Micro 396: ArcAngel's Twin Trap Mafia Gameover!!!!

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/confirm

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VOTE: bv310

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'sup grib

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being that my role is "Masons with Grib" I hope so

sidenote - that's my actual role name, I will literally flip "Town Masons with Grib".

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sidesidenote - if Grib flips scum mason pls don't lynch me kthnx

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@bv: you keep using that tag, I don't think it does what you think it does

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Grib

L-1

sorry masonbuddy I need to vote you so the scum don't realize we're masons

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Explain to

me

the

scum

mindset of putting someone at L-1 on page two.

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notes for later - RottenChef and bv both posted post-VC and didn't put Grib at L-1, dunno if it's that telling

also I didn't bother clicking the spoiler and assumed bv's vote wasn't counted due to bold over VOTE: tags, ignore the top part of 41

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oh, and fuzzy.

although I suppose

not

putting someone to L1 on p2 isn't too much of a tell because it's kinda stupid

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Town tends to not keep track of who has how many votes in RVS.

- well that's why I bolded the L-1 thingy

If scum put someone at L-1, town could hammer and not even know it. And then they become the center of focus the following Day.

- just like I'm probably becoming the center of focus for knowingly putting someone at L-1 and announcing it?

try again Grib because that still doesn't quite answer why scum would obviously L-1 someone

I'm pseudo-defending myself with WIFOM but I'm very interested in this theory discussion

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holy shit

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dammit fuzzy

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for the record, I was cackling when I saw what I thought was a hammer

then fuzzy ruined it

now I'm mad at fuzzy for ruining it

---

so scum would put someone at L-1 on page 2 because it makes some people think "oh, scum would NEVER be that bold," therefore I am scum

?

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will post at some point tonight

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am I the only one feeling iffy about Axle?

67 reads weird, mostly the bit about his RVS vote. I like his 69 though. Maybe it's his posting style because it did take me a minute to understand what he was saying. But then 96 gives me weird vibes as well.

Probably just posting style bugging me, don't have anything concrete.

@chef (82) - someone else pointed this out I think but it would have probably been counted, had he not been voting Grib already. How is a fake hammer detrimental to town? (re: beeboy 59)

re:cackling (chef in 82, Finn 85) - no, I actually cackled. I laughed maniacally/heartily for a solid 20 seconds. I still would have found it hilarious even if Grib flipped town, just because a p2 lynch REALLY throws the game into overdrive and we could have pressure multiple people on the wagon. Even better if Grib flipped scum.

re: Finn 85-

that being to try to get a quick mislynch with people not keeping track

- But I announced it was L-1. Like...c'mon.

It just generally seems a bad idea from a town mindset to put someone at L-1 that early. As if there's no legitimate reason behind the vote why create the risk of a potential mislynch. The scum mindset is they would potentially get a quick hammer and lynch a town member.

Scum proooobably wouldn't hammer that early. Way too risky. Yeah yeah, WIFOM.

re:grib 90

Also Pie has never said he finds me scummy.

this is true. I actually can't really read you that well, even under this pressure.

UNVOTE:

Gonna mull some stuff over. Proooobably want more pressure on Axle but I need to seriously sit down and read Grib.

I'm liking bee. Just as a note.

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67 and 96 are soooo baaaaad. But 69 and... I think 79? are good/okay.

I'm too worn out mentally from 4 rounds of Magic the Gathering and I'm probably playing more tomorrow night, so I'll be lurking until Saturday-ish.

VOTE: Axle

might as well park this somewhere

also inb4 someone eventually calls me scum for L-1ing Grib and backing off when other people back off. as a note. ~self-awareness~

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off the top of my head - I like him but he hasn't done TOO much yet and I'm aware he's kinda buddying me so I dunno how much of that affects me liking him.

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Why thanks Grib, hey we should be mason - wait a minute

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It just generally seems a bad idea from a town mindset to put someone at L-1 that early. As if there's no legitimate reason behind the vote why create the risk of a potential mislynch. The scum mindset is they would potentially get a quick hammer and lynch a town member.

Scum proooobably wouldn't hammer that early. Way too risky. Yeah yeah, WIFOM.

Its scum creating the potential risk that some else hammers and mislynches. Scum dont have to do the actual hammer they can just create the potential risk of a hammer by putting him at L-1.

Gotcha, must have read that wrong.

I had a pretty good feeling that no one would hammer, especially since I pointed out it was L-1. If anyone hammered, they would have to take responsibility for that action. If Grib and the hammer-er were lynched and flipped town, I would be putting myself in a terrible position D3.

Do you think I'm scum?

67 and 96 are soooo baaaaad. But 69 and... I think 79? are good/okay.

I'm too worn out mentally from 4 rounds of Magic the Gathering and I'm probably playing more tomorrow night, so I'll be lurking until Saturday-ish.

VOTE: Axle

might as well park this somewhere

also inb4 someone eventually calls me scum for L-1ing Grib and backing off when other people back off. as a note. ~self-awareness~

Oh good, would you like to specify why 67 and 96 are Soooooooooooooooo baaaaaaaaaaaaad?

67 - "My RVS vote was not actually random", specifically, is the part that gives me bad vibes. I don't know if it's scummy per se, but... I don't know how to explain it. I've just heard that so many times and it just makes me want to slap the person saying it, at the least.

96 - feels like trying to add to the conversation without really contributing. Felt out-of-place too.

They were in fact for instance made quite differently to my other posts, in that they were trying not to say things too early, before things had time to play out.

I'll bite. What were you waiting on saying? Have things played out enough for you to reveal this information?

Not treading in other peoples puddles (96) (or my own(67)) and muddying the water is bad?

... Yes?

However as you want to dance lets dance.

This is not what you should say to someone who's suspecting you.

@InflatablePie

If I had been in your position,
I know why I would have considered voting Grib and putting him at L-1. Why did you?

I had a feeling no one would hammer. If they did, we'd have instant information. Wanted pressure on Grib. Wanted to end RVS. Wanted reactions. That's probably in order of importance.

-----

haven't looked at Grib yet, being busy and lazy. he's probably fine for now.

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I'll post more tomorrow night or Monday. Sorry to postpone the danicng, Axle.

Also, Axle, is English your first language? I don't mean to potentially offend with this statement, I'm just curious. I've played with someone off-site with a similar posting style.

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super tired but I need to get to this and not be lazy

post coming eventually

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I agree, I'm probably fine for now.

@all of you ducklings
Have you ever been in a game with a person who hammered Just Because They Could? How did you resolve the little pest? What kind of consensus did town come to? What was the hammerer's alignment? If you have not had this experience, would you policy lynch them? Even if you thought they were town?

I feel like I have but I can't remember. I think more often than not it's town lol-hammering.

Policy lynching would depend on the situation. If I had a nullread or worse and we had a ML, maybe. It would just come up repeatedly if they got to lylo anyway, might as well test it sooner rather than later. If I had a townread on them, no.

that comment now pings me as being overly hyper self aware, as naturally comes from being scum and thinking more about your own appearance than anyone elses.

I'm always self-aware regardless of alignment.

My first vote had different objective, BV was the guy I wanted to get read on, (and thought I perhaps might be able to quickly if I voted him (and danced a bit)(but was wrong))

Any reason why specifically you wanted more info on bv?

UNVOTE:

I'm going to ignore some of what you asked me (at least for now) simply because I'm too tired to process. Make of that what you will. But I'm going to follow synechdoche and say you're town now. You're being transparent enough.

If I move Grib/Axle/synech out of my lynch pool, things are getting narrowed down enough.

no reads on bv/beeboy/fuzzy yet, Chef hasn't done anything of importance either, awaiting response from Finn about something.

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My first vote had different objective, BV was the guy I wanted to get read on, (and thought I perhaps

might be able to quickly

if I voted him (and danced a bit)(but was wrong))

Any reason why specifically you wanted more info on bv?

It was guess he might be responsive, or do something early in the game that would let me get some kind of read. I was wrong.

[...]

If I move Grib/Axle/synech out of my lynch pool, things are getting narrowed down enough.

no reads on bv/beeboy/fuzzy yet, Chef hasn't done anything of importance either, awaiting response from Finn about something.

I don't know why you would move Grib out of your lynch pool, but you do appear to know him much better than I do,
however
If I was to move someone out of my lynch pool, Id have to decide it seemed unlikely they could fake what they is doing as scum.
So far I think he can
In some sense I appear to have a higher relative estimation of Gribs scum game than you.

Do you for instance have any idea why he said

If I fall, so do you.

If you fall, well.

I phrased that wrong. You were the first to lay a vote in RVS. Why, specifically, was bv the one you wanted to get a read on and not anyone else?

As far as the joke goes, to explain the joke (which is like dissecting a frog, but I digress): I said if Grib was a scum mason not to lynch me. So his response (jokingly pretending to be scum) is: "If I fall, so do you (mwahaha). If you fall... ...

well

... <_< >_>". Maybe the ellipses and shifty eyes will help.

I get what you're trying to say, but I feel you're looking far too deep into this.

---

VOTE: Finn

Something doesn't feel right here.

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VOTE: Finn

Something doesn't feel right here.

Care to explain?

something about 188 feels... off. a little bit of waffling, and I don't get your reads.

your read on fuzzy feels off. fuzzy hasn't really done much aside from yell at us from the sidelines about WIFOM and whatnot, that doesn't necessarily make him town. your read on Synedoche feels forced, and your read on me is very back-and-forth/waffle-y.

I do get slight townibes from your comment about suspecting someone because they're voting you... hmm.

upon rereading I'm finding the post slightly better, which is odd.

UNVOTE:

processing.

Axle needs to stop tunneling.

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@bv: what information would we get if Axle flipped scum? if he flipped town? 192

@fuzzy: who on Axxle's wagon is possibly scum? 134

@RChef: first off, stop talking about ongoing games or talking about talking about ongoing games. second, did finn's 188 change your read on him at all?

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Well, thanks for giving me options of what I meant by "stop tunneling" (217)

I meant don't focus on Grib so much. Try and acquire reads from other players as well. I happen to have a townread on Grib for the time being, so obviously I also disagree with you thinking he's scum.

Grib why the flying fuck are you voting synechdoche

@fuzzy

: answer 215 or die.
VOTE: FUZZY

@axxle 223: A game I modded recently finished where Grib was town. I also played with scum!Grib in a Newbie game, go look through my topics. it's the most recent newbie and I'm too lazy to fetch it.

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<Axle: Looks expectantly at InflatablePie?>

*blushes*

*giggles*

@fuzzy: answer 215 or die.

anyone is possible scum at this point. No one reads town to me right now because I can't get reads on people because the great wall of Mafia is taking up too much space in this game.

so you said you were analyzing his wagon for possible scum

no ideas? none at all? if you think he's scum, do you think his buddy was bussing?

This latest post seems to have more camaraderie as if you town read us both and this its TvT.

I don't know how me telling you to stop posting walls of text reads as me thinking you're town, but okay.

well, you did say:

Guys, I hate to break up y'all's little Pow-wow here, but we have 6 days to find scum, and this back and forth thing seems to be going nowhere..

this kinda implies "hey, both of you, start scumhunting" which implies a townread on both ends.

you've been doing a lot of attempting-to-guide-town without actually giving your own reads, basically looking busy, and even refusing to give reads when I call you out on not actually doing what you said you were. and you're voting someone for, I'm assuming, posting huge walls of text.

confirm vote: fuzzy

I guess we just disagree over this. I felt that Fuzzy has been the towns voice of reason. He has helped steer us at times away from harmful play and this to me seems a town thing to do.

but has he done anything

this synechdoche wagon seems iffy.

bee can be town for now, Axle and myself are town. RC can also be town, pretty sure Grib is town... leaves fuzzy/bv/Finn/synechdoche, and I don't think syn is scum. I'm leaning slightly town on Finn but he does have a chunk of iffy-ness outweighing the town-ish-tell of "not sure if I think he's scum just because he's voting me".

pretty sure fuzzy or bv are okay choices and I'd rather lynch fuzzy than a lurker.

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I don't see his post (157) as an overreaction. I can see how you can read 151 as 'needing town to validate his opinion' but I also don't see how that's a scumtell? I don't see a problem with asking for opinions on a townread you have.

Why is/was fuzzy town? (I think I know the answer)
How in the seven hells is bv town? I'd say null at best.

@axle: that post is a nulltell - obviously I'm going to follow up with a response eventually. this can come from town seeing if I prompt further discussion, or scum that wants to hold off on explaining as long as possible.

thanks for the support on the fuzzywagon.

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first part of the post is @grib, got ninja'd and didn't bother editing aside from adding the last part there

pedit - ...

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236. Check.

Is your case on Axxle just 'he posts walls of text' and 'he OMGUS'd me' (not the right use of the term btw, I prefer countervote) and 'he didn't think about lynching me and now he does'

because, uh...

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bv needs to post more and answer 215. Grib needs to respond to my response to him. Whole lot of nothing going on.

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Cool, then I don't have to answer.

grib pls

If you honestly can't see why Axle is scum, you should probably reread the game. His walls of text hold no information. They're distracting to town.

a) the burden of proof is on you, don't tell me to go reread the game because you can't explain yourself
b) I don't find his 'walls' distracting (I'd hardly consider them walls even), does that make me scum?

He did not express

any

interest in lynching me until I voted for him, claiming that my actions didn't match up, when I stated suspicion on him previously. It was a BLATANT OMGUS. He only tried to justify it.

OMGUS = 'oh my god, you suck'. he votes you agreeing with reasons I gave (reminder in tldr form - 'six days left to find scum' = imply town v town = scumread on him out of nowhere?). that's not OMGUS. people need to stop mis-using the buzzword.

---

*deep breath*

Does your scumread on Axle mean that you were wrong in your observation in 87, where you essentially give Axle townpoints? What is his probable reason for voting Grib now that you think he is scum?

You said you do and don't see scum on the Axle-wagon in 125. It's only me and syenchdoche('s slot) on the wagon at this time. What's your read on me and syn? You said you'd analyze the wagon in 134. I imagine you won't have a problem answering this because of what you said in 136 - "I always associate people before a flip, so I know where to look after the flip."

Go ahead and give reads on RC and Grib too, since they suspected Axle as pointed out in Axle's 138.

I still really have a problem with your 212 - and this is more for others reading this post than directed at you - because you're not giving a whole lot of reads or info at this point. It's your 25th post and you've basically:

- said you don't like WIFOM
- said Axle's Grib vote early-on was serious probably because Grib may have been opportunistic
- said you'd mull over my reaction to the fake beeboy-Grib hammer
- asked Grib what specifically pinged his scumdar about syn's choice of words
- been curious about why syn has a townread on me
- given your three 'not-def-town' reads as Axle/bv/beeboy (left out me despite the above point?)
- delayed giving reads while you look for scum on the Axle 'wagon'
- said it's not uncommon for scum to bus d1
- said pre-flip associations aren't always bad

How much of this is actually useful? How much of these reads/how much of this info have you actually followed up on?

And you're going to tell two players 'guys pls scumhunt we have 6 days'.

This is in addition to the fact that when you say this, you're sounding like you're talking to two townies, trying to 'calm them down' so to speak.

216 - "I'm not going to sit here and read through wall after wall to try and figure out who scum is." - I feel like this is tantamount to a scumclaim and I don't know how I didn't notice this post earlier

Axle also tries interacting with you in 213, calling you out on your failed follow-up. I ask you who's scum and you reply with 'anyone can be scum' and still refuse to give reads or interact with Axle. Instead, you vote him.

This is after Axle yet again tries to get you to contribute in 236 and combined with 213 from earlier, I can see where Axle would start to develop a scumread, or any read on you, hence why he's trying to interact with you. That's what townies do. That's what I'm doing with you right now. I'm posting a huge wall - with more info than a chunk of Axle's posts, mind - filled with questions that will shape my read on you depending on your answers. So far, things still aren't looking well for you. By the way.

Let's sum up some questions I want answered in your next post:
Why,

specifically

, is Axle scum?
What are your reads aside from scum!Axle?
What is your read on me? Grib? RChef? Syne? If Axle is scum, who's most likely bussing?
If the wagon is all town, who is scum with Axle that is not on the wagon? bv? beeboy? Finn?
Do you have a reason for Axle's Grib-vote early on from a scum!Axle POV?
What do you think of my reaction to beeboy's fake Grib hammer?
Do you have any other reads or thoughts besides what I'm prompting you for?

Failure to answer these questions is essentially a scumclaim.

Check. Your move.

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@mod - request prod on bv310

2 days, 15 hours.

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well, I don't exactly have a scumread on bv after that. not super-town, especially since I don't see how he's not seeing fuzzy as scum yet he thinks Axle is... maybe I'm biased

gonna mirror 310 - Grib, why is fuzzy town?

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seriously, someone show me specifically what gives them a townread on fuzzy

because I like to think I've made a very compelling case regardless of what fuzzy answers, assuming he actually addresses my wall.

Also, to answer your question of what info we'd get from an Axle lynch, we'd get to know his alignment.

insert sarcastic NOOOO here

beeboy
Basically nothing there. I can't fault him for not posting, since I haven't been for similar reasons, but I wish there was more for me to form a read on.

well, he's voting fuzzy and he fakehammered on page 2. there has to be something you can gleam from that.

I really don't like bv's sitting on Axle but I don't necessarily think he's scummier for it... kinda settling on a whole wave of null mixed with weird vibes from his fuzzy read given the circumstances

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why are we still ignoring fuzzy

and this aronis/bv/alien bullshit is too much noise for my tastes

@Pie
The same reason I had bv as town. He didn't attack me for trying to start a bv wagon. Your turn.

You have a lot of good points against fuzzy, like a lot, but for some reason I still feel like he's town? Can you at all see derp!town coming from him, or am I crazy?

you're crazy

if someone actually thinks posting 'walls' of text are scummy or anti-town (and tbh axle's pretty tame; he's no mastin) then they should probably re-evaluate their list of scumtells.

needs more fuzzy pressure (and presence; he disappeared right after I posted my case)

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BAHAHAH... Ahahahaha... Haa...

Anyone want to make the mod's job easier? *wink*

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@bee: There's quite a lot of info we gain from this regardless, but I don't know about 'not same alignment'. I can even see them being scum together (got fooled by early D1 bussing recently) but I don't think Axle is scum so I'm not entertaining it.

I don't see how a townie thinks 'oh hey I just got a huge case posted against me' and rather than post in-thread saying 'sorry yeah I don't have time for this game @mod replace me pls' (or whatever), and instead privately PMs the mod to replace out. I know there's the WIFOM with "why would scum blatantly replace out" but... I still don't see how a townie does that.

If anyone has a townread on fuzzy and would like to defend the slot, please address the above.

pedit - I'll admit it might be really safe to actually wait for a replacement for claim reasons and stuff but that'll stall the game and also I want to just not give a fuck/doubt my read.

[InflatablePie]

1) tracker claims today, ASAP. Last goon is track immune, so tracker is basically a named townie. Scum can't CC, Watcher stays on them because tracker is confirmed town, scum are forced to hunt for the watcher. If we ml and they hit even one vanilla we're in a fine spot.

2) Any smart watcher would have been on Axle or maybe myself, so hopefully we just have a result and win.

3) I'm town, Aronis is also town. Not wanting to lynch bv or bee today either. We're looking off the wagon. Tracker should probably help lead because they can potentially find the watcher so we don't run them to a claim.

More when I'm home

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I think it comes down to Grib, maybe RC, for today.

town - me, Aronis
probtown/on-wagon - bv, bee
off-wagon - RChef, Finn, Grib


fuzzy's not-"def-town" group = bee, bv
Vic nulls = Finn, bv, Chef
Vic town = Pie, Aronis, bee, Grib


bee and bv are bad lynches because
a) they were on the scum wagon D1
b) they

both

voted right next to fuzzy on Axle (see here) making me think it's unlikely either could be scum with fuzzy combined with the above.

Aronis is town because I don't see the hammer there coming from scum.

I'm leaning towards giving Finn a pass for 388 because I don't see how you post that as scum if you know your buddy just got hammered.

I'm wondering why Axle died, because with the WatchImmune Goon dead you have to really hope to hit a PR, and I think Axle would be too much of a risky kill. I'm thinking it may have been because of a "last scum was fucked anyway - might as well take the risk" type of deal?

I'm most willing to lynch Grib today, between PoE and wanting to get the Axle-WIFOM stuff out of the way sooner. Would rather deal with that now than in 5p or 3p-lylo. Also his attitude of "can you think of any way for fuzzy to be town?" and when fuzzy requested replacement "That's disappointing".

RC is a maybe as well; I'll look into him later.

if scum ends up being

on

the wagon, it's slightly more likely to be bv over bee but I don't want to deal with that right now

p.s. - last scum alive, I am sincerely sorry if town wins this game. it must have been incredibly frustrating when fuzzy requested replacement. wanted to say this now before I forgot. and if you're still reading, shame on you fuzzy

[InflatablePie]

no one else visited axle, right?

VOTE: bv310

disclaimer - if for whatever reason bv flips town (doubtful) we lynch Finn immediately on policy

[InflatablePie]

woo.

so we lynch bv, if game doesn't end we lynch Finn, if they're both town (?!) I dunno lynch Grib I guess >_>

[InflatablePie]

I actually had a PR-vibe from bv, hence why I didn't wanna lynch him yesterday. I was sorta close.

[InflatablePie]

[InflatablePie]

good move hopping on the fuzzy wagon the second he replaced out btw

it could have potentially gotten you to 3p lylo off towncred had I been still alive and guiding the town

although with RC as tracker I would have lynched Grib into you or bee so I dunno