? And why would it be scummy as opposed to, say, a town breadcrumb or something? Like, the logic just does not flow nor is it an answer as to why you concluded it was scummy.
I'm trying to talk with you.
Why are you dancing with me instead?

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Post Post #618  (isolation #59)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:06 am

In post 615, Scripten wrote: Do you think that scum have a better idea about the setup than town do?

I believe this.

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Post Post #620  (isolation #60)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:12 am

Scum know their team size, team name, and PR composition which gives them more info to go on than town. Hence - they have a better idea of the setup.

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Post Post #622  (isolation #61)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:21 am

I'm not making it easier on him, because, frankly, he's dancing around Pere's question and I think it was a valid question so I wished to ding at him a bit.

What is your read on Pere though, t the moment? Your current wagon is doing nothing, so I think a vote move would be good for you (or a LOT more noise about Anemian)

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Post Post #632  (isolation #62)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:55 am

In post 623, T S O wrote:I think you're definitely winning the argument, as you usually do - but I'm still not remotely sold on Pere-scum. I have been trying to get Aneninen-wagon on track, but everyone is busy voting your wagon. It's quite sad.

You Aneminen efforts are anemic.
I've been anting to work that joke in for a while - but it's very true in this case.
But, to act like my efforts are destroying yours...wow.

In post 625, PeregrineV wrote:Show me your comment that clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'.

Well, that would be this conversation;

In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be scumbuddies. But that's all I get out of it.

In post 260, Nero Cain wrote:baring multiball, I'd know his alignment and thus would have no need to be wishy washy.

In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.


Y'know, the one you called scummy on my part.

In post 626, T S O wrote:I mean, coming from my own perspective, when someone aggressively attacks me for what I perceive to be very little, I'm always going to kick back at them. I agree with you Pere's multiball comment made no sense, but from his perspective it's possible it did.

You did notice the odd standards he used in applying it and how the accusation came out of nowhere though, right? Because you're making me feel crazy.

In post 627, PeregrineV wrote:Let's start over.

My opinion on Thor:
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball ( and ) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.


Thor, what do you think of my opinion on you?

That it is scummy, unsupported, a double standard (triple, really) and lazy whilst being used as a smokescreen for doing nothing.
Also - that you cannot even justify it when asked to.

In post 629, davesaz wrote:I think it's pointless speculation that does nothing but introduce a good source of WIFOM. And the cloud of doubt just makes the participants in the discussion look scummy while making it harder to see scummy behaviors in others.

This is written by someone who is not paying attention to the issue or can't figure it out.
The conversation has NEVER been about whether it is or is not multiball.
You should read it again.
Then offer an opinion on the scumtells being advanced.

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Post Post #634  (isolation #63)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:33 pm

Then why were you trying to halt a conversation that wasn't happening and why are you not trying to advance the Egg wagon?

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Post Post #636  (isolation #64)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:43 pm

I do not find your desire to change up the conversation very functional - you ducked multiple questions and still failed to explain your logic.

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Post Post #641  (isolation #65)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:16 pm

In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:I thought we started over?

You indicated desire to do so and I never said anything about it one way or the other - yes.

In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:And I explained the logic about all of it. If you want to continue to press that you do not understand what I am saying, then say so.

I literally just did.

In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:If you disagree, then say so (and I think you did).

That is also correct.

In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:If you want to say you meant this
In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role. But that's all I get out of it.


when you said this
In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be scumbuddies. But that's all I get out of it.


Then say it. Or, say exactly what you meant using as many or as few words as possible.

No, I meant that when I specifically said the word multiball. As I said.
I put it in context to show just how silly your raised statement is.
Now please address it.

In post 638, davesaz wrote:
In post 634, Thor665 wrote:Then why were you trying to halt a conversation that wasn't happening and why are you not trying to advance the Egg wagon?

Doesn't matter to me if you discuss it. Just saying that I don't find it enlightening. Unless you think that merely having the discussion is itself a scumtell?
Which side of the argument should be suspicious? Don't answer that, I can guess your answer. Maybe as a 3rd party I should be even handed in who I suspect.
At least one of the participants has been posting about other things. I have not looked at the other participant to see if he's also casting a wider net. Perhaps I should.

Again - you are talking about a conversation that is not happening.
Do you agree with the logic of Pere's raised issue? Why/why not?

In post 640, T S O wrote:What are your thoughts on Aneninen?

I find him scummy.

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Post Post #643  (isolation #66)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:28 pm

In post 642, davesaz wrote:Since when is one RVS vote a wagon?

I have always refered to it as such and have no idea why people wish to argue about it every time I do.

What do you call a one vote wagon?

A one vote?

What about two votes? Is that a wagon, or is that two votes, or is it a tandem bicycle or what?

Why are you even debating the definition with me when it is clear what I was talking about whether or not you agree with my word choice?
Yes - you are well past the time to do some work.

Dave is a scum read now too.

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Post Post #649  (isolation #67)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:33 pm

In post 645, davesaz wrote:Ahem, that conversation up there. :up: Where you're discussing with Pere.

Yes, i agree we're having a discussion based around a scumtell wherein the word multiball is used.
But we're debating the scumtell.
We're not debating whether the game is or is not multiball.

In post 645, davesaz wrote:Making an accusation for mentioning it could be scum trying to make a bogus case, or it could be town trying to use the accusation as a way to get a reaction.

Which do you think it was and why?

In post 647, davesaz wrote:Only quoting the first sentence of my reply is a misrep.

What was I misrepping specifically?

In post 647, davesaz wrote: The point is not that you called it a wagon, it's that it was RVS. Which I freely admit so how can you call me scum for that?

Why am I not allowed to call an RVS scummy? Isn't that the entire basis of the purpose of RVS?

In post 647, davesaz wrote:Why would I call attention to it myself if I were scum? Not to mention that my other posts today are clearly lining up a thought process that one of you or Pere might be scum as a result of the big multiball hairball. Consider perhaps I'm choking on all that data, too busy figuring out whether it's TvT or not to look beyond it.

:neutral:

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Post Post #653  (isolation #68)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:10 pm

In post 651, PeregrineV wrote:You do not understand what I am saying (the logic of why I said it).

You disagree with what I'm saying? Or do you disagree with the logic which you do not understand?

I have stated the logic as I understand it, and said that I disagreed with it and asked for clarification on the logic if such exists.
You are playing word games.

In post 652, PeregrineV wrote:So when you said
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.


You meant:
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off [the existence] of any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.


In that case, probably best to say so, since multiball is a fairly precise term used to indicate multiple teams, not just multiple non-town killing roles.

In the meantime, I'll stick to my silly raised statement.

Yes, that is what I meant and indicated it is also clearly what I meant when taken in context and you were asked to assess that claim and then address how it does or does not affect your read.

Your method of doing so was to repeat what I said to you.
Kind of shrug.
And then state that you're sticking to the claim.

I will take this to mean you find that insane as a possible interpretation of what I meant.
Please describe what YOU think I meant.

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Post Post #654  (isolation #69)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:12 pm

I would like to clarify this is about post 10 in a series of posts which was; "Pere, please explain why you think that was a potential scumtell"
To which his best answer has, thus far, been "well, as scum you wouldn't be likely to slip but you brought up multiball so if it's multiball you're scum...oh, yeah, some other people did too in ways that are different than your way"

More votes now, yeah?

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Post Post #670  (isolation #70)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:25 pm

In post 655, T S O wrote:Would you help me vote Aneninen tomorrow if I go with this today?

Maybe. Maybe not.
If I have to buy your vote with that sort of weak promise then I don't want it.

In post 659, PeregrineV wrote:I'm not sure what the hell you were saying to Nero- maybe telling him he CAN be scum because it's a safe assumption that there is more than one non-town faction. In which case, not sure why you would think so, and not sure of your purpose in telling him that.

:neutral:
This post pretty much encapsulates the scum case on you.

I welcome anyone to go back to what I was saying to Nero and manage to get this info from the exchange.

I do not believe I have ever used the 'you're better than this' tell.
But you're better than this Pere. It's screwy. And you're acting like you're up to snuff, which makes it scummy.

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Post Post #671  (isolation #71)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:26 pm

In post 669, goodmorning wrote:I'm getting quite a lot off this multiball bit though, so that's good.

At least you're able to admit it's active scumhunting happening - half the player list hasn't figured that out yet.

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Post Post #695  (isolation #72)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:50 pm

In post 693, Nero Cain wrote:<----needs to start doing shit.

I agree with goofy. The chances of scum being in the hood is nearly 100%.

Is mine and Cho's the only hoods?

When did you claim to be in a neighborhood?
Neither Goofy or Scripten did either to my awareness.

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Post Post #697  (isolation #73)  » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:57 pm

I didn't say you would - should I be?

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Post Post #709  (isolation #74)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:16 am

In post 698, Nero Cain wrote:no

In post 695, Thor665 wrote:When did you claim to be in a neighborhood?


This just seems really silly though. Like what was your point?

I asked it because the way you phrased it didn't come across as a claim, but rather a comment on a previous claim.

Why did you wait to claim to be in a neighborhood till this moment?

In post 699, Nero Cain wrote:What do you think of scum being in the hoods?

Do you think that if there's more than two hoods they should claim so town atleast knows the number of hoods?

That it is likely.

Yes, i do think this.

I have said both of these things before and was even debating it with Goodmorning - why didn't you hop in on that?

In post 700, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 590, Thor665 wrote:
In post 126, Goofyd00d wrote:Considering 4 is the meta for almost garunteed, I would say 5 people in a hood contains a scum, and maybe even multi factions.

Here's another mention of multiball that didn't bother Pere.


That is on one level a factually true statement, You make lots of those habitually. ta.
(but I suppose its possible it may have bothered him but not been publicly examined yet for some reason. but never mind.)

It didn't 'bother' me much either.

I find this comment of yours to be quite different in nature to the other one.
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.

Why?

In post 700, AxleGreaser wrote:Do you actually think they are so very similar (tone, context, intent, and what not) and thus that anyone reading you saying one of them ought, form the same conclusion as when they read Goofy said the other?

Pere claims to find both of them scummy, so I suppose the answer is 'yes'.
I'm actually bewildered he finds either of them scummy, but he claims he does and is being strange about explaining them.
You seem to have missed all of this discussion though, and are asking me something meaningless.
It doesn't matter if I think he should or shouldn't - what matters is he claimed he did. Would you like to discuss that?

In post 700, AxleGreaser wrote:I am rather curious because I don't think you think that. I even think you wouldn't actually claim to think that as town or scum or 3rd party.

Pere *has* claimed this...so what do you think that makes him?

In post 700, AxleGreaser wrote:My conclusion either you are 4th party, or I misunderstand something. I know which is more likely.

:neutral:
What is a 4th party?

In post 700, AxleGreaser wrote:I am rather interested in the answer that you choose to give me to this question.

I am interested in your response now as well..

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Post Post #722  (isolation #75)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:51 am

In post 715, goodmorning wrote:ey

ey tier

you wanna stop kissing Smurf for five seconds and read thor again?

After he does I look forward to hearing what he should have seen.

A neighborhood just got claimed, how are you feeling about that?

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Post Post #728  (isolation #76)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:03 am

In post 726, T S O wrote:Are you feeling something I'm not, Thor?

Well, I'm not irritated by it in any way at all so - yes, I must be feeling something you're not.
I'm on open record that Neighbors are one of the most generically useless roles in existence - I could honestly not care less about whether we full reveal them or not.

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Post Post #733  (isolation #77)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:11 am

In post 729, Nero Cain wrote:Why should I have previously claimed I was in a hood? I'm back now and saw some hood talk so yeah.

Hood talk and claiming had happened sooner and during a period you were around and posting - you must have made a value call of not revealing it at that stage and then made a new one to reveal at this one. Why?

In post 730, T S O wrote:Meh.
I just got the feeling he expected people to praise the revealing of it or something.

That has less to do with the revealing and more to do with his motivation for the revealing. I would note that I was amongst the first to reveal neighbor info and have also not remotely indicated that I consider that a pro-town move. I have also asked people who consider full neighbor reveal as anti-town to explain why (with rather lackluster effort from Goodmorning to do so) and have not indicated that as anti-town or pro-town on their part either.

If your issue is Scripten expecting town vibes - then talk to him about that. The neighborhood thing is not the issue, the mentality and motivation are.

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Post Post #735  (isolation #78)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:24 am

In post 734, TierShift wrote:Are you serious? Why is iza's behaviour scummy? (As in, why are scum nore likely to do it than town, don't give a dumb answer)

The only reason that unexplained reads are scummy is because they are easily changeable.
That is the core definition of a null read as well.
I will agree that Izzy is making big noise about how well explained his null read was - but it doesn't change what a null read is nor does it change the only issue with unexplained reads.
Therefore, he's doing something, calling it townish, and complaining that someone is doing something different and calling it scummy - while blind to the fact that it is the same type of pro-scum play.
Making him either town who is dangerous to have in the game due to inability to read below the surface or scum.
Both making him a viable lynch option to me.

What's your issue with my stance?
Don't give a dumb answer.

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Post Post #742  (isolation #79)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:48 am

In post 736, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 733, Thor665 wrote:Why?

*meh* musta not noticed or cared.

Who are you in a hood with?

This does not fill me with hope for your reading comprehension.

I am holding off on revealing until Goodmorning manages to get back to me with explanations on the fear of revealing and why it is pro-scum in some way.

In post 738, TierShift wrote:Izzy looks like he believes in that strongly felt nullreads are more of a commitment than soft townreads, he really does. I was wondering why you didn't see that and instead focused on the sense he wasn't making and calling him scummy over it.

Okay, well, first off, that you saw and answered my comment makes me wonder why you didn't address Goodmorning's whine to you, clarify?

As to my answer to this - if he believes it then he meets the qualifier for terrible town, and if he doesn't he meets the qualifier for scum. I agree that both of those states can exist and disagree that either one makes him not a good lynch option. I am proud that you can perfectly read his attitudes, I do not have this skill and am left to scumhunt him. You shouldn't hold that against other people. Your raised issue appears to be that "Thor is scumhunting" now - because your issue is that I didn't immediately read him as town...is that right?

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Post Post #744  (isolation #80)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:09 pm

In post 743, TierShift wrote:You seem to be addressing me as though I've been Smurfing on you, which I haven't. What's up with the attitude?

It's a valid point I am raising - I want you to justify your issue. I am not saying you're doing anything bad (or good, for that matter), I am saying I want to understand your thoughts for why you are saying what you're saying.
Hint: I am scumhunting you.

In post 743, TierShift wrote:What gm whine?

Iso feature...
Though it just happened like a page ago and was addressed to you.
Basically a request to stop buddying me and re-read me - you're clearly reading the current stuff so why didn't you address it?

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Post Post #745  (isolation #81)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:10 pm

In post 742, Thor665 wrote:because your issue is that I didn't immediately read him as town...is that right?

@Tiershift

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Post Post #749  (isolation #82)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:56 pm

In post 745, Thor665 wrote:
In post 742, Thor665 wrote:because your issue is that I didn't immediately read him as town...is that right?

@Tiershift

Pretty pretty please with sugar on top, my dearest friend can you address the question you're avoiding and forgive me for my harsh tone and stop using it as a reason to not answer me, oh sugar sweet'ums?

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Post Post #753  (isolation #83)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:12 pm

In post 749, Thor665 wrote:
In post 745, Thor665 wrote:
In post 742, Thor665 wrote:because your issue is that I didn't immediately read him as town...is that right?

@Tiershift

Pretty pretty please with sugar on top, my dearest friend can you address the question you're avoiding and forgive me for my harsh tone and stop using it as a reason to not answer me, oh sugar sweet'ums?

If you're intentionally choosing to not answer the question you should say so in order that I may assess that as opposed to just thinking you're not actually noticing this post and need it repeated.

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Post Post #756  (isolation #84)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:28 pm

In post 754, TierShift wrote:Thor, to me it seemed obvious that he was in fact thinking that his strong commitment to nullreads meant something.

Though he didn't clarify this until after I pointed out the potential hypocrisy.

In post 754, TierShift wrote:That doesn't make him look scummy in my book, it's just a different (and wrong, imo) take on theory. You were stating that different take made him scummy, but that doesn't work for me and it seemed to me you were overly focusing on the words instead of the intent. That was the issue I had with your read on izi.

Please describe how the intent looks town?
Because I can see the intent as poor play and I can see the intent as scummy - I fail to see it as pro-town. Am I missing something?

In post 754, TierShift wrote:Only now have you said that this different take on theory might be scum faking it and you're insinuating that that is what you were thinking earlier. But you didn't say that earlier and I did not know.

I never indicated you should know until I said - though you appeared able to track his thoughts quite clearly whilst mine remain opaque. I personally think it was fairly clear what my issue is, but it's a false complaint to suggest that I was expressing poor play on your part to understand my issue beyond the idea that I was scumhunting him.

In post 754, TierShift wrote:So tell me what it is, what he was scummy for:
1. Getting his theory wrong
2. Possibly faking wrong theory

As I have already stated; #2. Why am I needing to repeat this? I was quite clear about it only a few posts back.

In post 754, TierShift wrote:You were arguing 1 and now you seem to be arguing 2. That's inconsistent.

I actually argued that #1 meant he deserved death, I never argued that it made him scummy. Even when you called out my post the commentary was that I would be okay lynching him, not that I said he was a top scum read. The only one changing any stances here is you - and you're trying to change what my stance was stated as - I have not tried to change anything. :neutral:

You have not really addressed why you had issue with me questioning him or finding his answers scummy.
I think answering the 'why was his stance pro-town' note would justify your stance, if you can do that.

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Post Post #757  (isolation #85)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:29 pm

In post 755, davesaz wrote:@thor, if you say one more time that TierShift is not answering the question, I'm going to want to know what question.
If you're trying to get an answer on the "goodmorning whine" then you're going about it the wrong way by quoting something completely different in your reminders.

TierShift was WELL aware of what I was asking about and just tried to answer it.
It is not my fault that you appear continually confused by what's going on.
In my opinion you need to read more carefully.

You remain a solid lynch option, and I do find you both scummy and anti-town.

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Post Post #761  (isolation #86)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:06 pm

And, so, you ask me questions about it to try to understand me,

Tell me again your issue with my expressed thoughts and challenge of Izzy?
Also, you still haven't addressed the 'how what he did Thor should have taken as town' thing. Which is the basis behind having any issue with what I said and did at all, because if you don't get that then it's quite reasonable for me to find it null or scummy and certainly to question it.

As to the rest I feel I answered quite specifically here what my thoughts were;
viewtopic.php?p=6268337#p6268337

Which lines up to what I first said to you here;
viewtopic.php?p=6268266#p6268266

Which also lines up with what I originally said, and you had issue with, here;
viewtopic.php?p=6261552#p6261552

Which shows that my stance, my answers, and my expressed opinion have remained the same.
So why is this confusing to you and why do you think anything has changed?

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Post Post #762  (isolation #87)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm

In post 760, TierShift wrote:presumably for messing up theory.

Pretty much this is as close as I can get to understanding your issue.
Except that it is literally nothing I have ever said - and is in fact something you decided I inferred.
And now you're sort of grumping about how the inference doesn't line up with my actions and statements.
Which really just says 'your inference is wrong -derp' to me.

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Post Post #799  (isolation #88)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:17 pm

In post 765, Aneninen wrote:Thor, are you scumreading TierShift?

I do not recall calling him scummy or voting for him at any point in this gameday.

In post 765, Aneninen wrote:I still think that my wagon length is absurd compared to the posts about me and to the amount of my posts.

I find it absurd you keep bringing it up, you're a wagon of three votes.
Three.

In post 776, TierShift wrote:Okay thor, I understand now. You captured the issue I had with your posting in 762. Just remember that if you say something like 'I want to lynch you now', it makes people think you scumread said person.

I will agree that if someone read that and decided to infer information from it without paying attention to what I was saying about my issue then, sure, they could get the wrong impression via that inference.

Don't know why you called it bad in any way though, as one would like to think that meant you analyzed it before making said value call.

In post 776, TierShift wrote:Just this one quote doesn't make sense. Haven't we both agreed that iza did not in fact produce scummy content (which I thought you were arguing) or town content (which you think I'm arguing, but I'm not!), but that the scripten scumread was null behaviour? Then how does the next quote in which you call him scummy for it make sense?
In post 756, Thor665 wrote:You have not really addressed why you had issue with me questioning him or finding his answers scummy.

Well...first off, his answers are scummy - that doesn't prove he is scummy, but his answers were screwy as all get out.
I said they were screwy as all get out.
In the perfect world of analysis, if he's town, he is town who is screwy as all get out.

You leapt to his defense and had issue with my conclusions as regards him - which, by definition, means you have to have a town read there or there would be no issue to raise with me and what I said.
If your read of him was 'null' for instance...that would mean that you would understand his reads were screwy and would have agreed with me and, if you had decided to call it out, your language would have been one of 'what scum motive do you see in his screwy logic' as opposed to your chosen track.

As I said, I founf your defense of him/attack of me straneg and illogical and I'm actually trying to get you to explain it.
Quoting something I said after that attack and acting confused by it is *not* helping me understand you.
I have been very open and clear with my thoughts.
You have not.
Stop that.

Back up your gak now please.
1. Explain your specific issue with how I approached him (even working within the misunderstanding you're now admitting to)
2. Then describe your chosen approach and why you thought it was a good approach.

That would be helpful.

In post 782, goodmorning wrote:
In post 742, Thor665 wrote:I am holding off on revealing until Goodmorning manages to get back to me with explanations on the fear of revealing and why it is pro-scum in some way.

I've already spoken as much as I want to speak on the subject.
It's a little late now, anyway.

Well...when you're asked "why shouldn't we, I am curious?"
And your answer is "because it be bad!" and nothing else...what did you expect?
If you gave a hang you did a bad showing for yourself and the belief system you claim to espouse.

In post 790, TierShift wrote:Yeah. But that's not enough to certainly know he's in a neighbourhood, now is it?

I would think my other comment of 'I am in a neighborhood and not claiming it yet' would remove all doubt.
And I'd be fascinated to hear all the theory roles that I might posses wherein I would know the game is multi-neighborhood without being in a neighborhood.

Stupid scum with Pre/Day talk or Neighborizer is all I can come up with at this point.

In post 798, hephaestus wrote:Sorry stupid question probably but are neighbourhoods beneficial to either town or scum in any way?

Do you know what a Neighborhood is? If so - why don't you tell us your opinion on this question.
If not there is the Wiki; http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Neighbor

How much of a newbie are you?

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Post Post #802  (isolation #89)  » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:42 pm

In post 800, hephaestus wrote:I don't really have any experience with neighbourhoods on or off site - they don't seem to make much of a difference to me especially when decided by the mod, besides making the game more dynamic or whatever. I guess that is why I asked though

Most people see minor value in them at best.

Goodmorning thinks there is some sort of pro-town aspect to them in some manner yet to be determined and may or may not be allowed to discuss it for fear of cluing in the scum to the brilliant advantage.

You may draw your own conclusions though.

What's your read on Pere by the by?

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Post Post #811  (isolation #90)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:05 am

@Axle - I find your response to me to focus mostly on the first question (a setup question) and to not address at all the other questions (scumhunting questions based off said setup) except to say 'later I will provide this.

Not particularly enthralled thus far, is what I'm saying. Maybe the expansion will become interesting.

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Post Post #813  (isolation #91)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:40 am

In post 812, AxleGreaser wrote:Is Thor scummy for mentioning Multiball? Is anyone else who did prior to him?
How plausible is it that a Town player might react as PereV did and think it was a scum tell?

Yes.

And your answer to these questions is...?

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Post Post #814  (isolation #92)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:40 am

Stop writing me essays to say frak all.

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Post Post #815  (isolation #93)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:41 am

In post 809, AxleGreaser wrote:In order to evaluate the alignment of PereV or you I will be examining the body of other work, and as I find significant parts of the interaction between both of you to be WAT(but assume I am confused), I will be primarily considering the parts of both your respective scum hunting where I think I understand what is going on. I neither understand Peres original point nor your strong focus on just that. (what other bits of his filter are also scummy?)

And here was your promise to future info.
If this was *not* a promise of future info that this post also said nothing at all and took a lot of words to accomplish that.

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Post Post #831  (isolation #94)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:32 am

In post 816, AxleGreaser wrote:In order to be convinced PereV is scum, and buy into your ´çase´/wagon I would need to see a continuing pattern of behaviour. I don´t believe your thread discussion with him or the points you have made do that.

What sort of "continuing pattern of behavior" do you expect to get out of an attack on multiball comments?
This seems like a standard that torpedoes many types of scumtells.

In post 817, AxleGreaser wrote:Thor: ¨and to not address at all the other questions (scumhunting questions based off said setup) except to say 'later I will provide this.¨

as a claim i had stated i would answer the questions you claimed i had not, but do it later.

I had in fact as far as i still can tell answered each point, if not then by now I have done it twice.

Yes, I will agree after saying you would answer things that you eventually answered them and that in between the two points I expressed interest in seeing answers given per your comment that you would do so.
I am not sure why we're discussing this.

In post 821, Izariael wrote:He seems to speak this way to anyone not agreeing with him. It irks me as a player, but I haven't played with Thor prior to this nor have I checked his previous games to know if this sneery, condescending tone of his is par for the course or if it could be alignment-indicative. I can't work past my personal bias to get any sort of read on him.

:facepalm:
Dear gawd, this is exactly the reason I made an alt - to get away from this gak. As far as I can tell if my join date is not as old and I post :lol: instead of :neutral: then I am considered a fun player.
If I do the other then I am the meanest mean of the seven means.

JUST BECAUSE I DISLIKE YOUR PLAY DOES NOT MEAN I AM A MEANIE-POO HEAD. MAYBE YOUR PLAY NEEDS TO BE ASSESSED. MAYBE YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT YOUR PLAY AND DEFEND IT IF IT IS GOOD. MAYBE IF YOU GET UMBRAGED AT ME QUESTIONING YOUR PLAY THEN IT IS NOT AS GOOD AS YOU'RE TRYING TO CONVINCE ME IT IS?

If I insulted you personally then say so and I'll apologize.
If I insulted your *play* then back your play up or get over it - I am alloed to not like your play decisions. That's a legit and fair stance to take.
Making it personal just clouds the waters and is a step you're choosing to take - not me.
I also dislike that play, fyi.

In post 821, Izariael wrote:@Thor: Drawing different conclusions or applying a different brand of logic than you doesn't make me terrible town. Nor does it make me scum.

It also doesn't make you good town nor does it suggest you are town. In fact, questioning questionable play is considered by me to be 'scumhunting'. because I do believe scum will do questionable play and I need to investigate it.

I will note that the other person defending you also didn't want to defend your play. Your play *is* questionable by more than just me, meaning that...yeah, there's probably something strange there - at which point yeah, you should expect people to address it. If you are unable to see why someone might question it then that's something you need to work on - maybe by asking me to explain why it's questionable in the first place, or defending why it isn't questionable at all. But just pointing out that you are a beautiful and unique snowflake doesn't change that you're doing something strange that people could, and should, investigate.

In post 821, Izariael wrote:You think I'm terrible town for having "faulty logic", while I think you're terrible town for your dogmatic attitude. The vast majority of your posts have this stick-up-your-Smurf tone that is quickly getting old.

I am saying you are terrible town or scum. If you just find my play dogmatic...that doesn't matter. Do you find my play potentially scummy? If no, then there's no point to this conversation. if yes you should be doing something with that thought instead of just pointing out that I am a dick. Because whether or not I am a dick does not affect whether or not I am scum, whereas my note of your strange play *does* have scummy connotations if you're lying about what you believe. I will admit I don't think scum tend to lie to act like a dick, so I'm not really sold on your tell, but if it's there advance it.

In post 821, Izariael wrote:I would love to give you an unbiased read that isn't influenced by my incredible distaste for your attitude, because right now all I'm thinking is "I just want Thor out of the game, regardless of his alignment." For that to happen, I would need you to step back a bit, get off your high horse, and cut this "I art superior to thou" crap that you're doing. Maybe you're right about EVERYTHING in this game, and I am WRONG about everything in this game. Perhaps it's the other way around. It still does not give you the right to be a complete Smurf to myself or other players in the way I see you doing. I'll leave that ball in your court. Do as you please.

Again - I believe I am allowed within the confines of the game to point out play I think is anti-town or pro-scum.
If my play is so terrible and uncouth that it prevents you from scumhunting though then one of us should replace out.
I do not think I have crossed any line and I also think I have been quite specific about what plays I find bad and why - allowing anyone to defend or discuss them if they wish.
I also think too much weight is being placed on my words, as other players have called your (and others) play bad and are not getting this reaction - and if I am getting extra weight to my words due to a join date that is an unfair weight to place on me, as it is not under my control.

If you think I crossed the line somewhere please point it out to me or the mod.
Otherwise - I do not see a valid reason to change my playstyle.

In post 823, TierShift wrote:
In post 799, Thor665 wrote:I would think my other comment of 'I am in a neighborhood and not claiming it yet' would remove all doubt.

Where is this post?

Response to inquiry when I have time.

viewtopic.php?p=6268337#p6268337
First response to a quote.

Speaking of quotes that can be responded to....

In post 799, Thor665 wrote:Back up your gak now please.
1. Explain your specific issue with how I approached him (even working within the misunderstanding you're now admitting to)
2. Then describe your chosen approach and why you thought it was a good approach.

That would be helpful.

You didn't answer this yet.
I don't know why that is hard to do.
I will make a comment about your play now and the idea of answering questions, but to soften it will do this :lol:

In post 825, goodmorning wrote:
In post 801, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 782, goodmorning wrote:Two, actually. Vaguely annoyed.

Why are you annoyed that two hoods got claimed?

Repeat: I've already spoken about this.
Repeat: I don't care to speak any more about it.

So...no, you haven't answered it, but you refuse to.

My Neighborhood is me, Pere, and Egg.
Egg gave me slight town vibes already.
Pere didn't post.

Discuss.

In post 825, goodmorning wrote:Note to self:
It is not polite to ask Thor to Smurf off, even if you say please.

Note to self: it is tough to get Goodmorning to state why she wants things not done because it will aid scum...'somehow'...I think, I'm actually inventing the excuse. It's the only one that makes sense, really.

In post 828, goodmorning wrote:Does anyone know whether Thor whinges as much as Town as he does as Scum?

Are you trying to be passive aggressive? There is a thing known as my player profile - y'know, click on my name, look at all my posted in games, have near infinite meta available.

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Post Post #835  (isolation #95)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:08 am

I think Pere is scum via play in thread, his lack of presence in the neighborhood means nothing really as he was checked out of the game for days after that anyway.

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Post Post #842  (isolation #96)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:48 am

In post 836, Nero Cain wrote:What did egg do that gave you town vibes? Is he scrambled or sunny side up?

Well, basically his play was so terrible I have a hard time believing he was scum. He played the 'what do we do with a neighborhood' card while also admitting to being scum in a neighborhood semi-recently. That is terrible play and quite nonsensical - but I cannot imagine even a half sane scum would do that as scum. Ergo, a town vibe.

In post 837, TierShift wrote:Thor, I find me repeating myself. I also want to say you're a Smurfing snoc for attributing the misunderstanding to me alone.

I have no idea what a snoc is. Snob?
I do think the misunderstanding is on your end alone - as I've noted how my story has been clear and unchanging and that you approached your claimed issue in a weird way.

In post 837, TierShift wrote:I can take issue with someone calling null behaviour scummy (which I thought you were doing) without having a townread on said person. That is not at all a requirement. I have no idea why you feel I should have approached you differently than I have. Quote where I express a townread on iza. I only expressed feelings that him thinking nullreads can be committed to was genuine. That is not equal to a townread.

I will admit, by the time you start calling a player 'genuine' I don't tend to think you lack a town read on him.
Okay, so you were just defending a null read - got it.

In post 837, TierShift wrote:1. You called null behaviour scummy (which is the misunderstanding I was working with). That is my specific issue. Scum do that.
2. I approached you by asking if you seriously found him scummy for that. You didn't try to clear up the misunderstanding, so I kept working on the assumption that you found him scummy for it. I then defended him on that assumption. No regrets.

1. Okay.
2. How did I not try to clear up the misunderstanding? Let's review my immediate reply to your comment;
viewtopic.php?p=6268266#p6268266
Specifically this;
In post 735, Thor665 wrote:Making him either town who is dangerous to have in the game due to inability to read below the surface or scum.
Both making him a viable lynch option to me.

From the first moment I answered I noted awareness of the ability to read it as a null tell.
Which would make the communication issue on your end.

When i clarified again (repeating myself) you complained about my tone. Maybe I should have called you a Smurfing snoc to clear it up :lol:

Would you like to vote Pere now?
Pretty sure he's scum.

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Post Post #843  (isolation #97)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:50 am

In post 840, T S O wrote:Maybe it's just me not really interacting with Thor this game, but I haven't found him particularly abrasive.

After the comments I've gotten today I want to frame this.

Really, I think the primary issue is simply the written word. In person I say the same sort of stuff and people think I'm polite and to some degree funny. Same thing happened when we played audio mafia (except for the scum players). I think my vocal tone is different from what people presume it to be.

I should try doing an alt where I insist on posting readings of every post I make. I wonder what that would do to how I'm reacted to...

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Post Post #844  (isolation #98)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:50 am

Maybe just do it as my main, honestly.
I might not do it in this game but in [ongoing] it would be amusing I think.

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Post Post #846  (isolation #99)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:05 pm

In post 842, Thor665 wrote:Would you like to vote Pere now?
Pretty sure he's scum.

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Post Post #848  (isolation #100)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:13 pm

Have you ever played with Pere prior to this? I feel like you must have.

He is not only doing a slow start (which I might buy as town him) but is pairing it with sloppy reads and not really looking over the thread (note how he agreed that...whoever that was, Muffin?, who had earlier brought up multiball was scum after it was pointed out. But if he had actually read and also actually thought that was an issue (as shown by his reaction to me) he would have mentioned it.

If he had openly stated he was skimming/sipping stuff - no worries.
But he didn't, he chose to present like he read.
He was probably lying about that.
Why do you think town Pere would do that?

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Post Post #849  (isolation #101)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:19 pm

Also, in all seriousness, go back and read the *conversation* wherein I brought up multiball.
Not the post, the conversation, and ask yourself if it seemed scummy in any way particularly that I brought it up.
Then ask yourself why Pere thought it was scummy.
Then go and look at how I asked him to explain and the way (shifty and not answering) he chose to respond.

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Post Post #853  (isolation #102)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:12 pm

Townperegrine is known *not* to do those things.

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Post Post #868  (isolation #103)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:38 pm

In post 859, goodmorning wrote:
In post 858, goodmorning wrote:Am meta-ing Thor RIGHT NOW. Will conclude what I conclude when I conclude it.

O554 - Town Thor, no whinge
NY169 - Scum Thor (Casso), whinge

:lol:
I'm not laughing at the read so much, but because I went to look at the two games to try to understand what you would classify as which (I couldn't figure it out) but I realized one of the games was the birth of one of my favortite snappy comebacks, the ol' 20 questions remark when people are talking in circles.
:neutral: ...okay, so, since I asked for the scm read on her, and the answer is "it was on her predecessor" I guess now I'm obligated, since you chose not to volunteer the info, to ask 'whats the scum case on the predecessor?' Thanks for allowing me to play 20 questions. You can answer this one now.


In post 864, TierShift wrote:This readslist is Smufier than anything pere has presented imo

By that do you mean scummy or do you simply mean 'not helpful play'?
They're two things, I'd like to make sure I understand which you mean.

In post 866, T S O wrote:This wagon is far better than that ...thing that Thor is pushing.
Thor's even said himself he finds Aneninen scummy - this wagon is the greatest thing since flowcharts.

I don't follow the flowchart.
Be specific about what you dislike on the Pere wagon - I actually think it is by a substantial margin the strongest put together case right now.

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Post Post #871  (isolation #104)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:47 pm

I'm indifferent on the claim - I leave it to Boon to make his wn value call.

I like Tier's vote though.
I am dancing like Nero's avatar right now.

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Post Post #873  (isolation #105)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:49 pm

Image

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Post Post #875  (isolation #106)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:52 pm

In post 874, T S O wrote:-I don't feel there's anything even close to a smoking gun/genuine scumtell for PV bar maybe that multiball comment. That's it.

My counter is - what else is needed?

I offer to you the same thought I did to Tier.
Go back. Read the conversation that led up to my multiball comment.
Then ask yourself why someone would take that as a scum comment if they read the conversation.
Then vote Pere.

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Post Post #882  (isolation #107)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:29 pm

In post 878, T S O wrote:Can you then walk me through why being nonsensical merits this large wagon?

That's the bit I haven't got this whole game.

The point is that he is advancing it as a serious and legit tell.
Was asked to explain it and didn't even defend the tell, but instead got mealy mouthed around it.

Now, feel free to go meta Pere and find me a town game with him both advancing a derp tell *and* not backing it up loudly if called on it as being derp.
That's the case.

In post 880, AxleGreaser wrote:I dont expect to get "continuing pattern of behavior" do you expect to get out of an attack on multiball comments?
(and never said i did)
I do however expect that if PereV got a scum Pm he still has one and thus there should be a continuing pattern of behaviour.

Not seeing that, would suggest to me the former was mix up an aberration or something else.

Whoosh! Please let you be town in all scum games I ever have on site.

In post 880, AxleGreaser wrote:I am not familiar with PereV except that he's not a nobody, that unlike other people you referred to earlier mislynching him D1, or vigging him N1, anytime he is town, will IMO hurt town.

:lol:

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Post Post #885  (isolation #108)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:38 pm

You can always wait for Pere to come back, maybe he'll defend it now that I'm selling people on it being scummy that he's not and also that I have multiple people agreeing the initial call of the tell didn't make sense in context - I'll accept a lack of vote as long as you help with addition of pressure via threat of vote.

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Post Post #889  (isolation #109)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:39 pm

Yes, my point was to indicate how bad I thought your concept was.

Basically you're saying 'well, it's scummy...but only if he does it more than once'
A scumtell is either a scumtell or it is not - it doesn't require multiple executions to make it scummy.

And if your statement is, that on Day 1, you need multiple scumtells to make a case - I am fascinated to see what case you manage.

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Post Post #894  (isolation #110)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:33 pm

Or emotional.
Or scum.

Fair odds.

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Post Post #897  (isolation #111)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:36 pm

Wow.

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Post Post #898  (isolation #112)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:37 pm

Wait, so is the case not even connected to my Pere push - like, it's based on non-Pere related stuff?

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Post Post #900  (isolation #113)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:48 pm

Wasn't aware that was an issue, but okay.

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Post Post #914  (isolation #114)  » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:23 am

In post 904, AxleGreaser wrote:Oh yes a scumtell is scumtell, and no he doesn't have to do it (or each one) more than once.

However the conditional probability of PerV being scum based on just that one tell was for me not sufficiently high to just pile on.

:lol:

In post 904, AxleGreaser wrote:@Thor
On that subject, in order to eventually vote PereV, which is what you want, I will have to read some of his previous games.
A game Id particularly like to read is large game, in which you both played, and you were town... don't care what he was.
I want to see how PereV goes about scum hunting Thor, when Thor is town.
Do you recall such game?

No.
There might be an [ongoing] but who can say?

Let's see what ISO brings me.
OZ Mafia was a weird setup.
Walking Dead I was scum.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=28253
Here's one - though there wasn't a lot of time for interaction, and there was no interaction really.
Lord Patator had me as town - but was a feth terrible setup.
Mainstream I was Cult Leader
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=23662
We were both town there - not a lot of interaction.

This bores me and is becoming more difficult at this point. There's some stuff.

In post 911, TierShift wrote:I just don't necessarily townread him and like this sentiment being present in others too. I have a feeling he is willfully clogging up the thread with all his nitpickyness, but that might also be a playstyle thing.

Since people constantly whine about this all he time - it's a playstyle thing.
Also, the only scum strategy I have on the record that remotely resembles it is - getting town to use 'all the time' which I think is brilliant scum play. There is no reference to me anywhere suggesting a scum strategy of 'debate things! Yar har!'
My post average is 3 posts per page, and that's being aware that I sometimes post a few times in a row.
Yeah, I'm more talkative then a semi active player - but I'm not drowning anything and am talking on point.
Stop being a girl-child about it.

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Post Post #915  (isolation #115)  » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:25 am

I should probably link Patator anyway.
But the setup did suck.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28450

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Post Post #918  (isolation #116)  » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:01 pm

In post 917, hephaestus wrote:Whoever asked for my read on PerV, pretty much null.

At least three people who read his situation with me have come back with scummy - and multiple others are at least voting him.
Why is your read null?

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Post Post #928  (isolation #117)  » Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:29 pm

If it's a reaction on me - I was planning to ignore you other than to occasionally point out how your vote is useless and that you don't appear to be scumhunting in any functional way at all.

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Post Post #932  (isolation #118)  » Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:33 pm

I kind of feel I already said Boonskies was a fine lynch.
If I haven't, I'll say it now.
Considering the state of the Pere wagon though I'll simply note a bullet to his face would not leave me sad.

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Post Post #937  (isolation #119)  » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:13 am

In post 933, Boonskiies wrote:Are you suggesting that I'm policy lynch that you think I'm a fine lynch? I wasn't (still not completely) caught up with the thread so my posts couldn't have had actual content. There is absolutely no reason to lynch me other than a policy lynch at this point, so I'd like you to expand on your thought of why you feel I'd be a fine lynch please.

I find people consider policy lynch such a dirty little word...yet many of these same people defend themselves as unlynchable because they're not really providing content.

Hint - that makes it scummy. You're playing in a way to make yourself hard to lynch while also not providing help to town. That is scum play.
If it helps you disprove and dismiss my case you can call it 'policy'.
It is my policy to lynch scum.

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Post Post #946  (isolation #120)  » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:29 am

In post 938, Aneninen wrote:By the way, Thor can remember that game quite well, despite of my annoying "natural" gameplay I managed to drive a wagon against him to achieve a Day1 mislynch. La wow!

I actually don't remember it at all - but if I got lynched Day 1 then I suspect I made many comments about how bad and newb town was and probably wasn't overawed by you spotting scum after such a terrible play which they were probably salivating for.

I agree with Goodmorning about the Muffin read being weak, but find Dave better for it.

She also just finished admitting how bad her plan was because to do it she's checking out for an estimated nine days. So, y'know, lack of scumhunting and useless vote ahoy :lol:

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Post Post #952  (isolation #121)  » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:17 pm

Is anyone planning to start a counter wagon?
Is anyone planning to help push this wagon into claim range?
Or were we going to talk in circles and wait till about 24 hours till deadline to get our act together and do either in a derp rush that allows scum to better hide motivations?

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Post Post #953  (isolation #122)  » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:22 pm

In post 951, Aegor wrote:[3]Aneninen: T S O, Garmr, Cho
[3]Cho: Grayfoxxxx, Goofyd00d, Boonskiies
[3]Scripten: Izariael, PeregrineV, AxleGreaser

Here are three viable counterwagons.
The people voting these wagons that *don't* think Pere is scum should probably be...y'know, campaigning for votes. Maybe by specifically asking for people to vote their wagon or directly questioning a given player's read on their suspect. Y'know, that crazy stuff Thor did that created the Pere wagon - it's just crazy enough to work!

In post 951, Aegor wrote:[2]Nero Cain: TobyLoby, hephaestus
[1]Thor: goodmorning
[1]TobyLoby: Nero Cain

[1] Not Voting: Aeronaut

These people are voting dumb useless or blatant 'not a vote on scum and everyone knows it - hello Aeronaut' wagons.
These people are not helping.

They should either think Pere is scummy or townish, or null.
If Null or Towny - are any of the counter wagons remotely on scummy players? Vote them then.
If Scummy - even if he's like your 5th top scumread...well, y'know, support it anyway lackwit, at least get a claim out of him and give yourself more info to consider.
If all four of those wagons are on null reads for you - then you should probably do something to get a town/scum read on those four wagons or make A CRAZY AMOUNT OF NOISE about your top scumread - because otherwise you are terrible town.
If you are scum and don't care which wagon goes through - keep playing as you are, you're doing beautifully.

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Post Post #959  (isolation #123)  » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:23 pm

In post 954, goodmorning wrote:You're Scum and all the potential wagons are on Town, is that it?
Did I guess right?

I would say this sort of thing even if one of them was my scumbuddy, but, sure, if I was scum and they were all town I'd say the same. I'd also say it if I was town and with slightly more regularity depending on how much I thought I could grind town.

That said - your comment does nothing to address the purpose of my commentary nor does it actually suggest it is bad in any ay.
Good job being bad town or meh scum, I suppose. :lol:

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Post Post #960  (isolation #124)  » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:25 pm

In post 859, goodmorning wrote:
In post 858, goodmorning wrote:Am meta-ing Thor RIGHT NOW. Will conclude what I conclude when I conclude it.

O554 - Town Thor, no whinge
NY169 - Scum Thor (Casso), whinge
^These are the ones I've seen so they're the ones I've started with.

She never linked them, but she did mention them.

@Muffin

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Post Post #976  (isolation #125)  » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:58 am

Do you think he is normally capable of producing rational support for his arguments?

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Post Post #999  (isolation #126)  » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:57 pm

In post 985, PeregrineV wrote:Pretty sure your case is "They said multiball and Pere didn't call them scummy. That makes Pere scummy."

I welcome anyone to point out otherwise.

Well...since I never said that was the case, I would challenge you to point out where I said what you're claiming my case is.

I have pointed out a few things about you, the core of it is that you're not scumhunting and are being fake and lazy. That has actually been my point on you for quite some time.
If you want my issue with the 'multiball' comment then I would note that you can see it here;

In post 583, Thor665 wrote:Also, you called me scum for bringing up multiball...in relation to a discussion where someone brought up multiball...so, yes, I do think that's weird on your part.


My issue is not that others mentioned it (though I do think that is also telling)
My issue is that someone said 'hey, barring multiball this makes sense"
And I said 'there is no reason to rule out multiball, I find it safe to presume it'
And you're like 'dat makes Thor scum!'

Which...no...no it doesn't.
And you have still failed to explain how it does.
It is lazy and not scumhunting.
That was, is, and likely will remain my issue with you.

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Post Post #1004  (isolation #127)  » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:14 pm

In post 1002, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 887, T S O wrote:Right now, my final thoughts are that I support both wagons if and until I get a satisfactory explanation from Pere - that is, an answer which isn't a) silence or b) semantics.


The question being......

You should read less in ISO and more in context.

In post 882, Thor665 wrote:
In post 878, T S O wrote:Can you then walk me through why being nonsensical merits this large wagon?

That's the bit I haven't got this whole game.

The point is that he is advancing it as a serious and legit tell.
Was asked to explain it and didn't even defend the tell, but instead got mealy mouthed around it.


Now, feel free to go meta Pere and find me a town game with him both advancing a derp tell *and* not backing it up loudly if called on it as being derp.
That's the case.

That is the question.

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Post Post #1006  (isolation #128)  » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:17 pm

In post 999, Thor665 wrote:My issue is that someone said 'hey, barring multiball this makes sense"
And I said 'there is no reason to rule out multiball, I find it safe to presume it'
And you're like 'dat makes Thor scum!'


And for the record, the above is what I present as your case, and no one has raised issues with my version yet - so that's what they see when they are ssessing the case.
I suppose to be fair I should add 'makes him scum if this is multiball' as that is what you said - but it still fails to make any sense as something to decide there considering the conversation.
And when asked about it you just repeat your quote and act like there's nothing strange in believing what you claim to believe.
I think there is, and at least a few people think you could explain it better.

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Post Post #1007  (isolation #129)  » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:20 pm

Like, would your case still hold true if this was the conversation;

My issue is that someone said 'hey, barring multiball this makes sense"
And I said 'there is no reason to presume multiball, I find it safe to never presume it'
And you're like 'dat makes Thor scum if this is not multiball!'

Or

My issue is that someone said 'hey, barring SK this makes sense"
And I said 'there is no reason to rule out SKl, I find it safe to never presume it'
And you're like 'dat makes Thor scum if there is an SKl!'

My issue is that someone said 'hey, barring Cop this makes sense"
And I said 'there is no reason to rule out Cop, I find it safe to presume it'
And you're like 'dat makes Thor Cop!'

It's the same logic.

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Post Post #1009  (isolation #130)  » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:22 pm

I find it is safe never to rule out flying ninja Vatican assassin roles.

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Post Post #1022  (isolation #131)  » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:08 pm

In post 1012, PeregrineV wrote:I therefore conclude that part of your case on my is me calling you out for saying multiball is a safe assumption.
Is this conclusion inccorect?

No, I would agree that you calling me out is part of my case on you - I have said so on numerous occasions.

In post 1012, PeregrineV wrote:I think I said, should there be 2 scumteams, I will be pushing strongly for a Thor lynch. Given that 25% of 21-player large games have 2 scumteams, it seems the single-scum reponse would be to ignore or say "good luck with that" and the town response would be to ignore or say "good luck with that."
What I did not expect was "Well they said it it too!" defense.
Axle done detailed it, there is a difference in how it was said in in the context and conviction.
Which takes me back to , "if there are 2 scumteams, I'llbe looking at Thor."

It's actually setting a future condition which may or may not come true, and was but a single read of 20 other players.

This fails, yet again, to actually justify the tell nor to justify how what I did qualifies it as a tell and is not an explanation of the tell.
Though I will admit you did expand somewhat into 'Thor reacting negatively to a unexplained and nonsensical case equates to him being scummier' which *is* something new, but is also nothing about the original tell.

In post 1012, PeregrineV wrote:Considering I have little idea on where you stand on the other 19 players, you could be not-lazy and tell us who is scum with me.


Aeronaut - lurksack
AxleGrease - poor logic, no clear opinion beyond that. Probably scumish.
Aneninen - No idea, would not oppose lynch, would not support lynch.
Boonskiies - lurksack, begrudingly shifting to town due to Dave, but still a useless slot.
Cho - Lurksack.
GrayFoxxxx - Lurksack.
davesaz - Townish
Egg - Townish
Garmr - Townish
goodmorning - terrible...alignment uncertain ;) Meh, I'd help lynch her and consider it worthwhile probably.
Goofyd00d - Lurksack (mild town on prior to derping out and replace)
hephaestus - burning newb - no real vibe yet, still trying to even get him to commit to opinions.
Izariael - Newb, mild scum...very mild.
Muffin - Not fond of hard Thor defense. Call it mildly mild on the scum side.
Nero Cain - Townish
Scripten - I can remember having an opinion on him but can't recall what it is. If I was asked about him I'd ISO myself and repeat whatever I said last (townish?)
T S O - Townish
TierShift - Townish
TobyLoby - Lurksack.



@Hephaestus - why don't you walk me through your thoughts on both Pere and myself, and maybe a top scumread of the moment also? That would be sexy.

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Post Post #1024  (isolation #132)  » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:14 pm

In post 1019, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 1006, Thor665 wrote:
In post 999, Thor665 wrote:My issue is that someone said 'hey, barring multiball this makes sense"
And I said 'there is no reason to rule out multiball, I find it safe to presume it'
And you're like 'dat makes Thor scum if this is multiball!'


I suppose to be fair I should add 'makes him scum if this is multiball' as that is what you said - but it still fails to make any sense as something to decide there considering the conversation.
And when asked about it you just repeat your quote and act like there's nothing strange in believing what you claim to believe.
I think there is, and at least a few people think you could explain it better.


Yes, corrected for you.

And I think I asked the question- Why is it strange to believe what I claimed?

I can barely explain that since I don't even understand why you find it scummy beyond "multiball".

But, in a generic sense, I think when someone is having a conversation about someone and makes a comment about multiball and then the other person responds...well, I don't think either of them are scummy, and in the vague concept of multiball being a tell I would say the first person is usually accredited as the scummier one in the way that tell that is stupid works.

That is like me saying - hey, TSO, do you think there are Cult?
And him going 'yes, no, maybe'
And someone suggesting he is Cult for brining up Cult - it doesn't jive.

Also, as we've now also established that I used multiball to include SK setups and you actually didn't state any adjustment of your read I continue to doubt that there is any actual thought behind the tell and your refusal to explain it is because you were making empty commentary and now are trying to bluster through it so you dont't need to justify the empty commentary.

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Post Post #1026  (isolation #133)  » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:51 pm

In post 1025, PeregrineV wrote:I want to talk about these.

Sure, why not, you don't want to explain your case, maybe you'll distract me.

In post 1025, PeregrineV wrote:1. Aeronaut- Yes. Not sure if alt or hydra or neither, but admittedly higher expectations
2. Boon- How does Dave make Boon more town?
3. Cho- what about early content as opposed to current lurking?
4. Grayfoxx- What did you think about Csar?
5. Egg- Is that more for in-thread play or the neighborhood posting?
6. hephaestus- to my memory he has like 5 posts. Why is he not a lurkersack?
7. Scripten- Yes, my Scripten vote caused the PeregrineV vote. You townread him because:
In post 376, Thor665 wrote:My read on him is more one of gut and 'I agree with that' but I like how he singled out Tier as looking town and didn't mention GM - which is where I'm at and feels a logical town place to be rather than a scum looking to toss out some easy town reads.
Considering the quality and content level of his other 26 posts, it really feels like your reaching to give a townread on him. Because it seems based on , which has not been repeated, reiterated, investigated, etc. since that post.
8. TobyLoby- had some posting before lurk/replace. Thoughts based on those posts?

1. This isn't a conversation or a question.
2. Dave's point about theory scum Boon motivations. I agree with it.
3. If his earlier content was exciting or interesting I would have remembered it - I don't, therefore it wasn't to me.
4. Newb and confusing - If forced to state a read he would have been on the town side. But I wasn't really sold one way or the other.
5. Neighborhood - I explained this read already. In this thread he is a lurksack.
6. Because to my memory he just started posting and his lurking looks strategic more than blocking me from getting a read on him.
7. This is also not a question.
8. None, or I would have remembered something.

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Post Post #1028  (isolation #134)  » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:39 pm

Well.

1. I don't think there has been enough time for anyone to actually particularly react to my list.
2. I only did it because I was asked.
3. Would you like some cheese?

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Post Post #1033  (isolation #135)  » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:10 pm

In post 1029, Muffin wrote:
In post 1022, Thor665 wrote:Muffin - Not fond of hard Thor defense. Call it mildly mild on the scum side.

Don't misconstrue things please.

Attacking a really weak case on someone does not equate to "hard defending" that player.

You can consider yourself an ally of convenience if you like.

Nah. I'll agree Goodmorning's play is weaksauce, but you're attacking her logic here. There is nothing inherently scummy in having gut reads - town do it all the time, and you have not shown that Goodmorning wouldn't or doesn't do that.
You're thumping on her really aggressively for what is play that is easily either suck town or kinda weak scum, and it's your big push.

Now, maybe you're trying to read her, and that's your deal, but it does come off as weirdly defensive towards me, which makes me feel the potential of buddying and I think that leaves you deserving of a call out.
Heck, take me out of the equation and 'oddly aggressive attack on gut read' becomes your play and that's worth a narrowed set of eyes all by itself.
I do not disagree that Goodmorning is being bad - she assuredly is, and she's even playing it up like she has a plan (and well she might, but I bet it's pretty weaksauce once we see it and won't justify the lackluster play). That said - the level of your attack on it is not in proper relation to the level of her crime. So it's weird, and I find you scummy for it.

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Post Post #1052  (isolation #136)  » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:00 am

In post 1043, Aneninen wrote:
In post 1028, Thor665 wrote:Well.
1. I don't think there has been enough time for anyone to actually particularly react to my list.
2. I only did it because I was asked.
3. Would you like some cheese?


1. Maybe. That fact have not give a read on you. Time passes. It is giving a read on certain players.
2. Does that make a difference?
3. Yes, please. I'm going to coock lecho today. Do you want some? (Sausage excluded, sorry. I'm a vegetarian.)

1. Maybe.
2. Very much so - if it's something I didn't intend or wish to do than a read list lacking clear thoughts or statements is...well, not shocking. However, if it is one I do and present - then if the answers are hollow and barely there it begs the question of 'why did he bother posting that?'.

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Post Post #1054  (isolation #137)  » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:42 am

Why? Do I need to convince you you're town?

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Post Post #1060  (isolation #138)  » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:00 am

In post 1056, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1054, Thor665 wrote:Why? Do I need to convince you you're town?

no, I read fine but I want to see if you have a legit town read or if you are just appeasing me, but also didn't you have me as a somewhat scummy read? If so, what did I do to change that?

:neutral:

Well, first off, that scumminess was back in RVS, and second off - since when do I need to buddy you? I mean, seriously, you're not even around much or pushing much - you as an ally at this stage is pretty meaningless on a strategic basis.

So, yes, I'm buddying you - react accordingly.

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Post Post #1064  (isolation #139)  » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:13 am

In post 1063, Nero Cain wrote:I'm asking you a very simple question Thor. I see no reason why you are acting out.

And I told you I was buddying you - so you should react to that or not.

As regards TSO v. Axle - at the moment I'm actually on Axle's side.

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Post Post #1068  (isolation #140)  » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:48 am

^^^
Agreed.

Also the reasoning was about a kitty.
I'm pretty sure he could have done that for whomever he rolled.

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Post Post #1079  (isolation #141)  » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:30 pm

In post 1077, goodmorning wrote:eyyyyyyyyy vanity wagon got legitttt

Yeah, that wagon is super legit now - it just overflows with legitness and the power of scumhunting.

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Post Post #1083  (isolation #142)  » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:16 pm

Cute.

Want to vote Pere now? As a wagon that can happen?

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Post Post #1085  (isolation #143)  » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:43 pm

The issue is - you are right, TSO is talking a bit of gak and not backing it up.
However, I would like to point out that is exactly the case on Pere - exactly. Pere said something was scummy, then had to start talking in circles to back it up.
The only big difference is that TSO's thing...yeah, maybe he did decide to just generically fluff off about Anemian in a generic way.
Do you have an explanation for why Pere would do what he did?

Also, considering they are both the same case, and I agree with both of them - why *don't* you like my Pere case exactly?

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Post Post #1094  (isolation #144)  » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:02 am

In post 1086, AxleGreaser wrote:Well I found mine, and I always like wagons that I find more than ones dished up to me.

If I dig around in mine, it is still possible TSO is town, but it will only happen if I dig.

Neither of these are a good reason to not vote Pere - in fact, one is a good reason to vote Pere.

In post 1086, AxleGreaser wrote:While you state it is exactly the same, it really isn't from my point of view.

Given the knowledge I had, knowledge = (one bit is i have read my role PM, and another bit is I had very little idea that the game might reasonably likely be multiball.)
When he raised the point that perhaps you had TMI, it looked interesting to me, and I AM town. So its certain for me that it could look interesting to a towny.
My best guess was the odds on Thor making TMI slip like that as scum were so low that the towny explanation was bound to exist and Thor would know what it was whether he was town or scum.

Okay - would you have dodged explaining that if you were him?
If no - then how does this matter?

In post 1086, AxleGreaser wrote:Also at one point, you were adding into your case that PereV didn't jump at the other speakers on Multiball. That was BS kinda in that their comments were very different.
They were very different worse in that they made them out of thin air, but yours was different in the level of certainty expressed. How you seemed to overlook those differences is ? to me.
Feels like stitching up, either via you tunnelling or otherwise.

My "certainty"?
Describe my certainty and how it is scummy.
Because what I said is "I find it safe to presume multiball" in answer to someone saying "if it's not multiball this logic makes sense"
We also showed, via research, that over 50% of Larges are multiball.
It also shows that I was using the term multiball to refer to SKs as the point was about scum/scum interaction.
So how is that "certain" in a scummy way?
Because Pere agrees with you - but he can't describe it to anyone.
Maybe you can help him out?

In post 1086, AxleGreaser wrote:Later you asserted a number of things about his play, I don't find them convincing.
I feel confident I would find more towny intention in PereV's than in TSO's respective ISOs

I would love to see this.

In post 1086, AxleGreaser wrote:Finally one good way to eliminate these distraction/excuse wagons, is to dig around in why people are voting them. Even if PereV is scum, perhaps I found his buddy?

Maybe.
You should vote Pere so we can find out.

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Post Post #1096  (isolation #145)  » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:44 am

In post 1095, T S O wrote:I'm not answering your questions until you answer mine. I want your scumread on me explained.

If this is directed at Axle - he has explained his scumread on you.
I'm even debating that his case is equivalent to my case on Pere, except mine is better.

If this is not @Axle, and I know it's not @me - then I don't know who you're talking to.

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Post Post #1098  (isolation #146)  » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:22 am

Kind of odd to say seeing as how I haven't said that.

His case is, basically, that you are making flapping arm motions to make your raised issues seem more important than they are, and when questioned on them you get dodgy and don't give clear answers.
I saw it as quite true in, for example, your raised "issue" with the Anemian opening vote and how you chose to creatively interpret Axle's question to you.

He has been very clear about stating this - why have you failed to even think he has?
Whether or not you agree with his case on you, he has certainly presented it.
Are you reading his posts?

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Post Post #1100  (isolation #147)  » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:36 am

Okay.
Vote Pere?

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Post Post #1107  (isolation #148)  » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:51 pm

In post 1103, PeregrineV wrote:I'll be the first to state I don't really understand your "Pere case".

Which part confuses you? I've explained it to others and had them agree what you did was scummy - so clearly the basic explanation exists and is cohesive. So where does it lose you?

In post 1106, PeregrineV wrote:
Describe my certainty and how it is scummy, again.

Why do you need this explained again? Every explaination has you trying to twist it in some way.
How about you explain why it's not scummy to say "It's a safe assumption it's multiball." given all of the public knowledge.

It is inherently unscummy because there is no suggested inside knowledge in the comment and also the comment flowed naturally from the conversation I was having at the time suggesting no strange focus on multiball either - ergo, it was a natural comment to make and also showed no inside knowledge.

Why is it scummy again?

In post 1106, PeregrineV wrote:As defined by Thor, not by the wiki.

Agreed.
So?

In post 1106, PeregrineV wrote:Actually, I did, even if poorly. Axle did it better and now you still don't understand how your comment can be construed as scummy?

You have failed to explain it.
You have shown that you've claimed to have explained it, and you've shown a superficial "he mentioned multiball - ergo scum" case, but have shirked actually justifying that stance, or showing any particular proof beyond the vague "certainty" comment to suggest it is scummy.

How about this - why don't you explain what my town response should have been to Nero after he commented that his clearing made sense as long as it wasn't multiball (which, incidentally, also shows he was using multiball to reference SKs). What was my town response supposed to be if I thought that it wasn't certain we lacked multiscum or SK? Or, explain why, as town, I should ave been convinced that there was no reason to consider this in scumhunting? Or show why it's scummy if I choose to do so? Or...y'know, anything, besides the empty stuff you have said.

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Post Post #1109  (isolation #149)  » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:00 pm

In post 1108, Egg wrote:Thor, what is so terrible about seeing no real benefit to being a town neighbor? I mean, scum can use a neighborhood to attempt to manipulate their neighbors. I don't really see what town can do with a neighborhood. Why is that so terrible?

I wasn't aware that I was arguing that it was terrible.
As I recall, I flat out told you in the QT that I considered neighbor to be amongst the most useless of town roles in existence.
What are you talking about?

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Post Post #1117  (isolation #150)  » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:02 pm

In post 1111, Egg wrote:Beginning of post 842.

Go re-read it then, you are grossly misunderstanding what I'm saying.

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Post Post #1132  (isolation #151)  » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:00 pm

In post 1118, Egg wrote:You'll have to explain it then because that's how I'm reading it

What I called terrible was you pairing the two thoughts. I clearly never called either individual thought terrible.
Why don't you walk me through how you read it?

In post 1120, AxleGreaser wrote:You claim that because in your mind, SK + scum is part of the games that are multiball group, the odds are really good. PereV was clearly not thinking about SKs when he made his judgement, that you could be scum with TMI. This makes his concern more reasonable than you seem to be willing to consider. I would read you as scum for this kind of stuff, but even Thor has his limitations. Besides I see other stuff in your filter.

I trimmed this down - you are actually failing to show why anyone would actually consider it scummy. Which has been a failing of this wagon for some time.

In post 1120, AxleGreaser wrote:Here, in the following well know quote, you are being more certain than the previous posters that the game was multiball. (did you forget you said that?) (certainty is now described? HUH?)

I am actually not being more certain than the previous poster.
The previous poster, in fact, is *ruling out* multiball with fair certainty to justify why his presented read is okay.
I am saying there is no reason to rule it out and it is safe to presume it - so his stance is strange.

In post 1120, AxleGreaser wrote:
It also shows that I was using the term multiball to refer to SKs as the point was about scum/scum interaction.

No actually, and very precisely, I only saw you indicate we should include SK after you had seen the data. While i believe you very likely actually think of MB as being including SK, I dotn actually know that that was nota convenient thing you added in later once you had seen the data.

No actually - read my words.
Tell me what I meant by multiball when I was questioning Nero.
Explain to me how what I said makes ANY sense if I WASN'T talking about SKs.
I'll wait.
Hint: what I said makes no sense unless you include SKs...which is one of the reasons Pere suspecting it is scummy.
Also - even when Pere was presented with that info he didn't adjust his tune at all - and I also invited him to explain how it wasn't what I meant, and he didn't. (he couldn't)

In post 1120, AxleGreaser wrote:It only has to be true that pereV thought it might be scum tell. Him being wrong about the stats you "showed" blah blah is only him being right or wrong?

The point is whether or not he should have thought it was scummy.
You appear to have a language barrier, so I can accept that you might be reading things wonky.
Pere has no such excuse. So why did he read it as scummy? That's the scumtell on him.

In post 1120, AxleGreaser wrote:Seriously? are you claiming if he was wrong hes scum?

No - in fact I have been very clear about what I'm claiming, and have repeated it many times.

In post 1120, AxleGreaser wrote:Now that is a problem, his limited explaining of his point of view.
and yeah the fact that I can make up a reason a Town PereV might do what he did doesnt mean he did it for that reason.
the fact that i can make one up and i wanted to see if he had one is one very good reason i stayed well out of the argument until you specifically quizzed me here.

He has had many chances - if he was going to do it he would have.
Why do you think he hasn't?
I think it's because he's scum - what's your theory?

In post 1120, AxleGreaser wrote:Even if I can find them, unless I decide to bet the game or at least my life on it i wont be defending PereV like that. Also WTF for, if he cant (given his experience) perhaps he does really want to be in the game.
Its what I perceive a rather large lack of towny intentioned play in TSOs filter that I was referring too. If I understand TSO correctly, Lately he has indicated he is answering questions with reading the posts he is responding too.

Sorry, I thought you were defending Pere.
Okay - what do you think of the quality of his answers given thus far?

In post 1120, AxleGreaser wrote:You could always vote TSO.

I have explained why I will not, and also pointed out the similarities of our cases and why my case is superior. You have offered empty thoughts about Pere that fail to make it clear to me why you see the TSO wagon as so much stronger - especially considering you clearly seem to find dodgy answers scummy in TSO...but Pere has been dodging *longer* and with more people than one asking him...so why is he "seeing legit things maybe" and not TSO?

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Post Post #1158  (isolation #152)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:48 am

@TSO - your current rage posting is not helping me with much.

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Post Post #1161  (isolation #153)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:00 am

In post 1159, T S O wrote:Do I really have to make a wall detailing why he's wrong? Do I? Raging is so much easier than that and it makes me feel better to boot.

Do you have to do either?
A simple answer to him and then nothing more seems to suffice.
He dropped his press on me after I did that (of course his press was kinda silly, and now he's afraid to back up why you should be lynched over Pere for...some reason)
Also, who exactly is sheeping him onto you that you're obligated to defend the case?
The case exits, I actually don't think he's wrong, but a debate of the case at this point is pretty meaningless because he's not functionally pushing it and no one is particularly sheeping it.
Therefore it's just a lot of noise that is annoying and off topic..

In post 1159, T S O wrote:Also, I cannot even read his posts or my eyes burn - making a wallpost about him is like mutilating yourself while learning a language or something.

So?
I don't care, I don't think anyone cares, and I especially don't think we care enough to watch you rage because 'oooooh, he writes awkwardly, rage!'
Frankly I almost want to lynch you just for acting like this is an issue.

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Post Post #1226  (isolation #154)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:42 pm

In post 1164, T S O wrote:I mean, when you asked goodmorning why they were scumreading you and you didn't get a satisfactory reply, you gave them a few jabs - surely you don't think I should just lie down while he so blatantly misreps me?

I also noted it was dumb and walked away - like you are being asked to do.

In post 1165, TierShift wrote:What I did find was Thor being adamant on multiball being a safe assumption by using a faulty argument (SK=multiball). Why wouldn't he just say: "Eh, ok, maybe it's not such a safe assumption". Why did he feel attacked?

Because when someone says it is the 'worst thing' you've done, that is an attack - and when you consider the statement quite reasonable (and, look t how Pere is desperate to stick to that 75% thing when the number is closer to 50% and that's *only* if you use my limiter on size, where if you didn't the odds shift in my favor - and he's acting like that's a thing still and kind of going 'but, aw shucks, people are voting me for it'

All while people are still able to spot that there was no scum slip made by me in any way shape or form.
All while Pere is desperate to keep the conversation on a debate of the percentages, that even if he was proved right on wouldn't make my comment scummy.
All while he cannot explain what actually makes it scummy.

It was an attack, and deserved a response. Also, he was scummy in how he responded and in the decision to make the initial comment.

In post 1166, TierShift wrote:Wait, I'm missing something. Thor, can you quote where Pere was pretending to be caught up but wasn't and what showed that he wasn't?

I described the example in my post.
Here is a link to the post in question from Pere that I was describing.
viewtopic.php?p=6264691#p6264691

In post 1175, TierShift wrote:Explain this. He was pushing gm for a real reason for the scumread on you, remarking he didn't find gut/tone strong enough 35 pages in. That's not discrediting, nor is it buddying you. Explain how it is buddying.

That is discrediting - I know of many examples of town using gut that late into the game. Is Goodmorning known for *not* doing this? If so I will immediately retract the statement.
Otherwise it is simply a matter of opinion on the town tell, and I personally think anyone who plays like Muffin probably shouldn't be dinging gut reads.
It is buddying because I had been aware of the attack and had called it serious and he went whole hog at it. If I flipped scum, I would expect someone to consider him a scumbuddy to me for the defense - hence it is also buddying, because he's 'getting my back'.

In post 1179, Nero Cain wrote:Thor; give me a TL:DR on your PV case.

In post 1180, PeregrineV wrote:Give it to me so that a 6-year old can understand it.


viewtopic.php?p=6270527#p6270527

In post 1181, PeregrineV wrote:It did suggest inside knowledge. You didn't "willing to bet there is an SK" or anything of the sort. You used vocabulary that indicated one thing, and are now arguing that you meant something else. Was there an SK mention in your Nero conversation that I missed?
No?
Then why should I "know" that you meant that and not the mafiascum definition of multiball.

That is why the original statement is scummy, and you trying to act like I'm the idiot is also scummy.

What was Nero's comment and what was I arguing about in a way that ruled out SK and ruled in multiball?

In post 1182, PeregrineV wrote:Nero was using multiball to refernce SKs?

He was using it to reference all alignments he would "know" as scum and those he wouldn't.
Since scum wouldn't know an SKs alignment - yes, he was referencing SKs.

In post 1182, PeregrineV wrote:
()Nero: baring multiball, I'd know his alignment and thus would have no need to be wishy washy.

How would Nero the SK know anyone's alignment?
Sounds like he means multiple scum teams, where scumteam A would have to search for scumteam B.

Scumteam A without a scumteam B would also have to search for SKs.
I never said he was an SK, but I did say his comment included the idea of them.

In post 1182, PeregrineV wrote:The short is, if you suspect Nero, then you suspect him, and say why he is scummy.
If you think he is not scummy, then you accept his premise for now. Say so or not.
If you think he is null, you could say nothing, or explain that should the game be multi-ball, then you will get back to him (kind of like I did).

Saying
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption
gets a "If this game turns out to be multi-ball, Thor should get a closer look." from me.

And earns me 7 or 8 votes. :lol:

Yes...but why was my comment more scummy than Nero bringing up multiball?
And when he brought up multiball why was my "certainty" shown and scummy as opposed to his?

In post 1186, Nero Cain wrote:Thor thinks I'm an sk but calls me townish? the Smurf.

Please quote me calling you an SK.
Until then - you are playing poorly.

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Post Post #1255  (isolation #155)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:47 pm

Oh, look, none of my town reads have a wagon on them, fancy that.

Want to discuss my scum case on Pere that you asked for? I find that conversation potentially interesting.

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Post Post #1256  (isolation #156)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:48 pm

Or you can quote me calling you an SK.

I know Pere decided to act like I had, but I was saddened you decided to repeat him and act like he was remotely a reliable source of info.

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Post Post #1268  (isolation #157)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:27 am

In post 1258, Nero Cain wrote:your case on PV is that:
he has bad reads
you feel he lied to you
and he thought you were scummy for bringing up MB?

My case is more eloquent, but, yes, you have functionally simplified it down - though I think the third and the first point are the same point - as the only read I cited as bad enough to be scummy is the read involving multiball, and I have no other scumtell associated with the multiball point other than inability to defend his belief in it being scummy. I also would note the lie is one I said he directed at town in general, not me in particular, though I will agree I was amongst those he lied to.

In post 1260, goodmorning wrote:Do they not have a wagon because you townread them, or do you townread them because they don't have a wagon, I wonder.

:neutral:

Considering the only major wagon that exists is one that I built...what?
I mean, this doesn't even begin to make sense.
Though apparently you sorta agree it doesn't.

Why are you playing so terribly right now?
Should you be replacing out, or is this intentional?

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Post Post #1279  (isolation #158)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:56 am

In post 1271, goodmorning wrote:I literally cannot even begin to describe how hard this pinged.

I'm sorry that agreeing with you that your post was useless "pings" me.

In post 1271, goodmorning wrote:I have no real idea what you're talking about, but if this is an attempt to discredit me then I just got about 10000% more certain that I'm actually right.

I sort of feel you're discrediting yourself - you just admitted that your last five days have generated nothing.
I'm asking if you're suffering from out of game issues or if this is what we should expect from you.

That said, it is probably a discredit - because it's my stance that you are capable of playing better.

@TSO - just iso him, he only has one wall-ish post and that's the one.

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Post Post #1280  (isolation #159)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:58 am

In post 1278, goodmorning wrote:Toby

I did.
It was...three results, and I don't follow the point.

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Post Post #1281  (isolation #160)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:02 am

This is what I found.
Walk me through what I'm supposed to see?
I'm pretty sure you got the word wrong though or something.

Spoiler: Toby
In post 206, goodmorning wrote:
In post 134, TobyLoby wrote:goodmorning, do you think Csareo is scummy, maybe townie, or null? I'm getting an everything from you.

It's pretty Null. I've seen this particular brand of play before, though I haven't played with this particular player, and it is not indicative imo. At least, not yet. Could be getting there.


In post 365, goodmorning wrote:
In post 359, TierShift wrote:
In post 346, Garmr wrote:I'm going to be honest I'm lost now and don't know what to think.
UNVOTE: toby

I don't like this post and I'll research you now.

Good, maybe you'll figure out what it is then.

Looking forward to Izariael's post.

I seem to have concluded that TSO is Town.


In post 1278, goodmorning wrote:(For anyone else who might be curious, you may want to attempt ISOing me and searching "Toby".)

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Post Post #1285  (isolation #161)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:10 am

In post 1282, T S O wrote:Clearly I'm still missing it - this is all I can see, and I sure as hell don't count that as a read.

You are misunderstanding the question here.

He was not asked to give a rock solid read on you/Anem.
He was challenged because he had not offered "reads".
In that post he did offer many reads and opinions.

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Post Post #1291  (isolation #162)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:46 am

In post 1288, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1279, Thor665 wrote:I sort of feel you're discrediting yourself - you just admitted that your last five days have generated nothing.

Really.


Reeeeeallly.

Yes.

In post 1288, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1281, Thor665 wrote:Walk me through what I'm supposed to see?

You're not supposed to see anything. That's the point.

You wanted us to iso you to show your lack of interaction with Toby, to show how you're on hold in trying to scumhunt him?
When did you decide you wanted to scumhunt him and why?

In post 1288, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1285, Thor665 wrote:In that post he did offer many reads and opinions.

I disagree.

Why?
Because "offering reads" is not really a matter of opinion, it is a factual state.

In post 1227, The Fonz wrote:Muffin's PerV push feels like the best push I've seen in this game. It rubs me up the wrong way that you attack another player's vote on the wagon you're on in a way that explicitly calls the attacking player scum, but then bend over backwards to point out this doesn't weaken your vote on the wagon in any way./quote]

In post 1227, The Fonz wrote:On that note, think PerV is scummy, mostly on the basis of the muffin case, not the Thor case.


In post 1227, The Fonz wrote:It is mildly suspicious that PerV pointed out the potential 'slip' in Thor then admitted he didn't think slipping is something Thor would do as soon as he's challenged on it.


In post 1227, The Fonz wrote:Scripten's gut town. I think Izariael is town who genuinely believes a 'strong null read' is a thing (LOL). Davesaz is really glaringly posting lots of IIoA. Newbie though. Consider this a warning to be more proactive. Nero's playing a very safe game, wouldn't have a problem lynching him, but PerV is better.

Also - I will offer a hearty smirk about he Izariel thing.

In post 1227, The Fonz wrote:On Boon, the point is that if he's town, scum now knows he's not vanilla anyway. But there's the risk that if he's scum, he's sliding by on a non-specific power claim. I'd lean no claim, just because I think he seems like a bad enough player that not knowing whether he has a major or minor PR if he's town is a significant problem for scum. Bullets to the face of people who have hinted power are bad. *Cough*Thor*Cough*


He then goes into a deeper Pere explanation.
However, what I see here is;

Pere = scum (plus multiple reasons)
He does call TSO v. Anemian 'nullish' via inference and openly questions the value of the case whether or not you like inference.
Scripten - town.
Izariel - town.
Dave - newb with potential to be town or scum but is considering him. (a fancy null read, basically)
Nero - scummy for reason stated, but a lesser read than Pere.
Boon - poor play, but don't want to lynch or see dead at this point and concider it worse play for scum (ergo - leaning town to some degree)

That is 5-7 reads depending how you want to qualify reads.
That is a post that contains reads - fact.
I suppose you can debate "many" but you can't really debate 25% of playerlist given reads on.
And at that point, what is your specific issue with him only having provided reads on around 25% of the player list?

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Post Post #1292  (isolation #163)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:46 am

In post 1290, goodmorning wrote:I could go through it and explain why I find it underwhelming but 1. WORDS and 2. Thor would probably butt in afterwards.

I'll butt un beforehand - maybe that will help :lol:

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Post Post #1315  (isolation #164)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:09 pm

In post 1295, Nero Cain wrote:ok well...TBH that case doesn't sway me but ok, lets say that I'm wrong and PV is scum. Who are the non PV scum in this game?

It's Day 1 and my top read is the largest wagon by a vast margin. I currently have no need to entertain compromises or to sideline myself from pointing out how scummy Pere is.

In post 1295, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1291, Thor665 wrote:Nero - scummy for reason stated, but a lesser read than Pere.

What made me go from townish to your second highest scumread?

In post 1297, The Fonz wrote:^ Clear evidence Nero isn't bothering to read the thread


Go back and click that post you're asking me about - it doesn't say what you are asking me to defend it saying.
Holy cats dude, this is annoying and frustrating. You need to pick it up and actually read stuff as opposed to skimming for your name and tossing out one liners - it is NOT helpful.

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Post Post #1320  (isolation #165)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:53 pm

In post 1317, goodmorning wrote:This is better.

This is the *exact* sort of thing I have been saying to you that you were complaining was discrediting you and making me more scummy.
But when I point out that Nero isn't reading gak and playing poorly suddenly it's "better"
:neutral:
I'm good with the idea of lynching Goodmorning now.

In other news, you also didn't address any questions I asked you in my last big post communicating with you. The one I regret not seeing an answer to was a deeper explanation of saying Fonz wasn't offering reads, and also when, specifically, you decided to get a read off Toby by choosing not to interact with him.

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Post Post #1325  (isolation #166)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:15 pm

In post 1323, goodmorning wrote:Nero is not actually reading words.
You also are not actually reading words, but it's harder to catch you at it.
I, on the other hand, am actually reading words. I'm just not writing very many. Subtle difference, I know.

:lol:

I'll accept that you're getting to my one question and will just 2nd Fonz as far as my second question goes. I find the whole concept odd, so I am looking to see it expanded on as an idea.

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Post Post #1342  (isolation #167)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:33 pm

In post 1336, Flubbernugget wrote:That reminds me, how come nobody took issue with Thor's reads list that was all town\lurksack?

Issue with it for what reason? Calling too many people town? Too many lurksacks? Or too many of each?

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Post Post #1346  (isolation #168)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:57 pm

In post 1344, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 1342, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1336, Flubbernugget wrote:That reminds me, how come nobody took issue with Thor's reads list that was all town\lurksack?

Issue with it for what reason? Calling too many people town? Too many lurksacks? Or too many of each?


Are all of your scum reads PoE?

No.

Also, I'm pretty sure that didn't answer my question.

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Post Post #1348  (isolation #169)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:14 pm

Wow.

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Post Post #1350  (isolation #170)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:15 pm

To respond to a demand that I present a reads list.

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Post Post #1352  (isolation #171)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:19 pm

What is strange about that?

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Post Post #1358  (isolation #172)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:14 pm

In post 1353, Flubbernugget wrote:It kinda implies you're not scumhunting. I mean, you have that huge back and forth with PV over a superficial case, and thats the only scum read I can remember you having. If you have better scum reads, why are they less prominent than some scum slip discredit?

Out of 20 possible players I offered reads on 13 of them (14 if you squint, but it's really more of a 13).
And I have no stronger read than Pere - which would be quite clear from even a cursory examination of what I've said about him.
What are anyone's reads on those slots that I lacked a read on? Show me a strong opinion and I will show you a meaningless case.

In post 1356, Flubbernugget wrote:How much influence do you think Thor has had on the PV wagon?

Infinite - there is a reason there is only one actual wagon in this game and it's because I'm the only player who was willing to call someone scummy and also push on that wagon to make it happen.
You, meanwhile, are wondering why people aren't dinging me for not having enough clear reads.
:neutral:
Just work that one over a little bit and see where it gets you.

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Post Post #1359  (isolation #173)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:19 pm

In post 1022, Thor665 wrote:Aeronaut - lurksack
Cho - Lurksack.
GrayFoxxxx - Lurksack.
Goofyd00d - Lurksack (mild town on prior to derping out and replace)
hephaestus - burning newb - no real vibe yet, still trying to even get him to commit to opinions.
TobyLoby - Lurksack.

I mean, there's the list.
Those are the players Thor doesn't have an opinion on.
Most have been replaced and/or haven't posted for multiple days on end (some at about two weeks now).
The biggest post count of any of those players is, functionally GrayFoxxx thanks to Csareo who has 55 posts - two weeks ago.
The next is Toby, at 34 posts and ten days since last post.

You're saying it's wonky that I don't have a read on these players?
I say expecting me to have a read on these players is expecting me to have poor play.

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Post Post #1360  (isolation #174)  » Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:22 pm

The only player slot with 40+ posts that I *don't* have a read on is GrayFoxxx (who has had 4 since replacing in and hasn't posted for two weeks.)

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Post Post #1364  (isolation #175)  » Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:23 am

In post 1361, Flubbernugget wrote:Bro I Smurfing hate your push on PV.

Bro, so what? What does that have to do with anything else you've said thus far?

In post 1361, Flubbernugget wrote:What baffles me is that a wagon on you never gained traction.

Why should it have and who should have started it and didn't?

In post 1361, Flubbernugget wrote:Your push is based off of the same null speculation PV's is on. What's worse is how your argument ends up boiling down to a semantic that can't be proven/disproven (well this is what I really meant by multiball). If that's not scum motivation, it's a Smurf measuring contest. I don't think it's a Smurf measuring contest.

I disagree with your assessment of what my case is.
My case has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with motive.
I have defended his case on me with semantics - the thing is, my semantics are backed up by evidence of what I was saying, wherein what I said only makes sense if I meant what I said I mean.
Pere has been told this and his repsonse has been "that's what you meant!?! Well...that's...that's shocking!!! Are you sure that's what you meant!?!" and basically nothing else.
Pere has still, apparently, been trying to understand my case on him - I have repeated it multiple times.
I have also explained the case to others, and had them understand it using the same words I am using with Pere - that makes me feel his "confusion" is a bit of a sham.

I have no idea what your issue with the case is, but I don't think you understand it because you're claiming it is something it clearly isn't - and the rest of your raised issues on me are, basically, complaining that other players didn't do something nonsensical and that I didn't have bad play.

Here's the case on Pere again.
He saw this conversation;

Nero: My read makes sense presuming it isn't multiball.
Thor: It makes sense to presume multiball and I have other issues with your case.
Pere: The way Thor mentioned multiball has certainty - and if it's multiball he is scummy!
Thor: How does that make sense.
Pere: Because of the way you said it.
Thor: Which is?
Pere: With certainty.
Thor: Like?
Pere: Saying "it makes sense to presume multiball"
Thor: Which shows certainty how?
Pere: I'd like to debate your definition of multiball and ask you about other reads as a smokescreen for a while, while still failing to understand why you find this scummy.

It literally makes no sense, and he can't explain it, and my comment makes absolute sense in context with the conversation I was having.
Now, on a quick skim, taken out of context...yeah, maybe, I could maybe see that looking bad.
But upon any examination? It doesn't. It just flat out makes no sense at all.
And there is no semantics in the case - also at all.
And if you think there is you have read the case poorly and don't understand it.
Also, you have awkwardly dropped your rather terrible 'Thor bad lurksack reads' thing - which was also showing poor understanding of the game and the gamestate, and even why I ever gave those reads.

If this is a reaction test you are doing it poorly.
If this is a serious case - you better start backing up what you think you believe with evidence to show you are right.
There is too much of this game to waste on a newb derfing in here wanting to make a stink and making random conclusions based off non-standard meta.
Read the game, read the cases, start talking sense, stop wasting my time - I have literally said everything here multiple times and in multiple ways - you could have learned it all without doing...whatever the hell it is you think you are doing.

What are you doing?

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Post Post #1380  (isolation #176)  » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:58 am

In post 1366, PeregrineV wrote:I could continue to argue with you, but I've seen this before. Plus, you've managed to evolve your case/vote from 376 to 477 to whatever this is supposed to be. But, like the Scripten vote, overreaction to speculation is just not a town thing.

At least now you understand my case enough to vote me over it, I suppose this is progress.

In post 1367, Boonskiies wrote:I like Thor. I'm gonna trust him.

:neutral:

In post 1373, TierShift wrote:Thor, why do you townread scripten?

It is difficult to put into words, but I liked his aggressiveness paired with being open about the idea he didn't have strong reads.

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Post Post #1382  (isolation #177)  » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:34 am

To be honest, you should probably read the comment from me you quoted with a fair bit of sarcasm to it.

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Post Post #1385  (isolation #178)  » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:55 am

No, I do not mean defensiveness (and I don't particularly find that a scumtell either)

No, I stated my reasons for townreading him already.

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Post Post #1388  (isolation #179)  » Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:02 am

I don't really think it qualifies as OMGUS because he has a stated reason, though I find the stated reason bad.

As I see it the issue is in his last post he was asking me what my case is because he didn't understand it, and I linked it. Now he has no discussion of that, no questions, no followup, but he does quote a post wherein I describe the case (and in no particular way differently from how I have been describing it for days to multiple people) and suddenly it is vote worthy. To my mind that is the awkwardness there.

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Post Post #1390  (isolation #180)  » Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:09 pm

I can agree with that - I do think it's incredibly suspect that he is noting a 'change' of my case by quoting two cases (one of which is a vote with no case presented) and noting how stuff has changed...when both of those posts from me come prior to his multiball tell. It's like, really, no? Thor's reasoning shifted after the mutliball thing? You don't say!

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Post Post #1413  (isolation #181)  » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:04 pm

I find his answer makes absolute and reasonable sense in the context of thinking your reply was directed at the question as opposed to the subject.
I also fail to see why he would fake thinking that as scum.
I also don't think paranoia about his"terrible question" (which was not) would make him freak out - your answer was generically worded enough and grammatically vague that he could easily have taken it the way he claims.

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Post Post #1427  (isolation #182)  » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:17 am

In post 1426, Garmr wrote:I prefer his lynch over a tso/thor lynch which I view as a tvt

There's a TSO v. Thor thing going on?

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Post Post #1428  (isolation #183)  » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:18 am

v/la - Oct 14-19

I will probably be around, I hope. But potentially sporadic, so v/la is being declared.

-Noted
Last edited by Aegor on Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Post #1431  (isolation #184)  » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:22 am

The urge to crack further jokes here is strong.
Because you got the names wrong again.

Whatevs.

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Post Post #1538  (isolation #185)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:29 am

I seem to have missed posts but not a lot of action.
More people need to get their votes in play on meaningful wagons.

Flubber's explanation of posts I should have called out Pere for is a mix of things I don't even find scummy, and things I have never used as scumtells ever. Whoop-dee-doo.
I'm also left with a cold feeling that he talked about my case in a way that showed he didn't understand it, had it explained to him again, and didn't address that - even if just to claim I'm misrepresenting what I'm arguing and his interpretation is correct.

@Flubber - address my clarified case now, pl0x. Especially since you're basing your case off a case I haven't and never did make. That would be sexy. Thanks.

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Post Post #1542  (isolation #186)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:03 am

In post 1541, Flubbernugget wrote:@thor: your case is sound and valid as far as I can tell but it's beating the rotting remains of a dead horse and cousing apathy. If you don't see any other scumtells in him (or opportunities to dig for additional scumtells) what about this particular instance do you think could in be causing something worth going on about for this long?

Ummm;

1. Because it is not causing apathy - there was apathy before I started this case and failure to create any wagons prior to it as well.
2. It cured apathy by giving us an actual wagon.
3. If I catch scum being scummy - I point that out. Whether or not you like the case does nothing to adjust that it is a valid and self-contained case.
4. I have pointed out other issues with Pere, that doesn't change what the biggest issue is.
5. Also, in case you missed it, he is playing super evasive since I started in on this - and I have been after him 100% when he does pop through, so complaining that I'm not digging is not being aware of the gamestate and annoying to me.
6. You have failed to suggest why my case isn't good enough even while now admitting it is sound and valid... :neutral: .
7. I think it's worth going after because it's a very good case and Pere is acting sketchy as regards it.

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Post Post #1543  (isolation #187)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:05 am

Ooooh, and I almost forgot;

8. Your case is based around the idea "we need a counter to Pere wagon, and Thor should have had a wagon put upon him...for reasons!"

Did you fail to note what page my Pere wagon started on?
Did you fail to note that there was literally no other wagon before or since?
Yet you think the Pere wagon caused apathy even though your case could apply to anyone who started a wagon...yet there is no one else it applies to besides me?
Yeah.

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Post Post #1548  (isolation #188)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:00 am

Well, a couple of those are actually quite explicit and not vague at all.
And I don't see the point you're trying to make regardless.

6. If he made a mistake he had plenty of time to at least discuss why he believed in that mistake. Instead he got dodgy - was that also a mistake on his part?

5. Which do you think is the more likely response from a town Pere who thinks he's right? How about from a scum Pere that doesn't?

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Post Post #1558  (isolation #189)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:49 pm

In post 1550, Flubbernugget wrote:If he is more focused on winning the argument what makes you think he would admit a mistake?

He's not particularly trying to win the argument. He's dodging the argument. Frankly, if he would get up in my face and be clear I probably would have town read him more.

In post 1550, Flubbernugget wrote:And either way I see you two arguing about it regardless of alignment, although the argument is more beneficial as scum.

Meh - I don't care because that's an empty comment and should justify you voting Pere as much as voting me, so it is meaningless to this discussion and shows a lack of thought in your actions. Am I wrong?

In post 1555, PeregrineV wrote:1. Your "case" is saying anything I post is scummy. You don't back it up, and apparently don't have to. Go you.
2. And complete lack of counterwagon. This indicates caught scum to you.
3. Not really. Everyone else is town. If you have any scumreads besides me, I've yet to see them. If you've found any associative tells with scum-me, I've yet to see them. You are carefully not calling anyone saying "Pere might not be scum" scummy either.
4. You linked back to your own post, basically convoluted saying that the fact I question you makes me scummy. Go you.
5. I've been pretty frank and forward, all without using Smurf language. You've been tunneling and changing your story and been pretty evasive about pretty much a single sentence I posted.
6. Your "case" is complete and utter garbage, and the fact you voted me for voting Scripten should not be lost after my flip.
7. I had a better case in Ikuraga (viewtopic.php?p=6092463#p6092463) but I recognized it's flaws (viewtopic.php?p=6096029#p6096029) because I was town. Yours has been scummed up and while not direct OMGUS, definitely reeks of it.

1. My case isn't that, and it's funny that you think so because other people seem to understand that and FLubber is calling me scummy for *not* doing that, apparently.
2. Functionally, the only counterwagon that exists is the one trying to be formed on me - yes, that indicates scum to me.
3. I do not use associatives Day 1 prior to a flip. You are correct, I am not calling anyone calling you town scum at this point - how shockingly evil of me. :?:
4. This is a shallow and untrue statement with little relation as a response.
5. I have not changed my story - you have claimed I have and I have repeatedly noted that I have not. Why does no one else believe you if this is happening? This is a lie.
6. I voted you for having an empty vote on Scripten - I am willing to live with whatever consequences that brings upon me.
7. ...what? You're calling my vote an OMGUS of you? While also saying that I voted you for voting Scripten? I honestly do not follow this comment.

In post 1557, PeregrineV wrote:5. If I think I'm right, I say so. If I'm scum and think I'm right, I say so. If I'm wrong, then I probably say so. :wink:

That sounds like lynchable evidence to me ;)

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Post Post #1560  (isolation #190)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:06 pm

In post 1559, Garmr wrote:I think I'm falling asleep with this thor vs Pere thing can't you two resolve this.
You could put up a final case on each other then wait for like 3-6 days while focusing on other things then come back after providing reads and pushing other people. Whats the point of clogging up day 1 with just a case on one person. Your just filling walls upon walls and you stop addressing your views on other people with this tunneling.

:facepalm:

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Post Post #1581  (isolation #191)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:43 pm

In post 1561, Garmr wrote:No face palm on you your just filling this thread with junk and it's not Smurfing productive and It's starting to tick me off.

1. I have actually not discussed the Pere case much with Pere - I *have* discussed it at length with people other than Pere.
2. I have addressed many other things in and amongst doing so.
3. I am keeping it in the conversation because I haven't managed L-1 yet. Oh, wow, look at the days left and the wagon composition - it's almost like we should get an L-1 somewhere.

What do you think I need to comment on that I haven't? Or is this just an empty complaint of "boo-hoo, people are talking and it makes things hard for me!"
Because I have to tell you, I am not particularly sold by that as an issue.
You know what the issue is?
That people aren't pushing a wagon to L-1.
That's why the game is going long and stupid.
Not that two people are talking somewhat whilst one half of the equation you're complaining about is amongst the game's serial lursacks.


In post 1562, PeregrineV wrote:1. Players can "agree" with you without reading or understanding your "case". You know lazy town does it as well as scum. You've not questioned anyone about their understanding of your "case" except me, and I've said I don't see it. Flubber giving it actual attention means he's probably seeing the same issues with it.
2. Get real, it's not a counterwagon and you know it.
3. Your certainty that I'm scum- is it a "safe assumption", stronger than that, or weaker than that? :cool:
4. I asked you to explain it like I was 6 (),
Spoiler: Your answer
In post 1226, Thor665 wrote:viewtopic.php?p=6270527#p6270527

5. Sure you did.
Spoiler: Post 1366
In post 1366, PeregrineV wrote:I could continue to argue with you, but I've seen this before. Plus, you've managed to evolve your case/vote from to to whatever this is supposed to be. But, like the Scripten vote, overreaction to speculation is just not a town thing.

6. And haven't really explained why in the context of
7. Read #5 Evolving Cases. Then,
Spoiler: Read this
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball ( and ) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun. :]

In post 1107, Thor665 wrote:It is inherently unscummy because there is no suggested inside knowledge in the comment and also the comment flowed naturally from the conversation I was having at the time suggesting no strange focus on multiball either - ergo, it was a natural comment to make and also showed no inside knowledge.

1. I have convinced multiple players and discussed the case at length with them. I can think of at least two that I changed their minds about it, insomuch as they opposed it and then supported it.
2. Okay. So, then, with, in yoour opinion, multiple scum teams, how come I haven't even gotten close to L-1 on you yet if there isn't resistance?
3. This is a deflective jab with no purpose to it dodging how you were scum flailing in your last #3.
4. Okay...and that *is* explained like to a 6 year old. It was step by step. If you don't understand it it's up to *you* to explain where it lost you.
5. Quoting my case from before your multiball call out and then after it is hardly proof of me changing my story, and you know it and it is scummy you're trying to sell it like that.
6. There is no context there to explain.
7. Ah, so now we're complaining that, as I saw new information, I updated my reads? That is different than saying my "story changed". Very different. Like, not even in the same galaxy as a tell.


Edited for formatting upon request.

-Aegor
Last edited by Aegor on Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Post #1590  (isolation #192)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:31 pm

In post 1583, Garmr wrote:Ok I acknowledge you have being doing other things with other people but the focus on pere is stifling so more a complaint as your arguments haven't been the strongest.

Strongest compared to what?
I certainly think they're at least as strong as any other case presented in this game. I personally think they are stronger, natch, but I'd be fascinated to see what you would call stronger.

I also do have other people I'd be willing to lynch.
However, as noted, my prime lynch option is the top wagon. I'm not sure why everyone keeps expecting me to compromise at this stage.
That's not how it works.

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Post Post #1592  (isolation #193)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:02 pm

In post 1591, Garmr wrote:Your opening reason to vote him was weak that has probably lessened the impact of your other cases even some are rational.

:neutral:

Oh big whoop - at the stage I voted him my reasoning was fine because he *was* skating through the thread, and it happened to expand into a quite functional case after he decided to whip out the nonsensical surface tell he did and then claim to stand by it as logical. If you can't segment your awareness of the case from the less and more serious aspects (a point, incidentally,t hat Pere is not only incapable of doing - but is trying to sell as skeevy on my part...because...I guess he's literally never seen that happen before?) is pretty 'meh' to me.

In post 1591, Garmr wrote: I would call my point on axles hesitance to say Aneninen alignment,including the passive defense with the meta thing with out explaining what we should be looking at and the (lack of/resilience to express) reads a stronger case than peres.

That literally just happened, and seems sadly in line with Axle's wishy wash talk that he has been doing all day on a wide number of subjects. I'll agree it's bad, I'll agree he looks worse for it, I don't see it as bigger than someone pushing a bad tell, and then dodging explaining it for thirty odd pages even when people other than me have asked him to justify the thought process.

In post 1591, Garmr wrote:Can I ask what you think of the people on the pere wagon other than yourself.

It's literally basically made of people I townread. Regardless of Pere's alignment I suppose I'll agree to the theoretical concept that there is a scum on there, because that does make sense. I'd probably tag Boonskies as the worst supported move, and maybe Scrip and Dave as the ones I personally have the least ability to wish to argue too strong int here defense of. But, no, I am pretty comfortable with the wagon as stands as it does not really contain people I would otherwise wish to lynch today.

What do you think of the wagon, and the reasons people have stated for supporting it?
While we're at it - what do you think of the wagon on me - a wagon I think is the definition of an awkward creation.

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Post Post #1661  (isolation #194)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:40 pm

I'm pulling an SG here;

@Egg - it doesn't matter, and you continue to misunderstand me, and I don't care.

@Axle - my belief in statistical certainty...if you're going to hang that as the hook for Pere's case...then you better qualify why you think town Pere would take that as a valid scumtell. Because that is a commentary on a meta belief, and not something anyone would ever lie about or "slip" about. So...if you think that's what he meant - then what the heck is he smoking exactly?

@Pere - the answer to pretty much all your things is "look at my ISO" but I will address the bolded thing.

You claim I have "changed" my read.

Please describe the issue I have raised about you that I have, at any point, shied away from and no longer claimed it was part of my case?
Because I can think of two things I have mentioned.

1. You being superficial and lazy distanced - i.e. not scumhunting.
2. The multiball tell and the logic behind it.

First off, #2 is part and parcel of #1, it is just a clear way to show it.
Second off, I have never denied having both issues nor have I claimed to drop one. I will agree #1 was not well formed, and could be described as 'gut' to some level - but I never backed off that stance.
You are scum and trying to paint me as wavery in my attack in order to make it look weak.

The attack is not weak, and I haven't dropped or dodged off from anything I have said about you.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Please.

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Post Post #1700  (isolation #195)  » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:48 am

In post 1696, AxleGreaser wrote:and no I want to talk to PereV first, I have a question I want to ask, and rather clearly I want to ask them while he doesn't know the answers to your questions.

You should ask it then - that way next time he shows up he can answer it.

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Post Post #1790  (isolation #196)  » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:20 am

In post 1707, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 1661, Thor665 wrote:The attack is not weak, and I haven't dropped or dodged off from anything I have said about you.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Please.


Ok. Thank you for your service to the town.

Just trimming this down to showcase what I said and what he answered.

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Post Post #1792  (isolation #197)  » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:36 am

In post 1761, AxleGreaser wrote:@Thor
As you'd love to see it, how about you see if you can find TSO doing towny stuff, and I will see if I can find PereV doing towny stuff?
neither of us want to chase/drive a mis-lynch by being tunnelled do we.

Sure.
You go first, since I'm still on v/la anyway.

In post 1788, Aneninen wrote:@Everyone: does the difference I've written above exist between Mini and Large games?

Yes, when there are more players there is usually more posting and more threads of conversation.

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Post Post #1855  (isolation #198)  » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:17 am

In post 1839, davesaz wrote:Likewise I'm not willing to call Thor as definitely not town, because there isn't a lot of directly scummy behavior. I am significantly less confident in his towniness than early in the gamee. Like Axel, he is posting on multiple topics but doesn't seem to be actually pushing anyone but PereV. There is support for the PereV wagon which means it's not as risky for potential scum to maintain.

:facepalm:
Why do people keep forgetting that I *made* that wagon. If I wanted to, I could make another - I am apparently the only player here capable of such because I've been on v/la for a week and *nothing else is happening* during the period I've been quiet and busy.
Starting tomorrow I plan to take this wagon to L-1.
If someone wants a different wagon get your butt in gear and start playing the game.
Meanwhile, stop acting like Thor is playing anything safe by staying on the "big" wagon - because that literally makes no sense considering what has happened this game day.

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Post Post #1863  (isolation #199)  » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:08 am

So are you settling your count at '4'?

Because the discussion was who could find more.
I, personally, just intend to use whatever justification you use to trawl through TSO's ISO, but I bet I can do better than 4 - especially with intense tells like 'remembers stuff posted in the past'.

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