Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[reinoe]

MOD STUFF

Woah!!! Friends with benefits.

VOTE COUNT!!!!

Wisdom-TellTaleHeart, wgeurts (L-5)
DukeC-
wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, Newbie, mathdino, blindmewithscience, Wisdom (L-2)
The Undertaker-
Newbie-
Malakittens-
SilverWolf-
Not_Mafia-
TellTaleHeart-
VictorDeAngelo-acryon, Silverwolf (L-5)
Mathdino-Wisdom (L-6)
blindmewithscience-
acryon-malakittens (L-6)

not voting-FinnLaw, The Undertaker, Not_Mafia,

With 13 Alive it's 7 to lynch.
Deadline=(expired on 2014-10-29 07:00:00)

VictorDeAngelo is on indefinite/unspecified V/LA
acryon is on V/LA until the morning of October 20, 2014
Not_Mafia is V/LA until 10/23/2014

After the horrible disaster at the Guardians Of The Galaxy you all decide to just tour the ship and explore. That should be impossible to sabotage right? Right!!!!!!

[SilverWolf]

It slightly troubled me when Silver defended me in 238 but I didn't give it much thought. You might actually have a point about her.

Actually my 238 was in response to a question from mathdino and wasn't so much a defense of you but rather some reasons I didn't agree with TTH's scumread of you. However, with the above comment, I've changed my mind. You appear to be pushing wgeurts who is obviously newbtown VT as scum and you continue to do so regardless of how many times he answers for himself, and you are especially pushy about it whenever the pressure seems to come off him. You remind me of scum trying to push the easiest mislynch.

The above comment by you is blatantly sheeping a bad case on me by mathdino. His whole post was crap and not worth a response. He's making up reasons to find me scummy and he can take his fabricated case on me and shove it where the sun don't shine. The fact that the only thing you had to say about it was the above extremely weak comment, reminds me of scum blending in, being wishy-washy, and not wanting to commit to any stance that might come back to bite them later in the game.

VOTE: Wisdom

[SilverWolf]

You know, the funny thing about this is by post 279 I started to rethink my read on wgeurts and saw this as frustrated town again.

BUT THEN HE PUSHES MASON CLAIM AGAIN.

wgeurts, if you're town, and I don't think you are, think about this: a mason is basically an innocent child. Now some setups let inno childs wait and PM the mod when they want to be confirmed town, instead of confirmed on D0.
Which innocent child do you think is more powerful?

That is why we don't ask masons to claim until they can actually use this info for their benefit.

Do you honestly think scum would be so blatant about mason pushing? I can't believe even newbscum would do this.

@wgeurts, if Mason's claim now, they would be picked off by scum because scum don't want conftowns around who would not be lynched, because as the number of people in the game narrows, they have a harder time hiding among the crowd and would be easier to find.

[FinnLaw]

FinnLaw

, you probably didn't notice because I put it in the middle of a line, but I asked what your other reads were, if any.

Wgeurt

- First with Wgeurt I don't know what to think. As I have mentioned before he has done a few suspicious things, which when looking at it as if it was another game I question myself would I be saying that looks like a good read? But I had a gut feeling that he was just frustrated town and this is the explanation for some of his comments. But then he goes for a second time with the mason claim. Once ok, it seemed like he was led into that situation the first time anyway but a second time, really!! So right now I don't know where I stand on him.

I think it's likely that there was scum on the Wgeurt wagon. The wagon consisted of VDA, Newbie, Mathdino, Blindmewithscience and Wisdom.

Blindmewithscience

- Looking at Blindmewithscience he hasn't posted too much. His first two posts provide nothing in the way of arguments or opinions but I do like his other two posts. Is he simply busy or lurking?

In regards to his posts, it was Blind that pointed out the incontinences in Wgeurt's posts about meta which I liked. It was a good catch and seems like he's scum hunting here with him analysing Wgeurt's posts and catching him out. I also liked his last post, he wanted a defence from Wgeurt so it would help him in deciding whether Wgeurt is the right lynch or not. I like this, he's not jumping to conclusions, he wants to be certain he's right before lynching which to me seems town. So while he's posted little, I like his posts which actually count. So I'm leaning town on him.

Wisdom

- With Wisdom, I'm probably leaning slightly scum. I just disagree with some of the arguments he is making about Wgeurt and I do feel Wgeurt can't win in Wisdoms eyes over the self-vote situation. I do feel it's a catch 22, and I just don't think this is helpfully for town. (I understand Wisdom disagrees with the catch 22 but I do feel it's a catch 22.)

What is bugging me is that I have Wisdom leaning slightly town and just confused with Wgeurt he could be scum but then I don't think the two of them would be arguing like this if they were scum buddies. So if any which one is it? Probably vote soon but not just yet, want to be more comfortable with my decision.

Mathdino

- Leaning town with Mathdino, I think he has been the main talker of the group providing arguments and discussion. He has been scum hunting and trying to gain information. I generally agree with most of the reasons about why he finds Wgeurt scummy but it was my gut feeling that Wgeurt is frustrated town then has kept me torn. One thing I didn't agree with was the initial mason discussion. Math thought Wgeurt was mason fishing, I disagreed with this as I simply saw it as Wgeurt seeing Math and Newbie as scum buddies not masons. I felt Math made a bigger deal of the mason stuff and led Wgeurt into the situation. But then Wgeurt goes and makes a second comment about masons claiming. So was Math right all along?

VDA

- I didn't see anything wrong with someone asking Newbie for meta even if they weren't asking other people. So I thought it was a little odd from VDA but I don't know if it was really anything to look into. But honestly I was a little confused as to who was saying what over the meta stuff. Null right now, generally get a good feel from VDA but will see more when he's done on VLA.

For newbie, haven't really looked at her enough yet need to read up.

As for players outside the wagon null on Not_Mafia, Mala and Acryon and need to look at Silverwolf.

With Acryon there was a issue for some players with Acryon answering a question for someone else. Personally I don't find this suspicious generally. I think I do that sometimes, I just see it as him offering his opinion on the matter which he is entitled to but I did understand Mala's explanation of why she didn't like it in #158.

Long post sorry and don't think I forget to mention anyone but sorry if I did.

[SilverWolf]

I can recall times I self voted in frustration as town, but to be honest this doesn't feel the same. Particularly considering how early it is (in fact one slot still hasn't posted yet) so it's pretty anti-town to be pushing towards the end of the day with your own lynch. Still happy with my vote on Wgeurts.

Also, wegeurts, there is only 4 votes out of 7 on you without your self-vote. So help me figure out who the scum is on your wagon if you are town?

wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, Newbie, mathdino, blindmewithscience (L-3)

Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure mathdino is town. Newbie leans town to me so far. So, is it VDA or blindmewithscience do you think and why?

Or is wagon analysis bad right now in the game without a flip?

Yeah, wagon analyse is generally useless preflip. And if your interested in wagon analysis why not wait for more people to join the wagon? Wouldn't this have been the point where opportunistic scum would have been jumping on?

Scum could of been on the wagon at any point due the easy mislynch that Wgeurts has made himself out to be. But opportunistic scum jumping on the wagon when pressure seems to be easing on Wgeurts some or keeping the pressure on Wgeurts to make sure it goes through, yep I can see that and I noticed it actually happened with Wisdom's vote.

[SilverWolf]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

I disagree with this vote and reasoning behind it. I see nothing wrong with Wgeurts unvoting himself after several people asked him to do so. I don't think this is more likely to come from scum vs town.

[TellTaleHeart]

Sorry for double post, but I don't think this is Catch 22. It's the pitfall of using AtE in games with (I presume) more logical players. wgeurts lost credibility the moment he self-voted, as does anyone outside of RVS (and some would say inside), so in this case I'm gonna have to defer to Wisdom's reasoning here: frustrated town is usually too frustrated to just go ahead and listen to everyone.

To me, this seems to be based on an oversimplification of how emotions work in general. They can be fleeting or long lasting (life has taught me this). To flippantly say "the only emotions are the ones that don't fade" doesn't even sound remotely right. There's such a thing as doing rash things in the heat of the moment and, no offense to wgeurts, but he comes off as the kind of guy that would do something like that.

[Newbie]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.

unvote

vote: Wisdom

[SilverWolf]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.

unvote

vote: Wisdom

This is a good point and it is worth pointing out that as soon as wgeurts said Wisdom may be scum pushing his wagon from the sidelines and not backing it up with a vote, he immediately votes wgeurts on the faulty reasoning that he unvoted himself even though he was asked to do so by several and asked to give the reads he did on his wagon. This was a no-win situation for wgeurts. Something I can see scum pushing.

[Newbie]

Wisdom

- With Wisdom,

I'm probably leaning slightly scum.

I just disagree with some of the arguments he is making about Wgeurt and I do feel Wgeurt can't win in Wisdoms eyes over the self-vote situation. I do feel it's a catch 22, and I just don't think this is helpfully for town. (I understand Wisdom disagrees with the catch 22 but I do feel it's a catch 22.)

What is bugging me is that

I have Wisdom leaning slightly town

and just confused with Wgeurt he could be scum but then I don't think the two of them would be arguing like this if they were scum buddies. So if any which one is it? Probably vote soon but not just yet, want to be more comfortable with my decision.

What? Which is it?

[blindmewithscience]

Do you honestly think scum would be so blatant about mason pushing? I can't believe even newbscum would do this.

@wgeurts, if Mason's claim now, they would be picked off by scum because scum don't want conftowns around who would not be lynched, because as the number of people in the game narrows, they have a harder time hiding among the crowd and would be easier to find.

In general, I can see where the wgeurts being furstrated town is coming from, and I'm agreeing with the whole Catch-22 situation that has been pointed out by Finn. But there's everything else that he's done, including the mason fishing. And so with regards to the first part of this, mafia are unpredictable. We can't say what they will or won't do. But we can always ask wgeurts.

@wgeurts: Please give your reasoning for your repeated, explicit masonfishing. Also, could you explain the inconsistencies shown before?

Now, I really don't like this.

It slightly troubled me when Silver defended me in 238 but I didn't give it much thought. You might actually have a point about her.

[...]

The above comment by you is blatantly sheeping a bad case on me by mathdino. His whole post was crap and not worth a response. He's making up reasons to find me scummy and he can take his fabricated case on me and shove it where the sun don't shine. The fact that the only thing you had to say about it was the above extremely weak comment, reminds me of scum blending in, being wishy-washy, and not wanting to commit to any stance that might come back to bite them later in the game.

Note the enormous bashing of mathdino's suspicion. While I agree that it's a relatively weak argument, this incredibly charged response was a big overreaction IMO. At the end the day, I think all he was asking for was more, actual contributions, and you're attacking him for pointing out that you haven't posted anything of value. I'm not quite sure how much this affects my opinions of you, Silver.

But also, I like the point that Silver made about Wisdom only voted after wgeurts' argument. Again, not sure how much this affects my opinion of Silver, but the Wisdom case is getting stronger.

[blindmewithscience]

Whoops, catch 22 was first pointed out by TTH. Just thought that I'd correct that for posterity.

[Mathdino]

You [Wisdom] appear to be pushing wgeurts who is obviously newbtown VT as scum and you continue to do so regardless of how many times he answers for himself, and you are especially pushy about it whenever the pressure seems to come off him. You remind me of scum trying to push the easiest mislynch.

If he was so obvious, people wouldn't be voting him. Quality over quantity; wgeurts's answers sucked and he started seriously contradicting himself multiple times. Thus far no one's given a decent defence of wgeurts other than "He's just newbtown" when as we pointed out so many times, he's very much willing to pretend to be newbtown as shown by earlygame.
I find it odd (not scummy, just fallacious) that you're basing your Wisdom suspicions on the assumption that you and everyone else including Wisdom know he's town. You can't see this as just voting for the scummiest person?

The above comment by you is blatantly sheeping a bad case on me by mathdino. His whole post was crap and not worth a response. He's making up reasons to find me scummy and he can take his fabricated case on me and shove it where the sun don't shine. The fact that the only thing you had to say about it was the above extremely weak comment, reminds me of scum blending in, being wishy-washy, and not wanting to commit to any stance that might come back to bite them later in the game.

My heart is warmed. So am I scum or what? I fit the reads to the evidence, not vice versa. I had 0 suspicions on you (and very much had a townread on you) before I decided to make that post out of frustration that my analysis and interactive reads only allowed for one scum. I'd never even ISO'd you this game until that post.

You don't get to call my case fabricated without even referencing it. Show everyone what's so bad about it. You'll note that signs of 'blending in' and sheeping everyone else in the game is precisely what makes me think you're scum. So either you're hypocritical or I'm wrong. By all means, prove me wrong. Until then,

UNVOTE: wgeurts
VOTE: SilverWolf

To me, this seems to be based on an oversimplification of how emotions work in general. They can be fleeting or long lasting (life has taught me this). To flippantly say "the only emotions are the ones that don't fade" doesn't even sound remotely right. There's such a thing as doing rash things in the heat of the moment and, no offense to wgeurts, but he comes off as the kind of guy that would do something like that.

Psychologically, you're right. However that's not how it usually works in mafia games. Self voting by non-trolls can typically be interpreted as not anger but loss of interest and giving up, and that interest typically takes a lot more to get back than a few people saying "unvote yourself dammit". Having read a crapton of games I think Wisdom's making a very good point here; most self voters don't unvote until A. they get lynched, B. they get replaced, or C. their wagon dies.

Other thoughts:
I don't appreciate what I interpret as buddying from blindme.
Lol, I just reread Silver's posts and realised that even her latest posts fit with the whole "using everyone else's ideas, saying nothing new".
I still think Wisdom is town. Everything he's said seems very natural, and I'm not willing to lynch someone for taking that long to not vote; god knows I do that a ton.

Newbie

, who would you want to lynch if not wgeurts/Wisdom? What are your thoughts on Silver?

[Newbie]

Newbie

, who would you want to lynch if not wgeurts/Wisdom? What are your thoughts on Silver?

Outside of those two, there's really no one else I would be willing to lynch at the moment. I have other suspicions, but I want to let things play out before I say more on that.

As for Silver, I'm getting a town read from them since their current vote is on Wisdom who I'm getting a strong scum feel from. There's a possibility that Silver is bussing a fellow mafia member, but I doubt it.

[Wisdom]

You appear to be pushing wgeurts who is obviously newbtown VT as scum and you continue to do so regardless of how many times he answers for himself, and you are especially pushy about it whenever the pressure seems to come off him.

He is not obviously newbtown at all imo. He is faking it and it's working. There is a fine difference between actual newbtowns and scum faking them that you see with experience.

The above comment by you is blatantly sheeping a bad case on me by mathdino. His whole post was crap and not worth a response. He's making up reasons to find me scummy and he can take his fabricated case on me and shove it where the sun don't shine. The fact that the only thing you had to say about it was the above extremely weak comment, reminds me of scum blending in, being wishy-washy, and not wanting to commit to any stance that might come back to bite them later in the game.

I didn't think his case was bad, I found I agreed that I didn't remember anything notable from you this game, and ISOing you showed I remembered right. The only thing that was on my mind was your defence of me that was uncalled for.

I find this is a typical case of projection btw, as everything you're accusing me of are things you're doing yourself.

[Wisdom]

Do you honestly think scum would be so blatant about mason pushing? I can't believe even newbscum would do this.

Yeah, newbscum wouldn't. Scum that are using newbness to coast would. It was already explained.
[/quote]

[Wisdom]

I disagree with this vote and reasoning behind it. I see nothing wrong with Wgeurts unvoting himself after several people asked him to do so. I don't think this is more likely to come from scum vs town.

This is, once again, looking at the surface. "unvoting is normal because he was asked to do so". No. It's weird that a newbtown listens so easily and complies with what people are telling him to do. It's weird that all of his frustration is gone and he's back to playing like nothing happened. His breakdown was not genuine, that's what that tells us.

[Wisdom]

I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.

See above post. You're also looking at the surface and not beyond that. Being asked to do something does not mean that doing it is okay.

[SilverWolf]

I disagree with this vote and reasoning behind it. I see nothing wrong with Wgeurts unvoting himself after several people asked him to do so. I don't think this is more likely to come from scum vs town.

This is, once again, looking at the surface. "unvoting is normal because he was asked to do so". No. It's weird that a newbtown listens so easily and complies with what people are telling him to do. It's weird that all of his frustration is gone and he's back to playing like nothing happened. His breakdown was not genuine, that's what that tells us.

Actually, I've had breakdowns like this in other games when I've been so damn frustrated with being tunnelled as scum when I am town that I have voted myself and threatened to replace out and been talked out of it and changed my mind and gone back to playing. This is something I can relate to as coming from a town mindset based on my own experiences with it which is probably why I see it as a newbtown action.

[Wisdom]

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

@blindmewithscience Don't be shy, jump on my wagon too. Or are you afraid to commit?

[Wisdom]

I disagree with this vote and reasoning behind it. I see nothing wrong with Wgeurts unvoting himself after several people asked him to do so. I don't think this is more likely to come from scum vs town.

This is, once again, looking at the surface. "unvoting is normal because he was asked to do so". No. It's weird that a newbtown listens so easily and complies with what people are telling him to do. It's weird that all of his frustration is gone and he's back to playing like nothing happened. His breakdown was not genuine, that's what that tells us.

Actually, I've had breakdowns like this in other games when I've been so damn frustrated with being tunnelled as scum when I am town that I have voted myself and threatened to replace out and been talked out of it and changed my mind and gone back to playing. This is something I can relate to as coming from a town mindset based on my own experiences with it which is probably why I see it as a newbtown action.

How easily did you change your mind? I am not arguing it can't be done, I am arguing it can't be done in a heartbeat.

[SilverWolf]

I disagree with this vote and reasoning behind it. I see nothing wrong with Wgeurts unvoting himself after several people asked him to do so. I don't think this is more likely to come from scum vs town.

This is, once again, looking at the surface. "unvoting is normal because he was asked to do so". No. It's weird that a newbtown listens so easily and complies with what people are telling him to do. It's weird that all of his frustration is gone and he's back to playing like nothing happened. His breakdown was not genuine, that's what that tells us.

Actually, I've had breakdowns like this in other games when I've been so damn frustrated with being tunnelled as scum when I am town that I have voted myself and threatened to replace out and been talked out of it and changed my mind and gone back to playing. This is something I can relate to as coming from a town mindset based on my own experiences with it which is probably why I see it as a newbtown action.

How easily did you change your mind? I am not arguing it can't be done, I am arguing it can't be done in a heartbeat.

In my case, it happened pretty quickly because I had some good people telling me not to let scum or paranoid town rile me up and to stay calm and all that other good advice. Getting emotional like that is something I am working very hard to control. Wgeurts could be the same personality type.

[Mathdino]

I like how Silver is engaging in conversation with her top suspect who she thinks is scum
but is completely ignoring me.

Thanks for that one.

[SilverWolf]

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

Actually, my reasoning is pretty solid and I'm sticking with it for now. I am not really caring for the sheeping comments from mathdino or the comments from you either so if you guys get me lynched, I'll flip town, and be out of the game and then you guys can go back to leaving the new players alone-newbie, wegeurts, myself and actually go after real scum, unless of course one or both of you is scum doing this in which case, it would make sense.

[Newbie]

See above post. You're also looking at the surface and not beyond that. Being asked to do something does not mean that doing it is okay.

From my perspective, it looked like a townie who was honestly frustrated and wanted the other players to closely observe his wagon when he flips town. He didn't want his death to be in vain. I think posts like this, this, and this gave him good advice and I think he realized that, which in turn gave him hope.

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

If you're lynched and flip as town, then I'm most likely going to be a top scum candidate on mostly everyone's lists. It's the chance I'm willing to take, though. And lol with the rehashed reasoning. If multiple people notice similar scummy things about you, then that can't be helped. My reasons for suspecting you are legit (I will admit that wgeurts' good points added onto it as well.).

Posts #1 and #2 by Wisdom are weird because they came after wgeurts' voting/unvoting of him as well as the

obvious

suspicious behavior that wgeurts was getting hounded for. I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.

There also hasn't been any real scum hunting from Wisdom, just a few comments here and there about certain players and questions towards certain players. It almost seems like Wisdom is skirting through this phase, asking just the right amount of questions in order to not set off any alarms.

I also think it's possible that Wisdom could've been trying to inch by inch put suspicion on VD with posts 1, 2, and 3.


Of course, if wgeurts flips scum, all of this will most likely become null.