Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[acryon]

VictorDeAngelo took me to school like he was my very caring mother in my first game here, so VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

[acryon]

That was fast, I've got a good feeling about this game's activity.

VOTE: SilverWolf because dinosaurs eat wolves.

If anything, wouldn't that fact make you

not

vote for SilverWolf, since you aren't afraid of him?

[acryon]

If anything, wouldn't that fact make you

not

vote for SilverWolf, since you aren't afraid of him?

On the contrary good sir, I'm polite enough to wait until Silver's dead in order to eat him.

Fair enough. This is the first game where I have actually been here at the very start, so I'm glad I am here to ask the hard-hitting questions right off the bat!

[acryon]

Hey Newbie,

I see you played one game when you signed up and got killed pretty quickly and appear to be in two now. How much of a newbie are you actually? Much IRL experience?

[acryon]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mathdino

Hi Newbie, how do you feel about voting Mathdino with us?

Why are you changing your vote?
Not voting until there's more info.

I sometimes come in and abstain from voting during RVS because most others have voted and I don't like to add to the noise, which makes sense as a reason to me. But your reason is that you don't have enough info...for a

random

vote?

[acryon]

Honestly, I know people here do joke votes on the first day, but where I'm from, the time limit is much smaller so we get serious pretty quickly. Therefore, I will not throw out a vote until more people begin to post and things get rolling and then I can start analyzing.

But don't you think it first requires players voting randomly to get the ball rolling?

[acryon]

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

@wgeurts: RVS wagons can be good ways of getting reactions out of people. Why so concerned?

Speaking of reactions, you're kind of under the heat Mathdino. How does it feel? Why are you town?

[acryon]

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?

I think it's fine. Especially with someone who seems to be new, it's nice to get a feel for how they play so you don't end up just writing off the things they do as "newbie".

[acryon]

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?

I think it's fine. Especially with someone who seems to be new, it's nice to get a feel for how they play so you don't end up just writing off the things they do as "newbie".

Thanks Mathdino that's what I wanted to.....hold up a sec. Your not Mathdino.

I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, which

tends

to be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?

[acryon]

Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?

Not good.

What are you going to do about that?

Vote you as this is not sitting well with me.
VOTE: Wisdom

So you said you wouldn't vote until there was more info.

This

is more info? Explain.

[acryon]

It's weak info and very assumptious but ok:
You could well be trying to decieve people to look like your a joking town while you may be scum.
It's all the info I've got right now, it's time for me to wait for more.

[acryon]

Yeah now that you point that out, Wis, it kinda looks like Victor's fishing for anything "suspicious" that may not actually be scummy. Would've labeled that noobtown behaviour but the join date says otherwise.

FoS: that guy

Yeah, my vote stands. I'm interested to hear what Victor's intent was asking that?

[acryon]

I'm not, it's all a reaction test. For one you took it well by labeling me as newb and moving on. This is slightly town from you as you could have jumped on my BS reasons.
Anyway, there's nothing to gain here.
UNVOTE: Wisdom

That's it? Why wouldn't you leave your vote on and keep some pressure to get more/better reactions out of Wisdom? Seems odd to say that there's nothing to gain there after one small exchange.

[acryon]

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

It completely depends on intent and outcome. I think Mathdino's intent was to establish a play-style for Newbie which he could compare to Newbie's play as the game goes on, so as to avoid writing off Newbie's actions as newb-scum or newb-town. This is a good intent and a favorable outcome for town, as it potentially helps us avoid a mislynch based on bad information. I'm not sure what your intent was, but the outcome for town from your question is that he answers exactly as he did, but then others may avoid those types of questions in fear of being scrutinized, which is overall a negative for town. Not that I think your question carried the kind of weight to make an impact quite like that, but I do think it discourages certain forms of questioning.

[acryon]

Also, I have new person I want wagon.

VOTE: wgeurts

Everyone get aboard.

Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.

Well then you aren't thinking hard enough, because of the handful of posts you have had, they have certainly been suspect.

[acryon]

Also, why does it bother you that I'm not voting him?
Are you possibly scum knowing he's town?
As far as I know we're still only just leaving RVS.

It doesn't bother me personally that you're not voting him. But if you are interested in getting out of RVS(which I think we are by now), then I don't know that voting and then un-voting after one exchange is going to give the reactions necessary to do that.

Well then you aren't thinking hard enough, because of the handful of posts you have had, they have certainly been suspect.

Care to explain what is suspect about them may I ask?

It's nothing major, but the fact that you expressed your unwillingness to vote until there is more information and then turning around and voting Wisdom was kind of an odd move.
43 with the comment "It's time for me to wait some more" just sounded very off IMO. At first you make it sound like you don't vote in RVS, then you vote in RVS, then when someone calls you out on that you decide that it's time to wait again. Then you say there is nothing to gain from the Wisdom vote in 48 which is odd considering the whole point of voting in RVS is to see what comes out, so why would you decide that nothing would come of it?

I didn't say it was super scummy, but I think it'd be a little silly to say that your early set of posts weren't at least a little bit "odd" and at least somewhat deserving of a second look/pressure vote.

[acryon]

Newbie is probtown.

Why?

[acryon]

There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.

I called out out on your vote the very post after you voted. And you said you wouldn't vote until you had more info, but then you say that you used your vote to gain more info. Using votes to get info is very important, but it doesn't match up with how you said you would be voting, which is why I pointed it out.

Newbie is probtown.

Why?

Mainly gut in accordance to how her posts are coming off. She doesn't really come off panicky or nervous or anything like that. Her giving out the information about the sites etc doesn't feel like it's from a scum agenda.

That's fair, but then again I don't know that Newbie would come across panicky or nervous as scum, since, as they said, they are sort of still learning the site. And I think someone references this later, but she was asked for the sites, so it would look kind of bad if she didn't give them. And she could lie about it, but if for some reason someone happened to know it was Newbie from another site, then she would be screwed. Something tells me it just wouldn't be worth it to run that lie as scum anyway. It's null to me.

I should of been clearer, I don't vote for no reasons in the RVS, that doesn't mean I won't vote. There was also nothing to gain from the wisdom exchange as there were no real reads/tells to base it off. However it did achieve it's goal of making us leave RVS.
Another point, is it scummy to say you're going to abstain or to just abstain and lurk?

My point about the Wisdom exchange is that one back-and-forth is far too little to determine "there were no real reads/tells to base it off". Scum don't tend to slip at all after one question; it's after consistent pressure that their stories sometimes get twisted.

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

@wgeurts: RVS wagons can be good ways of getting reactions out of people. Why so concerned?

Speaking of reactions, you're kind of under the heat Mathdino. How does it feel? Why are you town?

I thought it was pretty clear that this post was only semi-serious, and was just to see how he would handle the question. There was obviously not a good answer to why he was town, but it can certainly be telling

how

someone handles this type of question.

You do realise sometimes people let stuff slip easier if they think they're safe?

This is just wrong.

For what it's worth though, all of these exchanges with wgeurts do lead me to believe he is town. He may be wrong, but I think he is wrong town.

I don't like Acyron injecting here.

Here's the thing. I have seen this type of thing happen many times IRL and several times in my few games on here, and it almost always comes from scum. I always try to call it out when I see it, because it tends to be the beginnings of scum controlling the flow of conversation, something I'm not interested in seeing happen. There is a difference between questioning someone for the sake of getting information with which to base reads and questioning someone about how they are playing the game. The former is more often town and the latter is more often scum.

P-edit: Sorry for the wall-post ><

[acryon]

If you think that comment from VDA could of come from scum, do you think it would of been better to see how Mathdino responded to it and where VDA was going with it?

In short, no. There was only one real answer, and I think there is more value for town in interjecting denying that type of questioning than hear the obvious answer.

You say you are worried about scum controlling the flow of conversations, but don't you think you are doing the same thing by injecting yourself into the conversation and trying to control it?

In a sense, yes, but I would argue that I was trying to (not to be overly dramatic) ensure the power remains with the town majority rather than in the hands of one. I know this all seems like I am making a bigger deal out of something than it really is, but I have seen scum do this type of thing enough times that I would rather call it out when I see it. In the past when I haven't, I end up getting lynched later on because the town is already wrapped around their finger, and then we are in an even worse spot.

I also want to be clear that I'm not saying VDA is definitive scum at all, but that type of question specifically has come from scum far more often than not in my experience, and I would rather establish this idea now than later on in the game where it may look like I am grasping at straws.

[acryon]

I recommend others to look at Newbies ISO.
Ignore his meta, the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it.

While I'm usually the first to say that I hate meta, specifically with experienced players, I think it could actually be somewhat beneficial in the context of Newbie. Additionally, there is both scum and town-motivation to provide the meta in that spot, so it is definitely a null.

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

Let's be honest here. If your intent with that vote was to get us out of RVS, then why did you almost immediately back down and unvote before much of anything even came of it?

[acryon]

@Acyron:

The problem I had with you answering a question that was for someone else is you could influence their answer. if I'm looking for a certain reaction or someone else is looking for a certain answer and you injecting explaining how you feel automatically removes any intent to do so which isn't something that town should do. In fact you doing that is something scum does in order to protect a scum partner. So yes I hated you doing it because it influenced an answer while giving the feeling you are trying to protect someone.

I definitely agree with you in theory. But in this circumstance, it wasn't exactly an overly-complicated question and there was only one real, and very simple answer. In this case, I don't think what I did stopped any extra information anyway.

Eh. Tbh I feel like scum wouldn't do it so blatantly.

Yes, but the problem is the rest of his posting this game has shown a lot of newb-tells, which means it's hard to say what wgeurts scum would do in that spot, so the WIFOM applies even less. A lot of his posting could be applied to newb-town, newb-scum, and regular scum, which one I am not quite sure yet.

[acryon]

I don't see him blatantly stating "Are you a mason" as a newbscum. As regular scum imitating a newbtown maybe.

Well certainly. I said "most" of his posting. There are some things he has said that are far more likely to come from one or the other, but I think overall a lot of it could come from any of them.

[acryon]

Honestly it is probably a lot more gut than anything for me. I probably shouldn't let that primarily drive me, but I have just seen people like wgeurts lynched so many times for being really scummy when they are actually just newbie(not to be confused with Newbie).

[acryon]

V/LA until Monday morning CST.

[acryon]

I want to preface this by saying sorry for the wall, but you guys post a lot in a couple days a person is gone!

Okay my loves. The wagon on Wge is bad and you all unvote. This is townflail and not scumflail

I think this lady is right people. The only issue that I think may be worth pointing out is that wgeurts sort of kept doing his own thing until mala stepped in and posted this. This psot from her seemed to cause his turn-around, so it reads to me like it could possibly be coaching. Although I think there is a

very

small chance that this is actually the case, I think it is worth noting.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts
Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

It definitely seems fishy, to be sure, but at the same time, I'm not sure what his possible courses of action could have been. Stay the course until he gets lynched? That doesn't seem too great. You pretty much have to move on from here. Like I said, it does strike me as a little odd that it took Mala saying something for him to do it, but it had to happen sometime I guess, so I'd rather not put too much weight on that interaction.

Also, what's stopping from all masons claiming?
It would confirm 3 town out of 13, masons aren't exactly more powerful than town.

I don't think wgerts is scum, but it's almost as some made-up role that benefits from being lynched. If people still think he may be scum, I think we are much better off waiting it out, because you can just ignore the comments like the above in the mean-time, and he is almost definitely town. I think we are wasting our time discussing what is pretty clearly, IMO, a bad bad lynch.

I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.

unvote

vote: Wisdom

This is a good point and it is worth pointing out that as soon as wgeurts said Wisdom may be scum pushing his wagon from the sidelines and not backing it up with a vote, he immediately votes wgeurts on the faulty reasoning that he unvoted himself even though he was asked to do so by several and asked to give the reads he did on his wagon. This was a no-win situation for wgeurts. Something I can see scum pushing.

I don't actually like this argument at all. It has been abundantly clear where Wisdom's intentions were. As someone that tends to prefer questioning over voting for pressure, I can relate to this somewhat. If a wgerts lynch went through, I doubt anyone would be ignorant enough to think that Wisdom wasn't involved in getting the wagon going. Wisdom is still a null to me at this point, but I think this argument is bad.

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

Actually, my reasoning is pretty solid and I'm sticking with it for now. I am not really caring for the sheeping comments from mathdino or the comments from you either so if you guys get me lynched, I'll flip town, and be out of the game and then you guys can go back to leaving the new players alone-newbie, wegeurts, myself and actually go after real scum, unless of course one or both of you is scum doing this in which case, it would make sense.

This is just a very confusing comment and I'm not sure what to make of it. Definitely seems like some weird AtE. I can't say for sure, but it just really rubs me the wrong way.

Sure new players can be scum and no I don't feel like I'm going to be lynched yet. I'm not understanding the scum case you and mathdino are working up to on me tbh. I feel like it is very superficial. I am giving my opinions and you two are jumping on me for it and again, for reasons that are not clear to me. It feels like a set-up.

This is just a very weak defense. It looks like you ran a random-mafia-defense generator and this came out.

You say I fabricated a case on you. What makes you say that?

The fact that you pulled posts based on an ISO of me, gave your interpretation of my thoughts, and asked others what they thought of me, with zero questions directed at me or giving me any chance to explain or defend myself.

How is that bad at all? Some people like to question players directly, and others like to present some information and poll the audience.

I'm seriously questioning even continuing with this game as I don't like spending the majority of my time on defense over accusations that make no sense and that I can't seem to defend myself from because you two aren't going to like anything I say.

That takes all the fun out of the game for me and I can relate even more to what wgeurts was feeling.

More AtE. That is what this game is. If you aren't on the defense, someone else is.

Breaking vote parity may be helpful, especially since I don't like the case on Wisdom. So someone needs to give me a better reason than what has been presented.
VOTE: SilverWolf

[acryon]

354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup. ?

I said there was a

very

small chance that this was what was happening, so I understood it was a big stretch.

And I obviously wasn't referring to him actually being a jester. I know the set-up of this game and I had never heard of a jester so I didn't even know that was a thing. I was more of commenting on the complete silliness of his play, because it almost seems like he wants to be lynched because of how bad some of the stuff he is saying is. It's just so hard for me to believe that someone who is actually scum could be saying things that were that scummy. That kind of player is almost always town in my experience, but at the same time, when the slot of scum it makes you feel like an idiot for not lynching them much earlier.

I am pretty confident wgeurts is town, but that is purely based on my experience with players that are playing like he does. That's probably stupid play on my part, but it's kind of hard to ignore my gut, at least this early in the game when it's the main thing I have to work from. SilverWolf definitely seems like a much better lynch to me, but a wgeruts lynch could possibly give us some good information, especially if he does happen to flip scum. But I don't exactly like the idea of lynching based on that.

[acryon]

@acryon-tell me exactly why I am such a good lynch. So far you've said AtE and vote parity because you don't like the Wisdom wagon. Is that it so far?

I thought I said more than that? And others said things that I didn't feel I needed to repeat. But I will for posterity.
-Use of AtE more than once.(323, 347)
-Very weak defense that lacked any real conviction. (335)
-Terrible argument about Dino "fabricating" a case on you. (437)
-Agreement with Newbie's weak argument that you back up with similarly flawed reasoning. (308)
-Agreement with Newbie another time where Newbie's argument wasn't necessarily bad, but your post added approximately nothing (84)
-Reasoning for voting Victor was just an argument I made much earlier; nothing original added at all. (98)
-In 121, after just saying in 98 that you thought the questioning of Victor was making a problem out of nothing, you question my questioning of Victor on it, asking where it might have gone even though in 98 you eluded to the fact that it wasn't an actual problem, and was thus, going nowhere.
-135. Not sure how that vote from Newbie would have been opportunistic at all. It was completely in the spotlight and was the second vote on the wagon. I would hardly call that opportunistic. If Newbie was 3rd or 4th maybe, and if Newbie's reasoning was bad, but it wasn't terrible.
-247 is another seemingly pro-town comment that lacks any real original content.

TLDR; other than the first two points I made, a lot of it has to do with you piggy-backing off of others' content to make it seem like you are scum-hunting. Opportunistic, in short.

[acryon]

354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup. ?

And I obviously wasn't referring to him actually being a jester. I know the set-up of this game and I had never heard of a jester so I didn't even know that was a thing. I was more of commenting on the complete silliness of his play, because it almost seems like he wants to be lynched because of how bad some of the stuff he is saying is. It's just so hard for me to believe that someone who is actually scum could be saying things that were that scummy. That kind of player is almost always town in my experience, but at the same time, when the slot of scum it makes you feel like an idiot for not lynching them much earlier.

I don't really like the whole too scummy to be scum argument. It assumes that scum are always experienced and competent and yet townies will derp around and make bad plays.

I know, which is why I am torn on this. The main reason being that the majority of "too scum to be scum" players in my experience are in fact, town.

I am pretty confident wgeurts is town, but that is purely based on my experience with players that are playing like he does. That's probably stupid play on my part, but it's kind of hard to ignore my gut, at least this early in the game when it's the main thing I have to work from. SilverWolf definitely seems like a much better lynch to me, but a wgeruts lynch could possibly give us some good information, especially if he does happen to flip scum. But I don't exactly like the idea of lynching based on that.

What's wrong with lynching for information? Day 1 lynches tend to be the least important in terms of actually catching scum and often simply lynching a scummy player is good play. If Wguertes is town then he is playing badly, he's claimed vt (so if we leave him alive then scum have one less target when hunting masons) and he will always be a question mark going forward (since there's no way of clearing players).

This is definitely a good point. Even on day 1, however, I would rather not resort to an informational lynch with a (IMO) low probability of being scum. I think my inability to really read the player makes me uneasy about making any lynch decision on them. Definitely a wgeurts lynch is better than a no-lynch and a number of other possible lynches. But I would still need to be convinced that it's a better lynch than someone like SilverWolf.

[acryon]

@acryon-tell me exactly why I am such a good lynch. So far you've said AtE and vote parity because you don't like the Wisdom wagon. Is that it so far?

I thought I said more than that?

And others said things that I didn't feel I needed to repeat

. But I will for posterity.
-Use of AtE more than once.(323, 347)
-Very weak defense that lacked any real conviction. (335)
-Terrible argument about Dino "fabricating" a case on you. (437)
-Agreement with Newbie's weak argument that you back up with similarly flawed reasoning. (308)
-Agreement with Newbie another time where Newbie's argument wasn't necessarily bad, but your post added approximately nothing (84)
-Reasoning for voting Victor was just an argument I made much earlier; nothing original added at all. (98)
-In 121, after just saying in 98 that you thought the questioning of Victor was making a problem out of nothing, you question my questioning of Victor on it, asking where it might have gone even though in 98 you eluded to the fact that it wasn't an actual problem, and was thus, going nowhere.
-135. Not sure how that vote from Newbie would have been opportunistic at all. It was completely in the spotlight and was the second vote on the wagon. I would hardly call that opportunistic. If Newbie was 3rd or 4th maybe, and if Newbie's reasoning was bad, but it wasn't terrible.
-247 is another seemingly pro-town comment that lacks any real original content.

TLDR; other than the first two points I made, a lot of it has to do with you piggy-backing off of others' content to make it seem like you are scum-hunting. Opportunistic, in short.

So far you are just disagreeing with the points I am making and using the same old argument mathdino and Wisdom are using regarding the piggy-backing without using any real original content. I've already answered to this. You just don't like it. Where's your original content in your case above?

Which is why I only posted the original parts in my post with the vote on you, as I mentioned in the very post you just replied to...

[acryon]

@Acryon

- Let me put it this way, other than silverwolf, how many players in the game right now would you say are scummier than Wgeurtes (I don't need a list of names just a rough number)?

@Silverwolf

- Why do all players scumreading you need to provide original content?

Other than Silverwolf, probably 0. I'm unsure on Wisdom, but the actual cases made by those on his wagon suck.

[acryon]

@Silverwolf

- Why do all players scumreading you need to provide original content?

That is the reason they are giving for scumreading me. Telling me I am sheeping other ideas without providing original content. I've answered to this but it continues to be used.

So why is it a problem for me and not for them?

Wrong. The reason for you is

consistent

sheeping. Scum are never usually scummy for singular actions, but for patterns.

[acryon]

Except this is the exact thing I am being attacked over. Having similar reasons for scumreading someone that someone else has. It makes no sense to me.

And what is your answer to my response other than "I didn't ask you"?

[acryon]

Ok, here are some specifics SilverWolf.

You say I fabricated a case on you. What makes you say that?

The fact that you pulled posts based on an ISO of me, gave your interpretation of my thoughts, and asked others what they thought of me, with zero questions directed at me or giving me any chance to explain or defend myself.

How is that bad at all? Some people like to question players directly, and others like to present some information and poll the audience.

I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.

unvote

vote: Wisdom

This is a good point and it is worth pointing out that as soon as wgeurts said Wisdom may be scum pushing his wagon from the sidelines and not backing it up with a vote, he immediately votes wgeurts on the faulty reasoning that he unvoted himself even though he was asked to do so by several and asked to give the reads he did on his wagon. This was a no-win situation for wgeurts. Something I can see scum pushing.

I don't actually like this argument at all. It has been abundantly clear where Wisdom's intentions were. As someone that tends to prefer questioning over voting for pressure, I can relate to this somewhat. If a wgerts lynch went through, I doubt anyone would be ignorant enough to think that Wisdom wasn't involved in getting the wagon going. Wisdom is still a null to me at this point, but I think this argument is bad.

[acryon]

You haven't discussed either of the posts I just quoted above with anyone.

[acryon]

*Sigh* Nobody discussed the two posts I was commented on from you, nor are there answers to the comments I posed in the quotes I re-posted above.

For the sake of avoiding beating a dead horse, I'll make things very simple and clear. Forget what I think about the rest of your posting history and everything else, and just answer me these questions.

Question 1:
How is MathDino making a case on you based on your ISO rather than engaging you directly bad?

Question 2:
Do you really think that just because Wisdom didn't have his vote in place that people would forget his push on wgeurts? Do you not think that his intentions and actions were clear enough even without the vote?

[acryon]

*Sigh* Nobody discussed the two posts I was commented on from you, nor are there answers to the comments I posed in the quotes I re-posted above.

For the sake of avoiding beating a dead horse, I'll make things very simple and clear. Forget what I think about the rest of your posting history and everything else, and just answer me these questions.

Question 1:
How is MathDino making a case on you based on your ISO rather than engaging you directly bad?

I answered MathDino last night when he asked me this and you'll find it in my ISO. If you have something else you want to know, ask.

You really didn't. The comment I made was on this post:

You say I fabricated a case on you. What makes you say that?

The fact that you pulled posts based on an ISO of me, gave your interpretation of my thoughts, and asked others what they thought of me, with zero questions directed at me or giving me any chance to explain or defend myself. You are accusing me of not having much of a case on Wisdom but your case on me was much weaker. I feel like both yourself and Wisdom are picking at anyone you think is going to be an easy target which makes me look at both of you as scum looking for the easy mislynch.

And he never replied to you after that so you couldn't have replied to his question about that post.

Question 2:
Do you really think that just because Wisdom didn't have his vote in place that people would forget his push on wgeurts? Do you not think that his intentions and actions were clear enough even without the vote?

No and Yes. I explained the problem I had with Wisdom's vote and several other posts laying out my case in detail last night. If you have a specific question, that has not been discussed already, ask.

Bottom line is, I'm not going to continue to repeat myself on issues you are bringing up that have already been discussed in detail and are not original thoughts from you. The same issue you say you are having with me.

Here is what I think the problem is. You seem to think that there is only one answer to any number of questions concerning something you did. The reality is, there are many pieces to a single comment/action, and I commented on, and asked you to address, pieces that hadn't been addressed yet. If anyone thinks I am being too nit-picky here, then fine, but I don't think what I'm asking for is overly-complicated. Clearly I'm not convinced that you had answered the questions

I

was asking, so you could have easily just linked the responses you thought fulfilled what I was looking for, because I can't find them.

[acryon]

Mathdino, I could see SilverWolf being town actually. There is a passion in her defenses that makes me think they might be genuine. I also think that as scum she would more try to appease you than antagonise you.

I feel wgeurts is the much better choice for today.

I would much prefer a SilverWolf lynch, but if that can't get going then I do think wgeurts is the next best.

Revisiting wgeurts-181 and 182are horrible and I am wondering if scum would be so blatant about 182 but it was extremely scummy. Many of his posts in his defense of himself to mathdino I can totally relate to as are his emotional responses. 264 looks like a town post. 287 I can completely understand. 288 was scummy as hell.

Yeah, So this is a tough read. I feel he is frustrated town but some of his posts are so scummy that it's hard to ignore. Not sure here. Would like him to come back to the thread.

This post to me reads like an opportunity to kill the momentum on his own wagon by adding onto the existing wgeurts wagon.

Just a quick thought I wanted to put out there. While Mathdino seems to be the biggest scum hunter so far, his posts are very detailed and analytical. I am finding Mathdino's voting suspicious. It's very wishy washy. His vote has changed 3 times in one real time day (yesterday).

What do people think about Mathdino's posting?

@Mathdino, I see you've asked for my views on the Silver discussion. I'll get back to you later tonight with where I stand on it. Need to check whether something Silver claimed is true or not.

it is completely fine. MathDino is super super town IMO. He is doing actual scum-hunting, and his vote-switching just shows his desire to let multiple people feel the pressure, which is good.

I don't see why it's unlikely that a wgeurts lynch will happen. We have plenty of time left and even a slot who hasn't posted.

Here is the problem with the wgeurts lynch. Everyone thinks he is playing very scummy and saying very scummy things. In fact, I'm suspicious of anyone who seems totally convinced that he is definitely town, because I don't think anyone should be able to say confidently at this point that he is. However, despite everyone thinking he is doing scummy things, not many people really think he is actually scum. Newbie's just throw everything off, and I know personally I am constantly questioning my newbie reads.

I'm not saying this is damning, but wgeurts has been on and posting actively in other threads since his last post on here, but hasn't posted here. This could be him recognizing that by stepping away he could let someone else (SilverWolf) take some heat and hopefully his wagon would die down.

[acryon]

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

There is no reason to believe a wgeurts lynch won't happen today. Your logic is faulty.

I disagree. I think it is reasonably likely that, at this point in time, the momentum doesn't exist for a wgeurts lynch.

[acryon]

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

There is no reason to believe a wgeurts lynch won't happen today. Your logic is faulty.

I disagree. I think it is reasonably likely that, at this point in time, the momentum doesn't exist for a wgeurts lynch.

I'm not sure where you come up with that idea since we have a week or more until deadline and several haven't contributed enough yet to even determine where they stand yet.

386 is a good example of where the town is at generally. I think it would be hard for wgeurts to do anything even scummier than he has done so far, so I doubt new actions by him will change much of the case. At this point, you either think wgeurts' scummy actions are probably scum, or you think they are probably town. I don't think many people are truly on the fence. Either you are willing to vote the kind of play from that kind of player, or you're not at this point. That's my thoughts at least. Reading back over this, it is kind of confusing, but I'm trying to say that basically there is a small chance someone is going to "connect the dots" with wgeurts posts and crack the case wide open. It kind of is what it is at this point.

[acryon]

Yeah, he's said some scummy things no doubt. Some of his posts look like frustrated newbtown also. Just because I haven't committed to a vote yet and want to hear more from him, in no way means I am never going to vote for him. I would not allow a NL to happen on D1 regardless if it came to that and there's a week left.

Well I don't think anyone is saying it's between a NL and wgeurts, because I think we would all accept a deadline wgeurts lynch over a NL. But I think the idea is that at this point in time, it certainly seems that the traction isn't there for a lynch-proper.

[acryon]

I'm reading post 360 by acryon and I'm very confused. For one, the last post he links (247) is not to a Silver Wolf post at all, it's to a Newbie post. Overall, this seems to be an echo of Mathdino's case, which is that Silver Wolf is a sheep (ironic, a Wolf in a sheep's clothes, I know).

That tag should have been to 257--my mistake. But myself, as well as Mathdino have already pointed out what parts of my case/questioning differed from simply the sheep argument.

Wge would have to be really ballsy scum and be confident that his partners are good at playing scum to intentionally mason fish in thread.

You don't think that could come from ignorant/newb-scum?

[acryon]

I don't care for a few things this post. The mason fishing argument is bunk and Malakittens has wgeurts as a townread anyway so I'm not sure where these hypothetical associative tells come into play or why it's worth mentioning. Also, I've notice that multiple people (not just Malakittens) say the phrase "I could see X as scum." This is a completely meaningless buzz-phrase, in my opinion. If I thought long enough I could imagine

anyone

being scum but that doesn't make the line of thought any more valid or worth pursuing.

This paragraph makes TTH my biggest town-read.

(As an aside, you're probably confusing me and blind because we both have black and white avatars. I'll try to find a color one when I have time.)

Done.

[acryon]

You made it too high, acryon. It doesn't fit.

I know, I realized that afterward =(

Try this one, should be good:

[acryon]

I'm not scum anymore?

Also explain of your reads please

All of them?
Ok, I'll make a detailed post on them later. You're null/scum and I'm going to have to reanalyse your posts.

Speak English, there is no such word as "ok". Okay I say, kay? You are Oncorporeal. There was nothing stopping you from posting in the last hour.
Enlighten us dutchman?

Who are you talking to, because how do you know whether there was something stopping them from posting? That's fine if you want to post in this ridiculous way, as long as you make your content and direction clear.

[acryon]

Who are you talking to, because how do you know whether there was something stopping them from posting? That's fine if you want to post in this ridiculous way, as long as you make your content and direction clear.

Child, you test my patience and sanity. With my patience goes my stability. With my sanity goes my judgement.
Do you think me a madman? Lord sojourn our victory, for this man be an utter fool! A fool's fool!

Grace us with the highlights of the game fool.

You didn't answer the question. And it tends to be customary for a replacement to read through the thread, not be spoon-fed reads by the town, especially when we are only one day in.

[acryon]

Constantine do you really have to post like that? It's getting annoying fast.

Agreed. I was tired after about 1 post. It's enough to bring out the lurker in anyone.

[acryon]

The yellow top hat was very lovely, acryon.

My new avatar should further distinguish me from blindmewithscience, though.

Just glad I got the opportunity to show off my work.

I don't care for a few things this post. The mason fishing argument is bunk and Malakittens has wgeurts as a townread anyway so I'm not sure where these hypothetical associative tells come into play or why it's worth mentioning. Also, I've notice that multiple people (not just Malakittens) say the phrase "I could see X as scum." This is a completely meaningless buzz-phrase, in my opinion. If I thought long enough I could imagine

anyone

being scum but that doesn't make the line of thought any more valid or worth pursuing.

This paragraph makes TTH my biggest town-read.

Why, care to elaborate?

This thought process and mindset from TTH are extremely town IMO. It wouldn't make any sense for scum to shoot down multiple arguments. It makes more sense to leave them going or just shoot down one to appear town. I think it is very unlikely for that paragraph and explanation specifically to come from scum.

I have zero problems with the language so I'm not really sure why people got all pissy other than him asking for reads before giving them himself I can see as a valid issue, but beyond that.. nothing..

It's primarily the second part, but the problem worsens due to the role-playing. He has time to role-play and decide special word-choice, but not to read through a relatively short thread? Now that he has read through, the majority of his posts are fluff, asking for reads, and addressing a non-existent wgeurts mason-claim.

One thing that's kind of bizarre to me is how people are trying to tie together wgeurts and Mala. I think acryon and Wisdom mentioned this and someone else repeated it, if I'm recalling correctly. I think the accusations of "coaching" are just out-and-out wrong considering that Mala's characterization of wgeurt's "townflail" came

after

wgeurt's meltdown. It comes off to me as an angle to keep shoving the wgeurt's lynch and putting Mala on the defensive.

I do want to be very clear again that I thought it was something worth mentioning, but not at all likely.

[acryon]

I'm looking at Victor's ISO trying to make myself happy with a townread, but posts like 296, 356, 365, and 370 make me think I went wrong somewhere and he's actually scum.

There are pieces of 296 that I don't love, but the others seem pretty neutral to me. Anything specific that's pinging you?

[acryon]

Children, let's...

Excommunicate: VictordeAngelo

Would you call me crazy if the lord told me that none of the current lynch targets are scum?

Is that supposed to be a vote?

[01] VOTING METHOD: Votes must be in bold or in vote tags. example:

Vote: reinoe

or VOTE: reinoeIf you do not bold your vote or place in a tage, it will not be counted. You do have to place votes on their own line but you do not have to unvote before casting another vote.

[acryon]

@TTH
Are you still happy with your Wisdom vote?

[acryon]

Do you think Victor is scum protecting his buddy Wisdom?

Hello, the lord bears news, VictorDeAngelo is scum. Why has he not been stigmatized yet?

For the love of all that is good, please make a post that contains some read/reference/information and not just base-less crap. Eloquently worded garbage is still garbage. Be a good townie,

read the thread

, and enlighten us on the conclusions when you get there.

Actually, the only other person really suspecting Wisdom as that point was TTH. Also, my reasons for suspecting Wisdom were a bit different than TTH's, so...

What is your reasoning for suspecting Wisdom outside of disliking his interaction with wguerts?

[acryon]

@TTH
Are you still happy with your Wisdom vote?

I am.

For someone who absolutely demands explanations from everyone else, getting Wisdom's opinions on the game as a whole is like getting blood from a stone. I understand that he's townreading MathDino, which is a very popular opinion anyway, and scumreading wgeurts but everyone else in the game remains at a blank. The recent interactions with Mala seem halfhearted at best. Even the push on wgeurts feels oddly lethargic.

What do you find redeeming in Wisdom's activity? I'd really like to know.

I wouldn't say I find parts of his activity redeeming; I just don't find the other pieces damning. The main reasons I see for the wagon on him are due to the way he was pushing the wgeurts lynch. Maybe it's just me, but I certainly don't see scum being at the head of a wagon like wgeurts'. To anyone that feels wgeurts is town, I would be far more suspicious of both Victor and Blindmewithscience. It is almost always the subtle pushing that is by scum, not the hard pushing that Wisdom is doing.

[acryon]

What is your reasoning for suspecting Wisdom outside of disliking his interaction with wguerts?

Posts #1 and #2 by Wisdom are weird because they came after wgeurts' voting/unvoting of him as well as the

obvious

suspicious behavior that wgeurts was getting hounded for. I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.

There also hasn't been any real scum hunting from Wisdom, just a few comments here and there about certain players and questions towards certain players. It almost seems like Wisdom is skirting through this phase, asking just the right amount of questions in order to not set off any alarms.

I also think it's possible that Wisdom could've been trying to inch by inch put suspicion on VD with posts 1, 2, and 3.


Of course, if wgeurts flips scum, all of this will most likely become null.

I am always nervous of reads like this that are so dependent on the alignment of a certain player, especially since we won't get it without one of them dying. I am just not at all in favor of a lynch that is based on the alignment of the most reads-polarizing player in this game.

[acryon]

The lord says that if victor is scum, then mathdino is most likely his buddy. Jesus would know, he's ISO'd most of the player list.
@Acyron - I love you too, now how about you live up to my godly example, and stop sinning with rage?

I'm not mad. I am frustrated when the game is mucked up by people totally unwilling to give a rhyme or reason for any of their declarations.

[acryon]

I wouldn't say I find parts of his activity redeeming; I just don't find the other pieces damning. The main reasons I see for the wagon on him are due to the way he was pushing the wgeurts lynch. Maybe it's just me, but I certainly don't see scum being at the head of a wagon like wgeurts'. To anyone that feels wgeurts is town, I would be far more suspicious of both Victor and Blindmewithscience. It is almost always the subtle pushing that is by scum, not the hard pushing that Wisdom is doing.

There's a disconnect here for me to where I don't understand why your reads are the way they are.

The assertion that scum will

never

lead a wagon seems bananas to me. It's an absolute and it doesn't sound right, especially considering the wgeurts push itself.

I never said this. I said

I don't see

scum leading a wagon

like wgeurts'

. It just doesn't make any sense from a scum standpoint to be the one at the helm of a lynch like wgeurts, because then you just look terrible if he flips town. I would be shocked if scum didn't think that through. The only reason, I think, scum would ever be driving the wagon on someone like wgeurts is if he actually was scum. I certainly don't think scum will

never

lead a wagon, but I don't think they would ever lead a wagon on someone like wgeurts, who is such an easy lynch-target. It would just end up looking too opportunistic.

Take a quick look through Wisdom's ISO and tell me what kind of town goal he's working towards here. He's hammering on the same points on wgeurts and demanding explanations from everyone else all the while not actually engaging with anyone in any productive way.

Let me remind you that this is the same person who got mad at me after my first post for not "engaging" him.

If this "engage people" thing is

really

his philosophy, I would expect to see a lot more of it and more importantly, I would expect to see products of this process in the form of more refined reads. Instead I see some mealy-mouth rhetoric with Malakittens and softballing of blindmewithscience. There's no commentary on how he thinks the game is going as a whole and the questions he

does

ask lack impact. There's plenty of scum motivation for talking a lot without actually contributing to town progress, which is what I think Wisdom has been doing all game.

Constantine and acryon, can you sincerely defend your Wisdom townread?

The rest of this is a lot better than the first part you said. Looking through Wisdom's ISO, I tried to look at it as if he was scum. If he is scum, I think that definitely at least one of Mala and wgeurts is scum. If you think he is scum, I think he has to be bussing one of those two. Thoughts?

Considering a townread, I'm not townreading Wisdom. He is a null to me at this point. My thoughts on the alignment of Wisdom based on his interaction with wgeurts is based completely on wgeurts alignment at this point.

Ugh. I really want to vote Silver's slot again, but I really doubt there'll be a replacement for her anytime soon.

My vote is remaining on Silver, because her replacing out doesn't change the fact that I thought her play was scummy. She is still the scummiest person to me at this point in time, so I'm only going to change my vote to someone I think may be scummier. Although St Constantine is working pretty hard to change that with his mason-comments and general lack of real contribution.

[acryon]

If you go back to the first few pages, you'll see that Mathdino and Victor vote each other very early on. Constantine's argument isn't that they're masons, it's that they're scum who are distancing from each other by voting each other.

Here is the problem though: he is all over the place.

569: Victor is scum with Mathdino, vote victor!
571: Actually, Mathdino and Silverwolf are scum!

Should we lynch thy Mathdino, or thy Silverwolf.

And then unvotes Victor. Why was victor unvoted here and why did a vote for neither Mathdino or Silverwolf take its place?
576: Now the vote comes for Mathdino, Mathdino is definitely scum! Reiterates in 577.
595: Now Mathdino is town because of his emotional response?
597: States connection between Mathdino, Silverwolf, and Victor. So is Dino town or is he on a scum-team with Victor and Silverwolf?

I strongly dislike when players have scum-reads that are

so

dependent on being a team, and I dislike it even more when players then back down on one of these because of something that is certainly not redeeming(an emotional response from Dino). This problem is made worse in the set-up we are playing in, as pointing out connections could be leading scum to the mason-team, which is terrible considering how important it is late-game for us to keep them safe.

So are the three of them scum, or are they not? Which one is the best lynch?

[acryon]

Here is the problem though: he is all over the place.

I'm not arguing in favor of Constantine's point. I'm saying that Wisdom's insipid remark was out-of-context and not really applicable to what he was quoting.

That's fair.

[acryon]

While I personally don't

totally

subscribe to the sentiment expressed by Wisdom, both Finnlaw and Mathdino both expressed their agreement. Do you think Finn and Math are scum following scum-Wisdom? Because, while I agree that Wisdom's representation of what Constantine was saying was a little misconstrued, there have been multiple other players that have echoed the sentiment, so I think it's a difficult argument to make that it was scummy from Wisdom.

Regarding the rest with Wisdom, I've already expressed my thoughts on it. I definitely can't say I am confident he is town, but I see more of his play coming from (probably) misguided town than from scum, especially the hard wgeurts wagon.

You quoted his post and then complained about "making connections." The clear implication from this is that he shouldn't have made the connection because masons could give a false positive on this. That's not applicable because the specific "connections" Constantine was talking about was two scum voting each other to distance, something I'm assuming two masons wouldn't do.

While I didn't look at what exactly he was talking about, I don't doubt two masons would vote each other to muddy the waters

. In any case, connections before any flip happens should not happen, especially in this setup. This was my main point.

Agree with the unbolded, strongly disagree with the bolded.

[acryon]

I will be going on a pilgrimage. Apparently what you mafia players would call V/LA.
I'm not scum, I think that one of the three people I accused of being scum, is actually scum.

@Acyron - Being all over the place is a town tell, mate. It is quite common for town to make more accusations than scum, ie, a lot more opinions and new information to be taking in.

Don't tell me how something you are doing is a town-tell; you're not exactly an unbiased source. Even if you were, what you were doing definitely is

not

a town tell. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I would say it's a null, but in your case I'm not sure which way it is leaning. And it's not even about what you're doing being scummy; your flip-flopping and unclear ideas call into question your credibility, which is bad for town.

And you have now multiple times stated your thoughts that 2/3 of those players were inter-connected. And now you're saying

one

of them is scum? I can't be the only one that thinks you denying the idea that you aren't particularly trustworthy is disingenuous at best.

[acryon]

The rest of this is a lot better than the first part you said. Looking through Wisdom's ISO, I tried to look at it as if he was scum. If he is scum, I think that definitely at least one of Mala and wgeurts is scum.

If you think he is scum, I think he has to be bussing one of those two.

Thoughts?

I'm sorry, what's the basis for this? I don't follow.

Looking at Wisdom's ISO with the idea that he is scum, his hard push on wguerts and soft-push on mala leads me to believe that given Wisdom-scum, one of wgeurts/mala is definitely scum.

[acryon]

^^ Okay, tell me, what 9 players (2/3) did I claim were connected. To my knowledge, I only claimed there was a scum connection between mathdino, silverwolf, and victor. Also, what you're doing this game isn't very productive. You're pretty much just bitching at a lot of people and not contributing anything useful, so please don't play the pro-town card.

Now let's only post about relevant things. Not who's the better player, la la la nonsense. It helps no one.

2/3 as in 2 or 3, since you hinted at 3-player connections and 2-player connections amongst Dino/Victor/Wolf

[acryon]

Screw Freemasons, they're a shitty and absolutely worthless role

You're kidding right? If we keep our masons alive, we can get ourselves into a winning scenario much

much

more easily.

[acryon]

@Acyron - I'm serious about that. I think one of the three is scum. This is my belief. If you think it is wrong, tell me why.

I think it is wrong, because your posts regarding the connections between the players seems to indicate otherwise. You're wrong based on your analysis.

There is a connection between Mathdino, Victor, and Silverwolf. We already know it isn't a freemason connection, or they wouldn't of pushed wagons at each other.

[acryon]

I have a recently finished scum game of SW. Although not fully completed because she replaced out due to conflicts, but I feel there's enough information to compare here along with the other completed game she has here on site.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=59204

Even though it's a small research window it's enough to give me a baseline.

Don't have time to look through it at the moment, but first glance shows that she replaced in over 500 posts in and less than 100 posts before the lynch, so I'm a little wary of comparing her scum-play at the very end of the day replacing in one game vs this game where she only played the first half of the day. It

could

provide useful information, but I would advise comparison to be done with extreme caution.

[acryon]

Also I think TTH is deff town for 604. His views are deff mirroring what I feel in regards to SCtH's connection between SW, MD & VDA.

But then it gets even more confusing when Constantine then says he thinks one of them are scum...

pedit: Word.

[acryon]

The general lack of resistance to the Victor wagon makes me nervous. I can't say that I have a strong town-read on him at all, but I think we should be wary of a wagon with little-to-no push-back.

Constantine. I disagree with almost everything he is posting, although I don't necessarily think it's all purely scummy. I do think much of it is, including 720 specifically. That post is

really

bad. Why do you need to tell us why people are scummy? You're no the only experienced player in this game, and it's a little suspect to be "teaching" us what real scum look like. The only reason I see is because you say scum are ABC, and you are acting like XYZ, so of course you aren't scum. Not buying it.

VOTE: Constantine

[acryon]

I think that’s the issue for me. He isn’t posting as an uninformed player. He is clearly posting with confidence, and very often when someone is trying to lay down what is and isn’t scum in general, they are doing so to separate themselves from the picture they paint of scum.
It’s clear he has a deeper knowledge of the game, and it’s also (I think) clear that he was hoping to peddle some trash to the town in hopes of winning us over.

[acryon]

Yeah, self-meta and WIFOM is bad for sure. I can see where you're coming from Riddleton, but I think this is a case where we will be kicking ourselves in the future if we let scum playing like him live.

[acryon]

Ehh. I mean it is certainly something to consider post-flip, but right now it's all speculation so it isn't really worth talking about IMO.

[acryon]

I am not OK with a PL. I have had plenty of off-games, and at the moment, it seems pretty clear to me that this is one of those for you (at least in that instance). I would hope we can do better than choosing to lynch someone based on a simple mistake.

[acryon]

Acyron or Wisdom are either being reactionary to the victor wagon, or letting pride blind their reason.
So I'm being voted for some bullshit regarding my interpretations of what scum do?
Tunnel, Tunnel, Tunnel, Choo Choo!

This seems a little disingenuous. Look through my ISO and tell me that's the singular reason I am voting you.

[acryon]

Wisdom, I agree, I've been thinking about riddleton's hyper defense on me and I'm not sure what to make of it.
I think your guy's case and reasoning is incredibly idiotic, but that will be proven in due time with my flip.

Your flip actually has nothing to do with how sound the reasoning is, so don't try and say that as the answer to the case. You can have a good scum-case on a player that flips town. Just because it didn't turn out doesn't mean it was bad. If you think the case is so bad, then explain why, don't just say that the flip will prove it.

I am not OK with a PL. I have had plenty of off-games, and at the moment, it seems pretty clear to me that this is one of those for you (at least in that instance). I would hope we can do better than choosing to lynch someone based on a simple mistake.

This feels a little off considering you've been scumreading his slot for the whole game. What was the point you stopped scumreading SW?

I never said I was town-reading him. I am merely giving him the pass for 767, and making clear that I don't like the idea of PLing him ever because of that mistake. He is not off of my radar, but I would

much

rather pursue Constantine-scum at the moment than Riddleton-scum.

I'd be okay with a Riddleton flashwagon at this point. Dunno if it's viable given the deadline, but if there's support for such a thing, count me in.

This seems silly to me. You would rather go with a Riddleton wagon that Constantine(scum-read) would presumable be a part of than the Constantine wagon that Riddleton is questioning? If anything, I would say that there is a much greater chance that town-Riddleton is playing devil's advocate on a scum-Constantine wagon than Constantine-town is pushing a scum-Riddleton wagon.

[acryon]

If a player can play devil's advocate on wagon A why not do it for wagon B?

It makes much more sense that he's WKing wagon A for cred so he can push wagon B tomorrow.

What wagon B? Or are you just implying it as any wagon? And I think the problem is that so much of that theory has to do with Constantine's flip. I am totally fine revisiting that tomorrow, but it seems silly to vote for the wagon that has dependents yet to resolve over the wagon that is independent.

[acryon]

No. I'm talking about Victor wagon. The way he is tunneling on Victor does not make sense given he apparently does consider how scummy actions can have come from town.

Ok, that does make a little more sense, but I still think that Constantine is by far the better lynch given the reasons I explained in my last couple posts. The Constantine case doesn't get much if anything from a Riddleton flip. The Riddleton case would gain quite a bit from a Constantine flip. Given the thought that both could be scum, it makes more sense to go for Constantine today.

[acryon]

Dunno, the fact Constantine picked up on how this WKing and sudden switch looked bad kinda made me get cold feet because I totally agree

What??? He didn't pick it up; YOU picked it up. HE agreed.

This unwarranted imo defense of Constantine by Riddleton troubles me. If Constantine is actually town, Riddle might be scum going for the cred. And gain further momentum to push Victor on D2.

Wisdom, I agree, I've been thinking about riddleton's hyper defense on me and I'm not sure what to make of it.

[acryon]

I didn't mention anything about the switch though

Well regarding that, I don't even know that really happened. Can you point me to some dramatic switch from him? Him switching at all just means you were doing a good job convincing him, and isn't that kind of your goal? Why would you try to convince someone of something and then back off when you have finally convinced them? Being unwilling to ever change stance and being unwilling to be convinced isn't any more town than being convinced and changing your mind based on someone's case is scum.

[acryon]

The switch was "oh I didn't see that post, maybe you're right, I'll reconsider". It feels off after he insisted so much about how Constantine is town. Besides, I doubt he didn't see that post before, as he posted about it.

Eh, idk. I just don't see a scum-incentive whatsoever to lie in that situation. If his goal was to question the wagon and WK as scum, then it would have made far more sense to just stick to it and disagree with you, not concede that he made a mistake.

[acryon]

are replacements really null? Isn't it important to also important to consider who they're replacing?

Yes, they are definitely null. Especially since the majority of the time it is due to people recognizing an inability to keep up with the game. Most meta-reads suck, and this is certainly not one of the few that don't.

I was really hoping to get a Constantine lynch because he is my #1 by a good bit over Riddleton. Can we really not get a Constantine lynch going? Because I would

much

rather hear what Riddleton has to say tomorrow after we have a couple flips out of the way, and I'm skeptical of the traction existing at this point for it to get there.

[acryon]

The only way we can get a Constantine lynch:

A. Both Victor and Mala decide to vote him, or
B. Someone sucks it up and hammers Constantine just to avoid a NL. Not preferable. At all.

I very much doubt Victor will be active enough for A to be an option. So yeah, it's gonna be between Riddleton and Victor.

Well I am still quite unsure of being able to get 5 (correct me if I'm wrong) people to switch over to the Riddleton wagon in one day. You can consider me a vote if we can get there, but for now I'm going to stick where I'm at.

[acryon]

This lynch can happen, we just need the activity levels for it. I trust you'll be on again a few times before the deadline just in case, acryon.

I'll be on for the next 7 hours or so and then again about an hour before deadline, so I'm ready to do what we need to do.

[acryon]

I really dislike this Victor lynch. I don't think anyone has a good case for it, and I think that both Constantine/SilverWolf-Riddleton are considerably worse than him. Are we really going to lynch someone for pushing the easy lynch on wgeurts? Most towns I have been a part of lynch the wgeurts-type early on and it is almost

never

led by scum in my experience. Especially day 1, I don't think it makes any sense to push the easy lynch as scum, as it just makes you look terrible if they flip town.

I'll be around at deadline so I can reluctantly hammer so we avoid a NL, but I really hope we can move on Constantine/Riddleton before then.

[acryon]

You should give it here. At least an updated reads list.

[acryon]

Here is the Constantine story as told by some of my posts in this thread.

acryon, could you please restate or summarize why you want a Constantine lynch?

For the love of all that is good, please make a post that contains some read/reference/information and not just base-less crap. Eloquently worded garbage is still garbage. Be a good townie,

read the thread

, and enlighten us on the conclusions when you get there.

My vote is remaining on Silver, because her replacing out doesn't change the fact that I thought her play was scummy. She is still the scummiest person to me at this point in time, so I'm only going to change my vote to someone I think may be scummier. Although St Constantine is working pretty hard to change that with his mason-comments and general lack of real contribution.

If you go back to the first few pages, you'll see that Mathdino and Victor vote each other very early on. Constantine's argument isn't that they're masons, it's that they're scum who are distancing from each other by voting each other.

Here is the problem though: he is all over the place.

569: Victor is scum with Mathdino, vote victor!
571: Actually, Mathdino and Silverwolf are scum!

Should we lynch thy Mathdino, or thy Silverwolf.

And then unvotes Victor. Why was victor unvoted here and why did a vote for neither Mathdino or Silverwolf take its place?
576: Now the vote comes for Mathdino, Mathdino is definitely scum! Reiterates in 577.
595: Now Mathdino is town because of his emotional response?
597: States connection between Mathdino, Silverwolf, and Victor. So is Dino town or is he on a scum-team with Victor and Silverwolf?

I strongly dislike when players have scum-reads that are

so

dependent on being a team, and I dislike it even more when players then back down on one of these because of something that is certainly not redeeming(an emotional response from Dino). This problem is made worse in the set-up we are playing in, as pointing out connections could be leading scum to the mason-team, which is terrible considering how important it is late-game for us to keep them safe.

So are the three of them scum, or are they not? Which one is the best lynch?

I will be going on a pilgrimage. Apparently what you mafia players would call V/LA.
I'm not scum, I think that one of the three people I accused of being scum, is actually scum.

@Acyron - Being all over the place is a town tell, mate. It is quite common for town to make more accusations than scum, ie, a lot more opinions and new information to be taking in.

Don't tell me how something you are doing is a town-tell; you're not exactly an unbiased source. Even if you were, what you were doing definitely is

not

a town tell. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I would say it's a null, but in your case I'm not sure which way it is leaning. And it's not even about what you're doing being scummy; your flip-flopping and unclear ideas call into question your credibility, which is bad for town.

And you have now multiple times stated your thoughts that 2/3 of those players were inter-connected. And now you're saying

one

of them is scum? I can't be the only one that thinks you denying the idea that you aren't particularly trustworthy is disingenuous at best.

Screw Freemasons, they're a shitty and absolutely worthless role

You're kidding right? If we keep our masons alive, we can get ourselves into a winning scenario much

much

more easily.

@Acyron - I'm serious about that. I think one of the three is scum. This is my belief. If you think it is wrong, tell me why.

I think it is wrong, because your posts regarding the connections between the players seems to indicate otherwise. You're wrong based on your analysis.

There is a connection between Mathdino, Victor, and Silverwolf. We already know it isn't a freemason connection, or they wouldn't of pushed wagons at each other.

The general lack of resistance to the Victor wagon makes me nervous. I can't say that I have a strong town-read on him at all, but I think we should be wary of a wagon with little-to-no push-back.

Constantine. I disagree with almost everything he is posting, although I don't necessarily think it's all purely scummy. I do think much of it is, including 720 specifically. That post is

really

bad. Why do you need to tell us why people are scummy? You're not the only experienced player in this game, and it's a little suspect to be "teaching" us what real scum look like. The only reason I see is because you say scum are ABC, and you are acting like XYZ, so of course you aren't scum. Not buying it.

VOTE: Constantine

Very basically, 1) He has, on multiple occasions, tried to explain what is and isn't scummy. This tends to be done by scum, in my experience, to draw a line that they can then walk opposite of. 2) He has, multiple times, downplayed the importance and future impact of living masons to us in this game, and actively endangered them with stupid discussion about them. 3) Rather than contributing, he is asking everyone else to tell him what has happened in the game. This part isn't as much scummy as it is crappy town, but when dealing with scum, crappy town behavior is probably scummy

[acryon]

I hate not being available to posts on weekends because it is always so lively Reading through and there will be a (presumably) large post incoming. Just posting now so you know I am here.

[acryon]

I hope this is an example to follow my wagons in the future. As policy, you should only start wagons on people off the wagon, the day immediately after lynching scum.

Yeah, because scum don't bus...

Actually, good catch riddleton. Mathdino is confirmed super newbie scum.
VOTE: mathdino

Okay, ciao for the night.

Wrong. Mathdino is definitely town.

There have been a lot of suspicions about my slot yesterday regarding a mistake on my end regarding my Victor read. I want a PL of myself, preferably the day before LyLo if we've not got all scum by then.

I agree with this in principle, but let's not discuss it or worry about it until then.

This probably isn't a solid scum tell, but in the few times I've encountered it, every time a player kept trying to confirm someone as town, even when no one else was pushing the issue, one of the two ended up being scum. Can you just explain this to me a little bit more, because I'm not really catching your drift here.

I actually kind of agree here, but in my experience, it has basically always been scum trying to confirm a townie.

As a policy, I'm lynching off the wagon today,

I think others have already mentioned this, but I want to note again that this is a

terrible

policy. You're basically giving the scum a free day to live for bussing. This makes no sense.

Who does the NK benefit directly then? Wisdom is the obvious person that profits off her death. The question here (okay I'm only going one layer of wifom) is whether TTH was killed specifically to point to Wisdom.

The reason NK analysis can be very dangerous is because of situations like this. It was painfully obvious that TTH had a strong scum-read on Wisdom. So it could be scum-Wisdom knocking off someone that was suspecting him. It could just as easily be scum killing TTH to make people think town-Wisdom is scum. Or it could even be scum-Wisdom killing TTH in the hopes that people would believe scum-Wisdom wouldn't actually do that. This is why it tends to almost always a null to me.

I think this is a case of projection. Mala is actually the buddy so she accuses someone else of what she herself is doing.

I think this is very unlikely. Mala is almost definitely town.

I continue hating Constantine's posts, though he's prolly just quirky town after all. Don't see him bussing Victor like he did.

I disagree with this. I think Constantine is still scum. He

continues

to try and create a universal structure for scum and then dodge it. Most recent example being the idea that you never pursue someone on the wagon the day after a scum-lynch. Conveniently, he was on the scum-wagon.

To be really blunt. I had just hammered someone who was town and I felt really shitty that my reads were so wrong, so horribly wrong that game. I had beat myself up and figured that fuck it I'm sure VDA is scum so I felt like hammering and doing something right for a change.

But yes please try to equate my hammer as scummy

You are changing your story here. First it was "Oh, I didn't see we had 12 hours, better than NL", now it's on purpose because you were sure he's scum.

Yeah.

I get this, but I still think it's insane to think the hammer is scummy.

So why is Riddleton so hung up on it? Answer: He's advocating for a PL of himself because he knows that'll never happen, and it gives him towncred to talk about his own lynch.

Eh. I think that's kind of a stretch. I find it likely that scum would just stop talking about it after Victor flipped scum and thus proved their "mistake" null.

As for SilverWolf, in that game I linked I think someone who knew her said that she is very defensive when town, so dunno how much what you found applies here.

Eh, idk. I'm still torn on the PL talk from Riddleton. On the surface it is obviously town-motivated, but he is strangely very supportive of it. I'm still unsure what to make of it.

The remaining scum are Mala and most likely acryon.

What? Where did me being scum come from? Did you even mention me before now? The fact that you think Mala is scum is crazy to me, and unfortunately I am inclined to think you may still be town, albeit

very

misguided.

VOTE: Wisdom

Mala push sucks

There are legitimate reasons to think Wisdom is scum; this is not one of them.

If they both agree to it, I'd be up for lynching Wisdom and Mala in succession if the first lynch flips town or claims mason; their meta record of correctly reading each other is pretty undeniable. Just need Mala to convince me this isn't TvT.

Paging

blindmewithscience

,

borkjerfkin

, and

acryon

for their thoughts on this after Mala posts.

While I can see the merit in it, I would not be for this. I feel very strongly that Mala is town and Wisdom is also very likely town.

Plus work and plus his read is bullshit and he admits that has has read me wrong in the past as town but still would likely flat out go hey hey I thought she was town after I tunneled her so I can still read her which I find highly annoying. He did incorrectly read me and read me right after I claimed, so yes hence bullshit because he can't tell town mala from scum mala

Do you really think that his push on you is from scum? I find that very hard to believe.

Can we just speedlynch Wisdom, his 'case' on Mala is that she hammered a read a he wasn't confident in and drenched it in pointless spam to demoralise town and make it look he is making an effort and being productive. He's also perfectly content to pointlessly tunnel when it benefits him but this confidence dissipates as soon it might come back to him

If Mala gets lynched and flips town, who will you vote tomorrow?

I can't answer such hypotheticals. If such a thing happens, ask me then.

This post is also nonsense, if he's said something along the lines of "I'm confident enough in my reads that I need to yet" not "I can't" which is just an excuse to not get off of this tunnel

No! This is crazy. It is very likely this a TvT, and the fact that much of the town seems to be wrapped up in it is terrible for us. I think we need to table this and look elsewhere, because I don't think either of these two are leading us somewhere we want to go.

@Mala: I have agreed with chunks of what you have said, but you are wrong on this, and I'm not sure how you or others are seeing Wisdom as anything more than heavily-misguided town.

Bussing does happen, but it is very rare, and mostly done by newbs. I asked you this earlier, but have you ever played as scum before?

Are you

still

trying to say that scum don't really bus? Is this a joke?

TLDR

-Mala is definitely town, as is Mathdino
-Wisdom is most likely misguided-town, and we should stop the TvT
-Constantine is almost

definitely

scum.
-The fact that he thinks that scum are off the wagon is insane. I believe that probably that 2 scum are on the wagon(Constantine and one other I'm not sure of).

Other general reads although they are admittedly a lot less developed:
-Newbie is probably town.
-Wgeurts is almost definitely town.
-Riddleton could go either way.
-BMWS is probably null at this point.
-N_M is null, although his reasons (or lackthereof) for voting Wisdom are terrible.
-Bork is probably town.

[acryon]

Oh, just realized I forgot to vote:

VOTE: Constantine

[acryon]

any thoughts on my series of posts on Riddleton

I'm not using your meta to prove you're scum. I'm using it to prove that you haven't done anything that shows you're town.

I think this quote from you pretty much sums up my thoughts on it as well. Yesterday, I thought SW/Riddleton was scum due to the reasons I presented then. While I think those reasons still stand, I am much less convinced that he is scum because of Riddleton's posts. While not looking town and being town are often on opposite sides, they are certainly not mutually exclusive. SW did a lot to make me think the slot was scummy, but Riddleton is making me a little less sure. Additionally, I would much rather revisit this after a Constantine lynch, because almost everything he says is just pinging so hard.

How about my meta case on Victor?

I was in the newbie game where Victor was scum with TSO who became Mala. I didn't have the same feeling this game that I did with him that game, where I ultimately concluded he was town, but he obviously turned out to be scum. That game certainly played a part in my resistance to the Victor wagon, because it just didn't feel similar at all to me.

[acryon]

Additionally, I would much rather revisit this after a Constantine lynch, because almost everything he says is just pinging so hard.

I suppose since the only thing stopping me from a Constantine scumread is Riddleton, I'd be fine with that. Understand though that if Constantine is lynched and flips town, I'm going to be very resistant to not giving Riddleton the noose he asked for.

As will I.

I was in the newbie game where Victor was scum with TSO who became Mala. I didn't have the same feeling this game that I did with him that game, where I ultimately concluded he was town, but he obviously turned out to be scum. That game certainly played a part in my resistance to the Victor wagon, because it just didn't feel similar at all to me.

That wasn't my point; obviously I'm not trying to argue he's scum after the flip. My point was the associations I'm drawing from Victor's posts based on his behaviour that game. His behaviour toward people seems to point to wgeurts-town, you-town (won't ask you to comment on that, haha), Mala-town, and Silver-scum.

Well what I was getting at with that post was that I don't think his scum-play is consistent enough to draw conclusions based on his meta. While I do actually mostly agree with those conclusions, I don't agree with them because of his interaction with them.

[acryon]

Are we really this oblivious?

Come on man. You have posted half as many times as the next most inactive player, and the vast majority of your posts are one line with little-to-no real contribution. I respectfully ask that if you desire to be a part of this game, then you contribute like you actually are.

[acryon]

Just leave N_M alone. It's not like we actually think he's scum or anything we are voting him for pressure because he hasn't been contributing. Let's get back to the issue at hand, thanks!

I mostly agree. I do think it is fine to push someone that isn't contributing at all, because not only are they useless to town, but their lack of content makes them hard to read if they are scum. That being said, I also think that we should keep discussion focused on scummy actions rather than players that aren't helping (which can be scummy, but certainly isn't always). But you shouldn't let N_M off the hook for not contributing.

[acryon]

Just leave him alone. He actually does this as town all the time and is more commonly mislynch bait. He does more effort as scum. Yes, I have meta'd him in the past and played with him to actually know that~

Sorry, but that's stupid. If you're going to play this game and you are town,

then contribute to the town.

Is it really so bad to expect that from someone? I don't think he is scum at this point, but lurkers are actively bad for town. Not only due to the lack of contribution to progress scum-hunting, but because (as you mentioned), they make good mislynch bait. So why would you be ok with that?

[acryon]

Also, going back to

Vote: Wisdom

You indicated that you unvoted to hear what I had to say. I assume you have some comments on what you did/didn't like about what I had to say for the vote to come back?

[acryon]

Acyron isn't confirmed scum. Nothing in this game is confirmed, but I guarantee you town will win by lynching the two people off the wagon and the last two people on the wagon

This is completely wrong. If I had to throw out numbers I would say when scum are on a wagon it is 25% in the beginning, 50% in the middle and 25% in the end. The absolutes you are trying to put on this game are completely wrong and are severely skewing your perspective.

And why would you tell masons to claim?? We already went over why this is terrible.

I have already made my case on several occasions on why Constantine is scum, so I'm just going to do a run-down now as an appeal to the town:

First things first, he is not a village idiot. Probably the furthest thing from it. He knows exactly what he is doing which is why he speaks and acts as if this game functions in absolutes rooted in his own flavor of the game. He claims he has played many games, so should understand the late-game implications of living masons. Despite this presumed knowledge, he on multiple occasions near-outs the masons as well as straight-up asks for a claim. Since he has, again on multiple occasions, talked about how big of newbs most of the people in this game are, there is a good chance one of the masons could have claimed in response to his request, which would be bad for town. Thankfully, he is wrong about the town, and nobody bought into it, despite his multiple attempts. He has drawn multiple conclusions, most of which are based on incompatible associative tells. See 605 for a little run-down on that. This includes a claim in 597 that Mathdino, Victor, and SilverWolf have a non-mason connection, which implies a scum-team. Then in 627 changes his story and decides only one of them is scum, even though much of his initial discussion hinged on a shared alignment. In 720, he decides to enlighten the town with what makes scum. This is not being presented by someone who doesn't appear to understand the game(although he doesn't). It is presented by one of two people: grossly misinformed/newb/misunderstanding town, or pompous scum thinking they can manipulate the town into lynching his definition of scum(which he conveniently avoids being slotted into). Today, there are the obvious issues, including his

absurd

claim that you should always lynch off the wagon the day after the lynch, which may be one of the dumbest, most misinformed things I have ever seen stated as a policy.

I don't think it's possible to accept that Constantine is someone who doesn't know what he is saying and is simply misinformed. I think his statements and actions are clearly indicative of experience. The only two options are that he is a misinformed/misunderstanding player, or he is blatant, manipulative scum, and I think it is insane that you could accept the former as the truth in this case.

My vote remains on Constantine, and nothing short of a flat-out town-confirmation is getting me off of it.

[acryon]

@mod sorry to do this but I have to request replacement, I recently unexpectantly moved back into work and simply cannot keep up with the pace of this game. I will help you help you find a replacememt if you would like me to

Sorry guys, this is my first replace out, but it's just not possible for me to continue. I hope you follow what I said and understand it, this is a decent enough town but peoppe aren't looking past inactivity

For what it's worth, I never thought it was scummy; I was just frustrated by the inaction, especially since I know you are capable of more. I definitely respect your replace-out in light of this.

[acryon]

Replace-outs are null to me. Definitely want to hear from the replacement.

For sure, although I do think N_M is probably town.

[acryon]

He's a Troll.

Here's the thing about him being troll. There are certainly aspects of him that are extremely trolly (the RPing, calling everyone on this site bad, etc.), but he is not wholly a troll.

See the following quotes for examples of real/non-troll game-play that shows real interest in the game.

@Children, Please read back through Mathdino's ISO, or posts in general. Things I want people to study are his...
1. RVS Interactions
2. Push on SilverWolf
3. Intent behind his blocks of text

Actually my case on you and Victor is based off of intent, not association. My read on silver was association, that I'll concede.
If I'm scum reading you and victor, and you're actually contributing on a regular basis, by policy I would prefer to lynch victor.

Wguert's: Really is newb town, and is displaying the traits of what you could expect from a a game which promotes hysteria
Wisdom: Is town, because nothing he's done makes sense for someone playing as scum. He reacts like a townie, he picks fights like a townie. He really is a townie.

These are just a few examples of straight-up play, so I think writing his scummy actions off as him being a troll puts town in the same danger as accepting scummy actions are purely newb-town.

[acryon]

I don't think it's that ridiculous to request more reasoning for your vote on Wisdom outside of:

Anyway

VOTE: Wisdom

1287 is absolute balls and I'm not explaining why

If you are voting someone, then stand by it. Don't act like you have no reason to explain yourself. And you don't even have to explain why 1287 was bad, but at least give a better reason than that. One post does not a scum make.

[acryon]

I still can't shake the feeling that Wisdom is just town playing badly, but it would be stupid to just go off of feelings, and I agree that a discussion of him would be really good for at least clearing the air either way. Doing another read-through and I'll present what I find on him.

[acryon]

Sorry for the wall in advance.

Splitting this up into a few sections to keep it organized/focused on things I think are notable.

Early Game/Wgeurts Questioning

-39 was basically just a re-wording of my initial questioning of Victor’s question. I didn’t really think much of it at the time, but now it seems like may have been trying to gain some town-cred by calling out Victor even though I already did that. It looks like it worked because in 46 Mathdino seems to give him some of that cred.
-64 we see Wisdom seconding a question from wgeurts about why I thought the vote on him may be justified. I thought it was painfully obvious to everyone but wgeurts why people might be suspecting him given his erratic play. This made sense coming from someone who is new, but looking at it from Wisdom now seems fabricated. I think he should have known better.
-In 103, he questions wgeurts on unvoting him. This is one of those things that I think isn’t inherently scummy, but if you are looking at it being done by potential scum, it looks really scummy.
-108 is another example of this I think. He questions TTH this time about not engaging him directly. He is very proactive in his defense.
-110 and 114 are more of the same. Now that I’m reading through it again, all of these types of posts are really rubbing me the wrong way. I’m still don’t know that they point to him being scum, but they do help prop up a scum-case on him I think.
-In 188, he calls for wgeurts to stop the mason-talk, which is pro-town, but he does so after Mathdino already calls it out, so it’s hard to give him real town-points for it.
-299 he begins to go after SW for defending him. I’m all for looking into those appearing to WK you as scum, but the way he is going about it does seem a little too aggressive to be genuine.

Push on SW

-I actually agreed with the push on SW, as I joined in as well. If Wisdom is scum, there is still a chance, I think, that this was a bus. It did feel quite genuine, but I don’t want to rule it out just because it felt good.
-346 pings as he says he will self-vote over a NL. This is not town-motivated. Lynching a random person is better than a NL, but if you are town, then lynching what is a confirmed town to you is not better than a NL.

Miscellaneous

-Looking at this vote-count, I think there is a

very

good chance that there was some bussing going on:
Wisdom (4) - TellTaleHeart, wgeurts, SilverWolf, Newbie
wgeurts (4) - VictorDeAngelo, blindmewithscience, Wisdom, Mathdino
VictorDeAngelo (1) - acryon
acryon (1) – Malakittens
I’m not going to speculate pre-flip, but I wanted to make a note for future reference if Wisdom does end up being the lynch and flips scum.
-In the VC in 400, I don’t know how likely it is that 2+ scum would be on the wgeurts wagon at that point in time. I’m certainly not saying it’s impossible, but my initial thought on it is that this gives Wisdom some town-points.

Mala/Mid-game

-In 354, I made a far-fetched (and I admitted it as such) post about a potential Mala coaching wgeurts situation. I think most people recognized this as some wild speculation (as it was), but Wisdom jumped on it in 355.
-Then in 404, he sort of begins to run with it by questioning Mala on her reads, although he hadn’t really engaged her much at all before now.
-In 590/593 he votes and pushes for more info from Mala. I actually liked this, because Mala had been pretty weak with her reasoning.
-In 610 Wisdom mentions masons maybe voting each other to muddy the waters, and this doesn’t really make any sense at all. Town don’t vote players who are confirmed town to them; they either vote scum or vote to pressure those they are unsure about. Very weird comment to make, especially from someone with a good amount of experience.
-614 he gets weirdly defensive toward TTH and says he is “starting to consider [him avoiding interaction with him] a scum tactic.” This just reads really awkwardly.
-666 he again is asking for people to explain town-reads on him. All of this focus on explanations for town-reading him seem to indicate a greater desire to clear himself to town than to actually find scum. It isn’t scummy to be concerned about what people think of you, but the degree to which he has focused on it is suspect.

Late-game

-696 and [/post]740[/post] do read like scum trying to protect their buddy. The soft-defense definitely pings a bit.
-752 and 755 do venture into hard-defending territory, but it is quickly backed off in 760 where he concedes that Victor did some weird things.
-I agreed with a lot of his pushing on Constantine, and still do.
-His post in 786 pings. He asks both myself and Mathdino, knowing that we shared similar views on SW in the past, so it seems like he could be trying to keep us strung along behind him.
-1084 is super weird. “The remaining scum is mala and most likely acryon”. What?? He had never even really mentioned me before that point and now I am most likely scum?
-1099 is just so weak. He says I am scum simply due to PoE, but could also be N_M or BMWS. This is just so confusing. His reasoning for thinking any of me/MMWS/N_M is nonexistent.

The fact that I have agreed with more than one of the wagons he was pushing makes me obviously reluctant to push him over someone I have completely disagreed with(Constantine), but it does appear that there is a very good chance he is scum. I think it is an absolute certainty that one of Wisdom/Riddleton/Constantine is scum, and very probably that 2 are scum.

VOTE: Wisdom

[acryon]

@acryon
I've only read your first paragraph, but I can already see that your case is a bunch of confbias.

It definitely has a decent bit of confbias, as do most cases, and I mentioned that a number of the pieces don't point to you as scum on their own, but rather help prop up the pieces that do point to you as scum.

[acryon]

-299 he begins to go after SW for defending him. I’m all for looking into those appearing to WK you as scum, but the way he is going about it does seem a little too aggressive to be genuine.

Since when aggression is scummy? You're trying hard to find my actions scummy and it just looks silly.

Nothing is an absolute here. Aggression is not scummy. But

your

aggression toward multiple players who were town-reading you is. I already said there is nothing wrong with trying to out people who are WKing, but it seems that one of your primary objectives is making sure everyone knows why people are town-reading you.

[acryon]

-In 610 Wisdom mentions masons maybe voting each other to muddy the waters, and this doesn’t really make any sense at all. Town don’t vote players who are confirmed town to them; they either vote scum or vote to pressure those they are unsure about. Very weird comment to make, especially from someone with a good amount of experience.

More wrong. Masons have in mind that scum are looking for them. If they are smart, they'll try to fool scum into making false connections and muddying the waters. As such, voting each other is not that unlikely as you seem to present it.

I disagree with this and your point about no-lynches. It goes more like this if you are town and are in danger of being lynched: lynch probable scum > lynch anyone > no-lynch and fight tomorrow to convince people you are not scum > lynch you, a confirmed(to you) town.

As for the masons argument, it is just wrong and I don't agree with it. Doing that may make it harder for the scum to find the masons, but it also makes it harder for the town to find scum, and the latter is much more important than the former.

[acryon]

In the interest of not being purely blood-thirsty and mindless, 1491 pings town, but it could just be me trusting the emotion behind it too much.

[acryon]

No, I just dislike being townread because scum buddy me all of the time. Therefore when someone states a townread on me, I want to know the exact reasons.

Can you point me to games where you have shown a similar focus on individuals that are town-reading you where you were town?

[acryon]

Doing that may make it harder for the scum to find the masons, but it also makes it harder for the town to find scum, and the latter is much more important than the former.

How? Do townies scumhunt based on who they think is a mason? That's plain silly.

What? No, but they scumhunt based on what other people are saying as well. If mason A votes for mason B, then that might convince townie A to look at mason B as scummy because of their reasons for being voted by A or even suspect A for their lack of reasons on B.

[acryon]

And they certainly try to avoid scumhunting those they may think are masons.

[acryon]

No, I just dislike being townread because scum buddy me all of the time. Therefore when someone states a townread on me, I want to know the exact reasons.

Can you point me to games where you have shown a similar focus on individuals that are town-reading you where you were town?

Any game you look at, that's how I react to being townread
I may grab specifics later, but I don't see the point.

The point is that I find it somewhat hard to believe that the vigor with which you were requesting explanations for those town-reading you would come from town. Specific games pointing to you doing the same elsewhere would certainly help me fight that disbelief.

[acryon]

Pretty sure by now that Wisdom knows he'll get lynched and is drawing the discussion out for the benefit of the last scum member. No daytalk, right?

Nope.

Mafia Goon
Welcome: You are a Member of the mafia, your team is compiled of [Retracted]. The three of you have infiltrated the town and want to take over.

Factional communication: During the night phase you may talk with your partners here [Retracted].
Factional kill: Each night phase, one of you or your partners may perform the factional kill.
Win condition:
You win when all members of the town have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

[acryon]

I didn't realize it was L-1. I'm not interested in a quick-hammer like last time, so I'm going to UNVOTE: for now.

[acryon]

-1084 is super weird. “The remaining scum is mala and most likely acryon”. What?? He had never even really mentioned me before that point and now I am most likely scum?

I explained this. Mala was deadset on you being scum on D1 and suddenly she forgot all about that D2. It pinged because I've seen scum doing this lots of times, conveniently forgetting about the prior scumreads on their partners. Plus I was really unsure on you at the time so you being the third scum looked likely.

Yeah, but it definitely felt very odd anyway. Putting me as the third scum based on a small associative tell pre-flip rather than on someone else based on their scummy actions still seems wrong.

[acryon]

1529 from Wisdom is actually making a lot of sense to me, which confuses me even more because so much of his other statements and actions don't make any sense to me at all.

I'm hoping some of the others can come in and look at this with a fresh perspective. I still think Wisdom is probably scum, but I think getting the others to comment is incredibly important right now.

[acryon]

What statements/actions don't make sense to you that I haven't responded to?

It's the ones that you have responded to that didn't make sense to me and I already addressed that. Your overemphasis on those townreading you still doesn't make sense to me as town. Your idea that masons want to muddy the waters still doesn't make sense to me as town. Your comment about the self-lynch still doesn't make sense to me as town.

[acryon]

If it's a VT drawing the NK, great, no problem.

Scum faking a mason would be dumb/unnecessary since all it takes to draw out another mason is a hardclaim.

Maybe she's faking a VT, sure.

But at the same time.
Her entire ISO.
It

reeks

of behaviour A.
I don't know how you could possibly think she's scum faking a VT faking a mason.

Agreed. Wisdom-add the wack case on Mala as not making sense to me as town.

[acryon]

Agreed. Wisdom-add the wack case on Mala as not making sense to me as town.

Mala shouldn't have had a case or a vote on her in the first place.

I agree, which I pointed out in my overview of Wisdom. I made an off-handed comment about a possible, but

very unlikely

coaching of Mala to wgeurts, and Wisdom jumped on it. My goal was certainly never for anyone to vote her on it, more something to look at in the chance that a wgeurts lynch somehow went through and he flipped scum.

[acryon]

Well I found it likely. I wasn't feeling good about Mala so it was time to start scrutinizing her anyway. But no, it has to be scum motivated

Again, everything is in context. When someone does something that tends to be somewhat scummy once, probably not a big deal, but when it happens multiple times is when it becomes something more.

[acryon]

Yeah, I still think we need a fresh perspective in here.

Paging Mala, BMWS, Riddleton, Newbie, Wgeurts

[acryon]

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

I always wake up to way more than I expected to.

Thoughts
-Wgeurts, what are you talking about? The masons are all confirmed; if any of them weren't actually masons, the others would out them and scum would hang, simple as that.
-Same with Mathdino, I also don't think it was painfully obvious who the masons were. I thought Mala hard-defending N_M was a little weird, but I also thought it was just her getting defensive because she thought we were attacking someone for being busy/having IRL stuff going on.
-If Wisdom flips scum here, this game gets incredibly easy.
-Whether he flips town or scum, I still think there is a good chance one of Riddleton/Constantine is scum, probably the latter.
-Wgeurts is obviously town, but playing absolutely terrible. FFS just read the thread man and you will stop misinterpreting what people are saying.
-I was hoping I would come back to us being able to get some more info out of Wisdom given that both Mathdino and myself unvoted, but somehow there was still a hammer

[acryon]

@Mathdino:

I wrote up a response to you before the end of the day and went to submit and the thread was locked ><

So here are my thoughts now re:

acryon, can you look over my thoughts on Constantine, Riddleton, BMWS, and Newbie, assuming Wisdom is town? In essence:

- Constantine seems most likely scum.
- If it's Riddleton, partner is prob Newbie.
- BMWS cannot have had Newbie as a partner as she would've explained what happened.
- Gonna need input on Constantine/BMWS and Riddleton/BMWS.

-Agree.
-Agree.
-I wasn't sure exactly what you were referring to with this?
-I think Constantine/BMWS is far more likely than Riddleton/BMWS, although I don't think the latter is impossible. I would be shocked if Constantine wasn't scum.

Also poor Cheetory

[acryon]

Constantine/BMWS is far more likely than Riddleton/BMWS

the fuck?

I'm guessing you disagree. Use your words.

[acryon]

There aren't 4 scum? lol.

This was my response to him pre-flip. I already said that, I just wanted to get it out there since I got cut off by the lock before.

[acryon]

ty acryon so helpful
town mvp
let's lynch the remaining

one

TWO scum

Jk. But seriously, I kind of started today expecting you'd go for a speedlynch on Constantine and I just wouldn't reocmmend that.

BMWS cannot have been partners with Wisdom or Newbie because he was all confused about what happened when TTH thought Wisdom was a mason. If he was scum with either Wisdom or Newbie, he would've just asked in the scum thread.

I know, not exactly insightful, and particularly irrelevant now; I just didn't want to leave a request un-answered.

I still think Constantine is most likely the last scum, but we could mis-lynch more than once and still win. It's almost an auto-win at this point.

I would prefer to talk a little more to be honest, but maybe it's better to not let scum muck up the water.

[acryon]

BMWS cannot have been partners with Wisdom or Newbie because he was all confused about what happened when TTH thought Wisdom was a mason. If he was scum with either Wisdom or Newbie, he would've just asked in the scum thread.

I don't feel comfortable writing BMWS off as town. We already established there is no daytalk, so he couldn't have asked it during the day. And it's also completely possible for scum to feign confusion in that way to look innocent.

[acryon]

I'm sort of with bork on this. Even if Riddleton flips town, having him out of the way will make it significantly easier to actually see who the last one is. The less we give scum to work off of today, the better.

[acryon]

Almost forgot.

VOTE: Riddleton

[acryon]

Can you guys give me second opinions about bmws interactions woth mala in twilight d1?

Like I just don't see that blood in the water reaction from a buddy of quickhammered scum

acryon, your thoughts on this?

Eh, I've seen it both as town and scum, so it's entirely null to me. Twilight is also a great opportunity to gain town-cred exactly how BMWS did. Commenting after the fact almost always ends up making you look back, but you can gain serious town-points by appearing upset at a quick-lynch. Interestingly enough, the flip ends up being mostly irrelevant in how people view the emotional response there.

[acryon]

Also I'm sorry if people are still butthurt that I outed the team but I'm not certain we'd have gotten the Wisdom lynch without it.

I actually agreed with the outing of the team there. Things were getting incredibly mucky, especially since more than one person thought they knew the mason-team and were wrong, which is actively bad for town as they put their trust in someone who is scum.

[acryon]

*raises hand*
I thought I knew the mason team and I was right

I know, you were one of the perceptive ones. I was not, neither were Newbie and (I think) wgeurts.

[acryon]

Edit: If Constantine and Riddleton are both not town, I'll self vote and leave LyLo up to wgeurts, Newbie, BMWS, and acryon, minus whoever dies. Nothing is really confirming me as town right now and I don't think I should be alive at LyLo.

Something tells me we won't get to that point, but if we get close, we will re-evaluate to see who is the biggest liability at that time. Hopefully not you, because I think having someone that's very active and analytically-minded is really important for convincing town in LyLo.

[acryon]

I do want to hear from Constantine / Riddleton - at least one of them is town.

With luck, Riddleton will still be advocating for his own policy lynch. If he's not, then we need to speedlynch him because he's a liar and we have room for mislynches.

I don't really want to hear much from Constantine other than "I was wrong" and "Argumem de obicular doesn't exist".

I am hoping, specifically, for the latter.

[acryon]

I'm going to lay back a bit and see what transpires. My observation is probably more pro-town than my interaction would be right now, since my alignment isn't in question.

Agreed. There is no reason for us to over-complicate things when we are so close to winning. Especially since we have room for error, it makes a lot more sense to play it safe for right now.

[acryon]

I'm a little worried about this post.

Dude was defending wisdom all game then as soon as I spilled it and Mathdino jumped on, it's case time

Hmm, I don't know that I was defending him really, I just didn't like a lot of the arguments against him, especially earlier on, and specifically SW's. I was never town-reading Wisdom as far as I remember. He was a really firm null, because some of his comments were enough to keep me from a town-read, but the cases were bad enough to keep me from a scum-read. During the Mala-Wisdom battle, I thought it looked very strongly like TvT.

Regarding being influenced by your thought of him as scum, I

strongly

value replace-in reads, as there is a lot to gain from looking at things from a fresh perspective. After hearing what you had to say, I decided to try and do the same, and I came to the same conclusion as you. Even at the end, I still wasn't incredibly confident he was scum, and my vote wasn't even a part of the lynch.

[acryon]

Me too. It makes no sense to me to kill N_M/cheetory in that spot, which is why I think it's usually best to not put much stock in NK discussion, because it's often done just to confuse the town.

[acryon]

I would like to say that I always have a firm grasp and who is who and what is what in games, but I don't, especially with more experienced online players. It was hard to read both Victor and Wisdom to me this game. Victor was acting quite different from the game I played with him where he was scum, and Wisdom was making both cases I agreed with and those that I didn't. It's usually a lot easier to get a good read on someone if they seem really right or really wrong, but those in the middle I almost always defend, because someone needs to play devil's advocate. When the game is less lopsided than it is now, heavily questioning our cases and lynches is a lot more important.

[acryon]

Regarding the suspicion on me, I would much rather not be left in the grey. So I am 100% for clearing me tomorrow so we don't make LyLo harder than it needs to be if we somehow get there.

[acryon]

but those in the middle I almost always defend, because someone needs to play devil's advocate.

That's fair. I am just a bit wary when you're doing that until it looks like Wisdom's house of cards is about to come crashing down, then you post about him and just about everything you talk about points to him being scum.

I have no reason to argue that. It's usually safe to be suspicious of those that jump on the middle of a wagon, contrary to what Constantine might advocate.

[acryon]

I am not advocating a pre-lylo lynch of myself at all. I said we should

clear

me, not kill me!

[acryon]

So if suspicion of me is clouding the picture of who is actually scum, I want to clear it just like I do suspicion on anyone I think is town.

[acryon]

Ahhh, no not at all. That may be my fault. I just meant clear through discussion/dissection.

[acryon]

That's true, but I also think the benefit of the knowledge of Riddleton's alignment may outweigh the benefit of having both conf-town alive.

[acryon]

And that's sort of what I mean. I think there is close to 100% chance that one of Riddleton/Constantine is the final scum. I think we get far more info from a Riddleton flip, however.

[acryon]

I'm definitely leaning town on bork, but I'm not willing to bet on it.

[acryon]

I definitely did haha, you are DEFINITELY town.

[acryon]

Edit: Completely agree on BMWS. His slot's been reading town all game, none of his actions make sense under scum standpoint, and I still think his asking questions about TTH and Newbie confirms him 99%.

I'm not getting the same vibes here. I can understand what you're saying, but I do disagree about giving him town-points for the question scenario.

[acryon]

So this is basically 3 guys dicking around until BMWS or Mala steps in to hammer, or until Constantine steps in and derails the whole thread.

acryon, dude, for a sec I thought your avatar said "People SHOULD be deleted" and I was like "MIKAMI CONFIRMED TOWN FOR LYNCHING L"

Pretty much. As for the avatar comment, maybe they

should

be deleted.

But if we don't: the point is please use flips to readjust your conception of the gamestate, and don't be afraid to assume all your previous reads are shit.

This. This. This.

The only thing that is going to cause us to lose is tunnel-vision.

[acryon]

Ugh, definitely not what I was expecting to come back to. Obviously going over things again and I'll have a case up in a little bit.

[acryon]

I thought Constantine was for sure the last scum, so obviously I needed to re-evaluate and establish a new idea of who the last scum is.

BMWS

This one is certainly a bit tough, because of BMWS general absence in the early part of day 1.
-His general recap post in 163 includes these lines: “Wgeurts voted Wisdom

supposedly

to get us out of RVS. Now, he unvoted after receiving some pressure, but his

weird

behavior sparked lots of debate” and “Also, VictorDeAngelo

appeared

to question Mathdino's desire for a meta.” The main things I want to point out here are the bolded words. Now, I do think BMWS has been a lot more subtle about the way he has played this scum-game, and I think here is an example. He is attempting to remain objective, but his use of ‘supposedly’ and ‘weird’ cast doubt on Wgeurts in the first part, and his use of ‘appeared’ in the second seems to try and say that maybe Victor didn’t do that. He didn’t

appear

to question his desire for a meta, he questioned his desire for a meta.
-165 from Wisdom then prods for more clear statements from BMWS.
-213 now has Victor disliking BMWS’s post as “sitting back.” Says he wishes he had a second vote for BMWS. He conveniently doesn’t, so BMWS remains without any real pressure from Victor.
-BMWS posts again in 225, but only addresses and votes wguerts, Victor’s primary suspect.
-241 actually looks pretty town, but given it came from a question from Victor, I think that’s exactly what they were going for.
-In 310 BMWS comes and comments on SW-scum after Victor and Wisdom made note of it. This is now the second time BMWS “joined” a wagon after Victor/Wisdom voted/made comments about it. The momentum remained with the wgeurts wagon at this time, but this is clearly an example of the three of them laying a foundation for a future lynch or alternate lynch in case wgeurts doesn’t pan out.
-325 has BMWS addressing Wisdom re: the Wgeurts wagon. The way he addresses him is definitely a little odd. Normally, someone would follow something like “You seem wholeheartedly convinced in wgeurts' scumminess” with “so why exactly is that? You need to give us something better than that”, as opposed to “I'd say wait until he posts again with content that can help us make a decision”. I would say what strikes me as off here is that he doesn’t use this opportunity to scum-hunt Wisdom, but instead takes this weird passive approach.
-In 356 Victor says “Ok, I can totally see blindmewithscience as scum with Wgeurtes after this post. If Wgeurtes flips scum then he should be tomorrows flip.” What is convenient about this post is that he is simultaneously calling bussing and exonerating BMWS, knowing that a wgeurts flip would turn town.
-445 sees BMWS doing a somewhat similar thing, saying that the Wisdom wagon has some merit, but the wgeurts one is much better. This is a common scum-tell.
-685 shows that BMWS doesn’t know who the mason-team is. I didn’t know either, but I didn’t ask questions because I know it is bad for town. BMWS did ask, and I think was hoping for someone to say something that would make it clear so the scum-team knows for sure.
-I’ve already commented on his twilight comments, but in short I don’t think they are anything more than null. Twilight is an excellent time to comment, because you are able to look town criticizing the hammer, which is obviously something he couldn’t do if he waited until after the flip.
-Not much interaction for a long time after this, with only posts from Wisdom. Wisdom comments in 1102 that the twilight comments from BMWS aren’t bad, and that he is unlikely to be scum(given Mala-scum, which Wisdom was pushing).
-BMWS is back in 1182, saying he doesn’t see the Wisdom scum, but also questioning Wisdom on his dislike of the Victor lynch.
-Lastly, Wisdom leaves us with the thought that Constantine and BMWS are scum. I would be very surprised if one of those weren’t true, and given Constantine-town, BMWS is scum.

VOTE: Blindmewithscience

[acryon]

I started to work on my Mathdino read to see if I could find anything re: Wisdom/Victor, but it was terrible, so I have chosen to exclude it. The only way to make that case worth something would be with confbias and some great suspension of disbelief, and I think that would be bad for town.

I still don't feel completely comfortable clearing Newbie, because if somehow we don't win following a potential BMWS flip, it comes down to Me/Mathdino/Newbie. In that case, I feel like it has to be Newbie. Mathdino is just not scum. I'm not dumb enough to get to LyLo and not still consider it a possibility, but at this point, given BMWS-town (very unlikely), I think Newbie is far more likely to be scum than Mathdino.

[acryon]

If I have one problem with Mathdino is that he pushed town literally all game until my Wisdom thing.

That's true, but unfortunately pushing town alone isn't a scum-tell, and you obviously know that. I've definitely been involved in only town-lynches the first few days of a game, this one included. Even when your reasoning is sound(which I think his has been and I've agreed with mostly), sometimes you are just wrong.

[acryon]

But, as I said before, part of this theme is clearly understanding that you can be wrong, and I'll admit there is a possibility that I am about Mathdino, and if I am, truly GG.

[acryon]

I completely understand your gut feeling there, and I was honestly torn on it initially, but to me it was ultimately a null/lean scum-motivation. I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong, but I also know sometimes gut feelings are wrong.

[acryon]

@Mod

: Is the countdown in 1817 the right one? Just double-checking.

To that end, we have lots of time to discuss, so as long as we don't rush into anything, I think we will get there.

[acryon]

but to me it was ultimately a null/lean scum-motivation.

You think that particular interaction with Mala leans scum? Why

It's not that I necessarily think it leans scum on its own or very strongly. More-so that I think it more leans-scum to me than leans-town if that makes sense. I think it is mostly a null, but if the choices are between: (A) Town genuinely annoyed/curious about why the quickhammer and (B) Scum using twilight to feign townie frustration, then in the case of BMWS, I choose (B).

[acryon]

Can you explain that in a way that isn't a total nonanswer?

Not sure why I have to explain why I think it was ultimately a null? As I said before and in my most recent write-up, I think it is ultimately a null, but to those that think it was a town-tell, I would argue that it was more of a scum-tell than a town-tell. You had a gut-feeling that it was town, and I don't share that gut-feeling.

P.edit: I have said more than once that it was a null more than anything, but I disagree with the idea that it was a town-tell.

[acryon]

It's impossible to prove intent without a flip, so we are left to our guts in determining whether the particular action was by scum or town. You think the latter; I feel the former. It is certainly not anywhere close to a linchpin of my case, or even something that I am calling out as actually scummy, but given your desire to reject my statement that it is a null and pick a side, I've picked scum.

[acryon]

Well you disagree with my assertion that it is town with the town motivation I have attributed to it and are being really vague in telling me how I'm wrong or how its null or how it actually leans scum or whatever argument you seem to be trying to make.

You are trying to get me to explain to you how your gut-read is wrong? How can I explain how a premise based on gut is wrong other than to explain that a gut-feeling is not a valid argument?

So it doesn't look like bmws was genuinely trying to read mala there? Why is it "more of a scum tell than a town tell"

No, I don't think he was trying to read mala there. I think he was trying to look like he was reading mala there, but that is my gut-feeling. You're asking me to explain why my gut-feeling disagrees with your gut-feeling, and I can't explain that to you.

I'm honestly very confused at what you are confused about here.

I thought it was ultimately a null. You thought it was town. I said I thought there was a bigger chance it was scum than town. You asked why I thought it was scum. I explained that I didn't really think it was scum, but that I thought there was a greater chance of it being scum than town. Why? Because my gut tells me there was a greater chance that it was him trying to look town and using twilight as an opportunity to do so than him actually questioning Mala as town.

Long-story-short: Null, but given Scum and Town as only options, Scum.

[acryon]

So it doesn't look like bmws was genuinely trying to read mala there?

To expound on that, the only way I really see that being scummy from BMWS is if he were scum trying to fake that exact interaction so that I'd townread him for it.

Which is something he would have no idea I'd do at that point.

The alternative is that he was actually really worried about Mala after that hammer, which did not involve hedging on Vic's alignment. That makes this more about Mala than Vic, and the only reason that would be the case was him trying to figure Mala out.

I still think the latter is more probably. And it doesn't exactly take a genius to realize that being the first-responder to something like a quick-hammer and leading the questioning can get you town-cred.

[acryon]

Sorry, the former.

[acryon]

I thought it was ultimately a null. You thought it was town. I said I thought there was a bigger chance it was scum than town. You asked why I thought it was scum. I explained that I didn't really think it was scum, but that I thought there was a greater chance of it being scum than town. Why? Because my gut tells me there was a greater chance that it was him trying to look town and using twilight as an opportunity to do so than him actually questioning Mala as town.

Long-story-short: Null, but given Scum and Town as only options, Scum.

Dude

I don't give a shit why something is town as long as you can adequately explain why that is.
I don't give a shit why something is null as long as you can adequately explain why that is.
I don't give a shit why something is scummy as long as you can adequately explain why that is.

Yes, but the problem is this isn't really something that can be worked through unless there are other interactions that point to it being one way or the other, and maybe that's my fault for engaging on an issue that didn't have a real resolve. Without other pieces to point it in a certain direction, we are left with essentially gut-reads based on experience that tell us why that specific interaction felt town or scum.

[acryon]

Maybe it's best to move on from this point. What are the other interactions that point you to BMWS-town?

[acryon]

My issue is that you had that slot leaning town yesterday, and once things flip in a way that goes against your reads, you immediately readjust them without a thought process that I can really see into, with a good heap of what seems to me like confirmation bias while you do it.

Well my reads obviously

had

to change dramatically. When my primary (and only) scum-read was on someone who flips town, there is bound to be some drastic changes somewhere. I had Bmws leaning town, I had Newbie as probably town, I had you as conftown, I had Mathdino as town. One of those

had

to switch to a scum-read.

[acryon]

Well my reads obviously had to change dramatically. When my primary (and only) scum-read was on someone who flips town, there is bound to be some drastic changes somewhere. I had Bmws leaning town, I had Newbie as probably town, I had you as conftown, I had Mathdino as town. One of those had to switch to a scum-read.

That's fine but you didn't say PoE, you decided he was scum for a number of reasons independently of everyone else.

Realizing there are only 4 people in the game that could be scum and you town-read all of them, so going back over each and determining one of them looks to be scummy based on their actions and the fact that one of them has to be scum isn't strictly PoE. You're totally misrepresenting here and I'm not sure what case on anyone I could present without you making the same argument. It's a stupid argument because it applies to every case I could make simply because I'm in a bad position reads-wise. Someone was going from a town-read to a scum-read because one of those "townies" was scum. It's just the nature of where my reads were at and where they (clearly) failed. That's just the facts of this game, so no progression is going to seem natural because I didn't think any of them were likely to be scum before, but I have to now.

[acryon]

That's fair. Like I said, we have plenty of time, so I am more than happy to be proved wrong if we can find someone better, because I'm not exactly extremely confident given I mostly town-read everyone before today.

Re: Mathdino and Newbie. Any initial impressions before I take a look or things you think I should take an extra hard look at?

[acryon]

Here is what I have on Newbie:

Day 1
-Claimed Newbie was suspicious of VDA in 137, but that his responses satisfied Newbie
-In 48, wgeurts unvoted and Newbie called him out for it. Then in 307, Newbie questions Wisdom for calling out wgeurts second unvote and turn-around, and this time Wisdom was scummy for calling it out? Newbie votes him here, making the 4th vote on the wagon, along with Finn who mentioned he thought Wisdom was scummy.
-In 389, Newbie says “Also, I assure you, if Wisdom does in fact flip mafia, then I'm not bussing him. I find it odd that you said that. It kind of puts me in a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of situation (if Wisdom flips town then I'm highly suspected as a mafia member pushing a town lynch, if Wisdom flips scum then I'm highly suspected for bussing him)”. Now this post is the killer for me. I can’t see this statement coming from anything but town or newb-scum, and I’m not sure that I’m ready to accept the latter.
-In 681, this could very easily be town genuinely surprised at the realization that Wisdom may be a mason or scum pushing the perceived, but not explicitly stated notion that Wisdom is a mason.
-I am actually quite skeptical of the way Newbie jumped onto the Victor wagon. He was mentioned in 137 by Newbie saying that his responses were satisfying. The next time he was mentioned by Newbie was 702, where his questioning of Mathdino is noted as being odd, but making good points, followed by a question to VDA on why it took so long to answer people’s questions on Wgeurts. In 825, once VDA is at L-3, Newbie expresses a willingness to lynch either VDA or Riddleton, and then votes Victor in 829. 897 shows Newbie driving the nail in on the VDA wagon. I would be wary of calling this genuine given the lynch was all but certain at that point.
-Mala seemed to express that she thought Newbie was scum with Victor, presumable due to the above progression.

Day 2
-Starts out of the gate with a vote on Wisdom. What I find especially interesting is that it is coupled with another comment about how ridiculous the bussing accusations are.
-In 1023 Newbie says the hammer from Mala seemed more like bussing than what Newbie did, which is (1) ridiculous, and (2) quickly ignored in 1028 just because Newbie agrees with the Wisdom vote.
-The interaction with Wisdom in 1147 honestly reads like TvS, but the concession in 1150 does the opposite, unvoting Wisdom and moving to hear from me.
-In 1267 the vote comes back on Wisdom, and I asked in 1268 about what in my posts made her put it back because Newbie initially removed it to hear from me. The answer was that “Straightforwardly, [Newbie] like[d] this post.” In my post, I asserted that Wisdom was most likely misguided town and that the Mala/Wisdom fight was almost definitely TvT. If Newbie liked the post, then why would the vote move back to Wisdom based on that conclusion of mine? Then, after wguerts posts, the vote is removed once again.
-Eventually it comes back in 1605 from what seems like a semi-natural progression.

I’m honestly quite torn on Newbie. The interaction with VDA I would say looking back was lean-scum, and the interaction with Wisdom is just incredibly hard to read because it is so back and forth. I think those town-reading Newbie for the mason-Wisdom thing are kind of crazy. I think the 389 post seems to be far more indicative of town than the mason-thing. I agree that it is a difficult sell to say that Newbie appeared to be in the mindset of faking the interaction with Wisdom re: masons, but at the same time, it's not impossible. I think overall that interaction does give Newbie some town-points, but certainly not enough for exoneration.

[acryon]

Forgot to ask: have you played with Cheetory before?

I played with Cheetory one time and he was quick-hammered on page 4 of the game before I even got a chance to read it, so I basically haven't played with him.

[acryon]

Whoops, fell asleep while looking through acryon's ISO

I'm not

that

boring

[acryon]

Here is what I have on Newbie:
If Newbie liked the post, then why would the vote move back to Wisdom based on that conclusion of mine? Then, after wguerts posts, the vote is removed once again.

Just because I didn't agree with some things in the post doesn't mean I didn't like it.

Yeash, but this is what I asked you:

Also, going back to

Vote: Wisdom

You indicated that you unvoted to hear what I had to say. I assume you have some comments on what you did/didn't like about what I had to say for the vote to come back?

Obviously I was asking you what you disagreed with re: Wisdom, because that was the whole point of your unvote. Why would you say you liked it if you (clearly) disagreed with my Wisdom conclusion when it was the primary thing you were concerned about at the time?

Re: Mathdino as town.
In short, he is scum-hunting. His questions aren't empty; they are directed toward finding the scum. Him and I both unfortunately have come to a number of the same wrong conclusions, but it seems pretty clear that he is genuinely looking for scum. While wall-posts and high posting activity are certainly not alignment-indicative, his content is on-point. I don't see fallacies in his arguments; I don't see witch-hunting; I don't see misrepresentation. He has been thinking critically about the game, and he gives reasons for all of his reads and for the direction he is going. If Mathdino were scum, I doubt all of the above would apply to him. So if he is scum, he is doing a very good job, although I doubt he is.

Also,
UNVOTE:

[acryon]

mathdino is scum?

Because I agree that it's best to not leave BMWS at L-1.

[acryon]

There's few things worse than seeing a solid case on someone that you have been town-reading all game. I feel like Mathdino and I came to a lot of the same conclusions on various players and situations, which makes it even worse.

In 831 Constantine points out that Wisdom was making the same conclusion as Mathdino in 830. Do you think Mathdino would sheep his scumbuddy in that spot?

[acryon]

Yeah, looking into that interaction and what followed, this post from Mathdino is causing me some trouble:

Look guys, it really doesn't look like a Victor or Constantine lynch is happening. Everyone who's scumreading Victor is already voting him, and the same happened with Constantine.

Let's switch to Riddleton before the deadline; we have enough support from both wagons.
Particularly paging

Newbie, Not_Mafia, Constantine, acryon, BMWS

.

Looking at it now, it looks a whole lot like it could be from scum. Mentioning that a Victor/Constantine lynch can't happen (which wasn't true since it obviously got there), so discourages people from pursuing either. This gets the town off of scum-Victor, but doesn't draw suspicion as a real defense because he mentioned the Constantine wagon not happening as well. Then says "let's switch to Riddleton," and tries to get the town there. I agreed that the VDA wagon was bad and one of Constantine/Riddleton was far more likely, but this little piece is throwing me through a loop.

Not sure whether I actually hope Mathdino is scum or not. I'm leaning towards the latter, but I'm still not sure.

[acryon]

Actually I strongly prefer him as town, because then it means I haven't played this game as terribly as I did. So Mathdino, please come back and hopefully clear some of this stuff up, because this game makes a lot more sense when I'm not questioning your alignment

[acryon]

Not sure whether I actually hope Mathdino is scum or not. I'm leaning towards the latter, but I'm still not sure.

Can you explain what this means?

I think 1933 explains it better, which is why I tried to clarify. I have found myself agreeing with him on almost everything. If he is town, then me and another townie just came to the same wrong conclusions. If he is scum, then I got played.

[acryon]

I've just been reading along, because I think it is better for the sake of the argument to see him answer your questions 1-on-1 without my interjections, which would certainly be somewhat biased due to my long-standing Mathdino town-read. I'll be honest that this conversation has definitely made me feel worse about him. I will also say that I have been in similar situations as Mathdino before and answered questions poorly as town, which could be happening here, but with how confidently he has been playing a lot of this game, that's a little harder to believe.

Bork, I know you said that he is scum, but how confident would you say you are on it at this point, if you had to pick a percentage?

[acryon]

Bork, I know you said that he is scum, but how confident would you say you are on it at this point, if you had to pick a percentage?

I don't know that I want to play that game. Decide for yourself if my arguments have merit, or discuss why you think he's town if you're able to do a hard reset first.

I think your arguments have a lot of merit, and his responses to your arguments didn't exactly help his case. But I don't think it's completely crazy to look to you since you're the only conftown. I know it's kind of a crappy position for you to be in, but with so much uncertainty, it just makes sense to put extra stock in the one certainty we have.

[acryon]

Yeah, I mean Silverwolf never seemed to explicitly state a suspicion of Mathdino, but 347 from him really looks like maybe he should have. I think your case is good, and this conversation between you two has done some serious work to convince me. I do want to point out that I am taking full responsibility for this vote. Bork is already in a position of sort of being stuck with the weight of the town, and I have no interest in pretending he forced me into this decision. This is making me feel really stupid for feeling like I was on the same wave-length with Mathdino most of the game, but this game has already proven how weak my gut can be I guess.

Definitely never thought I would be doing this:
VOTE: Mathdino

[acryon]

acryon. Look at yourself. I bolded the reasoning for your vote.
Explain how this has convinced you and what about my play in the past few pages gives his argument merit. Because from my perspective, I'm being voted for defending the logic that's been shat on.
The fact that you're not even explaining what led you to this decision but you repeated that bork convinced you like 5 times is making me reconsider my Newbie read.

Specifically:
-The wgeurts meta situation is a very weird slip, and I didn't buy your answer to it.
-Post like 1956 are awkwardly emotional compared to the way you've played a lot of this game.
-1928 in general is very on-point.

I don't feel the need to go through and put my thumbs up on everything he has said that I agree with and thumbs down on your responses, as I think the conversation speaks for itself. I have no reason to re-hash good arguments that he has already made. I won't say I'm 100% confident you are scum, but I am more confident in bork's case on you than in any case I have on anyone else. Maybe that's just a cop-out, but as the only confirmed-town, I have good reason to believe his play more than anyone else's, so putting extra weight on his input just makes sense IMO.

[acryon]

I'm also not saying I am ride or die with bork or anything, but I am finding myself trusting his reads more at this point than my own. Which is a little sad, but it's the fact of the matter.

[acryon]

bork, lynch order. After all, it looks like acryon'll be a bit lost without confirmed town's help tomorrow.

Well I'm not helpless, and if I make it to tomorrow then of course I'm on my own, but it just makes sense to pay extra attention to what bork has to say given the gamestate.

Regarding lynch order, I don't think it's necessary to give that out. All that does is give whoever is scum more information to work off of. I'd rather not do that. If they want to work for it then fine, but I'm not going to spell it out for them. The only person it makes sense to get an order from is bork because A) He's the only person we can trust and B) He probably won't be alive tomorrow so scum can't feed on it.

[acryon]

I'm also not saying I am ride or die with bork or anything, but I am finding myself trusting his reads more at this point than my own. Which is a little sad, but it's the fact of the matter.

So what you're telling me.
Is because he's confirmed town.
You trust a different confirmed town more than yourself, who is (presumably) confirmed town?

Yes, because most of my reads have been wrong this game, and I'm mostly at a lost today. So if it's between two confirmed towns, I am going to trust the one who has been right more (which is him).

If you lynch me, 'ride or die' is exactly what you're doing.

That's not true. If you were lynched and flipped town, and then tomorrow I refused to think for myself and simply followed what bork had presented against the living players, that would be the case.

The entirety of 2023 is just showing an inability to think for yourself. So go through my ISO. Go through Newbie's ISO. You already went for BMWS's so screw that. Show me why I'm a better candidate than them just because bork says so.

Also, you guys have yet to point out the contradiction. The conversation very much does not 'speak for itself'.

The entire meta-reasoning on wgeurts was a contradiction. And I did write-ups on both BMWS and Newbie, and Bork's case on you and the subsequent discussion are better evidence than either of my cases IMO.

[acryon]

So not only is that wgeurts like actually unambiguously blatantly rolefishing (which he did not do here, at least at the point you voted him and even after that it was 'you're either masons or scum' and he had masons on the brain because you brought it up)

But all the stuff with wguerts happened early D1 of this game (Mid Oct.) and all the stack the deck stuff happened Nov. +, much less even getting into how you'd have known that wgeurts was scum in that game yet

As such, anything that happened in stack the deck could not have informed anything you did in this game.

So I kinda feel like you're just lying to me now

Gotta go, back tonight.

And I townread [wgeurts] that game because I assumed he was being newbtown going by his meta.

Still feel like this is a scumslip and I wish other people would take their blinders off.

If

1) you townread him that game because you assumed he was newbtown going by his meta
and
2) that game happened

after

this one for all intents and purposes with you reading wgeurts

Then why didn't you treat this game like you

later

treated that one if you were willing to trust his meta there? You had no instance of him flipping scum in the latter game to inform this game. Conversely, you had no reason NOT to be just as suspicious of him in that game as you were in this game if you're just naturally suspicious like that, because he hadn't flipped here. Your retroactive justification doesn't even make any sense for you to believe to be true (even if it weren't already utterly ridiculous).

Your actions suggest that what is actually different between the two games is your alignment and the amount of information available to you. If you

knew

he was town in this game the whole time, and, just as germane, the other game was actually your first attempt to legitimately read him (as your reference to the second game without any hint of being wary about your read in this game would indicate), then your actions in the other game

do

make sense.

They also suggest you're lying about what actually happened in this game. You seriously using the other game as retroactive justification because he happened to flip scum there, a fact you had no idea about at the time since you were town there, in a situation that is markedly different from this one even just going by my 30 second smell test, is

insane

, and I think you screwed up, forgot the timing, and are trying to cover for yourself.

And I didn't think your reasoning cleared you on these, especially the first one.

[acryon]

Nice, you quoted bork.

bork claims that it was bad to vote wgeurts because the correct conclusion was that wgeurts was newbtown.
I say no, that's stupid, voting wgeurts was the right move at the time.
He says that it was a bad conclusion that wgeurts was rolefishing.
I say no, that's stupid, here's a bunch of examples that show wgeurts rolefishes.

I use Stack The Deck to show that bork's wrong and that people DO rolefish, and that it's dumb to be voting me because I made the conclusion that wgeurts was doing so. Stack The Deck did not inform any of my decisions this game. I feel as if my actions this game are justified enough to speak for themselves.

But you didn't prove him wrong, because you are saying that you were voting for him for rolefishing, but you didn't have Stack the Deck to help you realize that he really was rolefishing. You seemed to imply that it

did

inform your decision, and using it after the fact as justification for your previous action is pretty weak, because it wasn't even part of the equation at the time.

And of course I quoted him, because he already explained it and you know what statements of your's were in question. Why would I post your naked quotes when he already went over them? Do you really want me to re-type all of bork's statements that I agree with?

[acryon]

Yes, but Stack the Deck should never have even entered the equation after the fact. All it does is prove that wgeurts is an anomaly and that he likes/appears to rolefish; it doesn't prove that bork was wrong about your initial voting being bad.

[acryon]

There appears to be more than one problem here. Both strawmanning and then false equivalency based on that strawman.

[acryon]

He was the best suspect at the time, and then came the "which one y'all motherfuckers is the mason" which just solidified my vote.

But your reason for voting him was that he was fishing for masons. So did you vote him because he was the best suspect and then later have your vote solidified by his mason-fishing, or did you vote him because he was role-fishing like you said in 162?

[acryon]

This right here appears to be a contradiction. Tell me why it isn't.

[acryon]

That answers part of the the new question I had, but it still doesn't answer how he was mason-fishing.

[acryon]

He wasn't. Because he's town. This brings me back to...

I'm not perfect. Is that what you want?

No, of course not, because nobody is, definitely including myself. Nobody wants you to be perfect, but they want you to be able to explain why you did what you did. You obviously can't prove that you really thought he was mason-fishing, but which posts of his made you think he was?

[acryon]

The reason I thought he was mason-fishing is because I was paranoid, he was already insanely scummy, and I was uncomfortable with being linked with Newbie. 140 is what made me think this.

I can buy that, but I still don't like the Stack the Deck association. Out for the night.

[acryon]

Question: as scum, why would I not vote him after the huge wall of evidence I had on him? Why bring up mason-fishing and use that as a reason instead?

This is just WIFOM, so there's no point in answering it directly. But generally speaking, "mason-fishing" is a way more interesting scum-case than the other stuff he was doing.

I also agree that 2071 sounds super town.

[acryon]

V/LA until Monday as usual. May be able to post before then but most likely not.

[acryon]

Acryon: whenever you get back, please give your thoughts and lynch order.

I've already commented that I don't think giving out a lynch order is good for town.

I also don't feel comfortable just blindly agreeing to lynching someone tomorrow if MD flips town. I do think there is a much greater chance that Newbie is scum than BMWS, but I also don't like the idea of locking myself into something like that, because every flip (MD, although not so much Bork since he is conf), provides information. I'm not going to speculate on what that information is, because I still think MD is likely scum, but I think we are at a point in the game where certain ideas for the future are better left closer to the chest. If scum knows exactly where my head is at, it's a lot easier to gear arguments toward or away from it. If they don't, it's a lot easier for scum to slip up trying to figure that out.

[acryon]

I've already commented that I don't think giving out a lynch order is good for town.

I also don't feel comfortable just blindly agreeing to lynching someone tomorrow if MD flips town. I do think there is a much greater chance that Newbie is scum than BMWS, but I also don't like the idea of locking myself into something like that, because every flip (MD, although not so much Bork since he is conf), provides information. I'm not going to speculate on what that information is, because I still think MD is likely scum, but I think we are at a point in the game where certain ideas for the future are better left closer to the chest. If scum knows exactly where my head is at, it's a lot easier to gear arguments toward or away from it. If they don't, it's a lot easier for scum to slip up trying to figure that out.

This is terrible.

1. We know who's going to be in LyLo tomorrow assuming scum don't get all cheeky and leave bork alive again. No point in not discussing it now.
2. How does my flip give you ANY info? If I'm scum, then you win. If I'm town, then you're in LyLo. Flips give nothing if there's only 1 scum left.
3. What is scum going to do knowing who you want to lynch? What are they seriously going to do? If you notice them

trying

to do anything, then you have your scum.

bork, do the same thing to me that I did to Wisdom at the end of D2. It's the smart way to progress. I'm getting lynched today. That's a given. Now reason with me as if I were town because someone's gonna have to get lynched tomorrow.

1. The point in not discussing it now is that we are trying to find scum today, not tomorrow. See point 3 for more on this.
2. But certainly the fact that you are town changes my current views on Newbie/BMWS. And I'm not going to do hypothetical scum-hunting, because it's a waste of my time and resources. I'd rather get scum today; I don't think that's crazy.
3. I'm sorry but the whole point of the game is scum doing things and town trying to notice them doing it. So saying "If you notice them

trying

to do anything, then you have your scum" like it is a simply thing is a bit ridiculous. And how does the information of who I want to lynch in LyLo

not

give scum huge pieces of information. It certainly affects their NK, as well as the direction of their play tomorrow. I think that divulging that information today helps scum a lot more than it helps town.

[acryon]

oh for the

1. Someone's going to die tomorrow, so if we don't have a plan I'm not going down without a fight.
2. how is it
are you even
So what you're telling me is in order for you to consider the possibility of my being town, both me AND whoever gets shot have to die. You've got to be kidding me. So how are your time and resources best spent now then? Waiting around for the deadline to come and sheeping bork because you can't trust yourself? I'd rather get scum today too, acryon, but that's not going to happen unless you quit your sheeping. If you plan on lynching me today, that's going to happen. So you need to treat me like I'm dead town for the remaining 4 days until the deadline so we can talk about D4.
3. Dude, if they don't kill bork, then bork's gonna be the arbiter and scum give themselves a much lesser chance of winning. And how is the direction of their play going to do anything? 4 townies are better at discussion and scumhunting than 2 townies, and we're far better off deciding LyLo now rather than after 2 people are dead.

You have no idea how hard it was articulating how inane that post is.

We are obviously in great disagreement here and I don't know how that gap is going to be closed. I think you are wrong on this. I will concede that point 1 makes sense from your standpoint, because you won't be around tomorrow for it. So I think you (if someone give some intent to lynch) and if anyone else, Bork would be fine candidates for presenting your reads based on the remaining 3 players, but I still stand by the idea that having information on where the living town's heads are at before it even gets there is bad for us.

[acryon]

How is there

ANY

town motivation in choosing to withhold your reads for tomorrow until after 2 of your audience members die and are rendered unable to respond to it?

Let's just use an example. I give out a hypothetical current lynch order of Mathdino/BMWS/Newbie, Newbie gives one out of Acryon/BMWS/Mathdino, and BMWS gives one out of Newbie/Acryon/Mathdino.

If you are BMWS-scum, you know that you are going to have better luck getting Newbie to lynch me than you are me to lynch Newbie. If you are Newbie-scum, you know you are going to have better luck getting BMWS to lynch me than me to lynch BMWS. How does this

not

help scum know where to direct their efforts?

[acryon]

That's all well and good.

But what changes between now and then other than 2 people dying? Is this just because you don't want to be the guy giving out his reads first? Because everything you just said applies to the beginning of tomorrow, before anyone else talks.

Well that's certainly a part of it, and I also think there is a big difference between scum having days to figure out what they are going to do and how they will do it and doing it mostly on the fly. Scum is also going to act differently tomorrow, and you can obviously read their trigger-happiness based on your reads a lot easier tomorrow than you can today.

[acryon]

You have no idea how much I want to scumread you for this conversation.

I haven't seen statements this game this inane since Constantine and wgeurts's "HEY MAN ARE YOU A MASON!?!?"

So basically what I'm getting is, you're not going to talk to me about the other players for as long as you're voting me, and you're going to keep voting me as long as you're sheeping bork's argument.

For fuck's sake. Do I need to self-hammer?

I'm not sheeping bork indefinitely. I feel comfortable doing that now because his case on you combined with the conversation and his credibility makes his case better than anyone else's. That doesn't mean it's

impossible

for someone else's to be better, but I haven't seen it yet (and doubt I will to be honest).

If I am going to be the one in LyLo between the two of us, I am going to prefer the style distributing/withholding information that makes me most confident in getting scum then if you aren't it. I don't think that that ridiculous. You can think it's wrong, but if I am going to be the one there, I'm going with my gut on how to play this, not your's.

[acryon]

His 'credibility' says jackshit about the quality of his case. Someone being confirmed town does not make them God. And if you mean his scumhunting credibility, hell, he pretty much had the exact same reads as me including the fact that the only person he was correct on was Wisdom.

acryon, how bout you sum up your current reasons for voting me? Because last I checked when it came to that conversation, the only thing you still have an issue with is the fact that I brought STD into the equation (Stack The Deck >.>) along with my 'awkwardly emotional' 1956. Everything else has yet to be explained because you basically point to bork's case and say "that guy's got it".

By not talking to me, you understand that you're writing off a potential confirmed townie's contribution to the discussion of your reads and thoughts.

Of course it doesn't make him God, but it

definitely

helps his credibility. Do I really have to explain to you why I am inclined to trust someone who is conf-town more than someone who has 1 in 3 chance of being scum?

I am not going to tell you over and over why I am voting for you, because you can look at my ISO to see why I agreed with Bork then and what I felt was bad in addition to what he presented.

I still think it's my best play to not let the entirety of my reads loose.

Ughhhh. I am sitting here with my head in my hands because this conversation with you just doesn't make sense if you are scum. This is probably stupid for more than one reason, but, I'm unvoting. I do still trust bork, but until he can sound off on this whole conversation, I can't leave my vote on you.

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

You post too quickly Mathdino

[acryon]

Maybe I just let scum-dino convince me that I had to unvote to prove a point, but at the same time I don't see a reason for you to say all of this stuff as scum. The idea that the only option was to sit and discuss a contingency plan sucked. We have 5 days; it could still be you, but I want to get scum today.

[acryon]

But you misinterpret my intentions. I didn't want you to unvote me, I wanted you to talk to me about the other players and to actually do some analysis yourself.

Well certainly, and that's why I said maybe. But my interpretation of your intentions is based completely on what I believe your alignment to be, so it's only a misinterpretation if you're town.