Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Wisdom]

Hai

VOTE: Not_Mafia

...need I explain? Obvious.

[Wisdom]

@Mod I am not listed in the alive players

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mathdino

Hi Newbie, how do you feel about voting Mathdino with us?

[Wisdom]

But I'm not in the dead players either.

[Wisdom]

Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?

[Wisdom]

Honestly, I know people here do joke votes on the first day, but where I'm from, the time limit is much smaller so we get serious pretty quickly. Therefore, I will not throw out a vote until more people begin to post and things get rolling and then I can start analyzing.

Those "joke" votes can get things serious pretty quickly too, don't you think?

[Wisdom]

Yeah, I also feel Victor's question was kind of useless and maybe even a little loaded. There are not many reasons one wants to get meta.

[Wisdom]

Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?

Not good.

What are you going to do about that?

[Wisdom]

I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, which

tends

to be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

Mathdino tried to get information. You questioned why he wants to get information (which is obvious). That doesn't look like an attempt to get information on your part.

[Wisdom]

Also, I have new person I want wagon.

VOTE: wgeurts

Everyone get aboard.

Why?

[Wisdom]

Also, I have new person I want wagon.

VOTE: wgeurts

Everyone get aboard.

Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.

Well then you aren't thinking hard enough, because of the handful of posts you have had, they have certainly been suspect.

Care to explain what is suspect about them may I ask?

Also interested in knowing that @acryon

[Wisdom]

Sure, but why is the party at specifically wgeurts' wagon is what I want to know.

[Wisdom]

I don't like those questions either.

[Wisdom]

There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.

That's all good and I liked how you put your money where your mouth was, but I don't get why you unvoted. Were you done pressuring me?

[Wisdom]

Her giving out the information about the sites etc doesn't feel like it's from a scum agenda.

She was asked to do that, I don't think it's telling.

[Wisdom]

There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.

That's all good and I liked how you put your money where your mouth was, but I don't get why you unvoted. Were you done pressuring me?

Yes, you see my real goal as I ha already stated was to get us out RVS so we can actually scum hunt. It worked, the little exchange with you sparked us leaving the RVS page 2. This doesn't mean I think you're town however, that will depend off your future play.

The fact we did left RVS does not explain why you had to unvote me though. You could keep pressuring me until you found something telling either way, however small. Why not interested in that?

[Wisdom]

@TTH
I don't appreciate how you talk about me and N_M in the third person instead of trying to engage either of us. Do you care about hearing a defense to your accusations, or would you just like to get others to vote with you?

[Wisdom]

Not really. People mostly give off telling things when they're pressured.

You said "there's nothing to gain here", which was simply untrue. Did you think that pressuring me will accomplish nothing?

[Wisdom]

I don't know, maybe you would get something telling off me. Or maybe you would get other people sheep you and vote me and depending on their reasoning you could get info on them. Unvoting on the other hand doesn't help in any way.

[Wisdom]

My vote on him was almost litteraly based off thin air.

This is not true. You said you voted me because you didn't like my wagoning. Why change your reason now?

[Wisdom]

Wow, I missed a ton...

Alright, so just to make sure that I'm understanding this all:
The arguments that I'm seeing ATM:
Wgeurts voted Wisdom supposedly to get us out of RVS. Now, he unvoted after receiving some pressure, but his weird behavior sparked lots of debate. Is suspected by Mathdino and Newbie (anyone I missed?)
Also, VictorDeAngelo appeared to question Mathdino's desire for a meta.
Is there anything else that I'm missing with everything that's been going on?

Pretty much. Do you have your own opinion on all of this?

[Wisdom]

Exactly, it was basically gut. We were in the RVS and wagons are common, seriously would you ever base a case off someone wagoning in early RVS?

Yes actually, there have been scum caught off their actions in RVS.
Your vote on me was not random. It had reasoning. You said that you didn't feel good about my wagoning and you voted me because it was not sitting well with you. That's not a random RVS vote. Which means that all of your claims that it was are you changing your story now. And I ask again, why are you doing this?

Also I love how I stated that there may be a weak link between Mathdino and Newbie and he's just gone and votes me with the reasons "he now looks a whole lot scummier.'.

Why is he wrong about that? Do you realize what setup we are playing?

[Wisdom]

Fixed messed up quoting

Exactly, it was basically gut. We were in the RVS and wagons are common, seriously would you ever base a case off someone wagoning in early RVS?

Yes actually, there have been scum caught off their actions in RVS.
Your vote on me was not random. It had reasoning. You said that you didn't feel good about my wagoning and you voted me because it was not sitting well with you. That's not a random RVS vote. Which means that all of your claims that it was are you changing your story now. And I ask again, why are you doing this?

Also I love how I stated that there may be a weak link between Mathdino and Newbie and he's just gone and votes me with the reasons "he now looks a whole lot scummier.'.

Why is he wrong about that? Do you realize what setup we are playing?

[Wisdom]

Looking for reactions from the masons.

[Wisdom]

Eh. Tbh I feel like scum wouldn't do it so blatantly.

[Wisdom]

@wguerts
Can you stop talking about links and masons and everything related to this? You may not realize it, but it does help scum and nobody else.

[Wisdom]

I'm not changing my reasons, if we're going to face it it was really weak reasoning I even said that when I gave my reasons. What have I changed? I'm honestly confused.

I still don't get you.

You voted me because me liking wagons didn't sit well with you. Correct?
Now you're calling that reason weak?
And you've even said that you voted me out of thin air (randomly) which is clearly untrue.

So what exactly is the truth?

[Wisdom]

You were answering to acryon there. Were you referring to me?

[Wisdom]

Also for all those people accusing me of making up the get out of RVS story, read these to quotes from me before I voted wisdom. Yeah, I had already said what I was intending to do.

That doesn't make it more town-motivated. You could have been preparing the ground for your "get out of RVS" act with those posts.

[Wisdom]

Also for all those people accusing me of making up the get out of RVS story, read these to quotes from me before I voted wisdom. Yeah, I had already said what I was intending to do.

That doesn't make it more town-motivated. You could have been preparing the ground for your "get out of RVS" act with those posts.

Doesn't that seem a little far fetched?
Why would scum try to get out of RVS and why would they force it themselves instead of blending in and going with the flow.

For towncred? "Look, I got us out of RVS, I'm totally town"

[Wisdom]

I don't see him blatantly stating "Are you a mason" as a newbscum. As regular scum imitating a newbtown maybe.

[Wisdom]

Nor do I like Wisdom's 108 - particularly since he accused me of reaching and asking loaded questions earlier.

What is your issue with 108?

[Wisdom]

I define engage as "try to reach out to the other player and attempt to read them". Voting me and talking about me with others doesn't count as engaging.

My point with the question was that the way she did it looked like she was more interested in convincing others I'm scum than actually attempt to read me.

[Wisdom]

Hey Wisdom, when wgeurts first unvoted you after voting shortly before, did you think it was pretty suspicious at that moment?

Not really, I found it weird that he was unvoting already but not necessarily scummy. Someone posted later about how it might have been scummy and it made me revisit it.

[Wisdom]

Yes, however whatever I say you'll lynch me anyway. Seriously, I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info than let the scum further run the town.

This overreaction continues being on the borders between newbtown and scum faking a newb.
From what I've read, I don't think people are tunneling him that hard that such a reaction would be warranted. But then people new to the game often don't understand this.

Ugh. Dunno.

[Wisdom]

I think its more townie feeling frustrated than scum thinking there going to be lynched so they self vote to try to show us only they wouldn't self vote if they were scum.

Normally I'd agree with this, but there have been multiple cases noted where wgeurts could have possibly been imitating a newbtown and being pretty good at it. So I don't think it's to be ruled out.

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

[Wisdom]

Just in case anyone's interested, this general trend of posting continues

right

up to the last few Wisdom posts, especially the one categorizing wgeurt's self-vote as some kind of grey-area "overreaction." There's a lot of wishy-washy-ness (I know that's not a word, but it's too late at night for me to care) on wgeurts when he's the clear favorite wagon today. I think he's not wanting to close off the possibility of joining the wagon but at the same time he doesn't want to look overeager.

Or I was just not sure whether we're watching scum theatre or an actual newbie.

[Wisdom]

Neh, couldn't care less about pressure. I find that he was too quick in dropping the whole "omg you're all tunneling me so bad" thing and returning to acting like he was never suspected. An actual newbie most likely wouldn't be able to recover that fast.

[Wisdom]

And?

[Wisdom]

Wisdom you said you don't think others are tunnelling that hard to warrant the reaction he gave. On the topic of tunnelling, would you say you have been tunnelling Wgeurt?

No? I was thinking there is a chance he's just a newbie so I refrained from scumreading him right away, but it just doesn't seem that likely after his recent posts. How am I tunneling?

Wisdom you didn't like Wgeurt's quick recovery, saying he acted like nothing happened. He un-vote because people (myself included) asked him to un-vote. The self vote was anti-town. You said he acted like nothing happened, to you how was he should he have acted?

Usually newbtowns who throw a tantrum and self-vote like he did refuse to listen to reason and just stubbornly insist that they should be lynched because they're a liability etc. wgeurts on the other hand completely recovered and started throwing suspicions towards the most suspected people, as if his "frustration" and the whole ordeal never happened. It just looks like the whole thing was just an act to gain the town's sympathy, and when he did so, he dropped it and went back to trying to push mislynches.

I just don't think it was natural, dunno how else to explain it.

[Wisdom]

Yup, I do have a history of tunneling. I am trying to cut down on it as much as I can lately because it's toxic for games.

Yes, if you look at the bigger picture, his unvoting is the better thing for town in general. I'm not arguing that. I am arguing that people who actually do get frustrated to the point of giving up just cannot come back that easily. There's pride, there's stubborness, there are a lot of things at stake. I've seen many people like this and I don't recall seeing such a quick recovery.

I don't think Mathdino or Newbie are under such heavy pressure right now. Victor has been the most popular target of suspicion since the beginning and lately me, a little before his posts happened. That's why I think that he's just targetting the two people that are under the most pressure at the moment.

[Wisdom]

Does that mean you're done suspecting me? Why are you telling me what to do as if you know I'm town?

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

Furthermore

, I don't like this vote because it foists a Catch 22 onto wgeurts. If he doesn't unvote, he continues to be anti-town and unproductive, but if he does unvote, that's considered condemning evidence.

I am not sure what you're saying here. He had unvoted already when I voted him.

[Wisdom]

Yeh. That's the natural action for a town player who broke down to that level.

Again, I am not arguing that it would be better for the town if he didn't unvote. That's a fact, obviously it's better when people don't self-vote in any context. I am talking about how unnatural his unvote and everything else he posted seem given the mindset he should be having at that moment.

[Wisdom]

Your 279 sure doesn't look like that.

[Wisdom]

How did I do that?

pedit: Really now? You mean to tell me that's not a purposeful "newbslip"?

[Wisdom]

So wgeurts, answer me, how did I "lock you into a situation where you'd always look scummy"?

[Wisdom]

I would not find not unvoting to be scummy. It would be anti-town, sure, but not scummy.

But in any case I don't get this catch 22 thing. He has all the space in the world to defend himself and explain all of his thought processes. He's not locked anywhere.

[Wisdom]

It slightly troubled me when Silver defended me in 238 but I didn't give it much thought. You might actually have a point about her.

[Wisdom]

You appear to be pushing wgeurts who is obviously newbtown VT as scum and you continue to do so regardless of how many times he answers for himself, and you are especially pushy about it whenever the pressure seems to come off him.

He is not obviously newbtown at all imo. He is faking it and it's working. There is a fine difference between actual newbtowns and scum faking them that you see with experience.

The above comment by you is blatantly sheeping a bad case on me by mathdino. His whole post was crap and not worth a response. He's making up reasons to find me scummy and he can take his fabricated case on me and shove it where the sun don't shine. The fact that the only thing you had to say about it was the above extremely weak comment, reminds me of scum blending in, being wishy-washy, and not wanting to commit to any stance that might come back to bite them later in the game.

I didn't think his case was bad, I found I agreed that I didn't remember anything notable from you this game, and ISOing you showed I remembered right. The only thing that was on my mind was your defence of me that was uncalled for.

I find this is a typical case of projection btw, as everything you're accusing me of are things you're doing yourself.

[Wisdom]

Do you honestly think scum would be so blatant about mason pushing? I can't believe even newbscum would do this.

Yeah, newbscum wouldn't. Scum that are using newbness to coast would. It was already explained.
[/quote]

[Wisdom]

I disagree with this vote and reasoning behind it. I see nothing wrong with Wgeurts unvoting himself after several people asked him to do so. I don't think this is more likely to come from scum vs town.

This is, once again, looking at the surface. "unvoting is normal because he was asked to do so". No. It's weird that a newbtown listens so easily and complies with what people are telling him to do. It's weird that all of his frustration is gone and he's back to playing like nothing happened. His breakdown was not genuine, that's what that tells us.

[Wisdom]

I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.

See above post. You're also looking at the surface and not beyond that. Being asked to do something does not mean that doing it is okay.

[Wisdom]

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

@blindmewithscience Don't be shy, jump on my wagon too. Or are you afraid to commit?

[Wisdom]

I disagree with this vote and reasoning behind it. I see nothing wrong with Wgeurts unvoting himself after several people asked him to do so. I don't think this is more likely to come from scum vs town.

This is, once again, looking at the surface. "unvoting is normal because he was asked to do so". No. It's weird that a newbtown listens so easily and complies with what people are telling him to do. It's weird that all of his frustration is gone and he's back to playing like nothing happened. His breakdown was not genuine, that's what that tells us.

Actually, I've had breakdowns like this in other games when I've been so damn frustrated with being tunnelled as scum when I am town that I have voted myself and threatened to replace out and been talked out of it and changed my mind and gone back to playing. This is something I can relate to as coming from a town mindset based on my own experiences with it which is probably why I see it as a newbtown action.

How easily did you change your mind? I am not arguing it can't be done, I am arguing it can't be done in a heartbeat.

[Wisdom]

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

Actually, my reasoning is pretty solid and I'm sticking with it for now. I am not really caring for the sheeping comments from mathdino or the comments from you either so if you guys get me lynched, I'll flip town, and be out of the game and then you guys can go back to leaving the new players alone-newbie, wegeurts, myself and actually go after real scum, unless of course one or both of you is scum doing this in which case, it would make sense.

I don't see where this comes from, do you feel like you'll be lynched? You have like one vote on you.

Also I don't get the "new players cannot be scum". Last I checked everyone has the same odds of drawing scum.

[Wisdom]

And no, your reasoning is not solid at all, it's a rehash of everything that has been said already: "omg wgeurts unvoting is so normal, he was asked to do it" when it's not and I have said why already.

[Wisdom]

From my perspective, it looked like a townie who was honestly frustrated and wanted the other players to closely observe his wagon when he flips town. He didn't want his death to be in vain. I think posts like this, this, and this gave him good advice and I think he realized that, which in turn gave him hope.

And the first thing he did after all this frustration was "okay, unvote as requested. Nothing's wrong, we're going back to scumhunting. x and y are scum, this is why."
Trust me, this is not how newbtowns deal with frustration. They have their pride to consider, they even think that they'll look more scummy if they back down now that they went this far. It's not making any sense for a newbtown to comeback so easily. I know you probably can't understand me because you lack experience with newbtowns, but I replace into newbies all the time and see such behaviors.

And lol with the rehashed reasoning. If multiple people notice similar scummy things about you, then that can't be helped. My reasons for suspecting you are legit (I will admit that wgeurts' good points added onto it as well.).

Assume I am town for a second. How do you think your and SW's votes look, considering they consist of the same reasoning that has already been explained and also considering their timing?

I'm more leaning scum on SW than I am on you, but it's definitely one of you.

[Wisdom]

So there's two sides to this town forming. There's mathdino and Wisdom, who are both suspicious of wgeurts and Silver. (VDA, based on his last post, appears to be part of this group). And then there's Finn, Silver, Newbie, TTH, Malakittens, and wgeurts, who believe that wgeurts' play was simply that of a frustrated townie (and are somewhat critical of Wisdom). Not_Mafia seems to be part of this group based on 274. And then acryon, who's been V/LA for this whole thing. (Also the Undertaker, because he's a no-show). At the moment, I'm leaning towards the former group, as wgeurts has been incredibly suspicious, but I want more info before completely deciding (aka when wgeurts responds to stuff). Including me, that's a 7-4 split, with 2 abstaining. Although this is all just a really big simplification of everything that's happened so far.

Was there a reason to this recap?

[Wisdom]

Pls don't do this. We both know I'm capable of being wrong.

You seemed pretty confident you were right about him being newbtown last time you posted, is that not the case anymore?

[Wisdom]

Then why'd you say that we should leave the new players alone and "focus on the real scum"? That implies that you believe the new players can't be scum.

Your opinions constantly feel as if you're echoing the consensus there is around, there is little if any original reasoning. That's why you're being attacked for them.

[Wisdom]

That didn't answer my question. Talk to me about how he's newbtown and reacted like he did. You do know one thing or two about emotion after all.

[Wisdom]

I understand your view, but my point is that it's in there that scum will hide. Using the reasoning the majority seems to have so they can blend in.

[Wisdom]

Ill selfvote over a NL, so don't worry about that.

[Wisdom]

Unofficial VC:

Wisdom (4) - TellTaleHeart, wgeurts, SilverWolf, Newbie
wgeurts (4) - VictorDeAngelo, blindmewithscience, Wisdom, Mathdino
VictorDeAngelo (1) - acryon
acryon (1) - Malakittens

Not voting - FinnLaw, The Undertaker, Not_Mafia

[Wisdom]

@mod

I'm not voting Mathdino unless I'm a secret doublevoter

[Wisdom]

The only issue that I think may be worth pointing out is that wgeurts sort of kept doing his own thing until mala stepped in and posted this. This psot from her seemed to cause his turn-around, so it reads to me like it could possibly be coaching. Although I think there is a

very

small chance that this is actually the case, I think it is worth noting.

I could see this. Mala has been distant and has avoided interacting with me, which might well be a scumtell for her since she knows I can read her. Wouldn't surprise me if she's scum with wgeurts.

[Wisdom]

So there's a good chance that one of Wisdom/Wge is scum. Wisdom surprisingly doesn't feel town. Also I'm disliking his read on me because I think it's pure bullshit.

UNVOTE: Acyron

Tell me more, Mala. You're still not talking to me.

[Wisdom]

Mathdino, I could see SilverWolf being town actually. There is a passion in her defenses that makes me think they might be genuine. I also think that as scum she would more try to appease you than antagonise you.

I feel wgeurts is the much better choice for today.

[Wisdom]

I don't mind the vote changes. If anything, scum are usually more sticky with their votes.

[Wisdom]

I don't see why it's unlikely that a wgeurts lynch will happen. We have plenty of time left and even a slot who hasn't posted.

[Wisdom]

There's no reason to believe it won't exist in the remainder of the day though. It's not like we're at deadline.

[Wisdom]

He is, the mod said so already

[Wisdom]

I see that wgeurt's join date is September 16th of this year, which is very recent.

Join dates don't matter. He might have tons of experience off-site. He might even be an alt. As long as someone is playing outside the newbie queue, newbie excuses cease to exist.

[Wisdom]

You two have a history (which allows you to read each other well)?

Yes, and notably she's one of the players I'm most accurate at reading.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom explain why I should be townreading you?

Because I'm town and you supposedly can read me? Dunno. My question wasn't why you're not townreading me, it was why you're so distant and not engaging me.

[Wisdom]

Anyways townreads in no order {Mathdino, Finnlaw, TTH, BWMS} leaning town {N_M & Wge}

The only one I agree with is Mathdino, maybe TTH. Can you explain the rest?

Also remind me who you are scumreading and why.

[Wisdom]

I'm not scum anymore?

Also explain of your reads please

[Wisdom]

hai

[Wisdom]

Mathdino looks town for the effort he's putting into this game
TTH is a more gut based read.
Fin is making a lot of points which I agree with at the moment.
My case on newbie will be made tommorow.

Such lengthy explanations

Why didn't you just put those in the post you gave us your reads in the first place?

[Wisdom]

Constantine do you really have to post like that? It's getting annoying fast.

[Wisdom]

You just replaced in, why would you ask others about their thoughts? Read and give us

your

thoughts.

[Wisdom]

Instead of posting nonsense better work on forming that opinion

[Wisdom]

You two have a history (which allows you to read each other well)?

Yes, and notably she's one of the players I'm most accurate at reading.

That's not entirely true and we both know this. You have to tunnel me and see how I react to figure out whether or not I'm scum or town.

Which doesn't change the fact I end up reading you correctly.

[Wisdom]

Also 452, Mala

[Wisdom]

Good, now explain your vote

[Wisdom]

I would like to lynch Vincent or Mathdino today, and am not to eager to look for alternatives. Let's just get the job done. With that said, if you haven't clarified your RFV (Reason for vote) yet, now is the time to do so.

This doesn't sound like you'd like to cooperate with people like you claimed. And are you really asking for people for reasoning when you refuse to give yours?

[Wisdom]

Yes, the lord suspects an unusual early connection and rvs ploy in the works.

Another one talking about connections in a mason setup. Seriously stop it.

[Wisdom]

Got to page 9, if wgeurts is faking a newb town it's a persona he's carried to the whole site, which I seriously doubt.

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

Good point. After seeing his "what is a scummy" question and other MD posts I kinda started doubting myself.

[Wisdom]

not actually engaging with anyone

Is there a reason for this quite obvious misrep?

[Wisdom]

Not a fan of a Constantine wagon. He's annoying and even hypocritical, but he's most likely town.

Let's do this instead

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Malakittens

[Wisdom]

Because I'm not happy with her play. She needs to do more, starting with explaining her reads. And she won't do so while we ignore her.

[Wisdom]

@mod You still have me as doublevoter.. not voting wgeurts anymore

[Wisdom]

Here is the problem though: he is all over the place.

I'm not arguing in favor of Constantine's point. I'm saying that Wisdom's insipid remark was out-of-context and not really applicable to what he was quoting.

How so? He was pointing out a connection between Mathdino and Victor, no?

[Wisdom]

You quoted his post and then complained about "making connections." The clear implication from this is that he shouldn't have made the connection because masons could give a false positive on this. That's not applicable because the specific "connections" Constantine was talking about was two scum voting each other to distance, something I'm assuming two masons wouldn't do.

While I didn't look at what exactly he was talking about, I don't doubt two masons would vote each other to muddy the waters. In any case, connections before any flip happens should not happen, especially in this setup. This was my main point.

[Wisdom]

I certainly can't tell.

Then ask me. Even when you respond to me you're talking in the third person.

[Wisdom]

I see that he's calling Mala scum, and I think it's just in an attempt to subvert what I said to acryon because it happens to come after I called his end of that interaction "mealy-mouthed.

Somehow I expected you to say such a thing. Unfortunately for you, I've been suspicious about Mala for a while now and it's evident in the thread, and that's before you said anything.

[Wisdom]

I'm apparently a vague afterthought townread, but I'm sure that's going to conveniently dry up really quickly.

You're right, it is drying up. The way you post and avoid interacting with me while tunneling on me is getting annoying and I am starting to consider that it's a scum tactic.

[Wisdom]

you would give reads

I give reads when I see fit, thank you

[Wisdom]

You really are asking to be PL'd

i lol'd

[Wisdom]

I'm gathering townreads on wgeurts, SilverWolf (now Riddleton), acryon, Wisdom, Mathdino, and Constantine.

wat
Explain the townread on me.

[Wisdom]

Question - Why would someone with a "personality" like mine play a game as scum and act like myself? That's pretty much the same as nailing up a sign saying "lynch me".

I hate this post. As if it's not clear you're self-conscious about everything you're doing.

[Wisdom]

Also I think TTH is deff town for 604. His views are deff mirroring what I feel in regards to SCtH's connection between SW, MD & VDA.

Can you explain this further? What do you feel in regards to the connection, what do you think TTH felt and how it makes her town.

[Wisdom]

Also Mala, what is your read on me? The answer to Mathdino's question wasn't very telling in that regard.

[Wisdom]

I'm gathering townreads on wgeurts, SilverWolf (now Riddleton), acryon, Wisdom, Mathdino, and Constantine.

wat
Explain the townread on me.

I will do no such thing.

You 180 on a read you've been tunneling all game and you refuse to explain why?

[Wisdom]

How is it antitown to explain a townread?

[Wisdom]

Yeah nvm

[Wisdom]

@Mala That wasn't TTH's point though. That was Constantine's.

[Wisdom]

Actually no, what you're saying was neither's point. Constantine argued that the rvs thing made them possible scum together. TTH explained that Constantine was arguing that and not a possible mason connection.

[Wisdom]

Okay now 671

[Wisdom]

Hmm, yeah, you haven't played with scum-me now that I think about it

Or actually, you have, in my first scum game ever, a less pressure game. You even hammered me for the town win.

[Wisdom]

mhm

What do you think about Victor?

[Wisdom]

Here are actual scum tells
- Saying what "Scum" would do a lot
- When tunneled, responding back with questions and not statements
- Voting one way but reading another
- Compensating with Large Blocks of Text (This is called domination)
- Lurking

None of these are scumtells
There are actually no definite scumtells. It depends on the players and the circumstances.

[Wisdom]

@TTH I think she's town, I'm satisfied with her responses and other recent posts. I also feel better about you.

[Wisdom]

Victor feels like lynchbait right now, so I'm not voting him until I've heard from him.

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: constantine

[Wisdom]

I didn't remember his 580, prolly because I did not care much about reading his posts while he was roleplaying. So I assumed his bullshit about scumtells was just a common newbie mistake. Yet he knows better.

[Wisdom]

Unofficial VC:

Victor (4) - Not_Mafia, Constantine, Riddleton, TTH
Constantine (4) - blindmewithscience, Mathdino, wgeurts, Wisdom
Riddleton (1) - acryon

Not voting: FinnLaw, Malakittens, Newbie

[Wisdom]

FinnLaw, how come you've never voted all day? I checked the last newbie and you voted at least 3 people in D1 there (which is still not much, but it's more than zero)

Who would you vote right now if you absolutely had to?

[Wisdom]

Wgeurts has never been scummy. The issues earlier were a big fuss over playstyle. He has, however, been a target for his newbie play, hence low-hanging fruit.

Bullshit.
wgeurts has been scummy since RVS. If you want to attribute the scumminess to newbiness that's another thing, but don't go claiming he hasn't been scummy.

[Wisdom]

Please read this for more information. Victor made a baseless vote against Wgeurts, he invented new reasoning to support his fallacious claim as he goes along, as he doesn't want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect.

Translation: Victor is scum for tunneling.

Because town never tunnel, huh?

Your case sucks.

[Wisdom]

Then what is it? Why couldn't have Victor-town acted that way?

[Wisdom]

I'm extremely suspicious of what I interpret as a scumslip from Riddleton. I think Riddleton knows Victor is town and possibly built this case on what he found scummy while following the game. Unfortunate, I had high hopes for Silver's slot.

unFoS: Newbie

FoS: this guy

Would be willing to lynch either Constantine or Riddleton as a result.

I don't like Riddleton much either, but why a "scumslip"? Can't Riddleton be town and think he has caught scum? You're doing the same as Riddleton here.
Also where does the "unfos: newbie" come from?

[Wisdom]

Yeah, I get what you mean now. Victor would have no reason to convince himself if he was scum, so that makes no sense.

Also I agree that Newbie and Riddleton are probably not scum together, because of how SW and Newbie voted me together earlier in the day.

[Wisdom]

But that's what you said, "he doesn't want to believe the wagon he's pushing is incorrect". I remember it because that's what made me think about tunneling.

[Wisdom]

Riddleton remind me what your read on Constantine is?

[Wisdom]

I don't see how that's relevant? In one post he said that scumhunting is all about looking for different motivations and stuff, and in another he says that certain things are scumtells. These two don't go together.

[Wisdom]

I don't buy that. Experienced players know there are no scumtells and everything is circumstantial. And the fact he himself posted things that said this show he's an experienced player.

[Wisdom]

Also I hate the fact he's so self conscious about his play. Posts like "Cmon guys I wouldn't play like this as scum".

[Wisdom]

Where did he talk about meta of other sites? I don't get how you came up with that

[Wisdom]

Where has Constantine made a post where he explicitly agrees that there are no scumtells (or implies that?)

We already talked about that. His 580 or whatever post it was where he was explaining how scumhunting is situational and psychological. He showed there that he knows better than believing in a set of scumtells like some newer to the game players do.

[Wisdom]

This unwarranted imo defense of Constantine by Riddleton troubles me. If Constantine is actually town, Riddle might be scum going for the cred. And gain further momentum to push Victor on D2.

[Wisdom]

Mathdino, acryon, thoughts?

[Wisdom]

Riddleton, if you can find all these reasons for Constantine to be town, how come you don't consider Victor-town at all and you're so adamant about him being scum?

[Wisdom]

So I'm being voted for some bullshit regarding my interpretations of what scum do?

No? Read again.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, I agree, I've been thinking about riddleton's hyper defense on me and I'm not sure what to make of it.
I think your guy's case and reasoning is incredibly idiotic, but that will be proven in due time with my flip.

How is it idiotic exactly?

[Wisdom]

Until that quote you showed me, I really didn't have any problems with Constantine. I'm on the fence now that you've shown me, and will need to re-evaluate my stance tonight in light of the new information.

This is the stem of my frustration. Suddenly agreeing with wisdom after three pages of pushing his case that I'm town, and now he's saying he's on the fence. Bullshit!

Yes, the sudden switch doesn't sit well with me either.

[Wisdom]

Because those reasons don't exist for Victor-Town. There are more compelling points for Victor from my POV, 5, than for him as town, which is 1 (his later posts are less content-less than earlier posts).

There exist such reasons actually. In fact, any action from any player you might take, you can find possible town and scum motivations for it. The strange thing here is that you were willing to do so for Constantine, showing that you are capable of looking at something from both angles, but you're not doing it at all for Victor.

[Wisdom]

I am not OK with a PL. I have had plenty of off-games, and at the moment, it seems pretty clear to me that this is one of those for you (at least in that instance). I would hope we can do better than choosing to lynch someone based on a simple mistake.

This feels a little off considering you've been scumreading his slot for the whole game. What was the point you stopped scumreading SW?

[Wisdom]

I'd be okay with a Riddleton flashwagon at this point. Dunno if it's viable given the deadline, but if there's support for such a thing, count me in.

[Wisdom]

If a player can play devil's advocate on wagon A why not do it for wagon B?

It makes much more sense that he's WKing wagon A for cred so he can push wagon B tomorrow.

[Wisdom]

No. I'm talking about Victor wagon. The way he is tunneling on Victor does not make sense given he apparently does consider how scummy actions can have come from town.

[Wisdom]

Dunno, the fact Constantine picked up on how this WKing and sudden switch looked bad kinda made me get cold feet because I totally agree

[Wisdom]

I didn't mention anything about the switch though

[Wisdom]

The switch was "oh I didn't see that post, maybe you're right, I'll reconsider". It feels off after he insisted so much about how Constantine is town. Besides, I doubt he didn't see that post before, as he posted about it.

[Wisdom]

Replacements are null

[Wisdom]

@Wisdom are replacements really null? Isn't it important to also important to consider who they're replacing?

What I meant was, the reasons someone replaces out are null, because it usually has to do with RL. Obviously what predecessors do is not null, so I wasn't suggesting that.

[Wisdom]

@TTH I think she's town, I'm satisfied with her responses and other recent posts. I also feel better about you.

You feel better about me now that I've backed off?

It seems like your read on me is dependent on my read on you. I don't care for that.

Maybe. I don't appreciate tunnels on me, and the way you were not interacting with me was annoying. You changing that is pleasant.

[Wisdom]

In the last few pages, it looks like Wisdom's been making a mad dash to make sure the lynch is on anyone but Victor.

Or maybe I spoke too fast.
Where does this come from? Why do you disagree with the points I made? Yes, the Victor wagon is sketchy and I'd rather lynch someone else, your point?

[Wisdom]

Any particular reason he's deserving of this label "lynchbait"? What does that even mean and how did you arrive at this? And don't tell me it's because he's V/LA. It's not.

Lynchbait are people who are easy for scum to get mislynched. The reasons people have been pushing him for, especially Riddleton's case, are hardly enough to warrant a lynch. And the fact he's not here to defend himself just makes this look even more opportunistic.

[Wisdom]

Somehow, having a townread on one person and a scumread on someone else is a scumtell? That doesn't even sound right.
What does Riddleton's analysis of Constantine and Victor have to do with each other? What's the relationship? He has to explicitly weigh out everything?

I already explained this. You're not reading.

[Wisdom]

At this point, I hope it's becoming clear that Wisdom's goal here is to throw suspicion onto as many people as possible before the day ends.

No, at this point the only thing that is clear is that you're determined to find anything I do scummy in some way or another. First you were arguing that you couldn't tell what my reads are, now that you can, you do your best to undermine them.

[Wisdom]

The "case" on wgeurts is and was always weak. It's your opinion that he was always scummy. Your efforts to present it as some kind of objective, indisputable fact notwithstanding, it's an opinion.

Imo it's a fact that he was always scummy. I cannot imagine how someone in any time and space would not think he was scummy. Well, unless they knew his alignment.

[Wisdom]

At this point, I hope it's becoming clear that TTH has been tunneling Wisdom all game for reasons that relate far more to playstyle than actual scumminess

Couldn't say it better myself

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Riddleton

[Wisdom]

VOTE: constantine

[Wisdom]

And I second Mathdino's request

[Wisdom]

Wisdom

, I need your read on Mala ASAP before nightfall if you read this.

Didn't manage to read it before the lock, but she got much scummier. I hate her certainty about Victor flipping scum, it comes out of nowhere. Victor had not done anything that scummy to warrant such certainty. And such a quickhammer does not fall into things I'm used to seeing from town-Mala at all.

[Wisdom]

Honestly, I think VD was willing to run up the time.

I agree with you and Mala with regards to this. The lack of reads / a defence seems to imply he just wanted to run out the counter to a NL.

I'm happy. I think we've lynched scum.

Dislike this for the same reasons. Apathy is not alignment indicative. The guy came from a V/LA with a ton of things to catch up and had a huge wagon on him. It does not make sense to immediately think that he's scum because of that.

[Wisdom]

K
Confirmed newbie is scum with victor.

Funny you'd say that. Newbie is actually following everything you're saying, and the belief she expresses here "Victor was stalling his reads" is practically a copy from yours. Yet you accuse her for being his buddy.

I think this is a case of projection. Mala is actually the buddy so she accuses someone else of what she herself is doing.

[Wisdom]

K
Confirmed newbie is scum with victor.

I would love to know how you came to this conclusion.

I guess this isn't getting answered, lol. I'm legitimately curious how I'm Victor's scum partner.

Meanwhile, Newbie is probably town for this insistence.

[Wisdom]

@Mathdino 939

Stahp. You can find interactions and interpret them as scummy between any two given players. Don't fall in such a trap.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom - null, but had to guess maaaaaaaaaaybe town

Talk to me about how you went from this to "Wisdom is confscum", ty

[Wisdom]

Not that it's anything new, but Mathdino is super town for 950. He's not even under any suspicion, not much reason for scum to waste so much effort.

[Wisdom]

hi guys

hey bork

[Wisdom]

Wisdom has been scummy all game.

Yet you had me as nulltown in your last readlist before this post.

[Wisdom]

Riddleton's Mala attack looks strange too. I have no clue why he's voting her there. Is it because she's voting me?

[Wisdom]

I continue hating Constantine's posts, though he's prolly just quirky town after all. Don't see him bussing Victor like he did.

[Wisdom]

wgeurts also practically confirmed town, Victor literally just said "I have a new person I want wagon".

Good point, yeah. Although I think Victor was the first person to vote him, so dunno how reliable this is.
But wguerts is probably town anyway, so yeah

[Wisdom]

Acyron and Mathdino's reactionary defense makes a lot more sense

Why are you not including me in those people? I also was against the Victor wagon, because it sucked and imo it was just luck that it turned up being on scum. I don't get why I'm not included in your suspects.

[Wisdom]

scum rarely vote each other in RVS

This is false. If you wish, I can provide many games in which scum vote each other in RVS. They do this so they can avoid interacting with the town.

Agreed. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. Don't go determining buddies from that, acryon is still a possibility.

[Wisdom]

My lynch pool is this:

{Wisdom, BMWS, Riddleton, Wgegurts}

In that order.

Interesting that you forgot all about acryon today.

[Wisdom]

Actually, good catch riddleton. Mathdino is confirmed super newbie scum.
VOTE: mathdino

Okay, ciao for the night.

How about no

[Wisdom]

I disagree. His mindset is exactly like mine. His analysis is EXACTLY WHAT I DID during the night. Like he meta'd VDA and found the exact tells that I found with vda.

Mathdino does not seem to have the same scumreads with you, so this is bullshit. I feel you're posting this to buddy him and make him sheep you.

[Wisdom]

I really do love how he uses being right on Victor to justify being right on me. That kind of reasoning SCREAMS bussing to me.

Doubt it. His playstyle suggests he is just so sure of himself that getting the lynch he wanted boosted his ego and made him think all his reads are right. I don't think it looks like bussing.

[Wisdom]

acryon reads insanely town based on his interaction with Victor.

Is that just because of RVS? Because if so, this is a bad reason to write acryon off.

[Wisdom]

There seems to be some consensus that lynching Acyron would be a good idea.

Where did you see that consensus, because all I'm seeing in the thread is people townreading him for faulty reasons.

[Wisdom]

I saw this, and I recall Mathdino being the one to push you on it, but if I also recall it required Vic to be town for it to make any sense, no?

The mistake makes sense whether I'm town or scum.

Nope. The accusation on you was that you slipped knowledge about Victor being town. This was not true, so that is no longer valid.

[Wisdom]

I did a vast meta research on VDA. He has a tendency to line up with scum partners like MathDino said and associate them with a townplayer. I have checked town games to see if he's done them there, but he has once, but when he did do it is was a vast difference.

You're still not explaining how that led to scumreading me

[Wisdom]

If she was scum and wanted to bus him, I'd have thought she'd do it earlier.

Eh. Maybe she thought he would try to avoid getting lynched, then bussed him when she saw he wasn't posting. The timing doesn't look strange to me.

[Wisdom]

That said, I also don't like how Mala has fallen into the background. The last few posts have a distinct feel of holding back.

Sucks up to Mala and then mudslings her. Mala's town.

How is that sucking up? Mudslinging sure, sucking up I don't see. And I don't get why it's improbable to you that Victor was giving out mild suspicions on Mala. If I recall, she had practically zero pressure on her around that time, so it was safe.

[Wisdom]

I would vote Wisdom, but I'm completely confused about something.

I think I get what you mean here.

Newbie is still town, posts like this are genuine

[Wisdom]

Also, I love how I'm accused of bussing my someone that was so adamant to let VD speak earlier but ended up "accidentally" hammering him and going oh well afterwards.

I didn't remember that, was she adamant to let him speak? If so, it makes even more sense that things are like I said. She wanted him to speak, and she bussed him when he wasn't.

Let me check

[Wisdom]

I'm not liking the fact he's not here to defend himself and those who are pushing his lynch feel like overeager scumbags and should stop. I want reactions.

I mean we still have two days and his VLA ends today so good god calm the hell down

Look at activity overview.

I'd lynch him before a no lynch, but I still want him to respond. So again I'm asking you nicely to back off and see if he responds.

Will you stop misrepping me.

Do you enjoy kicking people when they are down? That's the equivalent of lynching someone before they have a chance to speak.

Why are you in such a rush to lynch him before he can give out thoughts or EVEN CLAIM FOR THAT MATTER.

Go be scummy elsewhere.

VOTE: VDA

Heh. Newbie is right.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, wouldn't mind you chiming in yourself how you got to 740 and beyond from early game Vic interactions.

It's really difficult to know since I've not really been super diligent in checking timestamps, but Wisdom seemed pretty eager to save that slot by counterwagoning other slots around it, and I think it was pretty up in the air until Mala nailed Vic at the end with regard to who was actually going to be lynched.

I did want to avoid that wagon, it felt like people were opportunistically going for Victor because he wasn't around and the reasons given sucked. Other than some weird questions in the beginning of the game, Victor had done nothing particularly scummy to warrant such behavior.

[Wisdom]

Do I detect a scumread on Malakittens or a tu quoque fallacy? Justify yourself, Newbie. Calling out hypocrisy is not a good response, as there are very very good reasons that Mala's town.

I'm just saying it's funny how I'm getting accused of bussing by Mala when the way she hammered VD was really odd. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

Vote: Wisdom

Don't get why you vote me after you've made such a revelation, but meh.

[Wisdom]

To be really blunt. I had just hammered someone who was town and I felt really shitty that my reads were so wrong, so horribly wrong that game. I had beat myself up and figured that fuck it I'm sure VDA is scum so I felt like hammering and doing something right for a change.

But yes please try to equate my hammer as scummy

You are changing your story here. First it was "Oh, I didn't see we had 12 hours, better than NL", now it's on purpose because you were sure he's scum.

Yeah.

[Wisdom]

I didn't accuse you of busing, are you reading my posts? You aren't even in my lynchpool today.

K
Confirmed newbie is scum with victor.

oops

[Wisdom]

Ergo I am confused why you're still worried about it.

The mistake is still valid for Riddleton-scum; I make a contrived case for my newbie partner to bus him and swim in the towncred after. As scum, I don't really need to scumhunt that much, so all cases, ISOs and meta will be less in-depth and researched. Hence why I could have easily slipped and made a contradiction regarding my push on Victor.

Paranoia is still a thing and in my experience easily wins games for scum. I just don't want that to happen for us if we get to LyLo.

I don't think Riddle is scum anymore. Why insist on this so much? Unless it's some twisted way to get cred, but eh

[Wisdom]

No, because you obv havent commented on the bulk of the mathdino posts that pretty much point straight to Wis-scum

wat
Mathdino only recently started considering his townread on me was wrong because of an interpretation of a Victor post he hadn't noticed. He nowhere said anything about me being scum.

[Wisdom]

Oh btw Mathdino, I just completed a game with SilverWolf scum. It was kind of multiball, so it might not be that useful, but in the endgame she gave reasons for doing things etc so you might want to look into that.

[Wisdom]

So why is Riddleton so hung up on it? Answer: He's advocating for a PL of himself because he knows that'll never happen, and it gives him towncred to talk about his own lynch.

Eh. I think that's kind of a stretch. I find it likely that scum would just stop talking about it after Victor flipped scum and thus proved their "mistake" null.

As for SilverWolf, in that game I linked I think someone who knew her said that she is very defensive when town, so dunno how much what you found applies here.

[Wisdom]

Regarding my meta, is there a distinction between 'being right about scumreads' and 'bussing partners'? The linj you've provided is consistent of my scumgame but I don't understand the conclusion drawn from it

Riddleton, all I remember from you this game day is you talking about yourself plus an unexplained vote on Mala. You were scumreading Victor and you got a lynch on him, shouldn't you be eager to lynch the rest of the scum?

[Wisdom]

3/5 of his votes were almost directly after my own votes and cases (the Mathdino vote was RVS wagon, the Mala vote was to get her to pitch in). Not once did he question my townread on him, and I think if he WERE scum, a fair amount of his behaviour was intended to manipulate me by validating basically all my reads.

The fact you voted them first does not mean much. In most of these cases I had suspicions before you, but wanted to explore the reads more before voting. Won't deny that I do consider your points and they affect my reads though.

I don't question your townread because I'm pretty sure you're town. You haven't questioned my townread either, have you?

[Wisdom]

And finally caught up. Please don't post 4 pages while I'm sleeping next time

The remaining scum are Mala and most likely acryon.

I already made it clear why that is, but I'll summarize again after Riddle posts his case on her.

VOTE: Mala

[Wisdom]

On Newbie, are you unable to see how Mala might have arrived at a Victor/Newbie conclusion? Or the context in which she arrived at that conclusion? Furthermore, the fact that she did directly copy Mala's reasons here does not make her somehow townier than Mala for coming up with said reasons.
And don't worry, I'm not coming up with reasons to fit the read. I ISO'd Newbie and Victor after Mala's suggestion, and yes, Victor and Newbie are a very very possible scumteam. Much more possible than Victor/Mala, especially given the interactions I pointed out earlier.

Yes, I'm unable to see that. Newbie was saying the same things Mala was. It makes no sense for Mala to attack her for that.

Newbie is town, especially her insistence to be told what exactly makes her Victor's buddy screams town. The only thing I don't like is how she doesn't attack Mala for this and just states that she finds it hypocritical without taking any further action.

It seems to me that you

are

interpreting things in a way that fits your reads. Victor/Mala is the most obvious possibility to me.

[Wisdom]

Forgot to say this in the Mala part, but I think you're taking your reaction to the hammer and blowing it up to find everything she does as scummy. Fitting the evidence to the reads, in essence.

Nope, everything she's doing is scummy, as mentioned. I feel the urge listing everything scummy she has done again, but I don't want to do this before Riddle posts his case.

[Wisdom]

Is there actual legitimacy in you two apparently being able to read each other?

Yes, on my part at least. Here you go:

Micro 181 - correctly scumread her, shouted to town not to tunnel on me and lynch her in lylo, wasn't listened to, she won
Open 514 - correctly scumread her, shouted to town to lynch her, wasn't listened to, she killed me N1 and ended up winning
Newbie 1425 - correctly scumread her, got her partner lynched, she killed me, she was lynched right afterwards
Mini 1524 - incorrectly tunneled on her, realized my mistake and strongly townread her for the rest of the game
All other games with town-Mala - correctly townread her

I've never incorrectly read scum-Mala.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: Wisdom

Mala push sucks

nope, try again