[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[LlamaFluff]

10 Vanilla Town
2 Goons

Night Start

Goons do not know the other goon

Each night goons submit a list of all other players in their order of prefrence for night kills. Top spot gets X points (where X+1 is all living players), all the way down to last who get one. Points are added by the mod and the highest ranked town player gets killed.

As the game goes on the goons might be able to infer who the other one is a bit, and start playing like a team, just might be an interesting concept.

[LlamaFluff]

10 Vanilla Town
2 Goons

Night Start

Goons do not know the other goon

Each night goons submit a list of all other players in their order of prefrence for night kills. Top spot gets X points (where X+1 is all living players), all the way down to last who get one. Points are added by the mod and the highest ranked town player gets killed.

As the game goes on the goons might be able to infer who the other one is a bit, and start playing like a team, just might be an interesting concept.

I like this. Just make sure that the scum PM is posted publicly so that the scum don't try and confirm each other.

Well it is an open game...

[LlamaFluff]

Setup Name: Molehill Mafia

I just ran this setup in this game. The setup is a 10:2 mountainous game, but with one modification to the vanilla/goon roles. Each player has a ranking from 1-12, and during night phases, they are allowed to target another player, making everyone a neighborizer. Anyone who targets a lower ranked player starts a QT with them. Mafia ranks can be randomized and work in any spot.

This is just a small modification to bring life back into the classic mountainous setup, a way to keep the interest in the game that is normally lost by most people who draw vanilla roles. I think this makes a good open setup, as its simple, yet still allows for heavy flavor addition for the mod while sticking to a setup that is balanced. A good inbetween setup for the open and the theme games.

[LlamaFluff]

Would a quick shift in newbie work to do something like

random between

1) 1 Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 2 Mafia Roleblocker
2) 1 Cop, 1 Unliscensed Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 1 Mafia RB, 1 Mafia Goon
3) 1 Macho Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 1 Mafia RB, 1 Mafia Goon
4) 1 Macho Cop, 1 Unliscensed Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 2 Mafia RB

Just tweaking the game a bit to add more (hopefully) of a town advantage, especially to setup 4 where town just gets blasted in the game. UD is doc that fails if they target the cop, leaving the 2RB on setup 1 and 4 is to leave the setup only half known for scum, much like the RB signaling both or niether role in F11.

[LlamaFluff]

Would a quick shift in newbie work to do something like

random between

1) 1 Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 2 Mafia Roleblocker
2) 1 Cop, 1 Unliscensed Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 1 Mafia RB, 1 Mafia Goon
3) 1 Macho Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 1 Mafia RB, 1 Mafia Goon
4) 1 Macho Cop, 1 Unliscensed Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 2 Mafia RB

Just tweaking the game a bit to add more (hopefully) of a town advantage, especially to setup 4 where town just gets blasted in the game. UD is doc that fails if they target the cop, leaving the 2RB on setup 1 and 4 is to leave the setup only half known for scum, much like the RB signaling both or niether role in F11.

This

Not intended to replace newbie setup. Just a modification of one for basic play.

Where's the difference between 2, 3, & 4? Is it in rolename only?

It makes a difference whether the cop knows that they can't be protected, or if the doc knows there's no reason to ever protect a claimed cop, etc.

In fact, that's one great selling point: UD and MC is better than UD and cop, or doc and MC.

This is the reason behind it. Its common practice for the cop/doc setup to be regarded as "more fun" by players, so this is a way to always have a cop and doc around, just possibly weaker versions of it.

2 roleblockers seem a bit strong. Could always make it a group abillity, b ut for a newbie game that'd be weird.

Effectively it is a group ability, if one of the mafia is performing the RB and the other is performing the kill (presumably a lone mafia RB can use both abilities during the same night.)

Thats normally my rule for games. If there is just one member left they can then start performing a kill and active action. Giving scum two RBers in the cop/doc helps balance it a bit. In the WC/UD it leaves scum not sure as to what they are up against.

Again, this is NOT a newbie game setup. Just a regular open game that is a modification of the newbie (F11) setup.

[LlamaFluff]

Well I will be the one to say it.

I dont think we should ever have any open games that have a jester in them. Jesters go against everything that is mafia, by actively punishing the town for scumhunting players who look scummy. It creates a lot of WIFOM as the town now has to decide if the player who reads as scum actually is trying to get lynched because it lets them win the game. While it may be able to be balanced in the long run, I just really dont see it as being something that should be ran since it is about as close to being "not mafia" as you can while still staying in the relm of actually working. It just (again no offense) sounds like one of those setups that is going to be loved by the VI players, while most of the vet players avoid it at almost all costs. Jesters are just wrong as a role, and I do not want them in open games.

I think vengeful should be eliminated as well but thats another story and for different reasons

[LlamaFluff]

Notice I said "other reasons" there. Its fine as mafia, its not fine as a prerequisite to mod anything else since its over in five pages.

[LlamaFluff]

Same.... difference

[LlamaFluff]

Ah, well. I still think Jester games should not be allowed in the open database, or for any game for that matter without explicit warning from the mod that there may be a jester in the game so people who dont want to play with one know to avoid the game.

Let say that day one in scum says "im the jester" in his first post. The jester counter claims. Boom setup broken. Town now has a 50-50 chance of winning the game and a 50-50 chance of losing the game. Zero skill involved from here on.

[LlamaFluff]

Oh yeah the suicide thing stops that breakage, although it also relies on town knowingly lynching town twice which is a sign of a problem again.

I think the setup is just not a good one for the open queue because it has a jester, which is toeing the line of "not mafia". Any setup where town can lose the game by lynching someone who is not town, which is exactly what they are supposed to do, has some serious flaws in it. As a closed setup with a warning of there being a jester, fine, but I think a jester game is not something that should be commonly occuring on the site, since it teaches things that are damaging to play outside of jester games.

[LlamaFluff]

Eliminate the not-town people is the goal of mafia. Jesters change the goal to eliminate the non-town people but not one of the non-town people or you lose. I may be odd (since my favorite three opens are Jungle Republis, 8:4 Nightless and 10:2 Mountain), but I dont think a jester game needs to be added to open possibilites.

[LlamaFluff]

Jesters are almost universally hated though. Yes I think the game is going to go though, but I really dont think that its a good setup to expose to the open queue. It can work, but as I said, any setup where town loses for doing the right thing (lynching anti town) is flawed. Its why you lynch all neutral claims in closed setups, its the best plan of attack for town, this setup makes non-optimal play "correct"

[LlamaFluff]

Cult Multiball (Culti-Ball?)

1x Red Cult Leader
1x Purple Cult Leader

1x Red Cult Cop
1x Purple Cult Cop
1x Vigilantee
0-2 (random) Strong Willed Townie
0-2 (random) Weak Willed Townie

10-14 Vanilla Townie

*Instant action night
*Each cult member can attempt to recruit three times per game, once per night (regardless of success)
*If both cults target the same player, that player dies of insanity
*Strong willed cant be recruited
*Weak willed dies if attempted to be recruited
*Cult is unable to recruit vig, cop and other cult
*Cops get positive on leader and members
*Cult wins when they make up half the town
*Cult A = Cult B at endgame is massacre, town win.

~Action orders
*Recruit
*Investigate
*Kill

[LlamaFluff]

Empowered Mafia

2x Town Empowerer
0-1x Town Cop
0-1x Town Doctor
0-1x Town Tracker
0-1x Town Vigilantee
0-1x Town Hider
0-1x Town Voyure
0-6x Town Townie

1x Mafia Empowerer
1x Mafia Roleblocker
1x Mafia Backup

*Empowerer targets one player each night, that players role will actually work.
*Unempowered player actions fail
*All Empowerers are unable to be protected
*Mafia Backup takes on role of first player to die (empowerer or not)
*Mafia Vig can exist due to this
*Backup ability is passive, use of gained role requires empowerer
*Empowered players can be roleblocked

Sample Town Empowerer Role

You are a Town Empowerer

Each night you may target a player, and their ability will be activated for the night. You are unable to be protected by a doctor

Power Role

You are a Town Cop

Each night you may target a player and learn if they are mafia or not mafia. If you are not impowered, your action will fail.

[LlamaFluff]

Massclaim D1 obviously breaks that setup, Llama.

Yes I realized after I got into the shower that I posted V1.0 instead of 1.1 which made 0-1 (RNG) for town roles.

[LlamaFluff]

Might be best to add another townie to compensate for a possible D2 mylo if the vig or Hider register an extra town kill at night (after a D1 mislynch).

Extra VT may be right here, I just always dont like going over 13 players in any setup unless there are one or two very specific things I am trying to accomplish in a setup.

I just like playing around with the idea of empowerer themed open since I got to thinking of them recently due to some game I skimmed through. Another one of the setups I like where town really gets to choose what type of path they want to go down instead of just following roles and then giving scum basically the same thing.

[LlamaFluff]

Might be best to add another townie to compensate for a possible D2 mylo if the vig or Hider register an extra town kill at night (after a D1 mislynch).

Extra VT may be right here, I just always dont like going over 13 players in any setup unless there are one or two very specific things I am trying to accomplish in a setup.

Your setup is currently 11 players - I was suggesting a 12th.

I thought it was at 13... yeah I can throw a guarenteed 2 VT in that can RNG up to 8.

I really need to stop trying to make tacks on to setups and stuff right before I go to bed or get up.

[LlamaFluff]

Tracker 11P

1 or 2 Town Tracker
7 or 8 Vanilla Town

2 Mafia Goon

Based on the theory of getting went nowhere result is a significant town tell.

[LlamaFluff]

EBG 11

1x Town Elite Bodyguard (kills attacker)
8x Town Townie

1x Mafia Goon
1x 1-Shot Mafia Role Cop

Simple is better

[LlamaFluff]

EBG 11

1x Town Elite Bodyguard (kills attacker)
8x Town Townie

1x Mafia Goon
1x 1-Shot Mafia Role Cop

Simple is better

I agree, simple is better
The upside of this setup is definitely that it allows town to keep pro-town players alive... But I think the role cop is too strong. With a kill and a rolecop scum can scan a town of only 9 inital players incredibly fast and hitting the guard with the kill is a rather lucky conincidence (unless the guard could self-target in which case you could just make him a bomb anyway). It's definitely more in town's favour than ) 9:2 mountaineous which is about 65%:35%, but I think a bodyguard alone doesn't make it for town.
I would make the role cop a role blocker.

Roleblocker I dont like in this setup at all since it can take out the bodyguard from the equation (and why make a role to counteract the setups main point?).

My thought is that we have (likely) 8 town roles alive at night, so im going to guess about a 25% chance of the EBG going off (few should be obv not kill or protect). With the role cop, it allows scum to scout out a little bit, since the EBG actually working swings the game strongly in the direction of town. That and EBG is a role that will prevent a lynch or cause a 1:1 trade to occur. If 25% of the time it kills scum, I think allowing the scum to know a little bit more about who might have to role is better. You also have to think the chance of FINDING the EBG is 25% the first night (killed or RCed), after that it decreases to odds of NK. Most of the time it will give scum someone who isnt the RC, meaning chances are (1-town)/town starting the second night of hitting town or about 80%. Think I like leaving him one shot.

Also obviously EBG isnt allowed to self-protect.

[LlamaFluff]

Random thought...

Friends and Acquaintances and Enemies

3x Masons
3x Neighbors (Masons or Mafia can be neighbors) - Have Daytalk
3x Vanilla Mafia
4-7x VT (bring to 13 players)

Just a new way to look at what already is a decent setup (FaE/FaEaE) by adding a new element to it.

[LlamaFluff]

I know this will seem really insignificantly small, but if all 3 masons end up drawing neighbours (as unlikely as it is), then it's a waste of neighbours. A way to prevent that would be nice.

Statistically insignificant (0.3%) outcome shouldnt weigh on it since it would come up all masons/mafia about one of every 280 runs.

[LlamaFluff]

Random thought...

Friends and Acquaintances and Enemies

3x Masons
3x Neighbors (Masons or Mafia can be neighbors) - Have Daytalk
3x Vanilla Mafia
4-7x VT (bring to 13 players)

Just a new way to look at what already is a decent setup (FaE/FaEaE) by adding a new element to it.

Town sided with 13 players depending on how the neighbours are utilised I guess? Depends on how pro town you figure the neighbourhood is, since I think F+E with 13 players is slightly town sided on the forum.

Thats kinda why I like it, its going to add some EV to whatever side is able to use the neighbor ability better (if scum have it) and the fact that its daytalk really pushes for the utilization of it if you can trust the other players in it enough. If scum gets in there and plays it well, it could be very useful for them to have around. If mason gets in there and plays it right, it will be great for getting them better established.

Basically just giving a little tweak to something that we know already works, and I like neighbors due to the current site interest in that role, making a group in an open setup can be interesting. Daytalk vs Nighttalk is very negotiable, but I like removing a time period that both masons and neighbors can be chatting at once. Chance of all masons/mafia is so low that it doesnt matter, even getting two in there is about a 4% chance.

[LlamaFluff]

Once again, Junpei everybody. Clap if you give a fuck what he says.

*clap*

He does raise a valid point, trying to shut down something because open players "arent as good" said the way you did (especially coming from you) is laughable. First its something that will almost never occur, it would be about the same odds as CCCCCTT coming up in C9++, just because its rare doesnt mean it needs fixing. Saying "cant be all three" would make it worse since there is a noticeable (should take ~20 runs) chance of two mafia being in it, and if they both died last neighbor gets confirmed.

The entire setup basically takes a balanced enough setup and then adds an aspect that will reward good play around a modification regadless of faction. Good play from town or scum can be hefty +EV to that faction.

[LlamaFluff]

Closed and Open games differ a whole lot in how you approach them. Given that its an open the whole thing is based off of trust, which means if its all town they still have to end up trusting eachother and if its scum, gaining the trust of town can get them pretty far, especially if they have a voice in the back of towns mind they are able to continually push on.

Neighbors are hard to really pin down the EV of since its one of those things that depending on who gets the role, it has a whole lot more potential to be swingy or not. It requires being played correctly to actually be of a big advantage unless they want to take the risk of blindly trusting eachother. Either way neighbors in an open game is at least semi rare, so it would be interesting to see how they are adapted to that type of a situation and may tell us more about how the role functions.

[LlamaFluff]

Bumping this idea a bit more

Friends and Acquaintances and Enemies

3x Masons
3x Neighbors (Masons or Mafia can be neighbors) - Have Daytalk
3x Vanilla Mafia
4-7x VT (bring to 13 players)

Since its going to be a good way to learn about the EV of neighbors as well. I do sorta like the "daytalk (only?)" twist for neighbors since it really puts them on their own, removed from the rest of the scum group. Thats something im more willing to talk about, and I guess keeping it standard night would do the most for figuring out the actual strength of a neighbor.

Also since its been joked around a little in the other open thread

Nightless Vengeful Bedlam

1-3x Vengeful Townie
4-6x Vanilla Townie
3x Mafia Goon (or 2x goon 1x encrypt to balance daytalk strength?)

[LlamaFluff]

With the amount of wierdness in opens recently... maybe making Elmo's old Popcorn Mafia an open might be something to look at. For those who havent been around long enough to remember it was

8x Vanilla
4x Goon

Nightless, No Lynching

Pregame scum votes to give townie a gun. They have X time to shoot. If shooter hits scum they shoot again. If shooter hits townie, the townie becomes new shooter. Timeout results in suicide and scum vote on new gunholder.

Basically classic nightless with a twist, but with site meta so different from original run im not sure how most would deal with just sitting around.

[LlamaFluff]

Yeah thats why I dont post running out the door...

Town A shoots Town B results in Town A dying and Town B becoming shooter
Town A shoots Scum B results in Scum B dying and Town A remaining shooter

Otherwise yes, obviously broken. Think in its first itteration town won D6/D7 or so, ive debated running it again in the somewhat near future. Meta shift over last two years may benifit scum though

Original game.

Its basically 8:4 nightless with a twist

[LlamaFluff]

Well obviously the "equal or outnumber" standard win condition for scum applies to stop it from being impossible for scum to win. Its probaby town sided to the point where I wouldnt aruge against it being a 7:4 setup, but I think 8:4 nightless works fine, which is similar to this except with a constant confirmed town kingmaker.

[LlamaFluff]

(8:4 nightless is considered to be balanced by the bye.)

I don't agree.

Its one of the "balanced" but not

balanced

setups.

The popcorn aspect raises a few problems where you have to be more sure who to shoot. If you are wrong on complete VI, they now have a vig shot. Do you do something different if your scum read has your town reads as their suspects?

I think its a slight town sided game, but not by enough to not give it a trial run or two.

[LlamaFluff]

Five-player no-death

3 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Goons

Nightless

When a player is lynched, they flip and can't be lynched again, but can still talk and vote. A faction wins if all members of the other faction have been lynched.

I think you would need lynched scum to be removed from the game for balance to actually work or once they get lynched it essentially messes with lynch threshhold since stumped scum can just quicklynch any town who hits L-1. Then again this is probably town sided to start at 60% win chance. Just if its a 1v1 endgame it essentially is one bad vote from any of two players loses and thats a tough pill to swallow.

It just suffers from the 'hard to have balanced small game' syndrome.

~~~~

That said... maybe a different smaller setup like

1x Doctor or Cop
1x Nurse or Deputy
5x Vanilla Town

vs

1x Gunsmith (positive on Cop/Deputy) or Pharmicist (positive on Doc/Nurse)
1x Goon

Just a rip on old F9

[LlamaFluff]

That said... maybe a different smaller setup like

1x Doctor or Cop
1x Nurse or Deputy
5x Vanilla Town

vs

1x Gunsmith (positive on Cop/Deputy) or Pharmicist (positive on Doc/Nurse)
1x Goon

Just a rip on old F9

1x Mafia Gunsmith
1x Mafia Pharmacist

Can't kill and investigate in one night?

Not sure, I lean yes because if goon is lynched day one its going to be near impossible to otherwise win. Even then its going to be rough given dual confirmed roles.

What's a mafia pharmacist do? I've never seen that role before

Invented role. Basically a gunsmith for doctors. This would get something like "has medical equipment/does not have medical equiment" depending on if they hit a doc/nurse or not.

with 7:2 setup and two semi-confirmed scum is going to have an uphill climb but its a 50% chance backup role is useless and they in 75% of cases will be able to find at least one role.

Worst case scum scenario would be something like cop/deputy vs pharmacist which having the investigator roll opposite of both town roles is a 25% chance (12.5% each way), which is same as hitting both.

[LlamaFluff]

@Cheery Dog: Oh, yeah, you're right

2 Mafiosi

2 Bulletproof Hunters

5 Townies

Notes:
Hunters have one shot daykill, but do NOT have a vote. Daykill does NOT end the day.
In order to win, hunters need to hit scum with their daykill.
Hunters lose if they hit town with their daykill.
Hunters exit the game upon using their shot.

I dont like due to luck involved. It has the same flaw as AitP has in that someone can essentially claim scum D1 and win due to luck of a pick. I mean, I could technically go "Shoot X" first post as a hunter and I have a 22% win chance. Its not *high* but its possible.

I would say include hunters being able to win if they are alive when town achieves their win condition. Otherwise its just unfair to them.

The C-14 modification one isnt that bad either. Its just C-14 that gives a little more edge to the scum (maybe).

[LlamaFluff]

But Soft What Light Through Yonder Window Breaks

1 Mafia
1 Traitor
5 VTs

-If a VT is lyched, then during the night phase they select a player. If the mafia does not kill during the night, targetted player will die.
-During the night, the Traitor targets who they believe the Mafia is.
-During the night, the Mafia can either kill someone or target whoever they think their partner is.
-If the Mafia and the Traitor both target each other and they both survive the night, they win the game.
-If Mafia dies, the game continues but is nightless.

Traitor claims D1, or even gets lynched D1, and its over 50% scum win rate. It may have some sort of potential (traitor knows mafia, mafia can kill or attempt to recruit) but scum argueably should make it not mafia immediately since they win more often then not doing such.

[LlamaFluff]

So friends and enemies varients (one talked about already)

~~

Friends and Enemies and Acquantiences

3x Goons
3x Masons
7x Vanilla

Three randomly chosen to be in Neighborhood as well (Vanilla/Mafia/Mason Neighbor flip).

~~~~~
Enemies and Enemies

1x Mafia A 1 shot Vig
1x Mafia A Goon

1x Mafia B 1 shot Vig
1x Mafia B Goon

7x Vanilla

Mafia factional kill only can kill rival mafia
Instant action resolve night (daytalk enabled)
Vig kill can hit town or mafia (exists to stop scum about to lose from clearing enough for forced win)

[LlamaFluff]

orciM nepO aifaM esreveR

2 Mafia Goons
7 Vanilla Townies

Nightless.

By itself this is a 73% scum EV (7!-3!)/(9!-5!) = .277 town win chance.

However, town has a 1-shot factional ability it can activate by a vote. If the majority of townies vote for it as a revival has been achieved, the revival is "free": if it's on town, everything proceeds as usual, but if it's on scum, scum doesn't win.

So if they hit town it counts to the win condition or no?

Still probably scum sided as a whole, but if that revive still counts as a town revived its about a 65% scum win chance randomly. If it hits SCUM then its down to about 62% town win.

Think it swings too much and scum wincondition is too easy to achieve.

[LlamaFluff]

If you required three revived town for the win, and made the 'voted revive' something that did not count to any wincon (alignment reveal only) it may work better but its still almost 60% scum win rate. Since scum have a 22% and increasing daily chance of winning.

The "revive" if it doesnt count can be used to just confirm someone who is a strong player but mistrusted or something to that extent.

If you only needed three good revives and there was the voted one that was 'safe' now its close to a coinflip, but im not sure a game that essentially is two lynches long is a good thing since just using the voted lynch on the strongest player D1 is going to be best as they are town where you are looking at a 53% town win chance or they are scum where it jumps to a 75% win chance.

Really if this was to work it probably needs to be expanded to three scum where two need to be revived.

[LlamaFluff]

Daytalk + no NKs on scum + choose secretary at start would me my preference for that setup, and I'd personally think it's reasonably balanced 10:3 and scumsided 8:3. I might be wrong, though; it's often hard to know about balance until a setup is run, especially when it introduces a new mechanic.

So you don't like the core swap idea? We could try it with or without it and see how things work out.

10 VTs still seems balanced I think? What are the win rates like for white flag? I'd guess that this would be fairly similar.

I just saw this in the queue.

I dont think its balanced. Town doesnt get any help against clean sweep (20% of games) to start. Even othewise its doesnt help much, there is a 51% chance of them being alive at a point two scum would win still, although it drops to 34% at only them. Given that its 100% at all scum win... im just not sure this is balanced and I would not want to ever be town in this setup, wouldnt want to be scum either but I would be really upset being town, lesser of two evils.

Getting something like 62% chance scum wins this playing around.

21% @ no losses
27% @ one loss
14% @ two losses

[LlamaFluff]

Im going to start requesting new mid sized open setups (11-15 players) as the start of the micro-queue has pulled away some of the popular setups.

If you have any good ideas lets here them

[LlamaFluff]

Im going to bring Popcorn Mafia back up again with only 11 players (7 town, 4 scum) because thats the only recent one that fits the size im looking for. It also has been ran once in the past as an 8:4 setup with a town win, so dropping the player could help quite a bit on the balance there.

7x Vanilla
4x Goon

Nightless, Daykill Mechanic

Goon Role (x4)

You are a Mafia Goon with XXX, YYY and ZZZ

Before the game starts, you must elect one townie to receive the gun.

You may talk with your partners <HERE> at any time.

You win when mafia make up at least half of the living players

Vanilla Townie (x7)

You are a Vanilla Townie

All you have is your voice for now

You win when all threats to the town have been killed

When town gets the gun:

You have the gun.

You MUST shoot another player by <Deadline>

If you shoot mafia, they will die and you will retain the gun. If you attempt to shoot a town aligned player, you will die and the gun will transfer to their possession

Basically modified kingmaker nightless

Mafia chooses first king, if king executes mafia they remain king, if they try to execute town they die and thier target takes over as king. If they time out the king dies and mafia elects the new king again.

Also going to throw out the following:

Double Tap

11x Town Two Shot Vig
2x Mafia Two Shot Vig

All players are One-Shot Bulletproof
Mafia have daytalk
Mafia have a NK, cannot use vig and NK on same night

[LlamaFluff]

Pick Your Poison

3 Mafia Goons
1 Cop
1 Doc
1 JK
7 VTs

Every day, mafia chooses whether the cop or both doc and JK will be active the next night. An inactive cop will get a random result, an inactive doc's/JK's action fails silently.

1) "Random" result is pretty bastard.
2) What happens if a PR dies? No more making roles inactive?

Pick Your Copoison

3 Mafia Goons
2 Cops
8 VTs

Every day, mafia chooses whether Cop A or Cop B will be active. An inactive cop will get a random result.

Same questions

1) Why the bastard result?
2) Does scum know who the cops are?
3) What if a cop dies?

Join Or Die

2 Mafia A Godfathers
2 Mafia B Godfathers
1 JK
1 Cop
7 VTs

If both mafia groups send in a "join request", they'll be joined and treated as one group (common wincon, common QT). However, they lose their nightkill and become Goons (i.e. can be found by the Cop).

This game suffers from scum joining up being massively unbalanced. Its against your win condition to not join as scum.

[LlamaFluff]

For Join or Die you better disallow no-lynching, otherwise joining is a death sentence with the cop still alive.

Yeah thats correct, I did miss what Emp said but basically scum taking a passive alliance of both "hunt the cop" until the cop is dead followed by allying is all they need to do for a quick win.

[LlamaFluff]

Okay with the "we need more mid-large open setups" call basically being ignored...

I put Popcorn Mafia in the queue because it was discussed recently.

I would like to hear some additional discussion on Double Tap from a couple pages ago. Again like Popcorn I see this as just doing well as a fun setup in the current site meta.

Additionally im going to pull this one up

Town (10)

1x Cop or Doctor
1x Deputy or Nurse
8x Vanilla

Mafia (2)

1x Gunsmith (positive on Cop and Deputy) or Pharmacist (positive on Doctor or Nurse)
1x Goon

[LlamaFluff]

Thats actually pretty different... also its too small of a game since im trying to increase the amount that are more than nine player (open queue instead of micro queue).

Also what CFJ said for Emp's setup. Town lynching SK early is basically turning the game into mountainous +1 scum. SK who is caught just claims SK and trys to force a 1:1:1 (and stops killing if there is one scum left).

[LlamaFluff]

You can add more people.

Vengeful scum starts falling apart pretty quickly.

I could see something along the lines of a variable

1-3 Vengeful Townie
7-9 Vanilla Townie

3x Goon

Working though. Venge-town enmasse would probably just result in a lot of anti-town play so the venge shot can be used. Overstocking with certain roles has already been tried a few times (Texas Justice) and tends to not work too well without some way to limit things.

Its the theory behind the Double Tap from last page. It basically takes the broken Texas Justice and retools it a bit to limit the "chain shoot" breaking call as that results in dead town and no one knowing who scum is in Double Tap.

[LlamaFluff]

I actually can see that expanding into a C14 offshoot

Something like

Two sets of (Fire Goon/Water Goon/Air Goon) + Two of (Fire Cop/Water Cop/Air Cop) + VTs

[LlamaFluff]

Well the "worst case" 5:2:2:2 can be a force loss for town without a mislynch so thats probably bad to start.

D1 - Scum A lynch
N1 - Three town death (2:1:2:2)
D2 - Scum B lynch
D3 - Scum C lynch
D4 - Scum A lynch
N4 - Scum win

Even with D1/D2 being both scum A, D3/D4 scum B its still a scum win with three town dying N1.

[LlamaFluff]

That's partly why I was thinking of making the scum being able to reduce their thresholds as well. But I can see your point

Maybe you can upgrade the old broken Fight or Flight to something where all players have unlimited commute/vig shots.

Like CFJ said, things like "who can reach a computer first" shouldnt factor into who wins a game. Reducing the lynch threshold does that.

[LlamaFluff]

Playing around with this

Alternating Mountainous

2x Mafia Goon (can only kill even nights)
2x Wearwolf (can only kill odd nights)
1x Odd Night Cop
1x Even Night Seer
7x Vanilla Town

Only nervousness is mafia should get something small to counter cop getting a shot off before they can even kill. Daytalk is too strong, limiting day talk to day one may work but is very unusual sounding.

[LlamaFluff]

give mafia a 1 shot roleblock or something?

It does shift things to skill based and that may just be the simplest option.

What if you randomised whether they're odd or even?

Point is to have the delay between cop/mafia. If cop claims day after they get a result, the immediately get NKed. If they hold onto it,then they get a couple more while dodging their scum even having a kill ability.

[LlamaFluff]

What about giving the Mafia some sort of minor crosskill protection, to make up for town's enhanced ability to pick on them? (Something like a Mafia Doctor who can self-target, but can't both protect and kill.)

Thats another point of the setup. If scum A loses a member, its bad for scum B to try and finish off the faction immediately as it leaves them in a very bad position. The two scum factions have to play nice with eachother to an extent to prevent the game from turning into a very tough win.

Point is to have the delay between cop/mafia. If cop claims day after they get a result, the immediately get NKed. If they hold onto it,then they get a couple more while dodging their scum even having a kill ability.

Strategy scenario, Cop get's a positive result day 1, then holds off on day 2. Reveal Day 3. Likely safe from the Werewolves kill as he is free to check another player.

Thats the point sorta. You get a guilty and do you risk holding it for another night or not.

Maybe seer head start is best way to start making this move towards balanced. Even if they hit wolf N0 a D1 claim gets them NKed right off the bat.

[LlamaFluff]

I keep coming back to "Night One Cop Blocker" as the better choice as it takes an element of randomness (N0 investigation) and at least transfers it to more applies (wolves have one night to seer hunt, seer has a day to form opinions). Otherwise you could end up with a D1 post one guilty followed by a quick D1 lynch N1 kill and two players are gone without the game hardly haven happened.

The N1 blocker at least makes it so scum/seer relies on read instead of luck.

[LlamaFluff]

They are but I think the difference is dropped a bit though as you can run something around....

1/13 cop claims
1/10 cop blocked (at random)
1/10 cop NKed (at random)

So thats 25% or so cop gets blocked/killed really. Which while still probably slightly at a disadvantage isnt end of the world and may be runnable.

[LlamaFluff]

Is there a reason you can't have seer and cop be Odd-Night, and both Mafia and Werewolves have Even-Night kills?

Mostly it was for removal of two kills on the same player and kill interferance with the investigations.

[LlamaFluff]

Not sure how AAs setup would ever work since if im reading it right anyone converted will be converted right back the next night.

Also the whole "no VT win condition" part.

Cults are very bad in most situations though, when there is constant conversion threat im not sure how anyone would ever want to play this game as there is no "good VT" play. VT is going to more or less have to act like survivors unless a faction is clearly winning and even then can be luck screwed over easily. I think most cult would need to be in a "pregame draft" type scenario and even then its tricky, maybe something like

Choosing Friends and Enemies

1x Mason Recruiter
1x Mafia Recruter
11x Vanilla

Mason Recruiter picks two players that WONT be masons (two masons are chosen from remaining pool randomly)
Godfather picks two players that WONT be mafia pregame (two goons are chosen from remaining pool randomly)

Going beyond that cult is something that can be very unfair to the recruits.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm considering running this one soon (either in the Open or the Theme queue depending on the mood of the higher-ups). I welcome some opinions:

"Forced cooperation"

2 Mafia A Goons
2 Mafia B Goons
7 Vanilla Townie
2 Power Roles (to be determined - i'm considering a pair of masons right now)

Unusual mecanisms:

Shared Nightkill:

The two mafias share the night kill and a quicktopic. In order to perform the nightkill, both factions need to agree on it. They can post anonymously in the quicktopic (and are advised to do so )

No Kingmaking:

If at any point of the game, the number of scum equals the number of townies, game goes in night-only mode. Both scum factions gain a kill (the shared night-kill disappears) and all town powerroles are disabled. First faction to destroy the opposing one wins. In case both factions are destroyed simultaneously, game is a draw between the two scum factions and a loss for town.

Im not sure how opening communication between the two would work.

I could see something with no communication but something like:

"Each member of each mafia has a NK, a kill only occurs if a player is targeted for a kill by mafia A and B in the same night". Some voyeur offshoot or something role could be added to that as a PR if thats what you want that sees what factions targeted a player at night. Any opening communication is just going to just cause the focalpoint of the game to be trying to read who the other side is by posts.

[LlamaFluff]

That's actually the aim of the setup: add a mini-game where scum try to perform their NKkill without leaking too much information to the opposing team.

There was a really old game where there were some known Scum-Town QTs. They never got used. I image this would be similar since scum wouldnt want to risk giving something away. Really just looking at posting patterns let alone wording/etc you could probably pick out who is talking if you know the "possibilities" or whatever.

Making it so factions have to more or less bet on who the others are targeting makes it cleaner.

You also can do something if you really want to play games with mafia

"Each faction has 50 points to spread out each night over as many players as they want, whoever has the most points combined dies. No more than 30 can be given to a single player any given night". Something like that scum can possibly use stats to read who the other scum are due to who dies comparing to their own points given.

Actually....

Buy A Bullet Mafia

2x Mafia A Goon
2x Mafia B Goon
1x Town Vig
1x Town Backup Vig
8x Vanilla Town

-Each Mafia faction has 50 points to spend a night on who gets killed. No faction may put more than 30 points to any individual
-Town Vig has 30 points to spend a night on who gets killed. All points may be spent on the same individual.
-In the event of one or more player being tied for most points to kill, ties are broken in following manner
1) Most points spent by any individual faction/vig
2) Most groups awarding points to player
3) Most points received over entire game up to that point
4) Random draw

[LlamaFluff]

Any game that can end on the first night is essentially out to start.

Anyway, I think Duck Duck Goose needs another townie. With extra townie it actually brings a scum dying due to PGO action to an extra lynch for town. As of now it has same numbers (ie lylo with one scum is at 4P instead of 3P) while with the addition of a townie it would have it at 4P lylo with no success and 3P lylo with town success.

Thoughts on doing one extra town?

[LlamaFluff]

Massclaim D1 almost breaks it.

[LlamaFluff]

Anyway, I think Duck Duck Goose needs another townie. With extra townie it actually brings a scum dying due to PGO action to an extra lynch for town. As of now it has same numbers (ie lylo with one scum is at 4P instead of 3P) while with the addition of a townie it would have it at 4P lylo with no success and 3P lylo with town success.

Thoughts on doing one extra town?

Bumping this as it has been a popular setup in the past but the way it currently is there I think its going to be heavily scum sided.

In a situation where scum never get killed at night, its a crushing 8:3 game where town has little if any hope of winning.

In a situation where one scum dies at night (say after a D1 mislynch) its a 6:2 start for the second day, which is still very scum sided as they only need two mislynches.

Essentially the PGO aspect of the game only gives town an extra mislynch is if TWO scum die at night. Even if you assume something like "Scum has a 1/3 chance of dying each night" you are looking at:

30% Scum never die at night
45% One scum dies

So 75% of the time town has only three mislynches to live on. 25% they have four.

If you want to say 50% dying first two nights:

25% Scum never dies
50% one scum dies

So thats the same odds actually just spread differently.

With the addition of the EXTRA vanilla townie though, with one scum death at night the odds are boosted.

Currently there are three mislynches with 0 or 1 death
There four mislynches with two dying

Revised its three mislynches with 0 deaths
Town gets an extra mislynch with any number of deaths

Scum is only punished with some extra revealed information when they kill a player acting. Its not a massive hinerance or something for them to actually be afraid of. When you add the extra player, they have more of a reason to actually play the WIFOM game since a bad call gives information and gives an extra mislynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Hmm as long as two goons are alive, tracker isn't a reliable way to clear someone.

Its a pretty good way.

A "nowhere" result is about a 80% town result. Same basic accuracy if you had a cop and GF in same size setup. VT lynched and NKed a "nowhere" result in that specific setup would apply to 3 town and 1 scum, so 75% chance town.

[LlamaFluff]

What Hoopla said regarding the PYP X/Y change.

[LlamaFluff]

Is 3:8 / 3:9 mountainous nightless considered balanced? Because this setup looks strictly better for the mafia than mountainous nightless given the mafia can choose to play it like that.

Its not, which is my arguement about adding more town to the setup.

If town PGO doesnt kill scum, then there is next to zero chance of town winning. Realisitically town will need two kills to win this setup. Which is probably why town has only won one itteration of this one.

Unless I hear something major against the addition of another townie I will go ahead and increase the amount of VT by one and try to get another run of the game up sometime soon.

[LlamaFluff]

Hmm... The gov is useful during the day, but not much else... You make a good point about the day phase. How about instead of night 2 vig i make it day 2 vig? Or if you think i should drop roles, which ones?

Thats still borderline role chaos.

Games that are "role madness" tend to not work well without some form of uniformity or at least predictability. When you instead make a ton of roles, especially killing ones, you are going to just inject the game with a TON of swing.

Probably the better question here is - "Why are you trying to change a setup that is balanced and popular"

[LlamaFluff]

Somthing ive been playing with

At core its 10x Town, 3x Mafia - Variable from there.

Town is guarenteed to have two of the following six roles (selected randomly)
-Goon Cop
-Roleblocker
-Innocent Child
-Tracker
-Bodyguard
-Vig

Mafia starts with all goons. They can choose to add on up to three of the following
-Bulletproof
-Role Cop
-Daytalk (passive - no encryptor)
-JOAT (1 Shot Strongman/1 Shot Ninja)

For each role the mafia adds (recipiant is random) town gains another random role.

That means setup can be simple as: Goon Cop, IC, 8x VT vs 3x Goon
Or PR heavy as: Goon Cop, IC, Vig, BG, RB vs JOAT, Role Cop, Goon (with daytalk)

Its basically an inital game for scum to see how heavy they want to make the game knowing what it can do for scum, while at the same time creates some of the gaming the setup moves later that we see in setups such as C9++ where to an extent you can confirm/catch players given that stuff becomes eventual impossibilities.

[LlamaFluff]

I like it.

How would this work? Would you send out the scum PM's and give them 48 hours to decide what to do?

Scum get 48 hours to pick if they want anything extra, after that all town PRs go out. Even the inital two are not told of their roles until after the scum choice period to prevent some form of game breaking.

[LlamaFluff]

Does the goon flip when daytalk is chosen show that power exists?

No. It prevents town from ever knowing exactly what roles were chosen by scum. That way town can never go "we have exacty X roles".

Do the mafia get to decide which of them gets what power role?

No. Its like how town doesnt get to choose who gets what role either, they just choose what roles (if any) they want.

[LlamaFluff]

I like the idea, but as the setup stands I don't think the scum would ever want to take anything (except maybe the daytalk). You're giving the town another role (all of which except Bodyguard directly help in killing scum), and in return you receive something that can slightly negate some specific roles that may or may not be in the game (bulletproof, JOAT) or allow you a little bit more knowledge of their roles (role cop).

Yeah thats the nervous part, taking nothing is probably the correct move for scum, even though history in things like Pick Your Poision shows scum usually choose suboptimally.

It creates a situation where no more than one scum can fakeclaim though really, so it basically will confirm two town. From there we have a breakdown of setups where some (lets say RB/Tracker) are going to be balanced to possibly townsided. Other setups (vig/IC) are going to be very scumsided.

Its basically a gamble because at every level of roles there are going to be draws that are more town or more scum sided.

[LlamaFluff]

Other option to balance my variable would be making it:

Goon x2
Traitor x1

Town x10

To start. Change scum power abilities to:

Bulletproof
Role Cop
Daytalk (passive)
Recruit traitor as goon pre-game
JOAT (1x strongman, 1x ninja)

With note of no abilites can go to traitor. Cap at three abilites taken. If recruited flips as "mafia goon" not telling of recruitment.

[LlamaFluff]

Can you recruit the traitor at a later time, or is it only an option pregame?

I still like the idea behind the setup.

Its only a pregame option.

Im more debating how to deal with traitor NK immunity really. If its a "recruit or not" option to start I actually prefer to not have the traitor be recruitable (although I would say being able to NK if all other mafia are dead is acceptable). Question is does the traitor get some form of NK immunity or not at that point (gut says no).

[LlamaFluff]

Other option to balance my variable would be making it:

Goon x2
Traitor x1

Town x10

To start. Change scum power abilities to:

Bulletproof
Role Cop
Daytalk (passive)
Recruit traitor as goon pre-game
JOAT (1x strongman, 1x ninja)

With note of no abilites can go to traitor. Cap at three abilites taken. If recruited flips as "mafia goon" not telling of recruitment.

Bulletproof is super weak, given the odds of a vig are low, and that on a failed vig shoot, you'll end up dead anyway (vig would eventually claim the failed shoot, if no RB claims to be responsible, you are dead meat). I'd remove it, and give 1x doctor to JOAT. Giving scum the possibility of a roleblocker is also an option.

Bulletproof (as it flips BP) also counteracts goon cop, may be better just to replace Bulletproof with Godfather though to clarify that and not have to worry about flip chains.

Maybe make it

Town x10
Mafia x3

Mafia composed of

2x Goon
1x Traitor (1 Shot BP)

Mafia can elect to add up to three of the additional powers

Change a goon to Role Cop
Change a goon to Godfather (Bulletproof)
Change a goon to JOAT (1x Strongman, 1x Ninja)
Recruit the traitor as Mafia Goon
Enable daytalk for the mafia team

Town has two of the following powers:

Goon Cop
Roleblocker
Innocent Child (Game start reveal)
Tracker
Bodyguard
Vigilantee

For each role the mafia selects, town also receives an additional role.

All modifications to roles are given out when the game begins, including the guarenteed two non-VT town roles

No roles may stack (no Vigilantee Innocent Child or Role Cop Godfather)

If both goons (or modified versions thereof) die and the traitor was not recruited - the traitor will gain a factional nightkill.

Mafia has 48 hours from distribution of alignment to choose roles.

[LlamaFluff]

If there is one thing to be learned from variable setups scum pick (like Pick Your Poison) - scum routinely choose suboptimal choices.

[LlamaFluff]

Its a situation where if scum know its role heavy the RC starts dropping in usefullness a bit. Its probably better than the GF still, but when half the players are town you dont need as much PR hunting assistance.

Im thinking Day Talk and maybe JOAT is all scum (should) be taking, but playing it minimalistic would be better I think as it also allows for more fakeclaims.

This would also need a game name for the creative types.

[LlamaFluff]

Im going to start looking more indepth at expected setups for the still unnamed one that I have been talking about over the last few pages.

If anyone has any more comments regarding the balance or if you have a name please let me know now.

[LlamaFluff]

Arms Race?

We need a wordy creative type in here.

[LlamaFluff]

Once I get a "second" on a name (except PYP... because scum dont pick towns roles) I will start making a wiki article for it and getting it ready for a trial run

[LlamaFluff]

So you have a compulsive nk and an optional nk and im assuming you are allowing a joint win for last 2.

X amount should be 9 or 10 imo. Assuming mislynches are blown sequentially 9 would give 2 ml and town can earn more by lynching a scum d1 or 2

With 10 vts same deal except town and scum can play with the lynch tempo

SK kills mafia N1. Best move, so mafia is forced to basically play lyncher to SK D1. Only way to counter this is a mass "If I am mafia X is SK" massclaim D1, that fails long run too.

Also if SK or mafia are going to get lynched whats to stop them from just giving up the other player?

[LlamaFluff]

1 cult recruiter

1 diviner (knows cult recruiter and all cult members as soon as they are culted. Counts toward cult:town ratio as cult.

Wins in place of cult if not culted/lynchedbefore cult win

)

1 cleric (if targeting the same person as cult recruiter, target dies as town. Cannot be culted.)
1 martyr (can kill himself day or night to reveal the role of another player)
7 town vanilla




Cult not only have to shield their leader, but in a twist of gameplay, they actually have to scumhunt the oposition, the deviner

Game related pms allowed regardless of current alignment. Said pms may be referenced in game (eg. Unclaimed cleric gets a pm from cult attempting to co-opt him --- cleric cannot be culted and outs the pm) .

if cult recruiter is lynched: cult may no longer recruit, but remain alive to try to win by lynching. in night actions martyrs self kill comes first, so if he is culted. On the same night he dies as town

I wanna play this... Only time its been played i was the game mod ;-;

callllling all adventurous mods!!!

Issue with setup

D1 - Cleric claims
D1 - Martyr targets random non-cleric (1/9 hits cult leader)
D1 - Lynch (1/8 hits cult leader)
N1 - Cleric continually targets D1 Martyr target - two confirmed town always alive

So im not sure how this works well when almost 25% of the time town wins D1 without even scumhunting. Problem is town is going to be hard pressed to win any other situation as if cult leader makes it more to D3 town essentially cant win, even if they hit recruiter there its more or less a 3v6 nightless.

It may be a "fun" game but its not fundamentally sound or balanced at all.

[LlamaFluff]

So you have a compulsive nk and an optional nk and im assuming you are allowing a joint win for last 2.

X amount should be 9 or 10 imo. Assuming mislynches are blown sequentially 9 would give 2 ml and town can earn more by lynching a scum d1 or 2

With 10 vts same deal except town and scum can play with the lynch tempo

SK kills mafia N1. Best move, so mafia is forced to basically play lyncher to SK D1. Only way to counter this is a mass "If I am mafia X is SK" massclaim D1, that fails long run too.

Also if SK or mafia are going to get lynched whats to stop them from just giving up the other player?

Not sure i understand why killing a jointable player would be optimal. I was assuming a joint being accessable with my analysis... Otherwise you are correct - neighboring scum is counterproductive. as for the jointable "Team mates" not outting each other when being lynched.... Its called sportsmanship - if i was a mod and saw anyone outting another faction when they are in autoloss for the sake of doing it with no possible benifit to themselves i wouldnt allow them to join future games.

Its basically this:

Mafia cannot win (and will lose) if the SK doesn't get lynched D1. To stop this from happening, there needs to be a "if I am scum X is partner" claim to stop the SK from killing mafia upon them being lynched next.

If you are going to say 10 town... you can probably assume no more than 8 players get claimed as a partner here, and mafia cant lie or they get NKed the first night. So you are going to have quite a few clear off the bat.

Also if your faction is in a force loss situation... why not help town as scum? You aren't going to be playing against your win condition at that point or anything. At times you are in a spot that you cant win but you do have sway over the way the rest of the game goes. That shouldn't ever come into play though because of chaining which to every faction (except SK) is optimal for D1.

Game is broken badly.

[LlamaFluff]

I would never use that strat and i doubt anyone with half a brain would either. Martyr is infinantly more valueble late game and cleric claiming prevents cult from the chance of a miscult/outting themselves to the wrong person.

Martyr is like a day vig, yes they are more powerful late but they can be taken out before that point. If the martyr gets recruited its all over right there.

It also prevents any possibility of being a step ahead of the cult mentality to prevent cult conversions due to cult knowing the person who can "save" a towny and how he thinks, and the inverse not being the case.

If martyr uses his action the correct play is to always be on that player as cleric because it confirms them as town and makes them remain town.

Your strat is a day one all in gambit and nothing more.. You are also not factoring in cults opposition, which will lead cult to not culting late game if they havnt culted or lynched it yet.

That doesn't help the fact that lets say recruiter makes D3. You now essentially have lets say 10 alive where only 6 are town aligned. Even if scum stops recruiting its going to be tough for town to actually win the game given the absurd level of accuracy they will need, even taking the semi-scum player into account. The longer it takes for the CL to die, the harder the game will be for town to win. D2 is the absolute latest martyr should act and even then you are basically taking a "if they get recruited N1 scum win" gambit into effect.

[LlamaFluff]

The NEW Twin Trap

1x Mafia Roleblocker
1x Mafia 1-Shot Ninja
3x Compulsive Fruit Vendors (Fruit does nothing)
2x Ascetic Townies
1x Tracker
1x Watcher
If the watcher targets an ascetic townie, the watcher always receives "No Result."
If the tracker targets a player who proceeds to target an ascetic townie, the tracker always receives "No Result."

Bumping my own post.
And

The New Twin Trap v2

1x Mafia Goon
1x Mafia 1-Shot Ninja
1x Mafia Roleblocker
3x Mandatory Fruit Vendors
2x Ascetic Townies
3x Vanilla Townies
1x Watcher
1x Tracker

D1 massclaim.

Game over.

Too many unique roles with guaranteed presence in the game.

[LlamaFluff]

An unkillable confirmed townie just strikes me as something you really shouldn't have in a game. Making him convertible would solve the issue.

With no investigative roles and no mafia to counteract cult, i really dont see it as a problem... It was actually my solution to the first draft being too cultsided and not wanting to create a mechanic dependant setup. The only real issue is that towns sucess late game almost entirely depends on the martyr being competent

Its still cult-sided with your change, if town doesn't lynch CL by second day they will probably not win.

If you want to force game more to town try and limit the amount of power the CL has somehow. That can be done by either limiting their recruits for the entire game or something like that.

Also if the anti-cult-third party thing can get recruited they have another gamebreak at lylo. Basically lets say you are at CL+recurit+3rdParty+5 town alive.

Any town gets put at L-1 the 3P hammers with claim of 3P, they get recruited and win condition achieved. Which in your game makes that basically a D3 lylo. Where only way town can win is with four of five correct lynches in a row.

There is a reason (apart from most players here hating cults to start) that they are rare; they are amazingly difficult to balance - probably about on par with running a 3 scum faction game.

[LlamaFluff]

Multirole Mafia

A game for 12 players.

3 Mafia
9 Town

There are 7 abilities to go around:
Inspect (Town - Alignment cop | Scum - Role cop)
Protect (Both - Doctor)
Kill (Town - Vig | Scum - Strongman mafia kill)
Block (Both - Roleblock)
Track (Both - Tracker)
Neighbor
Neighbor

Generate a random number from 1 to 3. We'll call it n.
Now, randomize your playerlist. Going down the list, give the first n abilities to the first player, the second, and so on.

If scum don't get any abilities, give 2 abilities randomly:
Roleblock (only if scum don't receive randomised RB)
Kill-Immunity
Investigation-Immunity

If scum get 1 ability, give one of the above.

If n = 1 AND scum get no abilities, give them all 3.

If scum get kill,

the ability is lost

their kill becomes strongman (doc bypass) for that scum member. If two scum are neighbor with each other, it is also lost. Both count for purposes of "getting an ability". Everyone who doesn't get an ability is considered vanilla.
This was played once in ye olden times.

Problem with this game to me is that we can end up with a setup where scum has basically everything.

Also "scum lose both neighbors" is a bad call since a scum neighbor flip confirms the other as town.

Again it gets bad if you are able to say scum "if have no abilities" flip because that confirms it to town which auto-confirms all roles as town.

Im just not seeing this produce balanced setups too often since there are a very limited number of setups which unlike most variables, scum cant draw an early game advantage out of too well as town instantly knows just about what is out there.

[LlamaFluff]

Two Chances

3 Mafia Goons
1 Tracker
1 Watcher
2 JKs

Every night, the scum has to send out one scum player to intimidate a town player. The target of the intimidation or the fact that it failed will be publicly revealed. Intimidation has no other effects. If scum doesn't send in an action, it'll be randomized.

The first town player lynched stays in game as confirmed town.

Day one massclaim. 67%+ town win.

[LlamaFluff]

Kinda spitballing something

Delayed Mafia

10x Vanilla Town
2x Mafia Goon

Mafia kill is delayed and resolves at the end of the following night instead (scum kill player A night one, player A dies at lynch ).

Basically taking mountainous and removing the D1 scumkill and somewhat nerfing subsequent kills.

[LlamaFluff]

I like the idea of delayed actions, but I don't think a mountainous setup is the place for it. Mountainous is frustrating enough without adding additional consternation for both sides.

With roles though you need to make them exceedingly week (or all delayed - that can work too) or scum are going to be in trouble.

[LlamaFluff]

There's also Timeshift Mafia. I actually designed this setup as part of a mish-mash game, and d3f3nd3r liked it enough to run it. All abilities were delayed, but the SK had a 1-shot timeshift that forced all abilities to resolve "correctly" (on the night they were used), a regular kill, and a 1-shot timeshifted kill (where only that kill resolved the night it was used).

I guess you can even add some roles to do something like

6x Vanilla Town
1x Macho Cop
1x Doctor

vs

3x Goon

With all actions being delayed by a night. Note 12P intentionally as while first day is 12 alive, D2 starts 11 alive (no kill yet).

[LlamaFluff]

Can you give an example of how the setup would work better?

Throwing this out there though:

Liability Insurance

1x Town Leader
9x Vanilla Town
1x Mafia Leader
2x Mafia Goon

Pre-Game town leader and mafia leader selects two players each they do

not

want to receive the following roles:

Cop
Vigilante

Once all the names are collected, the two roles are given out to two of the players still eligible for the roles.

Its basically a game giving scum and town a little bit of sway over who is going to get the role, letting them do things like keep the cop out of strong town player hands, or vig out of a player they don't trust. Same time scum can avoid those roles going to certain players.

Only two roles because town leader, while not publicized, is basically an innocent child.

[LlamaFluff]

Its basically a game giving scum and town a little bit of sway over who is going to get the role, letting them do things like keep the cop out of strong town player hands, or vig out of a player they don't trust. Same time scum can avoid those roles going to certain players.

unintended side effect is that a scum fakeclaim could be immediately shut down due to town leader unknowingly blackballing scum from cop/vig, which i don't think you wanted

Its actually far from the worst thing that can happen (as it catches the town who is essentially an IC).

What probably could (should) be done is give Mafia Leader investigative immunity.

The setup quickly turns into

Cop
Vig
IC (not public)
7x VT

vs

GF
2x Goon

That's probably going to be mild town sided but not by a massive amount.

Also scum (and leaders) cant draw PRs. Only the VT slots can get upgrades.

[LlamaFluff]

Also, re: Duck Duck Goose, which just had a game run:

Optimal strategy for this game has got to be for town to wait for MYLO to use their shots. Looking at everyone who shot pre-MYLO (and thinking on my modded game), town are bad at perceiving when they'll get NKd.

I think Lastsurvivor may be onto something here. Saving your shots so that you can definitely get an extra lynch probably outweighs the fairly small chance of catching a mafia member with your shot.

Town cant make that work because scum can just not kill that one night and you are in a crushing disadvantage game as town. Problem with DDG is that town basically NEEDS to have one kill hit an active PGO or they are going to lose. Recent tweaks actually gives the town a lynch if that happens making it somewhat balanced, but in a situation where it doesn't happen im not sure we are ever going to see town win outside of a massive scum blunder.

[LlamaFluff]

Scum not killing that night still gives the town an extra lynch, and a definite extra lynch may be worth more than the very unlikely possibility of a scumkill.

Its not worth turning very bad into bad instead of the leaving very bad as is or possible turning it into a mediocre situation.

Odds put it at I think 60-70% scum should die from a NK at random assuming six total uses of PGO-ness. This also gives town an extra lynch to work with as it knocks it from even to odd number of players alive. All players using PGO (assuming scum actually don't kill and never die post then) does basically the same thing but keeps an extra scum alive. Bit of a risk-reward, but what essentially is a 8:3 all vanilla is hopelessly scum sided.

This is one of those unique setups im not actually sure town can win without taking scum down through PGO actions. Just look at 8:3 which isn't even the worst case game, that's about balanced in a NIGHTLESS game.

[LlamaFluff]

In the interest of trying to create more 11-15P open games though

In Good Hands

10x Town
3x Mafia

On top of the lynch, players may vote through

Give <Player> <Power>

a tracker, bulletproof or roleblocker ability for the night during the day phase. Like lynching it requires a majority and locks in the player to role. No player can have more than one power in a night. If a lynch occurs plurality decides roles that have not reached a majority.

After night two the RBer ability is no longer useable.
After night four the BP ability is no longer useable.

Mafia have one group ability override shot, which can transfer a power to a player of their choosing for the night.

Essentially its:
N1/2: RB, Track, BP
N3/4: Track, BP
N5+: Track

As its all vanilla apart from that, I think it comes close to a balance. It also presents a very interesting mind game once a RB/Track disappears.

[LlamaFluff]

Maybe axe the override, but I think if used properly you can start sticking the town-VI reads with PRs, basically you are going to start creating scenarios where scum HAVE to kill off one of the PRs each night quickly so giving the town who you would like to see die those roles is probably a good thing.

Throwing powers at VIs/Scummy players is going to force scum to let two shots off or kill one of them.

Adding a doctor (or BG) unless it goes away very early swings it back the other way again quickly.

[LlamaFluff]

Also playing around with...

Forget Me Not

Town (10)

2x Amnesic Cop
1x Amnesic Cop or Deputy (random)
7x Vanilla

Mafia (3)

1x Messenger
1x Godfather or Roleblocker (Random)
1x Goon

Messenger is basically a fake Amnesic Cop
For those who don't know Amnesic Cop targets Player X and Y. The investigation result on X goes to Y

[LlamaFluff]

Fools for Thought

7 Vt
1 MSci
1 town neighborizer
1 odd fool
1 even fool
1 mafia RB
1 mafia goon

neighborizer chooses during start of day and night who to have in QT for next day
neighborizer may choose to have a new QT made whenever a new person is recruited.
Mad scientist targets 2 living players and is told whether or not the alignment of those two is SAME or NOT SAME.
Mad scientist may not select a target he selected on previous night.
fool reaching its win con ends game


it has been mathematically determined that the odd day fool does not have a statistical advantage due to the odds to get lynched increasing in time.

No.

Apart from the fact that its jesters (amazingly amazingly bad to start) you are creating a game that can end D1 (actually getting worse) where scum are forced to kill two players who are not even town aligned (still managing to somehow get worse) and town is basically in a crushing position to start the game. I mean... 9:2 is somewhat scum sided but you have two named town (essentially) from there, you have a (essentially) a cop... I mean. Scum HAS to kill four players at night unless town can get lucky enough to lynch a jester on the right day...

Im not even sure where the appeal in this setup starts and there are a ton of glaring flaws to deal with. Are the jesters supposed to make this more scum-sided or something? I mean... the cop hits "same" N1 they just claim and bang-bang you have four confirmed town voting block.

Way too many issues, factions can hold the other hostage with the jester, unbalanced, fast finishes, forcing large numbers of scum actions... not really sure where to start even finxing something like this.

[LlamaFluff]

Friends and Enemies went from 10:3 to 8:2:2 with the addition of the werewolves.

That setup probably needs more town too.

[LlamaFluff]

Oh, sorry. King+Guards win when Revolutionaries die, Revolutionaries+town win when king is dead. The King does not know who his guards are.

Sounds like a boring game for town.

Despite all its flaws at least AitP had something to do for each player. That and the whole "lynchpin role" thing doesn't tend to work well given the gratuitous amount of swing attached to it. Not even 100% sure it can be called mafia given the king is an uninformed minority.

Then there is the fact that best town can do is a N3 win (assuming no king killing guard) while at that point randomly scum is up to about 20% win chance.

Biggest issue is "what is the point of town even doing anything" though. Its been the complain about any game using this type of thing in the past. VT has no motivation to do anything, guards have no motivation to do anything. Just cant see this game actually functioning even without trying to address balance issues.

[LlamaFluff]

I have an open set up I would like to mod when I get to the queue, can anyone give me their thoughts on its plausibility or imbalance or anything?

Vigilante Justice

7 1-shot vigilantes
1 1-shot bulletproof mafia godfather
1 mafia goon
1 1-shot bulletproof werewolf leader
1 werewolf goon
1 3-shot serial killer
1 sane doctor
1 naive doctor - will fail to protect target

Special Rules
1. Mafia can only kill on odd numbered nights, Werewolves can only kill on even numbered nights
2. A killing role who was targeted by another killing role will not have a successful kill and will die instead. (i.e. if player A targets player B, player B targets player C and player C targets player D, only player B will die)
3. If two or more vigilantes target the same person, the vig kill will not work but target will still be susceptible to factional or serial kills. Likewise, if the mafia or the werewolf and the serial killer target the same person, the factional kills will fail but the vigilante kill will still be effective. 
4. If two killing roles target each other, neither will die
5. Doctors will not be told of their effectiveness
6. Werewolf leader and Mafia Godfather can only make factional kills when their goons have died

D1 vig claims, lynch as normal but have three non-doc players chosen by town forceably target vig. That vig will live, any "vig" who didn't die is confirmed scum. Its getting to the semi-game breaking stage of things if you are calling scum a killing role.

[LlamaFluff]

Well from what I could tell if we do something like

A->D
B->D
C->D
D (vig) takes no action...

We end with A B and C dead and D alive. This would confirm D town and any of ABC being scum (who wouldn't kill) are all going to be alive. Im not sure how much it breaks but I think there are going to be ways to start trying to game the setup.

Im going to be making another push for setups so will go through things. For those who have the time and prospective setups I encourage you to run them during marathon.

[LlamaFluff]

Im not quite getting it then...

Are scum "killing roles"?

Also there is the problem that there are five anti-town roles to 9 town roles.

[LlamaFluff]

I still think the scum:town ratio is a bit much.

Even if we get generous and assume both scum goons die N1 and N2 (they would have to if they are getting vigged?) and only two town get NKed in that time, we are probably looking at about probably around a 5:1:1 on most cases. Worse than that quite a bit. It probably needs to get one of the factions removed. Even then im not sure its going to balance well because of the number of vigs.

[LlamaFluff]

The problem is anything with a large number of killing roles (Texas Justice, Fight or Flight are two off the top of my head) have been broken mid-game.

[LlamaFluff]

Bumping this one because I think it has potential after thinking about it for awhile.

Cold Stone

1 Vanilla Cop
1 Cop
3 VTs

1 Goon
1 Godfather

?

Similar to Carbon 14, but both cops are useful. Just differently useful. Vanilla Cop is more powerful obviously. Maybe make Godfather variate with a Goon?

Edit:

Cold Stone V2

1 Vanilla Cop
1 Cop
3 VTs

1 Goon
1 Godfather OR Goon

Playing around with a Friends and Enemies...

Enemy of My Enemy

9x Vanilla
--
1x Mafia Goon
1x Mafia Amnesic Seer (Targets X and result goes to Y - both chosen)
--
1x Wolf Goon
1x Wolf Amnesic Cop (Targets X and result goes to Y - both chosen)

Basically playing the scum against eachother. Wolf can find mafia. Mafia can find wolf. Can either pass the results to their partner, give results on their partner, lots of room for different plans of attack.

[LlamaFluff]

Sorry, but what is a vanilla cop? Can't find it in wiki.

Vanilla Cop gets if a role is vanilla or not (positive on VT and Goon). In that setup it would get a negative on the Cop and Godfather.

[LlamaFluff]

Friends, Enemies and a Telephone Mast

3 Masons
1 Encyrptor (Gives both Mafia and Masons day talk)
6 Vanilla Townis

3 Goons

(Yes I know its just F and E with an Encyptor but sshs...)

This probably about works because as it stands F&E is a slight town lean. It would be interesting to see if this is a good way to solve that. My only fear is you are creating a named townie as well so I would be on the fence of keeping it at 6VT or dropping it to 5.

[LlamaFluff]

Well you never lynch the uncounterclaimed encryptor because they would be confirmed town.

[LlamaFluff]

I think town has a disadvantage in EoME, as I don't know why you wouldn't just give the results to your buddy as scum. (and they wouldn't reveal it to town even if it was the other team - if they want them dead, they're just night kill them.)
I guess it would get interesting if either goon dies though.
Overall it's a multiball mountainous feel to it.

I can actually see the motivations in giving results to players they think are town

1) It can "clear" a partner if they target them - Mafia Seer targets the goon, sends to town, town gets the Goon is "Not Wolf"
2) Town are likely to claim the result if its a guilty, causes instant lynch

This may need more VT, but I don't like following the friends and enemies tactic of giving confirmed town in masons when there are "cops" to start.

Um, for EoME, what format do results get given in? Scumfaction/NotScumfaction or Town/NotTown?

Seer gets Wolf/Not Wolf
Cop gets Mafia/Not Mafia

[LlamaFluff]

Politics

1x 1-shot governor/1-shot doublevoter (player chooses)
1x tracker/cop (random)
5x VT
1x mafia godfather / 1-shot ninja (depends on the second PR)
1x mafia goon

Problem with the GF/Tracker is that you are basically nullifying the town PR. If its a GF than the cop has only one they can get a positive on. If the ninja they at max can be tracked twice really.

That said im not sure what purpose the Gov/DV will serve more than a named townie for the most part. That and I have no clue how a DV is a one shot role in this case. Is ita role that only get a DV on the day they choose? If so when is it chosen? Can votes be split, are public, etc?

[LlamaFluff]

v1 is definitly better.

This.

I will try and coordinate with quadz since its technically a mini over where a trial run will take place unless someone brings up a problem with the setup over the next few days.

[LlamaFluff]

Except that Towns LOVE to shoot (MAD, EBHOBANHAR, etc). Nobody is going to sign up for that game to play the safe odds.

If you can break it so not shooting works then it still fails. If mass claim followed by optimal play is a forced win it doesnt work. We do see setups like Hard Boiled there where Choice 1 >> Choice 2 still have town willingly go with Choice 2 at times.

[LlamaFluff]

Will I get moderation experience for running an 11p Nomination Mafia as an Open?
Similar to this game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=17862

I don't think this is balanced.

8:4 is somewhat townsided already in a nightless game. I don't think the nom mechanic is even close to be worth losing a scum

[LlamaFluff]

For some reason, the Fire and Ice Open setup has such an abysmal Town win rate. And that includes Open 476, where the town managed to lynch Mafia for the first 3 days, yet managed to make a 3p LyLo situation with only one mislynch.
When I skimmed this topic, I didn't see anything about adding an extra VT to Fire and Ice.
Right now, town can lynch Mafia 3 days in a row and still make it to a MyLo situation.
START: 8 v 2 v 2
Day 1: Ice Mafia Lynch - 8 v 2 v 1
Night 1: 2 Town Kills - 6 v 2 v 1
Day 2: Fire Mafia Lynch - 6 v 1 v 1
Night 2: 2 Town Kills - 4 v 1 v 1
Day 3: Ice Mafia Lynch - 4 v 1
Night 3: Town Kill - 3 v 1

With 13 players, town can afford an extra mislynch.
START: 9 v 2 v 2
Day 1: Fire Mafia Lynch - 9 v 2 v 1
Night 1: 2 Town Kills - 7 v 2 v 1
Day 2: Ice Mafia Lynch - 7 v 1 v 1
Night 2: 2 Town Kills - 5 v 1 v 1
Day 3: Fire Mafia Lynch - 5 v 1
Night 3: Town Kill - 4 v 1

Im fully willing to give Fire and Ice another townie and see how it runs.

9x Townie

1x Mafia Goon
1x Amnesic Mafia Seer (gets wolf/not wolf)

1x Wearwolf
1x Amnesic Wearwolf Cop (gets mafia/not mafia)

If no one has issues with EomE I may give that one a trial run given the interest that it appears to have spawned

[LlamaFluff]

Docs and Blocks Mafia

3 town Doctors
3 town Roleblockers
2 Mafia Goons

I think it would be extremely chaotic and fun. RB's could block the Doc that might have saved the NK. When there is no NK it will be hard to determine if it was a save or a block and who was targeted etc...

I'd appreciate thoughts on if there needs to be changes for balance purposes.

(If a similar idea has already been proposed, I apologize but I wasn't going to read 200+ pages to find out.)

Day one massclaim. Scum in major trouble as town can just coordinate to make the game nightless.

[LlamaFluff]

Well D1 massclaim ends with one of the three following:

3x Doc, 5x RB (in which all three doctors are confirmed town) - All Docs protect in a circle and systematically kill all of the RB claims
5x Doc, 3x RB (all RB confirmed town) - Lynch Doctor A, organize so all RBers have a unique mark. Only way a kill can happen is if scum was unblocked, rinse and repete
4x Doc, 4x RB (most likely so I will advance purely with this)

4x Doc all claim, and protect in an A->B->C->D->A circle. For one of them to die, the one who protected them must be scum. RBers go in a pair A-B and C-D. Same principle applies. So you basically are playing two mini-games of 1v3, if scum gets lynched in the first two of either group they forceably lose the game. Even first three I think may be a dooming loss meaning town odds with ideal scum play probably start at the 25% mark as you are going to lynch in the Doc pool there as RB pool has itself all locked up, meaning leaving the cleared doctor at the end (worst case) again has a random 75% town win. As you need that twice... you are looking at about a 1/16 chance of scum winning if they play perfectly.

Basically the more unique roles you have the worst off scum are going to be.

If you did something more like

1-4 RBers
1-4 Doctors
2 goons

Random draw PRS to have a total of 7 (think that's better for this game either way) may be workable. That many kill stoppers though you are going to need more scum because you approach nightless where scum need over 1/3 of the game. 7:3 may work with randomization of the RB/Doc numbers to prevent massclaim being an instantly breaking strategy (see Diffusion of Power for this done well)

[LlamaFluff]

What you said about massclaim makes sense now, thanks.

If you did something more like

1-4 RBers
1-4 Doctors
2 goons

Random draw PRS to have a total of 7 (think that's better for this game either way) may be workable. That many kill stoppers though you are going to need more scum because you approach nightless where scum need over 1/3 of the game. 7:3 may work with randomization of the RB/Doc numbers to prevent massclaim being an instantly breaking strategy (see Diffusion of Power for this done well)

If you randomly drew 1 RB and 4 Docs would you have 2 VT's to make up the difference?
If you ended up with 4 RB's would that produce any action resolution problems?
I agree that adding another mafia member would be a good idea.

Having a "variable but total equals X" type setup allows for scum to be able to hide in fakeclaims easier as there are multiple possible setups.

If you draw 3 doc and 2 RB with that and scum break apart to claim one RB and one Doc, you cant tell where scum is fakeclaiming because there is no one on one situation.

[LlamaFluff]

I was semi-serious. I think it will be broken by prefclaim.

I agree. It can kinda be broken by that claim. Maybe not 100% but it can in part.

[LlamaFluff]

My take on Venge mafia

5 Desperado Townies
2 Blue Mafia (GF and goon)
2 Red Mafia (GF and goon)

if you are lynched you don't get a venge kill.
No faction kill for mafia
Desperado gets day Vig kill powers... If they target scum the scum dies, if they target town the desperado dies.

Town shoot randomly. Town wins.

For failed shots (town ABCDE)

Town A kills B (A dies, B confirmed town)
Town C kills D (C dies, D confirmed town)
E is only remaining player with day vig powers, proves it with a kill of any scum and then town just lynches the rest. Only way that doesn't work is day vig powers don't recharge in which case its a draw.

[LlamaFluff]

2 Mafia Goons
1 1-shot Mafia Strongman
3 Compulsory Seraph Knights
1 Odd-night Vigilante
1 1-shot Cop
5 Vanilla Townies

Day one massclaim.

Scum immediately in trouble.

[LlamaFluff]

Well if scum all claim VT, that would make the lynch pool down to eight players.

That's not happening. It probably is going to be a breakdown of

7x VT (two scum)
4x Doc (one scum - the strongman claim)
1x Cop
1x Vig

As claiming cop/vig is suicide - meaning one confirmed town sees day four

Doc AB on Cop
Doc CD on Vig (note the 50% chance of where scum ends up swings this hard, they may have a small plus if the scum is drawn to the cop)

D1 VT pool lynch
N1 Cop dies, VT pool vig
D2 at (worst case) - Vig, 4x Doc, 5x VT claim (two scum), VT pool lynch
N2 Doc dies
D3 at (worst case) - Vig, 3x Doc, 4x VT claim (two scum)
N3 Doc dies (vig dies Doc C/D confirmed scum), VT pool vig
D4 at (worst case) - Vig, 2x Doc (one scum), 2x VT (scum win)

So unless im missing something scum needs to dodge five straight shots as all of their kills are forced

If all scum claims VT... you have 4 mislynches to win as scum in this setup
At all scum claiming VT there are 5 available

the vig/cop will drop that to 4 (vig N1/3 shot, cop clear - no obvious win for scum as both results garner same response, I think getting rid of vig is better though as it forces it cleaner)

So scum basically have to get every single lynch possible to win this way.

Town just clears too much out the gate by claiming. Scum having kills forced in open setups isn't always bad. When they have to dodge this many mislynches though it is.

[LlamaFluff]

I think Perpetual MyLo should be added to the Open game roster.

I also agree. It's an interesting/fun setup.

Is it balanced though?

Im getting 19% town win chance.

[LlamaFluff]

It depends on how it's played as to what win chance it has.

7/5

58% chance of lynching town
42% chance of lynching scum.

From there it stays around the same odds.

Actually it changes fast

7/5 = 42/58
6/4 = 40/60
5/3 = 37/63
4/2 = 33/67
3/1 = 25/75

Town wins in lynch patters of
SSS
SSTS
SSTTS
STSS
STSTS
STTSS
TSSS
TSTSS
TSSTS
TTSSS
Town wins at 24% of the time

[LlamaFluff]

Well if you are going to no lynch you do it day one... 34% win chance that way, 27% if you wait to day five. Yes no lynch D1 increases town win chance by about 50%.

Maybe due to request/popularity I will let it do some trial runs though, im just a little hesitant because it seems very unbalanced. Especially the 22% clean sweep for scum chance. It just seems that as long as scum just basically decide to ignore all associative things (they gain little from working together really as they have a 2/3 win chance if no one reads their role) they should win.

[LlamaFluff]

Unless I hear otherwise then I will move this (which needs a name):

A 1-shot or full bulletproof townie shouldn't be in this setup at all. We get enough problems with newbies trying gambits or lying as town without experience or knowing how to do so already. Do we want to start their first game by having the IC say "Ok, while SOMETIMES it's ok to lie as town...."

I think this is very exaggerated by the bye. I certainly don't think it's worth mentioning in the absence of dueling set-ups like Tracker-Doc vs. Tracker-1-shotBP.

My current best attempt is probably the following:

• 	A	B	C
  1	Town Jailkeeper	Mafia Role Cop	Town Back-up
  2	Vanilla Townie	Town Cop	Mafia Goon
  3	Mafia Goon	Town Odd-Night Bulletproof	Town Tracker

I like the Odd-Night Bulletproof more than 1-shot because it provides a similar level of protection while making it less likely that town will have to no-lynch; it also makes it easier to play around town fake claims, if that were to come up.

And Perpetual Lylo to the open queue for trial runs soon and get wiki pages made for them this weekend.

[LlamaFluff]

Also playing around with something like the following:

Pill Pusher Mafia

Town (10x)

3-4x Town Drug Dealer
1x Town Pharmacist OR Town Junkie
5-6x Vanilla Town

Mafia (3x)

1x Mafia Drug Dealer
1x Mafia Junkie OR Mafia Pharmacist
1x Mafia Goon

You are a Drug Dealer

Each night you may target another player with pills. These pills will keep them alive if anyone attempts to kill them during that night. However if a player takes more than two pills in a night, they will overdose and die.

You are a Junkie

Having been on pills for most of your life, their side effects don't do much for you. You may take up to three pills in a single night before you would die. Additionally you may target a player each night, if they are a Drug Dealer you will steal and take any pills they would have given out.

You are a Pharmacist

You may target a player each night and learn if they are or are not dealing drugs

[LlamaFluff]

Llama can we get feedback on Vi's setup proposal?

Will take a look at it sometime tonight (or tomorrow depending on life stuff)

[LlamaFluff]

The Jig Is Up 6p

4 Town Vigilante Roleblockers

2 Mafia Goons (Have a factional Track Kill, they choose someone to kill and find out who that player targeted.)

Daystart

I have zero clue what the EV on this is.

Circle targeting I think breaks this depending on how things resolve.

No lynch

A->B->C->D->E->F->A

[LlamaFluff]

okay new one

Fucking Police State

3 Mafia Goons/Spies
2 Cops
7 Vanilla Townies

Mechanics:

-Mafia Goons have daytalk.
-During pre-game, the Mafia decide which members go undercover. Undercover members are immune for investigations and flip as Mafia Spy, but they have no access to the factional quicktopic (the mod creates a new one for in-game chat) and can't perform the factional kill.
-Every night, the Goon(s) may call back one or more Spies. This turns them back into Mafia Goons at the start of the next day.
-The game becomes Nightless + No No Lynch when all Goons are dead.

This might actually be a somewhat interesting setup.

Big question for balance would be

1) When do spies get "called back" and how does that resolve with the investigate action
2) Can a spy re-goon themselves at night?

[LlamaFluff]

Problem with eavesdropper role is that you should be able to piece together who the scum is by wording and time of posts. Scum in this setup should just not talk until the eavesdropper is dead as they would have the advantage in the setup with roles stripped out.

[LlamaFluff]

I would be worried about a D1 massclaim as scum there.

[LlamaFluff]

Which role(s) do you think would amount to scum claims? Roleblocker would be my thought, and I was originally thinking this could be offset by the part where scum choose one role that won't be in the game at all and so function as a safeclaim. I'm not sure which other ones would be dead giveaways.

Well its WIFOM, but you are basically going to lock scum into either trying to get lucky or going for one of the claims they grabbed. So if the were taking what they grabbed you need to have a role that isn't going to just be proven false, which is not the same as the best roles to keep out of the hands of scum.

It might be balanced, but it will swing depending on what town drafts and if scum doesn't just use their "safeclaims" it creates a situation where it can be unbalanced.

Maybe even doing something as simple as guaranteeing a variable amount of VT (2 or 3) could help as scum at least have a door number three to use. Right now its something like: Scum remove, JK and RB, must use JK/RB vs Scum remove JK/RB, claim Hider and Commuter, hope they get lucky. This way they could also have "drawn" VT as there will at least be a few of those in the game.

[LlamaFluff]

I don't think your choice of roles are wrong, but when there are a lot of roles you tend to make the game next to impossible for scum. In this one I just see that immediate massclaim creating a situation where scum are going to be cornered even before having to worry about how they play. When you add VT roles, it gives scum an extra spot to hide in. Its like C9++ to an extent. The early claim is a good tactic for town, but due to there being VTs even in the most power heavy of setups, there are places for scum to hide if they don't feel like they have enough of a grip on the game to claim a PR.

With the current setup you are forcing them to claim a PR which is going to be pro-town in the long run since scum can be caught by claiming something town drew, by a town PR, or by not being able to prove their role.

[LlamaFluff]

Its defensiveness is too swingy, I'd just claim d1 and either coast to victory as confirmed town or die and kill whoever I think is scum.

Yeah they basically get to take a player hostage if that is how they choose to play it.

I think 'optimal' may be a quick cop claim and then a follow the cop, so scum would need a way to counter a break, but a counter in general. A one shot works best, track or watch. Watch is more direct track may require the ability to have at least a base read on the other PRs. I think that track may be better just due to strength of scum in a 2:7 setup.

[LlamaFluff]

5 VTs
1 Red Mafia
1 Blue Mafia

Mafias know the identity of each other
Nightless
Town wins on 1:1:1

Thoughts?

Doesn't work.

What is to stop mafia from outing other mafia if they get ran up?

Maybe some sort of a 6:2:2 nightless would work, but not if they know each other.

[LlamaFluff]

Playing around with this idea:

Farmer's Market (11P)

9x Town 2-Shot Fruit Vendor
2x Mafia 2-Shot Fruit Vendor

Players are only notified if they receive fruit. Getting three in a night gives the same message as getting one.

Mafia can NOT kill and give fruit in the same night, even if they are the only member of mafia alive.

It basically takes mountainous, makes it a little more interesting. Town can either mass circle give fruit the first two nights (blocking scum from being able to kill in theory) or can hope to hold shots until late in the game where with a scum dead any successful actions clears a player.

[LlamaFluff]

Scam kill whoever they were meant to be giving a fruit to, that town member is then unable to report.
(Would then be able to get an easy mislynch if the scums were actually next to each other, and this plan was thought as how it happened by town.)

That still gets them caught

ABCD are playing, A is scum and they are going in a circle

A kills B.
C, D, A get fruit
Only way a kill happened outside of a false report was A killing.
So A is forced to fake not getting anything, so they can turn it into a flip.

[LlamaFluff]

Alrighty

Welcome to me trying to do some stuff here

1) New setups

I want to look into adding the following three setups as trial runs:

Baby Genius but with 2 more VT
Farmer's Marker
Sharing is Caring has potential but needs refinement on how things resolve when more actions are submitted than shots remain.

2) Setups to modify

I want to replace Faith Plus One with what is suggested as Hope Plus One

I want to give +2 VT to Masons and Monks since town has been just ripped apart in all runs of it, even though it is a unique spin on the ever popular Friends and Enemies.

If anyone has thoughts let me know. I will be trying to make the changes, adding setups and doing general clean up in the following weekends.

[LlamaFluff]

Any suggestions on Sharing is Caring resolutions? Could just prioritize Cop over Jailkeeper over Vig, but if that's kind of eh I'm up for suggestions.

I kinda like the suggestion of CD where the result becomes "all actions fail" when more shots are attempted than are left.

[LlamaFluff]

Obviously Cop is the strongest early game, and if I were Vig/Jailkeeper I may no action just to get as many cop reports as possible.

As game winds down though Jailkeeper becomes a lot better.

See this again assumes that town will be smart about things like this. You balance for correct play, just assuming it will occur is a bit of a reach.

[LlamaFluff]

Well, that doesn't mean the power roles don't have to use all shots night 1. Vig could be certain someone is scum, and vig them, one scum dead (assuming no doc protection on that player). Jailkeeper could jail another, no mafia kill and 50/50 that person is protected town/blocked scum. Cop could then catch the last mafia

Im just saying how many times would you trust both the JK and Vig if all roles were alive to actually not use their actions? There are some setups like Hard Boiled where town plays directly opposite of what they should do from a numerical standpoint at times because its "less fun".

You balance for town playing correct, I just don't trust PRs not to be selfish here.

I think you need to replace the doctor or watcher with something a bit stronger for the mafia. The game can end in 2 days with proper town actions and the mafia can't really stop that at the moment. I'd say replace the watcher with a framer. The watcher and rolecop essentially preform the same function in this set-up.

Well any game with a vig can end on day two with "proper" actions. I could see trying a framer instead of watcher here though.

[LlamaFluff]

Giving mafia gun would just end up with them giving it right back to whoever shot unless you are also going to modify rules to allow scum to be gun bearer

[LlamaFluff]

Reopening my

C18++

setup for consideration.

It is an experimental multiball setup based on C9++. Unlike that setup though, it is Modular Open, particularly with respect to the town roles.

I will look over it more later.

Your original one was interesting and makes use of two things that tend to be popular in opens (C9++ and Multiball) but was a little... over the top. Was still trying to make notes on it.

[LlamaFluff]

@LlamaFluff: How's the review going? Anything I could do to make it easier?

Sample roles since you are using a lot of terminology that I think I know what they are but need to be sure before I would say that it seems like a good idea.

Confirm following terms for me:

Wolf Master
Wolf Stealth
Wolf Shaman
Stalker
Strong Will

It looks like a beyond role madness setup... but still kinda interesting and less breakable than C9++ is for town.

[LlamaFluff]

So tracker fails against wolf and stalker fails against mafia? Both are successful against town?

Also do they only fail against the kill or do they fail against a roleblocking role as well? Like if Wolf gets RB, blocks X and kills Y while being targeted by the tracker, what happens?

[LlamaFluff]

Is http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... of_Command still a viable setup?

It was never an approved setup. If anyone wants to run it as a micro they can, but it is not guaranteed to be balanced, unable to be broken or anything like that.

@Kav - If tracker fails against any wolf, and stalker fails against mafia I have a problem with the setup because those roles are suddenly exceedingly powerful. Lets say tracker gets "Targeted X" from their result. They basically have a "confirmed not wolf" result at that point. They become more of factional specific cops than anything else.

I could maybe see a "tracker is unable to track wolf kill, stalker is unable to track mafia kill" but I more like them being both "trackers" but named differently so town can piece together what was rolled, which is one of the strongest powers the town has in C9++, figuring out the setup so they can catch fakeclaims.

[LlamaFluff]

Been playing around with a mountainous with a slight vengeful aspect type game

Shell Game

9x Vanilla Town
2x Mafia Goon

When a player is lynched they submit a name of a player they want to die and chooses if they want it under shell 1, 2 or 3. Scum submits the name of the player they want to kill which goes under remaining shells and pick a shell. The name under the shell chosen is the player who dies at night.

Essentially its mountainous, except about 1/3 chance that the NK is a vengekill instead. May be enough to turn 9:2 into more of an even setup than scum sided.

[LlamaFluff]

Odds and Evens

1x Mafia Odd Night Goon (Only can kill odd nights)
1x Mafia Even Night Goon (Only can kill even nights)

7x Vanilla Town
1x Town Tracker

@Flay - I would say at 11 it should be good. Maybe I can see justification for 9/10 player because you can say that you are guaranteeing the most obvious town lives each night, but that feels like a stretch.

[LlamaFluff]

So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.

In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Thee are three neighbourhoods of four. There is one to two scum per neighbourhood (three is impossible).

If there are three neighborhoods of four and you require one scum per neighborhood, you can only have one in each. If it can be 0-2, then you get swing of what role scum get. If you get two in a vig group, they can control that very quickly and then you have scum with two kills a night.

Either way this has a high threat of game breaking when you start requiring X scum in a group because with a few flips scum can be caught or a few town force cleared.

Been playing with another Friends and Enemies variant

Making Friends and Enemies

3x Goons
2x Masons
8v Vanilla Town

Masons have the ability to recruit a new member on N1. If they attempt to recruit scum, the recruit fails. If they attempt to recruit town, the player is added to the masonry as "Recruited Mason".

Basically F&E with the masons being a one shot cop joint instead who confirm themselves to an innocent.

[LlamaFluff]

lol how to balance

Royals

2 Town "King" Masons (receive "Town Royal" role PM)
1-2 Town "Queen" Neighbors (receive "Town Royal" role PM)
1-2 Town "Prince/Princess" Lovers (receive "Town Royal" role PM)
X "Peasant" Vanilla Townies
[maybe a Town Universal Encryptor?]

1 Mafia "Queen" Neighbor (receive "Mafia Royal" role PM) OR 1 Mafia "Prince/Princess" Lover (receive "Mafia Royal" role PM) OR 1 Mafia Goon
2 Mafia Lovers

Spoiler: Role PMs

You are a Town Royal.

You know that <Player> is your twin Royal. They may be a "King" Mason (Town), "Queen" Neighbor (Town or Mafia), or "Prince" or "Princess" Lover (Town or Mafia). Only when you die will your specific identity, but not partner, be revealed.
You may talk with each other privately during the Night here: <url>
[opt: If the Town Universal Encryptor is alive, you may also talk there during the Day.]

You also have the ability to vote during the Day.

You win when all the Mafia are eliminated.

You are a Vanilla Townie.

You have the ability to vote during the day.

You win when all the Mafia are eliminated.

You are a Town Universal Encryptor.

As long as you are alive, all roles with private chat capabilities may talk during the Day.
You also have the ability to vote during the Day.

You win when all the Mafia are eliminated.

You are a Mafia Royal.

You know that <Player> is your twin Royal, and is Town. They may be a "Queen" Neighbor (Town) or "Prince" or "Princess" Lover (Town). Only when you die will your specific identity, but not partner, be revealed.
You may talk with each other privately during the Night here: <url>
[opt: If the Town Universal Encryptor is alive, you may also talk there during the Day.]

You know that <Player> and <Player> are Mafia with you, and are Lovers with each other.
You may talk with each other privately during the Night here: <url>
[opt: If the Town Universal Encryptor is alive, you may also talk there during the Day.]

You or one of the other Mafia may choose to kill someone during the Night. PM the Moderator your choice.

You also have the ability to vote during the Day.

You win when the Mafia make up 50% or more of the Town, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

You are a Mafia Goon.

You know that <Player> and <Player> are Mafia with you, and are Lovers with each other.
You may talk with each other privately during the Night here: <url>
[opt: If the Town Universal Encryptor is alive, you may also talk there during the Day.]

You or one of the other Mafia may choose to kill someone during the Night. PM the Moderator your choice.

You also have the ability to vote during the Day.

You win when the Mafia make up 50% or more of the Town, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

You are a Mafia Lover.

You know that <Player> is a Mafia Lover with you, and <Player> is a Mafia Royal/Goon.
You may talk with each other privately during the Night here: <url>
[opt: If the Town Universal Encryptor is alive, you may also talk there during the Day.]

You or one of the other Mafia may choose to kill someone during the Night. PM the Moderator your choice.

You also have the ability to vote during the Day.

You win when the Mafia make up 50% or more of the Town, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

basically i just wanted to play around with the idea of 3 town pairs (or 2.5 town pairs) where there's a slight obscurity to the role PMs. idk how it would work out in practice but hey gotta find something besides sleeping to kill time at 4 in the morning. also not sure about encryptor, or town-scum ratio??

gosh this is such a weird idea i d e k if open setup stuff yeah.

This feels like it will be damaged by early massclaim.

If its playing with neighbors you could even just do something very crude and say all players get a neighbor partner then balance it out from there. When you start guaranteeing things like there being a scum neighbor you enter a situation where them getting lynched early will basically end the game because of how many it clears.

[LlamaFluff]

Baby Enough Scum 8P

1 Mafia Doctor
1 Mafia Goon

1 Serial Killer

1 Town Doctor
4 VTs

• Daystart
  
• The mafia team do not possess a nightkill
  
• Serial Killer must nightkill every night
  
• Serial Killer wins 1-1-1 endgames and 1-1 endgames.

This is actually probably better balanced.

I like it.

Get the feeling town may get burned quite a bit though since they essentially have three lynches to hit the SK. They miss him by that point they are going to need some doctor help. You also have the thread of the SK being lynched before Town Doctor essentially creating a nightless game with an Innocent Child.

Will sleep on it but this sounds good

[LlamaFluff]

Want to hear what people think of this concept. Obviously the powers would have to be tweaked for balance but I'll think this is a good basic idea.

Jack Be Nimble

13 Players

1 Mafia Ascetic
1 Mafia JOAT (3 Powers)
1 Mafia Goon

2 Town JOATs (3 Powers)

8 Vanilla Townies

Mafia JOAT Powers are randomly selected from the following pool:

• Roleblock
  
• Strongman Kill (Variant: Protection/Bodyguard/PGO Immune)
  
• Ninja Kill (Variant: Watcher/Roleblock Immune)
  
• Bus Drive
  
• Role Cop

Town JOAT Powers are randomly selected from the following pool:

• Cop
  
• Watcher
  
• Jailkeeper
  
• Friendly Neighbor
  
• Bodyguard
  
• Vigilante
  
• Roleblocker
  
• Commuter
  
• Kidnapper
  
• Vengeful Self (permanent)

To clarify, the powers are selected from a pool, meaning that each power can only appear once.

First instinct is to kill off the Ascetic for scum.

10:3 with two town PRs and one scum PR is already strong for scum, they do not need anything else. Only reason I im not immediately pushing for more town power is that you have two confirmed town and scum will have a very difficult time fakeclaiming JOAT in this situation.

[LlamaFluff]

2:5 with IC is pretty townsided, but it also gives Mafia incentive to not lynch the SK early which I think is pretty cool.

2:5 without the IC is pretty townsided for that matter when you consider its nightless at that point. I think 8:4 nightless got scrapped after town went something like 6-1 in it with only scum victory being a F3 one. Problem is its not going to be easy for scum to not only correctly peg the SK but also stop their lynch.

Im not sure how the setup gets MORE balanced, but I think it swings pretty hard depending on how long the SK lasts. If the SK goes in the first few days, town have the edge. If the SK hangs around late, scum have the edge. Its simple, its fair, but its swingy.

[LlamaFluff]

Maybe +1 VT and change the goon to One Shot Vig?

[LlamaFluff]

A 15 player game with 4 scum, 11 town.

Scum don't know the names of all of their teammates, so it works somewhat like a traitor mechanic. Let's call the scum players, A, B, C, and D.

A receives a role PM saying that he is scum with B, C, and another player whose identity he will not be told.
B receives a role PM saying that he is scum with C, D, and another player whose identity he will not be told.
C receives a role PM saying that he is scum with D, A, and another player whose identity he will not be told.
D receives a role PM saying that he is scum with A, B, and another player whose identity he will not be told.

So, it is somewhat like a traitor mechanic but everyone has a "traitor" who they don't know about. That would make for an interesting (and possibly complex) set of interaction analysis if someone flips scum. Scum will flip as "A", "B", "C", or "D" so the town will be aware of the cycle so if two scum flip "C" and "B", town will know that B was aware of C but C was unaware of B.

As for the nightkills, I have two possible scenarios. The first is to run is as a setup where the night kill decision circulates. A decides on N1, B decides on N2 etc. The second is to run it as a nightless game by altering the numbers.

I have been thinking about this, and I like it as nightless because you are already going to have to need no night discussion because that makes it easy to just circulate the information.

That said im not quite sure on the numbers. At 2T:1M town has had a historical edge, so im thinking it would probably be either a 8:4 or 7:4 setup. Maybe 7:4 because scum would have a hard time actually getting a quick hammer in to win due to threat of hitting their unknown. Scum only need three mislynches still, but that last one becomes harder to pin down.

Need more setups of this size at least going through trial runs so want to see if this is actually workable

[LlamaFluff]

Being town in that game would suck ass.

Yeah, its not quite a traitor, but not quite normal mafia.

Wondering if it can work, but its a possible jumping off point.

[LlamaFluff]

Guess Your Role Mafia

Every town player will submit a name at night to use their ability on, but the players won't know which ability (if any) they have. If they want to make smart decisions, they'll have to use the results they receive, in conjunction with the night results, to determine what they are. Of course that might tip the scum off on who their best kills should be...

Players are given results in the form of "success" or "failure". Any role without specific results will receive "Success" if they are not targeted by anyone, "Failure" if they are.

1) Sane Cop: Success = Guilty, Failure = Innocent
2) Doctor: Success = Saved someone from death, Failure = Didn't
3) Vigilante
4) Neighborizer: One neighborhood for all targets, neighborhood continues if neighborizer dies
5) Bodyguard
6) Doublevoter (both votes count for same person, but VCs will show only one. If this player's on a lynch wagon it's like the victim of the wagon is Hated)
7) Gunsmith: Success and Failure as per wiki page
8) Hider: Will NOT be affected by other's abilities being used on their target.
9) VT
10) VT
+ 3 Mafia Goons with nighttalk and a factional nightkill which they have to specify who uses

There will be a night 0 which will not actually cause any deaths, but D1 will start with results and a "flip" showing what would have happened if N0 was real.

Flips will show alignment but not role.

Think this will work?

No lynch
All players target same player each night
Doctor protects from vig kill, cop gets free investigation

[LlamaFluff]

Cop doesn't know who he is. No one knows.

Either way N1 you have enough roles with results to massclaim and clear whoever was targeted. I still think it breaks because you get a negative you know you are a cop. If you get positive you have a guilty or are doctor.

For example all players target Player A first night, player B second.

You get "negative" and you know you are a cop/gunsmith and just targeted town.
You get "positive" and then a "negative" next night, you know you caught scum first night

Under your plan, and assuming the targeted person is town and not one of the PRs in this group: Both the vig and the scum target that person. Bodyguard takes the first hit, doctor protects the target from the second, bodyguard gone. Hider confirms target as town. Next night scum kills that person, or town keeps protecting that person, and for all they know, they're protecting a VT.

So doctor doesn't protect all? If a player is targeted by a doc, vig,and BG... how are you resolving that?

Either way you have three roles that are self-confirming through result. The vig (basically self confirming). Neighborizer (self confirming).

Scum isn't going to be able to hold out long, and with some coordination town should be able to lock this up unless you are resolving things oddly

[LlamaFluff]

Being town in that game would suck ass.

Yeah, its not quite a traitor, but not quite normal mafia.

Wondering if it can work, but its a possible jumping off point.

Would it be too much in town's favor to do something like...

Let's say Alfred is scum. He is scum with Bobby and Conner. Secretly buddies with Denise.

Let's say Alfred is lynched day one. He is revealed to be "Mafia A" meaning he knows buddies B and C.

Let's say Connor is lynched day three. He is revealed to be "Mafia C" meaning he knows buddies D and A. We know A was Alfred and thus we now know both of these guys knew each other.

?

I think that is required or the whole concept takes a dive because town doesn't get to know what information scum was missing. It would be like if you had a traitor and just flipped them as "mafia"

Roles are

Vanilla Town
Mafia A
Mafia B
Mafia C
Mafia D

Im just not sure how much damage the lack of information would do. I could in a nightless see it swing both ways depending on what happens in a non 3P lylo. If scum didn't hammer and it turned out the player was town, it can start giving town a bit of an idea about what was happening.

Just not sure if this works better at 7:4 or 8:4 nightless.

[LlamaFluff]

In the interest of trying to get some new open setups for 11-15 players I am going to try and revive:

Making Friends and Enemies

3x Goons
2x Masons
8v Vanilla Town

Masons have the ability to recruit a new member on N1. If they attempt to recruit scum, the recruit fails. If they attempt to recruit town, the player is added to the masonry as "Recruited Mason".

Basically F&E with the masons being a one shot cop joint instead who confirm themselves to an innocent.

Death and Taxes

v1.0

Vanilla Townie x7

Town Tax Collector x2

Town Homeless x1

Mafia Goon x3

• Tax Collectors target three players. They are informed of how many of their three targets pay taxes, but not exactly who.
• Mafia members and Homeless players do not pay taxes.

I have no idea how well balanced this is, but I like the general idea (

Mastermind

-style investigative roles).

If people have comments on these two let me know.

For Toomai's setup I think Tax Collector and Homeless need to be variable numbers (TC 1-2, Homeless 1-3 with remainder VTs for example) to stop the game from being claim damaged. Otherwise you are looking at something that with an early scum lynch (or just lucky N1 action) can be broken for town. Maybe make it a goon-goon-GF or TC for scum as well.

Its a good miller variant. Could just eliminate the odd flavor and rename TC a cop and Homeless miller to make it less alien.

[LlamaFluff]

Mr. And Mrs. Smith

14 Players

1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Recruitable Traitor Doctor

1 Bulletproof Serial Killer

1 Town Gunsmith
1 Town Knifesmith
1 Town Vig
1 Town Doctor
6 VTs

• Daystart
  
• Gunsmith gets a positive on Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, and Vig.
  
• Knifesmith gets a positive on Mafia Traitor Doctor, Doctor, and Serial Killer.
  
• 1:1:1 situation results in SK victory.

1) Can RB/Recruited Mafia act and kill?
2) If traitor has been recruited does he investigate guilty to gunsmith? If yes what if gunsmith targets him on night he is recruited?
3) Do doctors protect against multiple kills?
4) What happens if unrecruited traitor is only remaining mafia?

[LlamaFluff]

Town Macho Cop
Town Doctor
Town Tracker
Town 1-Shot PGO
Macho VT (1-Shot Fireproof)
Macho VT (1-Shot Iceproof)
Macho VT (1-Shot Fireproof; 1-Shot Iceproof)
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

Massclaim and you have way too many confirmed town running around. Lets say D1 is VT lynch and N1 two VT die... D2 massclaim is over a third of the game in 1v1 or clear.

Guess a better question is what type of modification are you trying to put on Fire and Ice. If its just "make it bigger" that probably isn't needed.

[LlamaFluff]

How does this Setup look, guys?

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Iced Mafia Traitor
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Traitor
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

You do realize fire and ice currently is: 8x VT, 1x Doctor, 2x Ice Goon, 2x Fire Goon

You are basically saying that adding: 3x Vanilla, 1x Macho Tracker balances the addition of two new scum for each faction.

Fire and Ice works well due to its simplicity of the multiball setup, but when you start adding more scum, you are going to need a lot more town (at current rate you would have needed about +5 VT instead of +2 and likely need to get rid of macho modifier.

[LlamaFluff]

Mainly I want it like a Large Fire and Ice where the NKs on each other turn into Cop guilties.

That's essentially what it was historically (NKs failed on opposite factions) but that was way too scumsided, so that part was removed. Then it was still too scumsided so another VT was added to the game.

Maybe you want to check out this as a jumping off point.

[LlamaFluff]

Can I run these in the open queue Llama?

They both look a bit swingy but seem fine. If you want to get wiki pages made for both of them I can try and get upcoming mods to run trial runs of them

That's a cool setup, who made it? And has it been played yet?

It was a setup I made a while ago, was ran a few times maybe half a year or so in the past but never seemed too popular so just got shelved.

[LlamaFluff]

C9++ variant thoughts:


1) Can you clarify what all of your roles are? I see people come in and have different explanations of what they are
2) While its rare to roll three of the same letter, I am not sure you realize how strong being told you guarantee that you are on that tier.
3) What is your ultimate goal here for setup? We have C9++ and JK++ already which are fairly solid even though can be pushed to town slightly with optimal claim patterns. This doesn't help with claim pattern and actually makes it stronger for town.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, what are your opinions on my Apocolypse setup and my ++ setup which is somewhere in this thread.

Apoc is broken to massclaim and nowhere near balanced/too many factions/etc

++ a few things

1) If we have a role on MS that is already what you are trying to accomplish, there is no need to change the name of the role.
2) You are really messing with some core mechanics and im not sure how I feel about that with relation to the balance of the setup.

If I can just talk about it:

The best thing about C9++ to me is information and trying to pin down the setup. If done correctly for town, it makes it very difficult for scum to get away with much. This setup drastically changes a few things, first is the way that scum flips effect the game. In the normal C9++ flips like a godfather point to both ends of the spectrum, RB flip rules out quite a few thing. This setup just gives so much to town and scum out the gate it feels a lot less like a variable setup.

Scum know within one PR of what town has, and for sure after first night. Town has a few roles that auto-confirm the number of letters drawn in its category.

As odd as it sounds C9++ is a very subtle setup, this just seems to rip all of that away and it should be a non-C9++ that just is its own type of variable setup.

Think town just knows too much as soon as a scum flip happens for this to work well. In C9++ town already can get a leg up if the play it and claim in an optimal way, this just seems like scum is going to get trapped amazingly fast as soon as one flips unless they have been lucky with few/dying PRs.

[LlamaFluff]

So I have a setup that I want it refined.

Russian Roulette

- 5 Town 1-shot Day Vigilante
- 2 Town 1-shot Self Day Vigilante

- 1 Mafia 1-shot Day Vigilante
- 1 Mafia 1-shot Self Day Vigilante

* Self Dayvigs will not know that they are self dayvigs.
* Mafia will know if they're self or not.
* Nightless

What I want to know the most is if this setup can be broken in any way.
And then balance, etc if possible. Probably too swingy to be called balanced but meh
(And before you guys go "lol how do scum win this", both times I ran this in this site were both scum win, with one of them being marathon with 6v1 variant)

The one I modded in micro not-so-long-time-ago mafias didn't know if they were self dayvigs or not.

Comments of everyone else aside, this does bring up a possibility for an interesting game. Something like:

7:2 vanilla setup. If town is lynched day continues. If scum is lynch it goes to night.

[LlamaFluff]

Been playing around with a C9++ variant...

Unusual Roles

Police Chief - Gets "Is a Cop" or "Is not a Cop". Result is not alignment determinant
Dirty Cop - No power. Checks as a cop to Police Chief

six coinflips are done, setup varies per results:

0 Heads: 2x Town One Shot Cop, 2x Mafia Goon, 1x Mafia Dirty Cop
1 Heads: 1x Town Cop, 1x Town One Shot Cop, 1 Mafia Godfather, 2x Mafia Goon
2 Heads: 1x Town Cop, 1x Town One Shot Cop, 1x Town Police Chief, 1 Mafia Dirty Cop, 1x Mafia Framer, 1x Mafia Goon
3 Heads: 2x Town Cop, 1x Town Police Chief, 1x Town Miller, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 1 Godfather, 1 Mafia Goon
4 Heads: 1x Town Cop, 2x Town One Shot Cop, 1x Town Miller, 1x Mafia Godfather, 1x Mafia Role Cop, 1x Mafia Dirty Cop
5 Heads: 2x Town Cop, 2x Town Police Chief, 1x Mafia Police Chief, 1x Mafia Framer, 1x Mafia Goon
6 Heads: 1x Town Cop, 1x Town One Shot Cop, 1x Town Police Chief, 2x Mafia Dirty Cop, 1x Mafia Role Cop

Needs work, but could be interesting.

[LlamaFluff]

Anarchy

16 player

Mafia Vigilante
Mafia Arsonist
Mafia Poisoner

Bulletproof Doctor
Poisonproof Poison-Doctor
Fireproof Fire Fighter
Tracker
Fruit Vendor
8 VT's

• Doctor only stops vigilante kills.
  
• Poison-Doctor and fire fighter can also stop the kill on the night of the death.
  
• Poison kills the night after it is given.
  
• Arsonist can set alight all players as many time per game as he wants but can't douse on the same night.
  
• Players aren't informed that they are doused/poisoned.
  
• Mafia have no faction kill.

Debating wether to make the immunities x-shot.

This could be interesting but I think it may be a little better if you just make all kills happen overnight (just flavored) because there is really no good reason for scum to use anything but "vig" kill. Just basically three mafia members and a doctor that protects against each kill type instead.

Fruit Vendor is just a named townie, seems out of place. Tracker is strong, but fine.

[LlamaFluff]

Another version could be:

Elements

1 Fire Vigilante
1 Water Vigilante
1 Earth Vigilante

1 Fire Doctor
1 Water Doctor
1 Earth Doctor
1 Macho Tracker
9 VT's

• The doctors are immune to their element and only protect from their mafia counter-part kills.
  
• All mafia take their kill each night.
  
• Mafias element is revealed on death

Thoughts?

Its interesting in theory at least, off the top of my head it could actually balance. Maybe its best to essentially say its same as Doctor + 2 Named Town + Tracker for that purpose against a three goon team as I think its exceedingly unlikely for town to successfully block a scum kill.

[LlamaFluff]

Mmm, mabye I should make the immunity to their own element 1-shot or take it away completely. Thoughts?

I would just take it away. The like the concept of 3x Mafia each with their own kill method + 3x Doctors, one that protects against each kill type. Its a low (but existing) chance of stopping a kill, but also some named townies.

Names townies are underused

[LlamaFluff]

Mmm, mabye I should make the immunity to their own element 1-shot or take it away completely. Thoughts?

I would just take it away. The like the concept of 3x Mafia each with their own kill method + 3x Doctors, one that protects against each kill type. Its a low (but existing) chance of stopping a kill, but also some named townies.

Names townies are underused

Thoughts on my most recent posted version?

Like Riddle is saying, its slightly breakable still through coordination. Works both ways though. All named town makes claiming harder for scum, but having the ability to choose the protection type can make it almost game breaking for town if scum does bad out the gate.

Basically its a swing factor. Naming townies (kill specific permanent doctors) creates a game where you are able to essentially predict the same level of balance either way. Creating the game where doctors can choose what kills they are protecting against makes it harder to win for scum if they lose a member, especially two members, early. Imagine the game where scum gets lynched lets say day one and on day two... last two doctors basically becomes BP and game is over. That many named town is already going to be hard for scum to combat.

[LlamaFluff]

Basically all of what BBmolla says. Also the fact that per your win condition a D1 lynch of either Pretender or King is lynched and the game is over as other faction just met their win condition.

[LlamaFluff]

Judge, Jury, and Executioner

Two stage mafia game

4 vanilla town

1 town judge
1 town executioner

1 town suspect

1 mafia goon
1 mafia suspect

Unique Roles

Judge - Approves all night actions and knows criminal identities (not affiliations)
Town Executioner - Town vigilante that can night kill convicted players
Suspect - A type of lynchee except one is innocent and the other is guilty

Two Stages

Suspects take two lynches to kill. The first lynch is known as the conviction, and the second lynch is a plain kill.
The first conviction serves solely to keep the game going upon a D1 correct lynch, and activates the town executioner power.
Lynching someone who isn't a suspect, for whatever reason, would only take one attempt.

Town Win-Con

Eliminate the guilty suspect

Mafia Win-Con

Make sure the innocent suspect is killed OR have more players than town

Generic Intro

The town is in uproar. [Insert Mod Here] was killed in a violent murder. The courts are vigorously trying to resolve justice. A jury of 4 townies are brought together to determine the fate of the two suspects, witnessed both at the scene of the crime by none other then the presiding judge. The forensics show that only one man was responsible for the murder, and may be connected with the mafia. The court must bring justice to the murder, by executing the man responsible. They must act quick. There's word that the mafia are planning to set their man free.

I think there are 5 scenarios this game can unfold under this set-up. 3 of them involve the judge claiming D1 and the last two do not.

Setup is just a coinflip. Suspect players both claim D1, game ends D1. Town really cant gain much more from anything else since multiple people already know who the two players are to start. As the Judge role knows both out the gate, the whole setup becomes just a "player A or B" out the gate. No town PR is ever getting killed or lynched so why not just simplify it and end the game D1 instead of just policy lynching the rest of the game first?

Anything else is just bad play for town.

[LlamaFluff]

Wouldn't it still be best to just have town suspect claim out the gate? I still have no idea how this turns into anything but an immediate 1v1 Town suspects claims D1, scum cannot get rid of them without a lynch (cant kill convicted), they will not ever be lynched without a counter.

[LlamaFluff]

I like the idea, but it's super scumsided.

I suppose so. I was thinking the mechanic could be used in a pro-town way, such as securing a lynch on a scummy-ish player while simultaneously protecting an obv-town/strong town player from the NK, but I'm probably overestimating the average town-skill that will be present in the game. I think the reason towns traditionally do so poorly in mountainous games is that scum has free reign to pick off the best/towniest players early in the game with no consequence/trade-off. There are consequences for their actions in this game and as such information will be given to the town from each flip.

Why not make it a SCIENCE type hybrid? That was always a somewhat scum sided setup. Going mafia daytalk + masons + mafia choose the table could be runnable since addition of two VTs will push it to town sidedness while the table could push it back the other way into a more or less even situation.

[LlamaFluff]

I really like the concept, but I am a little worried that these are all going to be slightly scum sided since each setup is a 12 player game with two town roles and a direct counter scum role.

Maybe set it up so unless town draws one of the strong role setups scum only is goons instead of picking up a PR. Design so something like 3 and 9 end up as goon instead or something along those lines.

[LlamaFluff]

It's a nine-player setup.

That makes more sense then... I saw 9:12 and thought that was a play on 9 VTs in 12 players and saw 12 players as natural for a clock

Will look it at again with that in mind

[LlamaFluff]

The Great Fishing Expedition

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Goon

Town Day-Fisherman x 4
Townie x 3

Fisherman fish for their pr during the day and may use their successful "catches" at night.

Even and known split for VT/FM is going to ask for an early massclaim that is going to get scum in a hole very fast, it may be nearly an auto-loss if scum gets lynched day one. At most you are going to need something like a

Fish (2-4)
VT (3-5)

[LlamaFluff]

I still don't understand what a fisherman does.

I think independently of what it does the setup is threatened by a massclaim early putting scum in situations where (assuming town eats lynch and NK) you are going to have a D2 massclaim where its something like "1 of these 3 are confirmed scum, 1 of these 4 are confirmed scum" where a scum lynch clears off a couple of players instantly.

I have seen it in the past be something like a JOAT that randomly can gain a one shot PR so assume its something similar. Like after the day action it RNGs one of (No Power/Cop/Doctor/Vig) for the next phase

[LlamaFluff]

Been playing around with a Popcorn variant...

9x Vanilla Town
2x Mafia Goon

*Day works as normal
*At nights mafia have the power to give a VT a gun to shoot for the night. If the VT hits town, the shooter dies. If the VT hits scum, the shooter lives and scum dies.
*During one night of scum's choice, they can kill as normal instead of giving town a gun

[LlamaFluff]

Also been trying to play around with a kingmaker type game

2x Mafia Goon
8x Vanilla Town
1x Town Successor

*At start of each day town has 14 real life days to vote on a king.
*King has remaining time from 14 days + 72 additional hours to execute a player
*If no one is elected by deadline game goes to night
*If king does not submit a kill game goes to night
*An election happens each day
*If King is ever night killed the Town Successor (if alive) automatically becomes king the following day with no election occurring
*Nights occur as normal
*Self-voting for choosing who is king is allowed

[LlamaFluff]

My question is, what motivation does the mafia have to kill a king if a new one is elected each day (when doing so will only bring out a confirmed town)

To get rid of the confirmed town really. Sure it means they have no idea what is going on with respect to who will be controlling a kill, but that could be a good or bad thing.

[LlamaFluff]

I like the idea but want to think on it a bit as some of the setups town is going to be deceptively strong (like 4 and 11), and a few others I see scum as having quite the leg up to start (2 and 12). Maybe it all balances out to the point where you realize that due to the setup you are going to have the C9++ situation where if town figure out the setup they are playing at a good time they get a huge boost to the game which helps counter some of everything.

Do like this one. Just want to sleep on it.

I would remove informing mafia of wolves existing or not though unless you are aiming to tell mafia exactly what setup number they are playing out the gate (as apart from 2/13 and 9/14 they know exactly what setup they are in)

[LlamaFluff]

3

Mafia

3

Mafia

3

Mafia

3

Masons

1

Gunsmith

6

Vanilla Townies

Day chat happens
Each group (mafia and mason) have 1 gun and 1 bulletproof vest each.
No one person is assigned these items, they can rotate them between themselves.
However one person CANNOT wear the vest and carry the gun at the same time.
Gunsmith only gets a guilty on someone carrying a gun the night of the investigation.

We just finished the first game of it on my other site (we ran it with 5 VT instead of 6 VT and town won)

I have issues where town could lynch correctly every day and lose. You are not only making them catch scum but requiring cross kills and likely town to lynch scum in a correct order. Look at this (unlikely but possible) result:

D1: Mafia A lynched
N1: All three masons die (3-3-2-7 setup now)
D2: Mafia A lynched
N2: Three VT die (3-3-1-4 alive)
D3: Mafia A lynched
N3: Two VT die (3-3-2 alive)

Its just one of those setups where town will need help from scum, so isn't really all that balanced if you are requiring anti-town players to just get unlucky with night actions to even have a chance.

You can probably spawn a unique setup where each mafia faction only has one gun, and if the player with the gun is lynched/NKed they lose the ability to kill as a faction (someone make this setup - seriously)

[LlamaFluff]

The Wiki page for Matrix 14 has been created.

LamaFluff, SB: can you explain why (2), (4), (9), (11) and (12) are unbalanced?

I don't think JOATs are overpowered in that form, all of their abilities are 1-Shot after all.

Setup 2 town has very little power (odd night watcher + BG) to make a dent in a 10-2-1 setup.
Setup 4 correct play is both cops use their action N1 and then you massclaim D2. Town should have at VERY least three clear players at that point, probably four.
Setup 9 town has a ton of good powers. I don't see a rolecop being of much use, and the JOAT only gets one strongman shot while rest of the actions aren't of much use.
Setup 11 again town just has way too much. They have a two shot BP in the commuter who again gets confirmed as town... so you are essentially in a 10-3 where town has three confirmed town (including watcher and likely a second in the backup). Scum just don't have enough to counter that to me when they only have a RB. You need to remember all PRs are essentially confirmed scum.
Setup 14 you have a Cop+Doctor with only a JOAT shot counter and also a odd night investigative role (essentially town get a 100% N1 investigative role).

These are all workable in a matrix type setup, but there are setups that would be called unbalanced in other setups. That's half the issue with variable setups though, you are going to get some setups that are just more unfair for a certain faction.

[LlamaFluff]

The Open Game for Large Elemental just ended with a town win, I think as a result of this that the Fruit Vendor should be added again. It weakens an otherwise very powerful tracker in certain situations.

Problem is right move likely will be to never act outside of some counterclaim situations and then you are a named townie which helps town even more.

Also all 3 masons cant die over night as one would be wearing the bulletproof vest.
when a mason or mafia group is down to just 1 person left they have to choose whether they want to be smart and wear the vest or be brave and take a shot.

I just am not sure town really has much of a chance. While it may not be a likely occurrence, I have a massive issue passing a setup where town physically cannot win without some crosskills. That many scum factions is going to make any setup swingy, but I just don't like it being impossible for town to win in some situations. Hard I could live with, impossible not so much.

[LlamaFluff]

Been playing around with:

Pass it on

12x Town
3x Mafia

Three random town players receive bags containing three random of:
*Cop
*Bodyguard
*Bulletproof
*Neighborizer
*Neighbor A/Neighbor B (note if this is rolled there are four roles in the bag)
*Vig
*Tracker
*Roleblocker
*Vanilla

One random mafia player receives a bag containing two at random of:
*Investigation Immune
*Strongman
*Ninja
*Roleblocker

All bags (town and mafia) contain the following
*Historian
*Vanilla (five of these)

~~~~~~~~~~

Each night a player must elect to use one of their abilities, and must select a player to pass the bag on to. Failing to select a player to pass to prevents use of an action and bag recipient is randomized. At the end of the night the bag will transfer to the new player. If the player receiving a bag would die, the bag goes to a random living player. If the player with a bag is lynched, the bag goes to a random player on the lynching wagon.

Historian ability allows the player using the action to see the history of the bag which includes
*Players who used bag
*Roles used each night
*Intended targets of passing

If a player has multiple bags in a single night, they may only use an action from one bag that night.

[LlamaFluff]

The 2015 Open Design Contest has opened. Have a setup you have been thinking about for a long time? This is the perfect opportunity to hammer down the details and submit it!

[LlamaFluff]

@AA - Can you run the numbers on win chances? Its probably not too difficult but I wont have time to run them myself for a few days.

[LlamaFluff]

Town: 59.69% Win chances

Which according to the calculator is them picking 10% better then random.

Essentially it's an 8v3 nightless (3 venge kills all taken out as these are certain to happen)

An 8v3 for popcorn is a weaker mafia and a stronger town then your generally given, and even with the misplacing of the gun it is probably a lot more town sided then popcorn.

And because the gun is always on the most scummy person anyway it's not like a townie person will get the gun to kill themselves on the vengeful mafia.

I see your point. And a good alternate is to make this is 18P open game because 8vs4 giving increasing mafia win chances to 50% and brought town win chances to 58%

With that said.. the updated setup is...

3 Vengeful Mafia
4 Mafia Goons

11 Townies ( Including Gun bearer)

(Mafia will have Day Talk, Night less)

Any comments on this?

Few thoughts on this

1) I don't like being able to vote because that may just make the best play once you find someone town thinks is smart get the gun and then lynch regularly using them as confirmed town in nightless
2) You need to make a wiki page with sample roles, etc before this can be ran

[LlamaFluff]

Trying to get extra opinions for a game I'm about to run!

The Odds

(10 players)
2 mafia

vs.

7 vanilla townies
1 doctor

Normally that would give each player a 20% chance of being scum, but in The Odds, different people have different chances ranging from 5% to 35%, and their chances are on public display on the front page. (If who gets what percentage is decided nonrandomly, I don't think that detracts from the game at all. Some people like a certain alignment more, or like the danger of having higher odds, and will find the game more fun if they have a say in it.) The doctor is weighted the same way, so a player with a higher percentage is much more likely to be scum or the doctor.

To figure out the scum, I'll roll two numbers between 1 and 40. Each percentage corresponds to different numbers:

• 5% - 1
  10% - 2-3
  15% - 4-6
  15% - 7-9
  20% - 10-13
  20% - 14-17
  25% - 18-22
  25% - 23-27
  30% - 28-33
  35% - 34-40

(Note that even the player most likely to be scum still has about 2 out of 3 odds of being town.)

That was the version the last time I posted it! (Although now I'm leaning toward not tying the town power role to the odds.) But I'm not sure it's enough for the town.

The current version has a town gaoler, and gives the mafia daytalk and a 1-shot factional roleblock to snipe the gaoler if it claims. People I've spoken to seem to like that one fine, but I'm worried now that that would be a pretty balanced 10-player setup even without the odds mechanic.

This game is getting near a point where it will be hitting the queue with a trial run. Any input from others would be appreciated as I am strapped for time in life until this time next week. Ether has said she will link the wiki page once she has finished working on it as well. A run of this was ran during marathon and can be found here

As this is an atypical setup, please let any questions be known so that they can be addressed on the wiki page before the game goes to a trial run.

[LlamaFluff]

Training Hospital

• 7 Town Semi-Doctors
  
• 2 Mafia Goons
  
• A player is protected from a kill if at least two semi-Doctors are protecting them. A single semi-Doctor protection does nothing by itself.
  
• As usual, the mod doesn't comment on who Doctors protected or if a kill was prevented, just on who died (if anyone) and their alignment.

I don't think this is breakable; scum can't protect people but they can choose not to shoot a person who would give them away as having not protected. Town can certainly coordinate to keep specific townies alive but that's an intended part of the setup. I believe optimal strategy for town is to direct the protects of the scummiest-looking players but to leave everyone else to make a free choice with their night action. (Optimal play for Mafia is to attempt to kill every night, although taking "long shots" that have a high chance of hitting a protection is reasonable; if Mafia don't kill, that's a 7:2 nightless, which is known to be very townsided.)

This could also work at 10:3, I think. Not 100% sure on balance in either case but it has to be close.

I like looking into this as a 13 player setup. Having 10 or more players is very useful for longevity of a game because it no longer is a micro setup, and while micro setups can be ran in the open queue, they only count as micro experience therefore are rarely if ever ran. Why wait a month to run the game in the open queue that you can run in a week in the micro queue?