NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

Nero Cain
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Post Post #850  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:26 pm

So, I haven't really commented on the Thor/PV situation yet. TBH I skimmed over most of it. Ummmm...I got kind of a NY164 vibe. In that game I had argued that the size of the game/current site meta made it unlikely to be singleball. One of Nacho or CTD (both scum btw) had asked me to show them "proof". So yeah, Thor asking for proof from PV made me a lil' weary. I DO agree a lil' bit with Thor that multikill is highly probable but a multiball game seems unlikely. Teams would have to be extremely small.

So we have a 5 man hood, 4 man and 3 man. I think scum being in the hoods is highly likely and with three dwindling hoods (anymore) maybe we have dwindling scum in each. Like 5/2, 4/1, 3/0.
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Post Post #851  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:32 pm

In post 848, Thor665 wrote:If he had openly stated he was skimming/sipping stuff - no worries.
But he didn't, he chose to present like he read.
He was probably lying about that.
Why do you think town Pere would do that?

Is scumperegrine known to do these things?
I'll reread when completing catchups.

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Post Post #852  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:07 pm

I don't think that not posting in the neighborhood pregame can be used for alignment. People could have misinterpreted the thread being open as a mod mistake and just not gotten around to posting there.

Thor is posting longer analysis than he did in a newbie game we both replaced into and were town. But I don't find that aspect of his posting to be alignment indicative since there are so many more players here. The style is similar to that game. Yes, this is me using meta, about the first time I've been able to apply it on this site. On top of that, I see town motivation behind the things that Thor is doing. Thor goes in my town pile, but I also think he's skilled enough to do this as scum so it's not a permanent thing.

The reason I voted PeregrineV is that his post of reads was very comprehensive but mostly really thin. I believe I commented that I didn't see how there could be so many reads with so little information. When I combined that with the aspect that Thor pointed out (Pere seems to be fishing for a 2nd scum team) it pushed Pere firmly into scum territory for me.

I have that same game quoted above in common with Scripten. He was scum in that game. The dry sense of humor seems very similar. One of the things on my todo list is to look at his non humor posting and see if it is also similar to the sample game. Null pending going back through the sections of thread where he appears.

I really hesitate to post on this, because setup discussions bother me. But there is some evidence that misinformation about the setup could be used as a tool and I dislike that even more than the mere discussion. I'm going to take that bull by the horns and give an example. I also noticed the different size neighborhoods. I think it would be a huge mistake to assume that existence of a smaller neighborhood (3) means that none of those people could be (or are likely to be) scum. In fact a Pere scum read pretty much demands the logic that hood size is not alignment indicative, since he's one of the members of the 3. I will note that if Thor were scum, then an assumption that a 3-hood is 2 scum from different factions and a townie would result in the Thor v. Pere situation. Not that it changes my read right now, but another reason to not consider my Thor read as permanent. And to reiterate, making that assumption, or any other assumption about neighborhood makeup, is inherently dangerous. Like WIFOM with both glasses poisoned dangerous. We should try to ignore the hoods and just hunt scum as though we don't know about them.

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Post Post #853  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:12 pm

Townperegrine is known *not* to do those things.

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Post Post #854  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:38 pm

In post 852, davesaz wrote:In fact a Pere scum read pretty much demands the logic that hood size is not alignment indicative

PV being scum read=//=PV being scum.
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Post Post #855  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:42 pm

follow up: If PV gets lynched and flips town are you going to want to lynch Thor/Egg?
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Post Post #856  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:46 pm

I'd think it scummy even without the meta. Verifiable evidence that it's a pattern is helpful to an extent.

Have you settled on a 2nd scum read yet? Anyone stand out? In addition to Scripten I was thinking about looking into someone not getting noticed, provided they have enough content to analyze. I'm explicitly not looking for advice on who to investigate. The brighter a high visibility discussion is, the bigger shadows it casts, which makes the shadows a good place to look for scum.

pedit @Nero: PV = point of view? Further explanation: "Thor scum reading Pere" implies "Thor does not believe the canonical percentages for scum in a hood". Which is consistent with his posting on the matter. Agreed it does not nail down either Thor's or Pere's actual alignment.

pedit2: Oh, you mean PV=PeregrineV. Not necessarily. I don't hold with the notion that the hood leads us that direction. I'm willing to keep the Thor read fluid for different reasons, and haven't even developed a read on Egg yet.

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Post Post #857  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:06 pm

Hey guys, still really sick. Going to have to go V/LA until I guess Thursday, because I'm supposed to be sort of recovered by then. I'll keep trying to post more than I have been though
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Post Post #858  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:18 pm

In post 850, Nero Cain wrote: I DO agree a lil' bit with Thor that multikill is highly probable but a multiball game seems unlikely. Teams would have to be extremely small.

3v3v15 would be pretty balanced just at base, and 3 isn't such a small team.

In post 853, Thor665 wrote:Townperegrine is known *not* to do those things.

Piffle.

He played exactly like that in Shadows and Lights iirc.

Am meta-ing Thor RIGHT NOW. Will conclude what I conclude when I conclude it.
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Post Post #859  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:33 pm

In post 858, goodmorning wrote:Am meta-ing Thor RIGHT NOW. Will conclude what I conclude when I conclude it.

O554 - Town Thor, no whinge
NY169 - Scum Thor (Casso), whinge
^These are the ones I've seen so they're the ones I've started with.

Moving on, but posting this before I forget.

At any rate, it's not like I haven't had arguments with Thor before. He's a better arguer than I am, probably because he cares more about winning than I do.
I look forward to continuing my trend of being on vanity wagons.
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Post Post #860  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:34 pm

Some reads.
Because of the number of players I used 7 cathegories (I usually use 5). "Null" and "Unsorted" show the same scumminess, but "Null" is not enough informatin, "Unsorted" = I don't know.

Aeronaut – very little content and even in his contentful posts he hasn't pointed out anything interesting. Null/lean scum; might be a lurker.

Davesaz – quite a careful gameplay. Not too many reads on others. He's flying under the radar and if he's scum, he's been doing it well so far. Though my intuition says he is not. Lean town/Unsorted. (?)

Nero – apart from scumreading Toby there hasn't been too much for a long time. Reads were given with no arguments. Eg. . He posts and asks a lot about the Neighbourhoods. (Why?) Then he tries to figure out the amount of scums in each Neighbourhoods. A diversion? / are... defending PeregrineV? Lean scum.

Thor – Thor is just being Thor. Is it easy to get annoyed by his style? Yes. Does that mean that he's scum? No. What I see is a town-Thor (though I've played with him only twice). But, there is something else. Somehow I can feel that he's nervous. But since there's no wagon against him this must be a town-frustration, in my opinion. Probably town.

Goodmorning – Town vibes. Though, it seems that she's skimming over things and players. (Eg she mentiones Egg in and his presence surprises her in ; still no answer for my question about PeregrineV, nothing about Scripten...) On the other hand, she seems to be overly focused on certain players, eg. Thor. Might be merely statistics, though. (I mean, 38 posts so far and there are quite a few players whom I've never interacted with yet.) Lean town.

TierShift – He keeps asking, examining things and willing to change his reads if something new shows up and he even admits if he's misread something. Probably town.

T S O – I've already posted my case against him. (In short: he knew Csareo's bullshyt pretty well and he still started an unnecessary "fight" with him. He needn't have done that if he were town.) Also, his case against me is very weak, at least 2 players posted more things about me. Still, I'd really like to see more posts from him doing different things than tunnelling me. Probably scum.

Egg – Not too many posts. Nothing really scummy though, assuming that there is a scum in their Neighbourhood () is just as WTF as Nero's amount-guessing. Unsorted (?)

Izariael – Having ISO-ed him I noticed that there was... no well-based case from him against Scripten. He was playing with words and talking about the Neighbourhoods... Lean scum (! if someone proves I'm wrong, depends on the case. If someone confirms my read here, he's the most probable scum.)

Scripten – What's the story here? All I can see is a moderately-active townie who (maybe?) waits for more content and reads. Have I missed something? Also, I find it strange that Scripten is mentioned many more times than according to the amount of his content should have been. Lean town.


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Post Post #861  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:36 pm

that readslist is realllly surface deep, goes through just about every cliche there is and fencesits on some people

in other words, Aneninen is still scum.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #862  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:53 pm

Quick-reply: there will be another part today, or at least I hope so.
I'm trying to produce a readable amount of content so as to get rid of annoying wall-posts (which I've been producing 987254 more times than I should have). After that you can ask questions (you too, TSO) and I'll answer them as soon as I have time for that.
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Post Post #863  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:32 pm

More reads.

AxleGrease – I don't understand why he focuses on certain things (mostly Scripten and Thor) but his posting style gives me town wibes. I hope he'll "widen his sight" later. Lean town.

Hephaestus – Almost null content but that technically naked vote in is a thing I don't like. Null/Lean scum.

Boonskiies – I can see the same Boonskiies I saw in another game and he was town there, but with much fewer posts and less content. Though, he's not too active elsewhere either. Lean town.

PeregrineV – I've already talked about this. No matter if you're calling my case weak. By the way, it "merely" consists of the following facts: (1) his intro with that sheeping vote (2) his overly-detailed null-telling catchup (3) ...which has never been finished (4) his early reactions to other players (5) his catchup list (6) his compromising reactions after I questioned his reads (with no real signs of being convinced) (7) that whole "is it a multiball or not" bullshyt (how many percents, is it 21 or 21+ etc.) Probably scum.

Garmr – Hard question. He's been after the wrong players all the time (not only because of his vote for me, I mean Toby and Boonskiies too) and I don't know whether it comes from a town or a scum mindset. Unsorted.

Muffin – Not too much content but it seems that he's doing real scumhunting. Lean town.

GoofyDood – I've almost forgotten that he's here too. Too little content and I know it's only me who dislikes lurkers and keeps calling them scummy. Null/Lean scum.

Cho – Have you all ISO-ed her? She looks as she had been doing something but most of her posts are basicly nothing. Her naked vote on me is a WTF ( and there have been no posts from her since that one) but, her previous vote for Davesaz () was not better either. Lean scum. (Or probably scum?)

TobyLoby – I townread her early-game but she's been not too active nowadays. Not active elsewhere as well; unless her forthcoming posts are scummy my read stays the same. Probably town.

GrayFox – I liked his replace-in post but apart from another post there's nothing else. We need more content. Lean town/Null.
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Post Post #864  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:02 pm

This readslist is shittier than anything pere has presented imo

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Post Post #865  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:03 pm

Damn fucking straight, TierShift.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #866  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:04 pm

This wagon is far better than that ...thing that Thor is pushing.
Thor's even said himself he finds Aneninen scummy - this wagon is the greatest thing since flowcharts.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #867  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:28 pm

In post 588, Cho wrote:I'm fairly sure this game is multiball, considering the moderator's own posts in Mafia Discussion that were highly enthusiastic toward multiball.

In post 592, Cho wrote:
In post 588, Cho wrote:I'm fairly sure this game is multiball, considering the moderator's own posts in Mafia Discussion that were highly enthusiastic toward multiball.


Disregard this post. Wrong moderator.

This is town thought process.
In post 591, Cho wrote:Sure.

Whenever someone is called scummy for bringing up multiball, I generally disagree. The main exception is in situations further on or late-game where a "what if it's multiball" comment can throw town's plans for a loop, or when it seems to be designed to instill (usually role-related) paranoia.

I disagree with PeregrineV, or anyone really, saying that multiball discussion is scummy at this point in time. I used to think those who called bringing up multiball scummy were scum themselves, but lately it seems that there's a large portion of the userbase that whether town or scum seems intent on continuing to push "scumtells" that are either outdated or never existed globally in the first place.

In this case, while I have a slight bias against PeregrineV since I felt we were receiving different treatments while we both weren't caught up, I don't think it has much bearing on PeregrineV's alignment. (I do see him as one of the players who sticks to using certain scumtell-catches that I disagree with.) I would feel validated if he were scum. But I don't feel ready to make any sort of judgment on him yet, and part of the reason why is because I'm still in a state of perpetual catch-up. So many pages yet to read, and every single time I log on, I just want to "restart" from the latest page I see.

Do you understand this, or rather, follow my train of thought?

And I like this post.
In post 605, Thor665 wrote:I will agree the wiki defines multiball as notincluding SKs.
I will also say I have been in a game witha 2-player SK.

That said - if you look at my comment to Nero it clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'

Also, if I had clarified SK - I understand that 'SK hunting' is also considered a scumtell (or SK tell) so I don't actually see the point of even trying to draw the difference here.

Do you disagree that my comment means what I said it means here? And if you do, please explain why.

Jesus do you ever admit it you're wrong when you are?

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Post Post #868  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:38 pm

In post 859, goodmorning wrote:
In post 858, goodmorning wrote:Am meta-ing Thor RIGHT NOW. Will conclude what I conclude when I conclude it.

O554 - Town Thor, no whinge
NY169 - Scum Thor (Casso), whinge

:lol:
I'm not laughing at the read so much, but because I went to look at the two games to try to understand what you would classify as which (I couldn't figure it out) but I realized one of the games was the birth of one of my favortite snappy comebacks, the ol' 20 questions remark when people are talking in circles.
:neutral: ...okay, so, since I asked for the scm read on her, and the answer is "it was on her predecessor" I guess now I'm obligated, since you chose not to volunteer the info, to ask 'whats the scum case on the predecessor?' Thanks for allowing me to play 20 questions. You can answer this one now.


In post 864, TierShift wrote:This readslist is Smufier than anything pere has presented imo

By that do you mean scummy or do you simply mean 'not helpful play'?
They're two things, I'd like to make sure I understand which you mean.

In post 866, T S O wrote:This wagon is far better than that ...thing that Thor is pushing.
Thor's even said himself he finds Aneninen scummy - this wagon is the greatest thing since flowcharts.

I don't follow the flowchart.
Be specific about what you dislike on the Pere wagon - I actually think it is by a substantial margin the strongest put together case right now.

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Post Post #869  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:41 pm

catch-up sorta finished.

Boon, claim your role if it confirms multiball.

As much as I hate voting with thor, peregrine's read on thor for the multiball comment is actually scummy as fuck.

VOTE: pere
Shit.

closer looks at anen, muffin and iza coming up tomorrow.

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Post Post #870  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:46 pm

In post 869, TierShift wrote:Boon, claim your role if it confirms multiball.

no. Do not claim, boon.
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Post Post #871  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:47 pm

I'm indifferent on the claim - I leave it to Boon to make his wn value call.

I like Tier's vote though.
I am dancing like Nero's avatar right now.

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Post Post #872  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:49 pm

I was about to switch it. What do you think?
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Post Post #874  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:51 pm

I know you'll go through this like a knife through butter, but here's my genuine, non-sugarcoated thoughts:

-I don't feel there's anything even close to a smoking gun/genuine scumtell for PV bar maybe that multiball comment. That's it.
-The PV wagon really bores me and makes my eyes glaze over and that's usually a very bad sign.
-These long, drawn out arguments with PereV feel like your conversation is going nowhere at all.
-You're apparently saying townPV doesn't do stuff - this means scumPV does - I haven't seen meta produced to either claim.
-Aneninen's readslists are awful. Aneninen is really blatantly scum. Literally, everything he does is scum, from harp on about his wagon to talking to me like he's both scumreading me and townreading me in the same post. It's horrific. He's a better vote than PV.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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