Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Newbie]

If anything, wouldn't that fact make you

not

vote for SilverWolf, since you aren't afraid of him?

On the contrary good sir, I'm polite enough to wait until Silver's dead in order to eat him.

Fair enough.

This is the first game where I have actually been here at the very start

, so I'm glad I am here to ask the hard-hitting questions right off the bat!

Same.


Hello, everybody. This should be fun.

[Newbie]

Hey Newbie,

I see you played one game when you signed up and got killed pretty quickly and appear to be in two now. How much of a newbie are you actually? Much IRL experience?

I've actually played 10+ games on Onehallyu and Hallyu8 (which is shut down now). I think they're both some of the only forums where day and night phases last about 20-30 minutes, and the game lasts 2-3 IRL days, so I'm more used to things moving

way

more quick.

And yeah, lol. In my first game on mafiascum I replaced in as mafia for someone already halfway lynched. I panicked and kinda just gave up.

[Newbie]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mathdino

Hi Newbie, how do you feel about voting Mathdino with us?

Sorry for the double post, but I didn't see that you had addressed me in this post at first.

Honestly, I know people here do joke votes on the first day, but where I'm from, the time limit is much smaller so we get serious pretty quickly. Therefore, I will not throw out a vote until more people begin to post and things get rolling and then I can start analyzing.

[Newbie]

Honestly, I know people here do joke votes on the first day, but where I'm from, the time limit is much smaller so we get serious pretty quickly. Therefore, I will not throw out a vote until more people begin to post and things get rolling and then I can start analyzing.

Those "joke" votes can get things serious pretty quickly too, don't you think?

I know they can. What I mean by getting seriously very quickly is that we don't really do joke votes at all, lol. We just jump right in.

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

@wgeurts: RVS wagons can be good ways of getting reactions out of people. Why so concerned?

I could link you to the games, if that's what you mean.

[Newbie]

@wgeurts: Yet if everyone did that, nothing would happen, haha. I used to hate RVS but it's important for reaction fishing.
^Not liking RVS isn't a scumtell though, if anything it's a noobtowntell IMO.

@Victor: So that way when I inevitably ISO Newbie I'll have a meta to compare to. I don't want to bother waiting until Newbie's got a wagon on (him? her?) to skim a meta.

@Newbie: Yeah linking would cool, thanks.

@acryon: I'm not gonna get random-lynched and I'm really bad at feeling anything during games, haha. Talk to me after the game and I'll let out the rage.
Not really sure what you want me to say to "Why are you town?" other than I got a town PM. I'm not going to self-meta (I don't even have a scum meta yet) and I don't appreciate people trying to prove how town they are since it's easily WIFOM'd.

Edit: ^Written before post #38, gimme a sec.

I'm the user named 2PM.

http://onehallyu.com/index.php?/topic/8 ... goods-win/ - Was town with a mason partner. I had to guess who they were though.
http://onehallyu.com/index.php?/topic/6 ... ay-thread/ - Mafia. (Username was EverythingToMe. Letting you know so you won't get confused.)

[Newbie]

I joined here in the first place hoping to learn how to play better and to get a different experience, so yeah....I'm kind of horrible, lol.

[Newbie]

I find it weird that wgeurts unlynched wisdom when he started to receive a bit of heat for it.

[Newbie]

Newbie is probtown.

Why?

Waiting for Malakittens to answer this.

[Newbie]

Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?

Not good.

What are you going to do about that?

Vote you as this is not sitting well with me.
VOTE: Wisdom

As you can see from the bolded, Wisdom challenged wgeurts to do something about his discomfort of wagons. He most likely didn't expect that kind of response from Wisdom, and he kind of had no choice but to vote Wisdom since it would've looked bad not to back up his words after he put on a show of showing strong dislike towards Wisdom's random lynch in the first place.

Yeah now that you point that out, Wis, it kinda looks like Victor's fishing for anything "suspicious" that may not actually be scummy. Would've labeled that noobtown behaviour but the join date says otherwise.

FoS: that guy

@wgeurts: Wis got us out of RVS, which you don't seem to like much. If anything that's useful town behaviour; don't vote someone because you don't like their playstyle.

I'm not, it's all a reaction test. For one you took it well by labeling me as newb and moving on. This is slightly town from you as you could have jumped on my BS reasons.
Anyway, there's nothing to gain here.
UNVOTE: Wisdom

With a little heat, he caved and unlynched, falling back on the explanation of reaction fishing. Lol. He even admits that his reasons were BS from the jump, but covered it up well with a "you're definitely town because you reacted a certain way to my sketchy reasoning, sketchy reasoning I definitely did on purpose."

vote: wgeurts

[Newbie]

Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?

Not good.

What are you going to do about that?

Vote you as this is not sitting well with me.
VOTE: Wisdom

As you can see from the bolded, Wisdom challenged wgeurts to do something about his discomfort of wagons. He most likely didn't expect that kind of response from Wisdom, and he kind of had no choice but to vote Wisdom since it would've looked bad not to back up his words after he put on a show of showing strong dislike towards Wisdom's random lynch in the first place.

Yeah now that you point that out, Wis, it kinda looks like Victor's fishing for anything "suspicious" that may not actually be scummy. Would've labeled that noobtown behaviour but the join date says otherwise.

FoS: that guy

@wgeurts: Wis got us out of RVS, which you don't seem to like much. If anything that's useful town behaviour; don't vote someone because you don't like their playstyle.

I'm not, it's all a reaction test. For one you took it well by labeling me as newb and moving on. This is slightly town from you as you could have jumped on my BS reasons.
Anyway, there's nothing to gain here.
UNVOTE: Wisdom

With a little heat, he caved and unlynched, falling back on the explanation of reaction fishing. Lol. He even admits that his reasons were BS from the jump, but covered it up well with a "you're definitely town because you reacted a certain way to my sketchy reasoning, sketchy reasoning I definitely did on purpose."

vote: wgeurts

Yeah, sketchy reasoning I forsaw umm... before I actually voted him.
I must be a psychic or something to see the future, yeah psychic scum. Y'all gonna die.

I'm talking about the sketchy reasons you were calling BS.

[Newbie]

You do know I already said they were weak as heck in or shortly after the vote and before pressure?
I beg you haven't even truely read all my posts and you jumped on me using others reasoning and some made up crumpets.

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

I'm looking at the fact that you used it as crutch to unvote and clear someone's observation of it as "something a townie would do."

Haha, yeah I'm right. A quick ISO has shown you've done no scum hunting and literally just jumped on me out of the blue once people discussed my play. Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

You actually stand out the most to me which is why I went after you. I was suspicious of VD's sudden questioning of mathdino for asking about my playstyle, but VD's responses (which you can read down below) satisfied me.

Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.

You missed the more obvious answer.

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

It completely depends on intent and outcome. I think Mathdino's intent was to establish a play-style for Newbie which he could compare to Newbie's play as the game goes on, so as to avoid writing off Newbie's actions as newb-scum or newb-town. This is a good intent and a favorable outcome for town, as it potentially helps us avoid a mislynch based on bad information. I'm not sure what your intent was, but the outcome for town from your question is that he answers exactly as he did, but then others may avoid those types of questions in fear of being scrutinized, which is overall a negative for town. Not that I think your question carried the kind of weight to make an impact quite like that, but I do think it discourages certain forms of questioning.

That's a lot of guesswork there Acryon. I highly doubt that me asking a question about why someone wanted meta will have others quaking in their boots to question for meta. And this doesn't really answer why you couldn't just wait to see how Mathdino responded.

I've played with a Mala hydra but that's it, which is why I as a relative newcomer have a lot of meta to catch up on. Also I think I played with Duke but the game was abandoned before he posted.

Victor, how many answers to your question would even be possible?

Lots. The question was open ended and I even got a interesting reaction off Acryon to boot. I'm mostly curious as to why Newbie's meta was more valuable to you than others.

I guess what I'm asking is, what were you expecting?

Fun fact, I often ask question I don't know the answer to.

I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, which

tends

to be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

Mathdino tried to get information. You questioned why he wants to get information (which is obvious). That doesn't look like an attempt to get information on your part.

I didn't question why he wanted information, I questioned why he wanted that specific information. There is a difference.

Also, I have new person I want wagon.

VOTE: wgeurts

Everyone get aboard.

Why?

It leads to a party where there's Jelly and ice cream - want some?

Victor if it's not a reaction test, your vote loses credibility if you have no discernible reasons for it.

But why the need to state it's a reaction test. I mean everyone went around labelling votes (reaction test) or (not reaction test) then it would be just silly.

Are you waiting for acryon to answer for you?

Did I miss a question or something?

Edit: Written before #66. And because I didn't really have anything to say on everything after 55, but I don't want to be unambiguous. Sometimes I respond to things people say, and then they post 10 more times before I submit.

Huh, I thought there was something specific about 55. You don't really need to specifically mention just to say I saw but I don't comment.

Why are you spending more time asking questions about these minute details instead of scumhunting, brother?

Questioning is scumhunting, and I have my methods.

EBWODP: Missed a bit

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo (not a test)

Edit: Written before #55.

Why is it important to note the vote is not a test?

Why is important that you wrote your post before 55?

You don't think players should claim serious votes as such?

No, not really. If you want to give reasons, you give reasons.

What are you trying to achieve questioning that?

If someone does something that strikes me as unusual or off then I will question it. It helps get games moving.

[Newbie]

You went after me by instantly voting using other peoples reasons being discussed at that very moment?

Riiiiggghhht.
Also why isn't it possible that what I'm saying is true? You're saying that I used it as a crutch, what makes you think it's fake?

I actually quoted the things that you said which I didn't like and explained why I'm voting you, so how exactly am I using other people's reasoning?

I just think you tried to look overly townish by putting on a show of disliking Wisdom's random voting, but you didn't expect Wisdom to reply back the way that he did. You voted him because it would look odd to back down and used the RVS plus some dodgy reaction fishing excuse. What's really weird is that you took your vote off of Wisdom before he could have any real reaction towards it.

[Newbie]

Wisdom RV'ed and

I took my chance

.

And that's exactly what I think happened. I think you took the whole thing as a "Look, everyone. I'm doing such a townie thing and showing that I don't like random votes." type situation. It's the way that you first replied to Wisdom after his random votes is what really pings me.

Also, woohoo you quoted my posts. So what?
You used the same reasons being discussed at the time.

Maybe the stuff you did was just found universally scummy, so I'm bound to use the same reasons as other people.

[Newbie]

You do realise sometimes people let stuff slip easier if they think they're safe?
Honestly the vote on you was based of little reasoning so the unvote was as well. I don't have any explicit reasoning fro doing so.

All for you newbie; the so hard to find discussion of the reasons you claimed to have created.

I think your reasons for unvoting Wisdom are a bluff. I've already stated that.

[Newbie]

To further elaborate on my point, if you had just said that you don't like randomly voting, then fine. It's the fact that you replied to Wisdom asking why he keeps voting and unvoting. It seemed unnecessary. Haven't you played/lurked mafia games on here before and saw that people here usually do stuff like that right when the game begins?

[Newbie]

Okay. Well it seemed a bit odd to me, so that, coupled with some other things, is why I'm voting you. No hard feelings

[Newbie]

I pretty much already did. I don't think your vote on Wisdom was just to start discussion but because you thought that not acting on your stance after Wisdom called you out would look bad. You'll disagree of course and we'll just continue the back and forth forever, so how about we just leave it here?

[Newbie]

They were the other things I meant.

[Newbie]

I thought the mason case on wgeurts was maybe reaching a bit at first, but then this post happened.

It's confusing now. I'm wondering if a mafia member would act so purposely scummy, but at the same time it

is

too scummy to just let it pass.

I guess this is where usually I fall short and have trouble when it comes to mafia. A townie does something extremely scummy, I jump on the lynch because I'm so sure I caught scum and then the person ends up flipping town. I guess I have to do better in looking for more subtle things and not just the obvious.

[Newbie]

Hey Wisdom, when wgeurts first unvoted you after voting shortly before, did you think it was pretty suspicious at that moment?

[Newbie]

Posts #1 and #2 by Wisdom are weird because they came after wgeurts' voting/unvoting of him as well as the

obvious

suspicious behavior that wgeurts was getting hounded for. I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.

There also hasn't been any real scum hunting from Wisdom, just a few comments here and there about certain players and questions towards certain players. It almost seems like Wisdom is skirting through this phase, asking just the right amount of questions in order to not set off any alarms.

I also think it's possible that Wisdom could've been trying to inch by inch put suspicion on VD with posts 1, 2, and 3.


Of course, if wgeurts flips scum, all of this will most likely become null.

[Newbie]

Wgeurts, make a case. Build on your suspicion of your wagon. Who on it do you think is most likely scum, and which scum do you think is trying to run the town?

[Newbie]

Ninja'd.

[Newbie]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.

unvote

vote: Wisdom

[Newbie]

Wisdom

- With Wisdom,

I'm probably leaning slightly scum.

I just disagree with some of the arguments he is making about Wgeurt and I do feel Wgeurt can't win in Wisdoms eyes over the self-vote situation. I do feel it's a catch 22, and I just don't think this is helpfully for town. (I understand Wisdom disagrees with the catch 22 but I do feel it's a catch 22.)

What is bugging me is that

I have Wisdom leaning slightly town

and just confused with Wgeurt he could be scum but then I don't think the two of them would be arguing like this if they were scum buddies. So if any which one is it? Probably vote soon but not just yet, want to be more comfortable with my decision.

What? Which is it?

[Newbie]

Newbie

, who would you want to lynch if not wgeurts/Wisdom? What are your thoughts on Silver?

Outside of those two, there's really no one else I would be willing to lynch at the moment. I have other suspicions, but I want to let things play out before I say more on that.

As for Silver, I'm getting a town read from them since their current vote is on Wisdom who I'm getting a strong scum feel from. There's a possibility that Silver is bussing a fellow mafia member, but I doubt it.

[Newbie]

See above post. You're also looking at the surface and not beyond that. Being asked to do something does not mean that doing it is okay.

From my perspective, it looked like a townie who was honestly frustrated and wanted the other players to closely observe his wagon when he flips town. He didn't want his death to be in vain. I think posts like this, this, and this gave him good advice and I think he realized that, which in turn gave him hope.

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

If you're lynched and flip as town, then I'm most likely going to be a top scum candidate on mostly everyone's lists. It's the chance I'm willing to take, though. And lol with the rehashed reasoning. If multiple people notice similar scummy things about you, then that can't be helped. My reasons for suspecting you are legit (I will admit that wgeurts' good points added onto it as well.).

Posts #1 and #2 by Wisdom are weird because they came after wgeurts' voting/unvoting of him as well as the

obvious

suspicious behavior that wgeurts was getting hounded for. I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.

There also hasn't been any real scum hunting from Wisdom, just a few comments here and there about certain players and questions towards certain players. It almost seems like Wisdom is skirting through this phase, asking just the right amount of questions in order to not set off any alarms.

I also think it's possible that Wisdom could've been trying to inch by inch put suspicion on VD with posts 1, 2, and 3.


Of course, if wgeurts flips scum, all of this will most likely become null.

[Newbie]

And the first thing he did after all this frustration was "okay, unvote as requested. Nothing's wrong, we're going back to scumhunting. x and y are scum, this is why."
Trust me, this is not how newbtowns deal with frustration. They have their pride to consider, they even think that they'll look more scummy if they back down now that they went this far. It's not making any sense for a newbtown to comeback so easily. I know you probably can't understand me because you lack experience with newbtowns, but I replace into newbies all the time and see such behaviors.

I understand that you have more experience on this, but I quite literally think he saw that unvoting and giving actual, concrete reads would be really helpful to town. He

could

be faking it. Idk. We're just going to have to disagree on this.

Assume I am town for a second. How do you think your and SW's votes look, considering they consist of the same reasoning that has already been explained and also considering their timing?

I'm more leaning scum on SW than I am on you, but it's definitely one of you.

Multiple people seeing the same reasons that someone seems scummy can't be helped. I mean, are we supposed to pull other reasons out of thin air just so they don't coincide?

[Newbie]

I understand what you're saying as well, and I have seen scum do that.

[Newbie]

Newbie

wants to lynch Wisdom (

Newbie

, I'd really appreciate if you expanded on your other suspicions just in case the Wisdom wagon doesn't pull through)

I just realised that I completely forgot to include Newbie in my reads list. Everything on her ISO with the exception of the wagon hop to Wisdom seems townish, but what I don't get is how or why she got convinced so easily by someone she thought was scum a page prior. I could see how she might fall for the AtE self voting/unvoting stuff, but that doesn't negate everything did beforehand.

Newbie, sorry for the rampant questioning, but can you explain this more?

My other suspect was Finnlaw, but I went back and found this. Finnlaw is crossed off of my list for

now

. For now, I'm going to focus one thing at a time, or I'll overload myself, lol.

As for wgeurts, he gave me exactly what I asked for and made a good point against Wisdom, who as you can see I was suspecting before Wgeurts even did the whole self-vote thing. It was pretty much between those two for me (I figured they both couldn't be scum because of earlier interactions, but as you pointed out, bussing does exist. I doubt they were bussing each other if Wisdom does flip as mafia though, but it's a strong possibility to keep in mind.).

On a sidenote, I forgot to say this earlier, but I'm not sure what I think of Newbie's overconfidence that Wisdom isn't town (saying she'll be a top suspect if he does). On the contrary; if Wisdom is lynched and actually flips scum, I'm turning to you for bussing the guy.
Slightly leaning town on Newbie, I don't think that's gonna change until we get at least a flip.

Actually, I remember having thoughts on interactive tells I forgot to post. Lemme see if I can remember those and I'll post a few thoughts in a sec.

I'm actually not

that

confident that wisdom is mafia. I am confident but not extremely. I see can how this post would come off that way. When I said 'if Wsidom's town then I'll be getting lynched but it's a chance that I'm willing to take', I meant that I would probably shoot up on suspect lists for going after a flipped townie, but it's just how it is, and it's a risk I'm willing to take because he's my strong scum suspect at the moment, and I think he'll flip mafia (Again, I could end up being wrong.).

Also, I assure you, if Wisdom does in fact flip mafia, then I'm not bussing him. I find it odd that you said that. It kind of puts me in a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of situation (if Wisdom flips town then I'm highly suspected as a mafia member pushing a town lynch, if Wisdom flips scum then I'm highly suspected for bussing him).

[Newbie]

Hey. Checking in. I'll read back on what I missed later after I'm finished studying.

[Newbie]

I've read up and really don't have anything new to say except that TTH comes off as extremely town and that wgeurts' town/mafia reads are interesting. Looking forward to his case on me.

[Newbie]

I asked every player to elaborate their reads on the person they want lynched.
Why is Wisdom scummy to you?

It's pretty much laid out straightforwardly here. Plus the the really good point that wgeurts' makes right here.

[Newbie]

[/b]
Summary of wisdom points: to me the case is mainly because of his criticism of wgeurts. Please correct me if wrong.

For me, it's because it seeemed like he was trying to skirt through the phase and not take a firm stand on anything.

[Newbie]

Lol.

[Newbie]

wgeurts, I'm interested to see the case you said you had on me yesterday.

[Newbie]

The discussion was a few pages long and you didn't find my vote so scummy at first otherwise you would have pushed it and/or voted me.

I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

You did neither and decided to lurk, that isn't scummy in its self however one of your forst posts afterwords instantly used others reason right after discussion to jump on me. Then the same happens with your vote on wisdom, you lurked and then suddeneley you jump on wisdom

Using arguments others were alreay discussing

.

Actually, the only other person really suspecting Wisdom as that point was TTH. Also, my reasons for suspecting Wisdom were a bit different than TTH's, so...

[Newbie]

What is your reasoning for suspecting Wisdom outside of disliking his interaction with wguerts?

Posts #1 and #2 by Wisdom are weird because they came after wgeurts' voting/unvoting of him as well as the

obvious

suspicious behavior that wgeurts was getting hounded for. I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.

There also hasn't been any real scum hunting from Wisdom, just a few comments here and there about certain players and questions towards certain players. It almost seems like Wisdom is skirting through this phase, asking just the right amount of questions in order to not set off any alarms.

I also think it's possible that Wisdom could've been trying to inch by inch put suspicion on VD with posts 1, 2, and 3.


Of course, if wgeurts flips scum, all of this will most likely become null.

[Newbie]

snip

Why do you keep mentioning masons, especially in the way that you are?

[Newbie]

I think I get it. Wow, lol.

unvote

[Newbie]

Well, it looks like I have to reread the thread now. I'm willing to look more into VD since a lot of people seem suspicious of him.

[Newbie]

After rereading the thread, these are my thoughts/questions/suspicions/whatever else.

Mathdino: He's thrown suspicion at quite a few people but has always backed them up with concrete, well explained reasons. All of his posts contain a great amount of substance and are generally town friendly. He's mostly consistent. I also like this.

There's only one thing that I wouldn't mind a more detailed explanation to.

@mathdino

What about the second half of Victor's ISO made you change your mind and read him as town? (post I'm referring to)

acryon: Didn't really like him answering a question directed towards mathdino at first, but I totally agree with his reasoning for doing it. His posts also made sense when calling wgeurts out for his contradictions earlier. The way he's engaging other players with substance-filled posts comes off as town.

On the other hand, the way that he went after Silverwolf did feel just a bit opportunistic. Point #2 of that entire post seems like reaching if acryon was referring to SW trying to get the wagon off of herself. Also, I don't like how he shares that he heavily thinks wgeurts is town but would still be alright with him getting lynched, even though that's not something he would prefer. Looking at it from a scum perspective, it would allow acryon to be okay with a townie getting lynched while being able to fall back on "well, I did say I didn't like the idea of voting him in the first place."

blindmewithscience: A good amount of substance-filled posts. He stayed consistent with calling out wgeurts to give answers to his questions. I don't like how this post is worded, though. I would be a hypocrite if I held against him the fact that he wanted to give wgeurts a chance for a good outlet since I did it myself, but how it's said is just weird. The way he chose to structure that sentence could be a possible scum slip. Although his defense of it is kind of convincing. He's another one who jumped on SW.

VictorDeAngelo: His early questioning of mathdino was odd, but he had a good point.

Um,

@VictorDeAngelo,

why did it take you a while to answer p ... d wgeurts?

[Newbie]

Shit. I didn't mean to post it yet.

[Newbie]

Hm. Could this be a way to clear some fellow mafia members and incriminate multiple townsfolk by using alignment flips?

SilverWolf: I can see people's points about her earlier posts mostly agreeing with other people's reasonings, but she did add a bit more her insight into things. ex. (I think she was even actually the first one to specifically mention a slayer's gambit), ex., ex., ex., ex..

On the other hand, her defense against mathdino, acryon, and Wisdom didn't come off too well. Who knows, maybe SW is just an emotional person, but it did not look good for her.

wgeurts: You already know how I feel about him. Thought the whole vote/unvote thing was really scummy, and then he continued to do really scummy things, that if he was scum seems things only scum that wants to purposefully get caught would do. Since my Wisdom read has changed, I am now on the fence about him.

@wguerts

Would you mind sharing all of your town/scum reads so far?

Not_Mafia: Don't really have much to say until he starts posting fully.

TTH: All I can say about her is that she comes off

extremely

town to the point that I would be thoroughly surprised and impressed if it turns out she's not. She has played a great town game, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of her posts.

Malakittens: What I found interesting is that she was one of the only people to right away declare that wgeurts is town after his self vote. She didn't even ask him for reads or anything. Is this a case of scum (malakittens) trying to vouch for a scum partner (wgeurts), or scum (malakittens) trying to capitalize on vouching for a townie (wgeurts)? The latter I can see the most. Note that this post came afterwards. No idea what to make of it.

A bit of fence sitting. Also, why the change of heart on wgeurts? Again, why the change of heart?

SCtH: I have to find strength to really read through his posts. I'll do his later.

FinnLaw: I really like this post. He has a lot of posts I like and agree with actually. I'm leaning town on him for now.


Eh. So this is how I feel about things so far. If you feel like reading it, do so.

[Newbie]

This pinged me; I can't say I'm comfortable with this part of the post. This read seems much more IIOA and summary than any sort of analysis, and really comes across to me as fencesitting. At any point you can make a stance on SilverWolf and it'd still be consistent with this post. Do you

have

a read on her, Newbie?

Quite honestly, the way people jumped on SW seemed really opportunistic with some flimsy reasons, but like I said, the way that she overreacted to the heat was a little off settling. My read on her is null at the moment.

Here's my other issue with your post, Newbie.

You're on the fence with literally almost everyone in this game

, it's mostly just "this is a good point, this is a not-so-good point" but I got nothing out of reading that, not even where you stand, which defeats the purpose of reads list. Furthermore I'm not even convinced by anything you've said since you don't have a stance to really argue for. There's MORE than enough information in this game to come up with something but I'm not even sure who you'd be for or against lynching, and we're nearing deadline fast.

I purposefully did my reads like this. I figured noting the townish and both scummy things that everyone has done would help me to avoid confirmation bias on thinking someone is scum.

Here's another question, since you apparently liked the post where I asked something like this. Who are your top 2 candidates for lynching (outside of policy)? What other suspicions were you talking about here?

Malakittens is my only current top candidate right now. I don't like how she with

complete

certainty

declared that wgeurts was just a frustrated townie right away, but seemed to soft push him as a possible mafia member a couple of posts later. She also told people to unvote but then said this.

Also, I was talking about FinnLaw in that post, but it fell through because he started to look town.

Addendum because I don't feel like putting it above: I have a fleeting suspicion that Newbie went with this reads list because she felt compelled to in order to be active and provide thoughts, not because it really helps scumhunt. Reading through her ISO gives me a definite feel of

fencesittiness on anyone that she's not currently voting on.

Since we're nearing deadline I'm not going to push a Newbie lynch (and I still have to look over Victor) but I think this stuff should be kept in mind just in case. Very much beginning to rethink my read on her in light of Silver's meta and what people are reading off her AtE stuff.
Oh, yeah,

FoS: her

.

There's no fencesitting with people my votes aren't on. I just literally have trouble focusing on different aspects at the same time and not tunneling. If I feel someone is scum, I put my vote on them and go from there. That's what I'm used to and how I've basically always played since I've started mafia forum games.

[Newbie]

I'd be willing to lynch either Victor or Riddleton.

[Newbie]

@mathdino, If the vote count is up to date, it says that Victor is at L-3.

Aaand I was waiting for someone to bring up the fact that there seems to be some resistance to vote Victor from certain players.

Vote:VictorDeAngelo

[Newbie]

I'm keeping my vote on Victor for the time being.

[Newbie]

SCtH: I have to find strength to really read through his posts. I'll do his later.

Newbie, can you do this maybe now? Ish? You've given no reasons for the wagons you're willing to be on; I mean at least we have arguments from TTH and Riddleton.
If Const flips scum, I'm going to be a lil suspish here.

I think it's weird how

apathetic

Victor seems to be towards being almost lynched, especially when the deadline is almost here. I want to see what he has to say after reading up (I think there's enough time until the deadline for that.). I also think the case against him holds more ground than the case against Constantine.

[Newbie]

Lol if Victor flips scum.

If he flips town, I'll admit that I was wrong and vote malakittens.

[Newbie]

Anyways:

VDA is scum.

Newbie just gave me hibbyjibbies.

Bmws/mathdino/tth/Finn/mm are all town.
Wisdom im unsure.
sctH is probably town.
Riddle gutscum.

I forgot the rest so yah >_>

What does this mean?

[Newbie]

Honestly, I think VD was willing to run up the time.

[Newbie]

No, but I'm just saying I think he was hoping people would continue to hold off and wait for his reads so he could "accidentally" be too late with them.

Not agreeing with what Malakittens did, though.

[Newbie]

Not necessarily. I think he would've stalled for as much as he could get away with and/or possibly came out with a scum read on Constantine, enabling him to jump on Constantine's lynch.

All I have to say is, things will be interesting once he flips (think it'll be scum).

[Newbie]

K
Confirmed newbie is scum with victor.

I would love to know how you came to this conclusion.

I think it's weird how I asked you to look over Constantine's posts and you decided to talk about Victor instead.

I looked at your ISO and you've had 0 thoughts on Constantine this game. Do you plan on following through with reading through his posts?

At this point I'm just gonna ask you to read/skim my case, haha.

I did read your case. It was good, but I thought that riddle's case against VD held more ground, coupled with VD's apathy (not to mention, Constantine was the one who went after VD), so VD was my preferable lynch.

[Newbie]

K
Confirmed newbie is scum with victor.

I would love to know how you came to this conclusion.

I guess this isn't getting answered, lol. I'm legitimately curious how I'm Victor's scum partner.

[Newbie]

Eh. I thought it was obvious that my reason for voting Victor was because of the way he voted wgeurts with no real explanation. That's why I asked him for the reason, and why I agreed with riddleton's case against him that dealt heavily with that. It's also why I wanted him to read back.

Also, where did I say anywhere that I town read Victor

after

my reads list?

[Newbie]

Newbie, why didn't you post that observation regarding MAth's constantinte case and your comparison to Riddle's VDA case sometime earlier? Just curious why that observation/opinion wasn't relevant then.

I didn't think it was relevant at the moment. I wasn't taking my vote off of VD anytime soon anyway.

Well you didn't post much after your reads list, except in defending yourself against my suspicions of said reads list. So nowhere, technically.

Occurs to me that the fact that of all game events occurring you only responded to direct questioning reads fairly defencive. You saying you'd be willing to lynch Victor/Riddleton was prompted by me. I'm not really sure what prompted the vote itself, but the way that page reads makes me think TTH convinced you to do it.

I just don't understand why you didn't vote him the moment I asked who you want to lynch.

Fairly defensive? I just answered people's questions straightforwardly, no condescending tone or anything. Basically what I'm doing right now, lol. I wasn't even mad while answering them.

Many factors convinced me to vote VD. After I declared I would go back and read the thread and that I would look at VD, I did. I found it odd that he voted for wgeurts and gave no reason for it at all. We still have no reason for it now. That's why when I posted my reads, I asked him to tell his reason for the wgeurts vote. It's also why I wanted him to read up on the thread before Malakittens hammered him (I had a gut feeling he was stalling anyway, though.). Riddleton's case elaborated on it further and his other points were good as well. After that, I noticed that it seemed some people were throwing out other names (riddleton and Constantine for example) to get away from the VD lynch. That further cemented my suspicion. (Although, this post was a bit suspicious, which is why I was willing to lynch either VD or riddle, but the circumstances around VD seemed more damning.)

[Newbie]

I would vote Wisdom, but I'm completely confused about something.

Also, I love how I'm accused of bussing my someone that was so adamant to let VD speak earlier but ended up "accidentally" hammering him and going oh well afterwards.

[Newbie]

Do I detect a scumread on Malakittens or a tu quoque fallacy? Justify yourself, Newbie. Calling out hypocrisy is not a good response, as there are very very good reasons that Mala's town.

I'm just saying it's funny how I'm getting accused of bussing by Mala when the way she hammered VD was really odd. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

Vote: Wisdom

[Newbie]

Also, I love how I'm accused of bussing my someone that was so adamant to let VD speak earlier but ended up "accidentally" hammering him and going oh well afterwards.

Wasn't your position yesterday that you thought Mala was more likely scum if Vic had flipped town?

If not, what are you trying to say here?

I'm saying the way she hammered looked more like bussing than my vote supposedly did.

That's all.

[Newbie]

Do I detect a scumread on Malakittens or a tu quoque fallacy? Justify yourself, Newbie. Calling out hypocrisy is not a good response, as there are very very good reasons that Mala's town.

I'm just saying it's funny how I'm getting accused of bussing by Mala when the way she hammered VD was really odd. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

Vote: Wisdom

I didn't accuse you of busing, are you reading my posts? You aren't even in my lynchpool today.

It looked like both you and mathdino were accusing me of it, but if you weren't, then I apologize.

[Newbie]

I'm saying the way she hammered looked more like bussing than my vote supposedly did. That's all.

What is your read on mala?

Leaning town since I agree with her Wisdom vote.

[Newbie]

This is why you're reading things in a way that suits your reads. There are more ways to read this:

Victor gives a townread on Mala, stating that he'll be keeping an eye on her so that he can change that later if suspicion rises on her. The next post is consistent with his townread. Then he states some mild suspicion on her having to do with her abscence. He does that when it's safe, as Mala has little if any suspicion on her.

There is zero reason to think that those can't be scum-scum interactions.

Okay. Now consider Mala being his buddy. She posts, as Newbie pointed out, that she does not like the Victor wagon and she'd like him to speak. She does so 4 times. Then, when see sees that Victor is not doing it, she feels "fuck, he's being obvscum, like he did in that previous game" and buses him, not realizing that not everyone will think of that.

Her initial reasoning is "I thought we were at deadline", not "I am sure he is scum". She changes to this reasoning later. Yet she attacks Newbie for being sure he is scum, like she was.

Then today she completely forgets about acryon and attacks me out of nowhere, after listing me as nulltown in the end of day. None of this makes any sense. That's why I think acryon is probably the third, because this convenient forgetting about prior scumreads happens a lot for scum.

I totally agree. There's valid reasons that can be made about Malakittens and Victor being a scum team. Only a Newbie/Victor scum team is possible, though.

With that said, I don't like the way that you and acryon avoided the VD lynch, even going as far as to throw out counter lynches.

[Newbie]

The VD lynch sucked, nobody who was voting him ever gave any good reason for voting Victor. I hated it and wanted actual scum lynched.

You didn't find the fact that he threw out a vote for wgeurts without any reason (I think you were actually one of the first people that directly asked him why and received a fluff answer), Riddleton's case, and his apathy towards being lynched good enough?

[Newbie]

Fair enough and good point. It doesn't make you town, though.

For me, it's between you and acryon.

unlynch: Wisdom

I want to see what acryon has to say.

[Newbie]

I totally agree. There's valid reasons that can be made about Malakittens and Victor being a scum team. Only a Newbie/Victor scum team is possible, though.

With that said, I don't like the way that you and acryon avoided the VD lynch, even going as far as to throw out counter lynches.

I cringe every time you post something like this while ostensibly supporting a mala town read. I don't get your trajectory on her or why you keep bringing this up.

I'm just wondering why mathdino is accepting valid reasons for one but not the other.

[Newbie]

@bork I'm explaining my yesterday behavior, not my current one.

@Newbie I don't get it. Didn't you say you agree with the Mala case? Why is it between me and acryon?

I agreed with Malakitten's vote for you. You and acryon were resisting the VD lynch the most.

[Newbie]

@ Wisdom, Yes. I considered Mala being scum, but like I said, just because you had a good point about not liking Riddleton's argument doesn't make you town. Weaknesses can be exploited in almost any argument, but doing so isn't always town motivation.

@mathdino I know people bus, but it doesn't mean that one of acryon or Wisdom wasn't trying to deplete the momentum of the VD lynch.

[Newbie]

@ Wisdom, Yes. I considered Mala being scum, but like I said, just because you had a good point about not liking Riddleton's argument doesn't make you town. Weaknesses can be exploited in almost any argument, but doing so isn't always town motivation.

I still don't get your stance in regards to Mala. Didn't you say you agree with (part of?) my case on her? Didn't you point out her contradictions yourself? Yet you look like you're townreading her and I don't understand. Can you explain your thoughts on Mala in full?

I feel that one of you (leaning more towards you) or acryon are scum, and she has her vote on you.

[Newbie]

@ Wisdom, Yes. I considered Mala being scum, but like I said, just because you had a good point about not liking Riddleton's argument doesn't make you town. Weaknesses can be exploited in almost any argument, but doing so isn't always town motivation.

I still don't get your stance in regards to Mala. Didn't you say you agree with (part of?) my case on her? Didn't you point out her contradictions yourself? Yet you look like you're townreading her and I don't understand. Can you explain your thoughts on Mala in full?

I feel that one of you (leaning more towards you) or acryon are scum, and she has her vote on you.

And? That makes her town? What about the possibility you're wrong about both? What does that say about Mala?

Um, well yes. If she was one of the first to bring up and lynch someone who I think is scum, then I'm leaning town on her at the moment, which could definitely change. And you're right. I could be wrong. Just like you could be wrong about Malakittens, just like everybody else could be wrong about the people they're voting.

[Newbie]

So tell me if I understand right; you thought that Mala attacking you for bussing while her own actions looked more like bussing was suspicious, but then her voting me changed your read on her?

Um, no. I'm still keeping the possibility that she can be scum. I'm not eliminating her.

[Newbie]

Yes, but it's not as if I changed my read on you to accommodate that.

[Newbie]

Why did you unvote me then?

Because I want to see what acryon has to say.

[Newbie]

Ugh whatever, I'm mixing up shit. Either way I can't really explain gut, but I had a jibe from her posts that didn't sit well with me. Just that at the same time she was attacking me for hammering Vic she couldn't actually make her up mind. Something was off, but I can't exactly pin point it hence why I didn't explain it at the time because I couldn't. I still can't.

Could you point out what I couldn't make up my mind about exactly?

Also, going back to

Vote: Wisdom

[Newbie]

Also, going back to

Vote: Wisdom

You indicated that you unvoted to hear what I had to say. I assume you have some comments on what you did/didn't like about what I had to say for the vote to come back?

Yep. Straightforwardly, I like this post.

[Newbie]

I doubt Riddleton is scum, I don't recall him taking any opportunity to hop off Victor. Day 1 lynches are bad for scum even if they hard bus as the "why aren't you dead? " question willl bite them in the arse eventually

This. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but the way he went about it and so early in the game. I mean, yeah, he could've bussed, but you can say anyone in the game is bussing since we don't know for sure who's mafia and who isn't. Out of all the people on Victor's wagon, I just don't see him being the one that bussed.

Newbie, your opinion on Riddle?

I don't really agree about him bussing Victor, so therefore he looks town in my eyes for now. I will say he needs to do more this day phase, though. I may have to check again, but I don't remember him dropping the case on Malakittens that he claimed he would.

[Newbie]

^
That's actually a pretty solid case.

unvote

[Newbie]

I doubt Riddleton is scum, I don't recall him taking any opportunity to hop off Victor. Day 1 lynches are bad for scum even if they hard bus as the "why aren't you dead? " question willl bite them in the arse eventually

This. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but the way he went about it and so early in the game. I mean, yeah, he could've bussed, but you can say anyone in the game is bussing since we don't know for sure who's mafia and who isn't. Out of all the people on Victor's wagon, I just don't see him being the one that bussed.

Newbie, your opinion on Riddle?

I don't really agree about him bussing Victor, so therefore he looks town in my eyes for now. I will say he needs to do more this day phase, though. I may have to check again, but I don't remember him dropping the case on Malakittens that he claimed he would.

Noooope.

Not_Mafia, Newbie

, I sincerely hope you read the 2nd part of this post, because that really is what Riddlescum does. Seriously. He opens the game and writes a case on his partner if there's momentum for their lynch already.

Again, my point is not that he's scum because he wrote a case on scum. My point is

that does not make him town at

at all

. SilverWolf's actions and his trying to PL himself is what makes him scum.

Good post, wgeurts, I agree that the Mala case is actually kinda compelling. Waiting until the rest of your reads for further comments.

Edit: Goddamn it Riddleton, can you stop talking about yourself and write a case so we have direction in case you flip town?

Okay. Well, I can't really deny the evidence in my face. I see your point now.

Also

Riddleton

, where is that case on Malakittens?

[Newbie]

unvote

I really don't understand how you're thinking.
Is it "I default to voting Wisdom until someone says something I can agree with"?
And I still fail to comprehend whether you feel Mala is town or scum.[/quote]

It's mafia. Nobody knows who's what, so I can't help jumping on/off a lynch. Wgeurts made a convincing case against Malakittens, and I wouldn't mind voting her.

[Newbie]

Ugh. I messed up the quote.

[Newbie]

Wisdom, who are you scum reading. Same to riddleton.
Might as well include newbie.

I'd be willing to vote Wisdom, Malakittens, and probably you (The fact that you keep asking for mason claims when you know it's a horrible idea looks like scum doing something people would think is too ballsy for scum to do. In other words, trying to hide in plain sight.).

Riddleton

, what happened to the Malakittens case you were supposed to build? I mean, I know I'm a 'newbie', but it would be nice if I wasn't ignored :/

[Newbie]

It's mafia. Nobody knows who's what, so I can't help jumping on/off a lynch. Wgeurts made a convincing case against Malakittens, and I wouldn't mind voting her.

I'm still not any closer to understanding your thought process :/
You have doubts about Mala, so wguerts makes a convincing case that you can agree with.
At the same time, you think Mala is town because she's voting me.
I lose you somewhere between those two.

Why can't I just think it's possible that one of you are scum, but I'm not sure which one it is? :/

[Newbie]

It's mafia. Nobody knows who's what, so I can't help jumping on/off a lynch. Wgeurts made a convincing case against Malakittens, and I wouldn't mind voting her.

I'm still not any closer to understanding your thought process :/
You have doubts about Mala, so wguerts makes a convincing case that you can agree with.
At the same time, you think Mala is town because she's voting me.
I lose you somewhere between those two.

Why can't I just think it's possible that one of you are scum, but I'm not sure which one it is? :/

You can, but what makes you believe that?

Why can't we be both town?

I there really a reason for that question? Because I've been suspicious of you from day one (Only reason I unvoted you day one was because of a misunderstanding that I'm not willing to talk about right now). The way you acted towards the VD lynch doesn't help, either. As for Malakittens, there's various reasons.

[Newbie]

@Newbie
This doesn't answer my question. You are acting like there HAS to be one scum in us two. Why are you not considering the possibility both of us are town and you're simply mistaken about both?

Why would I consider you both town when you've both done highly scummy things and you both have the same chance of being mafia as everyone else?

[Newbie]

Right. Okay. Sorry bout that guys, generally shitty day. Will ignore.

I there really a reason for that question? Because I've been suspicious of you from day one (Only reason I unvoted you day one was because of a misunderstanding that I'm not willing to talk about right now). The way you acted towards the VD lynch doesn't help, either. As for Malakittens, there's various reasons.

Newbie, I think there's a fairly good chance Wisdom and Mala are both town, and a few people would agree. Their argument doesn't read particularly TvS, for example.
Is there a reason you're still unwilling to vote Riddleton after conceding the meta argument?

Just because other people see both Malakittens and Wisdom as town, it's 100% certain? Also, I'm still waiting for his Malakittens case.

[Newbie]

What are the highly scummy things I've done? Pushing a wagon I felt was terrible? Pushing my scumreads?

Like I've outlined in this post, you skirted through most of the first half of the dayphase, coupled with the fact that you pushed lynches

other

than the VD one, which happened to be the scum lynch, for the second half of the dayphase.

(Only reason I unvoted you day one was because of a misunderstanding that I'm not willing to talk about right now)

But one that is apparently no longer in play since you're willing to vote him again?

Only it was no longer in play since the last bit of last day phase. Again, I'm not willing to talk about because it would probably be anti town.

[Newbie]

No, but just because you see Malakittens and Wisdom as TvS doesn't mean it's 100% certain, and enough townies disagree on this for it to be up in the air. This is the same thing we talked about earlier; tunneling like that doesn't really help further discussion.

Still waiting on your answer to my Riddleton question.

Anyway, the funny thing is, Mala's openly admitted that the scumread on Wisdom was gut combined with Victor's posts partially pointing to him, and Mala's probably most adequately explained her scumread on him. I mean if you want to use Mala's logic (as opposed to gut), IMO, it leads straight to Riddleton rather than Wisdom. So you very much do need to explain what Wisdom's done that's scummy.

I'm still waiting for his Mala case.

I can already tell you probably won't even agree with my scumread on Wisdom, and in your eyes, since you don't agree with it, I shouldn't have him as a scum suspect.

[Newbie]

What are the highly scummy things I've done? Pushing a wagon I felt was terrible? Pushing my scumreads?

Like I've outlined in this post, you skirted through most of the first half of the dayphase, coupled with the fact that you pushed lynches

other

than the VD one, which happened to be the scum lynch, for the second half of the dayphase.

Wait a second, the 2nd half of that post is about how he's trying to 'inch by inch put suspicion on Victor'. So now that was distancing I'm guessing?

I don't like how that post and the posts it links to basically make Wisdom scum in your eyes

no matter what Victor's flip is

.

Rofl. Isn't that what you're basically doing to riddleton?

Regarding to Wisdom and Victor, I also think thiswas a way for Wisdom to distance himself a bit and also get some town cred for calling out VD's weird behavior in the beginning. Notice how he didn't directly question him about it like acryon but directly asks him about the wgeurts lynch.

[Newbie]

Speaking of that case

I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.

Why is that hard to believe? Do you think that everyone sees everything the same way? What you're saying here is that because I didn't see something the way you saw it, I'm scum. And it makes no sense how you go from that to "his questions are fluff" either.

What makes my questions fluff as opposed to actual questions to figure out things?

Your questions just came off as fluff to me, and it seriously looked like you were skirting through the phase without really making any commitments to anything.

[Newbie]

@Newbie: Good question, actually had to think about that for a bit. But it is different. Here's the thing; my thoughts on Riddleton have little to do with Victor. Victor is irrelevant to Riddleton, that's what the meta argument proved: that the fact that Riddleton pushed a scum wagon doesn't give him towncred. Now, that fact doesn't give him scumpoints. What makes him scum is SilverWolf's scummy behaviour

independent of others

, the fact that Riddleton keeps trying to PL himself, and partially due to how Victor talked about SilverWolf (which is actually fairly significant).
The thing is, coming up with possible scenarios and possible scum motivations is pretty much a confbias case, and only really proves they're not 100% town.

@acryon: Or maybe he's just a troll and we should all PM the mod about the fact that he tried to roleplay a mafia game, won't stop calling the entire thread idiotic, made up a new wincon for himself, and (I think this pretty much proves he's a troll) tried to make up out of thin air 'argumem de axiom', 'argumem de obicular', and 'argumem de astern'. Seriously, google those. Google 'obicular'. You're right in that he's not a VI or a newbie. He's just a troll.

That's the thing though, I didn't really SW as scummy.

[Newbie]

Your questions just came off as fluff to me

I fail to see how my questions can be even interpreted as fluff. Can you link to questions of mine that you feel don't advance the game in any way?

But that's not even the point. You said "therefore, his questions come off as fluff" like this comes as a conclusion from the fact I didn't share your view about whether wgeurts was scummy. Can you explain?

I just linked you two. Before that question, wgeurts unvoted you and received flack for it and then he got voted up. The biggest things are that you continued to skirt through the phase with no reads/scum hunting, and when you finally did vote, it was sort of an omgsus reaction to wgeurts. After that, you continued trying to push any wagons other than the VD one, which I find interesting that you didn't even put your vote on any of the two that you wanted to vote last day phase (Constantine and Riddleton) this day phase.

[Newbie]

Because she was voting me, I bet

Nope.

[Newbie]

^
Yeah. That's why I'm completely confused. Nobody counterclaimed Wisdom when he showed that he understood what TTH was talking about, so I figured TTH was probably right about Wisdom as a mason. If he knew he wasn't a mason, I wonder he didn't deny it...

vote: Wisdom

Also, that hint Malakittens left during twilight completely went over my head.

[Newbie]

^
Yeah. That's why I'm completely confused. Nobody counterclaimed Wisdom when he showed that he understood what TTH was talking about, so I figured TTH was probably right about Wisdom as a mason. If he knew he wasn't a mason, I wonder he didn't deny it...

vote: Wisdom

Also, that hint Malakittens left during twilight completely went over my head.

I guess I'm only confused by what made you decide you were wrong about Wisdom being a mason on D1? Can you show me?

Because TTH said she's rethinking her case on Wisdom being town, and he didn't even say anything about it. That's when it hit me that oh shi..it was a misunderstanding.

[Newbie]

This is the post.

After some thought, I'm reversing my opinion on Wisdom again. I'll talk more about it and other things in a couple hours when I have the chance.

[Newbie]

I think you're actually misinterpreting that post (See 873 that explains what's actually happening there) but honestly that's what I thought too before I reread it a few times.

p-edit: @newbie

Yeah...I thought post 873 was explaining why she went back to her original thought, lol.

[Newbie]

Town is slaying it :p

Vote: Riddleton

I agree about it being either Riddleton, Constantine, or acryon.

[Newbie]

Vote:Constantine

[Newbie]

So I decided to go through Constantine's ISO.

Children, let's...

Excommunicate: VictordeAngelo

Would you call me crazy if the lord told me that none of the current lynch targets are scum?

The lord gives me the authority to cooperate. Mathdino, patron saint of foolishness, it is you who is arrogant. Arrogant to the passion of christ.
You should be stigmatized for you ignorance. Don't you realize you're the main reason why god wants VictorDeAngelo Dead?
Yes, the lord suspects an unusual early connection and rvs ploy in the works.

The lord has given me the 10 commandments from his second holy advent. Number Five went like this....

If the fool wont cry, he's likely caught in a lie or has something to hide.

Fool, I didn't cry, not because I am caught in a lie, but I had several cards to hide. Victor's vote was a calling to the lord.
For you to come out and show your true colors. Me and Lucifer made a wager. He said that you wouldn't defend victor, but the lord led me to disagree.
Now that you have come out in his defense, without me having to reveal my intentions, I can justly say, I am sure Victor and Mathdino are scum buddies.

The question is who's a bigger threat. Enie Menie Miny Mo, Catch a Tiger by His Toe, My Mother Says to Pick the Very Best One.....it, is, not, you
VOTE: VictorDeAngelo
Come all with common sense. Read through Victor and Mathdino's lustful interactions. Homosexuality! Abominable!

He put out a vote for Victor.

I know that everyone is going to say bussing, but this is the vote count that was literally a couple of posts before his vote.

MOD STUFF

Well I think we all saw this coming...One of you dates Mileena and one of you dates Kitana. Seriously. Love makes fools of us all. And it can turn friends into enemies!

No updates to the votecount unless my eyes deceived me.

VOTE COUNT!!!!

Wisdom-TellTaleHeart, wgeurts, Newbie, Silverwolf (L-3)
FinnLaw-
wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, blindmewithscience, Wisdom (L-4)
St. Constantine The Hermit-
Newbie-
Malakittens-
SilverWolf-Mathdino, acryon (L-5)
Not_Mafia-
TellTaleHeart-
VictorDeAngelo-
Mathdino-
blindmewithscience-
acryon-

not voting-FinnLaw, St. Constantine The Hermit, Not_Mafia, malakittens

With 13 Alive it's 7 to lynch.
Deadline=(expired on 2014-10-29 07:00:00)

VictorDeAngelo is on indefinite/unspecified V/LA
Not_Mafia is V/LA until 10/23/2014

The group spends a lot of time identifying all the constellations in the clear night sky.

unvote: Constantine

vote: acryon

[Newbie]

BWMS

He votes wgeurts here but adds "only so that he can create a good defense to Mathdino." The way it's worded is really weird, as if he knows that wgeurts is town and is just looking for an easy avenue to back out of wgeurts' lynch or an easy avenue to stay on it.

Next, he decides to jump on and hound SilverWolf (this is before Riddleton replaced her) along with Mathdino, Wisdom, Acryon, and VD (which is funny because all three mafia are amongst the five ) for her over emotional response to Mathdino's questioning. Mathdino even calls attention to his buddying.

His next vote is on Constantine. Constantine was a pretty easy target at the time because of his obnoxious behavior. Also note that Constantine was one of the alternate lynches to VD.

He mentions not finding Wisdom scum. He also makes a show of getting on Constantine's case and asks him what exactly makes Wisdom town when he never explained why he himself doesn't think Wisdom isn't scum. Still doesn't vote for Wisdom ever after this post.

All in all, I think he jumped on easy town lynches while avoiding Wisdom's and VD's.

Vote: blindmewithscience

[Newbie]

Here is what I have on Newbie:
If Newbie liked the post, then why would the vote move back to Wisdom based on that conclusion of mine? Then, after wguerts posts, the vote is removed once again.

Just because I didn't agree with some things in the post doesn't mean I didn't like it.

[Newbie]

Newbie,

why are you not voting me? Your reasoning for voting BMWS would make me think you'd be more willing to vote me on those points.

Huh? Because I think you're town. In terms of being scum: bmws and acryon>>>>you. Plus, you've played differently from bmws, so I wouldn't vote you on those points. Like it was said, if you're not town then GG.

[Newbie]

You've gotta be kidding me, Newbie. I bolded things that BMWS has done that are exactly what I've done.

You need to explain what makes my play and BMWS's play different, because I'm seriously getting the idea that you're hopping on an easier lynch.

Because you've been way more extremely townish than bmws. Point blank.

[Newbie]

I really don't understand how you can't see it.

[Newbie]

Newbie, I can see it because from my standpoint I've been more townish than BMWS from the moment I got my PM.
That's not what I'm trying to establish.

I'm trying to see what it is that sets BMWS apart from me in your eyes

. Because at the end of the day, you're scumreading BMWS for doing

exactly

what I've done and you need to expand on that a bit. Does my townishness outweigh the fact that I've done those things, or is doing those things just not scummy for me?

Basically what I'm saying is "Try again" when it comes to that BMWS case.

You've done

way

more townish things than BMWS. I don't think that you jumped on easy lynches, just that you were a misguided townie. That's the difference. Why would I vote the one that seems extremely town?

And lol, no. I'm not dropping my bmws case. It's either him or Acryon, so if it aint him, it's Acryon.

Like it was said, if you're not town, then GG.

[Newbie]

So just to be clear, you find my jumping on bad lynches outweighed by the more townish things I've done? Because your post also doesn't illustrate why BMWS is jumping on easy lynches and I'm just misguided.

Seriously? The fact that your posts have way more substance than bmws's, and you actually searched up Riddleton's meta in terms of him voting his scum partners all come off as genuine town to me and tip the scales in your favor.

[Newbie]

Hmm, alright.

Have you looked over acryon yet?

Decided why it's not him?

Yes I did. He practically did some of the same things bmws did (stay off the Wisdom and VD lynch). The only difference is that bmws was more sneakier with his whereas acryon hard defended VD and Wisdom.

[Newbie]

His posts contain great substance. When he's voting someone, he backs his reasons up, also the fact that he went through the trouble to find Riddleton's scum meta. It's the complete opposite of VD and Wisdom.

[Newbie]

It's mafia. That's inevitable. You take a shot in the dark and put effort into cases. It doesn't change the fact that his actions seemed genuine, especially compared to other players in the game.

[Newbie]

Also,
UNVOTE:

Why are you unvoting if you don't think mathdino is scum?

[Newbie]

I would like to hear bmws' thoughts on all of this.

mathdino, I feel like all you've done this game is call all my reads crap because of the fact that I'm fairly new at MS (I actually think my Wisdom and bmws cases were solid).

Also, since it's between me and acryon for you, which one are you going for?

[Newbie]

213 has Victor stating he likes "both the vote and point from Newbie in 124." Nothing standing out. Then here in 228 Newbie almost preempts her suspicion of wgeurts, saying that as town, she often jumps on extremely scummy players and they end up flipping town. Reads like preparation for possibly being wrong about wgeurts.

I was just being honest since it's legit why I did so badly on almost all of the forum mafia games I've played.

237, her Wisdom case. Now, let's be clear, Wisdom was not scummy D1. It was D2 where he stood out, but not early D1. See, Newbie was the first one to write up a case on Wisdom, stretching his actions a bit to look scummy, followed by going back to wgeurts. Scum tends to be hyperaware of their partners' shady behaviour because they know each other to be scum. wgeurts going after Wisdom, that makes sense from his perspective since he knew himself to be town and he was half OMGUSing. But Newbie- there wasn't really much to be suspicious of Wisdom for at that stage. Wisdom did not respond to said case.

How was it stretched out? He was literally skirting through the phase, throwing out fluff posts here and there. There was

no

scum hunting at all.

Then right after I asked Newbie what her thoughts were on Wisdom's wgeurts votepost, Newbie votes Wisdom here with the validation of wgeurts's case. Then in 313 she arbitrarily townreads Silver for agreeing with her, and states that a Silver/Wisdom pair is unlikely for no discernible reason. But 324 is what I had an issue with back then. Newbie goes out on a limb and states that if Wisdom flips town, she's probably going to be a top scum candidate. This shows awareness of other's perception of her, and the fact that she was willing to gamble that made me think she might've been bussing Wisdom. I actually forgot about that until I think acryon brought it up. Well, Wisdom flipped scum and Newbie got her towncred.

Once again, I was being blunt and honest. People would've most likely looked at me since I was pushing for him so hard.

341 shows a conversation between Wisdom and Newbie, where he repeats that one of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, but that he's leaning toward SW. Newbie responds saying it can't be helped if multiple people find an action scummy. But here's the thing I don't like: Wisdom asks Newbie directly, " How do you think your and SW's votes look". He's asking her about how others would perceive her behaviour. This very strongly suggests coaching to me. Then in 389 she responds to my bussing accusation, along with echoing the statement that Silver/Wisdom aren't scum together with the statement that wgeurts is not bussing Wisdom. Doesn't state reasons for coming to this conclusion. Also I don't know about acryon, but I found her response to my thoughts on her/Wisdom rather scummy with the knowledge now that Wisdom is town.

I really don't know how to comment on this one since I don't why Wisdom even asked that or what he was getting at.

I believe I already commented on the fencesittiness of her reads lists, I'm not going to go back to that.

Like I've said already, that was done on purpose. It's the reason I put spaces between the scummy and non scummy actions.

Reaction to the Victor lynch: Here she states that she wants more from Victor, saying there's more time for that, but then states that Victor was probably willing to run up the time in 925.

Yep. It started to become pretty obvious that that's probably what he was doing.

[Newbie]

Whoops, fell asleep while looking through acryon's ISO
I'm a bit busy ATM, but got through about 2/3 of it all. I'll just point out a few things right now, and try to make a larger post later.
556: IF he were scum, then it would be really weird for him to directly point out his two scumbuddies, especially at this point in the game. For me, this leans him null-town.
560: Says that scum-Wisdom leading the wgeurts lynch is highly unlikely. I semi-agreed with this at the time, though it obviosuly turned out to be incorrect. This brings him back to null.
1221: Thinks Wisdom is misguided town, Constantine is scum, but with valid reasons (and both ended up incorrect).
I'll try to post something more substantial later.

Responding to 1840:
I think you're arguing that I'm scum for sitting back with my posts, buddying up with both scum and some things that Wis & VDA said in reference to me.
1. I really think that that's a kind of personality thing for me, sitting back on things and not really making black and white opinions. I'm not exactly an "aggressive" guy.
For the second, I'm going to point to what you said about my 310 and 325: Was it wrong for me to comment on the

main topic

at the time? And VDA and Wisdom weren't the only people talking about those wagons, or on these wagons IIRC. Basically everyone in the game was discussing that. I don't see this as buddying.
3. Eh, can't really make any comment about this. They said what they said about me, but we can never completely know their intent.
I'll try to comment some more on acryon's posts later.

So bmws comes in, gives a read like this and then just dips, but my read on wisdom was scum motivated?

[Newbie]

Honestly, I don't know what to say then.

[Newbie]

Or he doesn't want to take a definite stance on anything at the moment because he knows that who he ends up being one of the last few players with is crucial.

But anything I say won't convince you anyway. Why aren't you even voting me if you think it's definitely me?

[Newbie]

Well, I want to hear from BMWS first and see where it goes from there. But at the moment, nothing. acryon is next on my lynch list, so he'd get my vote.

[Newbie]

Don't worry. I'm not hammering you, mathdino. I just can't believe you guys are letting bmws get away with the same thing VD was doing. What's about bmws makes him absolutely town?

[Newbie]

newbie has not so much

It's funny how everyone keeps saying this but no one votes me. Also, I think you're wrong about both me

and

mathdino.

1. 241 is not a response to a scumpartner.
2. The ol 'two sides to this town' (ain't big enough for the both of us) post, scum would not explicitly draw a line and step on the side with both their scumpartners.
3.

387 leads everyone STRAIGHT to Wisdom if wgeurts ended up getting lynched, which was a real possibility.

4. His 'why did you do that?!?!' to Malakittens after she hammered. This is gut. His response was literally EXACTLY how I'd have expected him to respond as town.
5. "I'm remembering [Wisdom] saying that he caught Mala's softclaim during D1 twilight." This must have come from town because if he were scum, he would've just asked Wisdom in the scum PT. He wouldn't have used that wording.
6. Puts Constantine at L-1 but tries to get the town to slow down the lynch until Const checks in.
7. The smoking... anti... gun?

Wait, so if you 3 are the masons, could someone explain the "specific setup-related thing" that happened starting with post 666? I thought that that was mason-related but it doesn't seem to be...

This. Could not have come from scum. He would've just asked scum in the PT.

All I see in 387 is him trying to justify why he doesn't find the Wisdom wagon a good idea.

Also, did it ever occur to you that he could've been asking questions about the mason thing to blend in/get some kind of town cred?

Newbie, let's not forget his entire D3 play:

How does Bork have less information? Pls explain.

If I'm deciding between you and acryon , I'd vote aceyon for now

. I'll go through Both of you though,

trying to find scum without confbias

.

Whoops, fell asleep while looking through acryon's ISO
I'm a bit busy ATM, but got through about 2/3 of it all. I'll just point out a few things right now, and try to make a larger post later.
556: IF he were scum, then it would be really weird for him to directly point out his two scumbuddies, especially at this point in the game.

For me, this leans him null-town.

560: Says that scum-Wisdom leading the wgeurts lynch is highly unlikely. I semi-agreed with this at the time, though it obviosuly turned out to be incorrect.

This brings him back to null.

1221: Thinks Wisdom is misguided town, Constantine is scum, but

with valid reasons

(and both ended up incorrect).
I'll try to post something more substantial later.

He comes in and after being asked who he'd lynch between me and acryon, he'd choose acryon.
Cool.
Then why would he make a case that shows acryon is null?
He went through acryon's ISO, just like I asked him to, and he's clearly having trouble finding any scum after getting rid of his confbias. Scum in his situation SHOULD be writing up a case on why acryon is scum if only in self preservation, and then latching onto bork's argument to get me lynched in LyLo, at which point he endgames Newbie.

Why would he write a case on acryon to get him lynched and end up with me, you, and him when it would be harder to discern the scum between acryon and him when it comes down to it?

[Newbie]

You're just going to have to vote me then because I'm not taking mines off of bmws.

By pulling a VD, I mean he seems to be putting things off as much as possible.

[Newbie]

bmws, acryon

Why do you keep putting off your vote?

[Newbie]

bmws, acryon

Why do you keep putting off your vote?

[Newbie]

Because I'm not ready to lynch anyone until I see people's lynch orders.

Do you see scum motivation in this?

No. I strongly believe you're town.

Also, I think you're wrong about both me and mathdino.

That's nice; articulate it.

Well I'm town obviously, so there's the reason for me. You didn't say how I'm acting scummy, btw.

For mathdino, I just have a strong gut feeling that he's town. Everything from him seems genuine. Yeah, he did end up contradicting himself, but that's because he pulled a confirmation bias.

[Newbie]

So Newbie, I'm guessing your order is then BMWS, acryon, me, you?

Yes.

[Newbie]

mathdino, what I don't understand is why you're not trying to get a vote started on who you think is scummy.

[Newbie]

A. I run the danger of actually lynching someone. Which I don't want to do right now.
B. I want to see how other people are voting first.

Can you point out that contradiction?

But you're about to get lynched, and making a case on someone could sway votes.

mathdino, what I don't understand is why you're not trying to get a vote started on who you think is scummy.

This is the stuff that is kinda irking me from Newbie. Her read on you seems a bit sticky in contrast to all the things she's pointing out as objectionable from you

I think he's town, and I don't want him getting lynched. Scum is in one of bmws or acryon.

[Newbie]

That's exactly what everything is hanging on: input from bmws

Until then everything remains stagnant.

[Newbie]

Well, I'm not changing my vote, so y'all can do whatever.

[Newbie]

BMWS, I want your lynch order. I'll sacrifice myself if it turns out I'm just gonna get lynched in LyLo anyway, and if I agree on the person you're planning to lynch if I die.

Counterwagons can be a sort-of tell on the accuracy of the wagon you're on. Generally it's much easier to form wagons on town than it is on scum.

Newbie was pretty much completely inactive D2

, and Wisdom and Mala kind of hijacked the entire day, so there wasn't much to push when it came to Newbie. I got pretty confident one of Wisdom/Mala was scum and that one of Constantine/Riddleton was scum; Newbie was the tertiary suspect up until the Wisdom can of worms was opened.

And in case you guys didn't notice, the above post is still insanely town, FYI. The scum is in acryon or Newbie.

Um, no I wasn't. Wtf?

[Newbie]

Ok...

[Newbie]

Why would it matter if I made a case against acryon if you guys looked through his ISO and determined he's town from it? You'll just disregard 99% of my case. Also, why would it matter since I'm not changing my vote from BMWS? You guys already came to the conclusion that I'm the scummiest so just place your vote.

[Newbie]

You know what. Screw it.

VOTE: acryon

If he's scum, good, and if he's not, then it's obviously bmws and we're screwed anyway because I'm going to be the next one voted off.

[Newbie]

Well, it's up to bmws at this point to hammer md.

[Newbie]

How about this: bmws and acryon add their votes for me, I get lynched, come up town, and things get narrowed down. I'd rather mathdino end up in lylo over me since mostly everyone is reading him as town. If we don't do something, md is either going to have to self lynch or bmws is going to hammer him, and I'd prefer that to not happen.

[Newbie]

I already said who I think is scum, but it's obvious that person isn't getting lynched. Also, everyone keeps saying how I'm scummy but won't do crap about it, and we just keep going around in circles. Eventually our time will run out and md will end up lynched.

The fact that you don't have your vote on anyone isn't helping. Who do

you

think is scum anyway?

[Newbie]

Okay? So are you going to vote or what?

[Newbie]

Good. We're finally getting somewhere.

And for the last time, I already said who I think is scum, but apparently I'm completely wrong and no one else agrees, so it doesn't matter anyway.

[Newbie]

Also, mathdino already made up his mind that you're not scum, so his vote most likely isn't moving anytime soon.

I did look elsewhere. My vote is on you.

[Newbie]

It's either you or bmws for me. There is nowhere else to look.

[Newbie]

@

mathdino

I decided to look into bmws and stuff added up for me.

[Newbie]

Now that I think about it, acryon probably is scum for how fast he jumped off of the md lynch. I guess he's playing it safe and agreeing with everyone to not look over incriminating for lylo?

[Newbie]

It's freaking amazing how much md is tunneling me though when he asked me not to do the same to bmws.

[Newbie]

I never removed acryon from my lynchpool, though?

[Newbie]

I think it's crazy that you supposedly find nothing scummy about acryon or bmws at all.

[Newbie]

acryon, if I'm lynched, who are you voting for in lylo? So basically, who's more scummy out of bmws and mathdino to you?

[Newbie]

Nothing at all, even after looking through both of their isos'?

But I'm scummy for making a case against Wisdom (even though TTH did as well and Wisdom was

scum

), for being one of the last to vote VD (when neither acryon or bmws voted for him. acryon even tried swerving the lynch.), and for making a case against bmws since my points were "shitty" repeats of everything you basically did (even though the way bmws went about everything was completely differently from you.).

Just lol. Good luck in lylo. inb4 you magically find something scummy in acryon or bmws' isos' during lylo. The fact that you're tunneling me so hard makes me think you're either overconfident town, or you probably are scum.

[Newbie]

Like why have you been ignoring the fuck out of my arguments then coming out with the same shit as if you thought of it

I wasn't ignoring your arguments. I just didn't know he had no scummy reads on the other two

at all

.

[Newbie]

Double negative. Unfortunately I'm not speaking a Romantic language and "I don't find NOTHING scummy" means "I do find some things scummy" in English.

Interesting reaction though.

So what are some things you find scummy about bmws and acryon?

[Newbie]

VOTE: mathdino

[Newbie]

VOTE: mathdino

I'm glad you branched out, but how did you get there from here:

It's either you or bmws for me. There is nowhere else to look.

This whole page.

[Newbie]

The thing is though, why would mathdino go after me when he was declaring me town at the very beginning after the wgeurts/Constantine mod kill? He could've kept it that way and went after an easier target. It just doesn't add up.

UNVOTE:

[Newbie]

VOTE: acryon

[Newbie]

I know it's annoying to be back where we started, but it wouldn't make sense for mathdino to draw things out like this if he was mafia. It has to be one of acryon or bmws. I'm probably getting lynched anyway so good luck to whoever ends up in lylo.

[Newbie]

So what you're telling me is you misinterpreted a statement I said, asked me a legitimate question, and then voted me based on 'this whole page', in which I made a statement you misinterpreted.

AFTER you acknowledge said misinterpretation.

What the actual fuck?

I realized I misinterpreted you. It's why I unfuckingvoted you + the reason I gave.

And fuck it.

VOTE: bmws

You think I'm scummy anyway, and bmws is probably going to hammer me unlike he did with you since he knows you're most likely going to vote acryon during lylo.

I'm not changing my vote or giving a damn case on acryon. Since you think bmws certainly isn't scum,

you

can give a case on acryon.

[Newbie]

like newbie you're acting like a total dipshit and i see no trajectory

why is that

K. And I think you're being bullheaded on the mathdino lynch.

And I'm not taking "nobody agrees with me so it doesn't matter what I say" as an answer

nobody agrees with you because you're not fucking saying anything interesting

What exactly do you want me to do? He shot down my case on bmws, and even when I unvoted because he asked me to trust him on it, he

still

thinks I'm scum.

[Newbie]

K. And I think you're being bullheaded on the mathdino lynch.

MAYBE YOU COULD FUCKING ENGAGE ME ON WHY YOU THINK THAT IS

I guess you missed these two posts or you just didn't read them.

The thing is though, why would mathdino go after me when he was declaring me town at the very beginning after the wgeurts/Constantine mod kill? He could've kept it that way and went after an easier target. It just doesn't add up.

UNVOTE:

I know it's annoying to be back where we started, but it wouldn't make sense for mathdino to draw things out like this if he was mafia. It has to be one of acryon or bmws. I'm probably getting lynched anyway so good luck to whoever ends up in lylo.

On acryon, at first glance I thought his backing off of me after that convo was a bit weird at which point I started WIFOMing it to myself, but like I said before, it makes sense with him being town. I didn't really want anything in particular.

Honestly, I've got nothing more to say. I've repeatedly presented BMWS towncases, I toldja why acryon's town based on D3/4, and the only thing Newbie's got going for her is the TTH tell.

acryon's less than willing to discuss a plan for tomorrow and idk what Newbie's doing.

If you've got any questions, I'm open.

K. So why does it matter if I keep my vote on bmws or not if you think I'm scum?

[Newbie]

The thing is though, why would mathdino go after me when he was declaring me town at the very beginning after the wgeurts/Constantine mod kill? He could've kept it that way and went after an easier target. It just doesn't add up.

UNVOTE:

This is kinda what I already said earlier, but okay.

And this is exactly what I mean. If I make a case against acryon, you're just going to pick at it and see scummy motivations.

Like if you're willing to suddenly go after him for something as tenuous as that, you are really out of place calling me bullheaded for suspecting him

so talk to me why you

weren't

before that

I already said why a while back. His actions just came off genuine and the fact that he put in work that I don't think scum would do.

[Newbie]

Okay well. I mean, what do you want me to do, lol? It's kind of obnoxious that you're mad that I can't convince you to unvote mathdino.

I think the type of effort he put in set him apart from VD and Wisdom. Basically, I don't think the way he came to his conclusions were scum-motivated.

[Newbie]

@Newbie: Effort is not alignment indicative.

Yeah, but I guess you could say that about a lot of things.

Can you please at least attempt to go into detail?

Okay. Well, first off, when he suspected someone, his reasons had substance and weren't completely

unreasonable

. What really struck me was the effort he put into finding riddleton's meta. Also, when it come to the wgeurts mason fishing ordeal, I can see why he reacted the way he did with the setup of the game. When he showed examples of wgeurts role fishing from a later game, I think the point was to say that it is after all possible for wgeurts to do something like that and prove his point was totally unfounded.

The fact that he's town and was wrong a lot at the same time isn't impossible. It happened to me a lot as town. It's just that town tends to do really scummy things that other townies catch on to and can't tell whether it's scum or town motivated.

Although, his case against me is weird where it involves bmws. He's probably just overconfident about bmws, though.

[Newbie]

1. 241 is not a response to a scumpartner.
2. The ol 'two sides to this town' (ain't big enough for the both of us) post, scum would not explicitly draw a line and step on the side with both their scumpartners.
3. 387 leads everyone STRAIGHT to Wisdom if wgeurts ended up getting lynched, which was a real possibility.
4. His 'why did you do that?!?!' to Malakittens after she hammered. This is gut. His response was literally EXACTLY how I'd have expected him to respond as town.
5. "I'm remembering [Wisdom] saying that he caught Mala's softclaim during D1 twilight." This must have come from town because if he were scum, he would've just asked Wisdom in the scum PT. He wouldn't have used that wording.
6. Puts Constantine at L-1 but tries to get the town to slow down the lynch until Const checks in.
7. The smoking... anti... gun?

Wait, so if you 3 are the masons, could someone explain the "specific setup-related thing" that happened starting with post 666? I thought that that was mason-related but it doesn't seem to be...

This. Could not have come from scum. He would've just asked scum in the PT.

1. How is what he's doing right there any different from this? And one of them is scum.

2. You have a point, but at the same time, he didn't even vote for Wisdom when it came down to it, and it was pretty much obvious that wgeurts was town after VD's death.

3. Again, that's a good point, but he didn't even vote for Wisdom.

4. This is the weakest argument in this post. Why not use the chance to look like you're doing something?

5. The same thing. Why couldn't it all just be a show? Tbqh, Constantine probably would've gotten voted up anyway.

6. Once again, it could just be a show.

[Newbie]

No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this

shows a weak

link

woth Newbie

, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.

I just realised, you're mason fishing, aren't you? Interactive tells are very different in a mason game.

Yeah, this is enough for me to UNVOTE: Victor

VOTE: wgeurts

I think wgeurts' use of that word set the whole thing off.

[Newbie]

Right, but it's not like wgeurts would elaborate that he was masonfishing. He probably felt that last part was fluff since I wouldn't flip scum.

[Newbie]

I think mathdino was working with the idea that wgeurts was scum and wgeurts knew what I would flip.

[Newbie]

I'm done for tonight. I just really don't think mathdino is scum.

[Newbie]

Newbie

: Do you want me to respond to your 2248 personally, or would you rather not have me in this?(just making sure, in case you want an "outside perspective" of me )

Go ahead.

I'm not planning on responding to 2248, so you can go ahead if you feel like it.

So you want me to unvote bmws, but you won't engage me on it? K. Now I understand how bork felt.

[Newbie]

Good job, acryon. I was so hellbent on bmws.

[Newbie]

Tbh, this was pretty fun with a pretty good group.