NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[T S O]

Oh hey, I forgot.

So it goes like this:
1. Anen calls you scum for reasons
2. You refute said reasons
3. Anen ignores you refuting said reasons
4. Anen is scum?

I didn't bother to check if 1-3 are correct, but there is still a major disconnect between 3 and 4.

Aneninen calls me scum for awful, shitty, obviously false reasons. He didn't misunderstand shit - he was just plain lazy wrong. I called him out, he

didn't refute anything I said whatsoever

, and his posts got worse and worse from there. The post where he votes me in the last while is bull about puppets trying to hide the opportunism the vote contains. His original scumread on me was for "creating noise", whatever that's supposed to mean.

In short, none of his stances about me this game have made any sense, from his original weird scumread to trying to push me when I was an easy target and getting called out on it, to not responding to what I said but

still not changing his read,

, to continually voting for Peregrine until Axle votes me and then magically changing his vote. with. no. reasoning. whatsoever.

This thing is so goddamn scummy it could hang itself.

[T S O]

TSO knows how terrible Csareo is on Day1 and he also knows that he was town in that game. I simply don't understand why TSO's maintaining a long interaction with Csareo – he must have known that by getting involved in that would increase the "noise" in the thread. It's definitely anti-town and – in my opinion – scummy too.
There's something else which is merely an intuition. What if both of them are scum(s) and their Day1 is purely intentional?

Yeah.

[T S O]

You think me getting annoyed at Csareo was ...scummy?

[T S O]

Aaaaand fck the shyt, I had been nearly finished with my catchup when I misclicked and it's gone.
Fortunately, there are not too many things to post about.
Csareo is being Csareo right on Page2. And he goes on like that which is a null and basicly, most of the posts are related to him. In the game I linked he did the very same.
That post-pair from Nero, calling Csareo not-town and town in his next post is a WTF.
Also, need we care about those Day1/2 stuffid claims?

Unfortunately, I have no real reads yet. Mostly because of Csareo, who has been drawing away the focus of the game.
However,
@Those who're scumreading them: what's the case against TSO? What's the case against Toby? These things might be based upon real content but I'm simply too tired to distill the very little real content out of the Csareo–respond-to-Csareo–Csareo–another-respond–Csareo... rondo.

Anen: I mean, I'm reading what you're saying as you having seen Csareo play similarly before and he was town, but you're also calling his play here a null.

Having thought about this question (I woke up about an hour ago) I must admit, my null-read is based upon the assumption that a scum!Csareo wouldn't have a very different gameplay. (I didn't find any games which he was surely scum in.) However, in Mini#1601 (before replaced into his slot on Day1) he had done more vote and read-flipping than here. We must remember this, though this may be a sing of a kind of improvement of his gameplay.

@Thor. I re-checked TOS. He

should

know Csareo's gameplay well – yet he's putting too much effort into his conversation with him. Also, TSO had voted for "Caesar" and our mod posted that his vote wouldn't be counted. TSO hasn't correct his vote since then (nor did another vote), as far as I can see. These things are disturbing.

TSO knows how terrible Csareo is on Day1 and he also knows that he was town in that game. I simply don't understand why TSO's maintaining a long interaction with Csareo – he must have known that by getting involved in that would increase the "noise" in the thread. It's definitely anti-town and – in my opinion – scummy too.
There's something else which is merely an intuition. What if both of them are scum(s) and their Day1 is purely intentional?

Tier, do you think this is a natural progression of reads?

[T S O]

You never know. Apparently I'm seeing different things to you, because that reads progression makes no sense to me.

[T S O]

If you want to explain why it makes sense, I'd appreciate it.

[T S O]

And the second and third post coming without any post from Csareo/I in the interim doesn't change your opinion of this?

#241's discussion on Csareo-meta is worthless and conclusionless - he calls stuff of mine disturbing, then 10 posts later turns around and calls me scum? Why wasn't I scum in #241? Where's the evolution from disturbing ---> anti-town + scumbuddies? I don't see it.

[T S O]

Well, I 100% despise the whole drivel of "THERE IS SCUM ON MY WAGON! THERE IS! IT'S THAT TSO GUY!" which he's been going for, as well as the whole "I'm-not-talking-to-you" routine, but those are recent.

Oh, and his vote on me is completely reasonless.

[T S O]

That's the thing, though - why didn't he vote me? I mean, he's been calling me scum all game - why did he feel the need to wait until Axle would back him up to go after me?

[T S O]

Ugh, I guess you've maybe got a point there.

[T S O]

Is being convinced you're wrong always a bit jarring, or is that just me?

[T S O]

ugh

[T S O]

An opinion on Thor vs Pere? An opinion on TSO vs Anen?

What are yours?

[T S O]

If you just got caught up then why not post some reads? An opinion on Thor vs Pere? An opinion on TSO vs Anen? Literally anything but a weak question about a joke post?

Erm, I did.

You did? I must be missing it - quote?

[T S O]

that readslist is realllly surface deep, goes through just about every cliche there is and fencesits on some people
in other words, Aneninen is still scum.

Do you expect a readlist on day one of a large to have non-fencesitty opinions on everyone? I mean, LOATPs are kinda generally bad unless doing PoE. But still.of content, but doing nothing to advance the game.

Clearly I'm still missing it - this is all I can see, and I sure as hell don't count that as a read.

I am going to look so fucking stupid if I've missed a post or something

[T S O]

that readslist is realllly surface deep, goes through just about every cliche there is and fencesits on some people
in other words, Aneninen is still scum.

Do you expect a readlist on day one of a large to have non-fencesitty opinions on everyone? I mean, LOATPs are kinda generally bad unless doing PoE. But still.of content, but doing nothing to advance the game.

Clearly I'm still missing it - this is all I can see, and I sure as hell don't count that as a read.

I am going to look so fucking stupid if I've missed a post or something

This is me asking you a question because I'm trying to get a read. How about you not be a dick and answer it?

I wasn't being a dick - I was just pointing out my opinion (which was wrong but let's not talk about that now.)

Thor

– Thor is just being Thor. Is it easy to get annoyed by his style? Yes. Does that mean that he's scum? No. What I see is a town-Thor (though I've played with him only twice). But, there is something else.

Somehow I can feel that he's nervous. But since there's no wagon against him this must be a town-frustration, in my opinion. Probably town.

This is one of Aneninen's reads. I do not understand how the bolded adds up whatsoever.

He's nervous ---> but he's not being voted ---> frustrated town. Maybe you can see it, Fonz, I can't.

[T S O]

I might get to this tomorrow.

[T S O]

mmm.

[T S O]

I don't really feel like playing Mafia one bit tonight - maybe tomorrow.

[T S O]

think I'm just going to do a re-read or something - moivation to play this game has kinda been shot to shit, but I'll see what I can do.

[T S O]

I'm talking about Aneninen when I finish my re-read.

Axle's case is still awful and he really shouldn't be allowed to do nothing but push it in lieu of actually, I don't know, scumhunting.

[T S O]

Using a hard scumread as the basis for my reads is actually quite a solid tactic, Anen, and it's really not indicative one way or another.

[T S O]

I prefer his lynch over a tso/thor lynch which I view as a tvt

There's a TSO v. Thor thing going on?

I was mixing up pere with thor I am town reading pere as well. Sorry my bad.

I wasn't aware I was up for lynch.

[T S O]

I think Scripten is town.

[T S O]

Aaaaand fck the shyt, I had been nearly finished with my catchup when I misclicked and it's gone.
Fortunately, there are not too many things to post about.
Csareo is being Csareo right on Page2. And he goes on like that which is a null and basicly, most of the posts are related to him. In the game I linked he did the very same.
That post-pair from Nero, calling Csareo not-town and town in his next post is a WTF.
Also, need we care about those Day1/2 stuffid claims?

Unfortunately, I have no real reads yet. Mostly because of Csareo, who has been drawing away the focus of the game.
However,
@Those who're scumreading them: what's the case against TSO? What's the case against Toby? These things might be based upon real content but I'm simply too tired to distill the very little real content out of the Csareo–respond-to-Csareo–Csareo–another-respond–Csareo... rondo.

Anen: I mean, I'm reading what you're saying as you having seen Csareo play similarly before and he was town, but you're also calling his play here a null.

Having thought about this question (I woke up about an hour ago) I must admit, my null-read is based upon the assumption that a scum!Csareo wouldn't have a very different gameplay. (I didn't find any games which he was surely scum in.) However, in Mini#1601 (before replaced into his slot on Day1) he had done more vote and read-flipping than here. We must remember this, though this may be a sing of a kind of improvement of his gameplay.

@Thor. I re-checked TOS. He

should

know Csareo's gameplay well – yet he's putting too much effort into his conversation with him. Also, TSO had voted for "Caesar" and our mod posted that his vote wouldn't be counted. TSO hasn't correct his vote since then (nor did another vote), as far as I can see. These things are disturbing.

TSO knows how terrible Csareo is on Day1 and he also knows that he was town in that game. I simply don't understand why TSO's maintaining a long interaction with Csareo – he must have known that by getting involved in that would increase the "noise" in the thread. It's definitely anti-town and – in my opinion – scummy too.
There's something else which is merely an intuition. What if both of them are scum(s) and their Day1 is purely intentional?

Tier, do you think this is a natural progression of reads?

Hi, please explain what you find unnatural about it in a way that shows him to be scum. (or even more likely than random)

Aneninen does indeed proceed and play in way that would not be natural if you did it. That does not make him scum.

"I have no reads, can I have opinions?"
"TSO should know better than to talk with Csareo - is he scum?"
"TSO could be scum - maybe they're BOTH scum!"

It doesn't add up. And don't justify it as "he just plays weird." Doesn't wash.

[T S O]

I believe boons soft roleclaim as I don't see why scum would do it. I will agree through his done pretty much nothing all game.

Yes, he may be a town-PR, but he may be a scum too who wants to get a "free card" for a while. I still don't understand why he softclaimed at all. (Especally since it's in contract with his post. I mean with the

lack

of his posts.)

@Scripten. I've checked it. Your gameplay here is very far from the one you were scum in. It's not a very strong alignment tell though. That game was a Newbie and this one is a Large Normal with 21 players and the total amount of finished games is quite low.

So, what you think he's doing if he's scum, is making a claim which will probably come out on d2/d3 and get him lynched or heavily pressured?

[T S O]

Yeah, but if he is deliberately pushing this, you'd assume he's decently powered.

Hence, why would he do that to himself as scum?

[T S O]

I literally cannot describe how sick I am of you randomly asking me stuff, me responding even though I know it's a bad idea, you illogically misrepping me, and yelling I'm scum.

I won't describe anything because you lack the abilities required to actually intelligently interpret it.

[T S O]

Coming from fucking you? What the fuck have you done all game?

[T S O]

I don't really like Axle's interpretation of trajectory and I won't really be trusting it for anyone, aside from it being Axle.

[T S O]

Coming from fucking you? What the fuck have you done all game?

Besides tunnelling me without providing a real case (...as other players have noticed it as well), what the f-ck have you done all game?

But, you know, what? Until we have new reads, let's finish posting about each other. Both of us are thinking that the other one is scum. You'd never admit, I suppose, that you're wrong. However, I

never

say that it's 100.00% that I'm right. I'm not afraid of getting lynched because of you; I'll flip town and that will give the town valuable infromation. I'd eagerly lynch you because I think you're scum and I'm not afraid of facing the music if I'm wrong and you flip town. But, right now we're getting nowhere. Therefore, a fight like this doesn't help the town – but helps the scums

a lot

! I'm not moving my vote until I find someone scummier and I suggest you doing the same.

This makes 0 fucking sense, by the way. He says he wants to lynch me and he's willing to face it if I'm town - then says our fight is helping scum and is bad?

If you want to back away, Aneninen, go ahead and try it, but attempting to disguise it under a pile of bull just makes it look stupid.

[T S O]

I don't think anyone in Axle-Anen-TSO is deliberately misrepping anyone else. Jury's still out on whether they're deliberately WORDS.

Then Anen, and especially Axle, must be magnificent at misrepping-by-accident.

[T S O]

Hephaestus is a lurk-scum, in my opinion. He promises posts all the time but those posts never arrive.

Or he's just a lurker - this justification doesn't make any difference to his alignment.

[T S O]

But you're using doubletalk. You're speaking as if I'm scum, then town, then town. And taking those stances lets you do whatever you want - including flipping a read on me if need be.

[T S O]

Hephaestus is a lurk-scum, in my opinion. He promises posts all the time but those posts never arrive.

Or he's just a lurker - this justification doesn't make any difference to his alignment.

I'd love to hear about your Heph read. See, I'm talking about other people! You should try it!

[T S O]

What's the problem with both terseness to Thor + bickering with Csareo? I don't get it.

[T S O]

You do? Because that meta is of me as town, so I have no idea how it makes me look bad.

I'd sure love to know!

[T S O]

Fair enough.

I don't agree with the noisetell, but it's not like I'll actually convince you of its uselessness anyway.

[T S O]

Pere, who do you want dead today?

[T S O]

A reads list or some other sort of proof you don't have a death tunnel on Aneninen would also be nice.

But I kinda -did- have a deathtunnel on Aneninen. Still sorta do. I have no problem with admitting this.

Axle, what are your reads? Show me how it's done.

[T S O]

I'm so obviously scum and you so obviously town I'm sure you have some concrete reads at this stage, excluding me.

[T S O]

How it's done is you back your reads up before you ask me for mine so I can't do what I'm about to now and call you out on not having any.

[T S O]

I am making a prediction you will not do this, and somehow claim it to be further evidence of me being scum.

[T S O]

Do you actually understand what I'm asking you to do? It's not repeat bullshit rhetoric, I guarantee you.

I'm so obviously scum and you so obviously town I'm sure you have some concrete reads at this stage, excluding me.

Put up or shut up, preferably the latter.

[T S O]

I really don't care what you're willing or not to do. You don't have any reads, and you're harping on about me in an attempt to somehow pull the rug over that.

[T S O]

I really have no idea why you'd continue to ignore this question, since from town-Axle's POV this is giving scum-me a way to evade questioning ...but these natural town thought processes never seem to occur to you, funnily enough.

[T S O]

Okay, Axle, maybe if you keep on completely ignoring what I'm saying, that'll get people to think you're right.

Hint: that's sarcasm.

[T S O]

This game is the first time I encountered Csareo.

Did you think he was town?

[T S O]

Jesus, Pere vs Thor is incredibly fucking boring.

[T S O]

So you have no reads or attempts to make other reads, and are perfectly fine with that?

didnt say that

Functionally, yes you did, actually.

Flubber, I don't get why you dropped this when it got a little heated. If he has no reads, he's using this tunnel on me to escape literally doing anything else. You really shouldn't be okay with that. Don't let him intimidate you.

[T S O]

He says he has reads - functionally (in practice) he doesn't.

[T S O]

Actually, not really. At all.

[T S O]

I'll catch up and post tonight - skimmed v quickly today.

[T S O]

The TSO vs Axle arguement is a little boring, but I feel like I should throw in my two cents. Axle asked TSO for Aneninen's posts that absolutely can NOT come from town. TSO gives a quote wall and attacks Axle for focusing on the RVS vote in the quote wall. I actually think Axle is making a good point that TSO is making more of a case than what is actually there, especially when he admits that the RVS post was more "I disagree with" than "town couldn't possibly" because at that point, TSO isn't really doing what was asked of him to make his case.

This paragraph probably deserves to be broken down and minutely disintegrated by logic - but this'll have to do.

Axle's question firstly, was an idiotic question. Your question, below, is also an idiotic question. I cannot prove that "town couldn't possibly say this." I can prove scum are more likely to say it. I can prove town have no logical reason to say it.

There is no point in me explaining why I think Anen is scum (and that's not as strong a read as it was) and why Axle's taking of the RVS quote was so stupid until you get that point.

As for my conclusion on the arguement, Axle looks obvtown. TSO, not so much.

are you high off your tits

he's literally has posted the same monotonous bullshit for 10 pages straight.
but you're obviously okay with Axle repeating himself constantly, though - why do you think that's a towntell again?

ohh, and he's trying to bullshit his way around his lack of reads. v town.

I don't understand why people are having trouble reading Axle's posts...The only thing that bothers me is that I phone post, so spoiler tags are basically the same as invisible text which isn't allowed for very good reason.

I haven't read Axle's posts and my sanity is beginning to return - they actually give me a headache to read. I recently finished a game where Reck gave farside abuse for being borderline illiterate. Farside is significantly more literate than Axle.

Gamr's push on Aneninen is getting so bad.

Garmr is pushing Axle, Egg.

If anyone wants to talk about why Aneninen is scum, I'm open to that.

Let's talk. Start by summarizing your case. Use only the strongest arguements and show me why this absolutely can not be town.

So without the "fucking shitty" etc to make it sound worse, TSO, let me know if I'm understanding your Aneninen case correctly. He called you scum. You said his reasons were bad. He didn't respond. Town would absolutely 100% of the time respond, so he's scum?

Read above and below, and don't expect a response next time if you summarise things like this.

I don't understand why you're trying to misrep my point when you're good enough and it's clear enough not to have to.

Aneninen, at a time where I was easy to attack, called me scum for bullshit reasons.
I debunked his bull and told him to back it up.
He didn't respond, reply or defend himself in any way.
He still had a scumread on me.
I voted him.
I was now even more scum.

Where do you not understand this, Egg?

Aneninen, can I have your thoughts on the two lines I'm posting before this one?

Why are you treating Aneninen with kid gloves?

Tier, I disagree with you where you say Aneninen's 418 doesn't at least imply a scum read on TSO.

Oh, it definitely implies a scumread on me. Problem is, I snapped out of being an emo bitch and attacked him for shitty reasoning, and he ...walked away and never replied or defended himself, while still having a scumread on me.

I'm sure you can defend the above, so go ahead.

[T S O]

Catching-up. @TSO. As for Hephaestus, ISO him! Naked vote for Nero. Half-hearted focusing on me. Null-ing PerV (not unsorted/unsure, NULL). Naked vote for me. Naked unvote from me. And promises, promises that he will post his reads. Need I say more?

Yes. The majority of those things point to him not giving a fuck about this game. I don't think you're going to be able to prove the difference between that and scum here.

[T S O]

To tell the truth, I've had an intuition that he had been protecting me because of trying to get towncredits in case of my mislynch.

I am not protecting you.

Indeed what you claim doesn't make sense is me not protecting you by claiming you are town.

I have in the thread only claimed I find TSO reasons suspect.

if you actually got lynched or vigged and flipped town, I get no "credit" for guessing you were town, because as you just observed I never said you were town....

I will get towny credit if TSO flips scum.

please try and make your theories fit the facts.

Egg you should also explain to me how town could possibly post this.

[T S O]

[quote="In post 1689, davesaz"]I've been troubled by TSO returning to the same set of 3 posts, especially after he had appeared ready to drop it in 1239. His posts in the vicinity of 1331 and again at 1371 look to be ducking the game, perhaps to see if the focus on his tunnel will subside. But then he's back at it in 1470./quote]

I agree with this, to an extent. I actually tried to not respond for a bit, but Axle literally keeps throwing shit no matter what I do, so I may as well defend my name against his slander.

[T S O]

reinoe please play and don't troll this town could really do with someone saying something intelligible

[T S O]

Catching-up. @TSO. As for Hephaestus, ISO him! Naked vote for Nero. Half-hearted focusing on me. Null-ing PerV (not unsorted/unsure, NULL). Naked vote for me. Naked unvote from me. And promises, promises that he will post his reads. Need I say more?

Yes. The majority of those things point to him not giving a fuck about this game. I don't think you're going to be able to prove the difference between that and scum here.

Hephaestus did something similar in a game before, it was abandoned but he was scum.

Heph also did something similar in a game before which was abandoned where he was town.

Are you sure you're right? I don't think so.

[T S O]

I'm not particularly townreading him, don't get me wrong, but I'm definitely not scumreading him.

[T S O]

why would Pere have any sure knowledge as to whether scum specifically have daytalk here

if you wanted to see the general trend, you could simply have done it yourself.

that's a shit question which serves no purpose.

[T S O]

#1713 is you talking a lot of words but saying precious little.

[T S O]

If it makes you feel better, Nero, the feeling is reciprocated in full.

In my most recent game, I dayvigged scum and removed a third party d2 and d1 before tricking the final scum into claiming incorrectly.

What have you done recently, except push town mislynches and play like a girl?

[T S O]

you fucking hypocrite

I'm not responding to you asking for Aneninen's scummy shit because I'd be wasting my time with you
When you're asked for my scummy shit you literally jump right over it and try to change the question

[T S O]

unvote
vote: axle

you're not derptown - I thought you were, but you're not.

[T S O]

says the guys that just mislynched 5 town

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58247-4 correct scum reads

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 46542-even as scum i had 3 correct reads

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58466-3 correct scum reads, had a 4th but got distracted

hey remember fe awakening where you were so shit we had to policy vig you as town! lol
hey remember completely ridiculous where you were so shit you got ran up d1? lol
hey remember the majority of your games where you were awful? lol

[T S O]

it's really funny how you're also trying to call me scum because I'm insulting you - why don't you go ahead and back it up?

[T S O]

Also, I kinda apologise to everyone for my vitriol but not really - Nero is and always has been a special case.

[T S O]

No you literally

didn't read what I just posted

if that's the conclusion - I am voting you for being a rank hypocrite on the most important issue you should have.

You are solely scumreading me for not giving my Aneninen scum-reasons to you.
When you're asked for TSO scum-reasons, you completely dodge around it and try to make Thor analyse me instead.

From your point of view as town, you'd see the disconnect between doing it and calling it scum as well. You didn't.

[T S O]

To avoid any difficulties TSO has evaluated his own intentions interacting with Csaero as

"A more productive wagon."
There were no productive wagons at the time - the only thing I did/felt like doing was mildly ripping the piss out of you.

pretty sure ripping the piss is not towny, so please don't suggest any of the TSO/Csaero interactions were towny.

I mean this is a gross, horrendous misrep - you've taken my post #152 when Csareo's final posts were far, far beyond that - he'd made

over 25 more posts

before he got replaced.

That's not a mistaken misrep - you would actually have to choose to go to the middle of my ISO, have a look around to see if there were any Csareo interactions after,

then see there were, then post this anyway.

[T S O]

In my most recent game, I

dayvigged scum

and removed a third party d2 and d1 before tricking the final scum into claiming incorrectly.

which game was that?

In this recent game you

day vigged town.

Shot
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6292281
Flip
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6292302

I'm actually really embarrassed for you.

The shot, and the flip.

I even said that the scum shot was d2 and the third party removal d1.

[T S O]

Thanks for not refuting my accusation in any way, though.

I'm also done talking about other games.

[T S O]

Slandaar you should probably look at recent stuff.

If you want to waste your time and kill motivation by reading 70+ pages, go ahead, but it's really better if you just post content soon.

[T S O]

No you literally

didn't read what I just posted

if that's the conclusion - I am voting you for being a rank hypocrite on the most important issue you should have.

You are solely scumreading me for not giving my Aneninen scum-reasons to you.
When you're asked for TSO scum-reasons, you completely dodge around it and try to make Thor analyse me instead.

From your point of view as town, you'd see the disconnect between doing it and calling it scum as well. You didn't.

No I asked Thor to look for any reason you are town as I frankly cant see any of any significance.

That lack of towny motivated posts, is a reason for scum reading you.

That you point blank refuse to justify the person you are voting and the wagon you are supposedly trying to get lynched, is a really good reason to scum read you.

When was I asked for reasons TSO is scum?

Constantly repeating yourself and expecting different responses is idiotic, by the way - I'd prefer if you either responded to people calling you scum or did a better job of calling me scum. The former is obviously better, but at least the latter wouldn't be as painful to read.

[T S O]

Do you think your question is productive Axle?

I like you. There is a strong argument its not productive and just fuelling things. I struggled with it.

but the way I talked myself into it is,
claiming previous high accuracy is a kind of appeal to the authority of past success.
While that is a bad argument, I was not sure it would not be persuasive to some people.

Unless I ask it is not certain I found the right game, and I was looking for the right game to see just how good he was at his best.
(I do understand and read that day vig is rare)

I am open to an argument i lied to myself(wishful thinking), and it wasn't productive, so I should feel bad.

Oh, and also, this entire line of questioning is irrelevant. I don't think I'm great - I haven't posted once that I'm particularly great except in response to Nero. The reason for that was that Nero literally posts that he wants to policy lynch me every game because ??? and while that'd be irritating from a good player, his level of play isn't good enough to justify ever asking for a policy lynch on anyone.

Can you show me where this tell of yours has worked in the past? If you can I'll show you Town who did it, and then we can agree the tell is null and you're just flinging shit to see what sticks.

[T S O]

I am beginning to feel very happy with this vote.

[T S O]

In my most recent game, I

dayvigged scum

and removed a third party d2 and d1 before tricking the final scum into claiming incorrectly.

which game was that?

In this recent game you

day vigged town.

Shot
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6292281
Flip
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6292302

I'm actually really embarrassed for you.

The shot, and the flip.

I even said that the scum shot was d2 and the third party removal d1.

Good thing I asked a question then eh.
When you made the shot, what gave the scum away? was it the mod confirmed post http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6306849

Actually, it was TierShift's scummy play - but yes, Axle, that's what it was.

Did you read the part afterwards?

[T S O]

wait I said I wasn't going to talk about outside games, ignore the above.

nice dig at the end, Nero. Show off your maturity.

[T S O]

I find this speculation a bit pointless. First of all, there might be an SK, regardless of the size of the scum team(s). Second, a 17:2:2 would be way to swingy, in my opinion. Unless all the scums are x-shot bulletproof or something like that but, we'll never be able to find these things out until we see a scumflip (or more)..

not really speculating. I'm backing up my accusation that scum already know the size of their team and thus have a good insight into weather the game is mb or not. This was also a reply to Garmrs accusation that I was contradicting myself 'cause I was (slightly) backtracking that scum knew if it was mb or not. I also think 3 kills a night are a no so its gonna be 1 team + sk or two teams.

thank you for your generic set-up speculation - I feel much better knowing you have a basic grasp of how Mafia works.

[T S O]

Okay, Nero, let's just not talk anymore - your repressed anger is beginning to spill out and that's bad for the town.

[T S O]

I have no problem backing my case up.

I have a problem with backing it up when asked by Axle.

I also think you -should- look up my appeal to authority - it was used directly against Nero, and I literally

never said or attempted to say

it had any bearing here.

[T S O]

fair enough.

[T S O]

We get it, we get it, you're softclaiming a PR and scum are going to keep you alive-

oh wait, plan flaw

[T S O]

yes I'll post it in my QT now

[T S O]

I have no idea what you are - I think that you're either a PR or a VT trying to soak PR shots.

If you're the latter, playing now would be great.

[T S O]

Yeah.

[T S O]

the case is coming, btw, surely but very slowly.

[T S O]

If anyone wants me to respond to that, ask. Otherwise, I'll just continue with the case on Anen.

The above is heavily filled with misreps and fallacies, but I'd still prefer not to have to waste an hour taking it apart.

[T S O]

My playstyle is to call stuff I think is shit, shit. It doesn't mean I think I'm great. You know that, Axle, so why are you trying to say I do?

Also, many people have played with scum-me here and know my playstyle - Thor, for one, has and he's not scumreading me. Fairly sure gm has, he's not scumreading me. Cho has and, afaik, she wasn't scumreading me. Garmr probably has. PeregrineV has and he's not scumreading me either.

Either you think I'm supernaturally good at subverting my town meta, or I'm town. You're claiming the former, but you're not really backing it up one bit,

[T S O]

Axle, have you even read any of my scumgames?

[T S O]

oh goddd not 1492

that was a really awful game where I lurked and then threw the game

[T S O]

I don't, usually.

When someone repeatedly tunnels for me for 10+ pages straight and shows no interest in changing their opinion when they get answers, that's when I get hostile.

[T S O]

I haven't provided -any- resistance to answering when the question is asked by anyone but you (case in point: when I was asked, I've started to make it) because I have no interest in wasting my time posting information no-one wants except you, when you'll just twist whatever I say into me being scum.

[T S O]

My self-masochism has its limits.

[T S O]

TSO can you actually post in one place why you think/thought Aneninen is scum please?

Yeah, yeah, I'm doing it.

I haven't provided -any- resistance to answering when the question is asked by anyone but you (case in point: when I was asked, I've started to make it) because I have no interest in wasting my time posting information no-one wants except you, when you'll just twist whatever I say into me being scum.

see1877, for why doing that is not anti-town and thus scum motivated.

Also oooh goody so you wont talk to the one guy that suspects you. go team TSO.

Imagine if you had,
by now you would have all my claimed but now non existent examples of me twisting your words
and thus lynching me, if only I was scum would be breeze?

How come you are not doing that? (and thus determining my alignment)

Do you know something about my alignment you should not?

Hey look you're scummy again.

This post

beautifully

illustrates my point about you not caring about the answers you get or the logic you use and calling me scum anyway. Thank you.

[T S O]

Oh hey, look, Tier said he wasn't 100% reading! Hey Axle, here's my scumbuddy!

[T S O]

Aneninen, what exactly are your reads right now?

[T S O]

I'm rather disappointed that the Axle wagon hasn't taken off, but my credibility is dead in the water, so yeah.

[T S O]

Thor - because I feel my vote is more fruitful where it is.

I'm not particularly townreading Peregrine like I was and he could be scum, I guess, because I usually townread Peregrine when I ISO him in isolation and that really hasn't happened this game. Maybe that's indicative for Peregrine being scum. Maybe it's indicative of him having an off game. I don't know. At the moment I don't really care either because I don't have enough time for this game in general.

[T S O]

The Aneninen shit is coming but jesus fuck I think I'm going to have to declare V/LA again because I'm snowed in with schoolwork.

[T S O]

Pressuring a greater scumread, for one.

[T S O]

Fucking fine.

Vote: PeregrineV

If that'll get you off my fucking back, great.

[T S O]

i'm out.

[T S O]

just checked in - Axle, I'm super scared of your double vote btw.

[T S O]

@axle oh well the misunderstanding caused me to meta tso which is a positive thing.

If TSO is “so easily bullied into things.”

Unlike tso I'm not so easily bullied into things.

What did this post mean and why?

Fucking fine.

Vote: PeregrineV

If that'll get you off my fucking back, great.

How to shatter a town read by tso.

It means the fact that tso gave in ruined my image of him. I had a image that tso took no shit and stood for what he believed in like me but the fact he caved into thor so easily ruined that image of him.

I actually think I'm going to cry, no joke.

I'm not even fucking happy that after all this time, there's FINALLY a push on Aneninen, because of this.

:/

[T S O]

I don't really regret my vote but I regret it sullied my image, I guess. :/

Unvote

[T S O]

Vote: Aneninen

case is up in next 2 days.

[T S O]

Tier, what are your feelings on Axle?

[T S O]

Vote: Aneninen

case is up in next 2 days.

You also still haven't addressed my question about why you said what you said when you voted Pere.
My pressure on you...wasn't much pressure at all, yet you popped like an overripe grape.

Because the way the argument inevitably goes is I make my case on Axle, you say I'm wasting my time, we back-and-forth, I lose the argument and end up sheepishly voting Peregrine.

I, as I've said before, am both too highly-strung and too busy to do that.

[T S O]

And as well as that it's not like I'm even fucking townreading Peregrine anyway.

[T S O]

Axle, does it ever get boring when someone

keeps

ignoring you and you keep posting stuff to them anyway?

Because to me it looks like a handy way to look busy.

[T S O]

egg can you talk about your read on me

because you don't seem to really like anything I do at all and some of it is reaching. like the pt/qt thing.

[T S O]

Because the way the argument inevitably goes is I make my case on Axle, you say I'm wasting my time, we back-and-forth, I lose the argument and end up sheepishly voting Peregrine.

I, as I've said before, am both too highly-strung and too busy to do that.

That is meaningless - the only issue is whether or not you think I'm right about the wagon states and the needs of town.
If I am, you should join me.
If not, you should tell me to sod off.
The only way there is a middle point is if you have no idea - and if you have no idea you shouldn't get pissy about it.

It's not as black and white as that.

I'm scumreading Pere, but not as strongly as others, who I'd prefer dead.
But I'm not articulate enough to argue what I believe. Maybe that's because what I believe is intrinsically flawed. I'm not sure.
This conversation has already happened once this game - I'm willing to vote Pere, as shown when I did.
My personal viewpoint is that vanity wagon votes are acceptable at this point in the game (or were.) Yours is that they're not.
I don't think I can win that argument, so I irritably didn't bother.

Happy?

[T S O]

I hate this game so much.

What's your problem?

[T S O]

no-one gives a fuck if you vote me

[T S O]

still no-one gives a fuck

[T S O]

That's a lot more reasonable than before.

Again, I'm trying to get that shit up, but I get 10 mins in the morning and maybe 20-30 in the night if I'm lucky. That's for Internet in general. it's difficult, but I'll do it.

[T S O]

think garmr's town. think gm is also town.

[T S O]

because the pushes she makes don't make any sense for scum-gm to make unless she has a death wish.

[T S O]

Why would scum-GM randomly decide to push Thor?

[T S O]

Why would scum-GM randomly decide to push Thor?

well, why the heck would she not? Why would her scumreading thor make her have a 'death wish'?

Because there was no support for Thor being scum at the time and, more importantly, Thor is probably one of the worst players to pick a fight with as scum onsite due to his proficiency in winning arguments, propensity to re-evaluate reads and even tunnel if need be. GM's not stupid.

[T S O]

Peregrine's jump on Anen is awful.

However, I still want Anen dead.

What do?

[T S O]

Dayvig anen

you have no idea how much I wish this was Love/Hate

but it ain't.

[T S O]

Hey, wait, it wasn't that bad after all. But I derped by jumping to conclusions anyway. lol

TSO -- you

still

owe that case. I'm seriously considering sheeping onto your wagon for this reason.

I KNOW MY MOTIVATION IS SHOT TO SHIT TO DO IT BUT NOT DOING IT GIVES AXLE A REASON TO CALL ME SCUM

[T S O]

Because going back 700+ pages in his ISO, there has been no mention of Aneninen and it's really just him saving his own skin.

[T S O]

No he hasn't?

[T S O]

a very quick count tells me 20 of those 26 mentions are in quotes, not new posts (one post is a constantly rehashed readslist I didn't include).

still don't agree one bit.

[T S O]

Pere, what do you think about 1969?

It seems like a continuation of the Slandaar read in 1961. The reasons seem to be the opposite of why I'm a scumread (863), but maybe he just hates people catching up or calling them catch-up posts.

Either way, seems upset about the Goodmorning vote and the reason behind it.

Never mentions Aeronaut previously except once, so doubt they are scum together.

I was talking in terms of townish-scummy, you don't need to describe what the post says.

I think it's scummish on the surface, but I'm not backchecking the links to check the allegations. So call it null, but I'll probably end up voting the Anen wagon since it;s the only counter to my own.

in fact pere even fucking says that he doesn't have an actual reason to think that anen is scum

the fuck you smoking muffin?

[T S O]

I can't even remember what heph did and I'm too tired to check

[T S O]

i'll catch up even though i really don't feel like it. i think this shit will come tonight if i can get on a roll.

sorry.

[T S O]

if you want to stop playing that card that'd be

great

[T S O]

Holy walls.

I just spent at least an hour and a half, maybe more, trying to triple-iso Anen, TSO and Axle. I am now very confident Anen-TSO is a town fight that spiralled from Anen initially interpreting a couple of TSO posts in a really weird way, then TSO dismissing a decent point of Anen's as terrible... TSO makes a couple of factually false representations of Anen's play... Basically it feels like their antipathy has snowballed into this perpetual motion of mutual loathing and incomprehension. I'm not voting for either any time soon.

i do?

[T S O]

I'd love you to pinpoint how I misrepped Aneninen and I'd love you to tell me where we've previously played together.

[T S O]

I am happy to believe TSO gets his jollies like that, but it doesnt actually fit with my recollection of his play in the past.

Before you tell me I'm not following the game, get fucking literate. Thanks.

[T S O]

it's axle

[T S O]

tho anen's also probably scum, so whatever works for you. or peregrine.

i just realised i support all the large d1 wagons. fuck.

[T S O]

yeah, of course. let me check.

*checks ISO for approximately 5 seconds*

oh, your constant tunnelling bullshit as an excuse to do nothing but complain about me being scum, more bull about Aneninen's alignment, not giving a shit about the responses you get, being a hypocrite by tunnelling me and misrepping me yet simultaneously saying I'm apparently scum for doing the same for Anen.

how about that?

[T S O]

oh, and your mindset in saying that "TSO could be scum with Aneninen, but could also be scum with Aneninen as town" and then NEVER following that up with any kind of relevant comment, such as associative tells or things you thought could/couldn't be posted by scumbuddies. that's also shit.

but of course everyone will just talk around me as usual and I'll be weakly scumread by the whole game. it's a thing for me with d1 of larges.

[T S O]

gm think you're town but I really don't like your Thor wagon at all. either sell it the fuck up or book your ticket on anen.

[T S O]

Tiershift is town. I like his posts. I'm almost ready to sheep him if needed. (Isn't it ironic, Cho? ^_^)
Thor is town. His posts are good, they are about scumhunting. (Also, I've seen town-Thor and scum-Thor – though only 1–1 games – and This is Town-thor. He's another player I'd sheep if needed ^_^)
Toby is town, I think.
Cho – unsure. I didn't find her scummy before but that vote was uhh.
TSO is scummy. See the part above.
Garmr is FoS-Scum.
Goodmorning is still town, no change here.
GrayFox may be town but we need more posts.

feel really awful about not posting that goddamn case so here's something. lots of these don't make sense. specifically, him thinking he can read Thor perfectly with 1-1 sampling, Cho being scum for voting me (also scum), etc.

[T S O]

This is also a reminder to myself that I should stop putting stock in TSO's reads.

where's this coming from?

if you mean this game then yeah I've been utterly shit and insipid so far

if you mean globally, then I'd disagree with you. reads in, example, l/h were decent-ish.

but, again, what's this coming from?

[T S O]

but like really what the fuck are you even pushing

me being lazy makes me scum? is that it?

Because, let's be honest, me being scum means one of these scenarios must be true:

1) I am fantastically lazy as scum and so will not post existing reasons.
2) I am unable, as scum, to fabricate reasons for scumreading a very scummy-looking player.

Which are you going for, Axle?

[T S O]

your case is already shit and you didn't even make half a start.

That was @2365

@2366: it comes from me just following along in my mind with some of your reads because you are the player posting the most. But now I realise ALL of your reads this game have been utter shit.

well, thanks, I guess

it really gets brought home when you say it. much love, tiershift, much love.

[T S O]

I will expect you to show me the stuff that you saw back then that is so bad(disgreed with) (not just that it is unarguably bad) but that you conclude for it to be that bad Aneninen must be or is quite likely to be scum, because as town he would not be that bad.

can you show me one piece of evidence from my ISO which fits this. or anyone's. doesn't even have to be this game. as long as it's not a scum qt slip or some shit.

[T S O]

I still think TSO is a better lynch but I will come back just before deadline to hammer if necessary

you voted me for apparently not having reasons to vote pere
I proved you were spouting shit
now I'm still a great vote? w o w

[T S O]

just not gonna respond to axle. I know I've said this so many times but I really need to stop it.

[T S O]

No, but I actually feel motivated at the moment and maybe today is the day I actually get shit done.

Muffin, why am I scum?

[T S O]

how many times have I even asked this question today?

[T S O]

you have literally the most annoying tone ever when you post

your English is good, but speaking like you have a stick up your ass is not.

[T S O]

Imagine if you actually gave a reason for me being scum?
Or even responded to me proving your Pere accusation against me was terrible?
Wouldn't that be magical?

[T S O]

2450 made me chuckle.

Will switch to Pere if needed.

[T S O]

So, instead of posting a simple vote, you wrote three sentences on why you didn't have time to.

Riiiiight.

[T S O]

I'll vote Axle. Won't vote dave.

Neither are going to happen, though ....so whatever.

Either you're voting Pere or Anen - nothing else is really acceptable anymore.

[T S O]

Unvote
Vote: Pere

Nothing else has any traction and nothing else is ever going to happen.

[T S O]

bebombapaba

pv is dead

[T S O]

I love you, Thor.

but not in a gay way. just an incredibly strong bromance yo

[T S O]

hmmm

probs no tbh gm

[T S O]

Fuck, sorry hood. I only have sporadic access atm and no computer. I'll get down what you wanted.

Mildly scum reading Scripten for last night.

[T S O]

Axle can you please stop fucking posting because my access is shitty quality atm and your insistence to quote fucking every post on the page lengthens my scrolling severely.

[T S O]

It still hasn't really sunk in for me that Aneninen flipped town.

I have no idea where to go from here.

[T S O]

[T S O]

this is usually the bit where I direct you to scum I've caught but

[T S O]

'But as scum you don't catch scum, eh?' To finish that sentence?

Actually as scum I'd probably be more competent at catching scum than as town.

The actual completion of that sentence goes "...but I haven't caught any yet", - but we can roll with yours either.

[T S O]

'But as scum you don't catch scum, eh?' To finish that sentence?

Actually as scum I'd probably somehow be more competent at catching scum than as town.

And yes, TierShift, bravo - you got me good there.

[T S O]

garmr some of your posts here have really cheered me up

never change big man

[T S O]

looked at the first response, felt it was inelegant, changed it. didn't realise I'd posted the first one.

oh well

[T S O]

no, it's not. certainly not the way he did it.

slanderrrrrrrrr are you scum?

[T S O]

Actually, Axle, the hood asked me to do it, and I posted today that I was going to.

but, yeah, please -do- stop posting.

[T S O]

How conclusive -is- the slip?

[T S O]

garmr don't make me think you're scum

[T S O]

You now claim to have meta where you don't bus (as point of pride) but are better at catching scum as scum that town. Pinocchio how long is your nose?

Are you trying to fucking give me opportunities to make you look foolish?

That comment was incredibly obviously about scum-TSO in multiball, given he would have a Cop clear on at least 2 people as his scumbuddies. The comment also included the key word

probably

as I'm only guessing.

That literally has

nothing

to do with me ...bussing or not bussing. Not even in the ball park.

By all means feel free to reply to this - I've said I'm not responding but occasionally some of the shit you say needs to be put straight.

fucking thank you

[T S O]

I don't know if me "always acting" is a good thing or a bad thing.

Vote: Boonskiies

Your awful jump is, quite certainly, a bad thing.

[T S O]

Flubber, what did you think of Boon's vote on Thor?

[T S O]

I think TSO always acts. But ignoring that; I don't think the act he is using makes him scum.

The act is why, his reads were based as they were and your tell less relevant than it sometimes is.
The act was to slam at perceived weaker players, never state actually why they were scummy, (as opposed to bad (ergo weaker players)) and never look back.
Lots of bravado

hardball

No substance. (especially none that can be refuted as it fails to reference specific examples.)

Safe.

TSO does put on fake bravado as town. He also does the old 'I ain't posting no reasons lol!'.

It's bad, yes, but he does. I have literally chased him down for this exact thing in a previous game.

Which game was this again? I don't remember it. It wasn't Flavor Caper, and when I played as Catastrophe with you, we were derphammered p2.

[T S O]

gm is so town

[T S O]

It's disturbing how much I like Nero this game.

Thor, will answer tomorrow - literally falling to sleep.

[T S O]

I mean the suspicion comes from the idea that scum can have a nervous/awkward entrance to the game hence both my argument there and TSO's being very similar in nature. Is it more likely from scum? yes I think so, is there any scum motivation? no.

and Id have been happier if TSO said that.

muffin you're really not winning this argument whatsoever.

dave go ahead and fucking vote me instead of softing that you're up for it. it's really scummy and it bugs the shit out of me too. cool? cool.

[T S O]

I don't believe in replacing out of games due to apathy unless utterly unavoidable, but my god have I considered it here.

[T S O]

Replace out.

I'm really sorry, Aegor, but school + sport means I barely get Mafia time, and this game is just moving too fast for me to keep up with.

I'm very sorry, guys, this is the first time in a while I've done this.

go town

[T S O]

oh just shut up you sad cunt

[T S O]

fuck it, Aegor, I've been feeling bad about this ever since I did it, so I'll replace back in.

[T S O]

also to spite nero but mainly cause ily

[T S O]

Right.

VOTE: slandaar

Yadda yadda yadda I think thor's not scum.

yadda yadda I haven't followed your thought process from Thorscum --> Thortown and I'd like to see it.

[T S O]

prod dodge.

[T S O]

I would genuinely consider lynching me - I will selfvote. I cannot give this slot to someone else, but I can't make myself do it either.

I really am sorry.

[T S O]

How can you not give the slot to someone else? There is some reason you can't replace out?

because it's an awful slot in a lengthy game full of lengthy posts which some poor fuck will have to read.

[T S O]

You also were WK'ing me so hard earlier.

no he wasn't

[T S O]

I would be up for a Nero Cain lynch on policy basis alone.

Not sure about Boon though.

[T S O]

Nero, I think rope and your neck would work well together. What do you say?

[T S O]

I'm still young enough to not have the comment be relevant, sorry!

[T S O]

vote: nero cain

[T S O]

is anyone actually townreading nero after that jump on axle

like fucking really

[T S O]

that sounds like you were modkilled which really would not surprise me

[T S O]

I was all ready to post a Batman meme and hammer. Shit.

[T S O]

hello all

[T S O]

the Scripten death is p cool but now the neighbourhood's just me and Nero. almost sure Scripten was the only scum in it but militant neighbours are nearly as bad as werewolves, I guess.

[T S O]

I'm presuming we have a Vig because unless everyone here has a PR SK + multiball is bullshit. though I've played with it before and won convincingly.

[T S O]

I have no idea why Thor is voting Beast and don't plan to do anything of the sort soon.

[T S O]

wait when did you claim a JK?

[T S O]

I'm pretty sure I was shot night 1.

He claimed it a long time ago, T S O.

Anywho, I'm going to go ahead and...

VOTE: Nero

I'm not done with that. I'd also like to push Goodmorning. I am making the choice and decide to trust my iffy Shiro read being off for now.

Nero is in my 4-man neighbourhood, and Scripten was in it too. Do you think there are 2 scum among 4?