Micro 396: ArcAngel's Twin Trap Mafia Gameover!!!!

[RottenChef]

/confirm

[RottenChef]

What that a serious vote Axle? It sure sounded like it was. Care to explain why?

@Grib - your last post is strange. Why did you say firstly? It sounds like you have more to say.

Oh and hi Finnlaw

[RottenChef]

I see. And will you elaborate after Axle responds? Because I'd be interested to know what you think after he posts.

[RottenChef]

So Grib doesn't answer my question. Answer it

Explain to me the town mindset of putting someone at L-1 on page two.

I don't like this. Pie is right in his next post - you need to show whether it matches the scum mindset if you're scumreading it. It's like "prove you're town, or I'll call you scum." or guilty until proven innocent. It's wrong, it doesn't work. It's scummy.

The reason I voted for bv was to see if someone would vote for him and pass it off as RVS. It happened in two recent games -- scum brought a town wagon to L-1 waaay too early, someone else pointed it out, and scum passed it off as "oh oops, silly me." I was hoping someone would do that here as well. Third time's the charm, and all that.

But the other two were scum so third time the charm would make them town?

I hate troll post 59 by beeboy. It was evidently a fake hammer but it is just detrimental to town for me.

Pie's reaction is bad though too. His vote was cast wrongly anyway (with the 2 votes) and this feels faked.

Honestly why does no-one see that the vote was invalid anyway? It makes no sense.

Fuzzy's nice.

Pie acted shocked when it looked like I had been hammered and even after it was revealed as a farce, he's still leaving his vote parked on me.

I don't like this from Grib though

@Grib Would you have found it scummy without the fake hammer?

for the record, I was cackling when I saw what I thought was a hammer

then fuzzy ruined it

now I'm mad at fuzzy for ruining it

"cackling" would be a scum thing

But it certainly didn't feel like you found the hammer funny. I never though it was a hammer when I read it but it would have been heart-in-mouth stuff.

So far, (in completed games on MS)
Every vote I make is serious, (given the context).

My first RVS 10 (is not random, I did not go to random.org)
it was a reasoned vote. (The context is no one else had posted in the thread yet so my reason was pretty thin.)

Your definition of serious is slightly different from mine but if you say so.

While thats nice and its kindof like a reason, it has a problem.

You claim to believe this
Grib: "Town tends to not keep track of who has how many votes in RVS."
and yet claim to be testing like this.
Grib: "The reason I voted for bv was to see if someone would vote for him and pass it off as RVS."

I cant see how you believe town vote without keeping track in RVS, and yet was testing to see if scum would when you know town does.

Grib: "I was hoping someone would do that here as well."
yet you start by claiming that a town person could easily do that as you claim they don't keep track.

This is a good post by axle and it has solid reasoning that I completely agree with.

@Axle
The difference is that scum know what they're doing. I'm not the best reaction-tester, but I thought I'd give it a go.

I never intended to scumfirm/turbolynch whoever put someone at L-1. It's just a good enough place to start.

Tbh I think scum are just as likely to keep track of votes in RVS as town are, if not less so (because it would be genuine if they accidentally hammered someone)

Also, pop quiz: is everyone on my wagon town? There are no wrong answers!

Yes, there are.

As town one good reason for you to keep your fingers out of that is so you can see how Grib reacts and just how I push it.
You get two reads for the price of nothing.
meanwhile you get to try an make something out of the nothing in the rest of the thread.

I just wanted to know your reasoning as I had no scum read on Grib at the time and it could potentially help solidify my read on you and Grib (you for your answer and Grib for his reasoning) so I still get 2 reads and I contribute and help people get (hopefully) town reads from me.

[RottenChef]

Spoiler: response to Grib

I can't do that without asking him questions. Which. I was doing. I didn't vote him and call it a day.

"Prove you're town or I'll call you scum" isn't wrong? If you don't (pretend to) act town, you will get lynched. Could you rephrase this if I'm misunderstanding?

It's like guilty until proven innocent - it should be innocent until proven guilty. People can't prove that they're town (barring a tracker claim or something) so you should look for scummy things they're saying. Asking why it comes from a town mindset is stupid because if he's town then of course it comes from a town mindset.

Okay. Why?

see below

Maybe a little.

I don't get the logic of putting someone at L-1, being shocked when it looks like someone hammered, and then leaving that person at L-1. There are people on this site who will hammer anyone at L-1, even if they're town. So far I think it's safe to say no one in this game feels that urge, so. Eh.

Because pie still finds you scummy but doesn't want you hammered yet? I find his position perfectly understandable.

During RVS there's less pressure to keep track of votes because everyone assumes everyone else is joking around. Scum are naturally going to be more careful and avoid doing anything that could look like a slip.

I mean, anyone can accidentally hammer. It's just determining whether or not they're faking.

Well, yes. That's basically what I just said.

You must be fun at parties. Laugh at my joke.

It was supposed to be dry humour which was obviously lost on you I can't be funny.

This response from Grib is actually quite good and has softened my scumread on him quite a bit.

[RottenChef]

am I the only one feeling iffy about Axle?

I have felt something odd in his posts, but the way it feels to me is that he just has a completely different posting style.

[RottenChef]

Hey RottenChef, how come you haven't voted anyone yet? You had your chance to be silly in RVS, but we're not in Kanas anymore.

I haven't found anything hugely voteworthy yet. You were my only scumread but your reply was good.

I'm fairly certain Axle is town though. I'm pretty sure the unnatural sound I'm feeling in his posts is just his playstyle and apart from that everything he's doing is good. I don't really get why people are scumreading him.

I'm also pretty sure fuzzy is town.

I've got a strange feeling about Finnlaw though, especially the l-1 thing. But it's just bizzare gut instinct here.

[RottenChef]

You didn't even throw down a meaningless vote in RVS. Why not? It's fun. You could have been like "vote xyz because they eat mud" or something.

RVS was over when I arrived

So go poke FinnLaw.

*poke*

[RottenChef]

This is not what you should say to someone who's suspecting you.

I read the beggining on one of his completed games and he said his RVS was serious and was "dancing." (he was town) I don't particularly get it but from his meta I don't think it's scummy, just as playstyle thing.

I agree, I'm probably fine for now.

@all of you ducklings
Have you ever been in a game with a person who hammered Just Because They Could? How did you resolve the little pest? What kind of consensus did town come to? What was the hammerer's alignment? If you have not had this experience, would you policy lynch them? Even if you thought they were town?

This is only my second game, so no. I think it's just dumb and is actually a scumtell. If I really thought they were town then I might not, but because I think it's a scumtell I probably would.

Some people play on other sites.

VOTE: RottenChef

Poke harder.

*pokes harder*

Go ahead and want to slap me then, but t doesnt make me scum. That approach didn't make me scum in the first game I played either .
Given that in this game, I was asked if my vote was serious, then indicating I was serious, from the get go, is simply part of the reply and being responsive.
You might suggest its a strange definition of 'serious', and no its not. (you just may not appreciate how serious i am/was)

When I voted Grib if the day had been going to end in 10 mins he was the guy I wanted lynched. (thats about as serious as it gets)
My first vote had different objective, BV was the guy I wanted to get read on, (and thought I perhaps might be able to quickly if I voted him (and danced a bit)(but was wrong))

So somehow me doing that ^^^^ which is playing the game to win as town is to you, "the part that gives me bad vibes. I don't know if it's scummy per se,"

@Inflatable Pie
So do you still think, me thinking like that is scummy per se?

If so explain why in more detail now that you have more information.

I don't like this post though. Linking to the game I had read seems like you might just be trying to copy your town meta.

Gonna move to FinnLaw. He's flailing about on the sidelines not really getting in the thick of things.
VOTE: FinnLaw

See, this isn't why I have a slight scum-lean on Finnlaw. But it relates to an on-going game. Ugh.

Well English was my first language, and then I learned programming and found out code was my native language.

[RottenChef]

And it case it wasn't obvious, I believe Pie and I are on the same team. Not a mason!team, of course.

Hmm, you didn't specify. A scum team?

@Axle, how does this

As indicated I knew you guys were joking.

make sense with this?

please explain the joke.

[RottenChef]

Ima just going to

VOTE: Finnlaw

for now.

[RottenChef]

I didn't specify because it's pretty heavily implied I'm not claiming scum. Game throwing is a No No.

I was joking (did you not see the )

RottenChef, why are you so against actually talking to FinnLaw?

I'm not against talking to him, he hasn't been here for me to talk to. When he answers my post on him then we can start to talk.

[RottenChef]

Err it makes sense as, I am a member of the human species? (I presume you are too)

It had been Jokes right up to that point, the next response is?

Ever had the feeling when you walk into a room that people were just talking about you and they were?

Humans are also pretty good at working out whats meant to be joke even if they perhaps dont get it.
besides even if I can project a towny meaning onto the joke, what I am not sure of is what Grib was thinking.
I wanted to understand Gribs thinking to work out his alignment.
(I know there is danger I could confbias/tunnel Grib hard. There is also the danger Grib can try as scum to just bravado this out. or simply claim I am confbias tunneling, especially now I suggested the idea... )

It just sounded like you knew what the joke was, then asked to explain it. T'was probably just me though.

As Grib has not been himself functionally very useful, he has been directing traffic(which is handy place for scum to position themselves.),
but not himself calling people out and putting their noses out of joint. That is also a handy place to be if you make it to end game where the people still alive then often lynch whoever hasn't pissed them off the most. As a scum strategy his play makes sense. Of course he might just be a much worse town player than he appeared to think he was earlier.)

That's good reasoning - could you show where he does that though?

Chef what about the L-1 thing gave you a strange feeling about me?

Well, it's to do with the game we played in (but it's ongoing, obviously, so not sure how much I can say, which is where the issue lies. I don't want to break any rules.)

Axle, I'm not at a computer so it looks like I'll have to wait until tomorrow to tear you a new asshole, but wow. The fact that the majority of your case on me centers around a post that was 110% fluff is getting real old, real fast. Give it up.

In other news, I'm feeling better about Finn.

I don't see how the majority of his case centers around that post. Just because the majority of his post was about that (which I agree is excessive) doesn't means his case is all about that.

And Axle just says what I would say but in more words - I really think this is a playstyle thing though.

I did not specifically want to get a read on BV and not anyone else. (unlike my first newbie here when I particularly wanted a read on Bulbazak, in this game there was no one person I thought oops that ones problem)
(I might be wrong and someone may have a good scum game, If so I didnt do enough checking)

You checked the entire playerlist?

[RottenChef]

I messed up my quotes - that's what I get for doing it manually. Hang on.

[RottenChef]

Err it makes sense as, I am a member of the human species? (I presume you are too)

It had been Jokes right up to that point, the next response is?

Ever had the feeling when you walk into a room that people were just talking about you and they were?

Humans are also pretty good at working out whats meant to be joke even if they perhaps dont get it.
besides even if I can project a towny meaning onto the joke, what I am not sure of is what Grib was thinking.
I wanted to understand Gribs thinking to work out his alignment.
(I know there is danger I could confbias/tunnel Grib hard. There is also the danger Grib can try as scum to just bravado this out. or simply claim I am confbias tunneling, especially now I suggested the idea... )

It just sounded like you knew what the joke was, then asked to explain it. T'was probably just me though.

As Grib has not been himself functionally very useful, he has been directing traffic(which is handy place for scum to position themselves.),
but not himself calling people out and putting their noses out of joint. That is also a handy place to be if you make it to end game where the people still alive then often lynch whoever hasn't pissed them off the most. As a scum strategy his play makes sense. Of course he might just be a much worse town player than he appeared to think he was earlier.)

That's good reasoning - could you show where he does that though?

Finn

Chef what about the L-1 thing gave you a strange feeling about me?

Well, it's to do with the game we played in (but it's ongoing, obviously, so not sure how much I can say, which is where the issue lies. I don't want to break any rules.)

Grib

Axle, I'm not at a computer so it looks like I'll have to wait until tomorrow to tear you a new asshole, but wow. The fact that the majority of your case on me centers around a post that was 110% fluff is getting real old, real fast. Give it up.

In other news, I'm feeling better about Finn.

I don't see how the majority of his case centers around that post. Just because the majority of his post was about that (which I agree is excessive) doesn't means his case is all about that.

And Axle just says what I would say but in more words - I really think this is a playstyle thing though.

Axle

I did not specifically want to get a read on BV and not anyone else. (unlike my first newbie here when I particularly wanted a read on Bulbazak, in this game there was no one person I thought oops that ones problem)
(I might be wrong and someone may have a good scum game, If so I didnt do enough checking)

You checked the entire playerlist?

[RottenChef]

@Grib - where did I do that?

That's good reasoning - could you show where he does that though?

Here I was asking him if he could find things to back up his reasoning as it would be good if he had evidence.

And Axle just says what I would say but in more words - I really think this is a playstyle thing though.

I said what I would say (my words) just before that.

[RottenChef]

@RChef: first off, stop talking about ongoing games or talking about talking about ongoing games. second, did finn's 188 change your read on him at all?

It feels kind of forced to me. In fact, I'll look at the big thing at the end

So I've read up a bit and tried to establish some reads on people. First I would say my biggest town read right now is Fuzzy. His play has just come across as town. He was cautious and warned against the early hammer situation. I feel scum would have just let this played out but Fuzzy spoke out against it. He seems to be trying to keep us on a straight path guiding us away from the early hammer stuff and away from harmful play like the WIFOM from Grib.

At first glance this looks ok - he has an opinion about Fuzzy that I mostly agree with. However, he says he's townreading fuzzy for guiding town. I don't like this - I certainly wouldn't townread someone for guiding town barring conftowness, which fuzzy is not. Yes, people can put their opinions across but that wouldn't be guiding town. I don't think fuzzy is doing this and I don't like this part of Finnlaw's post.

I would say I'm null in regards to BV, Chef & probably null on Pie (as touched upon earlier). Beeboy hasn't contributed too much so far but his joke with the fake hammer was confusing and didnt help town play, but I just need to hear more from him.

How can you be probably null on someone but completely null on the others? Wouldn't not being completely null give you a slight town or scum lean? At a stretch, this could be used as a way to back out of his reads, though as it's null maybe not so.

I do currently find Syne suspicious, I didn't like his second post 'It would take a miracle for me to vote Pie today'. While he did offer an explanation of the post when requested, I just didn't like how concrete the statement was. He seemed closed off to allowing his views to change, and unless you know someone's alignment you should know your views on someone's alignment can change pretty quickly if something comes up.

However, the read isn't strong and I am wary that I may simply be finding him suspicious because he is potentially leading a wagon on me and I know I'm town. So for now I'm holding my vote until I finish reading up on some other people.

Still need to read into Grib & Axle. I've answered some questions If I have forget to answer anything just please bring it to my attention.

Again, there is nothing strong here and he quickly brings up a counterstatement to what he had just said. It seems like he is afraid to deliver his opinion.

Upon looking at that post again, it had probably solidified my scumread on Finnlaw.

Who exactly is you think is scum and what have you been doing about that given there is only 6 days to go?

I want you to go back and look at the last few pages and tell me what you see, because all I see are constant walls of text that mean absolutely nothing. I'm not going to sit here and read through wall after wall to try and figure out who scum is. I pointed out that we have 6 days left. That's not a lot of time.

Fuzzy doesn't seem to be anything proactive here. I don't know why though but I don't see scum in this.

Bah, there is something with Axle's posts that I don't get, but I keep on remembering his game I skimmed and he talked the same way.

[RottenChef]

@Rotten Chef
The above spoiler quotes post from before that I really think you should want to respond to....

But I did respond to that? Unless there's something I'm missing. I'm trying to deduct what your reasoning for thinking Grib is scum is, and seeing if I agree with it (which I don't)

[RottenChef]

You have already claimed you think the reasoning is good, but does it have evidence?
You now claim you dont agree with it.

I worded that wrong - what I meant to say is I don't agree that your evidence makes your reasoning true.

Please show me where he was but not himself(Grib) calling people out and putting their noses out of joint.

What does this mean. "He was but not himself"? I'm probably being stupid but I don't understand it.

@fuzzy: answer 215 or die.

anyone is possible scum at this point. No one reads town to me right now because I can't get reads on people because the great wall of Mafia is taking up too much space in this game.

This reads to me as scum afraid to express an opinion. But you started so well! I'm conflicted.

No that was not what i was interpetting that way.

But you just said that you think he thought it was TvT. How does that mean you're not interpreting that way? Your posts really confused me

[RottenChef]

Thanks Finn, didn't see that

The ongoing game has now finished so I can elaborate.

However, for the above reason I am still going to vote for him as while I would of preferred further discussion before nearing a possibly lynch, so we have more to go off in day 2. Things simply aren't moving so im going to place my vote putting texcat at L-1.

Vote - Texcat

There was more in that post but the point is he put someone at L-1 early on (which I think is perfectly fine - he was town btw) and then in this game (123) he then calls pie slightly scum for the L-1.

I put this in the wrong thread. Should be in this one.

I'm a bit busy at the moment - should be able to post at times this weekend and I'll be in a good position for 2 weeks come monday for post.

[RottenChef]

I'm getting scumvibes. If scum hammers they get policy lynched unless obvious-town. You also know that.