NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[goodmorning]

No one except Thor really drove a lynch wagon (got many votes.) The Anen wagon looks scummy as fuck to me.
If thor is not town, where the hell was town on D1? and what were they doing?

PoE, Thor is town.

So Thor is Town because people listened to him based on his rep and there's a lazy Town this game?
And that's not really PoE...?

Then there is that your case is bad.

Hypocrisy is scummy Now?

It can be.

In that case your scum for not wanting to scum read TSO for it yesterday?

(I Showed TSO hypocrisy...)

You really didn't.

2852 I point out that Thor took very easy actions for all of D1, never taking a stance he couldn't go back on with ease

Well there was lynching PereV thats pretty hard to go back on.
Your Thor is scum because tone read, is however I take it firm non retractable position to take?
Although you claim that is the case you dont give any examples to demonstrate your point there.[/quote]
Has he gotten any flak for the Pere lynch? No, because nearly everyone else's vote on that wagon was worse.
I don't know about anyone else, but I take tone seriously. Besides that, I took several hard stances on people based on real evidence. Thor did not.
The examples come in a few posts, as you see

below

in the next post apparently.

2855 I point out that the basis for literally every single read Thor provided was "gut" and mention that the multiball thing was bullshit

For comparison: Please show me your list of stronger reads that came with reasons?
show me your filter as side by side comparison to Thor to really show me how a towny would have strong stances with reasons on D1 in this game.[/quote]
I'm not going back through my ISO as I just had to do so to point out all the posts of mine that you didn't read. Off the top of my head I was pretty clear on Csareo, TSO, dave, maybe Tier? Had some nice points on Slandaar and Fonz too. Explained And you can watch my Muffin read change in real time, even if I don't quote any specific posts of his to respond to. Besides which I made clear that if anyone had any questions about anyone then all they had to do was ask and they should receive.

I notice that in the part I snipped, you failed to quote anything I posted on anyone but Thor, a read I fully concede was not solid at the time. I notice you ignored posts like 267:

goofy is flying well below radar, dave is taking safe stances

But OK.

P-EDIT: @Garmr: Well that makes sense I guess.

[goodmorning]

HOORAY I BROKE QUOTES BAD

[AxleGreaser]

2857 Thor doesn't hide as Town.

I dont see Thor hiding in this game.
I did see you hiding D1.
Now on D2 you claim Thors reads were crap and weak sauce D1.

@Goodmorning

How come you could not and did not make that claim on D1?

2892 [...ignored by Axle...]

HOW MUCH MORE ATTENTION-GRABBING DO I HAVE TO MAKE THIS:

IS ANYONE AT ALL TOWNREADING THOR RIGHT NOW?

FUCKING EXPLAIN IT

.

I tend to ignore self agrandising extra large font post in all caps.... especially At everyone posts (they are obviously for show?)
I also chose not to answer your question at that time. 2919 (it was not important to my scum hunting)
More recently when you directly misrepresented what I said that was different matter. (as no reasonable reading of my post produced what you claim it meant)(AKA actual fakery/misrep)

3104

D1 what I had was a tone-based read.
D2, looking back, Thor didn't say anything he couldn't take back, only pushed Pere,

So you are claiming that when you were voting Thor D1, you didnt look back at his filter? But you did look back at his filter D2?

What were you doing to try and get your scum read lynched D1, if you were not looking at his filter?

Can you please stop

pretending

to have read my posts, Axle?

pretending stuck out by Axle.

Ok I wont pretend (and at no time did i pretend) i will state things explicitly
I have as matter of course read every word in every post each time I get to the thread.
Then I focus on the the parts important to me.
I leave some parts of the thread to the other townies to deal with. (You vs Thor was one of those) Other townies would work out which if either was currently being scummy.
I was currently busy chasing the guy i actually want lynched, being distracted from that is way scum protect team mates so I wasn't going to be.

You directly misrepresented my opinions.... and statements... and did so on matter of substance
You also did so by reading stuff into a post that I don't a towny reasonably could have.

on D1 you claimed it was all tone and feels and refused to provide details.
I believe on D2 all of sudden you have started being able to provide details based on D1 posts.

Yup. The magic of hindsight.

When on D1 you reread his posts the magic of hindsight was already there....
or are you saying you need him to flip Town PereV before you could fit him up for it on D2?

I did mention that I felt he had a certain whingey quality as Scum that he lacked as Town, but other than Thor I don't think anyone looked at the games I brought up.

You also did not mention how committed or strong the reasons for his reads were, and failed to provide stronger better reasoned out reads yourself.

The D1 lynch mislynched one townie who was being wagoned against another(Anen)
and you rather conveniently were not pushing your wagon with reason so it didnt go anywhere.

It was bigger than the Anen wagon for a while iirc, not that it really matters. You're saying Scum-me would fake-push a 3rd townie when two easy marks were already on the block?

Indeed it was at some times, you however wer not driving it and could easily have weaseled out of any accountability as all you had were tone reads.
Yep I am saying that scum you would push a third towny so as not to be on either of the PereV or Anen wagons.
I am especially saying that as I am strongly convinced Garmr is scum and was D1 strongly convinced TSO was good scummy lynch (his D2 status is trickier to describe)
So yes you could have good reason to not also be on the Anen mislynch. Especially with the heat it was getting and it being a low hanging fruit lynch.
However, soft pushing Thor, with reasonless suspicion was plausible place for you to hide.

I call BS, explain your case
explain why on D2 it has details and on D1, you didnt have any

Reading D1 page-by-page is a lot different than reading D1 as a whole, especially in a Large. It's really easy to get swamped in the RIGHT NOW.
My failing in case-making was a failure to look at the bigger picture.

So you are claiming to never have gone back and reread D1 except in page by page?

Not even on your biggest, scum reads ISO, the guy you claim to have been trying to get lynched?

Harking back to this for sec.

Can you please stop

pretending

to have read my posts, Axle?

How about you stop

pretending

to have actually been trying to get Thor lynched D1.
You claim not to have gone back and re read it on D1.
Then On D2 noticed hey all those reads (GM claims)dont have reasons... (or some such BS...see above)

[Izariael]

It seems to be all the rage these days. I think you were doing it BEFORE it was cool though. You're like... Patient Zero of the quote break outbreak.

[Izariael]

Dammit, ninja'ed bt the Great Wall of Whine-ah!

[goodmorning]

I also chose not to answer your question at that time. 2919 (it was not important to my scum hunting)

It was important to mine.

At any rate, Axle appears to have decided that only about half of what I posted was worth responding to and the rest was worth ignoring. As I've already responded to about half his responses, I think I'll ignore the rest.

@Izariael: I know, right? I appear literally incapable of producing quote stripes that actually work right, no matter how many times I press the Preview button beforehand. It's getting a little ridiculous.

[AxleGreaser]

No one except Thor really drove a lynch wagon (got many votes.) The Anen wagon looks scummy as fuck to me.
If thor is not town, where the hell was town on D1? and what were they doing?

PoE, Thor is town.

So Thor is Town because people listened to him based on his rep and there's a lazy Town this game?
And that's not really PoE...?

I am saying that if Thor is scum, then in fact no townies pushed any lynches to anywhere near majority in all of D1....
No players looked townier.

(yeah it a brand new way of using the term)(based on whether players pushed wagons with a towny level of commitment or not Thor was town because no one else was town)
(sorry I like twisted logic) (I dont recall a game where the only guy that was flat out pushing wagon and getting anywhere, with anything like reasons, was scum lynching town.)
(I had reasons (IMO) but got nowhere as pretty much everyone said I didnt)

Then there is that your case is bad.

Hypocrisy is scummy Now?

It can be.

So can typing the word 'the' ,scum do it all the time (I checked) (actually I didnt bother)

I note you fail to provide method for deciding when it is. (tag mess agin) (continued in next)

[AxleGreaser]

At any rate, Axle appears to have decided that only about half of what I posted was worth responding to and the rest was worth ignoring. As I've already responded to about half his responses, I think I'll ignore the rest.

BULLSHIT

as already indicated the tags messed up I stopped half way through....

[Thor665]

what the hell are YOU smoking? First you say this:

I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.

and now you're saying the

total quantity of words

is what your original statements are about?

I meant "more" He talked about him "more" he mentioned him "more".
This isn't remedial English class.
You seem to understand I meant quantity - but for some reason want to make it a quantity of a word (Pere's name and Anen's name) and find that totally legit for Muffin to state - yet when I counter that I meant all words about a *subject* suddenly I'm smoking crazy sauce?

Whut?

Also, as far as the GM thing - she appears to understand that her read is weird. i am not making it weird, I am asking her to explain a weird read - back the hell up and learn to scumhunt.

[goodmorning]

At any rate, Axle appears to have decided that only about half of what I posted was worth responding to and the rest was worth ignoring. As I've already responded to about half his responses, I think I'll ignore the rest.

BULLSHIT

as already indicated the tags messed up I stopped half way through....

I was referring to the second half, in which you omitted discussion of many of my finer points and used the word ignore at least twice before I stopped counting/caring.

I've decided that, for the sake of my sanity, I'm going to return to my D1 stance on you, which is roughly a state of not bothering to read your posts. Perhaps shot # whichever you aren't gets wise to the fact that there doesn't appear to be any real trajectory in the posts of yours I have bothered to read and you go away tonight. Either way, I can't be bothered.

[Izariael]

@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

@Muffin - no, actually, there isn't a misrep there. Look at how many thoughts were posted about Anen. Then look at the same for Pere. Then look at the vote. That reads legit to you?

Prior to #2558, instances of "pere" in Shiro's ISO: 8
instances of "anen" in Shiro's ISO for the same period: 7

Seems like a misrep to me, bud. Flow of Shiro's thoughts are evident to me, and seem reasonable for someone w a town mindset.

You're doing a really bad job selling Shiroscum.

I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.

If your statements were talking about the

total number of words used when listing thoughts about Pere and Anen

, then

this

was the time to clarify it. Not DAYS later. You were asked again and again to back up your comments (clarification of your comment would have worked just fine!) but instead of doing so, you continued to keep it open to interpretation. I don't think Muffin's interpretations were completely unfounded, as you say they are. "Degree of mention" does suggest a

qualitative

attribute rather than a

quantitative

one.

That said, I still don't see scumminess in Shiro's transitioning read on Aneninen nor do I see scum in her voteswap to Peregrine. I would rather see her vote a mild townread on Day 1 than to vote a scumread that will not gain momentum by deadline. Not everyone subscribes to your school of thought on that aspect, Thor. In a micro, I'd be more inclined to support it, but not in a large.

[Izariael]

The amount of times you tiptoed around clarifying your statement and instead said "Well I've got proof, but you show me yours first!!" was what made me supportive toward Muffin's line of questioning. There was really no reason for it beyond stalling. Then when Tier and I stated that we felt Muffin was producing the stronger arguments, you latched on right away, asking us to answer on Muffin's behalf and produce the evidence.

Yes.

Sweet - can you answer either of my questions to Muffin for him?

I'll even promise to answer Muffin's question to me in exchange for you answering for him.

Tier can also hop on this wagon - heck, if you answer first and Tier wants to sally in I'll even offer up a guess as to what Lurker I meant. It's an answer extravaganza!

@Iz - make me the offer, force me into the exchange of info. Call me on my bluff.

I really fail to see the town motivation for this reactive behavior. If it was a misunderstanding then you should have been proactive in clarifying it. Instead, as I mentioned before, it looked like you were waiting for Tier and I to comment so that you could strawman the entire discussion.

The part of your exchange with Muffin that struck me wasn't the semantics of your conversation, but rather your behaviors. I townread Muffin for his, and have nothing but scumread for yours.

[davesaz]

I don't think Muffin's interpretations were completely unfounded, as you say they are. "Degree of mention" does suggest a

qualitative

attribute rather than a

quantitative

one.

This.

But the point is not whether the original query was meant to be quantitative or qualitative, it is how the later conversation developed. Instead of jumping all over Muffin for days, Thor could have directly stated what he thought was wrong with Muffin's analysis. That is the town approach. The scum approach is to try to discredit Muffin, because if Muffin can't be discredited, then he proves Thor's case is wrong. Even better, Thor could make his own case, instead of trying to get others to make it for him. That has happened multiple times. Furthermore, his reaction to getting called on it is scummy too.

[TierShift]

I have not ever seen someone explain my thought process so clearly as iza's done here.

Really, it is thor's evasive behaviour more than anything else. First there's a non-backed up statement (anen v pere mentions), then muffin goes into the data to prove him wrong, thor says he's doing it wrongly and muffin tries yet AGAIN. Again thor tells him he's wrong, just telling him 'he has the data to back it up'. All while discrediting muffin. Bullshit.

[TierShift]

And the hissy fit thor is throwing against anyone who votes him (muffin, now iza) is horrible.

[AxleGreaser]

At any rate,

Axle appears to have decided that only about

half

of what I posted was worth responding to

and the rest was worth ignoring.

As I've already responded to about

half

his responses, I think I'll ignore the rest.

BULLSHIT

as already indicated the tags messed up I stopped

half

way through....

I was referring to the second

half

, in which you omitted discussion of

many

of my finer points and used the word ignore at least twice before I stopped counting/caring.

I've decided that, for the sake of my sanity, I'm going to return to my D1 stance on you, which is roughly a state of not bothering to read your posts. Perhaps shot # whichever you aren't gets wise to the fact that there doesn't appear to be any real trajectory in the posts of yours I have bothered to read and you go away tonight. Either way, I can't be bothered.

That is

SCUMMY BULLSHIT

So you are specifically equating me
politely indicating specific explicit points ignored with you saying casually "

As I've already responded to about half his responses, I think I'll ignore the rest.

"

and

TOTALLY

exaggerating and misrepresenting what I had done by saying

"Axle appears to have decided that

only about half

of what I posted was worth responding to "

Smurf off, (and i dont care about your alignment) for that aspect of this post.

That is however as

scummy

as pretty much anything

many

is untrue:

and

i tried hard to flag every specific one in case you wanted to claim they where where the meat of your 'case' was

(@thread the post where GM says I ignored stuff is here 3402. Go see for yourself what exaggerated false BS this is.)

[Slandaar]

Garmr: has before this point in the game claimed I am 85% likely to flip scum (2788)
swapped his vote onto and even stronger scum read 2941
So according to Garmr, he has found two scum and is > 85% confident both will flip scum (claims Boon > Axle == 85% scum)

The number is arbitrary it is just there to be representative of him being quite confident in each being scum.

Regarding calling your case bad instead of fabricated etc it literally means nothing. I really don't see anything in that at all; I have said my scumread's arguments/cases are bad in the past well I probably use the word terrible mostly but it's the same thing.

The wagon thing is actually really good.



I didn't really 'get' what you were saying prior. Kinda read it and went ugh nothing wrong with saying that and moved on. Maybe the focus on it made me pay the extra attention... Bite sized chunks work wonders.

You have my axe good sir.

VOTE: Garmr

I will respond to all this GM stuff later...

[Shiro]

Slandar...but..but.....I thought...I.....I was your .....;~;




In other news can you explain to me as well what's Axl point with the numbers

[Garmr]

So you finally seeing that shiro is town slaandar that's good. But If you have a look back didn't you notice something if you look back at thors play on a whole. Thors plays here reminds me of that game where me and him were scum buddies. His vote on shiro was bad(so were your reasoning on shiro) and the iza vote is bad.

VOTE: thor

We can deal with boon or axle tomorrow. Thor needs out first.

[AxleGreaser]

@Thread GM claims

2855 I point out that the basis for literally every single read Thor provided was "gut" and mention that the multiball thing was bullshit

I challenged

For comparison: Please show me your list of stronger reads that came with reasons?

Spoiler: my probably incomplete list of (much weaker) GM reads

518 Early thin vote for

trading vanity for vanity

Vote: Thor

maybe i'm crazy

crazy

like, i'm not exactly convinced pere's not scum but i find you quite a lot more so

wishy washy

i don't know why you think i'm going to be particularly coherent on this atm

claims of self to be incoherent
no really GM
show me your filter as side by side comparison to Thor to really show me how a towny would have strong stances with reasons on D1 in this game.

Bullshit

GM replied but messed up the quotes... (conveniently?)

I'm not going back through my ISO as I just had to do so to point out all the posts of mine that you didn't read. Off the top of my head I was pretty clear on

Csareo,

TSO,

dave

, maybe Tier? Had some nice points on Slandaar and Fonz too. Explained And you can watch my Muffin read change in real time, even if I don't quote any specific posts of his to respond to. Besides which I made clear that if anyone had any questions about anyone then all they had to do was ask and they should receive.

Spoiler: Casero

read appears here 1616 "Players who are Town: GrayFoxxx," and you do say "If you'd like an explanation of one of these and I haven't already given it, you're welcome to ask."
and dave did

Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.

Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

Not from Gray, no. With Csareo it was pretty much cumulative answers to my questions, but I'll go back through tomorrow and pull some quotes for him while I'm doing the Fonz thing for Thor.

That is not an explanation and you were asked. (thats a deniable excuse. later you can just claim you reread again and changed your mind...)
When dave pressed harder you explicitly state you cant point to the actual reasons.
Whether you do or dont choose to make some up now wont be the point, the point is on D1 you did not make any supported (by reasons) read on Csaero

Indeed Dave asked

Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.

so I take no there were no concrete things you could point to and when asked instead of offering an answer you simply fobbed him off.

That is the exact opposite of your claim

conclusion: When challenged for concrete reason for Csaero read, stated didnt have any at the time,

When challenged to show any concrete reasons for any read, even though Gm has just offered to ...
doesnt answer.

not only doesnt GM answer he does this

Yeahhhhhhh, "pretend" wasn't in there because I wanted you to explain; if I had I'd have asked you to.
"Pretend" was in there because I was trying not to get annoyed.
"Was" is in the previous sentence because now I am annoyed.

Spoiler: csaero part2 (dodging Slaandar)

2438
Not only have you not explained what part of rereading, made him town when explicitly asked.
It now transpires that this magic read appears when, you reread but don’t tell anyone and never explain even when asked?

Spoiler: TSO

1786

Goodmorning, 399 – can you explain your town read on TSO?

Like I said, for me it's mainly the overall impression I get from his posts. It's incredibly non-specific - a dash of tone here, a bit of meta there.

Yes at one point GM provides meta reason GM claims TSO is town.

As TSO was my major D1 scum read I am less than impressed.

Spoiler: Dave

IGMEO: dave

no reasons

dave is taking safe stances,

vague (non specific)

Players who may be Town: Cho, dave,

town read from where?
Well thats not strong

So basically no, GM has been very evasive about the specific reasons for his reads

HOWEVER all that would be (possibly) irrelevant

If Gm had been clear about why he wanted his D1 scum read lynched...

Of all the people a player ought be clear about it is be clear about the guy you want lynched

On that Gm has this amazingly non committal pile of hoo ha

On Thor is mostly a tone-based read as I think I've made clear. I don't expect anyone to believe/follow me and I'm fine with that (to all others who asked).

So GM claim that Thor was being wishy washy is comparatively utter bollocks.

PS(went a bit click mad I may have auto corrected some spelling in quotes (dunno))

[Garmr]

axle gm is town

[AxleGreaser]

Thors null on my reads list at the moment

but I do think that boon is genuinely scum of some kind.

So you finally seeing that shiro is town slaandar that's good. But If you have a look back didn't you notice something if you look back at thors play on a whole. Thors plays here reminds me of that game where me and him were scum buddies. His vote on shiro was bad(so were your reasoning on shiro) and the iza vote is bad.

VOTE: thor

We can deal with boon or axle tomorrow.

Thor needs out first

.

OH look my scum read claimed scum in the thread.

[Slandaar]

I don't think Shiro is town.

[Garmr]

I don't think Shiro is town.

None of the cases on shiro really stick or strike me as worse than what other players have been doing. By that logic you should of been scum reading tso's slot and it's quite obvious tso is town.

[Shiro]

@Garmr Axl just pointed a big contradiction. Care to explain why you believe a null read needs out now over people you are certain are scum ?