NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

TierShift
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Post Post #1225  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:35 pm

I called it null, but it WAS creating noise. And some people scumread for that. So I'm fine with that.

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Post Post #1226  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:42 pm

In post 1164, T S O wrote:I mean, when you asked goodmorning why they were scumreading you and you didn't get a satisfactory reply, you gave them a few jabs - surely you don't think I should just lie down while he so blatantly misreps me?

I also noted it was dumb and walked away - like you are being asked to do.

In post 1165, TierShift wrote:What I did find was Thor being adamant on multiball being a safe assumption by using a faulty argument (SK=multiball). Why wouldn't he just say: "Eh, ok, maybe it's not such a safe assumption". Why did he feel attacked?

Because when someone says it is the 'worst thing' you've done, that is an attack - and when you consider the statement quite reasonable (and, look t how Pere is desperate to stick to that 75% thing when the number is closer to 50% and that's *only* if you use my limiter on size, where if you didn't the odds shift in my favor - and he's acting like that's a thing still and kind of going 'but, aw shucks, people are voting me for it'

All while people are still able to spot that there was no scum slip made by me in any way shape or form.
All while Pere is desperate to keep the conversation on a debate of the percentages, that even if he was proved right on wouldn't make my comment scummy.
All while he cannot explain what actually makes it scummy.

It was an attack, and deserved a response. Also, he was scummy in how he responded and in the decision to make the initial comment.

In post 1166, TierShift wrote:Wait, I'm missing something. Thor, can you quote where Pere was pretending to be caught up but wasn't and what showed that he wasn't?

I described the example in my post.
Here is a link to the post in question from Pere that I was describing.
viewtopic.php?p=6264691#p6264691

In post 1175, TierShift wrote:Explain this. He was pushing gm for a real reason for the scumread on you, remarking he didn't find gut/tone strong enough 35 pages in. That's not discrediting, nor is it buddying you. Explain how it is buddying.

That is discrediting - I know of many examples of town using gut that late into the game. Is Goodmorning known for *not* doing this? If so I will immediately retract the statement.
Otherwise it is simply a matter of opinion on the town tell, and I personally think anyone who plays like Muffin probably shouldn't be dinging gut reads.
It is buddying because I had been aware of the attack and had called it serious and he went whole hog at it. If I flipped scum, I would expect someone to consider him a scumbuddy to me for the defense - hence it is also buddying, because he's 'getting my back'.

In post 1179, Nero Cain wrote:Thor; give me a TL:DR on your PV case.

In post 1180, PeregrineV wrote:Give it to me so that a 6-year old can understand it.


viewtopic.php?p=6270527#p6270527

In post 1181, PeregrineV wrote:It did suggest inside knowledge. You didn't "willing to bet there is an SK" or anything of the sort. You used vocabulary that indicated one thing, and are now arguing that you meant something else. Was there an SK mention in your Nero conversation that I missed?
No?
Then why should I "know" that you meant that and not the mafiascum definition of multiball.

That is why the original statement is scummy, and you trying to act like I'm the idiot is also scummy.

What was Nero's comment and what was I arguing about in a way that ruled out SK and ruled in multiball?

In post 1182, PeregrineV wrote:Nero was using multiball to refernce SKs?

He was using it to reference all alignments he would "know" as scum and those he wouldn't.
Since scum wouldn't know an SKs alignment - yes, he was referencing SKs.

In post 1182, PeregrineV wrote:
()Nero: baring multiball, I'd know his alignment and thus would have no need to be wishy washy.

How would Nero the SK know anyone's alignment?
Sounds like he means multiple scum teams, where scumteam A would have to search for scumteam B.

Scumteam A without a scumteam B would also have to search for SKs.
I never said he was an SK, but I did say his comment included the idea of them.

In post 1182, PeregrineV wrote:The short is, if you suspect Nero, then you suspect him, and say why he is scummy.
If you think he is not scummy, then you accept his premise for now. Say so or not.
If you think he is null, you could say nothing, or explain that should the game be multi-ball, then you will get back to him (kind of like I did).

Saying
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption
gets a "If this game turns out to be multi-ball, Thor should get a closer look." from me.

And earns me 7 or 8 votes. :lol:

Yes...but why was my comment more scummy than Nero bringing up multiball?
And when he brought up multiball why was my "certainty" shown and scummy as opposed to his?

In post 1186, Nero Cain wrote:Thor thinks I'm an sk but calls me townish? the Smurf.

Please quote me calling you an SK.
Until then - you are playing poorly.

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Post Post #1227  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:43 pm

In post 810, Egg wrote:Alright, one more short burst. Getting tired though.

Muffin's attack on Pere reads fake. Doesn't mean Pere is town if muffin is scum though. There's always the chance of tow scum groups, SK, or distancing/bussing.



I'd really like you to unpack this, because Muffin's PerV push feels like the best push I've seen in this game. It rubs me up the wrong way that you attack another player's vote on the wagon you're on in a way that explicitly calls the attacking player scum, but then bend over backwards to point out this doesn't weaken your vote on the wagon in any way.

On that note, think PerV is scummy, mostly on the basis of the muffin case, not the Thor case. Thor needs to stop arguing with scum reads, and OH MY GOD when PerV said 'Let's re-start' I thought he meant move past that argument, not bloody well let's have the same argument all over again. It is mildly suspicious that PerV pointed out the potential 'slip' in Thor then admitted he didn't think slipping is something Thor would do as soon as he's challenged on it.

Scripten's gut town. I think Izariael is town who genuinely believes a 'strong null read' is a thing (LOL). Davesaz is really glaringly posting lots of IIoA. Newbie though. Consider this a warning to be more proactive. Nero's playing a very safe game, wouldn't have a problem lynching him, but PerV is better.

In post 861, T S O wrote:that readslist is realllly surface deep, goes through just about every cliche there is and fencesits on some people

in other words, Aneninen is still scum.


Do you expect a readlist on day one of a large to have non-fencesitty opinions on everyone? I mean, LOATPs are kinda generally bad unless doing PoE. But still.

On Boon, the point is that if he's town, scum now knows he's not vanilla anyway. But there's the risk that if he's scum, he's sliding by on a non-specific power claim. I'd lean no claim, just because I think he seems like a bad enough player that not knowing whether he has a major or minor PR if he's town is a significant problem for scum. Bullets to the face of people who have hinted power are bad. *Cough*Thor*Cough*

In post 1121, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1119, The Fonz wrote:At p20. Two things.

Csareo was scumhunting derpily. One of those last two words is alignment relevant.

My predecessor's Nero vote was decent, but I'm going to Vote: PeregrineV because holy shit was #385 bad.


Why/how was it bad?

I see
skating over stuff (not deep thoughts for PereV)
What was the intent?
Too much is funny? (more room for fun when you know alignments?)



Primarily, calling Aneninen's voting reason 'fake' yet doing jack shit about this. Questions TSO's obviously not-serious vote. The only other part of that post that is in any way content is in saying Csareo's posts are 'refreshingly direct' when he kind of hints that he might have a problem with Thor but asks an empty question instead, the obvious answer to which is 'because he's fucking terrible.' It's a glaring filler post.

Other reasons why I'm happy with this: 385 is followed by a post taking issue with Garmr calling Csareo 'town with high chance of idiocy.' Note, not saying anything about the actual read, but objecting to the characterisation as a derp. This is while, as Muffin points out, he's voting Scrip. #501 is a list of all the players far too early to actually have a read on everyone. Combine the LOATP with the silent vote, and he's trying to look like he's posting a decent amount of content, but doing nothing to advance the game. Basically Muffin's #521 is excellent. Then he spends basically the rest of the game to date arguing with Thor but not voting him. His vote has been parked for 35 pages.

Note also PerV calling Boonskies "Probably scum" in #501 and doing precisely jack shit about this before and since. Explanation in #501 of Scripten suspicion also doesn't tally with it being just a sheep (it's also semantics). If the reasoning in #501 was real, why didn't he provide it when previously asked instead of going 'it was a sheep?' This is particularly bad since he attacked Thor by accusing him of doing exactly that in #571.

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Post Post #1228  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:47 pm

I notice that I overuse the phrase 'Jack Shit' in the above post. Feel free to substitute 'fuck all' and 'literally nothing' as you will.

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Post Post #1229  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:06 pm

In post 223, Aneninen wrote:Aaaaand fck the shyt, I had been nearly finished with my catchup when I misclicked and it's gone.
Fortunately, there are not too many things to post about.
Csareo is being Csareo right on Page2. And he goes on like that which is a null and basicly, most of the posts are related to him. In the game I linked he did the very same.
That post-pair from Nero, calling Csareo not-town and town in his next post is a WTF.
Also, need we care about those Day1/2 stuffid claims?

Unfortunately, I have no real reads yet. Mostly because of Csareo, who has been drawing away the focus of the game.
However,
@Those who're scumreading them: what's the case against TSO? What's the case against Toby? These things might be based upon real content but I'm simply too tired to distill the very little real content out of the Csareo–respond-to-Csareo–Csareo–another-respond–Csareo... rondo.

In post 241, Aneninen wrote:
In post 231, TobyLoby wrote:Anen: I mean, I'm reading what you're saying as you having seen Csareo play similarly before and he was town, but you're also calling his play here a null.


Having thought about this question (I woke up about an hour ago) I must admit, my null-read is based upon the assumption that a scum!Csareo wouldn't have a very different gameplay. (I didn't find any games which he was surely scum in.) However, in Mini#1601 (before replaced into his slot on Day1) he had done more vote and read-flipping than here. We must remember this, though this may be a sing of a kind of improvement of his gameplay.

@Thor. I re-checked TOS. He should know Csareo's gameplay well – yet he's putting too much effort into his conversation with him. Also, TSO had voted for "Caesar" and our mod posted that his vote wouldn't be counted. TSO hasn't correct his vote since then (nor did another vote), as far as I can see. These things are disturbing.

In post 250, Aneninen wrote:TSO knows how terrible Csareo is on Day1 and he also knows that he was town in that game. I simply don't understand why TSO's maintaining a long interaction with Csareo – he must have known that by getting involved in that would increase the "noise" in the thread. It's definitely anti-town and – in my opinion – scummy too.
There's something else which is merely an intuition. What if both of them are scum(s) and their Day1 is purely intentional?


Tier, do you think this is a natural progression of reads?
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #1230  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:18 pm

Yes, I do.

Do you have any further points to add to your case or is it gonna stay as bad as it is atm?

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Post Post #1231  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:20 pm

You never know. Apparently I'm seeing different things to you, because that reads progression makes no sense to me.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #1232  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:20 pm

If you want to explain why it makes sense, I'd appreciate it.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #1233  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:25 pm

In post 1227, The Fonz wrote:Davesaz is really glaringly posting lots of IIoA. Newbie though. Consider this a warning to be more proactive.

It would be a bit easier if anyone was commenting on what I say. Some of the information is intended to generate a response which can then be analyzed.
I see a whole lot of stuff going by which either doesn't change my reads or doesn't apply at all. What am I supposed to do, comment on it anyway?

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Post Post #1234  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:34 pm

@TSO:
1. Csareo is null because csareo is always stupid
2. TSO knows csareo is like this, yet puts a lot of effort in the conversation, csareo is still null.
3. TSO keeps on talking to csareo, which generates only noise. TSO is scummy for that.

Completely logical thought process.

As I said, will you add to your shitty case or get out of your stupid tunnel?

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Post Post #1235  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:48 pm

And the second and third post coming without any post from Csareo/I in the interim doesn't change your opinion of this?

#241's discussion on Csareo-meta is worthless and conclusionless - he calls stuff of mine disturbing, then 10 posts later turns around and calls me scum? Why wasn't I scum in #241? Where's the evolution from disturbing ---> anti-town + scumbuddies? I don't see it.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #1236  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:51 pm

In post 1229, T S O wrote:
In post 223, Aneninen wrote:Aaaaand fck the shyt, I had been nearly finished with my catchup when I misclicked and it's gone.
Fortunately, there are not too many things to post about.
Csareo is being Csareo right on Page2. And he goes on like that which is a null and basicly, most of the posts are related to him. In the game I linked he did the very same.
That post-pair from Nero, calling Csareo not-town and town in his next post is a WTF.
Also, need we care about those Day1/2 stuffid claims?

Unfortunately, I have no real reads yet. Mostly because of Csareo, who has been drawing away the focus of the game.
However,
@Those who're scumreading them: what's the case against TSO? What's the case against Toby? These things might be based upon real content but I'm simply too tired to distill the very little real content out of the Csareo–respond-to-Csareo–Csareo–another-respond–Csareo... rondo.

In post 241, Aneninen wrote:
In post 231, TobyLoby wrote:Anen: I mean, I'm reading what you're saying as you having seen Csareo play similarly before and he was town, but you're also calling his play here a null.


Having thought about this question (I woke up about an hour ago) I must admit, my null-read is based upon the assumption that a scum!Csareo wouldn't have a very different gameplay. (I didn't find any games which he was surely scum in.) However, in Mini#1601 (before replaced into his slot on Day1) he had done more vote and read-flipping than here. We must remember this, though this may be a sing of a kind of improvement of his gameplay.

@Thor. I re-checked TOS. He should know Csareo's gameplay well – yet he's putting too much effort into his conversation with him. Also, TSO had voted for "Caesar" and our mod posted that his vote wouldn't be counted. TSO hasn't correct his vote since then (nor did another vote), as far as I can see. These things are disturbing.

In post 250, Aneninen wrote:TSO knows how terrible Csareo is on Day1 and he also knows that he was town in that game. I simply don't understand why TSO's maintaining a long interaction with Csareo – he must have known that by getting involved in that would increase the "noise" in the thread. It's definitely anti-town and – in my opinion – scummy too.
There's something else which is merely an intuition. What if both of them are scum(s) and their Day1 is purely intentional?


Tier, do you think this is a natural progression of reads?

In post 1232, T S O wrote:If you want to explain why it makes sense, I'd appreciate it.


Do you mind if I join in?

Actually, do I care if you mind? Maybe I shouldn't...

  • In 223, I don't think Anen has a read at all, and is asking why other people are scum reading you.
  • In 241, Observing that your vote was not counted and you did nothing to fix it. Questioning that seems reasonable. I thought the same thing at the time (that it was odd you didn't fix the vote). If you really wanted your vote there, I would expect town to revote. Not revoting is something I might expect scum to use as an excuse later. You can point to the (bad) vote and say "see, I did think he was scummy" and perhaps get away with it.
  • In 250, Anen questions why you kept at Csareo so long, and attributes anti-town to the behavior. Then there is a followup thought that you might both be scum. It was around this point that I attributed the whole thing to anger, and others agreed with me.

I don't see anything wrong with the sequence from Anen. It's very easy to see town motivation in Anen's side of that sequence of events. You did something a little questionable, and drew suspicion as a result. What I'm not sure of is why you're continuing to make a big deal about it. I think Anen didn't even vote you until the last 24 hours, after you continued to poke at the subject. What's really mystifying is how you can think the original 3 posts you quoted were scummy, or more accurately how you can think that progression of reads is scummy.

Is this really the focus of your case on Anen, or do you have something stronger and more recent? Thinking Anen could have town motivation for these 3 posts does not necessarily equal a town read.

P-edit: So it's the timing you're concerned about? I often post, think, and post again. Not hard to imagine someone else doing that... Though I'd have to look at the time stamps to see if it was a matter of minutes or hours to know for sure if it's reasonable.

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Post Post #1237  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:54 pm

Well, I 100% despise the whole drivel of "THERE IS SCUM ON MY WAGON! THERE IS! IT'S THAT TSO GUY!" which he's been going for, as well as the whole "I'm-not-talking-to-you" routine, but those are recent.

Oh, and his vote on me is completely reasonless.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #1238  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:54 pm

BTW -- definitely hours. Plenty of time to read and/or think more. So timing itself is debunked.

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Post Post #1239  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:55 pm

That's the thing, though - why didn't he vote me? I mean, he's been calling me scum all game - why did he feel the need to wait until Axle would back him up to go after me?
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #1240  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:55 pm

Ugh, I guess you've maybe got a point there.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #1241  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:56 pm

Is being convinced you're wrong always a bit jarring, or is that just me?
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #1242  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:04 pm

In post 1219, davesaz wrote:
I'm rereading today, should have decent reads on people by the end.

By the end of what? The game? And what do you mean by decent? Will you be providing anything other than gut / meta reads?

The end of the reread, of course.
I already have provided things other than meta reads; most notably, my read on Csareo & slot.
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Post Post #1243  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:36 pm

T S O - Keep the last thing I said in mind though, just because those 3 posts are townish doesn't mean that Anen gets a pass. "Because he won't listen to me" goes both ways as a bad reason for a vote. There is still work to do to sort out whether it's scum acting like bad town, or just bad town.

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Post Post #1244  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:54 pm

In post 1179, Nero Cain wrote: "If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum." is p silly. Scum already know if its mb or not.

Potential scumslip
I think nero just slipped he confirmed that scum know it's multiball

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Post Post #1245  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:05 pm

In post 1244, Garmr wrote:
In post 1179, Nero Cain wrote: "If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum." is p silly. Scum already know if its mb or not.

Potential scumslip
I think nero just slipped he confirmed that scum know it's multiball


Ignore this I didn't read the not thing.

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Post Post #1246  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:17 pm

In post 1244, Garmr wrote:
In post 1179, Nero Cain wrote: "If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum." is p silly. Scum already know if its mb or not.

Potential scumslip
I think nero just slipped he confirmed that scum know it's multiball


Ehhh... I called it out, but I'm not scumreading him too hard for it. Jumping on tiny things like that pushes mislynches. I disagree that it's worth calling it a scumslip.

P-Edit - TBH, even if it didn't have the "or not."

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Post Post #1247  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:26 pm

In post 1246, Scripten wrote:
In post 1244, Garmr wrote:
In post 1179, Nero Cain wrote: "If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum." is p silly. Scum already know if its mb or not.

Potential scumslip
I think nero just slipped he confirmed that scum know it's multiball


Ehhh... I called it out, but I'm not scumreading him too hard for it. Jumping on tiny things like that pushes mislynches. I disagree that it's worth calling it a scumslip.

P-Edit - TBH, even if it didn't have the "or not."


So you do find it scummy through? Since you don't think it's a slip what reason do you find it scummy for?

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Post Post #1248  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:44 pm

Eeeehhhhh.... not really. It's a weird statement, but I can just as easily see it coming from town as scum in either form. There's so much needling over tiny things this game that introducing another one isn't exactly good play.

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Post Post #1249  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:04 pm

Whats weird about it? Seems like it would be basic logic.
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