NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

T S O
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Post Post #2250  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:56 pm

a very quick count tells me 20 of those 26 mentions are in quotes, not new posts (one post is a constantly rehashed readslist I didn't include).

still don't agree one bit.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #2251  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:57 pm

In post 2220, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 2217, TierShift wrote:
In post 2199, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 2022, TierShift wrote:Pere, what do you think about ?


It seems like a continuation of the Slandaar read in . The reasons seem to be the opposite of why I'm a scumread (), but maybe he just hates people catching up or calling them catch-up posts.

Either way, seems upset about the Goodmorning vote and the reason behind it.

Never mentions Aeronaut previously except once, so doubt they are scum together.

I was talking in terms of townish-scummy, you don't need to describe what the post says.


I think it's scummish on the surface, but I'm not backchecking the links to check the allegations. So call it null, but I'll probably end up voting the Anen wagon since it;s the only counter to my own.


in fact pere even fucking says that he doesn't have an actual reason to think that anen is scum

the fuck you smoking muffin?
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #2252  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:38 pm

I have to agree with TSO on the evidence here. PereV didn't even attempt a case on Anenienen, and had just barely called him scummy in a not very committal way.

But I also have to ask TSO, how is it alignment indicative to vote a counterwagon?

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Post Post #2253  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:49 pm

@Aneninen
Spoiler: fluff? (4 others)
In post 2197, Aneninen wrote:
In post 2175, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 2164, Aneninen wrote:Hmmm... and has that claim changed your reads on Pere?

did you read what he claimed when? (follow the link?)

Yes. Though I asked Thor, what's your opinion about that claim?



This claim
In post 1366, PeregrineV wrote:And I did claim, but since reading is sometimes happenstance,
Town Neighbor is a neighborhood with Egg (votes today-24, 40) and Thor (votes today- 23, 64, 132, 376)
Neighborhood opened and closed over weekend, so I have no posts. Thor has 10, Egg has 11.

is a claim to be in a neighbour hood.
It is not a role claim (ala boonskies soft claim)

Significance
If you subscribe to the theory that the host gave town 3(IIRC 3 hoods) free modconfirmed cop list checks... as part of the game balance.
Then approximately 1 in 4 of each neighborhood is scum. Thats seriously powerful.

Given that it would also be powerful if we were given a neighborhood, where if we kept it secret it could be an all town circle, that could plan stuff.

Then Id suggest my best guess is there is some chance of either. As such we as players are forced to play the damn game instead of second guess the mod and play against his setup skills.
In post 1109, Thor665 wrote:As I recall, I flat out told you in the QT that I considered neighbor to be amongst the most useless of town roles in existence.

Thor rarely lies, blatantly except in jest. or as /sarcasm but without the tag. So Id assume he really near enough believes "neighbor to be amongst the most useless of town roles in existence." and although technically it is the existence of the hood not the role itself that creates a quasi list check (in the all hoods are 1/4 scum BS scenario) (even if it was, then that hood is 1/3 not 1/4 scum)(However the power would come from knowing that if we find a scum the rest are town...)

So, for me its not highly meaningful at all for todays lynch. (unless someone with site meta setup knowledge, contradicts me and says blah blah)

As such I wonder at the intent of your questioning?


Spoiler: more
In post 2164, Aneninen wrote:
In post 2039, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2020, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 2002, Thor665 wrote:With not even a single claim or L-1 on the table.

Claimed in

Good, so we don't need hammer intent.


Clearly the 2039 by Pere is BS, that claim is not the kind of claim that is required at L-1
So is Thors 2020

You didnt and dont 'seem' to be joking.... Huh?
Hmmm... and has that claim changed your reads on Pere?

but quite possibly useful to me if Aneninen responds in spoiler.

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Post Post #2254  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:17 pm

In post 2195, davesaz wrote:
In post 2144, goodmorning wrote:
In post 2139, Slandaar wrote:
In post 2127, goodmorning wrote:Why would I come into a fresh discussion with an agenda?

Is this a serious question?

Lets talk hypothetically; If you are scum do you think you would have an agenda while entering a fresh discussion?

I begin to see the problem here. One of us is wrong about my alignment. Hmmmmm.

The only agenda I have, as either alignment, is to figure things out.
I don't come into questioning intending anything else.

This does not quite ring true. Sure, maybe at a high level you're figuring things out, but that's not the only factor in deciding whether to enter a discussion and how. Scum can and do butt in when a townie is after their buddy, for example. Disrupting the questioning process is a way to help a buddy without openly defending them. So information gathering as the explanation for entering a discussion is really shallow.

I began the questioning process, so I'm really not sure where you're going with this.

In post 2208, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 2063, Egg wrote:When I find a scum read early on Day 1

Perhaps a walk through the mind of Egg on how you arrived at a scum read on me.

In the interest of full disclosure, you voted me in post before I ever entered the game, so am keenly interested in the process of how you "find a scum read".

OOH BURN

Why is Pere the leading wagon again?

Oh, I remember. It's because Thor said so.

In post 2235, Shiro wrote:gosh I am still on page 22 sorry people this will take longer than expected :/

and this keep going it was page 88 when I started DX

It's only going to get worse as deadline gets closer. Catching up as quickly as you possibly can is your only hope :]
EFFORT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT
Calling On Dragons coming eventually!

Get to know a very pleasant AM.

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Post Post #2255  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:17 pm

I actually sort of think Muffin is Town now though, it's been a weird couple days.
EFFORT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT
Calling On Dragons coming eventually!

Get to know a very pleasant AM.

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Post Post #2256  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:35 pm

What is everyone's read on my slot?

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Post Post #2257  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:36 pm

I can't even remember what heph did and I'm too tired to check
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #2258  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:38 pm

He did nothing. And that is the truth.

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Post Post #2259  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:41 pm

In post 2207, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 2059, Scripten wrote:This sounds like a town read. I suppose that makes sense. Do you think his pushes (discounting TSO) are worthwhile?


Does he have a non-TSO push? He seems to really like TSO for scum.


You appear to not understand my play.

Quite some time ago.
The Aeneninen wagon looked off.

perhaps they (the voters) don't know Aneninen, (or that will be a convenient excuse if, they are scum and, they need one)?
post link in thread. make it >>>>obvious<<<<

Ask the guy with practically zero actual content on why the person he is voting is scum....
(get trolled or told to fuck off by arrogant scum/town)
bang face on wall for very very long time.

Start looking -_- at every player in the game, because they let that fly....
bang face on wall for very very long time.

decide fuck it, he is clearly not actually playing on my team.
(choice: throw a tanty stamp feet and go silly, play what is left of the game, even if others dont want to)

return to investigating whether the Aneninen wagon is based on stuff I dont see, or whether there is scum in that there early wagon.

Does any of that make Anenenine town/scum?
Nope none of that was Anenenin doing scummy looking stuff, (indeed its me failing to see where people showed that (back then) which is the original problem)

On that wagon it is equally (near enough) plausible for me that scum will fake push a scum buddy with no real desire to get them lynched (not bussing just parking) as place to park your vote.
(esp if you have vote park meta...)
or they will fake push a towny, with no urgency to get them flipped either. This would be especially true if the other wagons were TvT. (or Tv(scum who is dead in the water and written off)

Spoiler: a rule that _will_ be irrelevant
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Trust_Tell
The player insists that they only do this behavior as a certain alignment, and never as any other alignment.

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Post Post #2260  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:57 pm

In post 2215, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 2189, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:4. Boonskiies- Probably scum



can you explain what came before here that made you think "probably scum"
to be clear I interpet that statement at that time to mean More likely than every body labelled less strongly, (its an early D1 read),
but I am interested in where it came from?


He had 11 posts. 1 had content (). He also voted and unvoted 2 people, one of which he revotes.



The votes were RVS, &
You previously liked (pretty sure I have said I even liked you liking that post)

Is Boon normally more contentful and thus you think for instance the stress of being scum is making him less so in this game?

not feeling where the read came from yet.

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Post Post #2261  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:24 pm

In post 2233, T S O wrote:Peregrine's jump on Anen is awful.

However, I still want Anen dead.

What do?


Can I upsize that?

does that come with reasons?

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Post Post #2262  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:40 pm

Tier, see my ISO. Actually, I don't think you responded to anything I posted about you.

Aneninen, that's twice you've dodged the question. Did you even consider heph's town meta, especially in large games, before calling the slot scum for lurking?

Pere wrote: If there are 2 scumteams, and Thor called it despite evidence to the contrary, Thor is either
1. Lucky town that got the setup right for reasons mortals will never fathom
2. Scum that already knows it


And you are voting him. So you actually ARE assuming two scum teams now? (Yes, I saw that you had a 3 and 4 option for one team, but you call him town in 3 and call 4 ridiculous and are voting him so...)

Pere on the Script vote wrote: And it wasn't a reaction test


I must have seriously misunderstood your reasoning for that vote then. Fair on the rest of that post by the way.

Pere wrote: Yes. I guess I gave out too much information.

How does my list compare you yours?[\quote]

Huh? Where in my post do you get that this is about the amount of information and not the amount of scum reads. And are you asking me to post a reads list?

Pere wrote: Perhaps a walk through the mind of Egg on how you arrived at a scum read on me.In the interest of full disclosure, you voted me in post 24 before I ever entered the game, so am keenly interested in the process of how you "find a scum read".


I know you admitted you don't read fully, but come on. I've covered my reasons for thinking you are scum and the original one is no longer one. That went away when Cho claimed neighbor forever ago.

[Quote="Pere"] No, and no. How is anything I said exaggerated?[\quote]

You said if there are two teams, there is a 100% chance Thor is scum. It's a normal game, so you can't possibly know that without being his scumbuddy. That is exaggerating by definition.

Tier, no, I made a few points against you before that. And I'd agree with you about associatives if I voted you on that alone. However, I'm not voting you. I'm voting Pere.

Beast, my read on your slot is one of the most null of everyone in this game. Heph, a chronic lurker, did nothing. You've come in and done nothing just like anywhere else I've ever seen you. Why are you asking ffor reads on your slot? What do you think of Pere, Thor, and Aneninen?

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Post Post #2263  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:42 pm

In post 2243, T S O wrote:
In post 2241, davesaz wrote:Hey, wait, it wasn't that bad after all. But I derped by jumping to conclusions anyway. lol

TSO -- you still owe that case. I'm seriously considering sheeping onto your wagon for this reason.


I KNOW MY MOTIVATION IS SHOT TO SHIT TO DO IT BUT NOT DOING IT GIVES AXLE A REASON TO CALL ME SCUM


you are soooooooooooo kind. XXX. (but no babies)


returning to the actual game we are all meant to be playing.

What I need is rreason to vote your wagon.... remember the guy you want lynched because he is scum (yeah that one i need a reason if i am going to vote him)

PereV can vote your wagon as he looks likely to be lynched and if he is town he knows voting Anenine is 100% better than voting himself.

I need a reason.
In particular the reason i need to see is that Aennine has been scum all day.....
My towny theory for Anenines later game play is he was tilted by you + (others) scummily tunneling for crap all.

Thus to vote your wagon I need your reasons.... (from earlier)

Remember, play to win?
and you actually want your scum read lynched right?


Perhaps Garmr can give me some reasons Aenenien was scum earlier, when he first voted him ?

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Post Post #2264  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:44 pm

@Thor here's your reads list.

I think Thor and PV are both anti-town roles. SK and scum, or multiball, or whatever. Hell, maybe it's scum v. scum. It doesn't really matter. They're way to eager to cram up the thread with multiball bullshit nobody wants to read. It's apathetic and scummy.

TSO is scum till I hear his case on Anen.

Axle's filibuster tunnel is less scummy than Thor and PV because he comes off as less experienced. Null. I want to ask him for a reads list but I'm going to be completely honest, I probably wouldn't give it more than a passing glance.

Dave is scum for his poor sheeping of PV.

Goodmorning is town completely lost in the scale of the large. I sympathize.

Egg is hard town for keeping up with the game, and for overall strong scumhunting.

Muffin is town for his scumhunting.

Garmr is null because I haven't bothered to parse a single post of his yet.

@Thor who else do you want a read on?

@Tiershift what made you want to join this game?

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Post Post #2265  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:51 pm

Flubber, to be fair, I've done a shitty job of keeping up and my "strong scumhunting" has led me to exactly one strong scum read who has yet to flip.

And I thought TSO's case on Aneninen was that he stopped responding to him.

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Post Post #2266  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:54 pm

In post 2254, goodmorning wrote:
In post 2195, davesaz wrote:
In post 2144, goodmorning wrote:The only agenda I have, as either alignment, is to figure things out.
I don't come into questioning intending anything else.


This does not quite ring true. Sure, maybe at a high level you're figuring things out, but that's not the only factor in deciding whether to enter a discussion and how. Scum can and do butt in when a townie is after their buddy, for example. Disrupting the questioning process is a way to help a buddy without openly defending them. So information gathering as the explanation for entering a discussion is really shallow.

I began the questioning process, so I'm really not sure where you're going with this.


You are saying things that are not true. (Unless it is true that you never have an agenda, do you really mean that?)
Why does this need to be explained?

What alignment says things that aren't true?

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Post Post #2267  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:02 pm

Spoiler: @beast /noise
In post 2256, beastcharizard wrote:What is everyone's read on my slot?

predecessor ISO and vote count says...
In post 2258, beastcharizard wrote:He did nothing. And that is the truth.


So everyone is likely to have the read he did nothing...

FYI: I dont remember anybody pushing a lets lynch the/a lurker meme...

A really early D1 kind of read would be, town if I squint really hard... (and am compelled to flip a coin.)
So starting at 25% chance of scum, ,...your predecessor was at 24.?

At some time in the future I will probably give more weight to how you dealt with catching up than the prior read.

Play?

why do you care, even a tiny bit?

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Post Post #2268  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:42 pm

In post 2259, AxleGreaser wrote:decide fuck it, he is clearly not actually playing on my team.

The bolded "he"... is that referring to Aneninen or TSO? I have trouble following your trains of thought.

Also, is Aneninenenineneninen town or scum in your opinion?
One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.

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Post Post #2269  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:44 pm

In post 2267, AxleGreaser wrote:
Spoiler: @beast /noise
In post 2256, beastcharizard wrote:What is everyone's read on my slot?

predecessor ISO and vote count says...
In post 2258, beastcharizard wrote:He did nothing. And that is the truth.


So everyone is likely to have the read he did nothing...

FYI: I dont remember anybody pushing a lets lynch the/a lurker meme...

A really early D1 kind of read would be, town if I squint really hard... (and am compelled to flip a coin.)
So starting at 25% chance of scum, ,...your predecessor was at 24.?

At some time in the future I will probably give more weight to how you dealt with catching up than the prior read.

Play?

why do you care, even a tiny bit?


It was just a question to gauge how lazy I can be.

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Post Post #2270  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:30 pm

In post 2268, Muffin wrote:
In post 2259, AxleGreaser wrote:decide fuck it, he is clearly not actually playing on my team.

The bolded "he"... is that referring to Aneninen or TSO? I have trouble following your trains of thought.

Also, is Aneninenenineneninen town or scum in your opinion?


While I think its clear, I can well understand the confusion, I often have to pedit my posts (before posting) to clarify stuff like that.

Spoiler: annotated version
In post 2259, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 2207, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 2059, Scripten wrote:This sounds like a town read. I suppose that makes sense. Do you think his pushes (discounting TSO) are worthwhile?


Does he have a non-TSO push? He seems to really like TSO for scum.


You appear to not understand my play.

Quite some time ago.
The Aeneninen wagon looked off.

perhaps they (the voters) don't know Aneninen, (or that will be a convenient excuse if, they are scum and, they need one)?
post link in thread. make it >>>>obvious<<<<

Ask the guy(TSO) with practically zero actual content on why the person he(TSO) is voting is scum(TSO reads Anen as scum)....
(get trolled(by TSO) or told to fuck off by arrogant scum/town)
bang face on wall for very very long time.

Start looking -_- at every player in the game, because they let that fly.... (rest of town allowed TSO to play that way)
bang face on wall for very very long time.

decide fuck it, he(TSO) is clearly not actually playing on my team. ( This harks back to lots of my filter, hence I thought it was clear. most importantly my 'case' ) )
(choice: throw a tanty stamp feet and go silly, play what is left of the game, even if others dont want to)

return to investigating whether the Aneninen wagon is based on stuff I dont see, or whether there is scum in that there early wagon.

Does any of that make Anenenine town/scum?
Nope none of that was Anenenin doing scummy looking stuff, (indeed its me failing to see where people showed that (back then) which is the original problem)

On that wagon it is equally (near enough) plausible for me that scum will fake push a scum buddy with no real desire to get them lynched (not bussing just parking) as place to park your vote.
(esp if you have vote park meta...)
or they will fake push a towny, with no urgency to get them flipped either. This would be especially true if the other wagons were TvT. (or Tv(scum who is dead in the water and written off)

[spoiler elided]


yes in my opinion Anenine is town or scum.(sorry, read on)

A reason to vote Pere today is I now think i have more to gain and find out by making sure that the people that want to lynch Aneneinen have to state their reasons... eventually.

I have real problems with how people were voting Aneneinen earlier.
Those problems were consistent with Aneninen being a scum buddy, not really being bussed, just being look busied on.

They were also consistent with players parking on weak player, and thinking they didnt need a real reason then being surprised when I seriously pressed for one.
(here is TSO feeling Thor out on Aneninen , before TSO votes him)

They were also initially consistent with p,layers that dont know Aneninen.

As for a direct read on Aneninen, that is hard, which is one reason the earlier cases were not even plausible as real.

he has never played scum game on this forum, standard expectations would be low for what he might do this game. (this IMO is important)

many of his posts while easy for TSO to denigrate, do fit my understanding of his previous meta.
he did much later go off the rails once or twice.

he went silly (from my POV) at . In that post he is thinking? but what is? (but if he was town i read that as relief...) If hes scum its just WTF.
at he flipped,
(towny reason: presumably as he became aware i didnt totally town read him, him thinking its about as friends allies and betrayl, hence being personally upset i hadnt actually taken his 'side', and was just scum hunting those voting him, could well have been a shock) (he apparently has not yet learned to trust others distrust of him)
(scum reason: he didnt like his perception of the pressure i was applying elsewhere.)

The reads as him being tilted. (Tony reason: yep i can understand towny Aneninen being tilted by now. Scum reason: Im not sure scum Aenenin can fake being titled and dont know why he was tilted at Slaandar.)

Aneninen: I am pretty sure I lean town on him. (The recent stuff is worrying and its not good, but understandable.)
However I am sure I will get more out of an ongoing discussion of Aneninen tomorrow that more and more multiball crap.

Lots of thats in relatively Axle short hand as people dont want HUUUUGE walls. Especially given the time of game day. If some bit intrigues you ask questions, there will be longer version in English.

If other people would actually post their fucking reasoning that might of course change...

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Post Post #2271  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:35 pm

In post 2269, beastcharizard wrote:
In post 2267, AxleGreaser wrote:
Spoiler: @beast /noise
In post 2256, beastcharizard wrote:What is everyone's read on my slot?

predecessor ISO and vote count says...
In post 2258, beastcharizard wrote:He did nothing. And that is the truth.


So everyone is likely to have the read he did nothing...

FYI: I dont remember anybody pushing a lets lynch the/a lurker meme...

A really early D1 kind of read would be, town if I squint really hard... (and am compelled to flip a coin.)
So starting at 25% chance of scum, ,...your predecessor was at 24.?

At some time in the future I will probably give more weight to how you dealt with catching up than the prior read.

Play?

why do you care, even a tiny bit?


It was just a question to gauge how lazy I can be.


bugger.
but if you are lazy it will probably bite you later.
Only playing when you have to, looks bad to me, but you are along long way behind in rading.

Prioritise well.
Good decisions about that look towny.

Also all these wagons if they are actually stalled may cause a bail out vote lurker compromise lynch... (ooo did i sound scary enough?)

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Post Post #2272  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:42 pm

thank you
One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.

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Post Post #2273  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:44 pm

Votecount 1.18

[6]PeregrineV: Egg, Thor665, Scripten, The Fonz, Boonskiies, AxleGreaser
[5]Aneninen: Shiro*, TierShift, Garmr, T S O, PeregrineV
[4]Thor665: goodmorning, Nero Cain, flubbernugget, Izariael
[1]goodmorning: Slandaar
[1]Slandaar: Aneninen
[1]T S O: Muffin
[1]Shiro: Grayfoxxxx

[2] Not Voting: beastcharizard, davesaz

With 21 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline: (expired on 2014-10-27 20:25:38)

Mod Notes
PeregrineV is V/LA from 24-27 October.



*Unvote does not count because it was not even bolded
Currently partying at the M A S Q U E R A D E -- a Large Normal for 21 revelers.

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Post Post #2274  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:22 am

In post 2254, goodmorning wrote:Why is Pere the leading wagon again?

Oh, I remember. It's because Thor said so.

In other news; Thor is complaining that other people aren't pushing wagons - almost as though he has a point.

In post 2256, beastcharizard wrote:What is everyone's read on my slot?

Scummy.

In post 2264, Flubbernugget wrote:@Thor who else do you want a read on?

Do you have other reads? Because you included a null and some other very soft reads there - were those your strongest reads, or just random reads?

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