NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #550 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:06 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 544, PeregrineV wrote:A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum.
Specious logic again.
Why would I?
Because you're voting him?
At this point I'm arguing I don't have a town read on him, he gave me early scumvibes, and I find the interest in him interesting in and of itself. You tell me why he's town and maybe we'll debate the finer points.
No, that's not how it works. The onus is on you to explain why someone is scum. I myself have him pretty null, but you voted for no reason and then stretched the facts to justify your vote instead of just finding someone scummier to vote. That's not a natural progression that I'd expect from a town player.

If you aren't scumreading him why are you still parking your vote there? Why not vote one of the other players you're attacking?
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Post Post #551 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:12 pm

Post by TobyLoby »

I actually want to see the pretty graph as long as it doesn't significantly delay posting.

Yes @ Anen.

In post 535, PeregrineV wrote:So when others post a lot, expect less from him, or him to not be as good. When others slow down on posting, he gets better, and posts more, but then all that extra posting is increased activity, so he gets bad again....or something. Not down with the pre-excuses for bad play, seems like scum setting up to slough off any scrutiny.


I thought about this. I think I see what you are getting at if you follow it through.

Most of the time when I ask questions I am either looking for a specific response and/or to see they are coming from in their motivation. I am not going to go into more specifics of what my intent is beyond that. Some things get follow-ups and a lot of the time it's followed up by another question depending on how they respond.
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Post Post #552 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:20 pm

Post by TobyLoby »

In post 539, Aeronaut wrote:
In post 490, TobyLoby wrote:
I can safely say that commentary on leaving the game, saying what to a self-vote and probable fake claim, and making to/too corrections is irrelevant.

I can safely say that after reading 10 pages, all five of your fluff posts have been irrelevant as well. Let's see if we can hit ten by the time I'm caught up.


What.... What?
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Post Post #553 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:25 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 550, Muffin wrote:
In post 544, PeregrineV wrote:A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum.
Specious logic again.

Explain how my logic is superficially plausible, but actually wrong.

Why would I?
Because you're voting him?
Yes, but the vote is generating good discussion right now. I'll decide to push it if and when I do.
At this point I'm arguing I don't have a town read on him, he gave me early scumvibes, and I find the interest in him interesting in and of itself. You tell me why he's town and maybe we'll debate the finer points.
No, that's not how it works. The onus is on you to explain why someone is scum. I myself have him pretty null, but you voted for no reason and then stretched the facts to justify your vote instead of just finding someone scummier to vote. That's not a natural progression that I'd expect from a town player.
I've given my reads so far. Any shifts are too minor to bother with just yet. I voted him because Izreail did, and I had a townread on her. That was the reason. The facts stayed the same from my read, and had no effect nor were affected by my vote on him. So "stretched facts" is a stretch. And I will continue to surprise you, I'm sure.

If you aren't scumreading him why are you still parking your vote there? Why not vote one of the other players you're attacking?
Pretty certain I haven't attacked anyone yet. Maybe goodnmoring, but it was more of a sarcastic observation. My vote is staying there because why not?
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Post Post #554 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:42 pm

Post by TobyLoby »

Nero, you're obviously keeping up with the thread. I'd like a response from you and see more of your commentary on what's going on.
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Post Post #555 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:59 pm

Post by goodmorning »

In post 539, Aeronaut wrote:@Goodmorning Of course it hurts to confirm it. A neighborhood is five people who can talk with each other without everyone else knowing about it, even at night. They are a threat to scum in late game, because once the pile of people is narrowed down, then there could still be two or three people in there, some even confirmed. So by outing yourself right away, you're directly hurting the towns chances.

On the contrary. The existence of a Neighbourhood of such size implies that there is probably a Scum in it (though not definitively, as I've said).
Which means there's a block of 5 that we can attempt to ascertain whether Scum at Night, which leaves us more free to analyse others during the day and not get bitched at for it.

In post 541, Muffin wrote:I would like to know, for my own scumhunting purposes, which players are in a neighbourhood with which others.

Because sometimes neighbourhoods result in weird coordination that can look like a scumteam but is not.

So... yeah.

I for one think there's some mileage in keeping some folks secret.

You can just wait and ask your partners tonight ;]

In post 548, Garmr wrote:
In post 538, goodmorning wrote:I was primarily focused on reading Csareo since he was responding to questions and I could play off the TSO thing.
As far as mentioning my uneasiness on people: one irrelevant post or off gut read does not a good vote make.
I've found I can have difficulty in Larges due to sheer scope of the playerlist, so mentioning people I'm uncomfortable with
in the moment
is a new thing I'm trying; I should be able to put my focus where I want it and look back to see where I was uncomfortable with AND NOTICED someone in the past.
It's also a good way to mark things I may want to pursue at a later date.

Ok so you saying it's a playstyle thing your trying. It also crossed my mind earlier you might be using the neighborhood to discuss cases and that's why you weren't pushing as hard in thread.

That's not really something I would say is in the scope of a Neighbourhood for me. In non-Newbie games I like to make my thoughts very clear regardless of alignment. Can't do that if only 4 people can read what you're writing.

It got me thinking what warrants a vote to you? Because I use my vote as a pressure tool and I find threatening to vote someone if they don't answer a question can sometimes apply even more pressure to answer. So not voting till this late in the game baffles me.
Can you tell me in your mind what does a vote mean to you and how do you use them?

To me, a vote is only a tiny fraction of what it takes to lynch somebody (and I don't just mean that it's 1/21 of a lynch today). Much more important than voting is finding Scum, explaining why they're Scum, convincing others they're Scum, convincing others they're MORE scummy than anyone else, THEN the vote becomes important. But it's only the culmination of what can be a vast expenditure of words, and it only has importance when it sparks into a wagon.

The fact that I don't see votes as that important is at no time more obvious than when a wagon on me reaches L-1. I sometimes laugh. A lot.

Now, I will say that I recognise how important other people perceive votes to be, which is why you'll often find me on near-deadline vanity wagons. But that's a story for a different time, I think.

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In post 549, PeregrineV wrote:Yeah, he's trying to convince me of total playstyle change from here. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=25487

Ah, AMURIKA. Gooooodddddd timessssssss.

We've played more recently than that, though.

From least to most recent:
Author Mafia
AMURIKA Mafia
Shadows and Lights Mafia
Graveyard Shift

I'm not sure why you'd think meta from early 2013 would be of concern to me, since we've played twice since then.
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Post Post #556 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:02 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 553, PeregrineV wrote:
Explain how my logic is superficially plausible, but actually wrong.
Because if you actually go into depth, any rational player would realize that your argument falls on its ass if your definition of "town cred" is different from his. I'm done debating semantics with you on this point. Your logic is faulty and you know it.

My vote is staying there because why not?
Yes, you need a safe place to park it so you can pretend to be scumhunting. I understand.
One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.
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Post Post #557 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:37 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 482, T S O wrote:Well, I don't definitively think he's not scum, I guess. I just don't see why you're pushing this wagon so hard, given that, say, Cho has done the above, but her sheep is significantly worse than Pere's. Why aren't you pushing Cho, if those are your reasons?

I was already asked that question and also already answered it.
In post 435, Thor665 wrote:Could you vote Pere instead? You seemed to paint him with the same brush, and at least I know he's better than that. From what some people have said 'useless as Matthew McConaughey's shirts' is somewhat par for the course for Cho.
Request him to a Vig pool and vote Pere?

Want to discuss it any? I can do that.

In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball ( and ) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch.
Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun. :]

:neutral:

Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
I presume it's a majority?

If not - then please explain this tell, I would LOVE to see you do that.

In post 555, goodmorning wrote:On the contrary. The existence of a Neighbourhood of such size implies that there is probably a Scum in it (though not definitively, as I've said).
In post 541, Muffin wrote:I would like to know, for my own scumhunting purposes, which players are in a neighbourhood with which others.

Because sometimes neighbourhoods result in weird coordination that can look like a scumteam but is not.

So... yeah.

I for one think there's some mileage in keeping some folks secret.

I did a bit of snippage here to put the thoughts together.
Yo, Goodmorning, why can you both believe that the neighborhood(s?) are likely to have scum in them but *also* be in support of keeping them secret?
Like, what's the benefit to town exactly?
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Post Post #558 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:39 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 260, Nero Cain wrote:baring multiball, I'd know his alignment and thus would have no need to be wishy washy.

@Pere - also, Nero was actually the first one to say the word.
So...yeah, are you claiming scum?
I feel like you're claiming scum.
I'm going to vote you on the basis you're claiming scum.
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Post Post #559 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:40 pm

Post by Thor665 »

@Everyone - Pere claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now.
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Post Post #560 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:54 pm

Post by goodmorning »

In post 557, Thor665 wrote:
In post 555, goodmorning wrote:On the contrary. The existence of a Neighbourhood of such size implies that there is probably a Scum in it (though not definitively, as I've said).
In post 541, Muffin wrote:I would like to know, for my own scumhunting purposes, which players are in a neighbourhood with which others.

Because sometimes neighbourhoods result in weird coordination that can look like a scumteam but is not.

So... yeah.

I for one think there's some mileage in keeping some folks secret.

I did a bit of snippage here to put the thoughts together.
Yo, Goodmorning, why can you both believe that the neighborhood(s?) are likely to have scum in them but *also* be in support of keeping them secret?
Like, what's the benefit to town exactly?

Outside possibility of slips, even if they do have Scum in them it's not going to be any more significant an incidence than Scum in the playerlist at large, can be incredibly distracting to Town.

I think it's better to wait a few days.
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Post Post #561 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:01 pm

Post by Thor665 »

How can it be incredibly distracting?
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Post Post #562 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:06 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

Don't push me to claim, please.
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Post Post #563 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:10 pm

Post by Aegor »

AxleGreaser replaces Alina, effective immediately.
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Post Post #564 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:12 pm

Post by Aegor »

Votecount 1.3


[1]
Aeronaut:
goodmorning
[1]
Aneninen:
T S O
[1]
Boonskiies:
Garmr
:right: [4]
Cho:
Grayfoxxxx, Scripten, Goofyd00d, Boonskiies
[1]
davesaz:
Cho
[1]
Egg:
davesaz
[2]
Nero Cain:
TobyLoby, hephaestus
:right: [4]
PeregrineV:
Egg, Thor665, Muffin, Aneninen
[2]
Scripten:
Izariael, PeregrineV
[1]
TobyLoby:
Nero Cain
[1]
T S O:
TierShift

[2]
Not Voting:
Aeronaut, AxleGreaser

With 21 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline:
(expired on 2014-10-18 22:12:03)

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Last edited by Aegor on Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #565 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:38 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 559, Thor665 wrote:@Everyone - Pere claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now.


Heh. I like this. Not yet ready to sheep Thor, but this is a good post.

In post 562, Boonskiies wrote:Don't push me to claim, please.


What is this in reference to? I've got to admit that this game moves way too fast for random statements with no direct context to stick in my mind.
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Post Post #566 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:52 pm

Post by Muffin »

In post 558, Thor665 wrote:
I'm going to vote you on the basis you're claiming scum.


Do it, then.
One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.
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Post Post #567 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:15 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 566, Muffin wrote:
In post 558, Thor665 wrote:
I'm going to vote you on the basis you're claiming scum.


Do it, then.

I am voting him.
You should do it too and be more useful.
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Post Post #568 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:33 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

Fluff
: (a benchmark)
Hi, I am your Alina replacement, she didnt make any(zero) posts that I disagree with, so no Amish tell here.
However in the same way that Meta (see post ) you are self aware of, and is modifiable, is thus usually completely null, then no Amish tell is null for me too. (@Muffin: have two cookies, @Iza: also I am also disappoint)

Spoiler: More fluff
I have a wiki page and One completed game and although its newbie ought give you peek under the hood.


RBS over (random bullshit phase)


In post 392, Scripten wrote:
In post 368, Izariael wrote:
Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten


This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.

It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?

Also, Cho was tied with TSO at
three
votes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.


@Scripten

Please explain how you think that would get "town cred" and is not actual scum hunting.
(I fail to see your point of view) (I fail to see how you can hold your point of view.) (It feels made up.) Show me your perspective.



Also while I usually try not to tread in other peoples puddles, I am not fully up to speed, so pardon any size 12's.
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Post Post #569 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:39 pm

Post by Thor665 »

Don't worry, you haven't even made that many footsteps.
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Post Post #570 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:40 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 557, Thor665 wrote:Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
I presume it's a majority?


Let's find out together. Me being in them doesn't seem to have much bearing, so let's just look.

NY169 : 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY173: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY172: 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY171: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY170: 19 players, 3 mafia
NY167: 17 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY166: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK (in this)
NY165: 24 players, 5 mafia + SK (ran this)
NY164: 24 players, 3 mafia + 4 mafia (in this)
NY161: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY143: 21 players, 3 mafia + 3 mafia (in this) (2011)

NY137: 21 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY134: 22 players, 5 mafia

It seems 3 years and 35 Large Normal games ago, there was a 21 player game with 2 scumteams.
So, yes, a large majority were not.
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Post Post #571 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:43 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 558, Thor665 wrote:
In post 260, Nero Cain wrote:baring multiball, I'd know his alignment and thus would have no need to be wishy washy.

@Pere - also, Nero was actually the first one to say the word.
So...yeah, are you claiming scum?
I feel like you're claiming scum.
I'm going to vote you on the basis you're claiming scum.

Nero used it as a logic example. You said ""
There is a difference.
Your already voting me, so changing the "reason" of your vote is very :neutral:
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Post Post #572 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:45 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

I'm almost positive it's multiball. My role basically implies it.
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Post Post #573 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:45 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 565, Scripten wrote:
In post 559, Thor665 wrote:@Everyone - Pere claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now.


Heh. I like this. Not yet ready to sheep Thor, but this is a good post.


Can you believe people can't figure out why I might have you as a scumread?
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Post Post #574 (ISO) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:49 pm

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 572, Boonskiies wrote:I'm almost positive it's multiball. My role basically implies it.


If your scumrole implies it,
Blue Mafia Goon
, then that's fine.If your townrole implies it, then saying so right away makes a difference in how we scumhunt.

Perhaps Thor has a similar role to you....
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