NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #47 (isolation #0) » Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:38 am

Post by Izariael »

/confirm

Sorry for the late in, been on moderate V/LA this week due to RL commitments. I'm back on track after today.
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Post Post #358 (isolation #1) » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:23 pm

Post by Izariael »

Alrighty folks,

Sorry I'm late to the party. Lemme go grab my mask and I'll join in the festivities shortly.

Tata for now, I shant be long! (reading)
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Post Post #367 (isolation #2) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:05 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 333, Muffin wrote:
In post 330, T S O wrote:Well, it's great that you want to vote me even more now. Maybe you're actually going to- wait, you're already voting me.

The whole point of my answer, though, is that I can actually back up my meta of voteparking - not with examples, but with actual quotes of me saying I votepark. It's a recurrent habit, but it -is- my playstyle.

Knowing your own meta makes that meta useless.
That is not a valid defence.

I support this post. Have a cookie, Muffin.

Quite disappointed to have missed out on RVS. It's my favourite part of D1 :cry:
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Post Post #368 (isolation #3) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:14 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 356, GrayFoxxxx wrote:I'm seeing TSO as town. I have been in some pissing matches (looking at you Thor), but TSO took it to another level. I know effort doesn't indicate alignment but TSOs effort and willingness to respond to everything indicates null town at the least.
The content of his effort doesn't
feel
scummy.
I think he should try not to tunnel so much because it gives scum some leverage when pushing a wagon.

Cho or tier could be scum but Chos posts are horrible. I think he jumped on an easy wagon and he has been ambiguous about it.
Sheeping isn't towny at all this early.
youre hiding behind someone else's actions with out even having a real read on the person you are sheeping.
Has a slight buddying feel to it as well.


This is after a quick read and a phone post. I would liketo touch on the Nero/Toby duel after I reread.
My strongest town read is good morning
. Not any easy reads either way.

-shitty phone post

I find myself agreeing with most of this post upon catching up on the thread. Even beyond this post, I'm willing to give the slot a town pass for now. Csareo seemed like he dove off the deep end but forgot his little floaters...

-------------------------------------------------

On my first read-through, goodmorning was top townread, but now that I've gone back I'm kind of second-guessing that read. Didn't care much for 239 in particular, her defense of T S O seems a bit excessive, and then it gets followed up by this:
In post 349, goodmorning wrote:So I've found myself defending TSO. That's pretty strong for me. This is where I figure out whether it's because of circumstance or is an actual townread.

In post 365, goodmorning wrote:I seem to have concluded that TSO is Town.

I'm putting her as town for now, but this did smell a little funky. Smells like goddamn "eau de oiseau" or something...

-------------------------------------------------

I'm hesitant to lean town on T S O. I'm not sure that his interaction with Csareo is alignment-indicative, but it seems genuine. Probably gonna hold back on a read for now until something piques my interest from him.

-------------------------------------------------

Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten
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Post Post #373 (isolation #4) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:59 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 371, Thor665 wrote:And I townread Scripten.


Could you elaborate a bit? What are you seeing that I'm not?
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Post Post #375 (isolation #5) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:10 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 374, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 370, Thor665 wrote:I don't think you get to naked vote at this stage of the game - reads and thoughts please.


It's not naked, it's more an acceptance that Izraeil probably knows better than I at this point, and last time I thought they were scum, ignored them, and we lost.

Of course, an actual read will give me a better idea. Is there a reason you think he is particularly town?


I'm not sure why you'd sheep me at all, honestly. I'm also a late-comer here, playing catch-up just as you are. :neutral:
Did something about Scripten's behavior make you put more weight on my read or something?

Also, in the game you linked, you were my top scumread and you were town... so there's that. I'm sure that's probably a reason why you were inclined to ignore my 5-Off scumread.
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Post Post #439 (isolation #6) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:05 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 376, Thor665 wrote:
In post 373, Izariael wrote:
In post 371, Thor665 wrote:And I townread Scripten.


Could you elaborate a bit? What are you seeing that I'm not?

Well, your presented case on him is pretty paper thin as stands, so it's not like you're even seeing anything.
My read on him is more one of gut and 'I agree with that' but I like how he singled out Tier as looking town and didn't mention GM - which is where I'm at and feels a logical town place to be rather than a scum looking to toss out some easy town reads.

I don't understand what is so logical about throwing out:
In post 301, Scripten wrote:Nobody is really pinging hard either way.
In post 362, Scripten wrote:TSO
seems
mildly town. Toby and Tiershift
feel
town. (Tier feels quite town, in fact.)
Nero Cain
looks
a little suspicious. Cho
feels
like scum to me.

There is no analysis. It's just using "buzz words" as you said :down: and trying to be a convincingly active player.
----------------------------------------------------
In post 376, Thor665 wrote:As far as I can tell your case on him is made up of buzz words and dings him for being non-committal more than anything.
On Page 16 of a large.
After you just got done being non-committal in some of the reads you were offering.
Meh.
Which reads were non-committal? My T S O read was a wholly-committed null at that point. Too much of his content was interaction with Csareo to provide a read I felt comfortable following. The other reads were clearly committed. Having a committed read doesn't mean you set it in stone, but it does require some sense of an explanation or analysis that can show WHY you have listed a player as leaning town or scum.

We had players who were 'non-posting' at that stage.
We had players who had been strongly committal and then reversed.
Sure, but I haven't posted my reads on every one of the other 20 players yet. Doesn't mean I don't have reads on such players though. I still found Scripten's "here are some minor reads - look I'm participating" to be the scummiest read I have.

We haven't had a decent wagon yet (showing how non-committal most of the players are, quite frankly).
We have no town leadership.
I say that with an awareness that I am known for early crusades, and I haven't felt my teeth bite in yet.
So, basically your case is, to my mind, 'he is a player in this game'
Mmkay.
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Post Post #440 (isolation #7) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:07 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 437, Cho wrote:I think I'm fairly town for outing the neighborhood. Scum wouldn't do that.

Sure they would. Being in a neighbourhood isn't alignment-indicative, so it's not really skin off their back to out it, especially if it gets them towncred. I view outing it as null, since I see motivations from both sides of the equation.
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Post Post #441 (isolation #8) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:08 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 440, Izariael wrote:
In post 437, Cho wrote:I think I'm fairly town for outing the neighborhood. Scum wouldn't do that.

Sure they would. Being in a neighbourhood isn't alignment-indicative, so it's not really skin off their back to out it, especially if it gets them towncred. I view outing it as null, since I see motivations from both sides of the equation.

Oh shitballs... gm beat me to it I think. I didn't see her post until after :mad:
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Post Post #445 (isolation #9) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:23 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 392, Scripten wrote:
In post 368, Izariael wrote:
Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten


This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.

It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?

Also, Cho was tied with TSO at
three
votes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.


I'm not expecting solid reads of OBVTOWN or OBVSCUM, but at least give a bit of insight about why you think such and such person is town or scum. Don't just fake active participation by throwing out reads a four year-old could vomit.

I didn't like your Cho vote because "Cho feels like scum" was weak... Cho's had enough posts to at least give a better reason than that. I'm sure that if you truly
feel
that she's scum that you could probe a little deeper and explain why her actions
feel
scummy. Gut feels don't just happen. Something they've done or said sets off red flags along the way to tweak the gut-strings. So find it and get back to me. Kthxbai.
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Post Post #457 (isolation #10) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:33 pm

Post by Izariael »

While I'm not overly-impressed by Pere so far, the last game I played with him I was sure he was scum and he turned out to be town. Everyone in the dead thread was baffled by it. I'm leaving him be for now to avoid a repeat.
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Post Post #458 (isolation #11) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:49 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 449, Thor665 wrote:
In post 439, Izariael wrote:I don't understand what is so logical about throwing out:
In post 301, Scripten wrote:Nobody is really pinging hard either way.
In post 362, Scripten wrote:TSO
seems
mildly town. Toby and Tiershift
feel
town. (Tier feels quite town, in fact.)
Nero Cain
looks
a little suspicious. Cho
feels
like scum to me.

There is no analysis. It's just using "buzz words" as you said :down: and trying to be a convincingly active player.

Nah, using emotions to get reads isn't a buzzword. Saying 'I feel' is no better or worse than saying 'I think' and it makes you *feel* more scummy to me for even trying to paint it that way.

I don't disagree with this. I'd have just as much of a problem if someone just said "I think Cho is scum" without expanding on it. I don't see why you think this is a thing.

In post 439, Izariael wrote:Which reads were non-committal? My T S O read was a wholly-committed null at that point.

Is this sarcastic irony?
I hope it's sarcastic irony.[/quote]
You can hope all you like, but I was srs. Nothing wrong with committing to a null.

In post 439, Izariael wrote:Sure, but I haven't posted my reads on every one of the other 20 players yet. Doesn't mean I don't have reads on such players though. I still found Scripten's "here are some minor reads - look I'm participating" to be the scummiest read I have.

Your reads are not very impressive to me then.
Want to sheep me on Pere? Maybe he's alternate scum team to you, yeah?

No, I don't want to sheep you period. Plus I'm not sold on scum!PeregrineV yet. I've seen him super-scummy as town before. I wouldn't be upset if he got vigged/lynched though.
Also, I don't really care if you're impressed by my reads or not. I'm still putting them out there for your scrutiny regardless.
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Post Post #460 (isolation #12) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:56 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 459, Thor665 wrote:
In post 458, Izariael wrote:You can hope all you like, but I was srs. Nothing wrong with committing to a null.

Except trying to take credit for it while bashing someone offering mild alignment leans as weak - then there IS a problem with committing to it.

I COMMIT TO THIS NULL READ...by the way, this other guy isn't getting behind his town adn scum reads other than to say he "feels" this way about them. That's the scummiest thing in this thread!

I would be okay lynching Izariael now.


I explained why I have a null read. Scripten didn't explain why he had town or scum reads. This is where I'm having the issue. Again, I don't see why you think this is a thing. I'm not asking Scripten to perform micro-surgery on an ant. I'm asking him to give a simple explanation of why he has the reads he does. It's really not a challenge.
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Post Post #467 (isolation #13) » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:36 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 462, Thor665 wrote:
In post 460, Izariael wrote:I'm not asking Scripten to perform micro-surgery on an ant. I'm asking him to give a simple explanation of why he has the reads he does.

No - you're calling him scummy for presenting his reads like that. That's my hangup with it.


I've given him opportunity to explain his reads... he still hasn't done so. So yeah. I find it scummy. Might I have removed my vote promptly upon seeing his reply, despite it not being alignment-indicative? Sure, but we won't know now because he hasn't done so.
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Post Post #472 (isolation #14) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:37 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 50, Boonskiies wrote:The claims on page 1 are most likely just fooling around. Why did cho claim mafia?

VOTE: Cho
In post 130, Boonskiies wrote:
unvote


My cho and Csareo votes were RVS.

@Cho - I'm totally kidding. Haha.
In post 464, Boonskiies wrote:Anyhoosies, I don't like that Cho keeps making the mafia claim joke, (he did it in neighborhood along with doing it on his first post). It looks like a thing mafia might do to seem like a joke, and make people go, "Oh lookie here, they are making a joke, HAHAHAHA, THAT'S FUNNY! He can't really be scum!" And that's scummy. Also, he is making up reasons for why would I as scum scenarios, like outing the neighborhood. Seems planned. YAWWWWW.


Vote: Cho

Soooo.... you vote Cho because of her mafia claim joke. Then you unvote and say it was RVS. Then go back to voting her for the same reason as before, conveniently right around the time that others are boarding the Cho wagon? Eeeeehhh? :igmeou:
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Post Post #473 (isolation #15) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:43 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 472, Izariael wrote:Soooo.... you vote Cho because of her mafia claim joke. Then you unvote and say it was RVS. Then go back to voting her for the same reason as before,
conveniently right around the time that others are boarding the Cho wagon
? Eeeeehhh? :igmeou:

EBWOP because I don't check these things before posting. Turns out my sense of the progression of time is a bit skewy. I'm gonna blame that one on the fever. Maybe not so curious about the timing any more, but still, using the same reason again after dismissing it as RVS?
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Post Post #474 (isolation #16) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:52 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 471, Aneninen wrote:@Izariael, – since when have "feel" and "seem" been buzzwords?

Since about the time when "scum" and "active lurking" became buzzwords.
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Post Post #595 (isolation #17) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:01 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 587, Scripten wrote:
In post 568, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 392, Scripten wrote:
In post 368, Izariael wrote:
Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten


This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.

It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?

Also, Cho was tied with TSO at
three
votes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.


@Scripten

Please explain how you think that would get "town cred" and is not actual scum hunting.
(I fail to see your point of view) (I fail to see how you can hold your point of view.) (It feels made up.) Show me your perspective.


My explanation is literally right there in the quote.
Everything about Izar's vote was based on pedantic "You use words that I'm going to construe as scummy because I said they are" logic and hyperbole.
1 The top two wagons were on my top scumread and a town read. I don't (didn't) have a strong enough read on any other player to warrant starting another wagon.

In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.


Uh huh... Because nobody makes votes just to gain good favor with the rest of the town, right?
Izar hadn't finished reading the thread, and when you sheeped them, they even seemed surprised/possibly nervous.
2 That said, you are looking WAY scummier than they are right now.

So ready to vote PereV. (Btw uhm... muffin, your nickname for him MIGHT not be apropro. :P ) His (intentional(?)) misinterpretations and the fact that he's ready to vote Thor for discussing multiball are huge red flags. Does nobody else follow why the latter is so scummy?


Few things:

1)
My vote wasn't based at all on your WORDING of your reads.
Both you and Thor seem to think that I gave a shit about how you worded it. I didn't. What irked me about your reads is that they were the most bare bones reads ever. There was NOTHING of interest there that offered a glimpse of what is making your gears turn. Anyone can say "oh, they feel like scum. I think they're town. They seem town." I don't care about that. I want to know WHY you think that. What about their behavior has driven you to those conclusions? I've already clarified this and offered you an opportunity to explain your reads, and you still haven't done so, which I continue to find scummy. ,

Would you care to elaborate now? Your answers won't be alignment-indicative, but they will at least establish a ground zero for your reads. Then I can catch you lying later like the scum you are. Thanks.

2) [begin segue]I was caught up on reading in the thread, but several of the posts I would have made if I'd been there at the time had become obsolete based on new information (e.g. Csareo replacement), so I wound up filtering or p-editing some of the things I was planning to say. My read on goodmorning is actually a good example of that . I had listed her as top townread for the first several pages, because I liked the thought process she was demonstrating, especially regarding Cho's neighbourhood reveal. But then as I caught up fully, I saw a few posts that raised some red flags. She still wound up being among top townreads, but perhaps a bit more even-keel. The wording in 368 kind of shows that it fell victim to p-edit, since I didn't really clarify why she was top townread initially.[end segue]

PeregrineV's sheep on my vote was unexpected and unusual, but it's kind of the only red flag I've seen from him. PeregrineV's play here seems consistent with what I've seen from Town!Peregrine, so I don't really have a scum read on his slot at this time. I think Peregrine has a tendency to appear pretty scummy as town, so my past experience with him has me trying to look past my initial misgivings of his play and look for alternative motivations that could come from town. I'm still undecided on how I feel about him, but it's definitely not a "he must be scum" feeling.

In post 565, Scripten wrote:
In post 559, Thor665 wrote:@Everyone - Pere claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now.


Heh. I like this. Not yet ready to sheep Thor, but this is a good post.


And this is a terrible post. :neutral: If I say "@Everyone - Scripten claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now." will you think this is a good post too?
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Post Post #607 (isolation #18) » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:02 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 606, Scripten wrote:
In post 595, Izariael wrote:
PeregrineV's sheep on my vote was unexpected and unusual, but it's kind of the only red flag I've seen from him. PeregrineV's play here seems consistent with what I've seen from Town!Peregrine, so I don't really have a scum read on his slot at this time. I think Peregrine has a tendency to appear pretty scummy as town, so my past experience with him has me trying to look past my initial misgivings of his play and look for alternative motivations that could come from town. I'm still undecided on how I feel about him, but it's definitely not a "he must be scum" feeling.


"He always looks scummy to me, so I'm forgiving scummy behavior." Is this not what you are saying here?


No it's not, but thanks for trying to tarnish my credibility. I don't think my statement needs clarification.
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Post Post #656 (isolation #19) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:21 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 610, Scripten wrote:(). Overemphasis on my word choice (pedantry), the laughable position of a "solid null read" as contrast to my vote, (fishing for favor) and mentioning how my vote was on "the top wagon" (hyperbole) just to make sure their case looks stronger. Need I say more?

Just because a case is wordy doesn't mean it is right.

Says the one using "pedantry", "fishing for favor" and "hyperbole" to discount me. :roll:

Once again, I never cared about your wording. Go back and re-read to see if you can actually figure out what my issue was with your posts. I made it quite clear.
And yes, my null read did contrast your read on Cho, because I gave explanation of WHY I had a null read, which you did not do for any of your reads. (**HINT: THIS IS WHAT MY PROBLEM WAS**)
And the fact that your vote was on top wagon is just that: a fact.
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Post Post #657 (isolation #20) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:30 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 633, davesaz wrote:
In post 632, Thor665 wrote:
This is written by someone who is not paying attention to the issue or can't figure it out.
The conversation has NEVER been about whether it is or is not multiball.
You should read it again.
Then offer an opinion on the scumtells being advanced.

This is you not understanding that I fully understand the issue and am firmly stating that there are no scumtells involved in this discussion.


I think I agree with this post. This is feeling very TvT for me from a lack of scumtells.
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Post Post #658 (isolation #21) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:32 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 612, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 606, Scripten wrote:It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.


What has Thor been saying? In your own words.


I'd also like this clarified, since it seemed directed at me but I don't actually understand what Thor comment it's referring to. Thor's address of Peregrine and I are two separate topics, so clumping them in together to say "[we're both] missing what Thor has been saying" seems like an attempt to buddy up with Thor.
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Post Post #661 (isolation #22) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:35 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 643, Thor665 wrote:Dave is a scum read now too.


And I disagree with this post. It seems Thor scumreads anyone who doesn't agree with his line of thinking. That's good to note so I can disregard his reads for the rest of the game.
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Post Post #664 (isolation #23) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:46 am

Post by Izariael »

At this point, the multiball discussion is clogging up the DP, and I'm not wanting to wade through the trenches to find scumtells that supposedly exist in it that I don't currently see.

Let it be noted that I appreciate any attempts here to turn the conversation elsewhere.
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Post Post #665 (isolation #24) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:08 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 660, PeregrineV wrote:You saw the reactions to the Scripten vote. What do you think of them (the reactions)?


Which Scripten vote? Yours or mine? I think there were different reactions to each.

Scripten's reaction to both votes hasn't done anything so far to alleviate a scumread on him, and has probably made it stronger since I'm currently feeling no inclination to move my vote. His reaction is not one that I'd anticipate from town who just got voted.
Thor's reaction to your vote wasn't unwarranted, which I would be tempted to townread, but his recent multiball exchange with you is making it hard to establish a townread or scumread on him. I didn't care much for his reaction to my vote though. Not only did he miss the reason for my vote, but then he spits on my ability to form reads. It's either gross town or gross scum. Either way, it's icky play.

I have to jolt over to work, but there were a couple of other players that I'd townread for their reactions, I just need time to find the posts in question. I'll get to this later.
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Post Post #701 (isolation #25) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:34 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 692, Goofyd00d wrote:I was trying to point out that a 5 neighborhood is suspicious
in a time of the game where people were trying to deny that the neighborhood even had one mafia any
. I wasn't implying this game had to be multiball

(I'm catching up and still at post 601, sorry if this is no longer relevant.)

Correct me if there was a different post you were referencing, but the closest I see to this is goodmorning's post:
In post 61, goodmorning wrote:I was ignoring the Neighbourhood claim because it's not particularly beneficial to out it atm.

Yes, I'm in a Neighbourhood with 3 others and Cho. No, I don't think we can say there's absolutely Scum in the Neighbourhood, though it is likely.

Neighbour claim is indeed completely irrelevant to what's been posted thus far.

in which
she doesn't deny the possibility of mafia in a neighbourhood
but does not want to scumhunt on the assumption that there is, which I find to be a far townier perspective that what you are saying she said. It's borderline misrep.
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Post Post #702 (isolation #26) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:02 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 699, Nero Cain wrote:What do you think of scum being in the hoods?

Do you think that if there's more than two hoods they should claim so town atleast knows the number of hoods?


At this point, it's become clear that there are multiple neighborhoods. If the wording of the opening neighborhood post is the same for everyone in such a hood, then I think we may have 4 neighborhoods in total (possibly with 1/4 players each?), each neighborhood being a different "corner" of the room. Is there anyone who isn't part of a neighborhood that could shed some light on this? (Yes I am in one myself)

Regardless, I think it might behoove us to go ahead and lay out the neighborhoods on the table since their existence is already known. Does anyone object to doing this?
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Post Post #703 (isolation #27) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:13 pm

Post by Izariael »

:up: That post was me saying "yes" to Nero's question and then basically rephrasing his suggestion because I think the neighborhoods should claim regardless of how many there are, be it one, two, three or more.
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Post Post #704 (isolation #28) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:57 am

Post by Izariael »

Hmm, looks like Muffin also suggested it in . I don't think I saw this previously :o This post gets a thumbs up from me.
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Post Post #705 (isolation #29) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:59 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 547, PeregrineV wrote:
Izariael
- Check out
her
posting in the linked Newbie game.


Completely off-topic, but I shed a tear of joy when you finally spelled my name correctly and a tear of sadness when you got my pronoun incorrect. It's a whirlwind roller coaster of emotions right now. :giggle: :D :( :facepalm: :oops: :igmeou: :cool:
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Post Post #707 (isolation #30) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:54 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 665, Izariael wrote:
In post 660, PeregrineV wrote:You saw the reactions to the Scripten vote. What do you think of them (the reactions)?

I have to jolt over to work, but there were a couple of other players that I'd townread for their reactions, I just need time to find the posts in question. I'll get to this later.

So I did initially like AxleGreaser's as it brought up a question that I had not thought of or addressed in my response to the post (). However during some re-reading tonight I noticed that it did bear a resemblance to your [PeregrineV's] comment from earlier:
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.
Whether it is coincidence that he chose to address a similar concern or if it was hiding a scummy vote is something I have yet to decide. For now I'm giving it a townread.

I did like Egg's reaction to the votes, as well as the post in general. () His Aneninen segment struck me as a bit odd in tone/motive, but overall it felt like a town thought process.

I thought I had another reaction I specifically wanted to comment on, but I can't find a post that is reminding me of who it was... so I'll just leave it at these two additions for now. Maybe my memory will get jogged later :facepalm:
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Post Post #710 (isolation #31) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:18 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 666, Scripten wrote:
In post 658, Izariael wrote:
In post 612, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 606, Scripten wrote:It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.


What has Thor been saying? In your own words.


I'd also like this clarified, since it seemed directed at me but I don't actually understand what Thor comment it's referring to. Thor's address of Peregrine and I are two separate topics, so clumping them in together to say "[we're both] missing what Thor has been saying" seems like an attempt to buddy up with Thor.
My point was that the discussion was centering on an argument over whether or not this game was multiball on one side, while the other side was examining the motivations behind the discussion. PeregrineV was accusing Thor of being scum for bringing up multiball, but Thor was not claiming that PeregrineV was scummy because he disagreed. There was this cognitive dissonance between what Thor was saying and what everyone else involved seemed to be hearing. He's since explained this better than I can. (After all, I'm not in his head.)

I'm still not quite sure why your statement in 606 was directed at me then... I don't recall being involved in their multiball discussion, but have been observing that discussion from the sidelines. How did I fit in with all of this?

In post 606, Scripten wrote:
In post 595, Izariael wrote:
In post 565, Scripten wrote:
In post 559, Thor665 wrote:@Everyone - Pere claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now.


Heh. I like this. Not yet ready to sheep Thor, but this is a good post.

And this is a terrible post. :neutral: If I say "@Everyone - Scripten claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now." will you think this is a good post too?


If
you actually had anything and
I didn't have a sexy green role PM
, maybe.

Given that this is completely non-confirmable outside of your dying role-flip, how do you expect anyone to hold this as a townread for you?

@PeregrineV:
I'm actually very curious to know your stance on this. :up: Do you think his bolded statement is something that should reassure us of his towniness?
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Post Post #712 (isolation #32) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:33 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 708, Muffin wrote:
In post 702, Izariael wrote:Does anyone object to doing this?

Given they've already been exposed, I definitely agree that the pro town move is to lat out who is in which neighborhood.


Muffin you silly beaannnn, you already suggested this. ... let the other kids come up to the counter.
At this point in time I don't think it's alignment-indicative any more
so I don't know why I bothered to ask really. There's really no town motivation to hide the neighborhoods any more, and scum would be silly to try to stop it from happening. Revealing them is more just a formality than anything now.

The way I see it, scum will be talking amongst themselves on night 1 (if they didn't already do so on night 0) and revealing to one another who is in their neighborhoods, if applicable. Town may as well be on the same page now by opening up before we've lost any numbers. The more people we lose the easier it would become for scum to fabricate details.

My neighborhood consists of Aneninen, Boonskiies, Cho, goodmorning and me.
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Post Post #717 (isolation #33) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:46 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 714, Scripten wrote:My neighborhood is davesaz, Nero Cain, and TSO. I believe this may have already come out, but I'd like it in my ISO for people to see.


Given that it is no longer alignment-indicative to be revealing ho is in your neighborhood, why is it important to you that this is in your ISO?
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Post Post #719 (isolation #34) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:47 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 717, Izariael wrote:
In post 714, Scripten wrote:My neighborhood is davesaz, Nero Cain, and TSO. I believe this may have already come out, but I'd like it in my ISO for people to see.


Given that it is
was never
alignment-indicative to be revealing
who
is in your neighborhood, why is it important to you that this is in your ISO?

EBWOP.
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Post Post #721 (isolation #35) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:49 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 713, TierShift wrote:
Spoiler: I don't like this post
In post 368, Izariael wrote:
In post 356, GrayFoxxxx wrote:I'm seeing TSO as town. I have been in some pissing matches (looking at you Thor), but TSO took it to another level. I know effort doesn't indicate alignment but TSOs effort and willingness to respond to everything indicates null town at the least.
The content of his effort doesn't
feel
scummy.
I think he should try not to tunnel so much because it gives scum some leverage when pushing a wagon.

Cho or tier could be scum but Chos posts are horrible. I think he jumped on an easy wagon and he has been ambiguous about it.
Sheeping isn't towny at all this early.
youre hiding behind someone else's actions with out even having a real read on the person you are sheeping.
Has a slight buddying feel to it as well.


This is after a quick read and a phone post. I would liketo touch on the Nero/Toby duel after I reread.
My strongest town read is good morning
. Not any easy reads either way.

-shitty phone post

I find myself agreeing with most of this post upon catching up on the thread. Even beyond this post, I'm willing to give the slot a town pass for now. Csareo seemed like he dove off the deep end but forgot his little floaters...

-------------------------------------------------

On my first read-through, goodmorning was top townread, but now that I've gone back I'm kind of second-guessing that read. Didn't care much for 239 in particular, her defense of T S O seems a bit excessive, and then it gets followed up by this:
In post 349, goodmorning wrote:So I've found myself defending TSO. That's pretty strong for me. This is where I figure out whether it's because of circumstance or is an actual townread.

In post 365, goodmorning wrote:I seem to have concluded that TSO is Town.

I'm putting her as town for now, but this did smell a little funky. Smells like goddamn "eau de oiseau" or something...

-------------------------------------------------

I'm hesitant to lean town on T S O. I'm not sure that his interaction with Csareo is alignment-indicative, but it seems genuine. Probably gonna hold back on a read for now until something piques my interest from him.

-------------------------------------------------

Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten


Would you care to be specific about what you don't like? This is an incredibly vague criticism that leaves a lot to the imagination.
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Post Post #723 (isolation #36) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:52 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 720, Scripten wrote:
In post 717, Izariael wrote:
In post 714, Scripten wrote:My neighborhood is davesaz, Nero Cain, and TSO. I believe this may have already come out, but I'd like it in my ISO for people to see.


Given that it is no longer alignment-indicative to be revealing ho is in your neighborhood, why is it important to you that this is in your ISO?


Because an easily-compiled list of neighborhood composition is pro-town.

But the time for being up-front and pro-active about neighborhood composition is long past. Throwing it out there now is a formality more than anything, since everyone is aware that multiple neighborhoods are in play. It might be pro-town, but I would expect scum to follow suit as well because it would be blatantly scummy not to.
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Post Post #818 (isolation #37) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:18 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 747, Scripten wrote:
In post 723, Izariael wrote:
But the time for being up-front and pro-active about neighborhood composition is long past. Throwing it out there now is a formality more than anything, since everyone is aware that multiple neighborhoods are in play. It might be pro-town, but I would expect scum to follow suit as well because it would be blatantly scummy not to.


Yeah. It's a null tell that is, IMO, pro-town. Knowing who can talk to one another overnight is useful information. I'm not actually sure what part of this you are questioning?
In post 714, Scripten wrote:My neighborhood is davesaz, Nero Cain, and TSO. I believe this may have already come out,
but I'd like it in my ISO for people to see.

I fail to understand why you chose to include the bolded statement. It sounds like you want to intentionally include something that *could* be seen as pro-town just for the sake of appearances. I don't see why a town player would be so concerned about making sure
this detail
is on their ISO. As long as they can confirm that no information about the hood is being lied about, then what is it to a town player whether they or another player opened up about it?

In post 805, Scripten wrote:(The alt-hater thing is not really alignment indicative, but I do have a thing against policy lynches.)

Seems somewhat contradictory to what you said here
In post 39, Scripten wrote:Policy lynchers should be policy lynched.

Thor vote is serious.

In which you are saying you would policy lynch someone on the basis that they support policy lynches. This is like pushing for capital punishment on people who support capital punishment. Does someone else come along and policy lynch you for policy lynching someone who supports policy lynches? Where does this chain end? You're perpetuating the very thing you're trying to stop... and then now say you're against it?
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Post Post #819 (isolation #38) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:21 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 818, Izariael wrote:
In post 747, Scripten wrote:
In post 723, Izariael wrote:I don't see why a town player would be so concerned about making sure
this detail
is on their ISO.

I don't actually see why a town player would specifically go out of their way to tailor their ISO to be "townier" in appearance, regardless of the details in question. It just seems like a counter-productive thing to be doing when you could be instead spending time actually, you know... looking for scum. It's like trying to coif your hair in the middle of a house fire. Like... get your priorities straight here. Survival > Appearances.
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Post Post #820 (isolation #39) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:22 pm

Post by Izariael »

Wow I messed up that self-quote. The point should still get across I hope... :facepalm:
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Post Post #821 (isolation #40) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:47 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 743, TierShift wrote:You seem to be addressing me as though I've been shitting on you, which I haven't. What's up with the attitude?

In post 746, TierShift wrote:
In post 744, Thor665 wrote:Hint: I am scumhunting you.

That is not an excuse for your tone.

He seems to speak this way to anyone not agreeing with him. It irks me as a player, but I haven't played with Thor prior to this nor have I checked his previous games to know if this sneery, condescending tone of his is par for the course or if it could be alignment-indicative. I can't work past my personal bias to get any sort of read on him.

I do like both of these posts (and I think there was another from you [TierShift] touching on this but couldn't find it skimming your ISO) for addressing something that I've been meaning to address to Thor:

@Thor
: Drawing different conclusions or applying a different brand of logic than you doesn't make me terrible town. Nor does it make me scum. It simply means that I have evaluated something differently than you have. You think I'm terrible town for having "faulty logic", while I think you're terrible town for your dogmatic attitude. The vast majority of your posts have this stick-up-your-ass tone that is quickly getting old. I would love to give you an unbiased read that isn't influenced by my incredible distaste for your attitude, because right now all I'm thinking is "I just want Thor out of the game, regardless of his alignment." For that to happen, I would need you to step back a bit, get off your high horse, and cut this "I art superior to thou" crap that you're doing. Maybe you're right about EVERYTHING in this game, and I am WRONG about everything in this game. Perhaps it's the other way around. It still does not give you the right to be a complete ass to myself or other players in the way I see you doing. I'll leave that ball in your court. Do as you please.
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Post Post #822 (isolation #41) » Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:37 pm

Post by Izariael »

Actually, I'm still thinking about this ().... It does remind me of a similar scenario from my first forum mafia game, so I
can
see how a town player would think that this is a townie thing, however I have since adopted a different stance on this that I think is more fitting of the forum venue. I'm seeing both sides of this coin, so I don't really have a read on it.

For reference, here is the post that this is reminding me of: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6094589
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Post Post #826 (isolation #42) » Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:05 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 825, goodmorning wrote:Note to self:
It is not polite to ask Thor to fuck off, even if you say please.


Is this actually a note to yourself, or a passive-aggressive jab at ?
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Post Post #830 (isolation #43) » Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:14 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 829, Scripten wrote:
In post 818, Izariael wrote:
In post 714, Scripten wrote:My neighborhood is davesaz, Nero Cain, and TSO. I believe this may have already come out,
but I'd like it in my ISO for people to see.

I fail to understand why you chose to include the bolded statement. It sounds like you want to intentionally include something that *could* be seen as pro-town just for the sake of appearances. I don't see why a town player would be so concerned about making sure
this detail
is on their ISO. As long as they can confirm that no information about the hood is being lied about, then what is it to a town player whether they or another player opened up about it?


Confirmation bias much? I said right in that post that I thought that the information was already out there. I wanted it in my iso so that when another player looks at my iso, the information is right there within my posts. You're tunneling into a molehill and making it out to be a mountain.

In post 818, Izariael wrote:
In post 805, Scripten wrote:(The alt-hater thing is not really alignment indicative, but I do have a thing against policy lynches.)

Seems somewhat contradictory to what you said here
In post 39, Scripten wrote:Policy lynchers should be policy lynched.

Thor vote is serious.

In which you are saying you would policy lynch someone on the basis that they support policy lynches. This is like pushing for capital punishment on people who support capital punishment. Does someone else come along and policy lynch you for policy lynching someone who supports policy lynches? Where does this chain end? You're perpetuating the very thing you're trying to stop... and then now say you're against it?


You do realize that my 39 was contradictory within its own context, right?

Because it's a joke. If you read the next two posts after that, you might understand it a little better.

In post 819, Izariael wrote:
I don't actually see why a town player would specifically go out of their way to tailor their ISO to be "townier" in appearance, regardless of the details in question. It just seems like a counter-productive thing to be doing when you could be instead spending time actually, you know... looking for scum. It's like trying to coif your hair in the middle of a house fire. Like... get your priorities straight here. Survival > Appearances.


Because two sentences outweighs the rest of my posting? Okay.


Did you wind up reading before posting this? I think if you had waited another few sentences to comment you would see that I've changed my mind on this.

And your post 39 said "Thor vote is serious" so I didn't really read it as a joke. I was aware that it was contradictory in and of itself, but I had taken it as a serious stance. If it was intended as a joke, then great. Haha.
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Post Post #833 (isolation #44) » Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:00 am

Post by Izariael »

Well, just because I misread it as a serious post doesn't mean that everyone did. I could just be that one person who sits there with a blank look on their face when a joke cracks the rest of the room up yet flew over their head.
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Post Post #1463 (isolation #45) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:08 pm

Post by Izariael »

Alright all, I'm catching up tonight. Mad internet issues that prevented me from posting :T They've been fixed, so I will be catching up on reading tonight and posting when possible tonight/tomorrow. I'm currently back at page... 40-ish?
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Post Post #1569 (isolation #46) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:34 am

Post by Izariael »

Same here, I'm still catching up from my absence earlier. I suspect I will be chronically behind until Saturday due to the activity of a large...

For what it's worth, as of page 50 I still think the PeregrineV wagon is lame and should be looking for a new target to pressure. Peregrine's behavior is identical to his town play from my previous game with him, to the point where I can pretty much predict what he's gonna say before I even read his posts. Pretty strong town vibes there, so unless something changes in the remaining 13 pages he's a will-not-vote from me.

UNVOTE: Scripten

Will update my vote this weekend once fully caught up and able to contribute on a fuller scale.
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Post Post #1838 (isolation #47) » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:32 pm

Post by Izariael »

Hey all,

weekend time which means I can finally catch up fully :) I'll be reading through tonight and hope to be fully caught up before I go to bed for the night and have some posts made.

Off to read! *vazooms away*
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Post Post #1875 (isolation #48) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:57 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 1488, Garmr wrote:We need mac in this game then we can have egg mac muffin :p


This post was magical and woke me up a bit, as I was starting to drift off in my office chair. I'm back to sleepy eyes though. My momma says it's past my bedtime so I'm being sent to bed :mad:

Currently on page 66 of reading; got like 900 bajillion open tabs of posts that interest me.

Garmr seems mildly town. Tiershift and Flubber feel town.

Peregrine vs. Thor is causing my brain to implode on itself from boredom. Both are guilty of creating equal parts intensity and apathy in this game, which is equal parts intriguing and frustrating. However, having played with town-Peregrine very recently, his posting style and the arguments he's been making fall in line with what I am expecting from town-Peregrine. Unless someone is wanting/able to show that he plays his town and scum games identically, then his behavior here has me reading him as town...

I think I need to ISO Thor once I'm caught up fully, because reading his posts right now is like listening to the teacher from Peanuts. The only thing I've managed to retain from his spiels is that he's townreading all of the people on the Pere wagon... and some comment about how the people he's townreading haven't been wagoned. Or something. Yeah, I'll probably find something later to jog my memory. It's on one of these tabs I'm sure. Bottom line is: I think he's a much better lynch than Peregrine, whom I have deemed to be a mislynch.

Aneninen looks a little suspicious. Fonz feels like scum to me.

VOTE: Thor665

@Thor: Which of your reads in are strong reads? Are all of them committed?
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Post Post #1906 (isolation #49) » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:37 pm

Post by Izariael »

@MOD: There are two separate Thor tallies on that VC :up:

Fixed.
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Post Post #2120 (isolation #50) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:26 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 1960, Garmr wrote:
In post 1955, T S O wrote:Fucking fine.

Vote: PeregrineV


If that'll get you off my fucking back, great.


How to shatter a town read by tso.


Amen.

Currently experiencing my third power outage of the day, so I'm on my phone. Using this time to catch up on reading, but posting is a lot more tedious and will have to wait.
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Post Post #2608 (isolation #51) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:23 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2572, Boonskiies wrote:Aneninen also mentioned some kind of plan to build a wagon on Iz, and he died. Someone in my neighborhood is scum.

We don't know for certain that both events are related. There were
two deaths
last night. Assuming event A (Aneninen's neighbourhood discussion) is tied to event B (his death) is a dangerous way to analyze it. There are alternate possibilities, and his death may have nothing to do with our hood's activity last night. Putting all eggs into one basket without first looking at the others is not making a safe assumption, IMHO.

Also, the fact that you didn't even read his plan enough to be able to describe it for everyone kind of shows the attentiveness you had in the hood last night. Just sayin'. Didn't really feel like you were all there. It's okay though, you can go back to read it now while I get to paraphrasing the events that transpired in our hood last night. In particular, I think you might want to look at step 2 in his plan, since you missed your opportunity to follow through on it. Shiro as well. "Terrible" things may result from that.
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Post Post #2609 (isolation #52) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:26 pm

Post by Izariael »

Also, I would like to throw out that I think the two deaths from last night offers confirmation that we are either dealing with SK or multiball. I'm aware of the possibility of vigilante, but do not think last night was the result of one. I would encourage us to proceed with this, though feel free to think otherwise.
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Post Post #2611 (isolation #53) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:29 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2608, Izariael wrote:In particular, I think you might want to look at step 2 in his plan, since you missed your opportunity to follow through on it.


Correction: you did follow through, but it came a bit late. I guess you are still on board though.
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Post Post #2614 (isolation #54) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:51 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2612, Nero Cain wrote:So Iz, did you ever follow up on your catchup where you said you found a bunch of posts interesting?

No, I didn't, but I'm not apologizing for it. I intend to keep my RL matters out of this discussion. That said, there is still time for me to do so. I have lost many of those post numbers that I had set aside, but as I re-read and ISO players during day 2 I am certain that many of those posts will jump out to me again. I think a lot of those things that I found interesting on Day 1 will be part of my day 2 reads, and other stuff may be obsolete or altered by the night 1 events and day 2 on-goings.

My end of day 1 was far less involved than I would have liked, though I don't know that a greater participation on my part could have prevented Pere's mislynch, unfortunately. I mean, I was townreading him within his first 5 posts, but I don't think I could have been convincing enough about
why
I was townreading him to get his wagon disbanded, because it was almost entirely meta from my last game with him.
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Post Post #2624 (isolation #55) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:49 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2616, Boonskiies wrote:@Garmr -
Anen town read me by saying if anyone in our neighborhood is scum, it's most likely Iz.


Myself/Shiro/Iz/Goodmorning/Aneninen is my neighborhood.


I think you've left out a lot of context from the post you are referencing and the discussion that followed, and should NOT be using this as an answer to Garmr's question.
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Post Post #2627 (isolation #56) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:11 pm

Post by Izariael »

Boonskiies wrote:During the night Iz brought up how there is 'probably' a fourth neighborhood. He also said he is new to neighborhoods and doesn't know the ideal play in these situations. Those two don't match up. Why would you think there is probably a fourth neighborhood if you are new to them unless one of your scum partners are in it, and they told you during the night?


Okay... wow. I'm gonna leave it to goodmorning and Shino to say whether this is misrep, because I feel that it's pretty blatant misrep. I gave the
exact reason
(I LINKED THE POST FOR YOU) of why I thought this. If you didn't read it, then fine, but don't put words in my mouth. I never even used the word 'probably' in that entire post, nor did I hint at it. In fact, I specifically said we have
no confirmation of a fourth neighborhood
and should move forward assuming 3 until proven otherwise.

Go reread the post, please and thank you.
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Post Post #2630 (isolation #57) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:35 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2618, goodmorning wrote:
I personally think that plan was a bit of a
terrible
idea, but I would like to hear from you on the subject of the thing I brought up, if you don't mind.


I'm glad you brought it up, as I was planning to do so anyway. I never got a chance to touch on it before the thread lock because of Halloween stuff. That means that everyone here who isn't in our hood gets a really vague post (which you can hopefully follow soundly):

I will admit, your final post of the night left me a bit confused, as I didn't understand what was tipping you off in such a manner. Anen's post that followed it was able to shed light on it for me though, and I will say I have to agree. It looks that way because I was not properly applying my own stance to the
full
scenario. I've been basing most of my thoughts around NOT assuming it's guaranteed. But then suddenly my comment looked as though I said WAS guaranteed. It was a disconnect of logic that unfortunately pervades pretty much everything I said about the topic last night
and
on Day 1. To clarify, my stance is the former - NOT guaranteed. That is how I will be operating and you, Boonskiies and Shiro can hold me to that.

Having seen where you're coming from, and now understanding where my reasoning went awry, I'm now following why you took the stance you've taken since the start of Day 1. Your stance has been consistent at the very least, and I'm definitely townreading it now that I'm understanding it a bit better. On day 1 I had thought you were being a bit dodgy about it unnecessarily, but now I think you were right to do so.

You're welcome to follow through with the
terrible
plan, and heck, I would probably endorse it after seeing the angle you are approaching it from.

Also, I appreciate your vagueness on the matter, especially given how Boonskiies is launching out of the Day 2 gate...
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Post Post #2633 (isolation #58) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:57 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2629, Flubbernugget wrote:What about them?

@iz how 'bout them reads?


Many of my reads from still currently stand until I voice that I've modified them. I haven't fully evaluated how the flips have changed things for me. I'm still going just from what I've seen of day one at this point until I do so.

The read on T S O that I posted back in was null because of ongoing games, but since NY176 has ended with T S O as town I would say that I'm townreading T S O. I did admittedly gloss over several of his posts though, so I might be missing something indicative. I think his interaction with Csareo and later with Axle is in line with what I was seeing of his interaction with reinoe in NY176. I am interested in seeing where he chooses to go today with his top scumread dead (and flipped town)

Greyfoxxx has all but disappeared, though I did like him for town what little we saw from him, and didn't have a scumread on Csareo when he was in slot either. I am keen to see a new face in the slot though.
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Post Post #2635 (isolation #59) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:01 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2631, Flubbernugget wrote:Yeaah I can see Iz as scum.


For having a vague reply to a vague question? I think goodmorning and I are on the same page of wanting to keep the details of our discussion within the neighborhood.

If there's more to it than that I'm all ears.
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Post Post #2637 (isolation #60) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:15 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2636, beastcharizard wrote:Who is sheepable?


No one. Read the game and try to form a read. Thanks.
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Post Post #2639 (isolation #61) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:34 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2634, Boonskiies wrote:Axle's voting me even though I've made it pretty obvious that I'm a PR. Interesting. I'll hop on a wagon that starts on Axle if no one sees Iz as scum.


Yeah, you've made it pretty obvious;
too
obvious IMO. But
claiming
to have a role doesn't mean you
have
a role. I don't think it's indicative of Axle's alignment to vote against you and you should be careful of joining a wagon on Axle if this is your sole reason for doing so.

Personally, I have my doubts that you are what you say you are, but for today I'm fine with not pushing for proof.
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Post Post #2640 (isolation #62) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:40 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2638, Boonskiies wrote:beast, Iz is sheepable. Also, so is Axle.


Haaah! :lol:

This guy; what a jokester!
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Post Post #2648 (isolation #63) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:10 pm

Post by Izariael »

Flubbernugget wrote:Iz how come you don't have a read on boons?
I don't recall saying I don't have a read on him; I simply haven't posted one. I haven't done so because I don't know what to make of his claim yet.

I don't think Boonskiies is playing in a way that is beneficial for town, regardless of what role he may have or may be claiming. That leads me to think a fake claim is highly possible.

I think his claim is working against town here because:
1) He's suggesting that he's unlynchable because he's claimed a PR - I disagree. Claiming to have a PR does not mean you HAVE a PR, as I've said previously.
2) despite the fact that Axle has already made it clear that he doesn't believe the claim. This seems to be a mentality that stems from #1.
3) The majority of his scumhunting here and in neighborhood thread has to do with garnering reactions to his claim. While it's certainly valid to do so, I think limiting himself to that alone is not effective (see #2) I think a town player would be looking at multiple facets of the game, and his fixation on this one topic makes me think he could be fakeclaiming as scum and is trying to look like he's scumhunting effectively/actively.

If Boonskiies DOES have the role I think he's claiming, then proof of it should come soon enough. If it doesn't, then I will happily advocate for his lynch at a later date. Today is not the day for that though.

TL;DR: I'm scumreading him, but the cost of lynching PR-Boonskiies today does not outweigh the benefit of lynching scum-Boonskiies today, in my opinion.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

..... there's also that part where he, you know, hammered PeregrineV. :neutral:

Here, let me recap for you: :right: :right:
Sorry guys. I know it's pretty scummy, but he's claimed a PR so we can't vote for him. That would be scummy. (see #2 above) :roll:
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Post Post #2649 (isolation #64) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:12 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2648, Izariael wrote:
TL;DR: I'm scumreading him, but the cost of lynching PR-Boonskiies today
outweighs
the benefit of lynching scum-Boonskiies today, in my opinion.


EBWOP. I ended up saying the opposite of what I meant. I won't be lynching Boonskiies today.
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Post Post #2657 (isolation #65) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:32 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2655, TierShift wrote:I'm yet to form an opinion on boon's push on iz and his reaction to it. It all reads a bit vague to me. Is there any reason the plan boon was talking about cannot be fully disclosed?

I'll let it stew for a little bit, but I won't mind opening up about it. goodmorning or Shiro would be even better bets IMO if you want their takes on it. Boon seems to want to take everything said in neighborhood chat and either bring it out of context or contort it drastically.
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Post Post #2659 (isolation #66) » Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:28 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2655, TierShift wrote:I'm yet to form an opinion on boon's push on iz and his reaction to it. It all reads a bit vague to me.


@TierShift:
Here's *my* take of Boon's case against me, take it as you will:

1)

2)

So apparently, I killed Aneninen because he was planning to form a wagon against me and because I would get towncred for not killing Boonskiies.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, here's why I think Boon's case is BS:

1) How would I get towncred for not killing Boonskiies, when the discussion we had about his role was only visible to the 5 of us in the hood? None of the other 15 players would have batted an eye at it, nor would they have townread me for it.
At the very most
, there would be
4 people
townreading me for it,
Boonskiies included
.

2) If the only players who would possibly townread me for not killing Boonskiies are the ones in my neighborhood, why would I kill one of them? That's one less person left to townread me for not killing Boonskiies, which based on the hard number crunching above would put me at...
3 max players townreading me, Boonskiies included
.

3) I didn't have anything to fear from Aneninen's plan. It was rushed in before thread lock and I don't think he really thought out all of the variables involved. I sincerely doubt it would have ended with my mislynch.

4)
Even if there was only one death, his assumption here isn't a safe one to make. Two deaths makes it an even more narrow-sighted assumption.
If he's PR-town, then he's applying a logical fallacy to paint me as scum.
If he's scum, then there are any number of possibilities for why he would be pushing this; more if it's multiball.
If he's SK, then I'm not sure what he's hoping to achieve here, and yet this one makes the most sense to me when I look at his play overall.

5) and yet had the gall to push point #4.
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Post Post #2724 (isolation #67) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:41 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 2723, Boonskiies wrote:But what happens when Iz flips scum, Shiro?


Let's flip that Boon: What happens when I don't?
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Post Post #2727 (isolation #68) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:53 am

Post by Izariael »

Wait, so now I'm guilting for killing Egg? WHICH IS IT BOONSKIIES. DID I KILL ANENINEN OR DID I KILL EGG, OR DID I KILL ANYONE BESIDES YOU BECAUSE I WAS VYING FOR TOWNCRED.

Get your story together Boon.
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Post Post #2728 (isolation #69) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:55 am

Post by Izariael »

Like seriously...

The straw-grasping is REAL. :roll:
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Post Post #2729 (isolation #70) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:04 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2717, Boonskiies wrote:Hmm, I missed that post.

I'm not basing it off of Anen's reads alone.
I was trying to test Iz during the night as well.
And it's a mixture of everything that has happened during the night.

Lies. You had
four posts
during the night, and
none of them were directed at me.


What
ACTUALLY
happened was this:
In post 2563, Boonskiies wrote:I claimed that I have a protective role in the thread, and also asked who people thought would be worth protecting.

To which I gave my answer: no one. You shouldn't be asking
us
to make
your
decisions for you.

However, if this was your form of "testing" me, then I've already called you out on it:
In post 2648, Izariael wrote:3) The majority of his scumhunting here and in neighborhood thread has to do with garnering reactions to his claim. While it's certainly valid to do so, I think limiting himself to that alone is not effective (see #2) I think a town player would be looking at multiple facets of the game, and his fixation on this one topic makes me think he could be fakeclaiming as scum and is trying to look like he's scumhunting effectively/actively.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In post 2717, Boonskiies wrote:He said he was new to neighborhoods, yet he also gave a detailed explanation on neighborhood strategy and balance.


I offered my thoughts on the neighborhood set-up, and . Yes, I'm new to neighborhoods, so *GASP* I've been THINKING ABOUT THEM? What a shock!? :idea: :idea: :idea:
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Post Post #2732 (isolation #71) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:24 pm

Post by Izariael »

Boon, the one who speculated that a fourth neighborhood would exist with 2 players was ANENINEN. GO READ THE DAMN NEIGHBORHOOD THREAD.
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Post Post #2735 (isolation #72) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:34 pm

Post by Izariael »

Boon, Aneninen was also the one who mentioned 1/2/3/4/5/6 player neighborhoods (totaling 21 players.) Are you wanting to accuse me of that as well Boon? You're using his comments about the neighborhood set-up spec to make a scum case on me as though I said them. It's not gonna fly Boon. My comment about a 4th neighborhood was very specific. (It included a link. Check the link Boon. It's literally the only reason I ever stated for thinking a fourth neighborhood was possible.)

In fact, I posted the exact same reason for thinking a fourth neighborhood being possible here on Day 1:
In post 702, Izariael wrote:If the wording of the opening neighborhood post is the same for everyone in such a hood, then I think we may have 4 neighborhoods in total (possibly with 1/4 players each?), each neighborhood being a different "corner" of the room.


I re-stated
this exact reason
in neighborhood, where I had the luxury of linking to the exact passage that it referenced. That's all I've ever mentioned about a fourth neighborhood Boon. I've never speculated beyond that or mentioned it beyond that. Everything that has followed about 4th neighborhood has been you and Aneninen.

I'm getting fed-up with your shenanigans Boon, and PR claim or not I will lynch you if you keep up this bullshit.
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Post Post #2739 (isolation #73) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:55 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2737, Flubbernugget wrote:Who was in the boons/iz hood?


Boonskiies, Shiro, goodmorning,
Aneninen
and myself
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Post Post #2750 (isolation #74) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2743, Boonskiies wrote:"While I suspect a 4th neighborhood (your corner of the Masquerade :right: 4 corners?) I have not seen confirmation or statement of it in the thread..."

You said this, Iz.

Aneninen then replied with what you are saying. It was
you
that brought it up.


:facepalm: I'm not denying I spoke of the possibility of a fourth neighborhood, but the only speculation I've made of it is exactly this. There's been no indication that there is a fourth neighborhood, and the rest of that quote, had you chosen to read it, specifically articulated that we should be working on the assumption that it is only the three we know of until we see proof of otherwise.

You and Aneninen have been the only ones to delve into more detail of the speculation. Shiro, goodmorning and myself have not dove any further into it, or speculated who could be in a 4th neighborhood and how many people are in it. That never happened! What you have quoted is the
full extent
of my mention of it, from start to finish. It was nearly a copy/paste of my comment from day 1, just with the added bonus of a link to show exactly where I got the idea from.
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Post Post #2755 (isolation #75) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:09 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2752, Boonskiies wrote:Good morning
thinks
you scum slipped also. Your speculation wasn't genuine.


Thinks? Or thought?


She, unlike you, was open to discussing it. Read her statement to me in and then my reply in within the context of neighborhood chat.
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Post Post #2769 (isolation #76) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:20 pm

Post by Izariael »

Oh for crying out loud. I'm so sick of this beating around the bush. Most of the stuff I said in neighborhood last night was a rehash of things I said in Day 1 thread.

The scumslip, if I'm even understanding it correctly, was the result of a post made during the night that was very similar in nature to this one:

In post 712, Izariael wrote:The way I see it, scum will be talking amongst themselves on night 1 (if they didn't already do so on night 0) and revealing to one another who is in their neighborhoods, if applicable.


The wording was
almost identical
, except that
in the neighborhood post I didn't have the "if applicable" portion at the end
and the portion in brackets wasn't a part of it. I don't think the sentiment of the statement was changed in any capacity beyond the differences I just mentioned. I'm fairly certain the bolded portion is what led to it being called a scumslip.

The post in question came in the middle of a series of responses I had made to Aneninen's question: Was it in town's interest to have outed the existence of neighborhoods and the players in them? In the series of posts I explained my stance on it, and how Cho's early game actions and the realization that we had multiple neighborhoods had shifted my stance on it.

I've been touting that we shouldn't assume scum will be in each hood, which is the stance I believe in. However, the stance that scum would know who was in each neighborhood on Night 1 made an assumption: there was scum in every hood to know of its existence. The two don't line up, and there was a distinct disconnect in reasoning that permeated the entirety of my actions and statements on the matter, both in Day 1 and during Night 1. goodmorning commented that it looked like a scumslip, which I hadn't even understood
why
until Aneninen spoke up just before the start of Day 2. I never had a chance to continue the discussion in neighborhood thread before Day 2 started, otherwise I think this would likely not have come up, or at least not be monopolizing as much of the Day 2 play as it is.

Now, for anyone who read this post, go back and read and its follow-up .

And yes, Aneninen's "plan" for today came after all of this. I'll wait to see what happens now that this is on the table first though. Terrible things, I'm sure. :roll:
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Post Post #2770 (isolation #77) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:24 pm

Post by Izariael »

Actually, feel free to go back and read pretty much the entire interaction between goodmorning, Boonskiies, Shiro and myself on Day 2. I think this will shed a lot of light on some things. Very little remains that hasn't been beaten to death in the thread now.
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Post Post #2771 (isolation #78) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:47 pm

Post by Izariael »

Also, for all players who are interested in bogging through this shit, keep in mind that
the entirety of Boonskiies' "productive" contributions for the night were to do the following
:

In post 2563, Boonskiies wrote:I claimed that I have a protective role in the thread, and also asked who people thought would be worth protecting.
(his non-productive contributions were to complain about a lack of focus in large games and to say that he'd be much more helpful to town if he survived the night :giggle: )

So when he says "we did this" it should really be read as "this happened but I (Boonskiies) didn't participate"

For example:
In post 2569, Boonskiies wrote:
We
also talked a lot about Egg, and how Egg targeted Peregrine yesterDay.
Uh... no
we
didn't, and certainly not Boonskiies. Aneninen made a single comment about this.
We
talked about how when there's only one person left in a neighborhood, the last immediately becomes an "auto FoS".
Again, this was Aneninen's comment. No one else discussed this particular point, though I would have engaged it had there been time. It was said after my final posts of the night.
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Post Post #2773 (isolation #79) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:56 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2772, Garmr wrote:I don't get how that was a scum slip?
The statement was saying that scum would
inevitably
know who was in the neighborhoods on night one. It was faulty reasoning on my part where I was sub-consciously making the assumption that every neighborhood had scum in it and would communicate neighborhood set-up to their scum teammates. By stating that it was
inevitable
I was implying that I instead had inside knowledge that each neighborhood had scum in it or that scum already knew who was in the hoods.
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Post Post #2774 (isolation #80) » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:58 pm

Post by Izariael »

I might be completely off-base with all of this though. It was goodmorning who pointed my statement out to be a scumslip, so if it is something entirely different then she will correct me.
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Post Post #2876 (isolation #81) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:30 am

Post by Izariael »

VOTE: Boonskiies

His last four posts and Flubber's fakeclaim meta () are the tipping points for me. :igmeou:
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Post Post #2932 (isolation #82) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:13 am

Post by Izariael »

Phone post here... will provide quotes when I have computer access.

Tier, maybe you haven't been reading my posts, but my vote isn't really some out-of-the-blue thing. I stated earlier thst I didn't trust Boon's softclaim (it seems even more dodgy given his fullclaim now). I've been subjected to a number of fabricated accusations from Boon, in which he has claimed that my night actions were to A) Kill Egg, B) Kill Aneninen and C) deliberately NOT kill Boonskiies to earn towncred.

HOW DOES C EVEN MAKE SENSE WITH HIS FULLCLAIM? 2-SHOT BULLETPROOF?

Then there's the fakeclaim meta from Flubber. It may not seem like much to you, but I think it's pretty damn parallel, especially given his neighborhood roleclaims, which my fellow neighbors can check out as well.

There's also the fact that the four posts of his referenced in my previous post had him completely retracting his townread on Thor after Shiro brought up a valid point. Rather than retract his bullshit case on me, he would rather retract the townread on Thor which has already influenced his actions in Day 1 and 2.

There's also the fact that he keeps saying "I did (insert action) to gauge so-and-so's reaction". BULLSHIT. His question in neighborhood was never directed at anyone. If I'd not replied, would he still be saying he did it to gauge my reaction? If someone else had replied instead of me, would he still be saying he did it to gauge my reaction? I doubt either scenario would have happened. I think he's using the convenience that I DID reply to act as though his action was a deliberate attempt at scumhunting.

Nevermind that he's doing scummy shit with his Thor vote and saying "he did it to gauge goodmorning's reaction" Like... wtf? That doesn't excuse the fact that it was scummy as fuck. Throwing away the read you've touted with the most conviction in favor of a flimsy scumread? What was the point of all his "Thor is town" nonsense then... Does no one remember that he hammered the vote on PeregrineV because "he trusts Thor"? Read his damn ISO from to the end of the day () and tell me that him throwing his Thor townread out the window the way he did isn't scummy as fuck.

Furthermore, he was asking "who is worth protecting tonight" - what was the point of saying this right after saying "guys, I have a protective role" if he's a "TOWN 2-SHOT BULLETPROOF NEIGHBOR"? If he was trying to scumhunt, then I think that's an inefficient way to go about it, certainly moreso since it's made him do nothing but bark up the wrong tree. I think it's just a flat-out fakeclaim and he couldn't keep his shit straight.
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Post Post #2933 (isolation #83) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:19 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 2932, Izariael wrote:Furthermore, he was asking "who is worth protecting tonight" - what was the point of saying this right after saying "guys, I have a protective role" if he's a "TOWN 2-SHOT BULLETPROOF NEIGHBOR"? If he was trying to scumhunt, then I think that's an inefficient way to go about it, certainly moreso since it's made him do nothing but bark up the wrong tree. I think it's just a flat-out fakeclaim and he couldn't keep his shit straight.


This took place in neighborhood but has been covered previously. As I said, I can't quote easily on phone and it gets time-consuming, but I wanted it to be clear that these actions were part of night activity in the hood. Boonskiies' talks about it.
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Post Post #2937 (isolation #84) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:23 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 2932, Izariael wrote:Read his damn ISO from to the end of the day


EBWOP.
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Post Post #2967 (isolation #85) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:53 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 2965, Aegor wrote:
reinoe replaces GrayFoxxxx, effective immediately.


Uuugh... kill it with fffiiiirrreeeeeee.
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Post Post #2968 (isolation #86) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:54 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 2960, Boonskiies wrote:I don't care enough to explain anything on him. I was just trying to get people off Thor and onto Iz when I said he was town.


So when you spent 3/4 posts saying nothing more than "Thor is town" on day 1, it was to get people onto me? :roll:
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Post Post #2969 (isolation #87) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:56 am

Post by Izariael »

Nevermind that NO ONE WAS VOTING THOR. I'm calling bullshit.
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Post Post #3047 (isolation #88) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:37 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3045, TierShift wrote:Right, so why is boon being wagoned now? Can someone explain? For me, his claim checks out.

I don't think I want to lynch shiro either today.

Agreed on Shiro. I'm contemplating Boonskiies.
From the perspective of aiming to pull the nightkill
, most of his claim makes sense to me except for this part:
In post 2563, Boonskiies wrote:Anenien was very prominent in our neighborhood last night, along with Iz. I claimed that I have a protective role in the thread, and also asked who people thought would be worth protecting.
I did not claim any role, nor will I be doing so toDay
. The way I said it made it seem like I had a limited use, which Iz pointed out in the thread also. I feel Iz thought he could get some town cred by not killing me after I claimed that I was a protective role, since he most likely thought I was just some noob not knowing what to do, and since he thought I slipped that I had a limited power role, he'd be fine not killing me. I expect there to be at least one scum in my neighborhood, since we are the biggest neighborhood, and Anen is now dead. Goodmorning, Shiro, and Iz have at least one scum there, and I'm banking on it being Iz.


If he was trying to pull the night 1 kill onto him, then
why is he scumreading me for not dying
?
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Post Post #3048 (isolation #89) » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:45 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 2978, Nero Cain wrote:IZ, can you quote the post that made you think there was a 4th hood?


Not directly, though you could see for yourself.

It has been discussed here though:

In post 2735, Izariael wrote:Boon, Aneninen was also the one who mentioned 1/2/3/4/5/6 player neighborhoods (totaling 21 players.) Are you wanting to accuse me of that as well Boon? You're using his comments about the neighborhood set-up spec to make a scum case on me as though I said them. It's not gonna fly Boon. My comment about a 4th neighborhood was very specific. (It included a link. Check the link Boon. It's literally the only reason I ever stated for thinking a fourth neighborhood was possible.)

In fact, I posted the exact same reason for thinking a fourth neighborhood being possible here on Day 1:
In post 702, Izariael wrote:If the wording of the opening neighborhood post is the same for everyone in such a hood, then I think we may have 4 neighborhoods in total (possibly with 1/4 players each?), each neighborhood being a different "corner" of the room.


I re-stated
this exact reason
in neighborhood, where I had the luxury of linking to the exact passage that it referenced. That's all I've ever mentioned about a fourth neighborhood Boon. I've never speculated beyond that or mentioned it beyond that. Everything that has followed about 4th neighborhood has been you and Aneninen.

I'm getting fed-up with your shenanigans Boon, and PR claim or not I will lynch you if you keep up this bullshit.

In post 2800, goodmorning wrote:
In post 2626, Boonskiies wrote:During the night Iz brought up how there is 'probably' a fourth neighborhood. He also said he is new to neighborhoods and doesn't know the ideal play in these situations. Those two don't match up. Why would you think there is probably a fourth neighborhood if you are new to them unless one of your scum partners are in it, and they told you during the night?

He literally said that the word "corner" implied that there were four.
Now, I don't know why he assumes rooms are square/rectangular, but - oh wait. Rooms ARE usually square/rectangular.
Do you not pay attention to the words people say???
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Post Post #3052 (isolation #90) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:09 am

Post by Izariael »

I have thought about it, but I've also thought about that thing where Boon knows that playing the village idiot lets him skate by:

In post 464, Boonskiies wrote:It's true. I be cray cray.
I'mmmmmmmm BOOOOOOONSKIIIIIIIEEEESSS. I'm a village idiot. Plain and simple. I talk of hypothetics, semantics, and usually hammer, and yet, I'm always town, never NK'd, and around day 3 I get really good, and catch the scum out and win the game.
In post 2622, Boonskiies wrote:Actually, the night changed how I felt about everything. People I've played with know I purposely play the Village Idiot, and am actually a lot more competent than I let off. But yeah, things went differently for me than expected, and I'll hopefully be able to go back on route soon. I actually wasn't paying much attention to this game before the night phase, due to me being too lazy to read everything, and I was super into my other game that had just finished.
In post 2922, Boonskiies wrote:Well, it doesn't really matter if I do tbh. I'm town. My posts are village idiot. Can't say I'm not consistent when it keeps happening. ;)


I find it quite feasible to think that scum-Boon could find a way to be manipulative about this.

After all:
In post 2917, Boonskiies wrote:I'm a village idiot on town and a crazy mad genius on scum.
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Post Post #3145 (isolation #91) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:33 pm

Post by Izariael »

Phone post.

Got townreads on Flubber, Muffin, goodmorning, Shiro, TierShift and reinoe (mostly townread on previous players in the slot.)

Leaning town on: TSO, Nero, Slandaar, Axle, Garmr, davesaz

Scumreads: Scripten, Thor, Boonskiies, The Fonz

Undecided: beastcharizard

Phone posting is way too painful to bother with posting reasons right now, so all you get is a glimpse at where I'm at right now. Sorry 'bout it.
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Post Post #3217 (isolation #92) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:37 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3216, TierShift wrote:
In post 3209, T S O wrote:muffin you're really not winning this argument whatsoever.

are you even reading

This.
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Post Post #3219 (isolation #93) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:09 pm

Post by Izariael »

Yes.
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Post Post #3223 (isolation #94) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:19 pm

Post by Izariael »

Oh... sorry. I thought you said a simple yes or no response would suffice. I must have misunderstood.
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Post Post #3228 (isolation #95) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:43 pm

Post by Izariael »

VOTE: Thor

Here's the extent of my answer, Thor.
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Post Post #3233 (isolation #96) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:53 pm

Post by Izariael »

It's like your explanations to Muffin's questions in that regard, isn't it?
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Post Post #3241 (isolation #97) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:06 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3236, Thor665 wrote:@Iz - make me the offer, force me into the exchange of info. Call me on my bluff.


I see no need to do so. I was merely an observer of the discussion at hand until I indicated that I liked Muffin's stance on it. From my perspective, you were unable to refute Muffin's line of questioning, and are now resorting to pulling others into the discussion with the intent of straw-manning the entire accusation.
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Post Post #3247 (isolation #98) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:31 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3244, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3219, Izariael wrote:Yes.


and you want to lynch him over that,

but you wouldnt want to lynch TSO for all the times he ...

please explain.


Because I played with Town-TSO in NY176 and have determined that his behavior seems very similar to what I saw there and have determined that he is likely town. Thor, however, I do not.

As for not voting Garmr, I would suggest going back in my ISO to my list of reads posted yesterday evening. I wouldn't vote for someone who isn't on my scumread list.
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Post Post #3252 (isolation #99) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:49 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3250, Boonskiies wrote:Welp, ignorant people will be ignorant. I said once I realized I'm not going to be NK'd, I claimed. Do with it what you will.

VOTE: Reinoe

Usually when I find people to be ignorant they end up being scum.


You've never played with reinoe, have you...
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Post Post #3257 (isolation #100) » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:05 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3249, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3247, Izariael wrote: I wouldn't vote for someone who isn't on my scumread list.


and why isnt he?


I'm sure there's a reason somewhere why I don't have Garmr on my scumread list but it's not really on the forefront of my mind.

On a rather unrelated note, seeing a player of Thor's caliber relying on petty insults to defend himself is somewhat shameful and continues to make me think that he has no genuine defense or explanation to offer.

Does anyone have thoughts on beastcharizard/hephaestus slot? Is it alignment-indicative for either player to be so lurky?
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Post Post #3278 (isolation #101) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:54 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3277, TierShift wrote:And when your basis is wrong, why do you keep insisting other people are to blame?

Because Thor wins his arguments/debates by cramming his opinions down other people's throats, regardless of their validity, until the opposition loses motivation to continue the discussion.

Then he scumreads them by saying that they were not pushing their arguments at all or that they must have been arguing something they didn't believe if they would drop it so readily.
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Post Post #3281 (isolation #102) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:59 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3280, AxleGreaser wrote:(although he does not always call them scummy, especially if they are not)


Ah yes, you're right. I forgot that he could also call them terrible town or bad town.
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Post Post #3289 (isolation #103) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:32 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3288, Slandaar wrote:PV was the leading wagon, whom you voted while managing to take no responsibility with your vote with the progression you took.


I don't follow... Shiro isn't denying that she voted PV? What kind of responsibility
should
she be putting on her vote? How are others taking responsibility for their votes in ways that she is not?
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Post Post #3293 (isolation #104) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:54 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3275, Boonskiies wrote:Yeaaaaah...

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool. (A la As You Like It)

Why is Shiro's vote any scummier than the others? I think there were several votes on there that were far scummier than a replacement player voting into a deadline lynch.
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Post Post #3294 (isolation #105) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:58 am

Post by Izariael »

Should she have instead separated herself from the major wagons and voted for someone else entirely in a manner that would have no impact on the final result beyond pushing us closer to no-lynch?

Pedit: why the schnozz did it quote boons in my last post. That was not the intended quote.
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Post Post #3340 (isolation #106) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:19 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3325, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3323, Shiro wrote:Was I supposed to abstain from voting ? A lynch had to happen regardless of how much I liked the wagons. Do you disagree with that ?

Actually yes, especially on Day 1 - you don't vote town reads.
You chose to.
You chose to do it with no explanation at all.
That is screwy.


I don't see an issue with Shiro's votes.
She had a vote on Aneninen. She had discussion with and about Aneninen that resulted in not scumreading him. She moved her vote to Pere, because it seemed that a compromise lynch had to happen.

I find the progression of her thoughts and actions very appropriate and consistent, and I don't find her Pere vote scummy. How would yesterday have gone differently if she'd voted differently? Pere would still have gotten lynched. It seemed inevitable. This is a downright stubborn group of players that is probably going to end up with compromise lynches every day at this rate.

Would any other vote from her have still been scummy? Because it seems like this attention on her vote is solely because it was on the lynch wagon. And I think it's the wrong vote to be focusing on, frankly.
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Post Post #3341 (isolation #107) » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:26 pm

Post by Izariael »

I'm still not sure that I buy Boon's claim. I really think we're dealing with multiball/SK setup, which makes bulletproof scum more probable, imo. I don't trust the claim but it does make sense with a lot of his behavior.
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Post Post #3345 (isolation #108) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:04 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3344, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3340, Izariael wrote:Would any other vote from her have still been scummy? Because it seems like this attention on her vote is solely because it was on the lynch wagon. And I think it's the wrong vote to be focusing on, frankly.

No, a number of other votes would not have been as scummy.

Oh? Such as?
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Post Post #3346 (isolation #109) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:18 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3343, Shiro wrote:@Iz whose vote do u think is the most suspicious ?

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Post Post #3347 (isolation #110) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:28 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3329, Aegor wrote:
Muffin,
Vanilla Townie
, has been modkilled Day 2.


gawddammit Muffinnnn...... you were quickly becoming my top townread :cry:
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Post Post #3348 (isolation #111) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:31 am

Post by Izariael »

Now who am I going to mindlessly sheep since I'm making no effort to evaluate the game and was just supporting any empty case I could find? [/sarcasm]
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Post Post #3349 (isolation #112) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:35 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3343, Shiro wrote:@Thor That lurksack that you mixed me up with did sonething that according to you was a reason for Tier to vote me or find a good enough reason to explain it. Isnt that enough of a reason to find who u mixed me up with ? The person might be scum escaping the lynch because he is being a lurksack no ?


He has no interest in doing so because he's too busy hiding behind his OMGUS vote on me.
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Post Post #3372 (isolation #113) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:37 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3351, Slandaar wrote:Hello IZ????
In post 3301, Slandaar wrote:
In post 3293, Izariael wrote:
Why is Shiro's vote any scummier than the others? I think there were several votes on there that were far scummier than a replacement player voting into a deadline lynch.

If you show me which votes you find scummy I will explain.

I would be interested to see that regardless.


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Post Post #3374 (isolation #114) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:49 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3357, Slandaar wrote:
In post 2660, Shiro wrote:I guess you could connect Anen death to Iz but it is a thin line that had more cons that pros

Does someone actually think this isn't scum?

Uh... yeah. Me. Boon tried to pull a ridiculous case out his ass to pin guilt on me for Anen's death. Shiro, rather than blindly sheeping, analyzed the events that transpired and said that while it *is* possible in theory, it is likely not the case. I felt it was a far townier approach than Boon's tunnel-vision view of the events. Especially when Boon agreed with me that it was multiball/SK and not a vigi kill last night.
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Post Post #3375 (isolation #115) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:05 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3364, Slandaar wrote:Reinoe: that was regarding the IZ slip not the case on Thor.

I didn't feel like gm was pushing this against me. She was attempting to discuss the possible slip because there was no time to do so before Night 1 thread lock. She was far more discreet about it than was necessary, but I think it came from a town perspective of "hey, this scumslip is rather inconclusive, so let's see if there's a valid explanation before pushing it". I really don't think she gave a rat's ass about getting everyone's approval to push it.

In post 2852, goodmorning wrote:I'm not interested in anyone else's opinion on what may or may not have been a slip. I am interested in clarifying Izariael's possible slip with Izariael only.
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Post Post #3378 (isolation #116) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:07 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3377, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3376, goodmorning wrote:I'm sort of leaning Town on him based on the fact that he seems to be scumhunting more genuinely than literally anyone else.

Scumhunting more genuinely than anyone else in the game only earns 'sort of leaning town'?

:lol: Says the guy who posted this readlist:
In post 1022, Thor665 wrote:Aeronaut - lurksack
AxleGrease - poor logic, no clear opinion beyond that. Probably scumish.
Aneninen - No idea, would not oppose lynch, would not support lynch.
Boonskiies - lurksack, begrudingly shifting to town due to Dave, but still a useless slot.
Cho - Lurksack.
GrayFoxxxx - Lurksack.
davesaz - Townish
Egg - Townish
Garmr - Townish
goodmorning - terrible...alignment uncertain ;) Meh, I'd help lynch her and consider it worthwhile probably.
Goofyd00d - Lurksack (mild town on prior to derping out and replace)
hephaestus - burning newb - no real vibe yet, still trying to even get him to commit to opinions.
Izariael - Newb, mild scum...very mild.
Muffin - Not fond of hard Thor defense. Call it mildly mild on the scum side.
Nero Cain - Townish
Scripten - I can remember having an opinion on him but can't recall what it is. If I was asked about him I'd ISO myself and repeat whatever I said last (townish?)
T S O - Townish
TierShift - Townish
TobyLoby - Lurksack.

So yes, by all means, oh wise mafia sensei, tell us all how we
should
be wording our reads to make them credible. I guess this is more of a "do as I say, not as I do" thing, right?
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Post Post #3394 (isolation #117) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:35 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3383, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3373, Nero Cain wrote:I'd pl this slot. His case on PV yesterday was all sorts of horrible.


@Nero

This looks rather a lot like you are claiming scum. Are you claiming scum?

You say today on D2, "His(Thors) case on PV yesterday was all sorts of horrible."

Please show me where on D1 you pointed out that all sorts of horrible?

I dont remember you doing that, and i just I looked and i didnt see you do that.

If it was all sorts of horrible, where were you ?

From what I recall, he was on the Thor wagon.
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Post Post #3398 (isolation #118) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:57 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3390, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3378, Izariael wrote:
In post 3377, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3376, goodmorning wrote:I'm sort of leaning Town on him based on the fact that he seems to be scumhunting more genuinely than literally anyone else.

Scumhunting more genuinely than anyone else in the game only earns 'sort of leaning town'?

:lol: Says the guy who posted this readlist:

I fail to see how that is applicable to my question.

You chose to pick apart the wording of her read to invalidate it, implying that because she lacks conviction of "omg it's so town" that her read is either dishonest or incorrect. Meanwhile, your own reads demonstrate exactly what it is you're griping about.


In post 3387, davesaz wrote:Well, that was a lot to catch up to.

I saw Thor saying things about
how many times
Anen was talked about vs how many times PV was talked about. How many times is clearly a quantity question, and Muffin responded with a quantity answer. Thor then said it's stupid to just count the mentions. Muffin then said, quite reasonably I would observe, that it's not just the quantity of the mentions that Thor was concerned about, but the
quality
. I totally expected Thor to reply that quality of mention / conversation was exactly what he was talking about, but Thor's reply was about Muffin's question being stupid, the measurement isn't either quality or quantity.

....what?
No - the number of times a name is mentio ned blatantly has *nothing* to do with actualy quantity except on the most derptastic scale.
Did you honestly think I meant "number of times a name was mentioned"
WHAT THE SMURF IS WRONG WITH YOU SMURFING SMURFHEADS!?!

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.
And multiple people are okay with it.
I don't even care that Muffin was town - it was stupid as stupid can be and clearly never what I meant.
How the HELL are so many people down with that idea?

In post 3387, davesaz wrote:Then after 2-3 pages, Thor comes back and says it is indeed about the quality of the conversation. Though he still refuses to use that word to describe it, the words he does use still boil down to quality.

No actually - I specifically said quantity and *COUNTED THE NUMBER OF OVERALL WORDS USED TO PROVE I WAS CORRECT*
That had nothing to do with quality - that had to do with quantity.
Like - he talked about Anen more than Pere - it is blatant that he did this.
What the hell are you smoking?

what the hell are YOU smoking? First you say this:
In post 3108, Thor665 wrote:I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.
and now you're saying the
total quantity of words
is what your original statements are about?

I find it dishonest of you to act like the number of words used qualifies the same as degree of mention. # of words != more meaning.
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Post Post #3403 (isolation #119) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:23 pm

Post by Izariael »

It seems to be all the rage these days. I think you were doing it BEFORE it was cool though. You're like... Patient Zero of the quote break outbreak.
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Post Post #3404 (isolation #120) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:24 pm

Post by Izariael »

Dammit, ninja'ed bt the Great Wall of Whine-ah!
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Post Post #3410 (isolation #121) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:22 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?
In post 3099, Muffin wrote:
@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

Prior to #2558, instances of "pere" in Shiro's ISO: 8
instances of "anen" in Shiro's ISO for the same period: 7

Seems like a misrep to me, bud. Flow of Shiro's thoughts are evident to me, and seem reasonable for someone w a town mindset.

You're doing a really bad job selling Shiroscum.

In post 3108, Thor665 wrote:I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.

If your statements were talking about the
total number of words used when listing thoughts about Pere and Anen
, then
this
was the time to clarify it. Not DAYS later. You were asked again and again to back up your comments (clarification of your comment would have worked just fine!) but instead of doing so, you continued to keep it open to interpretation. I don't think Muffin's interpretations were completely unfounded, as you say they are. "Degree of mention" does suggest a
qualitative
attribute rather than a
quantitative
one.

That said, I still don't see scumminess in Shiro's transitioning read on Aneninen nor do I see scum in her voteswap to Peregrine. I would rather see her vote a mild townread on Day 1 than to vote a scumread that will not gain momentum by deadline. Not everyone subscribes to your school of thought on that aspect, Thor. In a micro, I'd be more inclined to support it, but not in a large.
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Post Post #3411 (isolation #122) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:38 pm

Post by Izariael »

The amount of times you tiptoed around clarifying your statement and instead said "Well I've got proof, but you show me yours first!!" was what made me supportive toward Muffin's line of questioning. There was really no reason for it beyond stalling. Then when Tier and I stated that we felt Muffin was producing the stronger arguments, you latched on right away, asking us to answer on Muffin's behalf and produce the evidence.
In post 3221, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3219, Izariael wrote:Yes.

Sweet - can you answer either of my questions to Muffin for him?
In post 3222, Thor665 wrote:I'll even promise to answer Muffin's question to me in exchange for you answering for him.

Tier can also hop on this wagon - heck, if you answer first and Tier wants to sally in I'll even offer up a guess as to what Lurker I meant. It's an answer extravaganza!
In post 3236, Thor665 wrote:@Iz - make me the offer, force me into the exchange of info. Call me on my bluff.

I really fail to see the town motivation for this reactive behavior. If it was a misunderstanding then you should have been proactive in clarifying it. Instead, as I mentioned before, it looked like you were waiting for Tier and I to comment so that you could strawman the entire discussion.

The part of your exchange with Muffin that struck me wasn't the semantics of your conversation, but rather your behaviors. I townread Muffin for his, and have nothing but scumread for yours.
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Post Post #3524 (isolation #123) » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:39 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3523, Thor665 wrote:And here's where I voted him.
I never cited him as being wrong - as is even shown here I was talking to him about what I meant, but I presented a belief he was being intentionally obtuse and I found that to be scummy.

I talked with him being wrong through three iterations before having an issue with it as scummy.
And none of his iterations make any sense to what I said.


And yet, not once did you present your statement as it was supposedly intended until afterward. You had every possible opportunity during your interaction with Muffin to display the information your post was referring to, but failed to do so in favor of saying "no, you're wrong, but I'm not going to show why until you provide proof for your side of it"

As an on-looker, Muffin's attempts to provide the information against your argument were valid. I don't think he was horrendously misconstruing your statements, and in fact I think his interpretations were sensible.
You
should have clarified right from the get-go rather than allow the situation to devolve into petty semantics and stalling. Your actions here were completely counter-productive and relied on slamming down what you say was nothing more than "word games" when simply clarifying the statement could have curbed the whole thing.
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Post Post #3531 (isolation #124) » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:05 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3525, Shiro wrote:Can someone give me a brief of the case on thor in one post everything neatly placed.

Cause to me this whole thing people hang him over is well kinda stupid since I kind of did talk more about anen and voted pere afterwards (although I did explain why) Why would he inetentionally be ambigius to stir this whole thing up when he was trying to make people vote me. It makes no sense. None. In fact it apparently made him look horrible. Why would scum do it ?


My scumread on Thor has nothing to do with what YOU did or didn't do.

It is based on his chronic obsession with invalidating others' interpretations of his statements rather than clarifying.

It is based on his constant stalling and limiting of the exchange of information.

It is based on his behavior of consistently devaluing the scumreads of others on him by saying they are "terrible town" or "a useless slot" instead of countering the argument systematically.

It is based on his inability to hold himself accountable for his own actions or the impact they've had on the gamestate, and his distinct preference to point fingers everywhere else.

It is based on his voting habits, which appear to be sheer OMGUS on PeregrineV, Muffin and myself. Woe be unto those who question the mighty Thor and his infallible gameplay...

It is based on my belief that he is not genuinely scumhunting, as nearly all of his scumreads have come from reactivity rather than proactivity.

And it is my inability to see how all of the above characteristics stem from a town motivation that has led me to the conclusion that Thor is scum.
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Post Post #3635 (isolation #125) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:24 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3634, TierShift wrote:Ok who was it that said shiro was obvious newbtown?


That would be , for whatever it's worth.
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Post Post #3637 (isolation #126) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:29 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3626, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3601, reinoe wrote:5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.


@reinoe
First
Please show me where Thor portrayed it as scummy. (He didnt)

Axle, did you miss this?
In post 3202, Thor665 wrote:It is scummy, stupid, and annoying.
In post 3203, Thor665 wrote:
Vote: muffin

Thor is very clearly indicating that he found it scummy.
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Post Post #3639 (isolation #127) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:31 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3636, Scripten wrote:
Tiershift:


In post 3464, Scripten wrote:I love it when my scumreads pretty much out themselves. Garmr's replace out is not alignment-indicative, but that opportunistic vote on Thor is just icing on the scum-cake.

That said, I'm a little bothered by Garmr's jump onto Thor's wagon. It -definitely- does not read as a bus attempt, so Thor is either town
or, at least, scum/3rd-party not aligned with scum-Garmr.
(Sorry, bringing up multiball again... :P ) It makes me feel like the Thor wagon should migrate over to Garmr for today.

Missing a third alternative where Garmr is town and Thor is scum. Never mind that option 2 is also a viable vote for Thor.
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Post Post #3642 (isolation #128) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:07 pm

Post by Izariael »

Well, I'll just call it like I see it: Garmr wagon seems like a deliberately-placed counter-wagon made by scum to avoid Thor lynch.
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Post Post #3670 (isolation #129) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:50 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3668, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3666, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3083, Thor665 wrote:That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then
voted Pere out of the blue with no justification
despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.

@Reinoe - here is the initial commentary that Muffin took exception to - please explain how it is "misleading"?

Let's even note, the bold is basically the major point made there.

Muffin then came after me with "I ISOed Shiro and the number of times Pere's name comes up in Ctrl+F is 1 more than Anen - so your case is a misrep!"


It was ridiculous for him to say that.
It is ridiculous that I have been having to discuss it with multiple people.
I never said names, I never said anything unclear - I offered a very straight to the point comment and Muffin went full derp on it.
Go ahead, talk me through the horrible confusion of the statement. i want to understand this.


Uhh... no. NO NO NO! You are directly omitting some posts, and it is definitely not what happened. Here, let me help you (WITH TRUE FACTS):

In post 3083, Thor665 wrote:
I'm mixing you ((Shiro)) up with someone else in my head, clearly
.

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then
voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen.
That feels wonky to me.

In post 3089, Muffin wrote:
In post 3083, Thor665 wrote:I'm mixing you up with someone else in my head, clearly.

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.

Cute misrep.

Here's the "wall" in question, about Anen. I note without surprise that the
first line explicitly shows Shiro's diminishing scumread on Anen.
Given the proximity of deadline I do not see any internal inconsistency there.

Contrarily, you're now stretching the facts to fit your vote.
In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there.
Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere.
Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?
In post 3099, Muffin wrote:
In post 3088, Shiro wrote:
Who did u even mix me up with ?

In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:
@Shiro - some other lurksack.
In other words, you can't think of someone you can pin it on?


@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

Prior to #2558, instances of "pere" in Shiro's ISO: 8
instances of "anen" in Shiro's ISO for the same period: 7


Seems like a misrep to me, bud. Flow of Shiro's thoughts are evident to me, and seem reasonable for someone w a town mindset.

You're doing a really bad job selling Shiroscum.


Followed by the ensuing discussion between Thor and Muffin. Once again, Thor is contorting facts to fit his side of the issue.
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Post Post #3688 (isolation #130) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:28 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3686, davesaz wrote:
In post 3681, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3680, Thor665 wrote:he then claimed I "moved the goalposts to quantity"

He claimed I moved to "quality"

So Muffin claimed I had meant quantity and moved to quality.
You claim I started at quality and moved to quantity.

I am pretty sure one of you is insane.
Sort it out and get back to me.


You stated a case on Shiro.
Muffin asked what the basis was.
You said it was because Shiro was talking more about Anen but voted PereV.
Muffin showed the quantity was roughly even.
You said that number of mentions was immaterial, it was degree of mention.
Muffin asked you to show, with quotes of Shiro, what you meant.
You refused to do so, and continue to do so.


This is what is scummy. The bolded thing. Someone asks you to prove your point, and
you ask them to prove the counter point
.
You complain about others not carrying their case forward, but you're doing something even worse, not just failing to carry it but refusing to.
Not just creating miscommunication, but actively fostering it and refusing to fix the problem.
You did that with PereV, where the two of you were clearly using different definitions, and given a chance to find common ground holding steadfast to your point. (Which he did too, but you're still here...)

Is that clear enough? Do you get what the case is?


Somebody give this man a medal. Any doubts I had of davesaz have just been shattered.
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Post Post #3691 (isolation #131) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:40 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3690, TierShift wrote:Well iza dave is just repeating your argument so that should not really get him townpoints.

I guess that's somewhat true. I'm feeling a bit frustrated by the status of Thor lynch so I guess it feel re-affirming to see it said from another perspective.
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Post Post #3693 (isolation #132) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:53 pm

Post by Izariael »

I'm sold enough on it that I'm not planning to move my vote anytime soon. I have other scumreads, but Thor is pretty fuckin' scummy.

I'm working on the mother of all posts, so brace yourself. It should be done shortly.
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Post Post #3695 (isolation #133) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:07 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3694, TierShift wrote:
In post 3686, davesaz wrote:Not just creating miscommunication, but actively fostering it and refusing to fix the problem.
You did that with PereV, where the two of you were clearly using different definitions, and given a chance to find common ground holding steadfast to your point. (Which he did too, but you're still here...)

Just what do you think of this, iza?


I think it's absolutely spot on. I've been trying to find the post where it was made clear that they were not seeing eye-to-eye on the definitions being used, but it'll have to wait again until I finish up this post I'm working on.

I think that Thor should have re-evaluated his scumread on PeregrineV after that disconnect was made clear, as Peregrine had done.
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Post Post #3698 (isolation #134) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:13 pm

Post by Izariael »

Sure it's a completely different situation to the one with Muffin, but
it was still scummy
. Just because it's day 2 doesn't mean I'm going to ignore what transpired on day 1.
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Post Post #3700 (isolation #135) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:21 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3681, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3680, Thor665 wrote:he then claimed I "moved the goalposts to quantity"

He claimed I moved to "quality"

So Muffin claimed I had meant quantity and moved to quality.
You claim I started at quality and moved to quantity.

I am pretty sure one of you is insane.
Sort it out and get back to me.


Here, sorted: Your read on Shiro was terrible. When called out on it by Shiro you adapted to justify your vote sitting on her. When called out on the new reasoning by Muffin, you began a debate of semantics. Your argument changed several times through the day and both gm and Muffin are justified in questioning you for doing so, regardless of whatever "quality/quantity" arguments any of you three are using to argue for or against it.

Behold, the supreme towniness of Day 2 Thor (sarcasm):


#1)
The naked vote. Really makes you feel like you understand why Thor suspects Shiro, right?
In post 2556, Thor665 wrote:
Vote: Shiro

#2)
Eventually a reason is pried out of him. It's pretty lackluster given what we saw from Day 1 Thor.
In post 2696, Thor665 wrote:Shiro is scum due to gut and wagon placement.

#3)
He refuses to elaborate on
why
Shiro's wagon placement is scummy, and instead just redirects the question back without an answer:
In post 3028, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2971, Shiro wrote:@thor Hey since axl bored you and you didn't answer him mind answering to Shiro why the placement on the Pere wagon was scummy ?

Do you think that your wagon placement looks townish or null?

#4)
Questions Tier's activity-based townread on Shiro, implying that her recent activity at that point was the result of scum feeling pressured. When corrected by Shiro, he then finds other reasons to justify his vote. When that new reasoning is discounted by Shiro (who explained her actions) and again by Muffin (who attests to thinking the actions were from a genuine town mind-set), Thor then makes what is a key statement in events to follow:
In post 3075, Thor665 wrote:So you are townreading Shiro because Shiro is starting to look like she's doing "anything at all"?
In post 3079, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3077, TierShift wrote:yeah, thor, you got that.

I would suggest that Shiro's activity can be directly connected to pressure on her.

Do you agree/disagree?
If you agree - why is that still a town read?

If you disagree - what do you see as the trigger for her current activity compared to the last week or two of Day 1?
In post 3082, Shiro wrote:Thor....I replaced in 23/10 caught up at 25/10 Deadline was at 27/10 whichs weeks of day 1 do you speak of that I stayed silent ???
In post 3083, Thor665 wrote:
I'm mixing you up with someone else in my head, clearly.

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.
In post 3087, Shiro wrote:@Thor....I caught up at 25/10 I started posting at 25/10

Wall of text about Anen at 26/10

If that is awfully long then I am sorry for not meeting your replace in on 92page long game timing standars.

As for the vote on Pere. Axl and re read on Anen ISO made me stop feeling off about Anen thus I found Pere the best option between You,Anen and Pere.
In post 3088, Shiro wrote:Who did u even mix me up with ?
In post 3089, Muffin wrote:
In post 3083, Thor665 wrote:I'm mixing you up with someone else in my head, clearly.

That said. You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen. That feels wonky to me.

Cute misrep.

Here's the "wall" in question, about Anen. I note without surprise that the first line explicitly shows Shiro's diminishing scumread on Anen. Given the proximity of deadline I do not see any internal inconsistency there.

Contrarily, you're now stretching the facts to fit your vote.
In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:@Axle - so you cannot state a read on Shiro then?

@Shiro -
some other lurksack
.

@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

#5)
Muffin does exactly what Thor asks of him :up: in the most literal sense possible: he goes to Shiro's ISO, uses CTRL+F to search for "Anen" and "Pere" and notes the number of references. It's a valid interpretation, and Muffin's findings discount Thor's statement.
Muffin shouldn't have had to waste his time dredging up oodles of information to discount a case if no effort was made to present the facts in the first place.
Rather than clarifying his statement in 3091 as he supposedly intended it to be read (),
Thor instead relies on a series of discredits, word manipulations and deflections to defend his statement.

In post 3099, Muffin wrote:
In post 3088, Shiro wrote:Who did u even mix me up with ?

In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:@Shiro - some other lurksack.
In other words, you can't think of someone you can pin it on?

@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

Prior to #2558, instances of "pere" in Shiro's ISO: 8
instances of "anen" in Shiro's ISO for the same period: 7

Seems like a misrep to me, bud. Flow of Shiro's thoughts are evident to me, and seem reasonable for someone w a town mindset.

You're doing a really bad job selling Shiroscum.
In post 3101, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3099, Muffin wrote:Prior to #2558, instances of "pere" in Shiro's ISO: 8
instances of "anen" in Shiro's ISO for the same period: 7

:neutral:
Wow.
In post 3107, Muffin wrote:
In post 3101, Thor665 wrote:Wow.


Is this you capitulating, and accepting that your rationale for Shiro being scum is entirely false? Or is this you expressing disbelief that I have twice shown you being dishonest in your characterizations of Shiro?
In post 3108, Thor665 wrote:
I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note that this is the statement that Muffin says shifts the goalposts from quantity to quality
:up: :up: :up:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3110, Muffin wrote:
In post 3108, Thor665 wrote:I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.

Oh so now the valid metric is "Thor's qualitative, arbitrary scale describing the degree to which someone was mentioned"?
In post 3117, Muffin wrote:Time to make gm happy I guess?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: thor
In post 3126, Thor665 wrote:
What do you think the correct scale is then and/or what I meant?
Specifically and only number of times a name was mentioned?
Because that is either incredibly stupid or incredibly dishonest of you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERLUDE: Consider the above comment, and how it aims to discredit Muffin for using CTRL+F to search Shiro's iso for the name mentions. Consider that Thor made no attempt here or initially to defend his statement with evidence. Now consider the following statement as said by Thor:
In post 2909, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2898, AxleGreaser wrote:
@Thor
please indicate which post by dave made you town read Boon?

Go to his iso, use Ctrl+F for 'Boon' find a post where he's talking about Boon
and his claim and how he doesn't see it as a valid scum move.
That would be the post.
You now have the exact method I would use to find it - so you can do it just as easily as I can, and I don't see any reason to spend time doing the hunt for you.

Now consider why Thor would be discrediting Muffin for finding information in a literal and sensible manner, when he himself has already endorsed doing so. True, the circumstances are not identical, however they are very similar - a player was asked to present information and sought to do so in an efficient manner.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3127, Muffin wrote:Prior to and including the vote in question:
**SNIP**

So, yeah. 3 posts seem to be mostly about pere, and 4 mostly about anen, including one that is sort of about both of them. Not to mention if you go through them chronologically there is a clear progression of reads. Do you want to try your pathetically-bad argument again?

In before Thor just restates the same argument ignoring the factual evidence that he is full of shit.
In before "yeah but it's the QUALITY of the mentions, on some subjective scale it's impossible to argue against because I just made it up"
In post 3128, Muffin wrote:
In post 3126, Thor665 wrote:What do you think the correct scale is then and/or what I meant?
Specifically and only number of times a name was mentioned?
Because that is either incredibly stupid or incredibly dishonest of you.


First you spoke of the number of mentions:
In post 3091, Thor665 wrote:Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere.


Then I did a quick ctrl+f and saw that mentions were roughly on par.

After that you decided that no, even though you said "look at how many thoughts were posted", you didn't mean quantity. What you meant by "how many" was in fact a meaningless, qualitative "the degree to which they were mentioned":
In post 3108, Thor665 wrote:I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.
In post 3129, Thor665 wrote:
So when I said 'thoughts' you went with 'names' and decided that was legit.


Your Pere quotes are pretty heavily padded out with conversation about Thor and you know it.
Back up this gak some more please.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note that once again, instead of clarifying his original statement AS HE SUPPOSEDLY INTENDED IT TO BE READ, he puts the onus on Muffin to once again go back and dredge up information while he himself presents
nothing
.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3130, Muffin wrote:
In post 3129, Thor665 wrote:So when I said 'thoughts' you went with 'names' and decided that was legit.
At first perhaps. I then went and did it your way. You're still full of shit.

Your Pere quotes are pretty heavily padded out with conversation about Thor and you know it.
Hmmm, you're saying it's the quality of the mentions that matters now? I'm pretty sure I saw that mentioned somewhere already...
Muffin wrote:In before "yeah but it's the QUALITY of the mentions, on some subjective scale it's impossible to argue against because I just made it up"
In post 3131, Muffin wrote:
In post 3129, Thor665 wrote:Back up this gak some more please.

Says the guy voting an obvtown newbie.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
FUN FACT: Tier steps in and offers his input:
In post 3146, TierShift wrote:
In post 3129, Thor665 wrote:So when I said 'thoughts' you went with 'names' and decided that was legit.

Your Pere quotes are pretty heavily padded out with conversation about Thor and you know it.
Back up this gak some more please.

Right, this is not only factually wrong, but an awful defence to muffin's points as well.

Back to the show.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3159, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3130, Muffin wrote:
Your Pere quotes are pretty heavily padded out with conversation about Thor and you know it.
Hmmm, you're saying it's the quality of the mentions that matters now? I'm pretty sure I saw that mentioned somewhere already...
Muffin wrote:In before "yeah but it's the QUALITY of the mentions, on some subjective scale it's impossible to argue against because I just made it up"

How is my comment about quality?
I'm saying some of the quotes you provided are "padded out" (i.e. made larger seeming) by conversation about me.
That appears to be directly related to size - or quantity - moreso than quality.
How am I wrong here and am making a comment about quality?
In post 3166, Muffin wrote:
In post 3159, Thor665 wrote:I'm saying some of the quotes you provided are "padded out" (i.e. made larger seeming) by conversation about me.

They're direct quotes, I haven't padded anything.

If you think my analysis is incorrect, feel free to do your own and show me the error of my ways. I'm open to being convinced, but somehow I think you'll just keep going "NUH UH" instead of doing anything useful.
In post 3182, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3166, Muffin wrote:
If you think my analysis is incorrect, feel free to do your own and show me the error of my ways.
I'm open to being convinced, but somehow I think you'll just keep going "NUH UH" instead of doing anything useful.

No
- it's a valid question from my part. Where do you think I went with 'quality' as a shift there?
You claimed I did.
Where did I and how?


I didn't.
At all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In case it isn't clear: THOR IS VERY DIRECTLY REFUSING TO PRESENT EVIDENCE OR CLARIFY THE MISUNDERSTANDING. HE HAS PUT ALL OF THE BURDEN OF THIS DEBATE ON MUFFIN AND HAS PRESENTED
NOTHING
OF FACT TO SUPPORT HIS ARGUMENTS ANYWHERE IN THIS DISCUSSION.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3187, Muffin wrote:
Thrice you've disagreed with the analysis I did. Stop dodging it. If you think I'm wrong or misrepresenting you, show me Shiro's posts the way I ought to have seen them.
In post 3188, Muffin wrote:It should be obvious the bit about "quality" was paraphrasing.

First you said the number of name mentions was not sufficient. Then you said I misrepresented the posts, and something something the degree of mentions.

So show me the right way to interpret those posts.

If you don't, it's because you can't.
In post 3191, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3187, Muffin wrote:Thrice you've disagreed with the analysis I did. Stop dodging it. If you think I'm wrong or misrepresenting you, show me Shiro's posts the way I ought to have seen them.

That's not what I'm disagreeing on.

YOU claimed I had asserted a quality instead of quantity - being a shift from my original statement.
I am asking YOU to back that up.
I can't prove something you said that I think is made up - that's not a valid thing to ask me to do.
Unless this is admission you're making gak up? Is that what this is? I can work with that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, a deflection. Muffin had already presented what he felt was the shift from quantity to quality (3110 and 3128 :up: :up: :up: )
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3193, Thor665 wrote:
:neutral:

This is starting to sound more and more like 'made up' to me.


So the quantity thing - how was that a paraphrase?
Like, specifically - how did you even get that? I said nothing even close to that.
In post 3194, Muffin wrote:
You can't do it, can you? You can't show why my interpretation of Shiro's posts is wrong. You can't show what a "proper" interpretation of them is.


Gee, why not, Thor?
In post 3195, Thor665 wrote:The quality over quantity thing.
I did say something that it is easy to take as quantity - but you then accused me of shifting to quality and changing the goalposts.
That was made up gak on your part - T/F?
In post 3196, Thor665 wrote:No piss off, dude.
I can back up what I said.


I want you to back up what you're CLAIMING I said when you attacked me over it.
In post 3197, Thor665 wrote:Like, back up how you translated that.
You're all in a huff about how I'm translating Shiro - yet you're making up things I said while doing it and your big gripe with me is that and that you disagree.

Those issues are light years apart.
You need to back up what you said.
In post 3198, Muffin wrote:I tried twice to look at quantity. You shot it down both times. Flimsily. So if it's not the two ways I've tried to show it quantitatively, and it's not qualitatively,
then why can't you show evidence to back up your statements about Shiro
?

Why not?
In post 3199, Muffin wrote:
In post 3196, Thor665 wrote:No piss off, dude.
I can back up what I said.

Obviously you can't, or you'd have done it already.
In post 3202, Thor665 wrote:
Spoiler: shortened for the long-lost sense of brevity
In post 3198, Muffin wrote:I tried twice to look at quantity. You shot it down both times. Flimsily. So if it's not the two ways I've tried to show it quantitatively, and it's not qualitatively, then why can't you show evidence to back up your statements about Shiro?

Why not?

#6)
ENTER THE MACHINE OF THINLY-VEILED OMGUS:
In post 3202, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3198, Muffin wrote:I tried twice to look at quantity. You shot it down both times. Flimsily. So if it's not the two ways I've tried to show it quantitatively, and it's not qualitatively, then why can't you show evidence to back up your statements about Shiro?

Why not?

Stop dicking around with me.

I made a statement about amount.

You translated that to "number of times a name is mentioned"

Which - c'mon, dude, are you serious? No - tthat is obvious bull-hookey on your part.

Then, when I point that out - you shift to "percentage of posts...but I'll just count posts where the name is mentioned and pay no attention to the amount that each is actually discussed"

Again - what the heck? Why are you playing word games? You know that's not what I meant and are dicking around.

When I call you on THAT we go into this game where you claim I changed the goalposts to "quality".
Except I never did.

STOP PLAYING SMURF FACED GAMES.

Why are you doing this?
It is scummy, stupid, and annoying.
In post 3203, Thor665 wrote:
Vote: muffin


I'll invote when you start talking like town and not like a word game scum feeb.
In post 3204, Muffin wrote:
In post 3203, Thor665 wrote:I got called out when I tried to push a completely weak-ass case on a newbie obvtown lurker, and now I'm feeling cornered so I'm voting the guy who called me on my bully tactics

ok
In post 3205, Thor665 wrote:
No - don't dodge that gak.

Respond to me with an actual response.


You can call me scum, but talk straight to me if you can.
In post 3206, Muffin wrote:Thor: "I can back up what I said"
Muffin: "lol do it then, show me why I'm wrong"
Thor: "no, I'll just vote you instead and pretend to be angry"
In post 3207, Thor665 wrote:
It's funny that you're accussing me of dodging yet are unable to talk to me.


And by funny I mean stupid.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Thor, remember all those times you failed to clarify or present information that could substantiate your presented views? Remember all those times you were asked by Muffin to do so and outright refused or deflected? I guess not. It's okay, I remembered it for you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3208, Thor665 wrote:I'm not stuttering here - I expressed my issue and thoughts VERY clearly.
Yet you can't handle them?

BullSmurf.

You're faking.
In post 3212, Muffin wrote:*snip* MUFFIN'S RECAP POST *snip*
In post 3213, Muffin wrote:
In post 3207, Thor665 wrote:It's funny that you're accussing me of dodging yet are unable to talk to me.

And by funny I mean stupid.

In post 3208, Thor665 wrote:I'm not stuttering here - I expressed my issue and thoughts VERY clearly.
Yet you can't handle them?

BullSmurf.

You're faking.

Sweetheart, if you think the way I've interpreted Shiro's posts is wrong, then you should show an analysis of Shiro's posts that points to scum.

You can't. Why not?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
FUN FACT: Let's poll the rest of the town? What do they think?
In post 3217, Izariael wrote:
In post 3216, TierShift wrote:
In post 3209, T S O wrote:muffin you're really not winning this argument whatsoever.

are you even reading

This.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

#7)
BUT WAIT!! BYSTANDERS BEWARE, FOR THE WILD THORSCUM HAS CLAWS THAT WILL SNATCH AT YOU THROUGH THE CAGE WALLS. HE NEEDS TO STRAWMAN THE ARGUMENT AGAINST HIM BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE AND AGREEING WITH HIS OPPOSITION MAKES YOU THE PRIME CANDIDATE FOR THIS.

In post 3218, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3213, Muffin wrote:Sweetheart, if you think the way I've interpreted Shiro's posts is wrong, then you should show an analysis of Shiro's posts that points to scum.

You can't. Why not?

I've said I can.
That said - what I've ALSO said - is that I want you to explain the quality schtick.

Tell you what - you explain that (and, maybe, if I'm really lucky, toss in why you EVER thought I meant 'number of times a name was mentioned') and I'll explain my reasoning.
Deal?
Good.
Rock on. Blow me away.

In post 3214, TierShift wrote:mostly the 'I'm mixing you up with someone but I'm not telling who' is Smurf.

But yeah, grand summary.

Wait, so Tier

also;
@Iz

BOTH of you are totally happy with the way Muffin questioned this and how he skewed and turned wacky my statements?
Or - even funner - both of you think he didn't make any of my statements wacky and it's totally correct to think I meant 'number of times a name was mentioned' or that I also changed my story to quality over quantity when asked?

Both of you agree with that?

A simple y/n response is all I really want here.


@Tier - as to your original point. Let's say you're right. Let's say me not doing that is "messed up" in some manner.
How is it messed up in any way that matters?
Because, it's certainly not a scum plan.
So...what's the issue? The issue is that I'm not going back to find the name of a lurker I mistook as being Shiro? I mean, do you think that was an intentional misrep on my part? If so...weirdest scum plan ever. If not...then, as scum *or* town I could have made that mistake. So...yeah, what's your boggle?
In post 3219, Izariael wrote:Yes.
In post 3221, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3219, Izariael wrote:Yes.

Sweet - can you answer either of my questions to Muffin for him?

Show why he got that I had said quality over quantity?
Or show how it was reasonable for him to think that I meant "number of times a name was mentioned" as *any way sensible* as a means of measuring a metric of 'how much attention was paid a given slot'?

Since you agree with both, you clearly already understand both, yeah?
In post 3222, Thor665 wrote:
I'll even promise to answer Muffin's question to me in exchange for you answering for him.

Tier can also hop on this wagon - heck, if you answer first and Tier wants to sally in I'll even offer up a guess as to what Lurker I meant. It's an answer extravaganza!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notice that once again, while never once having provided answers, he now
suddenly wishes
to showcase them, but only if WE (the bystanders) answer to HIM (someone who has been debating this whole thing for PAGES now) first. Positively reeks of "please comment on this so I can latch onto YOUR comments to strawman this whole thing"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3223, Izariael wrote:Oh... sorry. I thought you said a simple yes or no response would suffice. I must have misunderstood.
In post 3224, TierShift wrote:@Tier - as to your original point. Let's say you're right. Let's say me not doing that is "messed up" in some manner.
How is it messed up in any way that matters?
Because, it's certainly not a scum plan.
So...what's the issue? The issue is that I'm not going back to find the name of a lurker I mistook as being Shiro? I mean, do you think that was an intentional misrep on my part? If so...weirdest scum plan ever. If not...then, as scum *or* town I could have made that mistake. So...yeah, what's your boggle?
In post 3226, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3223, Izariael wrote:Oh... sorry. I thought you said a simple yes or no response would suffice. I must have misunderstood.

It did suffice - I just thought you would be happy to cram answers into my face in order to help out the guy you agree with in getting the answers he claims to want/need.

No?


In post 3224, TierShift wrote:
In post 3218, Thor665 wrote:BOTH of you are totally happy with the way Muffin questioned this and how he skewed and turned wacky my statements?

The quotes provided are pretty objective.

I don't think much is wrong with his questioning and even if I did, the ends justify the means.

What?
No - I'm dead serious.
I NEVER indicated ANYTHING to qualify his quality over quantity complaint.

I am flat out calling that a lie.
if it's objective - prove me wrong.

Also, seriously - when I made my original statement about the amount of discussion of Pere v. Anen YOU thought I honestly meant "number of times each of their names shows up in his iso"?
You thought that?
You took that as my point?

In post 3224, TierShift wrote:The boggle is that you're avoiding to show who you were talking about, with it being asked multiple times and there not being a reason to withhold the information from us.

I actually never said I wouldn't. I just saw no value in doing so.
I still don't.


In post 3224, TierShift wrote:And now getting all defensive and asserting I said that messing two players up was a scum plan, which I never did.

You did indicate there was an issue with it - I am being "defensive" and trying to understand that issue.
Clearly if it's an issue it's worth explaining to me and getting my reaction to i - so you're getting that. Now explain the issue - and we all win.

In post 3224, TierShift wrote:Ehy is there such a big stick up your butthole?

Because I feel Muffin is talking like pure scumSmurf and that two lackwits are agreeing with him.

Why is there such uneasiness to answer direct questions from me?


I mean, you guys both chimed in....now look at your backup responses.

Look at Muffin's for frack's sake.
That doesn't look screwy to you? He's flat out doubletalking to me and apparently you don't even notice? That is messed up because either it means I'm insane and he's talking normal - or the three of you are some combo of scum/not reading lackwits.
I'd actually be happier with the "Thor is insane" concept - but I would like to think people could just describe my insanity back to me in clear language and stop just huffing and puffing emptily instead.
In post 3228, Izariael wrote:VOTE: Thor

Here's the extent of my answer, Thor.
In post 3230, goodmorning wrote:
@Thor: If you weren't talking about the number of times they were discussed and you weren't talking about the quality of Shiro's discussion of them then what the hell were you talking about? And why are you so reluctant to tell us who you mixed Shiro up with? These are the problems Muffin has with you and I don't see why it is so apparently difficult for you to understand that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
A newcomer arrives! :up: And she simplifies everything that has happened very concisely, I might add.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3232, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3228, Izariael wrote:VOTE: Thor

Here's the extent of my answer, Thor.

So - further emptiness and inability to discuss my devilishly difficult questions of "I think I never said the things you're saying I said"

Okay.
In post 3233, Izariael wrote:It's like your explanations to Muffin's questions in that regard, isn't it?
In post 3234, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3230, goodmorning wrote:@Thor: If you weren't talking about the number of times they were discussed and you weren't talking about the quality of Shiro's discussion of them then what the hell were you talking about?

...what?

What the sldjas;ofjsaojfoe;!

Okay, look, it is OBVIOUS that I was talking about the amount of the relative conversation about each person. i literally said as much.
That said, what Muffin did was to count the number of times a given name showed up. That doesn't take into account pronouns, and it *certainly* doesn't take into account the amount of time spent talking about either one.
Then he acted like ti did.

WHAT DO YOU THINK I MEANT?
And more importantly, do you think Muffin's approach remotely resembles sanity in asking me about it?

In post 3230, goodmorning wrote: And why are you so reluctant to tell us who you mixed Shiro up with? These are the problems Muffin has with you and I don't see why it is so apparently difficult for you to understand that.

I'm reluctant because;

1. I don't know off the top of my head and would need to do research.

2. I see no value in even having that info.

That's really it.
If someone could explain the value to me to justify the work I'd probably kvetch but would provide the answer. But...I really don't even get the issue.
These are *not* the problems Muffin has with me.
Look at what he's saying you narf.
In post 3235, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3233, Izariael wrote:It's like your explanations to Muffin's questions in that regard, isn't it?

I've offered to answer that if my questions are answered.
Frankly I've already answered his question he's just being dense about it.


Why not answer mine just to force me to answer yours?
I can't even get that promise from your side - are you offering it?[/size][/u][/b
In post 3236, Thor665 wrote:
@Iz - make me the offer, force me into the exchange of info. Call me on my bluff.
In post 3241, Izariael wrote:
In post 3236, Thor665 wrote:@Iz - make me the offer, force me into the exchange of info. Call me on my bluff.


I see no need to do so. I was merely an observer of the discussion at hand until I indicated that I liked Muffin's stance on it.
From my perspective, you were unable to refute Muffin's line of questioning, and are now resorting to pulling others into the discussion with the intent of straw-manning the entire accusation.
In post 3254, Muffin wrote:Holy shit Thor, are you really this dense or is it just an act?
In post 3202, Thor665 wrote:I made a statement about amount.

You translated that to "number of times a name is mentioned"
Your exact words were "look
how many
thoughts were posted about Anen". I interpreted that as "number of mentions". Obviously you felt that that is the wrong interpretation. Fine.

Then, when I point that out - you shift to "percentage of posts...but I'll just count posts where the name is mentioned and pay no attention to the amount that each is actually discussed"
I did not use the term "percentage". You pulled that out of your ass. I quoted every post in Shiro's ISO that I felt was about either Anen or Pere. If you have a problem with that, don't be so vague next time.

You know that's not what I meant and are dicking around.
That's your opinion. I am not a mind reader.

When I call you on THAT we go into this game where you claim I changed the goalposts to "quality".
Except I never did.
I exhausted every definition in my head for "how many thoughts were posted about a player". I see no other way to count "thoughts posted about" someone. You shot down the only two ways I could think of to quantify them. So what else should I have assumed but quality? You were the one that used the phrase "degree of mentions" as if that means anything concrete at all.

Here's how this works. You have two options and two only:

  1. Post your own list/comparison of the number of Shiro's thoughts posted about Anen vs. thoughts about Pere, since you seem to disagree so strongly with mine. It should be easy for you to do.

    or


  2. STFU
In post 3256, Muffin wrote:I'm happy to wait for you to post a list of posts.

But you can't do it, can you Thor? You'll just come back with faux-righteous indignation and dodge the question for the umpteenth time.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And now, ladies and gentlemen, we FINALLY GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT THE SCHOZZ THOR MEANT IN THE FIRST PLACE THAT HAS BEEN DEBATED FOR AGES.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3311, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3254, Muffin wrote:Holy shit Thor, are you really this dense or is it just an act?

I'm all natural baby.

In post 3254, Muffin wrote:Your exact words were "look
how many
thoughts were posted about Anen". I interpreted that as "number of mentions". Obviously you felt that that is the wrong interpretation. Fine.

Yes - because CLEARLY what that means is "number of times in an iso a name is mentioned.
That is the first and only metric for assessing how much someone is talked about.
Pronouns don't exist.
Amount of words don't exist.
This is brilliant!

In post 3254, Muffin wrote:I exhausted every definition in my head for "how many thoughts were posted about a player". I see no other way to count "thoughts posted about" someone. You shot down the only two ways I could think of to quantify them. So what else should I have assumed but quality? You were the one that used the phrase "degree of mentions" as if that means anything concrete at all.

So, because you exhausted "Iso" and "quoting stuff not about them and accusing me of how it didn't line up with what I said - and I responded by calling you a twit, clearly that meant I meant "quality"?

Why couldn't it just mean you were using idiot methods?
Like, seriously, when you quote a ost that is 75% talking about me and claim it shows a lot of Pere talk - what the heck am I supposed to say?
Wen you forget how pronouns work and act like it invalidates my case - what am I supposed to say?
And the pure logical presumption is to go "quality" after that?
I still don't see that - it's literally a BS sidestep for no reason.
I might as well claim that you are now making a point on the amount of times I mentioned Shiro's name - it is blatant that you are not but since you...what, don't understand or agree with what I'm saying clearly you mean this utterly different thing that you have never mentioned, yes!

In post 3254, Muffin wrote:
  1. Post your own list/comparison of the number of Shiro's thoughts posted about Anen vs. thoughts about Pere, since you seem to disagree so strongly with mine. It should be easy for you to do.

    or


  2. STFU

Ohhh, how about I go with - Muffin is terribad at reading and talking.

No, how about I do #1 and then YOU back up this idiocy some more.

Because you still haven't explained tyhat quality thing AT ALL.
Nor have you justified to my mind that number of times a name is mentioned REMOTELY shows how much someone was talked about. Did you even read Shiro's posts?

Here's my stuff;

First off - let's rebut "name mentions" I give you Post #2434 or 2436 - those are is a posts ENTIRELY ABOUT ANEN THAT YOU NEVER QUOTED
That is because it uses the mystical and magical creation known as "a pronoun".
THIS SHOWS YOU NEVER READ ANYTHING AND JUST WERE TRYING TO DISPROVE ME ON EMPTY BLATHER.
And then acted shocked that I found your work shoddy and misrepresentative of what I was saying.
Then became unable to talk about it with me other than to whine in my face whenever I tried to talk to you and repeat you poor work as though it meant something - when you should have realized you'd done shoddy and skimmy work.

Whassup - Smurf-face?

Second off - "quality" - I never said it, I just kept calling your methods dumb and badly done, and noting why they were. You then whined and straw manned me. This showed that you didn't care about gak in finding out what I meant, it just showed an urge to attack.

Whassup?

Also, let's talk about quantity (or, apparently quality - it is the *only* thing Thor could possibly have meant)

*SNIP OF THE SPOILER TAB - IT WAS RUINING MY POST FORMATTING*
Above the line is commentary on Pere.
Below is commentary on Anen.
167 words vs. 363.

Oh...look...quantity wise he talked about Anen a lot and not so much about Pere.

Also, if you note, everything he said about Pere was "not scum" and then he voted him. I wonder why Thor would ever take that as uncool.
Quantity.



Yo, Muffin, back up your gak more - because I'm not unvoting you, because you're still talking like scum.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
OF COUUUURRRRSSSSEEE, I GET IT NOW! WORDS! HE WAS TALKING ABOUT WORDS! THE NUMBER OF WORDS! HOW DID WE NOT UNDERSTAND THIS WITH OUR FEEBLE BRAINS!? BECAUSE IT WAS REALLY SO HARD TO DO THIS EARLIER IN THE DAY RIGHT? BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! NOW IT'S TIME TO STRAWMAN, BECAUSE THE ONLOOKERS CHOSE TO DIP THEIR NOSES TOO FAR IN AND THE THORSCUM HAS A REALLY LONG REACH WITH HIS STRAWMAN CLAWS

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 3312, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3277, TierShift wrote:Look, thor.
You made the statement about there being many more anen mentions than pere mentions. Muffin tried to show there weren't. You just said he was doing it wrong and you said he was twisting your words. You also suggested there were more anen posts than muffin showed due to pronouns.

Instead, you could just show that there were more anen mentions than pere mentions.

Or any of you could look and develop your own read before sheeping Muffin's wall of derp?
Why do you sheep his wall of derp and act like I'm crazy? What steered *that* decision? Two people disagreed and both suggested the other sucked - why/how did you make your value call that he was talking sweet truth and I was not?
Because my info was already out there as much as his.


In post 3277, TierShift wrote:But now I did a shiro ISO and found that there is about 1 post more on anen (than on pere), in which she calls him scum. In the following post already, she says she was probably wrong. Your previous suggestion that there were more posts because of pronouns is simply wrong.

No - it is not. You are agreeing with me about quantity - even using small posts vs. big ones.
So...
Also, remember that Muffins's data *didn't* show that? He didn't show what you're now saying? Wonder why that is and wonder why Thor might call him out on that data?


In post 3277, TierShift wrote:I don't understand why you're just telling other people that they're wrong when they're trying to understand your arguments, instead of explaining/correcting them?

Because no one is actually trying to understand the arguement.
They instead are screeching that I'm scummy for not saying something...while ignoring I'm being misrepped blatantly.


In post 3283, Shiro wrote:Soo you are saying the fact that I had more relative conversations about Anen(specificaly with Axl) that made me view him in a better light thus conclude that Pere is the better wagon at the time scummy.....

How?

You voted a town read off deadline while not justifying the action while unvoting a mild not scum/town read while very much justifying the action.
In post 3293, Izariael wrote:I think there were several votes on there that were far scummier than a replacement player voting into a deadline lynch.

Cool.
Who?

In post 3303, TierShift wrote:I've never played with thor before. But you're saying his town MO is discrediting people who are right?

I'm pretty sure we have played before.

In post 3303, TierShift wrote:You made the statement about there being many more anen mentions than pere mentions. Muffin tried to show there weren't. You just said he was doing it wrong and you said he was twisting your words

Talk to me about how he tried to show this.
Discuss your thoughts about his method and manner.


In post 3303, TierShift wrote:Yes, I do not understand why THOR is reluctant to share the factual basis of his argument. THOR should share that. I'm attacking him for not doing that.

I shared it before you ever wrote this.
Also, this is silly.
In post 3327, Muffin wrote:
In post 3311, Thor665 wrote:First off - let's rebut "name mentions" I give you Post #2434 or 2436

Awww our little Thor is making progress! He's still throwing a temper tantrum but he's at least doing what he should have done many pages ago!

Okay so that brings it to, what, something like 5 anen posts and 3 pere posts? That's great and all but you haven't addressed what I perceive to be a clear progression of reads. Voting a townread D1 at deadline is not as scummy as you're trying to paint it to be. Nobody knows anything D1.

You've done nothing to dissuade me from the conclusion that you're just trying to bully town into mislynching a newbie.
In post 3328, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3326, Shiro wrote:......really? I was under the impression you had to if necessarry cause you need the flips info in order to see how people handled said person

So you intentionally voted a town read in order to verify he was a townread via lynch?

In post 3327, Muffin wrote:Awww our little Thor is making progress! He's still throwing a temper tantrum but he's at least doing what he should have done many pages ago!

I did do it pages ago, you just got *really* weird about translating what I said and induced uncertainty into the conversation.
I said he talked about one more than the other - he did.
You then, for some reason, needed me to prove something that was obvious.
Shock.


In post 3327, Muffin wrote:Okay so that brings it to, what, something like 5 anen posts and 3 pere posts?

Okay? Sure.
That changes nothing and is not applicable to what I said. But, sure.

In post 3327, Muffin wrote:That's great and all but you haven't addressed what I perceive to be a clear progression of reads. Voting a townread D1 at deadline is not as scummy as you're trying to paint it to be. Nobody knows anything D1.

Voting a town read is exactly as scummy as I am painting it to be - and this is definitely an odd shift from you from the "Thor is changing goalposts" gabble you were raising hell about mere seconds ago.
I don't care if you like his progression of reads - what I care about is your intentional misrep and playing dumb dance routine and how scummy and terrible it was
.

In post 3327, Muffin wrote:You've done nothing to dissuade me from the conclusion that you're just trying to bully town into mislynching a newbie.

Yesterday I bullied town into lynching a 'not Newbie'.
So...yeah...what is your theory here? That Thor is desperate to pick on Newbies?
Riiiiiiight.

Explain again your logical presumption about number of times a name is mentioned (while not reading enough to understand pronouns exit) and also that quality/quantity thing.
Your case is a joke.
It was pushed on misrep and derp.
Defend it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
.....and then Muffin got mod-killed. For reasons.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the rest I'm too tired to go over. Honestly, if anyone townreads Thor for any of this crap he pulled, then I'm kind of done. :facepalm:
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Post Post #3701 (isolation #136) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:45 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3699, TierShift wrote:Right, but Thor's now just being awkward for no reason at all, while yesterday he needed to be so to get pere lynched.

The situations really don't match up. I know scum that bullheadedly push something to get a lynch through and I know scum that are awkward in general, but they do not overlap. You can't really be scum for both.


How is/was Thor being awkward for no reason at all Day 2? His awkwardness was due to being caught out on a flimsy scumread and failing to back it up. It took him over 10 pages to finally go "hey, here's what I *actually* meant!" - I can't see a townie letting a misunderstanding progress for so long while making
no proactive attempt to clarify
. Thor was completely on the reactive side of his exchange with Muffin. There was zero proactivity, and I just don't see how town feeling misunderstood would be content to allow the supposed "misrep" to continue for so long without presenting the factual evidence to support or clarify their statement.
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Post Post #3703 (isolation #137) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:52 pm

Post by Izariael »

Yeah, every time I added spoiler tags the formatting of everything changed to light blue, superscript font. Couldn't figure out why, so I stopped trying to add them in.
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Post Post #3704 (isolation #138) » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:52 pm

Post by Izariael »

Even the existing spoiler tags within the quotes weren't working properly.
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Post Post #3714 (isolation #139) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:28 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3708, Slandaar wrote:Iz; both town and scum would not want to get the argument on Shiro wrong so there is nothing in it. The quantity argument is bad as clearly name mentions has nothing to do with how much someone talks about someone else and what Thor said does stand up to this. I literally showed this.

I see you managed to spend all this time posting a lovely huge wall instead of showing these scummier votes than Shiros though.

. The scumreads are votes that I found to be scummier than Shiro's. I didn't like their votes on day 1, and I don't like their votes now.

You've clearly missed the entire point of the issue if you think
Thor's factual accuracy
is what I have issue with. Yes, his stumbling over getting his story straight led to the events at hand, but the accuracy of the statement has no bearing on his reluctance to clarify and his insistence of making others bring the harvest to him when he's sowed no seeds. Thor is a clever player. I'm sure that he will make the facts work for him regardless of his alignment, and so I don't think factual accuracy is a strong scum measure for Thor. Nor on anyone really. Being wrong doesn't make you scum. I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I was scumreading him for being factually incorrect, but no. That's not what it's based on.

To simplify it down to the word of the week, it would be tone. Pulling what was relatively basic information out of him took far more effort and time than it should have, and he rested on his laurels instead of proactively clearing up the misinterpretation of his statements. Then he played the victim the entire time, and painted Muffin as moronic and "derpy". It just sits wayyyy off from where I see town sitting.
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Post Post #3715 (isolation #140) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:30 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3713, Slandaar wrote:The incredibly short version: You never made it clear why you voted PV over Anen.


She made it perfectly clear why she voted PV over Anen. What she didn't make clear is why she voted PV over Thor.
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Post Post #3718 (isolation #141) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:34 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3714, Izariael wrote:. The scumreads are votes that I found to be scummier than Shiro's. I didn't like their votes on day 1, and I don't like their
(Day 1)
votes now.

EBWOP for clarity.
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Post Post #3719 (isolation #142) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:37 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3716, Slandaar wrote:So, ALL of your scumreads are because you didn't like their votes on PV?

:]


Sure, they share that characteristic in common. Is that the sole reason why I think they're scum? No.
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Post Post #3721 (isolation #143) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:44 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3717, Slandaar wrote:
In post 3715, Izariael wrote:She made it perfectly clear why she voted PV over Anen.

What was this reason then?



Also, Pere's wagon hadn't had any votes on it for quite some time when Shiro voted, then suddenly T S O, Garmr, Axle, Muffin, Boonskiies (and you yourself though not official) voted him in quick succession. How is Shiro the scum setting up mislynch in this scenario?
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Post Post #3733 (isolation #144) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:43 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3720, Slandaar wrote:I worded that badly I knew it wasn't the sole reason, still, all your scumreads voted PV. It's quite an easy way to play - accuse those who voted the mislynch.

Thor's vote being scummy is because? I shall look into the others votes later.


Thor vote is scummy for never being re-evaluated. I think that there should have been a shift in the dynamic between Thor and Peregrine after the 500-600 post mark, where it became clear that they were both pushing reads about two very distinct and different ideas. I didn't see that from Thor. I did, however, see it somewhat from Pere (though FAR FAR later than it should have been, imo... ). Pere was interested in pushing for Scripten lynch, but there was never enough traction to build the wagon.

Fun note: I enjoyed this fun tidbit that Thor used against Pere. I didn't think anything of it then, but it now seems incredibly a propos given how he defended himself against Muffin:

In post 605, Thor665 wrote:So I should add 'lying to butter up a case' to your scumtells then :lol:
You're trying to defend yourself in a pedantic manner.
It looks scummy to me.


Thor also brought meta into the PeregrineV read with and , saying that it suggested AGAINST Town!Peregrine, despite me saying earlier in the day that I had just recently played with Town!Peregrine and was seeing similarities to his play there:
In post 595, Izariael wrote:PeregrineV's sheep on my vote was unexpected and unusual, but it's kind of the only red flag I've seen from him. PeregrineV's play here seems consistent with what I've seen from Town!Peregrine, so I don't really have a scum read on his slot at this time. I think Peregrine has a tendency to appear pretty scummy as town, so my past experience with him has me trying to look past my initial misgivings of his play and look for alternative motivations that could come from town. I'm still undecided on how I feel about him, but it's definitely not a "he must be scum" feeling.

I brought up the meta thing again in my post, because it was what little I could contribute to trying to derail Pere wagon. I was having wicked-ass internet and power failures through from post 800-ish through to the end of Day 1.
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Post Post #3734 (isolation #145) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:48 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3732, Slandaar wrote:Shiro votes PV not because of Thor's reply but because Anen is town. Doesn't make any sense.


There were (arguably) two other wagons besides Anen with enough traction to make a lynch possible: Pere and Thor. She chose Pere. I figured this is because she kept saying the Thor wagon was horrible and because
she townread Thor more than she townread Pere
, as suggested by and . It makes sense to me still in that respect when I look at it.
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Post Post #3788 (isolation #146) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:11 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3301, Slandaar wrote:
In post 3294, Izariael wrote:Should she have instead separated herself from the major wagons and voted for someone else entirely in a manner that would have no impact on the final result beyond pushing us closer to no-lynch?

No, I am not saying this. It's how he did it. If he had said 'Well I think they are both town so don't care which is lynched PV is larger wagon vote:PV' that would be fine but he didn't.

@Thor:
what are your thoughts pon this statement by Slandaar? He was in immediate support of your scumread on Shiro's vote, yet suggests votimg for a townread as a valid play provided the reason stated is sufficient. How does it read to you?
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Post Post #3789 (isolation #147) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:11 pm

Post by Izariael »

Ugh, phone typos. I thought I got all of them.
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Post Post #3790 (isolation #148) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:15 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3718, Izariael wrote:
In post 3714, Izariael wrote:. The scumreads are votes that I found to be scummier than Shiro's. I didn't like their votes on day 1, and I don't like their
(Day 1)
votes now.

EBWOP for clarity.


@Slandaar: I would add TSO's Pere votes (I'm pretty sure he voted Pere twice... the first was horrible and the second wasn't great but passable as compromise lynch. I would also have found Egg's vote scummy today had he not died/flipped town.
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Post Post #3794 (isolation #149) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:10 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3792, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3788, Izariael wrote:
@Thor:
what are your thoughts pon this statement by Slandaar? He was in immediate support of your scumread on Shiro's vote, yet suggests votimg for a townread as a valid play provided the reason stated is sufficient. How does it read to you?

I will admit I do not fully track this question. I'm going to answer a couple and hopefully that will answer yours.

1. If Shiro had offered reasoning for voting Pere would you have found her vote objectionable?
2. Would you have found it less objectionable?
3. Do you find hypocrisy/contradiction in Slandaar's statement (which is sort of what I think you're asking...but it's really weirdly stated if so)

------------

1. Yes. Voting a town read is screwy - period.
2. Yes. I find it to be terrible play but am uncomfortably aware that some people consider it okay for reasons...that escape me.
3. No, since I can also hold the belief that the vote would have been less screwy if it had been discussed more I do not find it unusual that Slandaar appears to share this thought, which from what I'm reading of him appears to be what he's saying.

I think you're close to answering my question, though it wasn't really any of those three. Insightful nonetheless.

I'm mostly curious about #2. It just seems strange that you seem to be scumreading Shiro, who evidently DOES buy into the idea of voting a lesser townread to avoid no-lynch, and yet are not calling out another player who is suggesting that that same idea would be viable with slightly different execution.

Also, why do you find Shiro's vote scum-motivated if you are fully aware that townies may be in support of avoiding no-lynch by any means necessary (such as voting a townread/nullread)?
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Post Post #3810 (isolation #150) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:36 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3796, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3794, Izariael wrote:I'm mostly curious about #2. It just seems strange that you seem to be scumreading Shiro, who evidently DOES buy into the idea of voting a lesser townread to avoid no-lynch, and yet are not calling out another player who is suggesting that that same idea would be viable with slightly different execution.

Oh, was it a lesser town read now? That's info Siro never clarified.
I'll agree that makes sense to presume but...I think you're starting to notice part of the issue.


If you have been asked/answered this or other questions previously, then I wasn't able to find the posts while on my phone at work. Linking the post would work fine if you feel you've answered a question to your satisfaction earlier already, then I can re-evaluate my question as necessary.

Anyways, moving right along. I do think Shiro made it clear that she townread you more than Pere throughout the day from the time of her replacement up until her final vote of the day, which is why I see the Pere vote as an understandable progression.
In post 2420, Shiro wrote:Both Pere and Thor lynch seems bad to me.

Thors lynch I just cannot see it.
Par a small part where he wasn't all that active I cannot see as scum at all like. Why does that wagon exist ?He was the only one trying to get town to do anythimg early on and kept it up. There has been some back and forth but still. Is that me being too newbie to see something here :/

Pere is honestly the same but less regard.
He is only off when talking with Thor but most people that argued with thor ended up seeming off after it is that a thing ? I did notice he has a knack for winning argument. The fact that most people on pere wagoon have little reason of their own and just follow thor is off by itself . Especially earlier. Liek using Thor abbility to push well to further a lynch. He pretyt much hold his own when talking to others about the case.


Her reads as a player asking one townread (you) to reconsider their opinion on another townread (Pere), referencing the 500-600 post mark (indirectly) as a point of the game that she felt should have changed the dynamic between you two that instead remained static (which I agree with entirely, as mentioned previously)

And her final post of the day with her Pere vote again re-stated that she felt the wagon on you was horrible as she did in her opening posts, which is still in line with townreading you more than Pere.
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Post Post #3820 (isolation #151) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:36 am

Post by Izariael »

Yes, because I have claimed to have solved the game and pegged every single scum.... lol

I don't doubt I'm wrong on one of my scumreads. I think it's a bit preposterous to think that I was claiming as much. You asked whose votes I found scummier than Shiro's, I gave an answer. Scumreads on the players in question took place prior to, at the time of and after their votes. Having a Pere vote in common *is* a coincidence. Given that 12 people were on the wagon, I don't see why you find it unfeasible to be a coincidence.
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Post Post #3823 (isolation #152) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:04 am

Post by Izariael »

So you feel that there's no natural progression to my scumreads because they have a characteristic in common, that they also share with 8 other people. Is that what you're attempting to illustrate with this?
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Post Post #3824 (isolation #153) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:20 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3821, Slandaar wrote:I might be mistaken but I do not remember you defending Peregrine yesterday from what you view as a wagon full of scum.

In post 595, Izariael wrote:
PeregrineV's sheep on my vote was unexpected and unusual, but it's kind of the only red flag I've seen from him. PeregrineV's play here seems consistent with what I've seen from Town!Peregrine, so I don't really have a scum read on his slot at this time. I think Peregrine has a tendency to appear pretty scummy as town, so my past experience with him has me trying to look past my initial misgivings of his play and look for alternative motivations that could come from town. I'm still undecided on how I feel about him, but it's definitely not a "he must be scum" feeling.

:up: this was in a post directed at Scripten regarding his intent to sheep Thor's vote.
In post 1569, Izariael wrote:
For what it's worth, as of page 50 I still think the PeregrineV wagon is lame and should be looking for a new target to pressure. Peregrine's behavior is identical to his town play from my previous game with him, to the point where I can pretty much predict what he's gonna say before I even read his posts. Pretty strong town vibes there, so unless something changes in the remaining 13 pages he's a will-not-vote from me.

:up: this was while catching up from a series of internet and power outages and noticing that Pere wagon was picking up speed.
In post 1875, Izariael wrote:
Peregrine vs. Thor is causing my brain to implode on itself from boredom. Both are guilty of creating equal parts intensity and apathy in this game, which is equal parts intriguing and frustrating. However, having played with town-Peregrine very recently, his posting style and the arguments he's been making fall in line with what I am expecting from town-Peregrine. Unless someone is wanting/able to show that he plays his town and scum games identically, then his behavior here has me reading him as town...

I think I need to ISO Thor once I'm caught up fully, because reading his posts right now is like listening to the teacher from Peanuts. The only thing I've managed to retain from his spiels is that he's townreading all of the people on the Pere wagon... and some comment about how the people he's townreading haven't been wagoned. Or something. Yeah, I'll probably find something later to jog my memory. It's on one of these tabs I'm sure. Bottom line is: I think he's a much better lynch than Peregrine, whom I have deemed to be a mislynch.

Aneninen looks a little suspicious. Fonz feels like scum to me.

VOTE: Thor665

:up: this was while *still* catching up (I never did catch up fully until Night 1) and when I voted Thor to attempt to counter Pere lynch. It also illustrates my scumread on Fonz at the time (his entrance and vote were part of it. I didn't like his vote even prior to Pere's flip)

____________________________________

Sooo.... yeah. My Day 1 didn't go as intended. Pere got lynched. It seemed strangely inevitable. I would have ppreferred to see a number of lynches besides my top townread.
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Post Post #3825 (isolation #154) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:34 am

Post by Izariael »

First of all, the context of our discussion earlier involved votes on the Pere wagon, not all voting overall, so I don't find this representative of my current view of the game.

Second, if you're going to attempt to call my reads un-natural because of a perceived block, at least use the final vote count rather than using one that you think illustrates your point best.

In post 2551, Aegor wrote:
Votecount 1.FINAL


:right: [12]PeregrineV:
Egg
,
Thor665, Scripten, The Fonz,
davesaz, TierShift, Shiro,
T S O
, Garmr, AxleGreaser, Muffin,
Boonskiies
-- LYNCH

Third, I haven't forgotten that you tried to get on the wagon alongside Boonskiies as well at the very end, which I also found scummy AF, regardless of how you tried to play it off as a joke. However as it was not officially counted as a vote I did not include it in our discussion of votes on Pere's wagon.
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Post Post #3829 (isolation #155) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:42 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3828, Slandaar wrote:Why if I were scum would I try to get on a lynch on town which 100% is happening and I have defended them all game?

Clearly that was a joke.


There is so much WIFOM in that joke that I can't dismiss it as one.
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Post Post #3830 (isolation #156) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:44 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3827, Slandaar wrote:Which is why we ignore half the votes on the wagon and use a previous VC.


That is not reflective of how *I* evaluated the votes, and therefore fails to adequately represent my views to do so.
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Post Post #3831 (isolation #157) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:46 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3830, Izariael wrote:
In post 3827, Slandaar wrote:Which is why we ignore half the votes on the wagon and use a previous VC.


That is not reflective of how *I* evaluated the votes, and therefore fails to adequately represent my views to do so.


For example, it was not Boonskiies first Pere vote that I scumread, but rather his second where he went several posts prod dodging then hammered Pere with a naked vote. I found it unsavory.
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Post Post #3833 (isolation #158) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:08 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3832, Slandaar wrote:Seems backwards. Either I was joking as town or joking as scum so WIFOM can't dismiss?


Or you weren't joking. There lies the WIFOM.
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Post Post #3834 (isolation #159) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:13 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3832, Slandaar wrote:The latter votes have minimal reasoning to none so there is very little assessment to be made on whether they were scummy or not. Basically what looks fake is; your scumreads are the people who voted PV with reasoning before deadline.


And yet you're scumreading Shiro's vote, while saying that her vote is irrelevant to my observations of the Pere wagon. Clearly, the amount of reasoning attached to a vote does not determine whether a vote can be evaluated.
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Post Post #3857 (isolation #160) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:05 am

Post by Izariael »

I'm not entirely opposed to this idea. My only hesitation to it is that I sincerely doubt a beastcharizard lynch would reveal anything about the bigger picture. We would just have his flip and not much else to go off. Seems minimally-informative given the chronic lurkiness of the slot...
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Post Post #3860 (isolation #161) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:27 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3257, Izariael wrote:Does anyone have thoughts on beastcharizard/hephaestus slot? Is it alignment-indicative for either player to be so lurky?


May as well ask again since I don't recall being answered previously. I scumread the excessive lurkiness of the slot, but recall seeing a comment that hephaestus was expected to lurk as it is typical of his play that has given me pause. Will attempt to find it after work if no one cares to step forward w/the statement.
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Post Post #3861 (isolation #162) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:27 am

Post by Izariael »

Comment in question came on Day 1, FTR
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Post Post #3862 (isolation #163) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:31 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 3858, Thor665 wrote:That's bull-hooey - you'd also have his wagon to analyze and who joined or didn't.


I don't think voting a Hephaestus wagon would be as alignment-indicative as voting a more active player's wagon, and would therefore not be as informative. You are welcome to disagree, but my stance on this is not likely to change.
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Post Post #3864 (isolation #164) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:38 am

Post by Izariael »

...Hence why I'm scumreading the slot?
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Post Post #3866 (isolation #165) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:47 am

Post by Izariael »

Gotta go to work, but I will get back to this later
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Post Post #3884 (isolation #166) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:52 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3871, AxleGreaser wrote:*snipped for brevity - spoiler tags don't like my phone apparently.*

and even though it is not the final one, your reads indicate you are counting that as credible.

@Iz
please explain how credible you find it that your scum reads all clumped like that at any time during the day.


I find the semblance of a vote cluster to be completely irrelevant to how I got to those reads. I'm sure that if we were to take scumreads from every single person and colour which votes they found scummy that we could pair it up with a vote count at some point in time that makes it seem odd and/or unnatural. It completely misrepresents what I've observed in this game and seems a very blatant attempt to discredit those reads. Why has Slandaar only presented this evaluation on my reads only?

Furthermore, the semblance of a voting bloc
does not negate
any of those players from being scum, because
I am not making any assumptions about whether scum would or would not vote in unison.
I think that is a dangerous assumption to make and has zero impact on my reads.

I also don't scumread or townread players based on other players' votes.
I don't look at two players voting for the same person and say "hey, I found player B's vote scummy so player A is town" So while it is coincidental that at one point in time I found many of the votes on Pere to be scummy votes, it is just that: a coincidence. I have observed, questioned and interacted with players, making note of what I've found towny and what I've found scummy. Where their vote sits on a wagon is not important. How/Why it got on the wagon is.
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Post Post #3887 (isolation #167) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:09 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 3886, AxleGreaser wrote:So much of the scum team being committed to the PereV wagon, all near the front, seems like thing I have observed scum to habitually avoid.
Have you seen it happen before much?


I have not in my experience here on mafiascum, but I do not find it enough of an impossibility as to discount it completely. Perhaps it would be effective to do so *because* it is so seldom seen (if ever?)
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Post Post #3891 (isolation #168) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:30 pm

Post by Izariael »

Again though, I don't recall having claimed that I was 100% certain that those players were scum, lynch them all to win.

The cool thing about reads: they can evolve and adapt as events transpire. Up to the point that I posted that list, those were the players whose behavior I had found scummiest. Perhaps all of them are town, or conversely, all of them are scum. I don't have those answers at this time. All I have said is that those players were topping my list for scum at that time.
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Post Post #3892 (isolation #169) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:36 pm

Post by Izariael »

This whole point about my read list is looking like "well surely at least one of those reads must be wrong, so you're faking it" which seems very silly to me. If that's the case, then anyone who scumread Pere yesterday must have been faking it because one of their reada was clearly wrong. Or anyone scumreading Egg, Muffin or Aneninen. We should quickly tarnish their credibility for having an incorrect read on their readlist.
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Post Post #3906 (isolation #170) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:03 pm

Post by Izariael »

I feel a need to ask: why replace
into
a large game if you have a course load that prevents you from ever catching up? Seems a bit unfair to Aegor and to other players.
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Post Post #3926 (isolation #171) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:04 pm

Post by Izariael »

I think I'm in agreement with Dave on this one, if I'm reading this exchange correctly... the two points (Anen halted my pressure on Boon) and (my points still stand because Anen did not successfully refute them) are not mutually-exclusive. If Garmr was trying to pressure Boon, then their interaction would have had a certain dynamic. If Garmr felt that dynamic change once Aneninen interrupted (much like I'm doing now on this exchange here...) then Garmr may have felt that the interruption was a hindrance to what he was tryng to accomplish and that Aneninen had intentionally done so because of scum motivations. The dynamic changed because a third party interjected, regardless of whether the points Anen brought to the conversation successfully refuted Garmr's or not.
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Post Post #3927 (isolation #172) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:06 pm

Post by Izariael »

So Garmr felt that Anen did NOT successfully refute his points, but also felt that his interjection had affected the dynamic of his interaction with Boon in a manner that was either negative or counter-productive to what he was aiming to accomplish.
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Post Post #3930 (isolation #173) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:28 pm

Post by Izariael »

So what you're saying is that you don't think I've successfully refuted your points.
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Post Post #3933 (isolation #174) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:56 pm

Post by Izariael »

Probably not but I wouldn't expect to. You're Axle.
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Post Post #3934 (isolation #175) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:59 pm

Post by Izariael »

Interestingly enough though, your most recent series of posts have been directed at me and not at Dave though. Perhaps I stopped the pressure/momentum on dave slot? He would be the appropriate slot for this analogy anyways. (You=Garmr, dave=Boon, Iz=Anen)
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Post Post #4041 (isolation #176) » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:48 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 4033, davesaz wrote:Thor, as a result of my epiphany, I was
really
expecting a different kind of answer.
If you really have no confidence that GM is scum, then kindly pick someone who is actually scummy instead of useless.
Staying on a no confidence and no reason wagon leads me to believe your "power role" is non-town. That impression can still be fixed.


Are you saying your gm vote was a reaction test? Or was it genuine?
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Post Post #4056 (isolation #177) » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:17 pm

Post by Izariael »

Pretty much what I'm seeing is that there are exactly zero persons in this game with enough consensus to lynch... which isn't cool. There's gonna have to be a change somewhere, because that vote count is dismal.
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Post Post #4058 (isolation #178) » Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:49 pm

Post by Izariael »

I was thinking along the same lines, because if a compromise wasn't necessary there would have been a lynch by now I think. I've determined the following:

Most preferred

Thor
Scripten
Slandaar
beastcharizard
Boonskiies
Fonz
Less preferred


Not feeling inclined to vote anyone else at this time.
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Post Post #4099 (isolation #179) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:48 am

Post by Izariael »

I'm removing Fonz from my lynch pool... I'm actually enjoying the brain morsels he's served us to gnaw on.
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Post Post #4104 (isolation #180) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:04 am

Post by Izariael »

In post 4103, Shiro wrote:
In post 4097, The Fonz wrote:Hey, SHIRO -you're on a vanity wagon yet active. Rank in terms of lynch desirability:

Thor
Flub
Josh

Thanks.


Wait weren't you townreading Thor a few moment ago ???

He is now your top canditate for a lynch ?


I believe he's asking you to rank the top three in terms of which you'd be most willing to support lynch-wise:
In post 4048, Aegor wrote:[5]
Thor665
: goodmorning, Izariael, reinoe, Flubbernugget, davesaz
[3]
Josh_B
: Scripten, AxleGreaser, Slandaar
[2]
Flubbernugget
: Nero Cain, The Fonz


I don't think this was a comment on his own lynch preferences at this time.
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Post Post #4123 (isolation #181) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:57 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 4122, Boonskiies wrote:Lynch Iz if we come down to deadline. Just humor me. Poor favors...please.


VOTE: Iz


*slow clap* You're really dragging this out, aren't you Boon? This is the same crap you did yesterday where you lurked for ages then made a shitty naked vote.

Given that 150% of your supposed scumhunting was garnering reactions to your claim on Day/Night 1, and now that you've full-claimed as 2-Shot Bulletproof Town Neighbor, what exactly are your plans for scum-hunting? Where do you plan to go from here?
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Post Post #4128 (isolation #182) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:31 pm

Post by Izariael »

Boon, as far as I can recall, your case on me was:

[*]

[*]

[*] (also see and )

As was already hashed out earlier in Day 2, your case on me was utter bullocks where you changed the story multiple times to pin SOMETHING on me. You didn't care what it was, but I was guilty of SOMETHING. I don't think you have scumhunted truthfully or effectively, and certainly
not at all
since your full-claim, so thank goodness everyone seems content to let you sit on your laurels and throw vanity votes around and call you town for it. Because you're 2-shot bulletproof. Thanks for being so helpful to town! I'm going to have a really hard time being scum now that you've claimed this role... Gee darn. :roll:

I mean, if you have anything new to add to your case against me, then out with it. By all means, tell us how you came to startling epiphanies and clarity about my scumminess while you were away.
Image

Otherwise, move your vote onto one of the wagons that has a chance to reach majority today. You know, like you did yesterday.
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Post Post #4140 (isolation #184) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:39 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 4135, Boonskiies wrote:Give me some more WIFOM, Izzy.

This is not an adequate answer to what I feel is a valid question:
In post 4123, Izariael wrote:Given that 150% of your supposed scumhunting was garnering reactions to your claim on Day/Night 1, and now that you've full-claimed as 2-Shot Bulletproof Town Neighbor, what exactly are your plans for scum-hunting? Where do you plan to go from here?
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Post Post #4148 (isolation #185) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:41 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 4140, Izariael wrote:
In post 4135, Boonskiies wrote:Give me some more WIFOM, Izzy.

This is not an adequate answer to what I feel is a valid question:
In post 4123, Izariael wrote:Given that 150% of your supposed scumhunting was garnering reactions to your claim on Day/Night 1, and now that you've full-claimed as 2-Shot Bulletproof Town Neighbor, what exactly are your plans for scum-hunting? Where do you plan to go from here?
In post 4141, Boonskiies wrote:Scum question. I plan to get to Lylo on this, because everything I said makes sense. I got to the point that I wasn't going to be NK'd for the sheer fact I'd always be an easy mislynch. Also, who know? Maybe I was shot and there could be 3 kills a night.


Can someone else ask this question to Boon? He's acting like a belligerent child and just going "OH IZZY SPOKE. SCUM QUESTION. NOT GONNA ANSWER IT. SCUM COMMENT. NOT GONNA REPLY TO IT. SCUM SCUM SCUM." rather than answering the question.

Is my question silly? Because I really don't think Boon is doing or has done a lick of scumhunting this game beyond whatever ineffective reaction testing he was doing with his claim. Am I just not seeing Boon's brilliance? Because I'm legit trying to ask him what his plan is moving forward with scumhunting now that his only scumhunting tool is now moot.
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Post Post #4149 (isolation #186) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:08 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 4146, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 4141, Boonskiies wrote:I plan to get to Lylo on this, because everything I said makes sense.


Scum have to get past lylo to win.
Why if you are town are you planning that town will ever be at lylo
?
It may all make sense to you. Maybe not to everyone else though.

Boon play the game not just your purposeful VI meta.


I really like the thought process of this post. Axle may be noisy in thread, but gems like this give me the impression that he isn't scum.
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Post Post #4152 (isolation #187) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:31 pm

Post by Izariael »

Derp town or not, it's still better than anti-town, so yeah, I'll take it.
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Post Post #4155 (isolation #188) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:12 pm

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I fail to see why people could be townreading him, unless it's his meta to lurk incessantly and tunnel blindly, but that's about the extent of my interest in him at this point. I just find it rather amusing that he lurks for days, then comes back to offer nothing new and another vanity vote that will achieve very little, if anything, then completely shuts down any attempts to engage him on it.

I'm really not understanding your point about fussing. I asked a question. He evaded it twice, so I continued to ask for a proper answer. If that's fussing, then damn do we have a lot of fussiness in this game, and every game ever.
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Post Post #4184 (isolation #189) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:13 am

Post by Izariael »

Now THIS is the reinoe I was expecting. I'm legitimately amused.
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Post Post #4309 (isolation #190) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:00 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 4290, T S O wrote:I would be up for a Nero Cain lynch on policy basis alone.

Not sure about Boon though.

What changed from earlier?
In post 2979, T S O wrote:It's disturbing how much I like Nero this game.
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Post Post #4311 (isolation #191) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:02 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 4302, The Fonz wrote:
In post 4298, Boonskiies wrote:Look at Nero actively avoiding everything anyone is putting against him. He's the lynch for today, people. It is NOT a random lynch. Fonz is probably his buddy trying to save Nero by going after me instead of drawing focus on Nero.


So, seriously, who's up for putting up with this kind of 'analysis' every day until deadline? Lynch him now, or forever hold your peace!

(If Boon survives today, I will not be voting for him later on barring the aforementioned awesome case).


Omg Fonz for town mayor. I support this message.
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Post Post #4316 (isolation #192) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:07 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 4298, Boonskiies wrote:
Look at Nero actively avoiding everything anyone is putting against him.
He's the lynch for today, people. It is NOT a random lynch.


Boon is really putting on a show about scumhunting himself. Because I don't see Nero doing this, I see Boon doing this.

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Post Post #4321 (isolation #193) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:11 pm

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Boon... my question wasn't about your read on me. It was a question of how you intend to scumhunt without relying on reading reactions to your claim.
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Post Post #4322 (isolation #194) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:12 pm

Post by Izariael »

You still have yet to answer.
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Post Post #4327 (isolation #195) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:15 pm

Post by Izariael »

Fair enough. I'll take it as an answer. Thanks.
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Post Post #4333 (isolation #196) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:30 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 4330, Boonskiies wrote:@Iz - While targeting you, I had barely any other interaction with anyone else in the game, and hadn't been staying focused. The reason all my scum hunting tools were all about my claim is because that's how I was staying relevant in the game. I had barely put any analysis/effort into the game, and it's all I had. It was the beginning of a large game...my day 1's are always ridiculously bad anyways. I actually start to become a pretty strong town player mid-game.


Ugh, it pains me somewhat to say this but... it makes sense. I don't agree with it, but it makes sense. I would suggest putting in a stronger effort to stay attentive on day 1 rather than just going "well I suck at them anyways so what's the point of trying?"... it's a defeatist attitude and doesn't really excuse that you aren't actively contributing. That attitude helps scum to sweep scummy actions under the rug that you may have caught if you were attentive.
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Post Post #4344 (isolation #197) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:31 pm

Post by Izariael »

Ehhh... I'll get behind this. He's had enough grace period to pull something together and has procured nothing.

VOTE: beastcharizard
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Post Post #4372 (isolation #198) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:06 pm

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In post 4364, goodmorning wrote:2. Even if Boon is being 100% ridiculous, at least he's posting. If we have to PL someone, at least it should be beast.


Well... I did vote beast over Boon, FWIW. I'm in agreement on this.
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Post Post #4384 (isolation #199) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:07 pm

Post by Izariael »

In post 4379, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 4376, The Fonz wrote:Seriously, I piss town motive in this game.

PV called. :shifty:

:lol: truth.
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