NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

AxleGreaser
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Post Post #1600  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:27 pm

In post 1598, Scripten wrote:
In post 1593, AxleGreaser wrote:1250 is a quote, in the text of the question that I colour coded the same i made a typo and left out "on"

Well I kind of did, or rather guessed, when I looked recently I did not find a post that is clear enough about him backing off.
Also as that *only* backs of an interpretation of a set of three posts that should not from TSO claimed his case was have changed his whole read.

As I said I found the thread weird, and not helped by the number of posts replying without quoting or explicitly referring to what has a point where.


...

What?


Here is post you made
In post 1250, Scripten wrote:
Nero Cain wrote:Whats weird about it? Seems like it would be basic logic.


I guess I just don't see the link between the size of the scumteam and whether or not the game has multiple scumteams. (Or are we including SKs in that definition?) Or are there other aspects I'm missing?

Also, time to engage some new peeps.

Aeronaut: You said you'd be back from VL/A yesterday. Any news on that front? I would like to see your thoughts on the various back-and-forths that have been coming around.

AxelGreaser: Do you find TSO backing off on his wagon to be alignment-indicative. If so, which way do you see it moving? Also, hypothetical question. Let's say you had to start a wagon on a player who's not got any votes on them currently. Who would you choose and why?

Boonskiies: You still feeling that Cho vote? I'd like to see you put your vote to use or at least push the person you're voting for. Frankly, I'd like to see Cho actually play the game, fwiw.


The pink words are words you actually said.

When i quoted them I actually quoted them put them in pink, then when referring to the m I copied them but messed up an dleft out the word on.
That is I typographical error

I never claimed you said things you didnt. I quoted you.

please stop jumping at shadows.

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Post Post #1601  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:38 pm

In post 1600, AxleGreaser wrote:The pink words are words you actually said.

When i quoted them I actually quoted them put them in pink, then when referring to the m I copied them but messed up an dleft out the word on.
That is I typographical error

I never claimed you said things you didnt. I quoted you.

please stop jumping at shadows.


Yes. He backed off on the wagon he was pushing against Aneninen. I asked you to tell me what you thought of it. I'm still not seeing the disconnect here.

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Post Post #1602  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:48 pm

EBWOP prose/prise
In post 1599, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1589, Garmr wrote:I have explained my reasons even through it started with a misunderstanding.


and yes the fact that you have reasons in the thread is the reason I started by trying to prise TSOs reasons out of him.


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Post Post #1603  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:50 pm

In post 1601, Scripten wrote:
In post 1600, AxleGreaser wrote:The pink words are words you actually said.

When i quoted them I actually quoted them put them in pink, then when referring to the m I copied them but messed up an dleft out the word on.
That is I typographical error

I never claimed you said things you didnt. I quoted you.

please stop jumping at shadows.


Yes. He backed off on the wagon he was pushing against Aneninen. I asked you to tell me what you thought of it. I'm still not seeing the disconnect here.


I think he has backed of one reason, backed off one scummy thing he said Aneninen did.
previously he said there were plenty, (and now has backed off one)
His vote is still there.

What I think of it is little has changed.

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Post Post #1604  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:10 am

In post 1603, AxleGreaser wrote:What I think of it is little has changed.


specifically

TSO is still voting Aneneinen for plenty-1 scummy things, and seems highly reluctant to tell me what they are.

Kind makes me wonder if all the claimed plenty of reasons will be as flaky as the first one.

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Post Post #1605  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:27 am

In post 1074, T S O wrote:Don't get me wrong, though, he's done plenty of scummy shit.


Spoiler: Here is one of the plenty that seemingly is not scummy after all
In post 1229, T S O wrote:
In post 223, Aneninen wrote:Aaaaand fck the shyt, I had been nearly finished with my catchup when I misclicked and it's gone.
Fortunately, there are not too many things to post about.
Csareo is being Csareo right on Page2. And he goes on like that which is a null and basicly, most of the posts are related to him. In the game I linked he did the very same.
That post-pair from Nero, calling Csareo not-town and town in his next post is a WTF.
Also, need we care about those Day1/2 stuffid claims?

Unfortunately, I have no real reads yet. Mostly because of Csareo, who has been drawing away the focus of the game.
However,
@Those who're scumreading them: what's the case against TSO? What's the case against Toby? These things might be based upon real content but I'm simply too tired to distill the very little real content out of the Csareo–respond-to-Csareo–Csareo–another-respond–Csareo... rondo.

In post 241, Aneninen wrote:
In post 231, TobyLoby wrote:Anen: I mean, I'm reading what you're saying as you having seen Csareo play similarly before and he was town, but you're also calling his play here a null.


Having thought about this question (I woke up about an hour ago) I must admit, my null-read is based upon the assumption that a scum!Csareo wouldn't have a very different gameplay. (I didn't find any games which he was surely scum in.) However, in Mini#1601 (before replaced into his slot on Day1) he had done more vote and read-flipping than here. We must remember this, though this may be a sing of a kind of improvement of his gameplay.

@Thor. I re-checked TOS. He should know Csareo's gameplay well – yet he's putting too much effort into his conversation with him. Also, TSO had voted for "Caesar" and our mod posted that his vote wouldn't be counted. TSO hasn't correct his vote since then (nor did another vote), as far as I can see. These things are disturbing.

In post 250, Aneninen wrote:TSO knows how terrible Csareo is on Day1 and he also knows that he was town in that game. I simply don't understand why TSO's maintaining a long interaction with Csareo – he must have known that by getting involved in that would increase the "noise" in the thread. It's definitely anti-town and – in my opinion – scummy too.
There's something else which is merely an intuition. What if both of them are scum(s) and their Day1 is purely intentional?


Tier, do you think this is a natural progression of reads?

This is I think a statement that the three posts cited are not scummy, although you never excplicitly said they were scummy, just not a "natural progression of reads".
In post 1240, T S O wrote:Ugh, I guess you've maybe got a point there.


Assuming you have backed off that reason.

@Where are the other plenty of reasons you are voting him?

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Post Post #1606  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:57 am

Having caught up, I still don't see Pere as town.

I was townreading Aneninen until he voted TSO, now I'm not so sure.
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Post Post #1607  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:20 am

Dear PereV,

It seems the entirety of your scumread on Thor revolves around setup speculation. I myself am undecided on him. Frankly I think too much of this game revolves around Thor. Can you link to posts of his, other than setup spec, that demonstrates scum mentality?
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Post Post #1608  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:03 am

In post 1606, Muffin wrote:Having caught up, I still don't see Pere as town.

I was townreading Aneninen until he voted TSO, now I'm not so sure.


Well if you think Aneninen is scum for voting the guy voting him, when Aneninen is certain of his own alignment.

It seems to me you you ought have scum read on me, unless I mistake your post.

If so wanna talk about it?

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Post Post #1609  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:13 am

In post 1608, AxleGreaser wrote:It seems to me you you ought have scum read on me, unless I mistake your post.
What would give you that idea?

If so wanna talk about it?
Not really.
One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.

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Post Post #1610  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:28 am

In post 1609, Muffin wrote:
In post 1608, AxleGreaser wrote:It seems to me you you ought have scum read on me, unless I mistake your post.
What would give you that idea?

You didnt mention that it was the way that Aneninen voted for TSO or the reason just the fact that he had.

I will go have read of Aneninens ISO, leading up to the TSO vote.
and see what i see.
If so wanna talk about it?
Not really.

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Post Post #1611  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:38 am

In post 1610, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1609, Muffin wrote:
In post 1608, AxleGreaser wrote:It seems to me you you ought have scum read on me, unless I mistake your post.
What would give you that idea?

You didnt mention that it was the way that Aneninen voted for TSO or the reason just the fact that he had.

I will go have read of Aneninens ISO, leading up to the TSO vote.
and see what i see.
If so wanna talk about it?
Not really.



Ok so maybe that wasn't a good idea.

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Post Post #1612  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:11 am

Catching-up. @TSO. As for Hephaestus, ISO him! Naked vote for Nero. Half-hearted focusing on me. Null-ing PerV (not unsorted/unsure, NULL). Naked vote for me. Naked unvote from me. And promises, promises that he will post his reads. Need I say more?

It's hard to follow the whole Thor/PeregrineV interaction because of its sheer size. Recently I've started to be less confident about my scumread on PeregrineV but that might be only my fault. Thor may be wrong about his case but I still don't think he's scum. In my opinion he got votes because most of us are tired of reading his permanent fight with PeregrineV.


Flubber may be town. Eg. his seems to be genuine (and most of the 15xx posts too). Care to write more about and ?

@Muffin. What was your problem with my TSO vote?

@Garmr. What sort of new wagon would you start? You mentioned four names, as far as I can see. Why those? Why not eg. Hephaestus? Yet you voted for Axle later. Do you think it's a good wagon now? As a matter of fact...

In post 1595, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1589, Garmr wrote:What I find wrong is how your attacking the Aneninen, wagon and trying to disassemble it with out once saying Aneninen, is town.

And what is wrong with that?
If Aneninen is scum then other scum may have decide to bus him. There is no requirement for me to believe Anenne is scum to have trouble with understanding the veracity of the cases against him.
wow what OMGUS.


Wait-oh.
WHUT?
In this case your whole gameplay makes no sense as a town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: AxleGreaser

To tell the truth, I've had an intuition that he had been protecting me because of trying to get towncredits in case of my mislynch. I've never mentioned it, I know, because I still think that I can do more in this situation by posting less. As the game went on my intuition got stronger and stronger But this post was the cherry on the pie. It's not an intuition any more.
R.I.P. Stephen Hawking

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Post Post #1613  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:37 am

In post 1612, Aneninen wrote:Wait-oh.
WHUT?
In this case your whole gameplay makes no sense as a town.


Rubbish.

Oh no
Not you too,

please read what I actually said.

How do I know you are town. Hmmm?

I can easily suspect TSO's reasons for voting you without knowing or even having strong views of your alignment.
people are attemtping to claim I must prove you are town to believe TSO is scum, that is balderdash.


If you are scum and he is bussing, his reasons are likely to be crap.
If you are town and he is scum then he is setting you up as what he thought was an easy mislynch, his reasons are likely to be crap.

In either case if I find he has been prosecuting a case against you without really thinking about it and without actual reasons to call you scum, then he is scummy.

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Post Post #1614  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:43 am

In post 1595, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1589, Garmr wrote:What I find wrong is how your attacking the Aneninen, wagon and trying to disassemble it with out once saying Aneninen, is town.


And what is wrong with that?

If Aneninen is scum then other scum may have decide to bus him. There is no requirement for me to believe Anenne is scum to have trouble with understanding the veracity of the cases against him.

wow what OMGUS.

True if he is scum other scum may bust him but you have failed to even mention your thoughts on Annenne while pushing the fact constantly he may be town like post 442# post 996# while post 1062 attacks tso for why those post can't come from a town annienen. But yet you yourself don't mention what alignment he may be or thoughts on him why?

All I am doing is flagging that I also want to examine your reasons.

and nope, I very purposefully did not do the leg work of examining those games ,that I pointed out to you,
but i do want to be sure that your reasons for voting him, when I examine them, have to make sense in light of that game.

wtf your saying you basically saying you were interested in annienens wagon so You were trying to get me to do your meta reads for you with out EVEN bothering to do some yourself to make sure I wasn't misrepresenting him. That's scummy as fuck epically in a multi scum game (if it is multiscum). It shows you don't want to risk your neck in the night phase.

In post 1596, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1589, Garmr wrote:I think you did this subconsciously as he is either your scum buddy or your trying to buddy him


This is bullshit. My interaction with you,
where I made sure I made simple post (no excuse not to read it)
here is the post.
In post 688, AxleGreaser wrote:@GARMR

A simple question.
have you read any of Aneninen's previous games?

While the earliest games are the oldest they do show best where his approach to play comes from. newbie 1513.


not sure everyone will notice but that is clearly a deliberate post.

it in no way defends Aneninen, but it does make sure ignorance is not a defence.

The last sentence is even ahelpful suggstion that the best way to come to an accurate read is to examine that old game, as it shows IMO most clearly where his play has evolved from.

That was about the towniest post I made in the whole game.

You been passively defending annienen from me and tso with out saying a read all game. You can't deny that. Btw that's not a Towny post for the reasons above it's and if that's your towniest post you need to be hung today.

In post 1599, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1589, Garmr wrote:I have explained my reasons even through it started with a misunderstanding.


and yes the fact that you have reasons in the thread is the reason I started by trying to prose TSOs reasons out of him.

I don't know what will happen when I discuss your reasons with you, it may be that they appear to make sense to you.
I do know not all your previous reasons are current.
Some time ago, you said
"I don't like the way Aneninen handled the way I pushed on boonskies by trying to disprove my points yet being unable to, ending up saying I don't agree with you. It just felt like a failed chainsaw attempt for boon."

as you subsequently unvoted boon, I believe you must no longer believe it was a failed chainsaw.

Also people dont 'disprove' cases they present you reasoning that you either accept or reject. Thor has for instance failed to provide you sufficient reasons to vote PereV, whom I believe you strongly town read.

So could you identify which posts hold your current reasoning that Aneninen is scum.

Like i said my scum read wasn't as strong and has fallen to null scum but this makes me think you haven't read my 1046 spoiler which gives a giant ass case on Annes 1003 and the follow up response to it 1050. I know all my previous aren't current so I'm having more and more doubt about him being scum.

I rarely say this and when I do the persons always been scum you have triggered that feeling.

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Post Post #1615  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:47 am

In post 1612, Aneninen wrote:To tell the truth, I've had an intuition that he had been protecting me because of trying to get towncredits in case of my mislynch.

I am not protecting you.

Indeed what you claim doesn't make sense is me not protecting you by claiming you are town.

I have in the thread only claimed I find TSO reasons suspect.

if you actually got lynched or vigged and flipped town, I get no "credit" for guessing you were town, because as you just observed I never said you were town....

I will get towny credit if TSO flips scum.

please try and make your theories fit the facts.

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Post Post #1616  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:46 am

@^: TSO is not likely to flip, much less so to flip Scum.

ANYWAY.

I REALLY WANT A VOTECOUNT OMG

Players who are Town: GrayFoxxx, Garmr, TSO, Tier
Players who are not Town: Thor, Fonz
Players who may be Town: Cho, dave, Flubbernugget, Pere, Scripten
Players who may not be Town: Aeronaut, Axle, Anen, Muffin, Nero
Players who may or may not be Town: Boonskiies, Egg, hephaestus, Izariael

If you'd like an explanation of one of these and I haven't already given it, you're welcome to ask.
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Post Post #1617  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:54 am

In post 1616, goodmorning wrote:@^: TSO is not likely to flip, much less so to flip Scum.

ANYWAY.

I REALLY WANT A VOTECOUNT OMG

Players who are Town: GrayFoxxx, Garmr, TSO, Tier
Players who are not Town: Thor, Fonz
Players who may be Town: Cho, dave, Flubbernugget, Pere, Scripten
Players who may not be Town: Aeronaut, Axle, Anen, Muffin, Nero
Players who may or may not be Town: Boonskiies, Egg, hephaestus, Izariael

If you'd like an explanation of one of these and I haven't already given it, you're welcome to ask.

I got a question.
Would you like to jump on the axle wagon with me?

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Post Post #1618  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:59 am

In post lols, AxleGreaser wrote:Oh no garmr caught me what do I do.

:P

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Post Post #1619  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:20 am

I'd much rather be on a Thor or Fonz wagon, but there is a distinct possibility.
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Post Post #1620  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:41 am

In post 1582, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1460, The Fonz wrote:PV: NO! You still haven't answered the question of why you assumed insider knowledge rather than error.

"Most games this big have multiscum. So it's safe to assume it, therefore we can't rule out two players both being scum even if their interactions appear unlikely from teammates."

Give me literally ANY possible Thor thought process that makes even close to as much sense as the above and is compatible with your allegations.


I have feeling that knife cuts both ways.
Thor didn't seriously entertain the idea that PereV, might just believe that multiball was not likely and hence assuming it was a TMI thing. At least enough to have towny poke to see what happens.


I don't think it does. I agree that it is initially possible PV-town, based on a belief that '21 players' was in no way a reason to believe multiball likely, then thought 'Well what else could make him assume that? Insider knowledge!' That's derpy, but possible. Thor's case, although he was already voting PV for other reasons, is that Nero was the first person to make an assumption about multiball, and PV was being inconsistent. Note also that the conditionality in PV's post is inconsistent: He doesn't suspect Thor if it's not multiball. This means he's accepting the possibility of Thor being town making a bad assumption, in the non-multiball case. Since town wouldn't have insider knowledge either way, his logic requires him to accept the possibility of Thor being a townie making a bad assumption even if it IS multiball. So it requires a combo of illogic and ignoring things to fit the case you want to make. I don't see a similar flaw in Thor's case. PV's double standard is a double standard regardless of multiball status. Note also that Thor describes the Thor suspicion as 'a smokescreen for doing nothing.'

I don't think Thor's the type to back off when he thinks he has scum in his sights. This means I think the counterwagon on him is bad. If PV's town, high likelihood Flubber is scum trying to get townie points for opposing a mislynch, and use it to subsequently persecute people on the wagon. That seems to me a fairly common scum replacement strat. Not sure I see that from a PV buddy though - for the same reasons, "Replace in and hardcore chainsaw your buddy's attacker" is a pretty rare and bold scum move.

I don't like the Anen wagon either.

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Post Post #1621  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:48 am

Neednt we find a better wagon than Thor?
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Post Post #1622  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:56 am

In post 1620, The Fonz wrote:I don't think Thor's the type to back off when he thinks he has scum in his sights. This means I think the counterwagon on him is bad. If PV's town, high likelihood Flubber is scum trying to get townie points for opposing a mislynch, and use it to subsequently persecute people on the wagon. That seems to me a fairly common scum replacement strat. Not sure I see that from a PV buddy though - for the same reasons, "Replace in and hardcore chainsaw your buddy's attacker" is a pretty rare and bold scum move.


I don't think Flubbernugget is scum. At least, I'm not getting scum vibes from him. He's working pretty hard on Thor, and not doing a fantastic job of it, true. But his viewpoint feels organic to me, mostly in terms of tone and the way he is pushing and retracting his points. I mean, compare and contrast his play with PereV's, and you can probably see where I'm coming from with my vote.

Aneninen: I think we have a pretty good wagon on PereV. Not sure how happy I am with either the wagon on you or Axle, but eh.

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Post Post #1623  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:09 am

In post 1612, Aneninen wrote:@Muffin. What was your problem with my TSO vote?

I didn't like the way you seemingly developed a scumread on TSO because he was aggro on you.
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Post Post #1624  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:57 am

In post 1616, goodmorning wrote:@^: TSO is not likely to flip, much less so to flip Scum.

ANYWAY.

I REALLY WANT A VOTECOUNT OMG

Players who are Town: GrayFoxxx, Garmr, TSO, Tier
Players who are not Town: Thor, Fonz
Players who may be Town: Cho, dave, Flubbernugget, Pere, Scripten
Players who may not be Town: Aeronaut, Axle, Anen, Muffin, Nero
Players who may or may not be Town: Boonskiies, Egg, hephaestus, Izariael

If you'd like an explanation of one of these and I haven't already given it, you're welcome to ask.


Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

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