NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[PeregrineV]

im here but working from home so maybe something later- maybe not.

[PeregrineV]

im here but working from home so maybe something later- maybe not.

[PeregrineV]

I'll probably be catching up today. Anything I should look for?

[PeregrineV]

Vote: Scripten

[PeregrineV]

I don't think you get to naked vote at this stage of the game - reads and thoughts please.

It's not naked, it's more an acceptance that Izraeil probably knows better than I at this point, and last time I thought they were scum, ignored them, and we lost.

Of course, an actual read will give me a better idea. Is there a reason you think he is particularly town?

[PeregrineV]

I don't think you get to naked vote at this stage of the game - reads and thoughts please.

It's not naked, it's more an acceptance that Izraeil probably knows better than I at this point, and last time I thought they were scum, ignored them, and we lost.

Of course, an actual read will give me a better idea. Is there a reason you think he is particularly town?

I'm not sure why you'd sheep me at all, honestly. I'm also a late-comer here, playing catch-up just as you are.
Did something about Scripten's behavior make you put more weight on my read or something?

Nope, haven't read the thread yet.

Also, in the game you linked, you were my top scumread and you were town... so there's that. I'm sure that's probably a reason why you were inclined to ignore my 5-Off scumread.

If I had listened to you about 5-off, he could have been gotten that much earlier.

It could all be wrong, but for now, your being sheeped.
Yes, I took my

[PeregrineV]

I know it's only page2, but I so liked it!

I now support Csaro's lynch also.

Scripten's drunk post is also a policy lynch.

People should vote one or the other, my RVS stage is over.

I found Csaro's post refreshingly direct. What about them makes you want to lynch him?

Since when have drunk posts been a policy lynch?

VOTE: Muffin for making me hungry

Ok, that made me laugh.

Hi,

I haven't fokking read anything and won't do so right now because I'll go to work soon. However, I like the fact that there are 21 players here. Obviously, I won't self-vote so I can roll a d20 for a RVS vote.

VOTE: Boonskiies

Oh. Reasoning for the vote. We want to adopt a kitty and my sweetheart is talking about one who was posted on Facebook yesterday. If we had that kitty right now, he would vote on you. We must respect the kitty's will.

Your reason for RVS is fine. The fact that it is fake is not fine.

Cho claimed Mafia 2-Shot Even-Night Bulletproof Vigilante in the neighborhood last night.

VOTE: Cho

I believe the claim.

Is the even-night apply to the vigilante part or the Bulletproof part? The town vig needs this info to coordinate your termination.

daykill:Thor

Too early.

Caesar, you elephant, stop being serious so early!

We've got about 150 pages for that shit.

VOTE: CAESAR

You voted Caesar for being serious in his efforts to scumhunt?

unvote

I like this.

[PeregrineV]

Disclaimer: this is my first large game and I have no idea how to approach it.

VOTE: TierShift
Deal with it.

This would be the scum approach to dealing with a previously unknown environment.

[PeregrineV]

1. I found it annoying that he was taking derp fake claims serious and extending the derp fake claim discussion.

So you vote was because you found him annoying, but not scum?

2. Since always, for me.

I'll keep an eye out for that, since I see quite a few of them.

Your post here is shockingly empty.

It's page 2, what are you looking for from a page 2 read?

I could continue the discussion of the reviver and supersaint claims, but someone beat me to it. But, those don't interest me like Cho's claim.

[PeregrineV]

first read of the game.
a medium town with high chance of idiocy.

Pretty harsh page 4 criticism. What were the top 5 posts inthsoe 4 pages that points you to "town idiocy"?

[PeregrineV]

I don't think you get to naked vote at this stage of the game - reads and thoughts please.

It's not naked, it's more an acceptance that Izraeil probably knows better than I at this point, and last time I thought they were scum, ignored them, and we lost.

Of course, an actual read will give me a better idea. Is there a reason you think he is particularly town?

Last time you ignored Thor, he was lynched in LyLo and Marvel Avengers and Town lost. What makes Izzy more reasonable to sheep than Thor, given you've been in the same situation with both?

Izzy posting style appeals to the way I think.

Thor I sometimes agree with, and sometimes not, but his lack of explanations sometimes come across as greatly scummy.
I think you are referring to Marvel Alliance and not the big theme we just had, and you are correct.
For this game, Thor has given more information about the basis of his reads, but I think of the ones he's had so far there is a 75% disagreement rate, if not higher.
Also, Thor is definitely not sheepable since he's voting for me, so there is that. His other reads that I recall were you scum and grayfoxx scum-at least those were the votes I remember him making. Which, given the back and forth between you and Gray/Csar, he either changed his mind somewhere or thinks you too faked the whole thing or he's scum trying to pick a lynch.
Which of those, I'm not sure yet.

[PeregrineV]

PerV, why are you voting Scripten but not pursuing him at all? You're "scumhunting" elsewhere instead of where your vote (and ostensibly your top scumread) is. Why is that?

It was a sheeping of Izreal, who I determined was town from a single/couple of posts based on a recently completed newbie game and I decided to place a vote while I caught up.

[PeregrineV]

Pere, why sheep Izar?

374 and 494. I'm having a hard time determining if the vote is the problem, or the sheeping is the problem.

[PeregrineV]

Pere, on Page 16, you can probably ignore RVS. Just sayin'

Yeah, but I had to start reading, and Page 2 was so full of fun. Plus, RVS/early game has a lot more infromation in it than people think. It won't mean as much now, but after a few scumflips it becomes more helpful.

[PeregrineV]

PerV, why are you voting Scripten but not pursuing him at all? You're "scumhunting" elsewhere instead of where your vote (and ostensibly your top scumread) is. Why is that?

It was a sheeping of Izreal, who I determined was town from a single/couple of posts based on a recently completed newbie game and I decided to place a vote while I caught up.

So you still think Scripten is scum? yes/no

Sure, why not.

[PeregrineV]

Why yes?

I'm actually working on my reads right now, but let's add in all the attention the 2 votes he has has garnered. It earned him a Thor townread, a Muffin inquisition of my vote, an Egg agreement with Izreal of the Scripten vote, and a TobyLoby questioning of the vote. Considering no one but Thor ever squeaked about Scripten prior to his 2 votes, I find all the sudden attention to be interest arousing.

[PeregrineV]

@Pere

, What are your thoughts now that you've read the thread?

Varied and probably not very exciting, but here goes.

Players:
1. Aeronaut*- In some twist of irony has fewer posts than me. We'll see what the catchup police have to say about him, I suppose.
2. Alina- replaced? being replaced?
3. Aneninen- early scumvibes. Later, saying and doing the right things, but taking the meticulous post-by-post approach with no analysis of the posts along with the stunningly empty conclusion of Pere is scum (418). This can easily be compared to Thor's 477 with actual reasons (even if wrong).
4. Boonskiies- Probably scum
5. Cho- thought the mafia claim was good discussion starter. However, it never went anywhere after that, nor was it used to start discussion. For that, downgraded from town-rvs to null (I think psychologically that when scum claim scum it helps relieve their conscious about being scum. If others take it as fake/humor, so much the better. In any scumclaim cases, esp. RVS, I look to motive) Nothing has improved the null read, including the wagon on him.
6. GrayfoxxxxCsareo- I liked for town at the start. That diminshed somewhat by the TSO tunnel. Grayfoxx is still got some town sheen, and has not degraded it any since taking over. We'll see how it goes.
7. davesaz- Early scumvibes. Improved somewhat, but still hits me when I read some of his posts. There is scumhunting there, but it seems of the cautious type.
8. Egg- Liked his early push on me. His later self-doubt I read somewhat as town, but keeping your vote there after expressing that doubt takes away the town cred. This is one I'm be exploring more of later.
9. Garmr- probably town.
10. goodmorning- Another player I usually start reading with a town bias towards their posts. So when I read them and feel icky, not a good sign. Leaning scum.
11. Goofyd00d- Early scumvibes. Some of the things he says are contradictions in and of themselves. (295 and 455 are examples)
12. hephaestus*- skimmed and will catchup later
13. Izariael- Already discussed. early townlean, but high expectations expected.
14. Muffin- Torn here. Outing neighborhood protown, but votes Cho as scum same post. claims I scumposted without a definition of why it's scumposting (very similar to Aneninen).
15. Nero Cain- early townvibes. We'll see if these stay.
16. PeregrineV- So town! My God, so town!
17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.
18. T S O- I think he's town this game. Probably means he's scum. Not my issue, but not voting him right now.
19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.
20. TierShift- very early scumvibe, went away slowly. I see peeks of town, but not enough. Null for now, looking for more.
21. TobyLoby- Early null. The styling of some of her posts I think is town, but their delivery and followup are not there. It's like a one-way questioning but I don't think I've seen responses to the responses to her questions. Slight null-scum, but waiting for a strong read to pop.

More on this multiball thing- When otherscum have otherscum to hunt for, it's easier for them to look town. If it does turn out to be 2 scumteams, that would explain why most of the active posters aren't looking too scummy- they are also scumhunting. But, not crossing that bridge until we get to it, if ever.

[PeregrineV]

9. Garmr- probably town.

This is new this is the first game you ever town read me.

Yeah, TSO too. And not Thor. Whole world is upside-down.

[PeregrineV]

15. Nero Cain- early townvibes

Why?

Lol...not telling. But a hint, it has to do with that Big Marvel theme game we just finished.

[PeregrineV]

I have a feeling that there will be people you're reading that I would say I don't have enough information on, so still null to me. I don't think it is fair to call that caution though. I believe being honest about nulls is town while making up a read on little or no evidence is scummy. Not extremely scummy, so not enough to use that by itself as a read.

One of your observations about Thor reminds me of something I've seen at another site. I want to closely re-read the thread before commenting on this further, so this part of my post is largely a reminder to myself to come back to it. Can't spend that much time on it at work.

Yeah, I try to read early game for vibes, since early posts by necessity are info-light. With flips, they gain something. Obviously, more posting adjusts that, but I want to show the full range for the players that it applies to.

Spoiler:

Already did when you called TSO an "angry young person"

[PeregrineV]

9. Garmr- probably town.

This is new this is the first game you ever town read me.

Yeah, TSO too. And not Thor. Whole world is upside-down.

I thought you were townreading me in Marvel Avengers Alliance?

Looking back (since it was before the summer), I think you weren't town so much as you weren't as scummy as everyone else. At least that's what I got looking back at my own posts.

This time my read is purely based on nothing but your posts.

Am I right?

[PeregrineV]

Also, yes, the angriest young person ever here. Yes, me, my hand's raised.

*sigh*

Whippersnapper!!!

[PeregrineV]

@PeregrineV. Because of your catchup and your early reactions I "MissMarpled" you scum. Your list (501) contains quite a few strange things. Eg. Boonskiies is probably scum with no explanation. Goodmorning is leaning scum because she's "icky". Izariael: "high expectations expected"? Thinking that TSO is town that'swhy he's probably scum. Thor is scummy because he was calling the multiball. Toby is null-scum because of...?

Boon- Yes. Willing to hear why you think he is town.

Goodmoring is icky. Yes. It starts with 32 and 34. All smack-attack on Csar for asking the claimed reviver if he can self-revive.
Nothing to Tiershift for claiming or fakeclaiming or anything.
Nothing to Muffin about claiming or fakeclaiming or anything.
Nothing to Cho about claiming scum or anything.
Over half his posts are Csar triades about Csar responses to goodmonring posts about a role that goodmonring thinks Tiershift does not have.
No vote. For anyone. Throughout any of it.
How does that make sense for town to spend so much time on?

Izreal, covered twice, posts linked to at least twice.

TSO- I know my own limitations. Reading TSO correctly may be one of them. Any reason I should lie about that?

Thor- also covered. You want specifics ask specific questions.

Toby is nullscum because the styling of some of her posts I think is town, but their delivery and followup are not there. It's like a one-way questioning but I don't think I've seen responses to the responses to her questions. Slight null-scum, but waiting for a strong read to pop.

(To "MissMarple" – I read an X player in a game. His/her gameplay was/is very similar to an Y player's one in another game. Y flipped alignment A. Therefore, X is probably A too. "MissMarple-ing" is one of the very few ideas of mine which has been working so far. In this case, X=PeregrineV, A=scum. His readlist confirmed my read anyway.)

Just so we are clear, my readlist confirms that you think I am scum. And since you didn't say it, I'm going to note it as you disagree with the reads you questioned.

[PeregrineV]

This is specious logic and you know it.

I'm questioning your vote because it was a shitty vote, and the implication that I'm scum defending my buddy Scripten is just a transparent attempt to fling shit at the wall and see what sticks.

You think the vote was shitty because it was on Scripten, or because I sheeped Izreal? You are distinctly unlcear about the details, so I call it like I see it- you questioning the vote on Scripten.

[PeregrineV]

9. Garmr- probably town.

This is new this is the first game you ever town read me.

Yeah, TSO too. And not Thor. Whole world is upside-down.

I thought you were townreading me in Marvel Avengers Alliance?

Looking back (since it was before the summer), I think you weren't town so much as you weren't as scummy as everyone else. At least that's what I got looking back at my own posts.

This time my read is purely based on nothing but your posts.

Am I right?

Ehh, probably. I guess being townread by proxy is a bit different to actually being townread independently here,

Yes, you are townier than scum-Bulba, town-Smarg, and obstinate-Thor.

[PeregrineV]

11. Goofyd00d- Early scumvibes. Some of the things he says are contradictions in and of themselves. (295 and 455 are examples)

I don't see the contradiction between these two posts. The one one he says he tends to fly under the radar when there is a lot of action. The second post he says he sucks when there is a lot of activity.

So when others post a lot, expect less from him, or him to not be as good. When others slow down on posting, he gets better, and posts more, but then all that extra posting is increased activity, so he gets bad again....or something. Not down with the pre-excuses for bad play, seems like scum setting up to slough off any scrutiny.

I've heard of the multiball tell. I've seen it once applied and used before successfully on scum, and I've used it as scum to try and lynch town working on the assumption. So it's all over the place for me. I especially don't know what to think of it when someone outright says it.

Not a tell so much as not really a way for town to know it at this point. We use NKs to figure killing roles (mafia, SK, vig), so anything else is either hidden knowledge or unnecessary distraction.

[PeregrineV]

The simple facts are:

• by your own statement you couldn't have had a scumread on scripten when you voted because you hadn't read the game and you parked your vote there while you caught up

Yes.

Then, after catching up you:

• didn't try to convince anyone else to join you on that wagon
  
• didn't show any reasoning as to why Scripten is scum
  
• didn't post any analysis of Scripten's posts to highlight scum motivation for his posts

• No, and still haven't.
  
• Nope. It was entierly sheeping of Izreal + "17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town."+ 500
  
• Why would I? At this point I'm arguing I don't have a town read on him, he gave me early scumvibes, and I find the interest in him interesting in and of itself. You tell me why he's town and maybe we'll debate the finer points.

Then, when called on your shitty vote by me you:

• tried to paint my attack on your shitty vote as a chainsaw defense of scripten
  
• posted a big giant reads list stretching something scripten wrote to fit your pre-existing vote

• I think I asked why it was shitty. Missed your answer. Link please.
  
• As stated, was in the middle of my reads list when I posted 500. My Scripten read while writing the list was as stated. My interest has gone up since.

I'm not sure how any of those things come from a town frame of mind.

pedit I don't have a read on aninen i will iso them and get back to you

I guess when you do an analysis of my posts you can highlight my scum motivation.

[PeregrineV]

@Everyone
By the way, I have an idea. It's clear that due to the sheer size of the setup, not everyone are interacting with each other. Would it be useful if I tried to make a "graph" about the interaction frequency?

I like crap like this, so if you have the time/ability, I say go for it.

[PeregrineV]

@PeregrineV, 525 – Yes, I disagree with most of your reads. I haven't got a solid read on Boonskiies at all. I got surprised that you have. Goodmorning and Tiershift are town according to my reads. I've also started to develop a townread on Muffin too, see above. Cho is a big question mark (by the way, she's a she). I checked one game randomly and she got lynched on Day1 as a townie. As for Izariael, what does "high expectations expected" mean? TSO is scum. I've already written about him. I might add: he keeps asking everyone about me but he hadn't provided a real case against me. ("This post is a trash" or whatever is not a real case.) Thor is very town and so as Toby, in my opinion. And yes, you're my strongest scumread. My vote is for you too.

Boon- Then analyze what you got on Boon.

goodmorning, Tier, Muffin, Cho- OK

Izariael- Check out her posting in the linked Newbie game.

TSO- So did I. As for lack of real cases, welcome to the club.

Thor- yeah, maybe. He's mostly town in my games and I always want to read hiim as town but we sometimes think so opposite it's hard to keep him there, and he becomes a scumread. That only helped in one game (where he was scum). So, yeah, pushing this one off for now.

Toby- the fact that any responses to Toby are not further responded to by Toby doesn't matter? It's like they don't care about the answer.

[PeregrineV]

P-EDIT:

@goodmorning
Just curious why vote now and not earlier. You mention people earlier you feel uneasy about but didn't really push on them. I don't really understand a reason to hold back your vote if you find someone suspicious?

I like this question.

I was primarily focused on reading Csareo since he was responding to questions and I could play off the TSO thing.
As far as mentioning my uneasiness on people: one irrelevant post or off gut read does not a good vote make.
I've found I can have difficulty in Larges due to sheer scope of the playerlist, so mentioning people I'm uncomfortable with

in the moment

is a new thing I'm trying; I should be able to put my focus where I want it and look back to see where I was uncomfortable with AND NOTICED someone in the past.
It's also a good way to mark things I may want to pursue at a later date.

Ok so you saying it's a playstyle thing your trying. It also crossed my mind earlier you might be using the neighborhood to discuss cases and that's why you weren't pushing as hard in thread. It got me thinking what warrants a vote to you? Because I use my vote as a pressure tool and I find threatening to vote someone if they don't answer a question can sometimes apply even more pressure to answer. So not voting till this late in the game baffles me.

Can you tell me in your mind what does a vote mean to you and how do you use them?

Yeah, he's trying to convince me of total playstyle change from here. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=25487

[PeregrineV]

A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum.

Specious logic again.

Explain how my logic is superficially plausible, but actually wrong.

Why would I?

Because you're voting him?

Yes, but the vote is generating good discussion right now. I'll decide to push it if and when I do.

At this point I'm arguing I don't have a town read on him, he gave me early scumvibes, and I find the interest in him interesting in and of itself. You tell me why he's town and maybe we'll debate the finer points.

No, that's not how it works. The onus is on you to explain why someone is scum. I myself have him pretty null, but you voted for no reason and then stretched the facts to justify your vote instead of just finding someone scummier to vote. That's not a natural progression that I'd expect from a town player.

I've given my reads so far. Any shifts are too minor to bother with just yet. I voted him because Izreail did, and I had a townread on her. That was the reason. The facts stayed the same from my read, and had no effect nor were affected by my vote on him. So "stretched facts" is a stretch. And I will continue to surprise you, I'm sure.

If you aren't scumreading him why are you still parking your vote there? Why not vote one of the other players you're attacking?

Pretty certain I haven't attacked anyone yet. Maybe goodnmoring, but it was more of a sarcastic observation. My vote is staying there because why not?

[PeregrineV]

Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
I presume it's a majority?

Let's find out together. Me being in them doesn't seem to have much bearing, so let's just look.

NY169 : 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY173: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY172: 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY171: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY170: 19 players, 3 mafia
NY167: 17 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY166: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK (in this)
NY165: 24 players, 5 mafia + SK (ran this)
NY164: 24 players, 3 mafia + 4 mafia (in this)
NY161: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)

NY143: 21 players, 3 mafia + 3 mafia (in this) (2011)

NY137: 21 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY134: 22 players, 5 mafia

It seems 3 years and 35 Large Normal games ago, there was a 21 player game with 2 scumteams.
So, yes, a large majority were not.

[PeregrineV]

baring multiball, I'd know his alignment and thus would have no need to be wishy washy.

@Pere - also, Nero was actually the first one to say the word.
So...yeah, are you claiming scum?
I feel like you're claiming scum.
I'm going to vote you on the basis you're claiming scum.

Nero used it as a logic example. You said "Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption"
There is a difference.
Your already voting me, so changing the "reason" of your vote is very

[PeregrineV]

@Everyone - Pere claimed scum. I caught him. You may sheep me now.

Heh. I like this. Not yet ready to sheep Thor, but this is a good post.

Can you believe people can't figure out why I might have you as a scumread?

[PeregrineV]

I'm almost positive it's multiball. My role basically implies it.

If your scumrole implies it,

Blue Mafia Goon

, then that's fine.If your townrole implies it, then saying so right away makes a difference in how we scumhunt.

Perhaps Thor has a similar role to you....

[PeregrineV]

Fluff

: (a benchmark)
Hi, I am your Alina replacement, she didnt make any(zero) posts that I disagree with, so no Amish tell here.
However in the same way that Meta (see post 367) you are self aware of, and is modifiable, is thus usually completely null, then no Amish tell is null for me too. (@Muffin: have two cookies, @Iza: also I am also disappoint)

Spoiler: More fluff

I have a wiki page and One completed game and although its newbie ought give you peek under the hood.

RBS over (random bullshit phase)

---

Top scumread would be Scripten. I'm irked by everything in his ISO. Non-committal, flimsy reads and a lackadaisical vote on top wagon are raising my hackles.

VOTE: Scripten

This looks like a vote for town cred rather than a vote based on actual scumhunting.

It's fairly early into D1, and you want solid reads on people? In a large?

Also, Cho was tied with TSO at

three

votes. I think I can deal with the guilt of putting someone at L-8 or so.

@Scripten

Please explain how you think that would get "town cred" and is not actual scum hunting.
(I fail to see your point of view) (I fail to see how you can hold your point of view.) (It feels made up.) Show me your perspective.

---

Also while I usually try not to tread in other peoples puddles, I am not fully up to speed, so pardon any size 12's.

Axle-

Welcome!

Axle-

Muffin is done debating semantics (556). But maybe you'll get an answer where I drew only criticism. Good luck with that!

[PeregrineV]

Explain how my logic is superficially plausible, but actually wrong.

Because if you actually go into depth, any rational player would realize that your argument falls on its ass if your definition of "town cred" is different from his. I'm done debating semantics with you on this point. Your logic is faulty and you know it.

My vote is staying there because why not?

Yes, you need a safe place to park it so you can pretend to be scumhunting. I understand.

Axle will be taking up the first argument.


I guess we have different definitions of "safe", "park", "pretend", "scumhunting" and "understand".

And since he's only a null read, please inform us when he is full on town in your reads.

[PeregrineV]

Didn't ask Muffin.
Don't expect an answer from him.

Surprised I got one from you.
Writing it off as a welcome party. (good social graces)

I made the same argument already, with the end response as shown.

17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.

Explain how my logic is superficially plausible, but actually wrong.

Because if you actually go into depth, any rational player would realize that your argument falls on its ass if your definition of "town cred" is different from his. I'm done debating semantics with you on this point. Your logic is faulty and you know it.

My vote is staying there because why not?

Yes, you need a safe place to park it so you can pretend to be scumhunting. I understand.

Makes sense that if you make the same argument I did, you'll get your shore 'o the Muffin wrath.

[PeregrineV]

scripten's a big boy, he doesn't need me to defend him despite your burning desire to argue with me about scripten's motives

ask him yourself, perv

Yet you are defending him.

The question is out there from both me and Axle. We'll see what he says.

[PeregrineV]

Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.
I presume it's a majority?

Let's find out together. Me being in them doesn't seem to have much bearing, so let's just look.

NY169 : 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY173: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK
NY172: 20 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY171: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)
NY170: 19 players, 3 mafia
NY167: 17 players, 4 mafia (in this)
NY166: 18 players, 4 mafia + SK (in this)

NY165: 24 players, 5 mafia + SK (ran this)

NY164: 24 players, 3 mafia + 4 mafia (in this)

NY161: 21 players, 5 mafia (in this)

NY143: 21 players, 3 mafia + 3 mafia (in this) (2011)

NY137: 21 players, 4 mafia + SK

NY134: 22 players, 5 mafia

It seems 3 years and 35 Large Normal games ago, there was a 21 player game with 2 scumteams.
So, yes, a large majority were not.

Adjusted that for how it was used in the discussion.
Adding in the other SK ones changes it to a 6/13 ratio.
Meaning, roughly, 50%

So...yeah, I think that is a safe assumption to have in your head Day 1.
Also, you called me scum for bringing up multiball...in relation to a discussion where someone brought up multiball...so, yes, I do think that's weird on your part.

And, really, "changing your reason upon consideration of new information is scummy"
Pull the other one, it has bells on.

I don't have a lot of sheep yet.
Why are people scared of this - he is declaring scum.
If you don't think he is then you should probably explain why you don't find the commentary scummy. Because I find it five alarm chilli level.

Except Multiball means 2 scumteams, as per the definition: "Serial Killers and other one-person groups do not count; the term is specific to scum groups of multiple players."
So, your attempt to use SKs to discredit me is pretty blatant.
Your attempt to use 24 player games as examples is also blatant. I included them for reference, but 24 is not 21, and the setup and balance for each is different.
So, try 25%. And recently, none of them.

[PeregrineV]

Oh, or 4/7 if we only count games with 21+

Except you didn't say 21+. If you had, we wouldn't be discussing this.

[PeregrineV]

That also doesn't matter. I don't even wish to get into a 'is or isn't this multiball' discussion and never did - it's not germane to any issue on the table.

If you have an opinion about Pere calling me scummy for mentioning multiball or how I'm calling him scum for doing so - that would be excellent discussion to have.

I'm calling you out on your certainty that this 21 player game is mulitball.

Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.

"Safe assumption" is not mentioning it. It means "it is safe to assume".

Now you can discuss how you didn't mean what you said. Or something, I'm sure.

[PeregrineV]

Considering 4 is the meta for almost garunteed, I would say 5 people in a hood contains a scum, and maybe even multi factions.

Here's another mention of multiball that didn't bother Pere.

Could be Goofy is scum.

[PeregrineV]

Uh huh... Because nobody makes votes just to gain good favor with the rest of the town, right?

Why would you think that voting you would earn Izariael good favor with the rest of the town?

His (intentional(?)) misinterpretations and the fact that he's ready to vote Thor for discussing multiball are huge red flags. Does nobody else follow why the latter is so scummy?

What did I misrep?
Everyone is trying to tell me why I'm wrong, but it hasn't worked so far. Give it a shot, though.

[PeregrineV]

scripten's a big boy, he doesn't need me to defend him despite your burning desire to argue with me about scripten's motives

ask him yourself, perv

Yet you are defending him.

The question is out there from both me and Axle. We'll see what he says.

i know, i need to stop arguing with my scumreads

Yeah, you started with 397 and have been digging your hole deeper ever since. :shrug:

[PeregrineV]

Before I forget-
@goodmorning- I was scum in Amurika, so I had to dodge you. You made it tricky and hard to do.
Two of the games you linked you were an alt or hydra or something.
The last (graveyard) had all around bad play by most of the town, so not using that as meta for this game. Got any more?

[PeregrineV]

Do you understand this, or rather, follow my train of thought?

I follow your train of thought but find it very surface oriented.
The point isn't that he called me scum for multiball commentary - the point is how and why he did it considering the conversation it was brought up in.

Does that make sense?

Except Multiball means 2 scumteams, as per the definition: "Serial Killers and other one-person groups do not count; the term is specific to scum groups of multiple players."
So, your attempt to use SKs to discredit me is pretty blatant.
Your attempt to use 24 player games as examples is also blatant. I included them for reference, but 24 is not 21, and the setup and balance for each is different.
So, try 25%. And recently, none of them.

I will agree the wiki defines multiball as notincluding SKs.
I will also say I have been in a game witha 2-player SK.

That said - if you look at my comment to Nero it clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'

Also, if I had clarified SK - I understand that 'SK hunting' is also considered a scumtell (or SK tell) so I don't actually see the point of even trying to draw the difference here.

I saw what you said to Nero.
I saw what you said about the game.
Based on my experience, it's not multiball.
If you want to speculate there might be an SK in the game, I would wonder why you speculate that or why you care, but would probably agree.
If you try to speculate that Nero's actions point to him being the SK, then I'll tell you I don't get that.
I did not see in your comment where you were specifying a Serial Killer. You said Nero was not scumbuddies with Csar (259).

Do you disagree that my comment means what I said it means here? And if you do, please explain why.

Try this format
-Thor's comment (linked)
-What Thor meant
Then I'll be able to answer it, since right now I'm not sure what you are asking.

Except you didn't say 21+. If you had, we wouldn't be discussing this.

Well...actually, yes, I said exactly that.

Please provide me a link to all the 21+ player games you have been in recently that were not multiball.

My bad, I did misread that.
I assumed that you wanted to point out 21 player games that were multiball, because we are in a 21 player game that you stated was obviously multiball.
You may now argue for the nature of 21+ games, but I'll state in advance that changing the facts changes the arguement, esp. about something like mafia game size.

So I should add 'lying to butter up a case' to your scumtells then
You're trying to defend yourself in a pedantic manner.
It looks scummy to me.
What's up with this? Why don't you walk me through how and why you actually think your catch on me is scummy and also why it doesn't apply to Nero or Goofy - that would be interesting to hear moreso than the weak word dance you're doing now.

-Sure, why not.
-Being exact about what you said and what I said in a printed forum game is kind of the point of the printed forum game.
-OK
-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.). However, I don't think it is in your nature to "slip", nor to be so bold nor so brazen about possibly having a scumrole. So, as stated before,

The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.

-I already pointed out the differences between mentioning, speculating, and stating. You've been pushing everything based on my 501 statement, and instead of just letting it go (which I do sometimes), I proceeded to point out why you were wrong. You've since continued to push for my lynch, not for actually being wrong in my opinion, conclusion, or summary, but because I have that opinion, posted that conclusion, and backed up that summary. Making this another case of (strength of reaction) vs (strength of initial post) (see Scripten vote).

[PeregrineV]

It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.

What has Thor been saying? In your own words.

[PeregrineV]

Before I forget-
@goodmorning- I was scum in Amurika, so I had to dodge you. You made it tricky and hard to do.
Two of the games you linked you were an alt or hydra or something.
The last (graveyard) had all around bad play by most of the town, so not using that as meta for this game. Got any more?

Those are the ones we've both been players in at the same time.
You died before I replaced into Timeshift I, and I modded NY167 which you were a player in.

I still don't see why AMURIKA is relevant to this game or what point you're trying to make with it, and in Shadows I was in a hydra which the other partner abandoned after like 3 posts, so it's pretty much just me.

Tunneling is an extremely effective scum tactic used to avoid 90% of the rest of the players. The fact that 50% of your posts here are Csar tunnels is in contrast to the last memorable game with you, in which your town play was easily recognizable.

Assume I take you at your word that Grayfoxx is now a townread for you after all that, what's next on the goodmorning agenda?

[PeregrineV]

I also would LOVE you to point out where I said the game was obviously multiball.

Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption

Why? Also, if you're right, isn't Nero more likely town for seeming to genuinely assume there is no evidence for it?

Why? Because there are 21 players in this game.
And I could easily argue that he's more likely scum for trying to act like there's no reason to think that because scum are the only ones with legit evidence about the question and he's trying to cover for that knowledge but overplayed his hand.

It's not obvious, it's a safe assumption.

[PeregrineV]

I asked this: That said - if you look at my comment to Nero it clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'
About my post mentioning multiball.
That you called scummy.
This is not complicated - answer the question. You're the one who analyzed my post and found it alignment indicative - why not expand on your work?

Show me your comment that clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'.

[PeregrineV]

Actually I'm calling your entire use of logic here suspect and pointing out the double standard you are using n applying it and calling that scummy.
You have responded with further proof that you're either not really reading the game or are trying to bluster through my issues.
I don't feel like we're actually talking yet.
You're not talking openly, you're offering up misrepresented or half finished thoughts and then waving your hands wildly in the hopes this will go away.
I mean, look at the quote above. I asked you to explain how what I did was scummy - you didn't actually. You even admit that I wouldn't tend to do that as a slip which leaves...what exactly? If it wasn't a slip I was intentionally doing it? Okay...why? And why would it be scummy as opposed to, say, a town breadcrumb or something? Like, the logic just does not flow nor is it an answer as to why you concluded it was scummy.
I'm trying to talk with you.
Why are you dancing with me instead?

Let's start over.

My opinion on Thor:

19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.

Thor, what do you think of my opinion on you?

[PeregrineV]

It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.

What has Thor been saying? In your own words.

Nah. I think you can figure it out. Actually, on that note, what part of finding it likely that this game is multiball is alignment-indicative? Do you think that scum have a better idea about the setup than town do?

P-Edit: Gorramit. Ninja'd by Thor.

-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.). However, I don't think it is in your nature to "slip", nor to be so bold nor so brazen about possibly having a scumrole.

[PeregrineV]

Reminder that throughout this entire exchange where PereV is calling Thor scum, Pere has had his vote parked on a go-nowhere wagon.

The wagon that is now at 3?

What's the matter Per? Scared to vote Thor?

I can actually argue with someone without thinking they are scum. I am married after all, and my wife has yet to NK me.

But seriously, are you reading my posts? Read 501 again and come back to me.

[PeregrineV]

Let's start over.

My opinion on Thor:

19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.

Thor, what do you think of my opinion on you?

That it is scummy, unsupported, a double standard (triple, really) and lazy whilst being used as a smokescreen for doing nothing.
Also - that you cannot even justify it when asked to.

Well thanks for that. Good news for you, if it turns out to not be multiball, like 75% of the 21 player games played in the last 3 years, then it was just me be dumb/scummy/paranoid/whatever.
If it does turn out that way, then we can argue about it again, I think.

What are your thoughts on my thoughts on the 19 other players I gave my reads on while lazily doing nothing?

[PeregrineV]

I do not find your desire to change up the conversation very functional - you ducked multiple questions and still failed to explain your logic.

I thought we started over?

And I explained the logic about all of it. If you want to continue to press that you do not understand what I am saying, then say so.
If you disagree, then say so (and I think you did).

If you want to say you meant this

Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role. But that's all I get out of it.

when you said this

Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be scumbuddies. But that's all I get out of it.

Then say it. Or, say exactly what you meant using as many or as few words as possible.

[PeregrineV]

And I explained the logic about all of it. If you want to continue to press that you do not understand what I am saying, then say so.

I literally just did.

If you disagree, then say so (and I think you did).

That is also correct.

You do not understand what I am saying (the logic of why I said it).

You disagree with what I'm saying? Or do you disagree with the logic which you do not understand?

[PeregrineV]

No, I meant that when I specifically said the word multiball. As I said.
I put it in context to show just how silly your raised statement is.
Now please address it.

So when you said

Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.

You meant:

Well...first off [the existence] of any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.

In that case, probably best to say so, since multiball is a fairly precise term used to indicate multiple teams, not just multiple non-town killing roles.

In the meantime, I'll stick to my silly raised statement.

[PeregrineV]

You do not understand what I am saying (the logic of why I said it).

You disagree with what I'm saying? Or do you disagree with the logic which you do not understand?

I have stated the logic as I understand it, and said that I disagreed with it and asked for clarification on the logic if such exists.
You are playing word games.

No word games.
And no, the abosolute best way I can explain it I already have:

-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.).

So when you said

Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.

You meant:

Well...first off [the existence] of any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.

In that case, probably best to say so, since multiball is a fairly precise term used to indicate multiple teams, not just multiple non-town killing roles.

In the meantime, I'll stick to my silly raised statement.

Yes, that is what I meant and indicated it is also clearly what I meant when taken in context and you were asked to assess that claim and then address how it does or does not affect your read.

As I've said, a safe assumption that an SK exists is also an eyebrow raising statement, but since it is, IMO, more likely, less so than your actual statement.

Your method of doing so was to repeat what I said to you.
Kind of shrug.
And then state that you're sticking to the claim.

I will take this to mean you find that insane as a possible interpretation of what I meant.
Please describe what YOU think I meant.

I see how that could have been an interpretation of what you said. In which case,

YOU COULD HAVE JUST SAID THAT.

I'm not sure what the hell you were saying to Nero- maybe telling him he CAN be scum because it's a safe assumption that there is more than one non-town faction. In which case, not sure why you would think so, and not sure of your purpose in telling him that.

[PeregrineV]

It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.

What has Thor been saying? In your own words.

I'd also like this clarified, since it seemed directed at me but I don't actually understand what Thor comment it's referring to. Thor's address of Peregrine and I are two separate topics, so clumping them in together to say "[we're both] missing what Thor has been saying" seems like an attempt to buddy up with Thor.

You saw the reactions to the Scripten vote. What do you think of them (the reactions)?

[PeregrineV]

@661- That will be interesting.

[PeregrineV]

Going out of town this weekend, but will catch up tonight.

@Aegor- V/LA this weekend- back Monday

Noted.

-A

[PeregrineV]

Back- catching up today/tonight

[PeregrineV]

However, @PeregrineV, Thor was neither the only one and (as far as I can remember) nor the first one who was talking about a multiball. Why Thor is scummy? Why not the others? Because Thor started to build up a wagon against you?

Go back and look at what they said.
Go back and look at what Thor said.
Go back and look at what I said.
Get back to me.

[PeregrineV]

You saw the reactions to the Scripten vote. What do you think of them (the reactions)?

Which Scripten vote? Yours or mine? I think there were different reactions to each.

Scripten's reaction to both votes hasn't done anything so far to alleviate a scumread on him, and has probably made it stronger since I'm currently feeling no inclination to move my vote. His reaction is not one that I'd anticipate from town who just got voted.
Thor's reaction to your vote wasn't unwarranted, which I would be tempted to townread, but his recent multiball exchange with you is making it hard to establish a townread or scumread on him. I didn't care much for his reaction to my vote though. Not only did he miss the reason for my vote, but then he spits on my ability to form reads. It's either gross town or gross scum. Either way, it's icky play.

I have to jolt over to work, but there were a couple of other players that I'd townread for their reactions, I just need time to find the posts in question. I'll get to this later.

I feel like your was mostly ignored. Mine was questioned and fought against by people not Scripten. If they had Scripten as town, then OK, but either null of no read has been most responses.

[PeregrineV]

Thor engaged my post callng the multiball-related scumtells into question, where PeregrineV is just ignoring me.

While I find it distasteful that Thor focused more on the terminology and less on the content behind my posts, I can much more easily see that being town than actively avoiding the whole issue. I also find it pretty scummy that PeregrineV would focus on only Thor's mention as scummy, where at least two others have posted about roles.. One of which was before Thor.

VOTE: PeregrineV

Go back and look at what they said.
Go back and look at what Thor said.
Go back and look at what I said.
Get back to me.

Which posts were directed at me that you would like me to answer?

[PeregrineV]

Would you help me vote Aneninen tomorrow if I go with this today?

Maybe. Maybe not.
If I have to buy your vote with that sort of weak promise then I don't want it.

I'm not sure what the hell you were saying to Nero- maybe telling him he CAN be scum because it's a safe assumption that there is more than one non-town faction. In which case, not sure why you would think so, and not sure of your purpose in telling him that.

This post pretty much encapsulates the scum case on you.

I welcome anyone to go back to what I was saying to Nero and manage to get this info from the exchange.

I do not believe I have ever used the 'you're better than this' tell.
But you're better than this Pere. It's screwy. And you're acting like you're up to snuff, which makes it scummy.

Pretty sure your case is "They said multiball and Pere didn't call them scummy. That makes Pere scummy."

I welcome anyone to point out otherwise.

[PeregrineV]

In other words: compare the PeregrineV wagon and my one. On PeregrineV there were much content written. On me, almost nothing.

[PeregrineV]

You can ISO me to see: apart from my random vote I've only voted for PeregrineV so far. And I posted my reasons for doing so.

I have quite a few of those.

[PeregrineV]

Considering 4 is the meta for almost garunteed, I would say 5 people in a hood contains a scum, and maybe even multi factions.

Here's another mention of multiball that didn't bother Pere.

Could be Goofy is scum.

I was trying to point out that a 5 neighborhood is suspicious in a time of the game where people were trying to deny that the neighborhood even had one mafia any. I wasn't implying this game had to be multiball

(I'm catching up and still at post 601, sorry if this is no longer relevant.)

@Thor

[PeregrineV]

Izariael

- Check out

her

posting in the linked Newbie game.

Completely off-topic, but I shed a tear of joy when you finally spelled my name correctly and a tear of sadness when you got my pronoun incorrect. It's a whirlwind roller coaster of emotions right now.

Typing is not my strong suit. Copy/pasted that time.

[PeregrineV]

@PeregrineV: I'm actually very curious to know your stance on this. Do you think his bolded statement is something that should reassure us of his towniness?

A sample town PM is in the 1st or second post, so no, means nothing.

[PeregrineV]

If this is a serious post, please elaborate.

If you're scum and not sure how to play in a large game you've never played in before, a self-vote will reveal absolutely nothing in the event of your flip, and so is a safe move to make as scum.

[PeregrineV]

You seem to be addressing me as though I've been Smurfing on you, which I haven't. What's up with the attitude?

It's a valid point I am raising - I want you to justify your issue. I am not saying you're doing anything bad (or good, for that matter), I am saying I want to understand your thoughts for why you are saying what you're saying.
Hint: I am scumhunting you.

What gm whine?

Iso feature...
Though it just happened like a page ago and was addressed to you.
Basically a request to stop buddying me and re-read me - you're clearly reading the current stuff so why didn't you address it?

[PeregrineV]

Okay thor, we seem not to be on the same page.

How things seemed to have gone according to me:

You call iza out for his flawed logic and say in the same post you are willing to lynch him.

This led me to believe you thought iza was scummy for flawed theory, which I took issue with. However, the quote below says you found it deserving of something resembling a PL, instead of finding it scummy.

You were arguing 1 and now you seem to be arguing 2. That's inconsistent.

I actually argued that #1 meant he deserved death,

I never argued that it made him scummy.

Next quote, however, shows you did find him scummy at that time, presumably for messing up theory.

You have not really addressed why you had issue with me questioning him

or finding his answers scummy.

I only take issue with you finding him scummy for genuine, flawed logic. It seemed to be you were doing that, but currently it is not clear to me anymore.

Amazingly, you feel like you are talking in circles with Thor.

[PeregrineV]

Pere, I didn't have a problem with you sheeping Izar. I was just trying to understand why you picked a player who wasn't very influential at that point in the game. However, there is also possible scum motivation in adding a vote right after a case is made like that even if that's not where I was going with the question.

It sounds like you have a problem withthe person I sheeped, then had a problem with sheeping. What's your position on Scripten, the subject of the vote?

Pere, why is your entire reads list either scum vibes or started town but now scum? You realize there are town players in this game, right?

Noy sure what you mean. Here's my old list, so who started as town and is now scum (not entire list, to be sure).

@Pere

, What are your thoughts now that you've read the thread?

Varied and probably not very exciting, but here goes.

Players:
1. Aeronaut*- In some twist of irony has fewer posts than me. We'll see what the catchup police have to say about him, I suppose.
2. Alina- replaced? being replaced?
3. Aneninen- early scumvibes. Later, saying and doing the right things, but taking the meticulous post-by-post approach with no analysis of the posts along with the stunningly empty conclusion of Pere is scum (418). This can easily be compared to Thor's 477 with actual reasons (even if wrong).
4. Boonskiies- Probably scum
5. Cho- thought the mafia claim was good discussion starter. However, it never went anywhere after that, nor was it used to start discussion. For that, downgraded from town-rvs to null (I think psychologically that when scum claim scum it helps relieve their conscious about being scum. If others take it as fake/humor, so much the better. In any scumclaim cases, esp. RVS, I look to motive) Nothing has improved the null read, including the wagon on him.
6. GrayfoxxxxCsareo- I liked for town at the start. That diminshed somewhat by the TSO tunnel. Grayfoxx is still got some town sheen, and has not degraded it any since taking over. We'll see how it goes.
7. davesaz- Early scumvibes. Improved somewhat, but still hits me when I read some of his posts. There is scumhunting there, but it seems of the cautious type.
8. Egg- Liked his early push on me. His later self-doubt I read somewhat as town, but keeping your vote there after expressing that doubt takes away the town cred. This is one I'm be exploring more of later.
9. Garmr- probably town.
10. goodmorning- Another player I usually start reading with a town bias towards their posts. So when I read them and feel icky, not a good sign. Leaning scum.
11. Goofyd00d- Early scumvibes. Some of the things he says are contradictions in and of themselves. (295 and 455 are examples)
12. hephaestus*- skimmed and will catchup later
13. Izariael- Already discussed. early townlean, but high expectations expected.
14. Muffin- Torn here. Outing neighborhood protown, but votes Cho as scum same post. claims I scumposted without a definition of why it's scumposting (very similar to Aneninen).
15. Nero Cain- early townvibes. We'll see if these stay.
16. PeregrineV- So town! My God, so town!
17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.
18. T S O- I think he's town this game. Probably means he's scum. Not my issue, but not voting him right now.
19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.
20. TierShift- very early scumvibe, went away slowly. I see peeks of town, but not enough. Null for now, looking for more.
21. TobyLoby- Early null. The styling of some of her posts I think is town, but their delivery and followup are not there. It's like a one-way questioning but I don't think I've seen responses to the responses to her questions. Slight null-scum, but waiting for a strong read to pop.

More on this multiball thing- When otherscum have otherscum to hunt for, it's easier for them to look town. If it does turn out to be 2 scumteams, that would explain why most of the active posters aren't looking too scummy- they are also scumhunting. But, not crossing that bridge until we get to it, if ever.

[PeregrineV]

Also, in all seriousness, go back and read the *conversation* wherein I brought up multiball.
Not the post, the conversation, and ask yourself if it seemed scummy in any way particularly that I brought it up.
Then ask yourself why Pere thought it was scummy.
Then go and look at how I asked him to explain and the way (shifty and not answering) he chose to respond.

I'd like to see that. Pretty sure I explained it and you said you did not understand.

You do not understand what I am saying (the logic of why I said it).

You disagree with what I'm saying? Or do you disagree with the logic which you do not understand?

I have stated the logic as I understand it, and said that I disagreed with it and asked for clarification on the logic if such exists.
You are playing word games.

No word games.
And no, the abosolute best way I can explain it I already have:

-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.).

Then, Axle explained it. You kind of blew him off though.

Level of certainty expressed.
Yours contains a much stronger belief in multiball than the others. If at the time Pere did not know (or recall) that that was backed by some facts then I can see him triggering harder of your statement than theirs as he would wonder where the certainty came from.

You are kind of doing the same to Tiershift, where you can't seem to grasp what they are saying or why they are saying it.

I almost hesitate to use intentionally obtuse, but it's coming close to that. It also opens the avenue for you to attack anyone who doesn't continually TRY to clarify as "probable scum". And when they clarify, you still don't "get it", and blame them.

And would like the exact details of what you don't like about my reads (as you said in 848) that you are trying to paint as fake.

[PeregrineV]

If he had openly stated he was skimming/sipping stuff - no worries.
But he didn't, he chose to present like he read.
He was probably lying about that.
Why do you think town Pere would do that?

Is scumperegrine known to do these things?
I'll reread when completing catchups.

Townperegrine is known *not* to do those things.

I'd answer this for myself if I knew the question.

Do I sometimes skim/skip as town? Yes.
Do I sometimes read it all as town? Yes.
Do I sometimes skim/skip as scum? Yes, but less often than as town.
Do I sometimes read it all as scum? Yes, so I don't bugger my buddies with bad play.

[PeregrineV]

follow up: If PV gets lynched and flips town are you going to want to lynch Thor/Egg?

You know, a wise man once said "If it turns out to be multiple scum teams, I'll be pushing hard for a Thor lynch."

This is also based on the fact I was in a neighborhood with Thor and Egg. Their neighborhood play is fairly null. You can read it as if they are town and think, yeah, OK, town. You could read it as if they were scum and go, yeah, they're scum.

If it turns out to be 2 scumteams, then Egg/Thor are probably not on the same team.

Anymore scumhunting in my neighborhood will either have to be done tonight or not by me.

[PeregrineV]

haven't even developed a read on Egg yet.

Why not? You have 30 posts, they have 24. If you think all 24 Egg posts are null, then would like to hear that.

[PeregrineV]

Scripten – What's the story here? All I can see is a moderately-active townie who (maybe?) waits for more content and reads. Have I missed something? Also, I find it strange that Scripten is mentioned many more times than according to the amount of his content should have been. Lean town.

I would like more elaboration on this, as to why he leans town.

[PeregrineV]

catch-up sorta finished.

Boon, claim your role if it confirms multiball.

As much as I hate voting with thor, peregrine's read on thor for the multiball comment is actually scummy as fuck.

VOTE: pere
Shit.

closer looks at anen, muffin and iza coming up tomorrow.

Quote my read on Thor to show you understand it.

[PeregrineV]

Right now, my final thoughts are that I support both wagons if and until I get a satisfactory explanation from Pere - that is, an answer which isn't a) silence or b) semantics.

The question being......

[PeregrineV]

FWIW, going through reviews of various players. I reviewed some posts of Muffin. I would call this town with some pretty good confidence.

I see nothing in those posts that make me say "Holy shit Muffin is town!" Can you point out specifically what is it about those posts that can't come from scum?

pedit:I see you posting Thor, but I'm catching up so will get there when I do.

[PeregrineV]

Is anyone planning to start a counter wagon?
Is anyone planning to help push this wagon into claim range?
Or were we going to talk in circles and wait till about 24 hours till deadline to get our act together and do either in a derp rush that allows scum to better hide motivations?

There are some.
I can claim now, although it's already pretty much been claimed.
Some people need to actually talk more, and some need to say things with their posts, so what's the hurry?

[PeregrineV]

Pretty sure your case is "They said multiball and Pere didn't call them scummy. That makes Pere scummy."

I welcome anyone to point out otherwise.

Well...since I never said that was the case, I would challenge you to point out where I said what you're claiming my case is.

You originally voted me for voting Scripten.
After I post 501, you argue, to include this statement:

What's up with this? Why don't you walk me through how and why you actually think your catch on me is scummy and also why it doesn't apply to Nero or Goofy - that would be interesting to hear moreso than the weak word dance you're doing now.

and this

Actually I'm calling your entire use of logic here suspect and pointing out the double standard you are using n applying it and calling that scummy.
You have responded with further proof that you're either not really reading the game or are trying to bluster through my issues.
I don't feel like we're actually talking yet.
You're not talking openly, you're offering up misrepresented or half finished thoughts and then waving your hands wildly in the hopes this will go away.
I mean, look at the quote above. I asked you to explain how what I did was scummy - you didn't actually. You even admit that I wouldn't tend to do that as a slip which leaves...what exactly? If it wasn't a slip I was intentionally doing it? Okay...why? And why would it be scummy as opposed to, say, a town breadcrumb or something? Like, the logic just does not flow nor is it an answer as to why you concluded it was scummy.

When I aksed you what you thought of my opinion on you, you said:

That it is scummy, unsupported, a double standard (triple, really) and lazy whilst being used as a smokescreen for doing nothing.

I therefore conclude that

part of your case on my is me calling you out for saying multiball is a safe assumption

.
Is this conclusion inccorect?

I have pointed out a few things about you, the core of it is that you're not scumhunting and are being fake and lazy. That has actually been my point on you for quite some time.
If you want my issue with the 'multiball' comment then I would note that you can see it here;

Also, you called me scum for bringing up multiball...in relation to a discussion where someone brought up multiball...so, yes, I do think that's weird on your part.

My issue is not that others mentioned it (though I do think that is also telling)
My issue is that someone said 'hey, barring multiball this makes sense"
And I said 'there is no reason to rule out multiball, I find it safe to presume it'
And you're like 'dat makes Thor scum!'

Which...no...no it doesn't.
And you have still failed to explain how it does.
It is lazy and not scumhunting.
That was, is, and likely will remain my issue with you.

I think I said, should there be 2 scumteams, I will be pushing strongly for a Thor lynch. Given that 25% of 21-player large games have 2 scumteams, it seems the single-scum reponse would be to ignore or say "good luck with that" and the town response would be to ignore or say "good luck with that."
What I did not expect was "Well they said it it too!" defense.
Axle done detailed it, there is a difference in how it was said in in the context and conviction.
Which takes me back to , "if there are 2 scumteams, I'llbe looking at Thor."

It's actually setting a future condition which may or may not come true, and was but a single read of 20 other players.

As for lazy, you wish. I usually don't put much work into day1s because there's not much to get from them, usually. This game, however, has so many over-reactions and so many reads that I've been putting effort into it. Considering I have little idea on where you stand on the other 19 players, you could be not-lazy and tell us who is scum with me.

[PeregrineV]

Mind these:

If you WERE interested in my answers you could have asked questions. It didn't happen.
If you NEEDED information for getting a read on me you could have maintained a real communication instead of asking OTHERS about me. It didn't happen.
If you WERE really thinking that I didn't understand your posts or I was unable to express myself, you could have pointed out the concerning bits of information so as to resolve all the possible misunderstandings. It didn't happen.

Your scumread and vote of me came without you doing any of these things to me. Explain the hypocrisy.

[PeregrineV]

Right now, my final thoughts are that I support both wagons if and until I get a satisfactory explanation from Pere - that is, an answer which isn't a) silence or b) semantics.

The question being......

You should read less in ISO and more in context.

Who game so far has been in context except when back reading. ISO work comes after scumflips.

Can you then walk me through why being nonsensical merits this large wagon?

That's the bit I haven't got this whole game.

The point is that he is advancing it as a serious and legit tell.
Was asked to explain it and didn't even defend the tell, but instead got mealy mouthed around it.

Now, feel free to go meta Pere and find me a town game with him both advancing a derp tell *and* not backing it up loudly if called on it as being derp.
That's the case.

That is the question.

The explanation is

Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch.

Instead of attacking me for that explanation, why don't you explain why it's wrong for me to think that way. Explain why my logic does not how true.

[PeregrineV]

EBWOP:

Right now, my final thoughts are that I support both wagons if and until I get a satisfactory explanation from Pere - that is, an answer which isn't a) silence or b) semantics.

The question being......

You should read less in ISO and more in context.

Who game so far has been in context except when back reading. ISO work comes after scumflips.

Can you then walk me through why being nonsensical merits this large wagon?

That's the bit I haven't got this whole game.

The point is that he is advancing it as a serious and legit tell.
Was asked to explain it and didn't even defend the tell, but instead got mealy mouthed around it.

Now, feel free to go meta Pere and find me a town game with him both advancing a derp tell *and* not backing it up loudly if called on it as being derp.
That's the case.

That is the question.

The explanation is

Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch.

Instead of attacking me for that explanation, why don't you explain why it's wrong for me to think that way. Explain why my logic does not hold true.

[PeregrineV]

My issue is that someone said 'hey, barring multiball this makes sense"
And I said 'there is no reason to rule out multiball, I find it safe to presume it'
And you're like 'dat makes Thor scum if this is multiball!'

I suppose to be fair I should add 'makes him scum if this is multiball' as that is what you said - but it still fails to make any sense as something to decide there considering the conversation.
And when asked about it you just repeat your quote and act like there's nothing strange in believing what you claim to believe.
I think there is, and at least a few people think you could explain it better.

Yes, corrected for you.

And I think I asked the question-

Why

is it strange to believe what I claimed?

[PeregrineV]

Ugh.

Pere, will you please fucking explain yourself?

PEdit: Your explanation doesn't make sense because you were independently scumreading Thor for saying it in your readslist despite multiball confirmation, iirc.

I'm sorry TSO,

BUT WHERE HAS THE GAME BEEN CONFIRMED TO HAVE 2 SCUMTEAMS. GIVE ME THE POST AND I'LL SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THOR.

[PeregrineV]

Ugh.

Pere, will you please fucking explain yourself?

PEdit: Your explanation doesn't make sense because you were

independently scumreading

Thor for saying it in your readslist despite multiball confirmation, iirc.

Kind of used to that, so

not a full on scumread

for that at this point.

Perhaps quoting me would be more productive, so we are talking about the same things.

I said it was statements like that which made me uncomfortable leaving him as a town read. He was falling back to null, and since I'm town, I can say whatever I'm feeling/thinking/whatever and let people take it as they may. I tried to give examples which caused those reads to develop, and did so for Aneninen, Scripten, Thor, and Goofyd00d.

[PeregrineV]

I therefore conclude that

part of your case on my is me calling you out for saying multiball is a safe assumption

.
Is this conclusion inccorect?

No, I would agree that you calling me out is part of my case on you - I have said so on numerous occasions.

I think I said, should there be 2 scumteams, I will be pushing strongly for a Thor lynch. Given that 25% of 21-player large games have 2 scumteams, it seems the single-scum reponse would be to ignore or say "good luck with that" and the town response would be to ignore or say "good luck with that."
What I did not expect was "Well they said it it too!" defense.
Axle done detailed it, there is a difference in how it was said in in the context and conviction.
Which takes me back to , "if there are 2 scumteams, I'llbe looking at Thor."

It's actually setting a future condition which may or may not come true, and was but a single read of 20 other players.

This fails, yet again, to actually justify the tell nor to justify how what I did qualifies it as a tell and is not an explanation of the tell.
Though I will admit you did expand somewhat into 'Thor reacting negatively to a unexplained and nonsensical case equates to him being scummier' which *is* something new, but is also nothing about the original tell.

Considering I have little idea on where you stand on the other 19 players, you could be not-lazy and tell us who is scum with me.

Aeronaut - lurksack
Boonskiies - lurksack, begrudingly shifting to town due to Dave, but still a useless slot.
Cho - Lurksack.
GrayFoxxxx - Lurksack.
Egg - Townish
hephaestus - burning newb - no real vibe yet, still trying to even get him to commit to opinions.
Scripten - I can remember having an opinion on him but can't recall what it is. If I was asked about him I'd ISO myself and repeat whatever I said last (townish?)
TobyLoby - Lurksack.

I want to talk about these.

Aeronaut- Yes. Not sure if alt or hydra or neither, but admittedly higher expectations
Boon- How does Dave make Boon more town?
Cho- what about early content as opposed to current lurking?
Grayfoxx- What did you think about Csar?
Egg- Is that more for in-thread play or the neighborhood posting?
hephaestus- to my memory he has like 5 posts. Why is he not a lurkersack?
Scripten- Yes, my Scripten vote caused the PeregrineV vote. You townread him because:

My read on him is more one of gut and 'I agree with that' but I like how he singled out Tier as looking town and didn't mention GM - which is where I'm at and feels a logical town place to be rather than a scum looking to toss out some easy town reads.

Considering the quality and content level of his other 26 posts, it really feels like your reaching to give a townread on him. Because it seems based on 362, which has not been repeated, reiterated, investigated, etc. since that post.
TobyLoby- had some posting before lurk/replace. Thoughts based on those posts?

[PeregrineV]

Okay.
Vote Pere?

Horrible idea.

[PeregrineV]

And I told you I was buddying you - so you should react to that or not.

vote:Thor

Why Thor over Scripten?

[PeregrineV]

The issue is - you are right, TSO is talking a bit of gak and not backing it up.
However, I would like to point out that is exactly the case on Pere - exactly. Pere said something was scummy, then had to start talking in circles to back it up.
The only big difference is that TSO's thing...yeah, maybe he did decide to just generically fluff off about Anemian in a generic way.
Do you have an explanation for why Pere would do what he did?

Also, considering they are both the same case, and I agree with both of them - why *don't* you like my Pere case exactly?

I'll be the first to state I don't really understand your "Pere case".

[PeregrineV]

The issue is - you are right, TSO is talking a bit of gak and not backing it up.
However, I would like to point out that is exactly the case on Pere - exactly. Pere said something was scummy, then had to start talking in circles to back it up.
The only big difference is that TSO's thing...yeah, maybe he did decide to just generically fluff off about Anemian in a generic way.
Do you have an explanation for why Pere would do what he did?

Also, considering they are both the same case, and I agree with both of them - why *don't* you like my Pere case exactly?

I'll be the first to state I don't really understand your "Pere case".

Granted, I was thinking 477, but I think you've came up with a different one.

[PeregrineV]

While you state it is exactly the same, it really isn't from my point of view.

Given the knowledge I had, knowledge = (one bit is i have read my role PM, and another bit is I had very little idea that the game might reasonably likely be multiball.)
When he raised the point that perhaps you had TMI, it looked interesting to me, and I AM town. So its certain for me that it could look interesting to a towny.
My best guess was the odds on Thor making TMI slip like that as scum were so low that the towny explanation was bound to exist and Thor would know what it was whether he was town or scum.

Okay - would you have dodged explaining that if you were him?
If no - then how does this matter?

<---what is this point of this question. Rephrase it, because it sounds like you are telling Axel to "let it go"

.

I did say this.

Spoiler: Where I said that

-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.). However, I don't think it is in your nature to "slip", nor to be so bold nor so brazen about possibly having a scumrole. So, as stated before,

The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.

Also at one point, you were adding into your case that PereV didn't jump at the other speakers on Multiball. That was BS kinda in that their comments were very different.
They were very different worse in that they made them out of thin air, but yours was different in the level of certainty expressed. How you seemed to overlook those differences is ? to me.
Feels like stitching up, either via you tunnelling or otherwise.

My "certainty"?

Yes, as explaioned by Axel in 812.

Describe my certainty and how it is scummy, again.

Why do you need this explained again? Every explaination has you trying to twist it in some way.
How about you explain why it's not scummy to say "It's a safe assumption it's multiball." given all of the public knowledge.

Because what I said is "I find it safe to presume multiball" in answer to someone saying "if it's not multiball this logic makes sense"
We also showed, via research, that over 50% of Larges are multiball.

As defined by Thor, not by the wiki.

It also shows that I was using the term multiball to refer to SKs as the point was about scum/scum interaction.
So how is that "certain" in a scummy way?
Because Pere agrees with you - but he can't describe it to anyone.
Maybe you can help him out?

Actually, I did, even if poorly. Axle did it better and now you

still

don't understand how your comment can be construed as scummy?

[PeregrineV]

Which part confuses you? I've explained it to others and had them agree what you did was scummy - so clearly the basic explanation exists and is cohesive. So where does it lose you?

Give it to me so that a 6-year old can understand it.

[PeregrineV]

It is inherently unscummy because there is no suggested inside knowledge in the comment and also the comment flowed naturally from the conversation I was having at the time suggesting no strange focus on multiball either - ergo, it was a natural comment to make and also showed no inside knowledge.

Why is it scummy again?

It did suggest inside knowledge. You didn't "willing to bet there is an SK" or anything of the sort. You used vocabulary that indicated one thing, and are now arguing that you meant something else. Was there an SK mention in your Nero conversation that I missed?
No?
Then why should I "know" that you meant that and not the mafiascum definition of multiball.

That is why the original statement is scummy, and you trying to act like I'm the idiot is also scummy.

[PeregrineV]

How about this - why don't you explain what my town response should have been to Nero after he commented that his clearing made sense as long as it wasn't multiball (which, incidentally, also shows he was using multiball to reference SKs). What was my town response supposed to be if I thought that it wasn't certain we lacked multiscum or SK? Or, explain why, as town, I should ave been convinced that there was no reason to consider this in scumhunting? Or show why it's scummy if I choose to do so? Or...y'know, anything, besides the empty stuff you have said.

Nero was using multiball to refernce SKs?

(260)

Nero:

baring multiball, I'd know his alignment and thus would have no need to be wishy washy.

How would Nero the SK know anyone's alignment?
Sounds like he means multiple scum teams, where scumteam A would have to search for scumteam B.

As for what your response should have been? Whatever you want.

The short is, if you suspect Nero, then you suspect him, and say why he is scummy.
If you think he is not scummy, then you accept his premise for now. Say so or not.
If you think he is null, you could say nothing, or explain that should the game be multi-ball, then you will get back to him (kind of like I did).

Saying

Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption

gets a "If this game turns out to be multi-ball, Thor should get a closer look." from me.

And earns me 7 or 8 votes.

[PeregrineV]

Pere looks like a scum fuck to me.

Well, you frankly haven't done a drop of scumhunting, so you'll understand if I assign your opinion it's due consideration.

[PeregrineV]

Pere, where you not caught up at the point of making the readslist?

I was caught up when I made the readslist. The only thing added that was not on the readslist (501) was increased suspicion of Scripten while I was making the reads list because his vote caused such a backlash yet no one could explain why he was town(500).

[PeregrineV]

Spoiler: for pere, my love

catch-up sorta finished.

Boon, claim your role if it confirms multiball.

As much as I hate voting with thor, peregrine's read on thor for the multiball comment is actually scummy as fuck.

VOTE: pere
Shit.

closer looks at anen, muffin and iza coming up tomorrow.

Quote my read on Thor to show you understand it.

Sure, sunshine.

19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.

I still don't like the fact that you found Thor's 'multiball is a safe assumption' as too strong for town.

At least three people who read his situation with me have come back with scummy - and multiple others are at least voting him.
Why is your read null?

Meh, this multiball shitstorm means nothing to me tbh. Getting a few scummy vibes from his ISO but I'm not so sure you're town either.

I like this palyer. Do more shit tho.

According to history, randomly, there is a 75% to not be two scumteams, so once again the fuss raised about my read is not proportionate to the read itself.

[PeregrineV]

Another empty post by scripten. This happens too often. I've played with town-him before, in which he very clearly stated opinions, took sides and was very proactive.

They are all like that, even when directly asked questions there are words but not answers.

[PeregrineV]

You're quite fond of that history-based read, aren't you? While the historical proof only came after the fuss, am I right?

Actually, given the number of these games I played in, and the fact it's 21 players, I immediately thought it unlikely to have 2 scumteams (hence the Thor statement). Thor pretty much challenged that assertion, so I pulled the games.

So proof, yes, because it was requested. Opinion was part of the the 501.

[PeregrineV]

As I said in the post you quoted while making this post, I had no issues with you sheeping at Izar. I was trying to understand your position. It seems that you claim to have mostly voted for lolreactions and failed to show us what reactions you got (unless I missed that part, which is entirely possible and if so please point me in that direction). And as I also said, there's possible scum motivation in adding momentum after a case is made if Script is town and you are scum. As for my specific read on Script, I've started to lean more town now that he's started posting some pretty good content. I liked Izar's case at the time it was made, but those points aren't really relevant anymore.

Reactions to my Scripten vote
376
397
418
497
499
500

Spoiler: Scripten's posts at the time of my vote

I have had a lot of beer tonight.

VOTE: ote Thor

He's a thor.

I now support Csaro's lynch also.

Scripten's drunk post is also a policy lynch.

People should vote one or the other, my RVS stage is over.

Policy lynchers should be policy lynched.

Thor vote is serious.

Also here. Really busy and currently in the max number of games I want to take on at a time.

Nobody is really pinging hard either way.

TSO vs. Csareo is a lot of reading and not a whole lot of enlightenment.Trying to figure out who's pushing it.

Have a few minor reads.

TSO seems mildly town. Toby and Tiershift feel town. (Tier feels quite town, in fact.)

Nero Cain looks a little suspicious. Cho feels like scum to me.

UNVOTE: Thor665
VOTE: Cho

Because the day is still young. In spirit.

So, in summary, a vote for Scripten caused a massive reaction of Scripten=town while the sum of the spoiler-ed posts indicate null at best.

[PeregrineV]

Bro I Smurfing hate your push on PV.

Bro, so what? What does that have to do with anything else you've said thus far?

What baffles me is that a wagon on you never gained traction.

Why should it have and who should have started it and didn't?

Your push is based off of the same null speculation PV's is on. What's worse is how your argument ends up boiling down to a semantic that can't be proven/disproven (well this is what I

really

meant by multiball). If that's not scum motivation, it's a Smurf measuring contest. I don't think it's a Smurf measuring contest.

I disagree with your assessment of what my case is.
My case has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with motive.
I have defended his case on me with semantics - the thing is, my semantics are backed up by evidence of what I was saying, wherein what I said only makes sense if I meant what I said I mean.
Pere has been told this and his repsonse has been "that's what you meant!?! Well...that's...that's shocking!!! Are you sure that's what you meant!?!" and basically nothing else.
Pere has still, apparently, been trying to understand my case on him - I have repeated it multiple times.
I have also explained the case to others, and had them understand it using the same words I am using with Pere - that makes me feel his "confusion" is a bit of a sham.

I have no idea what your issue with the case is, but I don't think you understand it because you're claiming it is something it clearly isn't - and the rest of your raised issues on me are, basically, complaining that other players didn't do something nonsensical and that I didn't have bad play.

Here's the case on Pere again.
He saw this conversation;

Nero: My read makes sense presuming it isn't multiball.
Thor: It makes sense to presume multiball and I have other issues with your case.
Pere: The way Thor mentioned multiball has certainty -

and if it's multiball he is scummy!

Thor: How does that make sense.
Pere: Because of the way you said it.
Thor: Which is?
Pere: With certainty.
Thor: Like?
Pere: Saying "it makes sense to presume multiball"
Thor: Which shows certainty how?
Pere: I'd like to debate your definition of multiball and ask you about other reads as a smokescreen for a while, while still failing to understand why you find this scummy.


It literally makes no sense, and he can't explain it, and my comment makes absolute sense in context with the conversation I was having.
Now, on a quick skim, taken out of context...yeah, maybe, I could maybe see that looking bad.
But upon any examination? It doesn't. It just flat out makes no sense at all.
And there is no semantics in the case - also at all.
And if you think there is you have read the case poorly and don't understand it.
Also, you have awkwardly dropped your rather terrible 'Thor bad lurksack reads' thing - which was also showing poor understanding of the game and the gamestate, and even why I ever gave those reads.

If this is a reaction test you are doing it poorly.
If this is a serious case - you better start backing up what you think you believe with evidence to show you are right.
There is too much of this game to waste on a newb derfing in here wanting to make a stink and making random conclusions based off non-standard meta.
Read the game, read the cases, start talking sense, stop wasting my time - I have literally said everything here multiple times and in multiple ways - you could have learned it all without doing...whatever the hell it is you think you are doing.

What are you doing?

I could continue to argue with you, but I've seen this before. Plus, you've managed to evolve your case/vote from 376 to 477 to whatever this is supposed to be. But, like the Scripten vote, overreaction to speculation is just not a town thing.

Vote: Thor

And I did claim, but since reading is sometimes happenstance,
Town Neighbor is a neighborhood with Egg (votes today-24, 40) and Thor (votes today- 23, 64, 132, 376)
Neighborhood opened and closed over weekend, so I have no posts. Thor has 10, Egg has 11.

[PeregrineV]

Pere, why is your entire reads list either scum vibes or started town but now scum? You realize there are town players in this game, right?

Noy sure what you mean. Here's my old list, so who started as town and is now scum (not entire list, to be sure).

My point is you are implying that quite a few players are either scum reads for you, or you imply somewhere that they could be scum. Here's your list with color coding on how I interpret your reads. Should be obvious, but red=scum, green=town, black=null. And, I freely admit that I'm redding any mention of scum because my point is that even your "town" reads seem to leave room for the thought that they are scum:

1. Aeronaut*- In some twist of irony has fewer posts than me. We'll see what the catchup police have to say about him, I suppose.
2. Alina- replaced? being replaced?
3.

Aneninen- early scumvibes. Later, saying and doing the right things, but taking the meticulous post-by-post approach with no analysis of the posts along with the stunningly empty conclusion of Pere is scum (418). This can easily be compared to Thor's 477 with actual reasons (even if wrong).
4. Boonskiies- Probably scum

5. Cho- thought the mafia claim was good discussion starter. However, it never went anywhere after that, nor was it used to start discussion. For that, downgraded from town-rvs to null (I think psychologically that when scum claim scum it helps relieve their conscious about being scum. If others take it as fake/humor, so much the better. In any scumclaim cases, esp. RVS, I look to motive) Nothing has improved the null read, including the wagon on him.

6. GrayfoxxxxCsareo- I liked for town at the start. That diminshed somewhat by the TSO tunnel. Grayfoxx is still got some town sheen, and has not degraded it any since taking over. We'll see how it goes.
7. davesaz- Early scumvibes. Improved somewhat, but still hits me when I read some of his posts. There is scumhunting there, but it seems of the cautious type.
8. Egg- Liked his early push on me. His later self-doubt I read somewhat as town, but keeping your vote there after expressing that doubt takes away the town cred. This is one I'm be exploring more of later.

9. Garmr- probably town.

10. goodmorning- Another player I usually start reading with a town bias towards their posts. So when I read them and feel icky, not a good sign. Leaning scum.
11. Goofyd00d- Early scumvibes. Some of the things he says are contradictions in and of themselves. (295 and 455 are examples)

12. hephaestus*- skimmed and will catchup later

13. Izariael- Already discussed. early townlean, but high expectations expected.

14. Muffin- Torn here. Outing neighborhood protown, but votes Cho as scum same post. claims I scumposted without a definition of why it's scumposting (very similar to Aneninen).

15. Nero Cain- early townvibes. We'll see if these stay.
16. PeregrineV- So town! My God, so town!

17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.

18. T S O- I think he's town this game. Probably means he's scum. Not my issue, but not voting him right now.

19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.
20. TierShift- very early scumvibe, went away slowly. I see peeks of town, but not enough. Null for now, looking for more.

21. TobyLoby- Early null. The styling of some of her posts I think is town, but their delivery and followup are not there. It's like a one-way questioning but I don't think I've seen responses to the responses to her questions. Slight null-scum, but waiting for a strong read to pop.

And actually, my disclaimer only applies to Aneninen, Gray, and Muffin. But I also gave you the benefit of the doubt on Cho, Nero, TSO, and Toby and greened your self read. So the numbers still come out about right, if not a little in your favor. So, I repeat my question. You realize there are town players in this game, right? I mean, even if you are town, this should be an eye opener. You should probably re-order the list from towniest to scummiest and figure out who your top scum reads are even if this means having a pile who you don't like, but have to admit are town. Another thing that stands out about this list:

Everyone on your wagon as of Page 7 is in red

. Do you honestly believe your 7 player wagon is ALL scum?

You are applying a lot more certainty to day1 reads than I am.
I doubt ALL my 8 person wagon is scum, but go look at the reasons given. I already did, and unfortunately for me Thor's vote parking momentum will lead to me lynch.

Unfortunately for you both, since I'm town, and scum being in our hood means it's one of you (or both when multi-ball happens-right, Thor? ), so hopefully the vig will take care of that tonight.

If you want to talk about specific players, probably best to ask. My initial reads are fairly outdated at this point.

[PeregrineV]

Explanation in #501 of Scripten suspicion also doesn't tally with it being just a sheep (it's also semantics). If the reasoning in #501 was real, why didn't he provide it when previously asked instead of going 'it was a sheep?'

Because staying on the current page and interacting with people while reading all the pages from the last time I posted is a thing.

Current posting was a vote on Scripten while I read from early game. When I caught up, 501.

[PeregrineV]

PerV, is this true? If so it changes my view of the post a bit.

It what true? There are quoted posts but not sure where they are from or who said them.

[PeregrineV]

I could continue to argue with you, but I've seen this before. Plus, you've managed to evolve your case/vote from 376 to 477 to whatever this is supposed to be. But, like the Scripten vote, overreaction to speculation is just not a town thing.

At least now you understand my case enough to vote me over it, I suppose this is progress.
.

I feel the opposite. If PV thought you were scummy enough to vote, he should have done that a long time ago.

I actually answered this many times. If 2 scumteams, then Thor is scum.

But, his amazing inability to understand the words that are coming out of my mouth (fingers) is just too convenient for Thor to be town.

[PeregrineV]

@Axle

- 1412- I took your post as saying the question was weird. but I've seen lots of weird questions, so you deciding to scumhunt Scripten based on on his question was not big deal.
You referring to the topic of his question in your answer makes sense if you read your post that way.

[PeregrineV]

I could continue to argue with you, but I've seen this before. Plus, you've managed to evolve your case/vote from 376 to 477 to whatever this is supposed to be. But, like the Scripten vote, overreaction to speculation is just not a town thing.

At least now you understand my case enough to vote me over it, I suppose this is progress.
.

I feel the opposite. If PV thought you were scummy enough to vote, he should have done that a long time ago.

I actually answered this many times. If 2 scumteams, then Thor is scum.

But, his amazing inability to understand the words that are coming out of my mouth (fingers) is just too convenient for Thor to be town.

Sorry about the quote cascade - phone post.

That's not an answer to that accusation at all. Thor's behaviour hasn't changed over the last fifteen or so pages. If it's scummy now, it was scummy on page 25 or whatever.

Also, why have you never once in this argument considered what to me was the obvious reading of Thor's post - that he was

sincerely mistaken

about how common multiball is?

Then IF it turns out to be 2 SCUMTEAMS, then he is more than capable of explaining it then, assuming he is 1)alive, 2)not obvtown, 3)anyone cares what I posted.

Thor's behavior when I posted 501 was way less scummy than his inability to understand anything I say at post 1449. Hell, you seem to get it.

[PeregrineV]

PV: NO! You still haven't answered the question of why you assumed insider knowledge rather than error.

@The Fonz- YES!
I assumed nothing. I stipulated that IF THERE ARE 2 SCUMTEAMS, IT'S A SAFE ASSUMPTION THAT THOR HAS INSIDER KNOWLEDGE as one of 20 reads I had in the game.
Did someone take a single piece of a single read on a single player and blow it out of proportion while tunring it into a reason to scumread me? Yes.
Do I now care to continue discussing it? No, I'm merely doing you the courtesy since you just replaced in and *might* be town.

"Most games this big have multiscum. So it's safe to assume it, therefore we can't rule out two players both being scum even if their interactions appear unlikely from teammates."

Give me literally ANY possible Thor thought process that makes even close to as much sense as the above and is compatible with your allegations.

Guess what, I made no allegations. I made stipulations based on unknown data. And they were stipulations for my future actions.
I suggest you stop arguing with me (a scumread of yours) and figure out either a)your next mislynch or b)your next move when I flip town.

Otherwise, you want to talk about something else, I'll do that too.

[PeregrineV]

@PergerineV: How do you feel about your actions in the game so far? Do you think you are effectively scumhunting? Why or why not?

It's day1. I gave thoughts on 20 players, because that's all we have to go on today.

Effective? Who knows. Pretty sure I have fewer townreads than I'd like, and even they are more faith-based than anything else. I have definitely raised some points about certain players and their actions/reactions to me. However, since I will flip town and there will be a whole slew of new info, most of what I said today will mean less as the game progresses.

So, I will say I'm effectively

trying

to scumhunt, but my day1 effectiveness at catching scum is meh at best.

[PeregrineV]

@Fonz: I must keep missing it; which post does Pergerine admit Thor wouldn't slip?

Post 611,

my

next-to-the-last paragraph.

[PeregrineV]

Because I don't like the noise PV and Thor are making over the multiball argument. GM wasn't contributing to that noise, but still made it elsewhere.

Kinda makes you look bad too tbh. I at least have meta of you getting into shitfests with Csaero.

A reads list or some other sort of proof you don't have a death tunnel on Aneninen would also be nice.

On my side, I like to argue, so I'll go way beyond when I should stop arguing with Thor (or most players).

Here's our last game where me-mason and CTD-mason were going back and forth with town-Thor.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=38092

goodmorning is probably best investigated.

[PeregrineV]

Pere, who do you want dead today?

At this point, it will probably be me.

My vote on Scripten triggered too much for a simple vote. I'd want to lynch him.

Thor arguing like this I can see from town Thor, but the topic/reason/trigger was also insignificant. I'd lynch him. (But part of me wants to wait until multiball gets confirmed )

Egg for vote-parking. Unless someone can point out town-Egg doing this, classic scumtell.

Lurkers.

[PeregrineV]

Pere, who do you want dead today?

At this point, it will probably be me.

My vote on Scripten triggered too much for a simple vote. I'd want to lynch him.

Thor arguing like this I can see from town Thor, but the topic/reason/trigger was also insignificant. I'd lynch him. (But part of me wants to wait until multiball gets confirmed )

Egg for vote-parking. Unless someone can point out town-Egg doing this, classic scumtell.

Lurkers.

I'm ISO'ing your wagon right now and Muffin is probably vote parking worse than Egg yet was never mentioned.

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303
397

He voted 3x more people than Egg.

But since you brought it up, ISOed me and CTRL+F "Muffin", what did you find?

[PeregrineV]

@thor: your case is sound and valid as far as I can tell but it's beating the rotting remains of a dead horse and cousing apathy. If you don't see any other scumtells in him (or opportunities to dig for additional scumtells) what about this particular instance do you think could in be causing something worth going on about for this long?

Ummm;

1. Because it is not causing apathy - there was apathy before I started this case and failure to create any wagons prior to it as well.
2. It cured apathy by giving us an actual wagon.
3. If I catch scum being scummy - I point that out. Whether or not you like the case does nothing to adjust that it is a valid and self-contained case.
4. I have pointed out other issues with Pere, that doesn't change what the biggest issue is.
5. Also, in case you missed it, he is playing super evasive since I started in on this - and I have been after him 100% when he does pop through, so complaining that I'm not digging is not being aware of the gamestate and annoying to me.
6. You have failed to suggest why my case isn't good enough even while now admitting it is sound and valid... .
7. I think it's worth going after because it's a very good case and Pere is acting sketchy as regards it.

1. Your "case" is saying anything I post is scummy. You don't back it up, and apparently don't have to. Go you.
2. And complete lack of counterwagon. This indicates caught scum to you.
3. Not really. Everyone else is town. If you have any scumreads besides me, I've yet to see them. If you've found any associative tells with scum-me, I've yet to see them. You are carefully not calling anyone saying "Pere might not be scum" scummy either.
4. You linked back to your own post, basically convoluted saying that the fact I question you makes me scummy. Go you.
5. I've been pretty frank and forward, all without using Smurf language. You've been tunneling and changing your story and been pretty evasive about pretty much a single sentence I posted.
6. Your "case" is complete and utter garbage, and the fact you

voted me for voting Scripten

should not be lost after my flip.
7. I had a better case in Ikuraga (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6092463) but I recognized it's flaws (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6096029) because I was town. Yours has been scummed up and while not direct OMGUS, definitely reeks of it.

[PeregrineV]

Ooooh, and I almost forgot;

8. Your case is based around the idea "we need a counter to Pere wagon, and Thor should have had a wagon put upon him...for reasons!"

Did you fail to note what page my Pere wagon started on?
Did you fail to note that there was literally no other wagon before or since?
Yet you think the Pere wagon caused apathy even though your case could apply to anyone who started a wagon...yet there is no one else it applies to besides me?
Yeah.

8. It's at least as good if not better than yours, and if you get enough of a wagon and vigged and are town, we'll laugh in the dead thread while they lynch Egg.

Good times!

[PeregrineV]

Well, a couple of those are actually quite explicit and not vague at all.
And I don't see the point you're trying to make regardless.

6. If he made a mistake he had plenty of time to at least discuss why he believed in that mistake. Instead he got dodgy - was that also a mistake on his part?

5. Which do you think is the more likely response from a town Pere who thinks he's right? How about from a scum Pere that doesn't?

6. No mistake.

I still believe that if there are 2 scumteams, Thor is likely scum

(this was the initial thought- now that has gone up to 100% chance).

5. If I think I'm right, I say so. If I'm scum and think I'm right, I say so. If I'm wrong, then I

probably

say so.

[PeregrineV]

1. Your "case" is saying anything I post is scummy. You don't back it up, and apparently don't have to. Go you.
2. And complete lack of counterwagon. This indicates caught scum to you.
3. Not really. Everyone else is town. If you have any scumreads besides me, I've yet to see them. If you've found any associative tells with scum-me, I've yet to see them. You are carefully not calling anyone saying "Pere might not be scum" scummy either.
4. You linked back to your own post, basically convoluted saying that the fact I question you makes me scummy. Go you.
5. I've been pretty frank and forward, all without using Smurf language. You've been tunneling and changing your story and been pretty evasive about pretty much a single sentence I posted.
6. Your "case" is complete and utter garbage, and the fact you

voted me for voting Scripten

should not be lost after my flip.
7. I had a better case in Ikuraga (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6092463) but I recognized it's flaws (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6096029) because I was town. Yours has been scummed up and while not direct OMGUS, definitely reeks of it.

1. My case isn't that, and it's funny that you think so because other people seem to understand that and FLubber is calling me scummy for *not* doing that, apparently.
2. Functionally, the only counterwagon that exists is the one trying to be formed on me - yes, that indicates scum to me.
3. I do not use associatives Day 1 prior to a flip. You are correct, I am not calling anyone calling you town scum at this point - how shockingly evil of me.
4. This is a shallow and untrue statement with little relation as a response.
5. I have not changed my story - you have claimed I have and I have repeatedly noted that I have not. Why does no one else believe you if this is happening? This is a lie.
6. I voted you for having an empty vote on Scripten - I am willing to live with whatever consequences that brings upon me.
7. ...what? You're calling my vote an OMGUS of you? While also saying that I voted you for voting Scripten? I honestly do not follow this comment.

1. Players can "agree" with you without reading or understanding your "case". You know lazy town does it as well as scum. You've not questioned anyone about their understanding of your "case" except me, and I've said I don't see it. Flubber giving it actual attention means he's probably seeing the same issues with it.

2. Get real, it's not a counterwagon and you know it.

3. Your certainty that I'm scum- is it a "safe assumption", stronger than that, or weaker than that?

4. I asked you to explain it like I was 6 (1180),

Spoiler: Your answer

viewtopic.php?p=6270527#p6270527

5. Sure you did.

Spoiler: Post 1366

I could continue to argue with you, but I've seen this before. Plus, you've managed to evolve your case/vote from 376 to 477 to whatever this is supposed to be. But, like the Scripten vote, overreaction to speculation is just not a town thing.

6. And haven't really explained why in the context of 1365

7. Read #5 Evolving Cases. Then,

Spoiler: Read this

19. Thor665-

early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.

It is inherently unscummy because there is no suggested inside knowledge in the comment and also the comment flowed naturally from the conversation I was having at the time suggesting no strange focus on multiball either - ergo, it was a natural comment to make and also showed no inside knowledge.

5. If I think I'm right, I say so. If I'm scum and think I'm right, I say so. If I'm wrong, then I

probably

say so.

That sounds like lynchable evidence to me

[PeregrineV]

@Pere and thor

I think I'm falling asleep with this thor vs Pere thing can't you two resolve this.
You could put up a final case on each other then wait for like 3-6 days while focusing on other things then come back after providing reads and pushing other people. Whats the point of clogging up day 1 with just a case on one person. Your just filling walls upon walls and you stop addressing your views on other people with this tunneling.

Each person focussed on certain aspects of my reads they did not like, and then we talked about it.

I've given my reads, not changed much. Look at my wagon, the reasons people are on it, and any back and forth between me and them (except Thor- which you've indicated you read).

Just so we know you DO understand, what is Thor's "case" on me?

[PeregrineV]

@Pere and thor

I think I'm falling asleep with this thor vs Pere thing can't you two resolve this.
You could put up a final case on each other then wait for like 3-6 days while focusing on other things then come back after providing reads and pushing other people. Whats the point of clogging up day 1 with just a case on one person. Your just filling walls upon walls and you stop addressing your views on other people with this tunneling.

Each person focussed on certain aspects of my reads they did not like, and then we talked about it.

I've given my reads, not changed much. Look at my wagon, the reasons people are on it, and any back and forth between me and them (except Thor- which you've indicated you read).

Just so we know you DO understand, what is Thor's "case" on me?

I don't think you get to naked vote at this stage of the game - reads and thoughts please.

It's not naked, it's more an acceptance that Izraeil probably knows better than I at this point, and last time I thought they were scum, ignored them, and we lost.

Of course, an actual read will give me a better idea. Is there a reason you think he is particularly town?

It started because you sheeped Izareal right. The fact you pretty much started the game around 1:18 am my time in post 366 and then voted scrip in post

369

(damn she fine ) just a mere 30 mins latter means you probably just gave the 14 pages a quick read saw some one you thought was towny and sheeped there vote because you were lazy. It's not the best thing to do as town but it's understandable and not a big omg his scum thing.

lol

What about his current reasons?

[PeregrineV]

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397

He voted 3x more people than Egg.

But since you brought it up, ISOed me and CTRL+F "Muffin", what did you find?

I ISO'd Muffin. His vote isn't sitting for as long as Egg's, but Egg pushed you several times after his vote, and made stronger pushes than Muffin. Both votes are equally "stale" IMO.

But Egg has pushed nothing else. And his initial vote was vague.

Muffin hasn't done much more since 521

[PeregrineV]

Wait we only have 3 days left till dead fuck that went by fast.

A reminder that the deadline is essentially suspended until I find replacements.

Wow. Cool.

Now I can insist on those Scripten townreads that I despaired of getting.

[PeregrineV]

Grrr. PV is right about one thing - It's time to stop engaging with him. That last post addressed to me manages the impressive feat of pushing all my buttons, and completely dodging the concerns I have by denying he did something that the thread plainly shows him doing.

You started it by replacing in and voting the largest wagon based on a page 6 post. C'mon, now....

And we can talk about my answer pushing all of your buttons. Let's talk about it.

[PeregrineV]

I don't think it does. I agree that it is initially possible PV-town, based on a belief that '21 players' was in no way a reason to believe multiball likely, then thought 'Well what else could make him assume that? Insider knowledge!' That's derpy, but possible. Thor's case, although he was already voting PV for other reasons, is that Nero was the first person to make an assumption about multiball, and PV was being inconsistent. Note also that the conditionality in PV's post is inconsistent: He doesn't suspect Thor if it's not multiball. This means he's accepting the possibility of Thor being town making a bad assumption, in the non-multiball case.

Since town wouldn't have insider knowledge either way, his logic requires him to accept the possibility of Thor being a townie making a bad assumption even if it IS multiball

. So it requires a combo of illogic and ignoring things to fit the case you want to make.

This is about as close to the mark as I've seen anyone get.

The bolded is the reason it was a comment among 20 and not a reason to pursue a Thor lynch, nor even something that I would waste more time looking into until it became relevant, if ever.

There was never a case, there was what amounted to squinty eyes at Thor (and most other players for various reasons) but hey, people now have the mountain they want.

Anyone want to discuss details, please refer to this as the startling point.

[PeregrineV]

1. Your "case" is saying anything I post is scummy. You don't back it up, and apparently don't have to. Go you.
2. And complete lack of counterwagon. This indicates caught scum to you.
3. Not really. Everyone else is town. If you have any scumreads besides me, I've yet to see them. If you've found any associative tells with scum-me, I've yet to see them. You are carefully not calling anyone saying "Pere might not be scum" scummy either.
4. You linked back to your own post, basically convoluted saying that the fact I question you makes me scummy. Go you.
5. I've been pretty frank and forward, all without using Smurf language. You've been tunneling and changing your story and been pretty evasive about pretty much a single sentence I posted.
6. Your "case" is complete and utter garbage, and the fact you

voted me for voting Scripten

should not be lost after my flip.
7. I had a better case in Ikuraga (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6092463) but I recognized it's flaws (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6096029) because I was town. Yours has been scummed up and while not direct OMGUS, definitely reeks of it.

1. My case isn't that, and it's funny that you think so because other people seem to understand that and FLubber is calling me scummy for *not* doing that, apparently.
2. Functionally, the only counterwagon that exists is the one trying to be formed on me - yes, that indicates scum to me.
3. I do not use associatives Day 1 prior to a flip. You are correct, I am not calling anyone calling you town scum at this point - how shockingly evil of me.
4. This is a shallow and untrue statement with little relation as a response.
5. I have not changed my story - you have claimed I have and I have repeatedly noted that I have not. Why does no one else believe you if this is happening? This is a lie.
6. I voted you for having an empty vote on Scripten - I am willing to live with whatever consequences that brings upon me.
7. ...what? You're calling my vote an OMGUS of you? While also saying that I voted you for voting Scripten? I honestly do not follow this comment.

1. Players can "agree" with you without reading or understanding your "case". You know lazy town does it as well as scum. You've not questioned anyone about their understanding of your "case" except me, and I've said I don't see it. Flubber giving it actual attention means he's probably seeing the same issues with it.

2. Get real, it's not a counterwagon and you know it.

3. Your certainty that I'm scum- is it a "safe assumption", stronger than that, or weaker than that?

4. I asked you to explain it like I was 6 (1180),

Spoiler: Your answer

viewtopic.php?p=6270527#p6270527

5. Sure you did.

Spoiler: Post 1366

I could continue to argue with you, but I've seen this before. Plus, you've managed to evolve your case/vote from 376 to 477 to whatever this is supposed to be. But, like the Scripten vote, overreaction to speculation is just not a town thing.

6. And haven't really explained why in the context of 1365

7. Read #5 Evolving Cases. Then,

Spoiler: Read this

19. Thor665-

early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.

It is inherently unscummy because there is no suggested inside knowledge in the comment and also the comment flowed naturally from the conversation I was having at the time suggesting no strange focus on multiball either - ergo, it was a natural comment to make and also showed no inside knowledge.

5. If I think I'm right, I say so. If I'm scum and think I'm right, I say so. If I'm wrong, then I

probably

say so.

That sounds like lynchable evidence to me

1. I have convinced multiple players and discussed the case at length with them. I can think of at least two that I changed their minds about it, insomuch as they opposed it and then supported it.
2. Okay. So, then, with, in yoour opinion, multiple scum teams, how come I haven't even gotten close to L-1 on you yet if there isn't resistance?
3. This is a deflective jab with no purpose to it dodging how you were scum flailing in your last #3.
4. Okay...and that *is* explained like to a 6 year old. It was step by step. If you don't understand it it's up to *you* to explain where it lost you.
5. Quoting my case from before your multiball call out and then after it is hardly proof of me changing my story, and you know it and it is scummy you're trying to sell it like that.
6. There is no context there to explain.
7. Ah, so now we're complaining that, as I saw new information, I updated my reads? That is different than saying my "story changed". Very different. Like, not even in the same galaxy as a tell.

1. OK, who was not convinced of yuor magic bullet but then became coninced you were right?
2. I will flip town, and a deadline lynch gives the wagon hoppers more leeway, since "can't have no-lynch" will be acceptable at that point.
3. Not at all. You have no focus except on me. The source of that focus is my Scipten Vote, my "Thor could be scum", and your inability to understand why I think you can be scum. Since that is a poor waste of your time (as you will not move your vote off of me), then you can scumhunt others. If you have to include me, then scumhunt based of of either of my flips. If I'm town, then who is scum on my wagon. If I am scum, who is bussing on my wagon.
4. When I read it, I see you saying "How could Pere NOT be scummy, he called me scummy!" I expect that will be oversimplified for you, but there you have it.

Spoiler: 848 & 849

(848-849)
Have you ever played with Pere prior to this? I feel like you must have.

He is not only doing a slow start (which I might buy as town him) but is pairing it with sloppy reads and not really looking over the thread (note how he agreed that...whoever that was, Muffin?, who had earlier brought up multiball was scum after it was pointed out. But if he had actually read and also actually thought that was an issue (as shown by his reaction to me) he would have mentioned it.
If he had openly stated he was skimming/sipping stuff - no worries.
But he didn't, he chose to present like he read.
He was probably lying about that.
Why do you think town Pere would do that?
Also, in all seriousness, go back and read the *conversation* wherein I brought up multiball.
Not the post, the conversation, and ask yourself if it seemed scummy in any way particularly that I brought it up.
Then ask yourself why Pere thought it was scummy.
Then go and look at how I asked him to explain and the way (shifty and not answering) he chose to respond.

5. You voted me for reason A. I finish my reading, and give my thoughts on players. I'm then scummy for reason B. We talk about your multiball comment. I'm now scummy for reason C. Is this incorrect?

6. Yes, there is. 376 was your reaction to my Scripten vote. Yuo had a "gut" townread on him based on these posts- (1365)28-39-301-362 & 364. I want to know how those posts influenced your gut to a townread.

7. Your "read" on me went from "Scum for A" to Scum for B to Scum for C. That doesn't sound like a read change, since I stayed scum. Sounds like reason changes. Between A and B, I posted 501, where you "could be scum if multiball".

If you bother responding, keep the history so people can read in context. TIA

[PeregrineV]

@PereV

Hi.

It is important you read the words that I say in this post and respond to this post.
Do not try and explain your case/points against Thor to me, I read that already.

Your are a towny, you are trying to work the game out

(

or pretending to

)
(

ooo spooky colours

)

What is your current belief in how likely this game is to be multiball?
Why?

I don't think it's 2 scumteams.
I think there is an SK.

[PeregrineV]

Thor (assuming PereV will flip scum) is entirely within his rights and good towny play to be looking on the supporters of his own wagon to look for which ones might be bussing.

3. Not at all. You have no focus except on me. The source of that focus is my Scipten Vote, my "Thor could be scum", and your inability to understand why I think you can be scum. Since that is a poor waste of your time (as you will not move your vote off of me), then you can scumhunt others. If you have to include me,

then scumhunt based of of either of my flips. If I'm town, then who is scum on my wagon. If I am scum, who is bussing on my wagon.

[PeregrineV]

@Pere - the answer to pretty much all your things is "look at my ISO" but I will address the bolded thing.

You claim I have "changed" my read.

Please describe the issue I have raised about you that I have, at any point, shied away from and no longer claimed it was part of my case?
Because I can think of two things I have mentioned.

1. You being superficial and lazy distanced - i.e. not scumhunting.
2. The multiball tell and the logic behind it.

First off, #2 is part and parcel of #1, it is just a clear way to show it.
Second off, I have never denied having both issues nor have I claimed to drop one. I will agree #1 was not well formed, and could be described as 'gut' to some level - but I never backed off that stance.
You are scum and trying to paint me as wavery in my attack in order to make it look weak.

The attack is not weak, and I haven't dropped or dodged off from anything I have said about you.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Please.

Ok. Thank you for your service to the town.

[PeregrineV]

Good.

Fuck the multiball read.

You're beating the maggots growing in the dead horse.

[PeregrineV]

and no I want to talk to PereV first, I have a question I want to ask, and rather clearly I want to ask them while he doesn't know the answers to your questions.

You got a few hours today, but I'll be busy Saturday and weekends are mostly not good for me anyway.

What's the question?

[PeregrineV]

Still can't see what everyone is so enamored of. I want his gift for all my scumgames.

Vote: Scripten

[PeregrineV]

Still limited access today- but I'll try to read up.

[PeregrineV]

@PereV
ta but, you missed a bit. why

Because standard for a 20 player game is 5. (25%)
Standard for a 24 player game is 6. (25%)

Putting 21 players in with 6 mafia is scumsided.
Putting 21 players with 5 mafia is townsided.
21 players with 5 mafia and an SK balances that, as the SK will kill mafia & town depending on the gamestate.

Splitting up mafia into 2 teams is somewhat of a balancer, but with 24 player games earning 2 teams of 4 (16:4:4) is 33%, but also a higher chance for crosskills.

Setting up a 20 player mafia game with 2 scumteams (14:3:3) is 30% scum, but that is the same number as a base-24 player game so it feels very scumsided. Adding that +1 as a town helps alleviate it somewhat, but then makes it harder to balance/include an SK.

This is mostly speculation/opinion. My first thought was I don't remmeber seeing any or playing in any, and I've played a lot. So I checked, and posted the results of 21 player games with 2 scumteams.

[PeregrineV]

Thor is also Thor, he even ¨claims¨ that on his wiki page. Don´t get the comparison/similarity wrong, Thor is Thor not a VI. Its true thor has no focus except you, (you are the wagon he is driving D1, you think he should focus elsewhere as well? or is just commenting enough)
he has however I think engaged in current events. Deciding if thor is more obstinate single minded tunnely than usual (In My observation) is a difficult task. (Even thor doing, (minor) misquoting and hence misrepresenting things when prosecuting the case against you is Thor is Thor material, even if it is scum tell for some people)

@PereV
How sure are you that Thor is scum? why(ish) ( a little on why if there is any new reasons or if you prefer to say >read my filter< will do for this why) pretty sure, good answers (enough on topic words) and thats it.

I'm not. But, I'll give it to you from my PoV.
First, Thor focussed on a read of him and developed it into a read on me. I've seen scum do that often, and smoothly, but I don't think I've ever seen Thor do it. He lets people derp along while scumhunting, and eventually you realize no one buys it and you move on. Mine wasn't even that, but just an expression of suspicion. His reaction of arguing about it was little surprising, but Thor argues, so that's not too bad. But it turning into a scumread on me was not normal Thor.
This is doubly so because we share a neighborhood. I'd expect townThor to buddy up to scum-me to get in my good graces and then use my fake reads against me. It's much harder to BS in an intimate environment. Instead, it feels like he doesn't want that night interaction to happen.
Also, Thor being obtuse and totally not getting (or pretending not to get) my arguments also surprises me.
Furthermore, aside from a Scripten townread, I pretty much couldn't tell you where Thor stands on most other players. Considering I think town-Thor i mixing it up all about, this also makes me lean scum on him.

But all of this is not hard-coded, because we played another game where I thought he was scum and he was town (mini Marvel), and another where I was town PR and caught scum and was still eventually lynched with Thor's vote (he was town), so I kind of look more at how he says it instead of just what he says.

Does that answer your question?

(oops, one more, not really at you except you have the experience to know, how likely is it scum have day chat in this game/setup?. I know the games I have seen on this site tends not to have day chat, but i mainly have read smalls not run by this mod)

Games have been trending towards scum daytalk lately, on the given assumption that it's less powerful than it used to be.
However, I find that when neighborhoods do not have daychat, scum probably do not either (although the converse is not always true).
Also, scum may have conditional daytalk through an Encryptor, which means that once that role is removed, scum may talk at night only.

[PeregrineV]

The attack is not weak, and I haven't dropped or dodged off from anything I have said about you.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Please.

Ok. Thank you for your service to the town.

Just trimming this down to showcase what I said and what he answered.

[PeregrineV]

That was my answer to your question. Thor is town. He be town, because he ain't scum.

What about Egg?

What about me?

[PeregrineV]

That however does not stop him, refusing point blank to talk people. That rather large glaring internal inconsistency. Townies tend not to do things they despise, especially when those things are inherently scummy and anti town.

Lynch TSO Today

I've had these feelings before when playing with TSO. Yet, he somehow ends up the scum NK night1 or 2. I have yet to figure it out, but you might try pushing it once there is actual evidence or in a few game days to see if he ups his contribution.

[PeregrineV]

PV is just less colourful as scum, just is, he has less of a presence, it's meta but it's the only way I can read PV because I used to for several games always think hes scum so I just ignore his reasoning mostly because I never agree with him.

He posted meta showing why he believes what he believes it completely backed him up, you can't make that up, he obviously believes that you(royal you) shouldn't be assuming it's multiball in this sized game and his experience backs this argument up. It's not a good argument but meh, I don't really find his arguments good ever so whatever that is pretty moot.

Why didn't he accuse others? don't know, don't really care. Maybe because he thinks you specifically shouldn't think it's multiball.

Thanks, I think.

And yeah, Thor is the last player I ever thought I'd be linking a wiki definition for.

[PeregrineV]

Still can't see what everyone is so enamored of. I want his gift for all my scumgames.

Vote: Scripten

Why haven't you been able to articulate why Scripten is scum?

The only thing I can see is the "town cred" thing from like 65 pages ago. Which posts, specifically, demonstrate scum motivation from scripten?

I guess it's more hard to find town motivation in stuff like this:

So ready to vote PereV. (Btw uhm... muffin, your nickname for him MIGHT not be apropro. ) His (intentional(?)) misinterpretations and the fact that he's ready to vote Thor for discussing multiball are huge red flags. Does nobody else follow why the latter is so scummy?

Asking the question instead of explaining why it's scummy. and why I'm "ready to vote Thor" for "discussing multiball" and why that is "huge red flags".

Stuff like 606 is another oppputrinity for Scripten to describe in his own owords why Thor is right and I'm wrong, but he doesn't.

It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.

Holy shit, stuff like 615. I still have yet to hear why Scripten thinks my Thor suspicion is bad despite a direct question.

This seems to be saying the opposite of something, but makes little sense.

My point was that the discussion was centering on an argument over whether or not this game was multiball on one side, while the other side was examining the motivations behind the discussion. PeregrineV was accusing Thor of being scum for bringing up multiball, but Thor was not claiming that PeregrineV was scummy because he disagreed. There was this cognitive dissonance between what Thor was saying and what everyone else involved seemed to be hearing. He's since explained this better than I can. (After all, I'm not in his head.)

Aneninen: I did understand. My vote is on PeregrineV right now, if you have not noticed. What was weak about my explanation?

747: Another post where I am unsure of Scripten's opinion.
P1 "It's a null tell that is, IMO, pro-town."
P2: "Honestly, I don't really know very well how neighborhoods will factor into the game, but it seems pretty likely that having information about the neighborhoods will help nail scum."

Nero specs Scripten is scum in their hood: Another non answer (758) & hood reads-ish (803) (805)

1188 repeats the 615 question about scum and multiball (answered by thor in 620)

1250 looks like the start of the Axel-TSO conflict

His reason for voting me
1393-

Also, PereV felt obviously scummy to me. His naked vote and obvious sheeping of Izar (Who's been a fairly minor part of the game since.) were something, but it was really his reaction to Thor's push on him that made me vote him. The multiball discussion, at least from Thor's side, was not actually about multiball. It was calling out PereV on -really- scummy play. The more Thor pushed, the more PereV tried to keep the discussion on MB and setup speculation, just to push his idea that Thor should be auto-lynched if the game turned out to be multiball. I'm just amazed that so few people really caught on to it.

And yes, I realize that I'm mostly sheeping Thor's case. However, with there being so many people in this game, it's a lot tougher to push individual cases. I'm attempting to circumvent that by engaging players who have not really been pushed very much so far. I have a hunch that smarter scum will be lurking pretty hard this early on.

More reason for voting me.-1397

In summary, his reads seem to be
PeregrineV- scum
Thor- town
TSO- town
Boon- null
dave- null
Nero-null-scum
Flubber-null-town

[PeregrineV]

The thing is that he didn't want to. He tossed it out - I zeroed in on it, and he tried to re-phrase the situation.
So, no, I don't think he'd do it unless he believed it - I also don't think he believes it and didn't want to get into it and regrets tossing it in as a way to fluff up a fake read.

You said you didn't get it.

I guess you got it and now decided you didn't like it.

And I regret nothing- everything I posted was exact.

[PeregrineV]

With not even a single claim or L-1 on the table.

Claimed in 1366

[PeregrineV]

PereV:

We have lots of time. I'd like to see you talk about something other than the setup. Can you give thoughts on things other than trying to tunnel me or your 1v1 with Thor? What do you think of Fonz? You had a sort of interaction with him.

I expect town-Fonz to read the game and make an independent decision (see Slandaar). His jump on the largest wagon (even if me) based on post 300 or so was surprising.

Beyond that, look for logic fails for scum-Fonz (Cold War Mafia)

How about Axle? Do you think his playstyle is helpful for the town? Do you think his pushes are in the right direction?

I see where Axel is coming from, I had similar issues with TSO for many games (see earlier post).
His playstyle is meticulous, which I find refreshing or skippable, depending on my mood.

As long as he stays true to himself but can adjust his scumhunting if he figures out he is wrong (in general and for this game).

[PeregrineV]

Pere, what do you think about 1969?

It seems like a continuation of the Slandaar read in 1961. The reasons seem to be the opposite of why I'm a scumread (863), but maybe he just hates people catching up or calling them catch-up posts.

Either way, seems upset about the Goodmorning vote and the reason behind it.

Never mentions Aeronaut previously except once, so doubt they are scum together.

[PeregrineV]

No you weren't - you unvoted me in that post or immediately juxtaposed to it. Or was the unvote also sarcasm?

Because if you're town, despite your uselessness today, you'll be more useful (hopefully), in later days.

Scritpen, I felt, was a better vote, and more likely scum.

Since doing a full iso on him, it could be just differing views on how posting should be communicated. Every post of his I feel like his goal is to provide as little information as possible while still trying to look like he is. In summary of reading his posts, he does appear to have reads, with various reasons, on a few players. So maybe it's just me. Maybe it's not.

[PeregrineV]

I have continually asked you to explain it and have also presented it to the best of my understanding - if you think you can clarify something for me my standing question of 'explain the scumtell' remains open and unaddressed by you.

I find it believable that if you have a certain experience with games going a certain way you would think others with similar experience levels would think similarly, thus you not doing so when he thinks you would think similar to him appears scummy to him.

But it didn't in that way.
He said it was scummy if there were two scum teams. But if there was one scum team it would not be scummy.

If there are 2 scumteams, and Thor called it despite evidence to the contrary, Thor is either

1. Lucky town that got the setup right for reasons mortals will never fathom
2. Scum that already knows it

If there is 1 scumteam, and Thor makes a safe assumption there are two, Thor is either

3. Wrong town that made an incorrect assumption
4. Scum that is trying to make town look for more scumteams than there are

Since #4 makes no sense whatsoever, it 1 or 2 or 3. Since I doubt it's 1, and don't care if it's 3, #2 is the one that I need to focus on in determining townThor or scumThor.

Tell me again you still don't get it.

[PeregrineV]

And as well as that it's not like I'm even fucking townreading Peregrine anyway.

[PeregrineV]

As I said in the post you quoted while making this post, I had no issues with you sheeping at Izar. I was trying to understand your position. It seems that you claim to have mostly voted for lolreactions and failed to show us what reactions you got (unless I missed that part, which is entirely possible and if so please point me in that direction). And as I also said, there's possible scum motivation in adding momentum after a case is made if Script is town and you are scum. As for my specific read on Script, I've started to lean more town now that he's started posting some pretty good content. I liked Izar's case at the time it was made, but those points aren't really relevant anymore.

Reactions to my Scripten vote
376
397
418
497
499
500

Spoiler: Scripten's posts at the time of my vote

I have had a lot of beer tonight.

VOTE: ote Thor

He's a thor.

I now support Csaro's lynch also.

Scripten's drunk post is also a policy lynch.

People should vote one or the other, my RVS stage is over.

Policy lynchers should be policy lynched.

Thor vote is serious.

Also here. Really busy and currently in the max number of games I want to take on at a time.

Nobody is really pinging hard either way.

TSO vs. Csareo is a lot of reading and not a whole lot of enlightenment.Trying to figure out who's pushing it.

Have a few minor reads.

TSO seems mildly town. Toby and Tiershift feel town. (Tier feels quite town, in fact.)

Nero Cain looks a little suspicious. Cho feels like scum to me.

UNVOTE: Thor665
VOTE: Cho

Because the day is still young. In spirit.

So, in summary, a vote for Scripten caused a massive reaction of Scripten=town while the sum of the spoiler-ed posts indicate null at best.

Which of those reactions do you read as town? Which do you read as scum? Why do I have to drag this out of you if it was your own reaction test?

It's hard to see reading those 4 posts where Scritpen is so town to the three players that my single vote makes all three of them vote for me. Question it, sure. A vote by someone who is unhappy with their vote, sure.
So, I do not read any of the Thor, Muffin, or Anen reactions to me Scripten vote as town.
All three of them come across as scummy.
If I were sheeping onto some obvious town player, then, yeah, I kind of get it, dumb vote, sheeping new player, what gives.
But, I quoted his posts at the time of the reactions.
And it wasn't a reaction test, but since a reaction occurred, I examined the results.

[PeregrineV]

I'm not applying certainty. That's not the point. The point is that you are leaving room for more than half of the game to be scum. And yeah, it's probably outdated. I get that. Reads change. But this is where you stood at that point of the game and it was off to me. If you were to post a new reads list that was completely opposite of this one, it wouldn't make this one go away.

Yes. I guess I gave out too much information.

How does my list compare you yours?

Town: Me, Thor, Axle
Scum: Pere, Tier, Goodmorning

[PeregrineV]

If there are 2 scumteams, and Thor called it despite evidence to the contrary, Thor is either

1. Lucky town that got the setup right for reasons mortals will never fathom
2. Scum that already knows it

If there is 1 scumteam, and Thor makes a safe assumption there are two, Thor is either

3. Wrong town that made an incorrect assumption
4. Scum that is trying to make town look for more scumteams than there are

Since #4 makes no sense whatsoever, it 1 or 2 or 3. Since I doubt it's 1, and don't care if it's 3, #2 is the one that I need to focus on in determining townThor or scumThor.

Tell me again you still don't get it.

Well, first off, there is no evidence to the contrary.

(570)

Second, I only brought it up in a discussion here someone claimed their read made sense as long as there was no scum that scum didn't know the alignments of already, which brings into question how it is #2 or #4 in any case.

I guess you give more weight to the context of the discussion than I do. I went by your conclusion/assumption statement (261)

Third - you said you didn't think I'd slip, which rules out your #2 in any case.

Which is one reason to not pursue it, but there is no reason to ignore it. Plus, I could be wrong.

Fourth, #4 makes just as much sense as #2 especially when you toss in that even by your own understanding it is highly likely to have an SK in the setup. In fact, you're claiming this.

Could also have a vig. This part of the conjecture is not my point, it's yours.

Fifth, coming from someone who claims that there would be a likely SK - how were you planning to distinguish between SK and 2nd scumteam on Day 2 when you noted that I would be suspect on Day 2 if multiple kills happened?

Possibly flavor (kill vs stabbed), possibly croskills, who really cares, since it doesn't matter until and if it happens.

Sixth, I do not believe you did this much analysis of my commentary considering the other comments in a similar vein you missed, especially since one of them you later admitted would be scummy, if it was the biggest issue on me, why wasn't it an issue at all on him?

I need to spend a lot more time and mental effort figuring your alignment out than I do other people. As a result, you will probably be scrutinized more than some other players.

Seventh, with multiple occurrences of 'town could do this' (also known as 50% of your equation) especially since, if we add in SKs, I was actually right - and I showed you early on I was including SKs, why did it even become worth mention in the first place? You might as well have said 'Thor is posting, he might be scum' and would have had just as much validity to the tell - so why do you like this tell and think it is remotely accurate?

At some point, it will become obvious if it's an SK or 2 scumteams or both or neither. At that point, if other reasons have not dictated otherwise, then you would be a more likely scum candidate for your foreknowledge.

I still don't get it.

I know. How about now?

[PeregrineV]

This sounds like a town read. I suppose that makes sense. Do you think his pushes (discounting TSO) are worthwhile?

Does he have a non-TSO push? He seems to really like TSO for scum.

[PeregrineV]

When I find a scum read early on Day 1

Perhaps a walk through the mind of Egg on how you arrived at a scum read on me.

In the interest of full disclosure, you voted me in post 24 before I ever entered the game, so am keenly interested in the process of how you "find a scum read".

[PeregrineV]

pere wrote:
6. No mistake. I still believe that if there are 2 scumteams, Thor is likely scum (this was the initial thought- now that has gone up to 100% chance).


So you are either claiming a guilty on Day 1 of a normal game or using hyperbole. Why are you using hyperbole?

No, and no. How is anything I said exaggerated?

[PeregrineV]

This sounds like a town read. I suppose that makes sense. Do you think his pushes (discounting TSO) are worthwhile?

Does he have a non-TSO push? He seems to really like TSO for scum.

Sure, he's made pushes elsewhere. I take it from your reaction that you don't see them as being particularly stand-out. I agree.

I'll go back a and look later, but none stick out of my mind right now.

[PeregrineV]

I've poked and prodded at other people and found nothing but weak scum reads. And I know my initial vote was weak, especially seeing that there are other neighborhoods. Your later play just validated it.

[PeregrineV]

4. Boonskiies- Probably scum

can you explain what came before here that made you think "probably scum"
to be clear I interpet that statement at that time to mean More likely than every body labelled less strongly, (its an early D1 read),
but I am interested in where it came from?

He had 11 posts. 1 had content (464). He also voted and unvoted 2 people, one of which he revotes.

[PeregrineV]

Yeah, it's a weird habit I have - I look at the context of what is being said to decide if it is or is not scummy.
I'm cray-cray like that.

Since your pretty much in wait mode, when I flip town, who is the scum on my wagon?

[PeregrineV]

Pere, what do you think about 1969?

It seems like a continuation of the Slandaar read in 1961. The reasons seem to be the opposite of why I'm a scumread (863), but maybe he just hates people catching up or calling them catch-up posts.

Either way, seems upset about the Goodmorning vote and the reason behind it.

Never mentions Aeronaut previously except once, so doubt they are scum together.

I was talking in terms of townish-scummy, you don't need to describe what the post says.

I think it's scummish on the surface, but I'm not backchecking the links to check the allegations. So call it null, but I'll probably end up voting the Anen wagon since it;s the only counter to my own.

[PeregrineV]

Oh, snap, I mean nightkills info to see - I almost let slip that I have scum knowledge of only one nightkill.

Barring multiball, it's a safe assumption there may only be one nightkill or two.

[PeregrineV]

Pere brought up multiball - he is scummy if it's multiball.

Horrible argument. You're probably scum for that.

[PeregrineV]

I would be scummy if I was serious, I agree.

You might be scum for agreeing with scum.

[PeregrineV]

Vote: Aneninen

[PeregrineV]

Okay, can we stop this in its tracks, please? Because holy shit I do not want to read another fifty pages of this crap. Please.

Meh, I'm out of town this weekend, so everyone will have to entertain themselves.

@Aegor- V/LA Oct 24-27

[PeregrineV]

So we're lynching him now, right?

Hello, it starts tomorrow. Well, maybe tonight, since I have to pack.

[PeregrineV]

So?

Proper etiquette states that you talk about me AFTER I leave the room.

[PeregrineV]

Peregrine's jump on Anen is awful.

However, I still want Anen dead.

What do?

You mean, the viable counterwagon to me?

Yeah, it was gruesome.

[PeregrineV]

Thank God. I knew I could count and everyone to lynch me.

Hopefully, you'll read my shit until it comes out dated.

Town Neighbor, still.

[PeregrineV]

Time permitting I'll look at the wagon again, but, I'm kind of dead and disinclined, if you know what I mean.

[PeregrineV]

Thank God. I knew I could count and everyone to lynch me.

So that was the gameplan?
If you are town you may wish to examine that one

I have 173 posts on day1. I sometimes don't have that many the entire game, with 10 dead players to analyze. This wasn't a game of analysis, problem solving, or puzzle solving, it was a game of day1 guessing, fighting, and unfounded speculation.

My continued existence past day1 would have been something for scum to hang their hat one and throw a bunch of shit into the thread to cause apathy and derail scumwagons that might form.

So yes, once the lack of discussion and focus on nothing became the rule instead of the exception, it was best for town that I die.

[PeregrineV]

I tried PV

I know, but day1 lynches are good every once in a while. It keeps you on your toes, so to speak.